THE  LIBRARY  OF  THE 
UNIVERSITY  OF 
NORTH  CAROLINA 


THE  COLLECTION  OF 
NORTH  CAROLINIANA 

ENDOWED  BY 

JOHN  SPRUNT  HILL 
CLASS  OF  1889 


C326 

U58s  Part  1 


FOR  USE  ONLY  IN 

THE  NORTH  CAROLINA  COLLECTION 


Form  No.  A  -368 


Digitized  by  the  Internet  Archive 
in  2019  with  funding  from 
University  of  North  Carolina  at  Chapel  Hill 


https://archive.org/details/reporttestimonyo01unit 


46th  Congress, 
2d  Session. 


SENATE. 


j  Report 
(  No.  G93, 


REPORT  AND  TESTIMONY 

OF  THE 


SELECT  COMMITTEE 

OF  THE 

UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

TO  INVESTIGATE  THE  CAUSES  OF 


THE  REMOVAL  OF  THE  NEGROES  FROM  THE  SOUTHERN 
STATES  TO  THE  NORTHERN  STATES. 


IN  THREE  PARTS. 


PART  I  . 


WASHINGTON: 

GOVERNMENT  PRINTING  GFFICEo 

1SS0. 


COMMITTEE. 

DANIEL  W.  YOORHEES,  Chairman, 

ZEBULON  B.  VANCE, 

GEORGE  H.  PENDLETON, 
WILLIAM  WINDOM, 

HENRY  W.  BLAIR. 


60  6  $ 


4Gth  Congress,  )  SENATE. 

2 d  Session- .  f 


Eeport 
No.  G93. 


IN  THE  SENATE  OF  THE  UNITED 


STATES. 


June  1,  1880.— Ordered  to  be  printed. 


Mr.  Vance,  from  the  Committee  to  Investigate  the  Causes  which  have 
led  to  the  Emigration  of  Negroes  from  the  Southern  to  Northern 
States,  submitted  the  following 

REPORT: 


The  Select  Committee ,  appointed  by  the  Senate  to  investigate  the  causes  which 
have  led  to  the  migration  of  the  negroes  from  the  Southern  States  to  the 
Northern  States ,  having  duly  considered  the  same ,  beg  leave  to  submit  the 
following  report : 


On  the  ISth  day  of  December,  1879,  the  Senate  passed  the  following 
resolution : 

Whereas  large  numbers  of  negroes  from  the  Southern  States  are  emigrating  to  the 
Northern  States  ;  and 

Whereas  it  is  currently  alleged  that  they  are  induced  to  do  so  by  the  unjust  and 
•cruel  conduct  of  their  white  fellow-citizens  towards  them  in  the  South,  and  by  the 
denial  or  abridgment  of  their  personal  and  political  rights  and  privileges :  There 
fore, 

Be  it  resolved ,  That  a  committee  of  five  members  of  this  body  be  appointed  by  its 
presiding  officer,  whnse  duty  it  shall  be  to  investigate  the  causes  which  have  led  to 
the  aforesaid  emigration,  and  to  report  the  same  to  the  Senate;  and  said  committee 
shall  have  power  to  send  for  persons  and  papers,  and  to  sit  at  any  time. 

In  obedience  to  this  resolution  the  committee  proceeded  to  take  testi¬ 
mony  on  the  19th  day  of  January,  and  continuing  from  time  to  time  until 
153  witnesses  had  been  examined,  embracing  persons  from  the  States 
of  North  Carolina,  Georgia,  Alabama,  Mississippi,  Louisiana,  Texas, 
Missouri,  Kansas,  and  Indiana.  Much  of  this  testimony  is  of  such  a 
character  as  would  not  be  received  in  a  court  of  justice,  being  hearsay, 
the  opinions  of  witnesses,  &c.,  but  we  received  it  with  a  view  to  ascer¬ 
taining,  if  possible,  the  real  state  of  facts  in  regard  to  the  condition  of 
the  Southern  colored  people,  their  opinions  and  feelings,  and  the  feelings 
and  opinions  of  their  white  neighbors.  We  think  it  clearly  established 
from  the  testimony  that  the  following  may  be  said  to  be  the  causes 
which  have  induced  this  migration  of  the  colored  people  from  various 
portions  of  the  South  to  Northern  States,  chiefly  to  Kansas  and  Indiana: 
That  from  North  Carolina,  the  State  to  which  we  first  directed  our  at¬ 
tention,  was  undoubtedly  induced  in  a  great  degree  by  Northern  politi¬ 
cians,  and  by  negro  leaders  in  their  employ,  and  in  the  employ  of  rail¬ 
road  lines. 

Examining  particularly  into  the  condition  of  the  colored  men  in  that 
State,  it  was  disclosed  by  the  testimony  of  whites  and  blacks,  Kepub- 
licans  and  Democrats,  that  the  causes  of  discontent  among  those  people 
could  not  have  arisen  from  any  deprivation  of  their  political  rights  or 
any  hardship  in  their  condition.  A  minute  examination  into  their 


IV 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


situation  shows  that  the  average  rate  of*  wages,  according  to  the  age 
and  strength  of  the  hand  for  field  labor,  was  from  eight  to  fifteen  dollars 
per  month,  including  board,  and  house  to  live  in,  garden  and  truck 
patches  around  the  house,  fire-wood,  and  certain  other  privileges,  all 
rent  free. 

These,  added  to  the  extra  labor  which  could  be  earned  by  hands  dur¬ 
ing  the  season  of  gathering  turpentine  and  resin,  or  of*  picking  cotton, 
made  the  general  average  of  compensation  for  labor  in  that  State  quite 
equal  to  if  not  better  than  in  any  Northern  State  to  which  these  people 
were  going,  to  say  nothing  of  the  climate  of  North  Carolina,  which  was 
infinitely  better  adapted  to  them. 

The  closest  scrutiny  could  detect  no  outrage  or  violence  inflicted  upon 
their  political  rights  in  North  Carolina  for  many  years  past.  They  all 
testified  that  they  voted  freely  ;  that  their  votes  were  counted  fairly ; 
that  no  impropei  influence  whatsoever  was  exerted  over  them  ;  and  many 
were  acquiring  real  estate,  and  were  enjoying  the  same  privileges  of 
education  for  tlieir  children,  precisely,  that  the  whites  were  enjoying. 

It  was  also  disclosed  by  the  testimony  that  there  existed  aid  societies 
in  the  city  of  Washington,  in  the  city  of  Topeka,  Ivans.,  Indianapolis, 
and  elsewhere  throughout  the  West,  whose  avowed  object  was  to  fur¬ 
nish  aid  to  colored  men  migrating  to  the  West  and  North  ;  and  notwith¬ 
standing  that  the  agents  and  members  of  these  societies  generally 
disclaimed  that  it  was  tlieir  intention  to  induce  any  colored  men  to  leave 
their  homes,  but  only  to  aid  in  taking  care  of*  them  after  they  had  ar¬ 
rived,  yet  it  was  established  undeniably,  not  only  that  the  effect  of  these 
societies  and  of  the  aid  extended  by  them  operated  to  cause  the  exodus 
originally,  but  that  they  stimulated  it  directly  by  publishing  and  dis¬ 
tributing  among  the  colored  men  circulars  artfully  designed  and  calcu¬ 
lated  to  stir  up  discontent.  Every  single  member,  agent,  friend,  or  sym¬ 
pathizer  with  these  societies  and  their  purposes  were  ascertained  to 
belong  to  the  Republican  party,  and  generally  to  be  active  members 
thereof.  Some  of  the  circulars  contained  the  grossest  misrepresenta¬ 
tion  of  facts,  and  in  almost  all  cases  the  immigrants  expected  large  aid 
from  the  government  of  clothes,  or  land,  or  money,  or  free  transporta¬ 
tion,  or  something  of  that  kind.  Hundreds  of*  them,  on  given  days  at 
various  points  in  the  South,  crowded  to  the  depots  or  to  the  steamboat 
landings  upon  a  rumor  that  free  transportation  was  to  be  furnished  to 
all  who  would  go.  It  was  also  disclosed  by  the  testimony  on  the  part  of 
some  very  candid  and  intelligent  witnesses  that  their  object  in  pro¬ 
moting  this  exodus  of  the  colored  people  was  purely  political.  They 
thought  it  would  be  well  to  remove  a  sufficient  number  of  blacks  from 
the  South,  where  their  votes  could  not  be  made  to  tell,  into  close  States 
in  the  North,  and  thus  turn  the  scale  in  favor  of  the  Eepublican  party. 

Wages,  rents,  method  of  cropping  on  shares,  &e.,  were  inquired  into 
in  all  of*  the  Southern  States  mentioned,  and  the  fact  ascertained  that 
the  aggregate  was  about  the  same  as  in  North  Carolina.  In  most  of 
the  Southern  States  where  wages  were  higher  than  in  North  Carolina 
expenses  were  also  higher,  so  that  the  aggregate,  as  before  stated,  was 
about  the  same. 

One  cause  of  complaint  alleged  as  a  reason  for  this  exodus  of  the 
colored  people  from  the  South  was  their  mistreatment  in  t lie  courts  of 
justice.  Directing  our  attention  to  this  the  committee  have  ascertained 
that  in  many  of  the  districts  of  the  South  the  courts  were  under  entire 
Republican  control — judges,  prosecuting  attorneys,  sheriffs,  &e.,  and 
that  there  were  generally  as  many  complaints  from  districts  thus  con¬ 
trolled  as  there  were  from  districts  which  were  under  the  control  of  the 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


y 


Democratic  officials ;  and  that  the  whole  of  the  complaints  taken  together 
might  be  said  to  be  such  as  are  generally  made  by  the  ignorant  who  fail 
to  receive  in  courts  what  they  think  is  justice. 

Your  committee  found  no  State  or  county  in  the  South,  into  which  this 
investigation  extended,  where  colored  men  were  excluded  from  juries 
either  in  theory  or  in  practice;  they  found  no  county  or  district  in  the 
South  where  they  were  excluded,  either  in  theory  or  practice,  from  their 
share  in  the  management  of  county  affairs  and  of  the  control  of  county 
government.  On  the  contrary,  whenever  their  votes  were  in  a  majority 
we  found  that  the  officers  were  most  generally  divided  among  the  black 
people,  or  among  white  people  of  their  choice.  Frequently  we  found 
the  schools  to  be  controlled  by  them,  especially  that  portion  of  the  school 
fund  which  was  allotted  to  their  race,  and  the  complaints  which  had 
been  so  often  made  of  excessive  punishment  of  the  blacks  by  the  courts 
as  compared  with  the  whites,  upon  investigation  in  nearly  all  cases, 
proved  to  be  either  unfounded  in  fact  or  that  if  there  was  an  apparent 
excess  of  punishment  of  a  black  man  the  cause  was  ascertained  to  be  in 
the  nature  of  the  crime  with  which  he  was  charged,  or  the  attendant  cir¬ 
cumstances. 


The  educational  advantages  in  the  South,  the  committee  regret  to  say, 
were  found  to  be  insufficient,  and  far  inferior  to  those  of  most  of  the 
States  of  the  North,  but  such  as  they  were  we  found  in  every  case  that 
the  blacks  had  precisely  the  same  advantages  that  the  whites  enjoyed; 
that  the  school  fund  was  divided  among  them  according  to  numbers; 
that  their  teachers  were  quite  as  good,  and  chosen  with  as  much  care ; 
that  their  schools  existed  as  many  months  in  the  year ;  in  short,  the 
same  facilities  were  afforded  to  the  blacks  as  were  to  the  whites  in  this 
respect;  and  that  these  schools  were  generally  supported  by  the  volun¬ 
tary  taxation  imposed  by  the  legislatures  composed  ot  white  men,  levied 
upon  their  own  property  for  the  common  benefit. 

With  regard  to  political  outrages  which  have  formed  the  staple  of 
complaint  for  many  years  against  the  people  ot  the  South,  your  com¬ 
mittee  diligently  inquired,  and  have  to  report  that  they  found  nothing 
or  almost  nothing  new.  Many  old  stories  were  revived  and  dwelt  upon 
by  zealous  witnesses,  but  very  few  indeed  ventured  to  say  that  any  con¬ 
siderable  violence  or  outrage  had  been  exhibited  toward  the  colored 
people  of  the  South  within  the  last  few  years,  and  still  fewer  of  all  those 
who  testified  upon  this  subject,  and  who  were  evidently  anxious  to  make 
the  most  of  it,  testified  to  anything  as  within  their  own  knowledge.  It 
was  all  hearsay,  and  nothing  but  hearsay,  with  rare  exceptions. 

Many  of  the  witnesses  before  us  were  colored  politicians,  men  who 
make  their  living  by  politics,  and  whose  business  it  was  to  stir  up  teeling 
between  the  whites  and  blacks;  keep  alive  the  embers  of  political  hatred; 
and  were  men  of  considerable  intelligence,  so  that  what  they  tailed 
to  set  forth  of  outrages  perpetrated  against  their  race  may  be  safely 
assumed  not  to  exist.  Many,  on  the  contrary,  were  intelligent,  sober, 
industrious,  and  respectable  men,  who  testified  to  their  own  condition, 
the  amount  of  property  that  they  had  accumulated  since  their  eman¬ 
cipation,  the  comfort  in  which  they  lived,  the  respect  with  which  they 
were  regarded  by  their  white  neighbors.  These  universally  expressed 
the  opinion  that  all  colored  men  who  would  practice  equal  industry  and 
sobriety  could  have  fared  equally  well;  and  in  fact  their  own  condition 
was  ample  proof  of  the  treatment  of  the  colored  people  by  the  whites 
of  the  South,  and  of  their  opportunities  to  thrive,  it  they  were  so  de¬ 
termined.  Some  of  these  men  owned  so  much  as  a  thousand  acres  ot 
real  estate  in  the  best  portions  of  the  South;  many  of  them  had  tenants 


VI 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


of  tlieir  own,  white  men,  occupying  their  premises  and  paying  them 
rent;  and  your  committee  naturally  arrived  at  the  conclusion  that  if 
one  black  man  could  attain  to  this  degree  of  prosperity  and  respectable 
citizenship,  others  could,  having  the  same  capacity  for  business  and 
practicing  the  same  sobriety  and  industry. 

Your  committee  also  directed  their  attention  to  the  complaints  fre¬ 
quently  made  with  regard  to  the  laws  passed  in  various  States  of  the 
South  relating  to  landlord  and  tenant,  and  to  the  system  adopted  by 
many  planters  for  furnishing  their  tenants  and  laborers  with  supplies. 
We  found,  upon  investigation  of  these  laws,  and  of  the  witnesses  in  re¬ 
lation  to  their  operation,  that  as  a  general  rule  they  were  urgently  called 
for  by  the  circumstances  in  which  the  South  found  itself  after  the  war. 
The  universal  adoption  of  homestead  and  personal  property  exemption 
laws  deprived  poor  men  of‘  credit,  and  the  landlord  class,  for  its  own 
protection,  procured  the  passage  of  these  laws  giving  them  a  lien  upon 
the  crop  made  by  the  tenant  until  his  rents  and  his  supplies  furnished 
for  the  subsistence  of  the  tenant  and  his  family  had  been  paid  and  dis¬ 
charged;  and  while  upon  the  surface  these  laws  appeared  to  be  hard 
and  in  favor  of  the  landlord,  they  were,  as  was  actually  testified  by  many 
intelligent  witnesses,  quite  as  much  or  more  in  favor  of  the  tenant,  as  it 
enabled  him  to  obtain  credit,  to  subsist  himself  and  his  family,  and  to 
make  a  crop  without  any  means  whatsoever  but  his  own  labor.  It  was 
alleged  also  that  in  many  instances  landlords,  or  if  not  landlords  then 
merchants,  would  establish  country  stores  for  furnishing  supplies  to 
laborers  and  tenants,  and  the  laborer,  having  no  money  to  go  elsewhere 
or  take  the  natural  advantage  of  competition,  was  forced  to  buy  at  these 
stores  at  exorbitant  prices. 

Your  committee  regret  to  say  that  they  found  it  to  be  frequently  the 
case  that  designing  men,  or  bad  and  dishonest  men,  would  take  advan¬ 
tage  of  the  ignorance  or  necessity  of  the  negroes  to  obtain  these  exorbi¬ 
tant  prices;  but  at  the  same  time  your  committee  is  not  aware  of  any 
spot  on  earth  where  the  cunning  and  the  unscrupulous  do  not  take  ad¬ 
vantage  of  the  ignorant  ;  and  cannot  regard  it  as  a  sufficient  cause  for 
these  black  people  leaving  their  homes  and  going  into  distant  States 
and  among  strangers  unless  they  had  a  proper  assurance  that  the  States 
to  which  they  were  going  contained  no  dishonest  men,  or  men  who  would 
take  such  advantage  of  them.  Your  committee  feel  bound  to  say,  how¬ 
ever,  injustice  to  the  planters  of  the  South,  that  this  abuse  is  not  at  all 
general  nor  frequent;  and  that  as  a  general  rule  while  exorbitant  prices 
are  exacted  sometimes  from  men  in  the  situation  of  the  blacks,  yet  the 
excuse  for  it  is  the  risk  which  planter  and  merchant  run.  Should  a  bad 
crop  year  come,  should  the  Army  worm  devour  the  cotton,  or  any  other 
calamity  come  upon  the  crop,  the  landlord  is  without  his  rent,  the  store¬ 
keeper  is  without  his  pay,  and  worse  than  all  the  laborer  is  without  any 
means  of  subsistence  for  the  next  year.  It  is  hoped  and  believed  that 
when  the  heretofore  disturbed  condition  of  the  people  of  the  South  set¬ 
tles  down  into  regularity  and  order,  the  natural  laws  of  trade  and  com¬ 
petition  will  assert  themselves  and  this  evil  will  be  to  a  great  extent 
remedied,  whilst  the  diffusion  of  education  among  the  colored  people 
v  ill  enable  them  to  keep  their  own  accounts  and  hold  a  check  upon  those 
who  would  act  dishonestly  towards  them. 

On  the  whole,  your  committee  express  the  positive  opinion  that  the 
condition  of  the  colored  people  of  the  South  is  not  only  as  good  as 
could  have  been  reasonably  expected,  but  is  better  than  if  large  com¬ 
munities  were  transferred  to  a  colder  and  more  inhospitable  climate 
tin  list  into  competition  w  ith  a  different  system  of  labor,  among  strangers 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


VII 


who  are  not  accustomed  to  them,  their  ways,  habits  of  thought  and  ac¬ 
tion,  their  idiosyncrasies,  and  their  feelings.  While  a  gradual  migra¬ 
tion,  such  as  circumstances  dictate  among  the  white  races,  might  benefit 
the  individual  black  man  and  his  family  as  it  does  those  of  the  whites 
we  cannot  but  regard  this  wholesale  attempt  to  transfer  a  people  with¬ 
out  means  and  without  intelligence,  from  the  homes  of  their  nativity  in 
this  manner,  as  injurious  to  the  people  of  the  South,  injurious  to' the 
people  and  the  labor-system  of  the  State  where  they  go,  and,  more  than 
all,  injurious  to  the  last  degree  to  the  black  people  themselves.  That 
there  is  much  in  their  condition  to  be  deplored  in  the  South  no  one 
will  deny ;  that  that  condition  is  gradually  and  steadily  improving  in 
every  respect  is  equally  true.  That  there' have  been  clashings  of  the 
races  in  the  South,  socially  and  politically,  is  never  to  be  denied  nor  to 
be  wondered  at ;  but  when  we  come  to  consider  the  method  in  which 


these  people  were  freed,  as  the  result  of  a  bitter  and  desolating  civil 
war ;  and  that  for  purposes  of  party  politics  these  incompetent,  ignorant, 
landless,  homeless  people,  without  any  qualifications  of  citizenship, 
without  any  of  the  ties  of  property  or  the  obligations  of  education, 
were  suddenly  thrown  into  political  power,  and  the  effort  was  made  not 
only  to  place  them  upon  an  equality  with  their  late  masters,  but  to  ab¬ 
solutely  place  them  in  front  and  hold  them  there  by  legislation,  by  mili¬ 
tary  violence,  and  by  every  other  means  that  could  possibly  be  resorted 
to;  when  we  consider  these  things,  no  philosophical  mind  can  behold 
their  present  condition,  and  the  present  comparative  state  of  peace  and 
amity  between  the  two  races,  without  wonder  that  their  condition  is  as 
good  as  it  is. 

No  man  can  behold  this  extraordinary  spectacle  of  two  people  at¬ 
tempting  to  reconcile  themselves  in  spite  of  the  interference  of  out¬ 
siders,  and  to  live  in  harmony,  to  promote  each  other’s  prosperity  in 
spite  of  the  bitter  animosities  which  the  sudden  elevation  of  the  one 
has  engendered,  without  the  liveliest  hope  that  if  left  to  themselves  the 
condition  of  the  former  subject  race  will  still  more  rapidly  improve,  and 
that  the  best  results  may  be  reasonably  and  fairly  expected. 

Your  committee  is  further  of  the  opinion  that  all  the  attempts  of  legis¬ 
lation;  that  all  the  inflammatory  appeals  of  politicians  upon  the  stump 
and  through  the  newspapers;  that  the  wild  and  misdirected  philan¬ 
thropy  of  certain  classes  of  our  citizens;  that  these  aid  societies,  and 
all  other  of  the  influences  which  are  so  industriously  brought  to  bear  to 
disturb  the  equanimity  of  the  colored  people  of  the  South  and  to  make 
them  discontented  with  their  position,  are  doing  them  a  positive  and 
almost  incalculable  injury,  to  say  nothing  of  pecuniary  losses  which 
have  thus  been  inflicted  upon  Southern  communities. 

Your  committee  is  further  of  opinion  that  Congress  having  enacted 
all  the  legislation  for  the  benefit  of  the  colored  people  of  the  South 
which  under  the  Constitution  it  can  enact,  and  having  seen  that  all  the 
States  of  the  South  have  done  the  same;  that  by  the  Constitution  oi 
the  United  States  and  the  constitutions  of  the  various  States  these 
peopleware  placed  upon  a  footing  of  perfect  equality  before  the  law,  and 
given  the  chance  to  work  out  their  own  civilization  and  improvement, 
any  further  attempts  at  legislation  or  agitation  of  the  subject  will  but 
excite  in  them  hopes  of  exterior  aid  that  will  be  disappointing  to  them, 
and  will  prevent  them  from  working  out  diligently  and  with  care  their 
own  salvation;  that  the  sooner  they  are  taught  to  depend  upon  them¬ 
selves,  the  sooner  they  will  learn  to  take  care  ot  themselves;  the  sooner 
they  are  taught  to  know  that  their  true  interest  is  promoted  In  culti- 


'VIII 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


vating  the  friendship  of  their  white  neighbors  instead  of  their  enmity, 
the  sooner  they  will  gain  that  friendship  5  and  that  friendship  and  har¬ 
mony  once  fully  attained,  there  is  nothing  to  bar  the  way  to  their  speedy 
•civilization  and  advancement  in  wealth  and  prosperity,  except  such  as 
binder  all  people  in  that  great  work. 

]).  W.  YOOBIIEES. 

Z.  B.  YANCE. 

GEO.  H.  PENDLETON. 


Mr.  Windom,  from  the  Committee  to  Investigate  the  Causes  which  have 
led  to  the  Emigration  of  Negroes  from  the  Southern  to  the  Northern 
States,  submitted  the  following 

REPORT  OF  THE  MINORITY. 


The  under  signed ,  a  minority  of  the  committee  appointed-  under  resolution  of 
the  Senate  of  December  15,  1879,  to  investigate  the  causes  which  have  led 
to  the  emigration  of  negroes  from  the  Southern  to  the  Northern  States , 
submit  the  following  report: 


In  the  month  of  December  last  a  few  hundred  colored  men,  women, 
and  children,  discontented  with  their  condition  in  North  Carolina,  and 
hoping  to  improve  it,  were  emigrating  to  Indiana. 

This  movement,  though  utterly  insignificant  in  comparison  with  the 
vastly  greater  numbers  which  were  moving  from  other  Southern  States 
into  Kansas,  seemed  to  be  considered  of  very  much  more  importance,  in 
certain  quarters,  on  account  of  its  alleged  political  purposes  and  bearing. 
The  theory  upon  which  the  investigation  was  asked  was  that  the  emi¬ 
gration  into  the  State  of  Indiana  was  the  result  of  a  conspiracy  on  the 
part  of  Northern  leaders  of  the  Republican  party  to  colonize  that  State 
with  negroes  for  political  purposes.  The  utter  absurdity  of  this  theory 
should  have  been  apparent  to  everybody,  for  if  the  Republican  party,  or 
its  leaders,  proposed  to  import  negroes  into  Indiana  for  political  pur¬ 
poses,  why  take  them  from  North  Carolina?  Why  import  them  from  a 
State  where  the  Republicans  hope  and  expect  to  carry  the  election, 
when  there  were  thousands  upon  thousands  ready  and  anxious  to  come 
from  States  certainly  Democratic.  Why  transport  them  by  rail  at  heavy 
expense  half  way  across  the  continent  when  they  could  have  taken  them 
from  Kentucky  without  any  expense,  or  brought  them  up  the  Mississippi 
River  by  steamers  at  merely  nominal  cost?  Why  send  twenty-five 
thousand  to  Kansas  to  swell  her  40,000  Republican  majority,  and  only 
seven  or  eight  hundred  to  Indiana?  These  considerations  brand  with 
falsehood  and  folly  the  charge  that  the  exodus  was  a  political  movement 
induced  by  Northern  partisan  leaders.  And  yet  to  prove  this  absurd 
proposition  the  committee  devoted  six  months  of  hard  and  fruitless 
labor,  during  which  they  examined  one  hundred  and  fifty-nine  witnesses, 
selected  from  all  parts  of  the  country,  mainly  with  reference  to  their 
supposed  readiness  to  prove  said  theory,  expended  over  $30,000,  and 
filled  three  large  volumes  of  testimony. 

The  undersigned  feel  themselves  authorized  to  say  that  there  is  no 
evidence  whatever  even  tending  to  sustain  the  charge  that  the  Repub¬ 
lican  party,  or  any  of  its  leaders,  have  been  instrumental,  either  directly 
or  indirectly,  in  aiding  or  encouraging  these  people  to  come  Irom  their 
homes  in  the  South  to  any  of  the  Northern  States.  A  good  deal  ol  com- 


party.  Upon  inquiry,  however,  it  was  ascertained  that  their  purposes 


—  -:) 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


were  purely  charitable  and  had  no  connection  whatever  with  any  political 
motive  or  movement.  They  were  composed  almost  wholly  of  colored 
people,  and  were  brought  into  existence  solely  to  afford  temporary 
relief  to  the  destitute  and  suffering  emigrants  who  had  already  come 
into  the  Northern  and  Western  States. 

In  the  spring  of  1879  thousands  of  colored  people,  unable  longer  to 
endure  the  intolerable  hardships,  injustice,  and  suffering  indicted  upon 
them  by  a  class  of  Democrats  in  the  South,  had,  in  utter  despair,  fled 
panic-stricken  from  their  homes  and  sought  protection  among  strangers- 
in  a  strange  land.  Homeless,  penniless,  and  in  rags,  these  poor  people 
were  thronging  the  wharves  of  Saint  Louis,  crowding  the  steamers  on 
the  Mississippi  River,  and  in  pitiable  destitution  throwing  themselves 
upon  the  charity  of  Kansas.  Thousands  more  were  congregating  along 
the  banks  of  the  Mississippi  River,  hailing  the  passing  steamers,  and 
imploring  them  for  a  passage  to  the  land  of  freedom,  where  the  rights 
of  citizens  are  respected  and  honest  toil  rewarded  by  honest  compensa¬ 
tion.  The  newspapers  were  tilled  with  accounts  of  their  destitution, 
and  the  very  air  was  burdened  with  the  cry  of  distress  from  a  class  of 
American  citizens  flying  from  persecutions  which  they  could  no  longer 
endure.  Their  piteous  tales  of  outrage,  suffering  and  wrong  touched 
the  hearts  of  the  more  fortunate  members  of  their  race  in  the  North  and 
West,  and  aid  societies,  designed  to  afford  temporary  relief,  and  com¬ 
posed  largely,  almost  wholly,  of  colored  people,  were  organized  in  Wash¬ 
ington,  Saint  Louis,  Topeka,  and  in  various  other  places.  That  they  were 
organized  to  induce  migration  for  political  purposes,  or  to  aid  or  encour¬ 
age  these  people  to  leave  their  homes  for  any  purpose,  or  that  they 
ever  contributed  one  dollar  to  that  end,  is  utterly  untrue,  and  there  is 
absolutely  nothing  in  the  testimony  to  sustain  such  a  charge.  Their  pur¬ 
poses  and  objects  were  purely  charitable.  They  found  a  race  of  wretched, 
miserable  people  flying  from  oppression  and  wrong,  and  they  sought  to 
relieve  their  distress.  The  refugees  were  hungry,  and  they  fed  them  ; 
in  rags,  and  they  clothed  them ;  homeless  and  they  sheltered  them;  des¬ 
titute,  and  they  found  employment  for  them — only  this  and  nothing 
more. 

The  real  origin  of  the  exodus  movement  and  the  organizations  at  the 
South  which  have  promoted  it  are  very  clearly  stated  by  the  witnesses 
who  have  been  most  active  in  regard  to  it. 

Henry  Adams,  of  Shreveport,  Louisiana,  an  uneducated  colored  la¬ 
borer,  but  a  man  of  very  unusual  natural  abilities,  and,  so  far  as  the 
committee  could  learn,  entirely  reliable  and  truthful,  states  that  he  en¬ 
tered  the  United  States  Army  in  18GG  and  remained  in  it  until  18G9 ; 
that  when  he  left  the  Army  he  returned  to  his  former  home  at  Shreve¬ 
port,  and,  finding  the  condition  of  his  race  intolerable,  he  and  a  number 
of  other  men  who  had  also  been  in  the  Army  set  themselves  to  work  to 
better  the  condition  of  their  people. 

In  1870 — 

He  says — 

a  parcel  of  us  got  together  and  said  we  would  organize  ourselves  into  a  committee 
and  look  into  affairs  and  see  the  true  condition  of  our  race,  to  see  whether  it  was  pos¬ 
sible  we  could  stay  under  a  people  who  held  ns  in  bondage  or  not. 

That  committee  increased  until  it  numbered  about  five  hundred,  and 
Mr.  Adams  says : 

Some  of  the  members  of  the  committee  was  ordered  by  the  committee  to  go  into 
every  State  in  the  South  where  we  had  been  slaves,  and  post  one  another  from  time 
to  time  about  the  true  condition  of  our  race,  and  nothing  but  the  truth. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


XI 


In  answer  to  the  question  whether  they  traveled  over  various  States 
he  said : 

Yes,  sir  ;  and  we  worked,  some  of  ns,  worked  our  way  from  place  to  place  and  went 
'om  State  to  State  and  worked — some  of  them  did — amongst  our  people,  in  the  fields 
verywliere,  to  see  wliat  sort  of  a  living  0ur  people  lived— whether  we  could  live  in 


We  continued  that  on 


from 
e\ 

the  South  amongst  the  people  that  held  us  as*  slaves  or  not 

till  1874. 

Every  one  paid  his  own  expenses,  except  the  one  we  sent  to  Louisiana  and  Missis¬ 
sippi.  We  took  money  out  of  our  pockets  and  sent  him,  and  said  to  him  you  must  now 
go  to  work.  You  can’t  find  out  anything  till  you  get  amongst  them.  You  can  talk  as 
much  as  you  please,  but  you  have  got  to  go  right  into  the  field  and  work  with  them 
and  sleep  with  them  to  know  all  about  them. 

I  think  about  one  hundred  or  one  hundred  and  fifty  went  from  one  place  or  another. 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  the  information  that  they  gave  you  ? — A.  Well  the 
character  of  the  information  they  brought  to  us  was  very  bad,  sir. 

*  *  *  *  *  #  * 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  of  these  reports  that  you  got  from  members  of  your  com¬ 
mittee?— A.  Yes,  sir;  they  said  in  several  parts  where  they  was  that  the  land  rent 
was  still  higher  there  in  that  part  of  the  country  than  it  was  where  we  first  organized 
it,  and  the  people  was  still  being  whipped,  some  of  them,  by  the  old  owners,  the  men 
that  had  owned  them  as  slaves,  and  some  of  them  was  being  cheated  out  of  their 
crops  just  the  same  as  they  was  there. 

Q.  Was  anything  said  about  their  personal  and  political  rights  in  these  reports  as  to 
how  they  were  treated  ? — A.  Yes ;  some  of  them  stated  that  in  some  parts  of  the  country 
where  they  voted  they  would  be  shot.  Some  of  them  stated  that  if  they  voted  the 
Democratic  ticket  they  would  not  be  injured. 

Q.  Now,  let  us  understand  more  distinctly,  before  we  go  any  furl  her,  the  kind  of  peo¬ 
ple  who  composed  that  association.  The  committee,  as  l  understand  you,  was  com¬ 
posed  entirely  of  laboring  people? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  it  include  any  politicians  of  either  color,  white  or  black  ? — A.  Nopoliticianers 
didn’t  belong  to  it,  because  we  didn’t  allow  them  to  know  nothing  about  it,  because 
we  was  afraid  that  if  we  allowed  the  colored  politiciauer  to  belong  to  it  he  would  tell 
it  to  the  Republican  politicianers,  and  from  that  the  men  that  was  doing  all  this  to  us 

would  get  hold  of  it  too,  and  then  get  after  us. 

*  *  *  *  *  *■  * 

Q.  About  what  time  did  you  lose  all  hope  and  confidence  that  your  condition  could 
be  tolerable  in  the  Southern  States  ? — A.  Well,  we  never  lost  all  hopes  in  the  world  till 
1877. 

Q.  Why  did  you  lose  all  hope  in  that  year? — A.  Well,  we  found  ourselves  in  such 
condition  that  we  looked  around  and  we  seed  that  there  was  no  way  on  earth,  it  seemed, 
that  we  could  better  our  condition  there,  and  we  discussed  that  thoroughly  in  our 
organization  in  May.  We  said  that  the  whole  South — every  State  in  the  South — had 
got  into  the  hands  of  the  veryT  men  that  held  us  slaves — from  one  thing  to  another — 
and  we  thought  that  the  men  that  held  us  slaves  was  holding  the  reins  of  government 
over  our  heads  in  every  respect  almost,  even  the  constable  up  to  the  governor.  AVe 
felt  we  had  almost  as  well  be  slaves  under  these  men.  In  regard  to  the  whole  matter 
that  was  discussed  it  came  up  in  every  council.  Then  we  said  there  was  no  hope  for 
us  and  we  had  better  go. 

Q.  You  say,  then,  that  in  1877  you  lost  all  hope  of  being  able  to  remain  in  the  South, 
and  you  began  to  think  of  moving  somewhere  else  ? — A.  Yes;  we  said  we  was  going  if 
we  had  to  run  away  and  go  into  the  woods. 

Q.  About  how  many  did  this  committee  consist  of  before  you  organized  your  coun¬ 
cil?  Give  us  the  number  as  near  as  you  can  tell. — A.  As  many  as  five  hundred  in  all. 

Q.  The  committee,  do  you  mean? — A.  Yes;  the  committee  has  been  that  large. 

Q.  What  was  the  largest  number  reached  by  your  colonization  council,  in  your  best 
judgment? — A.  AVell,  it  is*  not  exactly  five  hundred  men  belonging  to  the  council  that 
we  have  in  our  council,  but  they”  all  agreed  to  go  with  us  and  enroll  their  names  with 
us  from  time  to  time,  so  that  they  have  now  got  at  this  time  ninety-eight  thousand 
names  enrolled. 

Q.  Then  through  that  council,  as  sort  of  subscribers  to  its  purpose  and  acts  and  for 
carrying  out  its  objects,  there  were  ninety-eight  thousand  names  ? — A.  Tes;  ninety- 
eight  thousand  names  enrolled. 

Q.  In  what  parts  of  the  country  were  these  ninety-eight  thousand  people  spattered  ? 
— A.  Well,  some  in  Louisiana — the  majority  of  them  in  Louisiana — and  some  in  Texas, 
and  some  in  Arkansas.  AATe  joins  Arkansas. 

Q.  Were  there  any*  in  Mississippi  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  a  few  in  Mississippi. 

Q.  And  a  few  in  Alabama? — A.  Yes,  sir;  a  few  in  Alabama,  too. 

Q.  Did  the  organization  extend  at  all  into  other  States  farther  away  ? — A.  0,  yes,  sir. 


XII 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Have  you  members  in  all  the  Southern  States? — A.  Not  in  every  one,  but  in  a 
great  many  of  the  others. 

Q.  Are  these  members  of  that  colonization  council  in  communication  as  to  the  con¬ 
dition  of  your  race,  and  as  to  the  best  thing  to  be  done  to  alleviate  their  troubles  ? — 
A.  O,  yes. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  inducements  being  held  out  from  politicians  of  the 
North,  or  from  politicians  anywhere  else,  to  induce  these  people  to  leave  their  section 
of  country  and  go  into  the  Northern  or  Western  States  ? — A.  There  is  nobody  has  writ¬ 
ten  letters  of  that  kind,  individually — uot  no  white  persons,  I  know,  not  to  me,  to  in¬ 
duce  anybody  to  come. 

Q.  Well,  to  any  of  the  other  members  of  your  council  ? — A.  No,  I  don’t  think  to  any 
of  the  members.  If  they  have,  they  haven’t  said  nothing  to  me  about  it. 

It  appears  also  from  the  evidence  of  Samuel  L.  Perry,  of  North  Caro¬ 
lina,  a  colored  man,  who  accompanied  most  of  the  emigrants  from  that 
State  to  Indiana,  and  who  had  more  to  do  with  the  exodus  from  that 
quarter  than  any  other  man,  that  the  movement  had  its  origin  as  far 
back  as  1872,  as  the  following  questions  and  answers  will  show : 


Q.  You  have  heard  a  good  deal  of  this  testimony  with  reference  to  this  exodus  from 
North  Carolina.  Now  begin  at  the  beginning  and  tell  us  all  you  know  about  it. — A. 
Well,  the  beginning,  I  suppose,  was  in  this  way  :  The  first  idea  or  the  first  thing  was, 
we  used  to  have  little  meetings  to  talk  over  these  matters.  In  1872  we  first  received 
some  circulars  or  pamphlets  from  O.  F.  Davis,  of  Omaha,  Nebraska. 

Q.  In  1872? — A.  Yes,  sir;  in  1872 — giving  a  description  of  government  lands  and 
railroads  that  could  be  got  cheap  ;  and  we  held  little  meetings  then  ;  that  is,  we  would 
meet  and  talk  about  it  Sunday  evenings — that  is,  the  laboring  class  of  our  people — the 
only  ones  I  knew  anything  about ;  I  had  not  much  to  do  with  the  big  professional  ne¬ 
groes,  the  rich  men.  I  did  not  associate  with  them  much,  but  1  got  among  the  work¬ 
ingmen,  and  they  would  take  these  pamphlets  and  read  them  over. 


Mr.  Perry  says  that  the  feeling  in  favor  of  migrating  subsided  some¬ 
what,  but  sprung  up  again  in  1876.  From  that  time  down  to  1879  there 
were  frequent  consultations  upon  the  subject,  much  dissatisfaction  ex¬ 
pressed  respecting  their  condition,  and  a  desire  to  emigrate  to  some  part 
of  the  West.  He  says  about  u  that  time  L  was  a  subscriber  to  the  New 
York  Herald,  and  from  an  article  in  that  paper  the  report  was  that  the 
people  were  going  to  Kansas,  and  we  thought  we  could  go  to  Kansas  too  ; 
that  we  could  get  a  colony  to  go  West.  That  was  last  spring.  We  came 
back  and  formed  ourselves  into  a  colony  of  some  hundred  men.”  They 
did  not,  however,  begin  their  westward  movements  until  the  fall  of  1879, 
when  it  being  ascertained  by  the  railroad  companies  that  a  considerable 
number  of  people  were  proposing  to  migrate  from  North  Carolina  to  the 
West,  several  railroad  companies,  notably  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio, 
offered  to  certain  active  and  influential  colored  men  $1  per  head  for  all 


when  an  organization  of  colored  people,  called  the  State  Labor  Union, 
delegated  Hon.  George  F.  Marlow  to  visit  Kansas,  and  other  parts  of 
the  West,  for  the  purpose  of  examining  that  country  and  reporting  back 
to  a  future  convention  his  views  as  to  the  expediency  of  removing  thereto. 
A  convention  of  colored  people  was  held  again  in  1872,  at  which  Mr. 
Marlow  made  the  following  glowing  report  of  the  condition  of  things  in 
Kansas  and  the  inducements  that  State  offered  to  the  colored  people, 
lie  said: 


In  August,  1871,  beiug  delegated  by  your  president  for  tlie  purpose,  I  visited  the 
S.Late  of  Kansas,  and  here  give  the  results  of  my  observations,  briefiy  stated. 

It  is  a  new  State,  and  as  such  possesses  many  advantages  over  the  old. 

It  is  much  more  productive  than  most  other  States. 

What  is  raised  yields  more  profit  than  elsewhere,  as  it  is  raised  at  less  expense. 

The  weather  and  roads  enable  you  to  do  more  work  here  than  elsewhere. 

The  climate  is  mild  and  pleasant. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


XIII 


Winters  short  and  require  little  food  for  stock. 

Fine  grazing  country  ;  stock  can  be  grazed  all  winter. 

The  population  is  enterprising,  towns  and  villages  spring  up  rapidly,  and  great 
profits  arise  from  all  investments. 

Climate  dry,  and  land  free  from  swamps. 

The  money  paid  to  doctors  in  less  healthy  regions  can  here  he  used  to  build  up  a 
house. 

People  quiet  and  orderly,  schools  and  churches  to  be  found  in  every  neighborhood, 
and  ample  provision  for  free  schools  is  made  by  the  State. 

Money  plenty,  and  what  you  raise  commands  a  good  price. 

Fruits  of  all  kinds  easily  grown  and  sold  at  large  profits. 

Railroads  are  being  built  in  every  direction. 

The  country  is  well  watered. 

Salt  and  coal  are  plentiful. 

It  is  within  the  reach  of  every  man,  no  matter  how  poor,  to  have  a  home  in  Kansas. 
The  best  lands  are  to  be  had  at  from  $2  to  $10  an  acre,  on  time.  The  different  rail¬ 
roads  own  large  tracts  of  land,  and  offer  liberal  inducements  to  emigrants.  You  can 
get  good  land  in  some  places  for  $1.25  an  acre.  The  country  is  mostly  open  prairie, 
level,  with  deep,  rich  soil,  producing  from  forty  to  one  hundred  bushels  of  corn  and 
wheat  to  the  acre.  The  corn  grows  about  eight  or  nine  feet  high,  and  I  never  saw 
better  fruit  anywhere  than  there. 

The  report  was  adopted. 

The  feeling  of  the  colored  people  in  that  State  in  1872  was  well  ex¬ 
pressed  by  Hon.  Robert  H.  Knox,  of  Montgomery,  a  prominent  colored 
citizen,  who,  in  addressing  the  convention,  spoke  as  follows: 


I  have  listened  with  great  attention  to  the  report  of  the  commissioner  appointed  by 
authority  of  the  State  Labor  Union  to  visit  Kansas,  and  while  I  own  the  inducements 
held  out  to  the  laboring  man  in  that  far-off  State  are  much  greater  than  those  enjoyed 
by  our  State,  I  yet  would  say  let  us  rest  here  awhile  longer  ;  let  us  trust  in  God,  the 
President,  and  Congress  to  give  us  what  is  most  needed  here,  personal  security  to  the 
laboring  masses,  the  suppression  of  violence,  disorder,  and  kukluxism,  the  protection 
which  the  Constitution  and  laws  of  the  United  States  guarantee,  and  to  which  as  citi¬ 
zens  and  men  we  are  entitled.  Failing  in  these,  it  is  time  then,  I  repeat,  to  desert  the 
State  and  seek  homes  elsewhere  where  there  may  be  the  fruition  of  hopes  inaugurated 
when  by  the  hand  of  Providence  the  shackles  were  stricken  from  the  limbs  of  four 
million  men,  where  there  may  be  enjoyed  in  peace  and  happiness  by  your  own  fireside 
the  earnings  of  your  daily  toil. 


Benjamin  Singleton,  an  aged  colored  man,  now  residing  in  Kansas, 
swears  that  he  began  the  work  of  inducing  his  race  to  migrate  to  that 
State  as  early  as  1809,  and  that  he  has  brought  mainly  from  Tennessee, 
and  located  in  two  colonies — one  in  Cherokee  County,  and  another  in 
Lyons  County,  Kansas — a  total  of  7,432  colored  people.  The  old  man 
spoke  in  the  most  touching  manner  of  the  sufferings  and  wrongs  of  liis 
people  in  the  South,  and  in  the  most  glowing  terms  of  their  condition  in 
their  new  homes  ;  and  when  asked  as  to  who  originated  the  movement, 
he  proudly  asserted,  u  I  am  the  father  of  the  exodus.77  lie  said  that 
during  these  years  since  he  began  the  movement  he  has  paid  from  his 
own  pocket  over  $000  for  circulars,  which  he  has  caused  to  be  printed 
and  circulated  all  over  the  Southern  States,  advising  all  who  can  pay 
their  way  to  come  to  Kansas.  In  these  circulars  he  advised  the  colored 
people  of  the  advantages  of  living  in  a  free  State,  and  told  them  how 
well  the  emigrants  whom  he  had  taken  there  were  getting  on.  He  says 
that  the  emigrants  whom  he  has  taken  to  Kansas  are  happy  and  doing 
well.  The  old  man  insists  with  great  enthusiasm  that  lie  is  the  a  whole 
cause  of  the  Kansas  immigration,77  and  is  very  proud  of  his  achievement. 

Here,  then,  we  have  conclusive  proof  from  the  negroes  themselves  that 
they  have  been  preparing  for  this  movement  for  many  years.  Organi¬ 
zations  to  this  end  have  existed  in  many  States,  and  the  agents  of  such 
organizations  have  traveled  throughout  the  South.  One  of  these  organi¬ 
zations  alone  kept  one  hundred  and  fifty  men  in  the  field  for  years,  tia\  - 
eling  among  their  brethren  and  secretly  discussing  this  among  other 


XIV 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


means  of  relief.  As  stated  by  Adams  and  Perry,  politicians  were  ex¬ 
cluded,  and  the  movement  was  confined  wholly  to  the  working  classes. 

The  movement  has  doubtless  been  somewhat  stimulated  by  circulars 
from  railroad  companies  and  State  emigration  societies  which  have  found 
their  way  into  the  South,  but  these  have  had  comparatively  little  effect. 
The  following  specimen  of  these  emigration  documents,  which  was  gotten 
up  and  circulated  by  Indiana  Democrats,  printed  at  a  Democratic  print¬ 
ing  office,  and  written  by  a  Democrat,  in  our  judgment  appeals  more 
strongly  to  the  imagination  and  wants  of  the  negro  than  any  we  have 
been  able  to  find: 

In  every  count)/  of  the  State  there  is  an  asylum  where  those  who  are  unable  to  work  and  have 
no  means  of  support  are  cared  for  at  the  public  expense. 

Laborers  who  work  by  the  month  or  by  the  year  make  their  own  contract  with  the 
employer,  and  all  disputes  subsequently  arising  are  settled  by  legal  processes  in  the 
proper  courts,  everybody  being  equal  before  the  law  in  Indiana.  The  price  of  farm  labor 
lias  varied  considerably  in  the  last  t  wenty  years.  About  .$16  per  month  may  be  assumed 
as  about  the  average  per  month ,  and  this  is  understood  to  include  board,  and  lodging  at  the 
farm-house.  This  amount  is  paid  in  current  money  at  the  end  of  each  month ,  unless  other¬ 
wise  stipulated  iu  the  contract.  Occasionally  a  tenement  house  is  found  on  the  larger 
farms,  where  a  laborer  lives  with  his  family,  and  either  rents  a  portion  of  the  farm  or 
cultivates  it  on  special  contract  with  the  landlord.  With  us  there  is  no  class  of  laborers 
as  such.  The  young  man  who  to-day  may  be  a  hired  laborer  at  monthly  wages,  may  in  Jive 
years  from  now  be  himself  a  proprietor ,  owning  the  soil  he  cultivates  and  paying  wages  to 
laborers.  The  upward  road  is  open  to  all,  and  its  highest  elevation  is  attainable  by  in¬ 
dustry,  economy,  and  perseverance. 

Sixteen  dollars  per  month,  with  board!  Everybody  equal  before  the 
law!  No  class  of  laborers  as  such !  The  hired  man  of  to-day  himself 
the  owner  of  a  farm  in  five  years!  No  cheating  of  tenants,  but  every¬ 
thing  paid  in  current  money.  And  if  all  this  will  not  attract  the  negro 
he  is  told  there  is  an  “  asylum  in  every  county”  to  which  he  can  go  when 
unable  to  support  himself.  The  document  also  promises  to  everybody 
“ free  schools”  in  “  brick  or  stone  school-houses,”  and  says  they  have 
“$2,000,000  greater  school  fund  than  any  State  in  the  Union.”  These 
Democratic  documents  have  been  circulated  by  the  thousand,  and  doubt¬ 
less  many  of  them  have  found  their  way  into  the  negro  cabins  of  North 
Carolina.  It  is  not  surprising  that  the  negro  looks  with  longing  eyes 
to  that  great  and  noble  State. 


CAUSES  OF  THE  EXODUS. 

There  is  surely  some  adequate  cause  for  such  a  movement.  The  ma¬ 
jority  of  the  committee  have  utterly  failed  to  find  it,  or,  if  found,  to  rec¬ 
ognize  it.  When  it  was  found  that  any  of  their  own  witnesses  were 
ready  to  state  causes  which  did  not  accord  with  their  theory  they  were 
dismissed  without  examination,  as  in  the  cases  of  Ruby  and  Stafford, 
and  a  half  dozen  others  who  were  brought  from  Kansas,  but  who  on 
their  arrival  here  were  found  to  entertain  views  not  agreeable  to  the 
majority. 

\\  e  regret  that  a  faithful  and  honest  discussion  of  this  subject  com¬ 
pels  a  reference  to  the  darkest,  bloodiest,  and  most  shameful  chapter  of 
our  political  history.  Gladly  would  we  avoid  it,  but  candor  compels  us 
to  say  that  the  volume  which  shall  faithfully  record  the  crimes  which,  in 
the  name  o(  Democracy,  have  been  committed  against  the  citizenship, 
the  lives,  and  the  personal  rights  of  these  people,  and  which  have  finally 
driven  them  in  utter  despair  from  their  homes,  will  stand  forever  with¬ 
out  a  parallel  in  the  annals  of  Christian  civilization.  In  discussing 
these  sad  and  shameful  events,  we  wish  it  distinctly  understood  that  we 
do  not  arraign  the  whole  people  nor  even  the  entire  Democratic  party 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


XV 


of  the  States  in  which  they  have  occurred.  The  colored  and  other  wit¬ 
nesses  all  declare  that  the  lawlessness  from  which  they  have  suffered 
does  not  meet  the  approval  of  the  better  class  of  Democrats  at  the 
South.  They  are  generally  committed  by  the  reckless,  dissolute  classes 
who  unfortunately  too  often  control  and  dominate  the  Democratic  party 
and  dictate  its  policy.  We  have  no  doubt  there  are  many  Democrats 
in  the  South  who  deeply  regret  this  condition  of  things,  and  who  would 
gladly  welcome  a  change,  but  they  are  in  a  helpless,  and  we  fear  a  hope¬ 
less,  minority  in  many  sections  of  that  country. 

The  unfortunate  and  inexcusable  feature  of  the  case  is  that,  however 
much  they  may  deplore  such  lawlessness,  they  have  never,  so  far  as  we 
can  learn,  declined  to  accept  its  fruits.  They  may  regret  the  violence 
and  crimes  by  which  American  citizens  are  prevented  from  voting,  but 
they  rejoice  in  the  Democratic  victories  which  result  therefrom.  So 
long  as  they  shall  continue  thus  to  accept  the  fruits  of  crime,  the  crimi¬ 
nals  will  have  but  little  fear  of  punishment  or  restraint,  and  the  law¬ 
less  conduct  which  is  depopulating  some  sections  of  their  laboring 
classes  will  go  on.  There  is  another  unfortunate  feature  of  this  mat¬ 
ter.  So  long  as  crimes  against  American  citizenship  shall  continue  to 
suppress  Republican  majorities,  and  to  give  a  u  solid  South w  to  the 
Democracy,  there  will  be  found  enough  Democrats  at  the  North  who 
will  shut  their  eyes  to  the  means  by  which  it  is  accomplished,  and  seek 
to  cover  up  and  excuse  the  conduct  of  their  political  partisans  at  the 
South. 

This  is  well  illustrated  by  the  report  of  the  majority  of  the  commit¬ 
tee.  In  the  presence  of  most  diabolic  outrages  clearly  proven ;  in  the 
face  of  the  declaration  of  thousands  of  refugees  that  they  had  fled  be¬ 
cause  of  the  insecurity  of  their  lives  and  property  at  the  South,  and 
because  the  Democratic  party  of  that  section  had,  by  means  too  shock¬ 
ing  and  shameful  to  relate,  deprived  them  of  their  rights  as  American 
citizens;  in  the  face  of  the  fact  that  it  has  been  clearly  shown  by  the 
evidence  that  organizations  of  colored  laborers,  one  of  which  numbered 
ninety-eight  thousand,  have  existed  for  many  years  and  extending  into 
many  States  of  the  South,  designed  to  improve  their  condition  by  emi¬ 
gration— in  the  face  of  all  these  facts  the  majority  of  the  committee 
can  see  no  cause  for  the  exodus  growing  out  of  such  wrongs,  but  en¬ 
deavor  to  charge  it  to  the  Republicans  of  the  North. 

In  view  of  this  fact,  it  is  our  painful  duty  to  point  out  some  of  the  real 
causes  of  this  movement.  It  is,  however,  quite  impossible  to  enumerate 
all  or  any  considerable  part  of  the  causes  of  discontent  and  utter  despair 
which  have  finally  culminated  in  this  movement.  To  do  so  would  be  to 
repeat  a  history  of  violence  and  crime  which  for  fifteen  years  have  red¬ 
dened  with  the  blood  "of  innocent  victims  many  of  the  fairest  portions  of 
our  country ;  to  do  so  would  be  to  read  the  numberless  volumes  ot  sworn 
testimony  which  have  been  carefully  corded  away  in  the  crypt  and  base¬ 
ment  of  this  Capitol,  reciting  shocking  instances  of  crime,  crying  from 
the  ground  against  the  perpetrators  of  the  deeds  which  they  record. 
The  most  which  we  can  hope  to  do  within  the  limits  oi  this  report  is  to 
present  a  very  few  facts  which  shall  be  merely  illustrative  of  the  condi¬ 
tions  which  have  driven  from  their  homes  and  the  graves  ol  their  lathers 
an  industrious,  patient,  and  law-abiding  people,  whom  we  are  bound  bj 
every  obligation  of  honor  and  patriotism  to  protect  in  their  personal  and 
political  rights  and  privileges. 

We  begin  with  the  State  of  North  Carolina  because  the  migration  from 
that  State  has  been  comparatively  insignificant,  and  also  because  the 
conditions  there  are  more  favorable  to  the  colored  race  than  in  am  ot 


XVI 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


the  other  cotton  States  of  the  South.  Owing  to  the  lack  of  funds,  and 
to  the  time  employed  in  the  examination  of  witnesses  called  by  the  ma¬ 
jority,  the  Republican  members  of  the  committee  summoned  no  witnesses 
from  tlie  State  of  North  Carolina,  and  were  obliged  to  content  themselves 
with  such  facts  as  could  be  obtained  from  one  or  two  persons  who  hap¬ 
pened  to  be  in  this  city,  and  such  other  facts  as  were  brought  out  upon 
cross-examination  of  the  witnesses  called  by  the  other  side.  By  the  care¬ 
ful  selection  of  a  few  well-to  do  and  more  fortunate  colored  men  from  that 
State,  the  majority  of  the  committee  secured  some  evidence  tending  to 
show  that  a  portion  of  the  negroes  of  North  Carolina  are  exceptionally 
well  treated  and  contented,  and  yet  upon  cross-examination  of  their  own 
witnesses  facts  were  disclosed  which  showed  that,  even  there,  conditions 
exist  which  are  ample  to  account  for  the  migration  of  the  entire  colored 
population. 

There  are  three  things  in  that  State  which  create  great  discontent 
among  the  colored  people :  First,  the  abridgment  of  their  rights  of  self- 
government  ;  second,  their  disadvantages  as  to  common  schools;  third, 
discriminations  against  them  in  the  courts;  and,  fourth,  the  memory  of 
Democratic  outrages.  Prior  to  Democratic  rule  the  people  of  each  county 
elected  five  commissioners,  who  had  supervision  over  the  whole  county, 
and  who  chose  the  judges  of  elections.  The  Democrats  changed  the 
constitution  so  as  to  take  this  power  from  the  people,  and  gave  to  the 
general  assembly  authority  to  appoint  these  officers.  This  they  regard 
not  only  as  practically  depriving  them  of  self-government,  but,  as  stated 
by  one  of  the  witnesses,  Hon.  R.  C.  Badger,  as  placing  the  elections, 
even  in  Republican  townships,  wholly  underthe  control  of  the  Democrats, 
who  thereby  “have  the  power  to  count  up  the  returns  and  throw  out 
the  balance  for  any  technicality,  exactly  as  Garcelon  &  Go.  did  in  Maine.” 
This  creates  much  dissatisfaction,  because  they  believe  they  are  cheated 
out  of  their  votes.  The  negro  values  the  ballot  more  than  anything 
else,  because  he  knows  that  it  is  his  only  means  of  defense  and  protection. 
A  law  which  places  all  the  returning  boards  in  the  hands  of  li is  political 
opponents  necessarily  and  justly  produces  discontent. 

Next  to  the  ballot  the  negro  values  the  privileges  of  common  schools, 
for  in  them  he  sees  the  future  elevation  of  his  race.  The  prejudice 
even  in  North  Carolina  against  white  teachers  of  colored  schools  seems 
to  have  abated  but  little  since  the  war.  Mr.  Badger,  when  cross-exam¬ 
ined  on  this  point,  said  : 


Q.  Is  there  any  prejudice  still  remaining  there  against  white  teachers  of  colored 
schools? — A.  I  think  there  is. 

Q.  Will  you  explain  it 
the  races. 

Q.  You  mean,  white  persons  teaching  a  colored  school  lose  social  status  ?- 
sir. 

Q.  Now,  a  white  lady  who  comes  from  the  North  and  teaches  a  colored  school,  to 
what  extent  is  she  tabooed? — A.  I  don’t  think  she  would  have  any  acquaintances  in 
white  society. 

Q.  Would  she  be  any  (pricker  invited  into  white  society  than  a  colored  woman  ? — A. 
Just  about  the  same. 


-A.  I  cannot  explain  it,  except  by  the  prejudices  between 

-A.  Yes, 

il  sc 

any  acqm 


This  fact  contains  within  itself  a  volume  of  testimony.  It  shows  that 
the  negro  is  still  regarded  as  a  sort  of  social  and  political  pariah,  whom 
no  white  person  may  teach  without  incurring  social  ostracism  and  being 
degraded  to  the  level  of  the  social  outcast  he  or  she  would  elevate  in 
the  scale  ot  being.  Is  it  surprising  that  the  negro  is  dissatisfied  with 
his  condition  and  desires  to  emigrate  to  some  country  where  his  children 
may  hope  for  better  things  ? 

Hie  most  serious  complaints,  however,  which  are  made  against  the 


XVII 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


treatment  of  colored  citizens  of  North  Carolina  is  that  justice  is  not 
fairly  administered  in  the  courts  as  between  themselves  and  the  whites. 
On  this  point  the  evidence  of  Mr.  R.  C.  Badger  reveals  a  condition  of 
things  to  which  no  people  can  long  submit.  Here  is  his  illustration  of 
the  manner  in  which  justice  is  usually  meted  out  as  between  the  negroes 
and  the  whites : 


Q.  How  about  the  discrimination  in  the  courts  as  between  the  whites  and  blacks  ? — 
A.  That  is  principally  in  matters  of  larcency.  In  such  cases  the  presumption  is 
reversed  as  to  the  negro.  A  white  man  can’t  be  convicted  without  the  fullest  proof, 
and  with  the  negroes,  in  matters  between  themselves,  such  as  assault  and  battery, 
they  get  as  fair  a  trial  as  the  whites.  At  the  January  term  of  our  court  Judge  Avery 
presided.  A  white  man  and  a  colored  woman  were  indicted  for  an  affray.  The  woman 
was  in  her  husband’s  barn  getting  out  corn ;  they  were  going  to  move,  and  the  white 
man  came  down  there  and  said,  “You  seem  to  have  a  good  time  laughing  here  this 
morning,”  and  she  said,  yes,  she  had  a  right  to  laugh.  He  said,  “  You  are  getting 
that  corn  out,  and  you  would  have  made  more  if  you  had  stuck  to  your  husband.” 
She  seemed  to  be  a  sort  of  termagant,  and  she  said  nobody  said  that  about  her  unless 
you  told  them.  He  made  some  insulting  remark,  and  she  made  something  in  return  to 
him,  and  he  took  a  billet  of  wood  and  struck  her  on  the  shoulder,  and  he  pulled  a 
pistol  and  beat  her  with  it,  and  she  went  for  him  to  kill  him.  They  found  the  man  not 
y nitty  and  they  found  her  guilty,  but  Judge  Avery  set  the  verdict  aside  and  ordered  the 
case  nolle prossed  against  her. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  is  a  fair  sample  of  the  justice  they  get  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  will  convict  a  colored  woman  m  order  to  get  a  chance  to  turn 
loose  a  white  man  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


Mr.  Badger  was  not  our  witness.  He  was  called  by  the  majority,  but 
lie  is  a  gentleman  of  high  character,  the  son  of  an  ex-member  of  this 
body,  and  thoroughly  acquainted  with  the  condition  of  things  in  his 
State.  He  puts  the  case  just  mentioned  as  a  “fair  sample”  of  North 
Carolina  justice  toward  the  negro.  It  is  true  the  judge  set  aside  the 
verdict,  but  this  does  not  change  the  fact  that  before  a  North  Carolina 
jury  the  negro  has  but  little  hope  of  justice. 

Back  of  all  these  things  lies  the  distrust  of  Democracy  which  was  in¬ 
spired  during  the  days  when  the  “  Kuklux,”  the  u  White  Brotherhood,” 
the  u  Universal  Empire,”  and  the  “ Stonewall  Guard”  spread  terror  and 
desolation  over  the  State  in  order  to  wrest  it  from  Republicanism  to 
Democracy,  The  memory  of  those  dark  days  and  bloody  deeds,  the 
prejudice  which  still  forbids  white  ladies  to  teach  colored  schools,  and 
denies  u even-handed  justice”  in  the  courts,  and  the  usurpations  which 
place  the  returning  boards  all  in  the  hands  of  Democrats,  have  inspired 
a  feeling  of  discontent  which  has  found  expression  in  the  efforts  of  a  few 
to  leave  the  State.  These  facts,  taken  in  connection  with  the  bonus  of 
one  dollar  per  head  offered  by  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad  <  om- 
pany  (a  Democratic  corporation  represented  by  a  Democratic  agent)  to 
leading  colored  men  who  would  secure  passengers  for  their  road,  has 
led  to  the  emigration  of  some  seven  or  eight  hundred  colored  people 
from  that  State,  and  the  only  wonder  is  that  thousands  instead  of  hun¬ 
dreds  have  not  gone. 


LOUISIANA  AND  MISSISSIPPI. 


The  States  of  Louisiana  and  Mississippi  have  furnished  the  larger  por¬ 
tion  of  the  migration  to  Kansas,  and  as  the  conditions  which  caused 
the  exodus  are  the  same  in  both  of  these  States,  we  may  speak  oi  them 
together.  No  single  act  of  wrong  has  inspired  this  movement,  but-  a 
long  series  of  oppression,  injustice,  and  violence,  extending  o\  er  a 
of  fifteen  years.  These  people  have  been  long-suffering  and  wonderfully 
patient,  but  the  time  came  when  they  could  endure  it  no  longer  and  they 
resolved  to  oo.  We  can  convey  no  adequate  idea  of  what  the}  cm  um< 

ii 


resolved  to 

S.  Rep.  093 


XVIII 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


before  adopting’  this  desperate  resolve,  but  will  mention  a  few  facts  drawn 
from  well  authenticated  history,  from  sworn  public  documents,  and  from 
the  evidence  taken  by  the  Exodus  Investigating  Committee.  Writing 
under  date  of  January  10, 1875,  General  P.  H.  Sheridan,  then  in  command 
at  New  Orleans,  says : 

Since  the  year  1866  nearly  thirty-live  hundred  persons,  a  great  majority  of  whom 
were  colored  men,  have  been  killed  and  wounded  in  this  State.  In  1868  the  official 
record  shows  that  eighteen  hundred  and  eighty-four  were  killed  and  wounded.  From 
1868  to  the  present  time  no  official  investigation  has  been  made,  and  the  civil  author¬ 
ities  in  all  but  a  few  cast's  have  been  unable  to  arrest,  convict,  or  punish  the  perpe¬ 
trators.  Consequently  there  are  no  correct  records  to  be  consulted  for  information. 
There  is  ample  evidence,  however,  to  show  that  more  than  twelve  hundred  persons 
ha  ve  been  killed  and  wounded  during  this  time  on  account  of  their  political  sentiments. 
Frightful  massacres  have  occurred  in  the  parishes  ot  Bossier,  Caddo,  Catahoula,  Saint 
Bernard,  Saint  Landry,  Grant,  and  Orleans. 

He  tlieu  proceeds  to  enumerate  the  political  murders  of  colored  men 
in  the  various  parishes,  and  says  : 

Human  life  in  this  State  is  held  so  cheaply  that  when  men  are  killed  on  account  of 
political  opinions,  the  murderers  are  regarded  rather  as  heroes  than  criminals  in  the 
localities  where  they  reside. 

This  brief  summary  is  not  by  a  politician,  but  by  a  distinguished 
soldier,  who  recounts  the  events  which  have  occurred  within  his  own 
military  jurisdiction.  Volumes  of  testimony  have  since  been  taken  con¬ 
firming  in  all  respects  General  Sheridan’s  statement,  and  giving  in  detail 
the  facts  relating  to  such  murders,  and  the  times  and  circumstances  of 
their  occurrence.  The  results  of  the  elections  which  immediately  followed 
them  disclose  the  motives  and  purposes  of  their  perpetrators.  These 
reports  show  that  in  the  year  1808  a  reign  of  terror  prevailed  over  almost 
the  entire  State.  In  the  parish  of  Saint  Landry  there  was  a  massacre 
of  colored  people  which  began  on  the  28th  of  September,  1868,  and  lasted 
from  three  to  si;c  days,  during  which  between  two  and  three  hundred 
colored  men  were  killed.  u  Thirteen  captives  were  taken  from  the  jail 
and  shot,  and  a  pile  of  twenty-five  dead  bodies  were  found  burned  in  the 
woods.”  The  result  of  this  Democratic  campaign  in  the  parish  was  that 
the  registered  Republican  majority  of  1,071  was  wholly  obliterated,  and, 
at  the  election  which  followed  a  few  weeks  later  not  a  vote  was  cast  for 
General  Grant,  while  Seymour  and  Blair  received  4,787. 

In  the  parish  of  Bossier  a  similar  massacre  occurred  between  the  20th 
and  30th  of  September,  1868,  which  lasted  from  three  to  four  days,  dur¬ 
ing  which  two  hundred  colored  people  were  killed.  By  the  official  regis¬ 
try  of  that  year  the  Republican  voters  in  Bossier  Parish  numbered  1,938, 
but  at  the  ensuing  election  only  one  Republican  vote  was  cast. 

In  the  parish  of  Caddo  during  the  month  of  October,  1868,  over  forty 
colored  people  were  killed.  The  result  of  that  massacre  was  that  out 
of  a  Republican  registered  vote  of  2,894  only  one  was  cast  for  General 
Grant.  Similar  scenes  were  enacted  throughout  the  State,  varying  in 
extent  and  atrocity  according  to  the  magnitude  of  the  Republican 
majority  to  be  overcome. 

The  total  summing-up  of  murders,  mannings,  and  whippings  which 


follows:  The  official  registration  for  that  year  in  twenty  eight  parishes 
contained  4 <,923  names  of  Republican  voters,  but  at  the  Presidential 
election,  held  a  few  weeks  after  the  occurrence  of  these  events,  b 
Republican  votes  were  cast,  making  the  net  Democratic  gain  fr 
transactions  42.563. 


but  5,360 
om  said 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


XIX 


In  nine  of  these  parishes  where  the  reign  of  terror  was  most  preva¬ 
lent,  out  of  11,604  registered  Republican  votes  only  19  were  cast  for 
General  Grant.  In  seven  of  said  parishes  there  were  7,253  registered 
Republican  votes  but  not  one  was  cast  at  the  ensuing  election  for  the 
Republican  ticket. 

In  the  years  succeeding  1868,  when  some  restraint  was  imposed  upon 
political  lawlessness  and  a  comparatively  peaceful  election  was  held, 
these  same  Republican  parishes  cast  from  33,000  to  37,000  Republican 
votes,  thus  demonstrating  the  purpose  and  the  effects  of  the  reign  of 
murder  in  1868.  In  1876  the  spirit  of  violence  and  persecution  which,  in 
parts  of  the  State,  had  been  partially  restrained  for  a  time,  broke  forth 
again  with  renewed  fury.  It  was  deemed  necessary  to  carry  that  State 
for  Tilden  and  Hendricks,  and  the  policy  which  had  proved  so  successful 
in  1868  was  again  invoked  and  with  like  results.  On  the  day  of  general 
election  in  1876  there  were  in  the  State  of  Louisiana  92,996  registered 
white  voters  and  115,310  colored,  making  a  Republican  majority  of  the 
latter  of  22,314.  The  number  of  white  Republicans  was  far  in  excess  of 
the  number  of  colored  Democrats.  It  was,  therefore,  well  known  that 
if  a  fair  election  should  be  held  the  State  would  go  Republican  by  from 
twenty-five  to  forty  thousand  majority.  The  policy  adopted  this  time 
was  to  select  a  few  of  the  largest  Republican  parishes  and  by  terrorism 
and  violence  not  only  obliterate  their  Republican  majorities,  but  also 
intimidate  the  negroes  in  the  other  parishes.  The  sworn  testimony 
found  in  our  public  documents  and  records  shows  that  the  same  system 
of  assassinations,  whippings,  burnings,  and  other  acts  of  political  per¬ 
secution  of  colored  citizens  which  had  occurred  in  1868  was  "again  re¬ 
peated  in  1876  and  with  like  results. 

In  fifteen  parishes  where  17,726  Republicans  were  registered  in  1876 
only  5,758  votes  were  cast  for  Hayes  and  Wheeler,  and  in  one  of  them 
(East  Feliciana)  where  there  were  2,127  Republicans  registered  but  1 
Republican  vote  was  cast.  By  such  methods  the  Republican  majority  of 
the  State  was  supposed  to  have  been  effectually  suppressed  and  a  Dem¬ 
ocratic  victory  assured.  And  because  the  legally  constituted  authorities 
of  Louisiana,  acting  in  conformity  with  law  and  justice,  declined  to  count 
some  of  the  parishes  thus  carried  by  violence  and  blood  the  Democratic 
party,  both  North  and  South,  has  ever  since  complained  that  it  was 
fraudulently  deprived  of  the  fruits  of  victory,  and  it  now  proposes  to 
make  this  grievance  the  principal  plank  in  the  party  platform. 

On  the  6th  of  December,  1876,  President  Grant  in  a  message  to  Con¬ 
gress  transmitted  the  evidence  of  these  horrible  crimes  against  the 
colored  race,  committed  in  the  name  and  in  the  interest  of  the  Democracy. 
They  are  not  mere  estimates  nor  conjectures,  but  the  names  of  the  per¬ 
sons  murdered,  maimed,  and  whipped,  and  of  the  perpetrators  of  the 
crimes,  the  places  where  they  occurred,  and  the  revolting  circumstances 
under  which  they  were  committed,  are  all  set  forth  in  detail.  This 
shocking  record  embraces  a  period  of  eight  years,  from  1868  to  1876, 
inclusive,  and  covers  ninety-eight  pages  of  fine  type,  giving  an  average 
of  about  one  victim  to  each  line.  We  have  not  counted  the  list,  but  it  is 
sate  to  say  that  it  numbers  over  four  thousand. 

These  crimes  did  not  end  in  1876  with  the  accession  of  the  Democracy 
to  control  of  the  State  administration.  The  witnesses  examined  by  your 
committee  gave  numerous  instances  of  like  character  which  occuned  in 
1878.  Madison  Parish  may  serve  as  an  illustration.  This  parish,  winch 
furnished  perhaps  the  largest  number  of  refugees  to  Kansas,  had  been 
exceptionally  free  from  bulldozing  informer  years.  1\  llliam  Munc  , 


XX 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


one  of  tlie  witnesses  called  by  the  committee,  states  the  reasons  for  the 
exodus  from  that  parish  as  follows : 

You  have  not  read  of  any  exodus  yet  as  there  will  be  from  that  section  this  summer, 
and  the  reason  for  it  is  that,  for  the  first  time  since  the  war  in  Madison  Parish,  last 
December  we  had  bulldozing  there.  Armed  bodies  of  men  came  into  the  parish — not 
people  who  lived  in  the  parish,  but  men  from  Ouachita  Parish  and  Richland  Parish; 
and  I  can  name  the  leader  who  commanded  them.  He  was  a  gentleman  by  the  name 
of  Captain  Tibbals,  of  Ouachita  Parish,  who  lives  in  Monroe,  who  was  noted  in  the 
celebrated  massacre  there  in  other  times.  His  very  name  among  the  colored  people  is 
sufficient  to  intimidate  them  almost.  He  came  with  a  crowd  of  men  on  the  8th  of 
December  into  Madison  Parish,  when  all  was  quiet  and  peaceable.  There  was  no  quar¬ 
rel,  no  excitement.  We  had  always  elected  our  tickets  in  the  parish,  and  we  had  put 
Democrats  on  the  ticket  in  many  cases  to  satisfy  them.  There  were  only  238  white 
voters  and  about  2,700  colored  registered  voters. 

Mr.  Murrell  says  that  David  Armstrong,  who  was  president  of  the 
third  ward  Republican  club,  a  man  who  stood  high  in  the  community, 
and  against  whom  no  charge  was  made  except  that  of  being  a  Repub¬ 
lican,  made  the  remark : 

“What  right  have  these  white  men  to  come  here  from  Morehouse  Parish,  and  Rich¬ 
land  Parish,  and  Franklin  Parish  to  interfere  with  our  election  ?”  And  some  white 
men  heard  of  it  and  got  a  squad  by  themselves  and  said,  “We’ll  go  down  and  give 
that  nigger  a  whipping.”  So  Sunday  night,  about  ten  o’clock,  they  went  to  his  house 
to  take  him  out  and  whip  him.  They  saw  him  run  out  the  back  way  and  fired  on 
him.  One  in  the  crowd  cried  out,  “Don’t  kill  him!”  “  It  is  too  late,  now,”  they  said, 
“he’s  dead.”  The  Carroll  Conservative,  a  Democratic  newspaper,  published  the 
whole  thing;  but  the  reason  they  did  it  was  because  we  had  one  of  their  men  on  our 
ticket  as  judge,  and  they  got  sore  about  it,  and  we  beat  him.  They  killed  Armstrong 
and  took  him  three  hundred  yards  to  the  river,  in  a  sheet,  threw  him  in  the  river, 
and  left  the  sheet  in  the  bushes. 


Proceeding  with  the  account  of  that  transaction,  Mr.  Murrell  swears 
that  the  colored  people  had  heard  that  the  bulldozers  were  coming  from 
the  surrounding  parishes,  and  that  he  and  others  called  on  some  of  the 
leading  Democrats  in  order  to  prevent  it,  but  all  in  vain.  He  says: 

We  waited  on  Mr.  Holmes,  the  clerk  of  the  court,  and  we  said  to  him,  “Mr.  Holmes, 
it  is  not  necessary  to  do  any  bulldozing  here ;  you  have  die  counting  machinery  all 
in  your  hands,  and  we  would  rather  be  counted  out  than  bulldozed ;  can’t  we  arrange 
this  thing?”  I  made  a  proposition  to  him  and  said,  “You  know  I  am  renominated 
on  the  Republican  ticket,  but  I  will  get  out  of  the  way  for  any  moderate  Democrat 
you  may  name,  to  save  the  State  and  district  ticket.  We  will  not  vote  for  your  State 
ticket;  you  cannot  make  the  colored  people  vote  the  State  ticket;  but  if  you  will  let 
us  have  our  State  ticket  we  will  give  you  the  local  offices.”  We  offered  them  the 
clerk  of  the  court,  not  the  sheriff',  and  the  two  representatives.  We  told  him  we 
would  not  give  them  the  senator,  but  the  district  judge  and  attorney.  After  this 
interview  Holmes  sent  us  to  Dr.  Askew,  ex-chairman  of  the  Democratic  committee, 
and  he  said  to  me,  “Now,  Murrell,  there  is  no  use  talking,  I  advise  you  to  stand  from 
under.  When  these  men  get  in  here  we  can’t  control  them.  We  like  you  well  enough 
and  would  not  like  to  see  you  hurt.  I  will  see  you  to-night  at  Mr.  Holmes’s.”  We 
had  an  interview  with  Mr.  Holmes  and  made  this  proposition,  and  Holmes  asked  me 
this  question  :  “Murrell,  you  know  damned  well  the  niggers  in  this  parish  won’t  vote 
the  Democratic  ticket — there  is  no  use  to  tell  me  you  will  give  us  the  clerk  of  the 
court,  you  know  the  niggers  won’t  do  it.  You  can’t  trust  the  niggers  in  politics;  all 
your  eloquence  and  all  the  speeches  you  can  make  won’t  make  these  niggers  vote  this 
ticket  or  what  you  suggest,  even  if  we  was  to  accept  if.  No,  by  God,  Murrell,  there’s 
no  use  talking,  we  are  going  to  carry  this  parish  ;  we  have  found  a  way  to  carry  it. 
There  ain’t  no  use  talking  any  more  about  it.  JSTo,  by  God,  we  are  ffoing  to  carry  it. 
V>  liy,  he  said,  “  th ere  is  more  eloquence  in  double-barreled  shot-guns  to  convince  niggers 
than  there  is  in  forty  Ciceros.”  I  said  to  him,  “Well,  do  you  suppose  the  merchants 
and  planters  will  back  you  up,”  and  he  said,  “O,  by  God,  they  have  got  nothing  to 
do  with  it.  We  have  charge  of  it.  JVe  three  men,  the  Democratic  committee,  have  full 
power  to  work.” 


The  result  of  this  “work'7  was,  as  stated  by  the  witness,  and  not  dis¬ 
puted  by  any  one  before  the  committee,  that  in  this  parish,  containing 
2,700  registered  Republican  voters,  and  only  23S  Democrats,  the  Demo- 


/ 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


XXI 


crats  returned  a  majority  of  2,300.  The  witness,  who  was  a  candidate 
on  the  Republican  ticket,  swears  that  not  more  than  360  votes  were 
cast.  Democratic  shot-gun  eloquence  did  its  “  work,”  as  prophesied  by 
Mr.  Askew,  ex-chairman  of  the  Democratic  committee,  but  it  also  served 
as  a  wonderful  stimulus  to  migration  from  Madison  Parish. 

We  cite  this  case  for  two  reasons  :  First,  because  it  has  been  said  that 
the  negroes  have  not  emigrated  from  bulldozed  parishes ;  and,  secondly, 
because  it  serves  as  an  illustration  of  the  many  similar  cases  which  were 
given  to  the  committee. 

We  desire  also  to  invite  attention  to  the  evidence  of  Henry  Adams, 
a  colored  witness  from  Shreveport,  La.  Adams  is  a  man  of  very  re¬ 
markable  energy  and  native  ability.  Scores  of  witnesses  were  summoned 
by  the  majority  of  the  committee  from  Shreveport,  but  none  of  them 
ventured  to  question  liis  integrity  or  truthfulness.  Though  a  common 
laborer,  he  has  devoted  much  of  his  time  in  traveling  through  Louisiana, 
Mississippi,  and  Texas,  working  his  way  and  taking  notes  of  the  crimes 
committed  against  his  race.  His  notes,  written  in  terse  and  simple  lan¬ 
guage,  embraced  the  names  of  six  hundred  and  eighty-three  colored 
men  who  have  been  whipped,  maimed,  or  murdered  within  the  last  eight 
years,  and  his  statement  of  these  crimes  covers  thirty-five  pages  of 
closely  printed  matter  in  the  report.  We  are  sure  no  one  can  read  it 
without  a  conviction  of  its  truthfulness  and  a  feeling  of  horror  at  the 
barbarous  details  he  relates.  Adams  is  the  man  who  has  organized  a 
colonization  council,  composed  of  laboring  colored  people,  and  rigidly 
excluding  politicians,  which  numbers  ninety-eight  thousand  who  have 
enrolled  themselves  with  a  view  to  emigration  from  that  country  as 
early  as  possible.  He  details  the  character  and  the  purpose  of  the  or¬ 
ganization  and  the  efforts  it  has  made  to  obtain  relief  and  protection 
for  its  members.  “  First,”  he  says,  “  we  appealed  to  the  President  of  the 
United  States  to  help  us  out  of  our  distress,  to  protect  us  in  our  rights 
and  privileges.  Next,  we  appealed  to  Congress  for  a  territory  to  which 
we  might  go  and  live  with  our  families.  Failing  in  that,”  says  he,  “our 
other  object  was  to  ask  for  help  to  ship  us  all  to  Liberia,  Africa,  some¬ 
where  where  we  could  live  in  peace  and  quiet.  If  that  could  not  be 
done,”  he  adds,  uour  idea  was  to  appeal  to  other  governments  outside  of  the 
United  States  to  help  us  to  get  away  from  the  United  States  and  go  and  live 
there  under  their  flag.”  What  a  commentary  upon  our  own  boasted 
equality  and  freedom!  Finding  no  relief  in  any  direction,  they  finally 
resolved  to  emigrate  to  some  of  the  Northern  States.  He  says  they  had 
some  hope  of  securing  better  treatment  at  home  until  1877,  when  “we 
lost  all  hopes  and  determined  to  go  anywhere  on  God’s  earth,  we  didn’t 
care  where ;  we  said  we  was  going  if  we  had  to  run  away  and  go  to  the 
woods.”  Perhaps  we  can  best  summarize  the  condition  of  affairs  in 
Louisiana,  and  the  causes  of  the  exodus  from  that  State,  as  the  negroes 
themselves  regarded  them,  by  quoting  a  brief  extract  from  the  report 
of  the  business  committee  to  lie  colored  State  convention  held  in  New 
Orleans  on  the  21st  of  April,  1879: 

New  Orleans,  April  21,  1879. 

Mr.  President:  Your  committee  on  business  have  the  honor  to  submit  this  their 
final  report.  Discussing  the  general  and  widespread  alarm  among  the  colored  people 
of  Louisiana,  including  so  potent  a  fear  that  in  many  parishes,  and  in  others  pel  haps 
largely  to  follow,  there  is  an  exodus  of  agricultural  labor  which  indicates  the  prostra¬ 
tion  and  destruction  of  the  productive,  and  therefore  essentially  vital,  interests  <d  t  ie 
State.  The  Committee  find  that  the  primary  cause  of  this  lies  in  the  absence  of  a  republican 
form  of  government  to  the  people  of  Louisiana.  Crime  and  lawlessness  existing  to  an  extent 
that  laughs  at  all  restraint,  and  the  misgovern ment  naturally  induced  from  a  State  adminis- 


XXII 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


tration  itself  the  product  of  violence,  have  created  an  absorbing  and  constantly  increasing  dis¬ 
trust  and  alarm  among  our  people  throughout  the  State.  All  rights  of  freemen  denied  and 
all  claims  to  a  just  recompense  for  labor  rendered  or  honorable  dealings  between  planter  and 
laborer  disallowed,  justice  a  mockery,  and  the  laws  a  cheat,  the  very  officers  of  the  courts  be¬ 
ing  themselves  the  mobocrats  and  violators  of  law,  the  only  remedy  left  the  colored  citizen  in 
many  parishes  of  our  State  to-day  is  to  emigrate.  The  fiat  to  go  forth  is  irresistible.  The 
constantly  recurring,  nay,  ever-present,  fear  which  haunts  the  minds  of  these  our  people  in 
the  turbulent  parishes  of  the  State  is  that  slavery  in  the  horrible  form  of  peonage  is  ap¬ 
proaching;  that  the  avowed  disposition  of  the  men  in  power  to  reduce  the  laborer  and  his  in¬ 
terest  to  the  minimum  of  advantages  as  freemen  and  to  absolutely  none  as  citizens  has  produced 
so  absolute  a  fear  that  in  many  cases  it  has  become  a  panic.  It  is  flight  from  present  suffer¬ 
ings  and  from  wrongs  to  come. 


Here  are  the  reasons  for  the  exodus  as  stated  by  the  colored  people 
themselves.  In  view  of  the  facts  which  we  have  stated,  and  of  the  ter¬ 
rible  history  which  we  cannot  here  repeat,  does  any  one  believe  their  state¬ 
ment  of  grievances  is  overdrawn?  Is  there  any  other  race  of  freemen 
on  the  face  of  the  earth  who  would  have  endured  and  patiently  suffered 
as  they  have  ?  Is  there  any  other  government  among  civilized  nations 
which  would  have  permitted  such  acts  to  be  perpertrated  against  its 
citizens  ? 

We  will  not  dwell  upon  the  conditions  which  have  driven  these  people 
from  Mississippi.  It  would  be  but  a  repetition  of  the  intolerance,  per¬ 
secutions,  and  violence  which  have  prevailed  in  Louisiana,  The  same 
Democratic  “shot-gun  eloquence”  which  was  so  potent  for  the  conver¬ 
sion  of  colored  Republicans  in  the  one  has  proven  equally  powerful  in 
the  other.  The  same  “eloquence”  which  wrested  Louisiana  from  Repub¬ 
licans  also  converted  Mississippi.  And  in  both  the  same  results  are 
visible  in  the  determination  of  the  colored  people  to  get  away. 

Nearly  all  the  witnesses  who  were  asked  as  to  the  causes  of  the  ex¬ 
odus  answered  that  it  was  because  of  a  feeling  of  insecurity  for  life  and 
property  ;  a  denial  of  their  political  rights  as  citizens  5  long-continued 
persecutions  for  political  reasons;  a  system  of  cheating  by  landlords 
and  storekeepers  which  rendered  it  impossible  for  them  to  make  a  living 
no  matter  how  hard  they  might  work ;  the  inadequacy  of  school  advan¬ 
tages,  and  a  fear  that  they  would  be  eventually  reduced  to  a  system  of 
peonage  even  worse  then  slavery  itself. 

On  the  latter  point  they  quoted  the  laws  of  Mississippi,  which  author¬ 
ize  a  justice’s  court  to  inflict  heavy  fines  for  the  most  trival  offenses,  and 
authorize  the  sheriff  to  hire  the  convicts  to  planters  and  others  for  twenty- 
five  cents  a  day  to  work  out  the  fine  and  cost,  and  which  provide  that 
for  every  day  lost  from  sickness  he  shall  work  another  to  pay  for  his 
board  while  sick.  Under  these  laws  they  allege  that  a  colored  man 
may  be  fined  $500  for  some  trifling  misdemeanor,  and  be  compelled  to 
work  five  or  six  years  to  pay  the  fine  ;  and  that  it  is  not  uncommon  for 
colored  men  thus  hired  out  to  be  worked  in  a  chain-gang  upon  the 
plantations  under  overseers,  with  whip  in  hand,  precisely  as  in  the  days 
of  slavery.  And  some  of  the  witnesses  declared  that  if  an  attempt  be 
made  to  escape  they  are  pursued  with  blood-hounds,  as  before  the  war. 

Henry  Ruby,  a  witness  summoned  by  the  majority  of  the  committee, 
swore  that  in  Texas,  under  a  law  similar  to  that  in  Mississippi,  a  colored 
man  had  been  arrested  for  carrying  a  “six-shooter”  and  fined  $05,  in¬ 
cluding  costs,  and  that  he  had  been  at  work  nearly  three  years  to  pay 
it.  The  laws  of  that  State  do  not  fix  the  rate  for  hiring,  but  “county 
convicts”  may  be  hired  at  any  price  the  county  judge  may  determine. 
He  mentioned  the  case  of  a  colored  woman  who  was  hired  out  for  a 
quarter  of  a  cent  per  day.  Describing  this  process  of  hiring,  he  says : 

They  call  these  people  county  convicts,  and  if  you  have  got  a  farm  you  can  go  and 
hire  them  out  ot  the  jail.  They  have  got  that  system,  and  the  colored  men  object  to 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


XXIII 


it.  I  know  some  of  these  men  who  have  State  convicts  that  they  hire  and  tliev  work 
them  under  shotguns.  A  farmer  hires  so  many  of  the  State,  and  they  are  under  the 
supervision  of  a  sergeant  with  a  gun  and  nigger-hounds,  to  run  them  with  if  they  <>et 
away.  They  hire  them  and  put  them  in  the  same  gang  with  the  striped  suit  on  and 
if  they  want,  the  guard  can  bring  them  down  with  his  shotgun.  Then  tliev  have 
these  nigger-hounds,  and  if  one  of  them  gets  off  and  they  can’t  tind  him  they  take  the 
hounds,  and  from  a  shoe,  or  anything  of  the  kind  belonging  to  the  convict,' they  trail 
him  down. 

Q.  Are  these  the  same  sort  of  hlood-liounds  they  used  to  have  to  run  the  negroes 
with  ?— A.  Yes,  sir.  ' 

These  things  need  no  comment.  To  the  negro  they  are  painfully 
suggestive  of  slavery,  is  it  a  wonder  that  he  has  resolved  to  go  where 
peonage  and  blood-hounds  are  unknown  i 

Several  witnesses  were  called  from  Saint  Louis  and  Kansas,  who  had 
conversed  with  thousands  of  the  refugees,  and  who  swore  that  they  all 
told  the  same  story  of  injustice,  oppression,  and  wrong.  Upon"  the 
arrival  of  the  first  boat-loads  at  Saint  Louis,  in  the  early  spring  of  1879, 
the  people  of  that  city  were  deeply  moved  by  the  evident  destitution 
and  distress  which  they  presented,  and  ihousands  of  them  were  inter¬ 
viewed  as  to  the  causes  which  impelled  them  to  leave  their  homes  at 
that  inclement  season  of  the  year.  In  the  presence  of  these  people,  and 
with  a  full  knowledge  of  their  condition  and  of  the  causes  of  their  flight, 
a  memorial  to  Congress  was  prepared,  and  signed  by  a  large  number  of 
the  most  prominent  and  respectable  citizens  of  Saint  Louis,  embracing 
such  names  as  Mayor  OVerholtz  (a  Democrat),  Hon.  John  F.  Dillon,  judge 
of  the  United  States  circuit  court,  ex  United  States  Senator  J.  B.  Hen¬ 
derson,  and  nearly  a  hundred  other  leading  citizens,  in  which  the  con¬ 
dition  and  grievances  of  the  refugees  are  stated  as  follows: 

The  undersigned,  your  memorialists,  respectfully  represent  that  within  the  last  two 
weeks  there  have  come  by  steamboats  up  the  Mississippi  River,  from  chiefly  the  States 
of  Louisiana  and  Mississippi,  and  landed  at  Saint  Louis,  Mo.,  a  great  number  of  colored 
citizens  of  the  United  States,  not  less  than  twenty  hundred,  and  composed  of  men  and 
women,  old  and  young,  and  with  them  many  of  their  children. 

This  multitude  is  eager  to  proceed  to  Kansas,  and  without  exception,  so  far  as  we 
have  learned,  refuse  all  overtures  or  inducements  to  return  South,  even  if  their 
passage  back  is  paid  for  them. 

The  condition  of  the  great  majority  is  absolute  poverty;  they  are  clothed  in  thin 
and  ragged  garments  for  the  most  part,  and  while  here  have  been  supported  to  some 
extent  by  public,  but  mostly  by  private  charity. 

The  older  ones  are  the  former  slaves  of  the  South  ;  all  now  entitled  to  life  and  liberty. 

The  weather  from  the  first  advent  of  these  people  in  this  Northern  city  has  been 
unusually  cold,  attended  with  ice  and  snow,  so  that  their  sufferings  have  been  greatly 
increased,  and  if  there  was  in  their  hearts  a  single  kind  remembrance  of  their  sunny 
Southern  homes  they  would  naturally  give  it  expression  now. 

We  have  taken  occasion  to  examine  into  the  causes  they  themselves  assign  tor  their 
extraordinary  and  unexpected  transit,  and  beg  leave  to  submit  herewith  the  written 
statements  of  a  number  of  individuals  of  the  refugees,  which  were  taken  without  any 
effort  to  have  one  thing  said  more  than  another,  and  to  express  the  sense  ot  the  wit¬ 
ness  in  his  own  language  as  nearly  as  possible. 

The  story  is  about  the  same  in  each  instance:  great  privation  and  want  from  exces¬ 
sive  rent  exacted  for  land,  connected  with  murder  of  colored  neighbors  and  threats  ot 
personal  violence  to  themselves.  The  tone  of  each  statement  is  that  of  suffering  and 
terror.  Election  days  and  Christmas,  by  the  concurrent  testimony,  seem  to  have  been 
appropriated  to  killing  the  smart  men,  while  robbery  and  personal  violence  in  one 

form  and  another  seem  to  have  run  the  year  round. 

*  -*  *  *  '  *  * 

We  submit  that  the  great  migration  of  negroes  from  the  South  is  itself  a  fact  that 
overbears  all  contradiction,  and  proves  conclusively  that  great  causes  must  exist  at 

the  South  to  account  for  it.  .  . 

Here  they  are  in  multitudes,  not  men  alone,  but  women  and  children,  old,  middle- 
aged,  and  young,  with  common  consent  leaving  their  old  homes  in  a  natural  climate 
and  facing  storms  and  unknown  dangers  to  go  to  Northern  Kansas.  \\  liy  f  Among 
them  all  there  is  little  said  of  hope  in  the  future ;  it  is  all  of  fear  in  the  past.  1  bey 
are  not  drawn  bv  the  attractions  of  Kansas ;  they  are  driven  by  the  terrors  ot  Missis- 


XXIV 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


sippi  and  Louisiana.  Whatever  becomes  of  them,  they  are  unanimous  in  their  unal¬ 
terable  determination  not  to  return. 

There  are  others  coming.  Those  who  have  come  and  gone  on  to  Kansas  must  suffer 
even  unto  death,  we  fear  ;  at  all  events  more  than  any  body  of  people  entitled  to  lib¬ 
erty  and  law,  the  possession  of  property,  the  right  to  vote,  and  the  pursuit  of  happiness, 
should  be  compelled  to  suffer  under  a  free  government  from  terror  inspired  by  robbery, 
threats,  assaults,  and  murders. 

We  protest  against  the  dire  necessities  that  have  impelled  this  exodus,  and  against 
the  violation  of  common  right,  natural  and  constitutional,  proven  to  be  of  most  fre¬ 
quent  occurrence  in  places  named;  and  we  ask  such  action  at  the  hands  of  our  repre¬ 
sentatives  and  our  government  as  shall  investigate  the  full  extent  of  the  causes  lead¬ 
ing  to  this  unnatural  state  of  affairs  and  protect  the  people  from  its  continuance,  and 
not  only  protect  liberty  and  life,  but  enforce  law  and  order. 

It  is  intolerable  to  believe  that  with  the  increased  representation  of  the  Southern 
States  in  Congress  those  shall  not  be  allowed  freely  to  cast  their  ballots  upon  whose 
right  to  vote  that  representation  has  been  enlarged.  We  believe  no  government  can 
prosper  that  will  allow  such  a  state  of  injustice  to  the  body  of  its  people  to  exist,  any 
more  than  society  can  endure  where  robbery  and  murder  go  unchallenged. 

The  occasion  is,  we  think,  a  tit  one  for  us  to  protest  against  a  state  of  affairs  thus 
exhibited  in  those  parts  of  the  Union  from  which  these  negroes  come,  which  is  not 
only  most  barbarous  toward  the  negro,  but  is  destructive  to  the  constitutional  rights 
of  all  citizens  of  our  common  country. 


Accompanying  this  memorial  are  numerous  affidavits  of  the  refugees 
fully  confirming  all  its  statements. 

As  to  the  future  of  the  exodus  we  can  only  say  that  every  witness, 
whose  opinion  was  ashed  upon  this  point,  declared  that  it  has  only  be¬ 
gun,  and  that  what  we  have  seen  in  the  past  is  nothing  compared  to 
what  is  to  come,  unless  there  shall  be  a  radical  change  on  the  part  of 
Democrats  in  the  South.  They  say  that  the  negro  has  no  confidence 
in  the  Democratic  party,  and  that  if  a  Democratic  President  shall  be 
elected  there  will  be  a  general  stampede  of  the  colored  race. 

There  is  but  one  remedy  for  the  exodus — fair  treatment  of  the  negro. 
If  the  better  class  of  white  men  at  the  South  would  retain  the  colored 
laborer  they  must  recognize  his  manhood  and  his  citizenship,  and  re¬ 
strain  the  vicious  and  lawless  elements  in  tlier  midst.  If  Northern  Demo¬ 
crats  would  check  the  threatened  inundation  of  black  labor  into  their 
States,  they  must  recognize  the  facts  which  have  produced  the  exodus, 
and  unite  with  us  in  removing  its  causes. 

We  present  in  conclusion  the  following  brief  summary  of  the  results 
of  the  investigation : 

First.  This  movement  was  not  instigated,  aided,  or  encouraged  by 
Republican  leaders  at  the  North.  The  only  aid  they  have  ever  given 
was  purely  as  a  matter  of  charity,  to  relieve  the  distress  of  the  destitute 
and  suffering  emigrants  who  had  already  come  to  the  North. 

Second.  Not  one  dollar  lias  ever  been  contributed  by  anybody  at  the 
North  to  bring  these  people  from  their  homes.  On  the  contrary,  the 
only  contributions  shown  to  have  been  made  for  such  purpose  made  were 
by  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad  Company,  a  Democratic  corporation, 
which  employed  agents  to  work  up  the  emigration  from  North  Carolina, 
paying  $1  per  head  therefor. 

Third.  It  is  not  proven  that  the  emigrants  are  disatisfied  in  their  new 
homes  and  wish  to  return  to  the  South.  On  the  contrary,  a  standing 
offer  to  pay  their  expenses  back  to  the  South  has  not  induced  more  than 
about  three  hundred  out  of  thirty  thousand  to  return. 

Fourth.  It  is  not  proven  that  there  is  no  demand  for  their  labor  at 
the  North,  tor  nearly  all  those  who  have  come  have  found  employment, 
and  even  in  Indiana  hundreds  of  applications  for  them  were  presented 
to  the  committee. 

1'  itth.  It  is  wot  proven  that  there  is  any  sufficient  reason  for  the  grave 
political  apprehensions  entertained  in  some  quarters,  for  it  was  shown 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


XXV 


by  Mr.  Dukehart,  who  sold  all  the  tickets  to  those  who  came  from  North 
Carolina,  that  not  more  than  two  hundred  voters  had  gone  to  Indiana. 

Sixth.  The  exodus  movement  originated  entirely  with  the  colored 
people  themselves,  who  for  many  years  have  been  organizing  for  the 
purpose  of  finding  relief  in  that  way,  and  the  colored  agents  of  such 
organizations  have  traveled  all  over  the  South  consulting  with  their 
race  on  this  subject. 

Seventh.  A  long  series  of  political  persecutions,  whippings,  maimings, 
and  murders  committed  by  Democrats  and  in  the  interest  of  the  Dem¬ 
ocratic  party,  extending  over  a  period  of  fifteen  years,  has  finally  driven 
the  negro  to  despair,  and  compelled  him  to  seek  peace  and  safety  by 
flight. 

Eighth.  In  some  States  a  system  of  convict  hiring  is  authorized  by 
law,  which  reinstates  the  chain-gang,  the  overseer,  and  the  blood-liound 
substantially  as  in  the  days  of  slavery. 

Ninth.  A  system  of  labor  and  renting  has  been  adopted  in  some  parts 
of  the  South  which  reduces  a  negro  to  a  condition  but  little  better  than 
that  of  peonage,  and  which  renders  it  impossible  for  him  to  make  a 
comfortable  living,  no  matter  how  hard  he  may  work. 

Tenth.  The  only  remedy  for  the  exodus  is  in  the  hands  of  Southern 
Democrats  themselves,  and  if  they  do  not  change  their  treatment  of  the 
negro  and  recognize  his  rights  as  a  man  and  a  citizen,  the  movement 
will  go  on,  greatly  to  the  injury  of  the  labor  interests  of  the  South,  if 
not  the  whole  country. 

WILLIAM  WINDOM. 

HENRY  W.  BLAIR. 

S.  Rep.  693 - in 


. 


. 


T  I. 


PROCEEDINGS 


OF  THE 

SELECT  COMMITTEE  OF  THE  UNITED  STATES  SENATE 


TO  INVESTIGATE  THE  CAUSES  OF  THE 

REMOVAL  OF  THE  NEGROES  FROM  THE  SOUTHERN 
STATES  TO  THE  NORTHERN  STATES. 


Sessions  held  at  Washington ,  beginning  Monday ,  January  19,  1880. 


- 


' 


.  m 


E  X O DUS  CO  M  M  ITT  EE 


FIRST  D A Y . 

TESTIMONY  OF  THOMAS  L.  TULLOCK. 

Washington,  D.  0.,  Monday,  January  19,  1880. 

Thomas  L.  Tullock  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Please  state  your  name  and  present  residence. — Answer. 
My  name  is  Thomas  L.  Tullock  ;  my  residence  is  Washington  City. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  here?— A.  I  have  lived  here  about  four¬ 
teen  years. 

Q.  From  what  State  did  you  come  when  you  came  here? — A.  I  came 
here  from  New  Hampshire. 

Q.  What  official  position  do  you  hold  under  the  government  at  this 
time? — A.  Iam  at  present  assistant  postmaster  of  the  city  of  Wash¬ 
ington  ;  I  was  formerly,  for  eight  years,  collector  of  internal  revenue 
for  the  District  of  Columbia. 

Q.  Mr.  Tullock,  I  find  your  name  appended  to  a  paper  to  which  I  de¬ 
sire  to  call  your  attention,  and  to  ask  whether  it  is  there  by  your  au¬ 
thority? — A.  lres,sir;  thatis  my  name  there;  all  I  can  say  about  it  is,  Mr. 
Wall  called  upon  me  and  informed  me  that  I  had  been  appointed  one  of 
the  auditors  of  a  certain  society,  an  emigrant  society,  it  appeared ;  but  I 
have  not  attended  any  of  the  meetings  of  the  society  and  know  nothing  of 
its  organization  or  management,  any  further  than  that  I  was  told  that  it 
was  an  organization  for  the  purpose  of  helping  needy  colored  emi¬ 
grants  ;  but  I  have  never  seen  any  of  the  emigrants,  and  know  nothing 
about  the  matter.  I  was  informed  that  I  was  chosen  auditor,  and  that 
is  all. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  that  you  never  saw  this  paper  before  ? — A.  I 
have  no  recollection  of  ever  having  seen  it. 

Q.  And  were  not  apprised  of  its  contents  ? — A.  I  have  not  read  it ;  I 
did  not  sign  it ;  I  would  not  have  signed  my  name  by  the  designation 
“  honorable.”  Lt  may  be  that  1  inquired  something  in  regard  to  the  or¬ 
ganization,  but  I  have  not  read  the  paper  and  did  not  know  the  tenor 
of  it. 

Q.  What  was  the  position  that  you  assumed  on  Mr.  Wall’s  recommen¬ 
dation  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  that  I  assumed  any  particular  position;  he 
informed  me  that  I  was  appointed  a  member  of  the  board  of  auditors  ot 
the  Emigrant  Aid  Society. 

Q.  What  were  the  duties  of  that  office? — A.  I  presume  that  in  any 
expenditure  that  might  be  made  the  auditor  would  have  to  examine  the 
accounts,  and  certify  to  their  correctness. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  this  information  conveyed  to  you  by  Mr.  A  all, 
that  you  had  been  appointed  a  member  of  the  board  of  auditors  ? — A  ,  It 
was  perhaps  two  or  threee  months  ago — some  little  time  before  these 

1  EX 


2 


NEGRO  EXODUS  h  ROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


people,  these  colored  emigrants,  came  to  this  city.  I  could  not  speak 
definitely  as  to  the  exact  time. 

Q.  Did  you  perform  any  duties  as  member  of  the  board  of  auditors? 
— A.  1  did  not,  with  this  exception  :  on  two  or  three  occasions  Mr.  Wall 
brought  me  orders  on  the  treasurer  for  me  to  sign — to  authorize  the 
treasurer  to  advance  some  money  for  the  purchase  of  tickets  for  certain 
emigrants.  That  is  all  the  official  duty  I  have  ever  performed. 

Q.  To  whom  were  these  orders  addressed? — A.  To  the  treasurer  of 
the  society. 

Q.  Who  was  the  treasurer  of  the  society?— A.  The  orders  were  ad¬ 
dressed  to  Mr.  A.  M.  Clapp;  he  was  the  treasurer. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  sums  of  money  that  you  authorized  him  to 
advance? — A.  I  could  not  state  definitely;  I  think  I  have  signed  three 
orders. 

Q.  Have  you  ah  idea  of  the  amount  or  the  approximate  amount  of 
each  of  these  orders? — A.  I  could  not  state  definitely;  I  think  perhaps 
they  amounted  to  $400  in  all. 

Q.  At  what  time  were  these  orders  given  ? — A.  1  could  not  state  defi¬ 
nitely  ;  within  the  last  six  weeks,  1  think. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  as  to  what  source  that  money  was  de¬ 
rived  from — that  fund  on  which  you  drew  ? — A.  1  have  no  knowledge 
further  than  that  a  collection  was  taken  up  in  the  church  w  ith  which  I 
am  connected  to  aid  the  emigrants.  They  received  about  thirty  or  forty . 
dollars  from  that  source. 

Q.  What  church  is  that  ? — A.  The  Metropolitan  Methodist  Episcopal 
Church  of  this  city.  Probably  there  were  collections  taken  up  in  the 
other  churches  ;  I  have  understood  there  w  ere. 

Q.  Was  that  the  time  when  there  was  a  large  party  of  these  people 
in  the  city  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  They  were  said  to  be  here,  and  in  a  destitute 
condition  ;  and  I  signed  an  order  for  the  money  to  procure  tickets  for 
their  transportation. 

Q.  You  yourself  took  no  pains  to  ascertain  their  actual  necessities,  or 
how'  they  came  to  be  here  destitute? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  acted  upon  the  representation  of  others  in  wffiom  you  had  con¬ 
fidence? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  cautioned  the.  president  and  secretary  to  take 
proper  vouchers  when  they  purchased  the  tickets.  The  emigrants  were 
here,  and  had  to  leave  that  night;  I  had  no  time  to  investigate. 

The  chairman  proposed  to  submit  the  paper  to  the  committee  as  evi¬ 
dence,  but  a  member  of  the  committee  objected,  and  the  chairman  agreed 
that  it  would  be  well  first  to  identify  the  paper,  and  lay  a  proper  founda¬ 
tion  for  its  introduction  ;  wdiicli  was  accordingly  done  by  the  following 
brief  examination  of  Mr.  Wall : 

TESTIMONY  OF  O.  S.  B.  WALL. 

O.  S.  B.  Wall  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Mr.  Wall,  I  wish  you  to  identify  this  paper.  State  whether 
you  are  familiar  with  this  paper,  and  whether  it  is  signed  by  authority 
with  your  name  and  the  names  of  others? — Answer.  Those  are  my  sen¬ 
timents,  and  it  was  at  my  instance  that  this  was  gotten  up. 

Q.  You  recognize  it  as  genuine  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  a  good  one — good 
sense,  and  I  am  not  ashamed  of  it. 

Q.  We  are  not  asking  as  to  whether  you  are  ashamed  of  it  or  not; 
only  whether  you  identify  it  as  being  a  genuine  paper  issued  by  you  ? — 
A.  A  es,  sir ;  that  is  the  paper.  (See  appendix,  Exhibit  A.) 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 
MR.  TULLOCK  RECALLED. 


3 


Q.  Mr.  Tullock,  as  I  understand  you,  you  did.  not  sigu  this  paper* 
you  signed  no  paper? — A.  No,  sir  5  except  those  three  orders  on  the 
treasurer. 

Q.  I  mean  no  paper  approving  the  organization  ?— A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  all  you  have  ever  had  to  do  with  the  matter  was  that  Mr. 
Wall  asked  you  to  act,  in  connection  with  others,  as  a  member  of  the 
board  of  audit,  and  you  consented.  That  is  the  way  your  name  comes 
to  stand  authorized  here.  Then,  in  pursuance  of  your  duties,  you  signed 
upon  the  treasurer  three  warrants,  amounting  in  all  to  about  $400,  to 
relieve  these  colored  people  that  were  stranded  here  for  want  of  money 
some  six  weeks  ago.— A.  That  is  the  way,  sir. 

Q.  Is  this  the  first  time  you  ever  heard  this  paper  read  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  110  knowledge  of  its  contents  before  this  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  know  of  its  being  circulated  ! — A.  I  had  no  knowledge 
whatever  concerning  it. 

Q.  Then  this  is  your  first  knowledge  of  this  paper,  and  of  your  name 
being  appended  to  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  you  did  was  to  sign  these  orders  on  the  treasurer,  amounting  in 
all  to  some  $400  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  as  to  the  amount,  the  orders  will  show 
for  themselves ;  I  only  approximate. 


By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  I  do  not  understand  you  to  disclaim  sympathy  with  the  move¬ 
ment,  but  only  to  disclaim  any  practical  connection  with  it? — A.  No, 
sir;  I  have  attended  none  of  its  meetings  and  know  nothing  concerning 
its  organization  or  its  management;  1  only  permitted  my  name  to  be 
used  as  one  of  the  auditors  of  the  society. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  You  do  not  affirm  any  knowledge  of  the  facts  stated  in  this  paper — 
of  the  facts  on  which  it  is  based? — A.  No,  sir;  as  I  have  said,  I  had 
nothing  to  do  with  the  organization,  and  I  have  never  discussed  the 
subject. 


TESTIMONY  OF  J.  W.  RANKIN. 

J.  W.  Rankin  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  State  where  you  reside.— Answer.  In  this  city. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  here  ? — A.  A  little  over  ten  years. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation  ? — A.  I  am  pastor  of  the  First  Congre¬ 
gational  Church. 

Q.  Have  you  been  pastor  of  it  for  that  length  of  time '? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  looked  at  this  paper  ? — A.  I  have  heard  it  read  tor  th  e 
first  time  this  morning. 

Q.  State  how  your  name  comes  to  be  attached  to  that  paper. — A.  I 
was  requested  to  act  as  auditor,  and  consented. 

Q.  Upon  whose  application  ?— A.  Upon  the  application  of  Mr.  Wall. 

Q.  How  long  ago? — A.  I  cannot  tell  exactly;  it  was  some  time  in  the 
fall — early  last  fall ;  a  number  of  mouths  ago,  at  least. 

Q.  Have  you  acted  in  the  capacity  of  auditor  ! — A.  I  have  signed 
probably  four  or  five  orders,  as  Mr.  Tullock  has. 

Q.  Orders  upon  whom  ? — A.  Upon  Mr.  Clapp,  as  treasurer. 


4 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Have  you  familiarized  your  mind  with  this  subject  of  the  Emigrant 
Aid  Society  ? — A.  No  further  than  it  has  been  a  matter  of  discussion 
in  the  papers.  I  have  also  seen  some  written  letters  from  the  South 
and  some  from  the  North. 

Q.  I  am  speaking  of  the  Emigrant  Aid  Society  of  this  city;  are  you 
acquainted  with  its  operations  ? — A.  I  am  not. 

Q.  Have  you  never  read  or  heard  this  paper  before? — A.  I  have  not; 
I  knew  what  the  general  drift  and  import  of  it  was. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  widely  circulated  this  was,  or  any  circular  like 
this? — A.  I  do  not;  I  know  nothing  about  it ;  I  should  presume  it  was 
printed  for  circulation,  but  I  have  never  seen  it  in  circulation. 


TESTIMONY  OF  J.  W.  CROMWELL. 

J.  AY.  Cromwell  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  State  your  name  and  residence. — Answer.  My  name  is  J.  VY. 
Cromwell,  and  I  reside  in  the  city  of  Washington. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  here? — A.  About  nine  years. 

Q.  In  what  business  are  you  engaged  ? — A.  I  am  a  clerk  in  the  • 
Treasury  Department. 

Q.  In  what  branch? — A.  In  the  Sixth  Auditor’s  Office. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  there?— A.  Since  November  2,  1S72. 

Q.  I  find  your  name  appended  to  this  paper;  please  state  to  the  com¬ 
mittee  how  it  comes  to  be  there— whether  by  your  authority  or  not. — 
A.  It  is  there  by  my  consent. 

Q.  To  whom  did  you  give  that  consent? — A.  To  Mr.  Adams,  the  sec¬ 
retary  of  the  society  ;  he  requested  me  to  act  as  one  of  the  board  of 
audit. 

Q.  Have  you  acted  in  that  capacity  ? — A.  I  have. 

Q.  In  what  way? — A.  In  the  way  of  signing  drafts  on  the  treasurer 
of  the  society. 

Q.  Is  that  all  you  have  done  in  this  matter  ? — A.  That  is  all  I  have 
done  in  that  capacity. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  this  paper  ? — A.  I  have  had  a  copy  of  it. 

Q.  You  have  read  it  ? — A.  A  portion  of  it ;  I  have  not  read  it  from 
beginning  to  end. 

Q,  Where  were  you  born  ? — A.  In  Virginia. 

Q.  How  old  were  you  when  you  left  Virginia? — 4.  I  was  five  years 
old  when  I  left  it  in  the  first  instance. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go  from  there? — A.  To  the  city  of  Philadelphia. 

Q.  Have  you  lived  in  the  North  ever  since? — A.  No,  sir;  I  lived  in 
the  North  up  to  1865,  wLen  I  returned  to  Virginia. 

Q.  AA  ere  you  appointed  to  the  Treasury  from  Virginia? — A.  I  was. 

Q.  From  what  part  of  Virginia  ? — A.  From  the  second  Congressional 
district — on  competitive  examination. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  in  Indiana?— A.  1  have  not. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  in  North  Carolina  ?— A.  I  have  bee  >  hree; 
lour  or  five  years  ago  I  went  on  an  excursion  to  Weldon  ;  that  is  all 
I  have  ever  been  in  North  Carolina. 

By  Air.  Blair: 

Q.  You  say  you  returned  to  Virginia  in  ISG5  ?—  A.  Yes,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


5 


Q.  And  returned  to  Washington,  in  1872 ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  part  of  Virginia  did  you  reside  ? — A.  In  Portsmouth. 

Q.  Were  you  engaged  in  business  there  ?— A.  I  was  engaged  in  teach¬ 
ing  in  the  public  schools,  and  under  some  charitable  associations  from 
the  North. 

Q.  You  say  you  became  a  clerk  in  the  Treasury  as  the  result  of  a  com¬ 
petitive  examination  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  competitors  did  you  have  ? — A.  Well,  that  day  there 
were  fortv-five. 

c/ 

Q.  To  what  position  were  you  assigned  ? — A.  To  a  first  class  clerk¬ 
ship. 

Q.  Do  you  hold  the  same  position  now? — A.  No,  sir;  I  hold  a  third- 
class  clerkship  now. 

Q.  You  say  you  authorized  your  name  to  be  affixed  to  this  paper,  and 
consented  to  act  in  the  capacity  of  auditor? — A.  I  did. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  more  of  the  reasons  for  the  organization 
of  this  society  than  appear  there  in  the  paper  itself?  What  do  you 
know,  anyway,  about  this  exodus  ? — A.  The  first  I  knew  about  the 
exodus  was  by  the  telegraphic  dispatches  in  the  newspapers  last  spring. 
In  May  a  national  conference  of  colored  men  was  held  in  Nashville, 
Term.,  which  I  attended,  and  of  which  I  was  secretary.  There  were 
men  present  there  from  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  Alabama,  and  in  fact 
all  the  Southwestern  States.  I  was  surprised  to  find  such  a  unanimity 
of  feeling  on  the  part  of  the  conference  in  favor  of  emigration  from  the 
Southwest.  There  was  a  positive  furore  about  it;  so  much  so  that  some 
of  the  other  business  for  which  the  conference  was  called  could  not  be 
attended  to. 

Q.  What  were  the  leading  objects  of  that  conference? — A.  To  dis¬ 
cuss  the  status  of  the  colored  people  of  the  South,  and  the  oppressions 
to  which  they  were  subjected,  and  to  devise  remedies  for  the  evils  un¬ 


der  which  they  labored. 

Q.  Was  it  a  convention  of  colored  delegates  exclusively  ? — A.  It  was 
a  conference  of  colored  men  exclusively. 

Q.  Well,  go  on  and  state  what  was  done  at  that  convention. — A. 
A  committee  was  appointed  on  the  exodus,  or  on  emigration,  as  it  was 
then  termed.  They  considered  the  matter,  and  adopted  a  report  which 
counseled  moderation  on  the  part  of  the  people.  But  from  letters  which 
I  have  received  from  different  portions  of  the  South  since  then,  and 
from  newspapers  published  in  various  parts  of  the  South,  I  see  that  the 
feeling  has  not  abated  at  all,  bu*t  merely  held  in  abeyance. 

Q.  You  say  there  was  a  furore  in  that  convention,  or  conference,  on 
the  subject  of  emigration  ;  what  was  the  origin  or  cause  of  that  lurore  ? 
— A.  Well,  it  had  its  origin  in  the  complaints  of  the  colored  people. 

Q.  What  complaints? — A.  Principally  that  they  did  not  have  an 
opportunity  to  get  the  results  of  their  labor  as  they  thought  they  should 
have;  they  had  been  struggling  there  ever  since  emancipation,  and 
found  themselves  at  the  close  of  every  year  as  far  behind,  as  deeply  in 
debt,  as  at  the  beginning  of  the  year;  they  thought  it  necessary  to 
make  some  sort  of  a  change,  and  they  thought  they  might  find  some 
change  in  emigration.  They  then  seemed  to  be  bound  tor  Kansas. 

Q.  Was  any  other  cause  of  complaint  mentioned  ! — A.  Tes,  sir;  bull¬ 
dozing.  *  T 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  “bull-dozing'';  what  specific  things  .  A.  In 

the  first  place,  they  complained  of  high  land-rent,  the  exactions  of  t  ic 
country  storekeepers,  the  unfairness  of  the  merchants  to  v horn  the} 


6 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


sent  their  crops,  and  the  political  persecution  to  which  they  were  sub¬ 
jected.  These  were  their  principal  complaints. 

Q.  How  general  were  these  complaints  ;  over  how  large  an  extent  of 
territory  did  these  causes  of  complaint  exist,  according  to  the  statements 
of  the  gentlemen  present  at  the  convention  ? — A.  There  were  complaints 
there  from  Tennessee,  Arkansas,  Alabama,  Mississippi,  and  Louisiana. 
There  were  some  few  men  present  who  spoke  against  the  exodus,  but 
that  seemed  to  get  for  them  considerable  unpopularity  at  the  time. 

Q.  The  point  to  which  I  wish  to  direct  your  attention  is  this:  Was 
there  any  difference  of  opinion  as  to  the  question  of  fact,  or  was  the 
difference  of  opinion  only  with  regard  to  the  remedies;  were  these  causes 
universally  conceded  to  be  true,  or  were  they  denied  by  some  % — A.  They 
were  universally  conceded  to  be  true;  but  there  was  a  difference  of 
opinion  as  to  the  remedy. 

Q.  How  large  a  convention  was  that? — A.  It  had  a  membership  of 
about  one  hundred  and  forty,  I  should  say,  in  round  numbers. 

Q.  Was  there  anything  said  at  that  convention,  or  developed  there,  cal¬ 
culated  to  show  any  connection  between  this  feeling  at  the  8011th  and  any 
political  party  at  the  North  ? — A.  There  was  not.  I  can  state  in  regard 
to  that  very  positively,  for  it  was  stated  in  the  first  instance  that  it  was 
not  to  be  considered  in  any  respect  a  political  conference.  I  recollect* 
that  one  of  the  members  present  from  Alabama  offered  a  resolution  in 
regard  to  General  Grant,  and  it  was  immediately  tabled  ;  it  was  referred 
to  a  committee,  and  no  report  ever  made  upon  it. 

Q.  Was  there  manifested  there  any  effort,  open  or  secret,  from  any 
Northern  agency,  to  influence  the  action  of  the  convention,  either  Re¬ 
publican  or  Democratic  ?— A.  Not  that  I  ever  discovered. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anything  tending  to  show  that  this  exodus  move¬ 
ment  originated  in  political  motives  on  the  part  of  any  Northern  peo¬ 
ple  ? — A.  1  do  not. 

Q.  You  understand  the  only  cause  to  be  the  complaints  of  the  colored 
people  themselves? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  because  they  failed  to  receive 
that  recognition  to  which  they  think  they  are  entitled. 

Q.  About  what  was  the  numerical  proportion  of  those  in  that  conven¬ 
tion  who  favored  the  exodus,  as  compared  with  those  who  did  not? — A. 
At  least  two-thirds  of  the  whole  number  were  in  favor  of  the  exodus. 


By  Mr.  Windom: 

Q.  ^  hat  remedy  did  the  other  one-third  propose,  if  any  ? — A.  Some 
thought  that  the  colored  people  ought  to  wait  a  little  longer,  and  appeal 
to  the  local  sentiment  for  more  consideration;  they  thought  that  some¬ 
thing  might  be  secured  in  that  way. 


By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  r\0Q  say  that  this  was  the  first  you  knew  of  the  exodus  movement  ? 
— A.  The  first  1  knew  of  the  movement  was  from  what  I  read  in  the 
newspapers  last  spring. 

Q.  You  attended  that  convention? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  given  in  substance  the  proceedings  of  the  convention  ? — 
A.  1  think  so.  A  report  of  the  proceedings  was  made  out  and  printed. 
I  can  send  a  copy  to  every  member  of  the  committee,  if  they  desire. 

Q.  A  011  have  known  something  of  the  progress  of  the  exodus  move¬ 
ment  since  that  time?— A.  Yes,  sir;  something. 

Q.  Go  on  and  state  what  you  know  about  it,  as  if  you  were  telling  a 
friend  ;  for  that  is  what  you  are  doing.  Nobod v  here  is  disposed  to  take 
any  technical  advantage  of  anything  you  may  say.— A.  Since  the  ad¬ 
journment  of  the  conference,  there  have,  I  understand,  been  organiza- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


7 


tions  effected  in  some  portions  of  the  South.  In  Texas  an  organization 
has  been  effected  with  what  they  call  emigration  commissioners.  To  my 
surprise,  I  got  a  letter  from  one  of  them  on  Saturday,  stating  what  he 
was  doing. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  private  in  that  letter?— A.  Nothing  whatever. 

Q.  Can  we  have  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  (See  appendix,  Exhibit  B.)  I  might 
state  in  this  connection  that  I  am  publishing  a  paper  here,  and  that 
there  have  been  communications  in  it  from  time  to  time  from  different 
portions  of  the  South  in  regard  to  the  exodus. 

Q.  Go  on  and  state  what  further  you  know  about  the  exodus  move¬ 
ment. — A.  Well,  there  has  been  an  organized  effort  in  Texas,  of  which 
[  have  spoken.  A  good  many  have  left  Louisiana  and  Mississippi ;  and 
I  have  seen  it  stated  that  quite  a  number  more  are  likely  to  leave  in  the 
spring. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  u  quite  a  number  r?  That  is  quite  indefi¬ 
nite. — A.  I  could  not  state  definitely.  I  would  not  be  surprised  if  twice 
as  many  left  there  next  spring  as  left  last  spring. 

Q.  How  many  left  last  spring? — A.  I  should  say  that  there  went  from 
that  section  to  Kansas  about  8,000. 

Q.  And  you  understand  that  double  that  number  intend  going  next 
spring? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is,  from  Mississippi  and  Louisiana  ? — A.  From  contiguous 
portions  of  those  two  States— from  the  counties  along  the  Mississippi 
River. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  or  information  as  to  the  probable  migra¬ 
tion  from  Texas  ? — A.  None  whatever. 

Q.  They  are  already  migrating  from  there  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  have  seen 
it  stated  in  the  newspapers  that  they  are  leaving  there  at  the  rate  of 


thousands  a  week. 

Q.  To  what  point  do  these  Mississippi  and  Louisiana  emigrants  go  ? — 
A.  Mostly  to  Kansas. 

Q.  You  do  not  understand  that  any  portion  of  them  go  to  Indiana  ? — A. 
No,  sir.  When  Perry  and  Williams,  the  two  men  at  the  head  ol  the 
North  Carolina  exodus,  first  came  here  last  fall,  they  were  contemplating 
going  to  Kansas  too. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  further  with  reference  to  this  exodus  move¬ 
ment  in  other  States  where  there  are  organizations,  or  anything  is  being 
done  ? — A.  In  Tennessee  they  have  an  organization. 

Q.  How  extensive  an  organization  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  how  exten¬ 
sive.  There  are  two  papers  published  there  in  the  interest  of  this  move¬ 
ment.  One  of  them  advocates  migration  to  Texas.  I  believe  1  have 
one  of  these  papers  with  me — yes,  here  it  is.  This  paper,  called  the 
Co-operative  Emigrant,  was  started,  I  understand,  tor  that  express  pur¬ 
pose:  it  is  published  at  Clarksville,  Term. 

Q.  Is  that  a  portion  of  the  State  where  the  colored  population  is  nu¬ 
merous  ? — A.  I  should  presume  so ;  I  am  uot  thoroughly  informed  on 
that  point.  Here  is  another  paper  which  advocates  emigration,  pub¬ 
lished  at  Nashville,  Tenn.;  it  is  called  the  Emigration  Herald  and  >  i  o  . 

Q.  Are  the  persons  managing  these  papers  colored  gentlemen  .—A. 

Yres,  sir  ;  they  are. 


that 

some  extent — I  do  not  know  to  what  extent — by  an  association  m  Bos¬ 
ton  called  the  National  Farmers’  Association.  ^ 

Q.  Is  that  association  devoted  to  the  interests  ot  the  colored  csi 


8 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


cially,  or  of  farming  interests  generally  ? — A.  It  is  devoted  to  encourag¬ 
ing  the  exodus,  I  understand — not  to  Kansas,  but  to  certain  portions  of 
Texas. 

Q.  Does  this  Boston  company  own  lands  do.wn  there? — A.  I  think 
they  have  an  interest  in  some  lands  lying  in  that  portion  of  Texas 
which  is  nearest  the  Indian  Territory  and  Kansas,  or  between  them  and 
Mexico. 

Q.  In  that  portion  known  as  the  u  pan-handle”  ? — A.  I  do  not  know 
as  to  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  migration,  on  any  general  or  extensive  scale, 
from  Tennessee  to  any  Northern  State? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Has  that  Boston  organization  been  started  recently  ? — A.  It  has 
been  in  existence  for  over  a  year. 

Q.  Has  it  been  in  any  sense  a  political  organization  ? — -A.  Not  at  all, 
as  I  understand  it. 

Q.  It  is  entirely  an  industrial  and  business  organization  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  else  in  the  way  of  emigration  being  done  in  Ten¬ 
nessee  % — A.  Not  that  1  know  of. 

Q.  In  regard  to  these  emigration  organizations,  what  is  the  method 
or  plan  upon  which  they  are  organized  ? — xY  You  will  find  the  plan  set 
forth  in  the  proceedings  of  the  national  congress  or  conference  at  Nash¬ 
ville  that  I  tirst  spoke  of. 

Q.  Are  these  secret  societies  in  any  sense  ? — A.  O,  no.  I  have  seen 
in  some  of  the  newspapers  that  there  are  secret  societies  in  North  Car¬ 
olina,  but  they  have  nothing  to  do  with  these  organizations.  1  know 
nothing  about  them. 

Q.  Are  you  connected  with  any  society  for  the  promotion  of  the  exo¬ 
dus  movement  ? — A.  No,  sir,  except  this  association  here. 

Q.  Is  that  a  secret  society  '? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  secret  society  organized  for  the  promotion  of 
the  exodus  movement  ? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  us  any  more  in  regard  to  the  probable  emigration  from 
Tennessee  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  that  I  can. 

Q.  As  I  understand  you,  the  emigration  from  Tennessee  is  directed,  in 
part  at  least,  to  Texas  l — A.  No,  I  mean  to  sav  that  that  paper  which 
is  published  in  Tennessee — the  Co-operative  Emigrant — is  devoted  to 
the  encouragement  of  migration  to  Texas.  To  what  extent  that  paper 
is  exerting  an  influence  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  large  its  circulation  is? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  circulation  of  the  other  paper  ? — 
A.  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  regarding  the  migration  from  Alabama  ? — 
A.  I  know  that  quite  a  number  have  gone  from  Alabama  to  Southern 
Illinois. 

Q.  About  how  many  ? — A.  I  have  seen  a  statement  in  a  paper  pub¬ 
lished  in  Louisiana  that  at  least  500  had  secured  homes  in  Southern  Illi¬ 
nois  through  the  influence  of  a  young  man  by  the  name  of  Gladden. 

Q.  Where  does  he  live  ?— A.’  At  Cairo,  Ilf. 

Q-  Is  he  a  white  man  or  colored  ? — xY  He  is  a  colored  man. 

Q.  A  hat  is  his  employment  ? — A.  Securing  homes  for  these  people. 

Q.  How  old  is  lie  l — A.  I  do  not  know  his  age. 

Q.  Is  he  an  educated  man  ?— A.  I  presume  he  is. 

Q-  Before  he  went  to  securing  homes  for  the  colored  people  what  was 
his  employment  ? — A.  A\  hen  he  was  at  Mobile  he  was  agent  for  a  paper 
published  in  New  Orleans  by  the  name  of  the  New  Orleans  Observer; 
afterward  he  left  and  asked  to  be  an  agent  for  my  paper. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


9 


Q.  You  have  seen  him,  then  ? — A.  No,  sir;  he  asked  by  letter.  I 
wrote  to  him  in  answer  to  his  letter,  and  it  was  quite  a  time  before  I 
got  a  reply;  then  he  wrote  to  me  that  he  had  moved  to  Illinois,  and  I 
saw  afterward  in  the  Observer  the  statement  that  he  had  settled  about 
500  colored  people  in  Southern  Illinois. 

Q.  From  what  part  of  the  South  did  they  come  ? — A.  From  Alabama, 
I  understood. 

Q.  From  the  southern  portion  of  the  State  ? — A.  I  presume  from  the 
southern  portion  ;  he  was  from  Mobile. 

Q.  Do  you  know  over  what  route  they  came? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  whose  means  carried  them  there  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  emigration  from  Georgia? — A.  No  ; 
I  don’t  know  anything  about  Georgia. 

Q.  Were  there  any  delegates  from  Georgia  in  that  convention  ? — A. 
There  were. 


Q.  Did  they  make  the  same  general  complaint  as  to  facts  that  the 
others  did? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  know  nothing  of  any  exodus  from  Georgia? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  any  contemplated  exodus  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  methods  or  plans  to  secure  one? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  papers  published  in  Georgia  devoted  to  the 
advocacy  of  emigration  from  that  State  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  any  such  movement  in  Florida? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  to  my  surprise  I  received  information  of  such  a  movement  on 
Saturday;  I  know  it  because  of  an  appeal  published  in  a  paper  called 
the  Key  W  est  Dispatch,  from  Leon  County  I  think. 

Q.  Have  you  a  copy  of  that  paper? — A.  I  have  not. 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  that  appeal  ? — A.  It  recited  the  same 
■  general  facts  that  have  been  stated  with  regard  to  those  other  States, 
and  expressed  the  opinion  that  the  only  way  to  secure  relief  was  by  emi¬ 
gration  to  some  part  of  the  North. 

Q.  Was  anybody  from  Florida  present  at  that  national  convention  ? — 
A.  There  was  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  more  about  the  matter  in  Florida? — A.  I 
do  not.  I  know  one  of  the  men  whose  names  are  attached  to  the  appeal. 

Q.  What  is  his  name? — A.  Pierce;  the  Rev.  Charles  Pierce. 

Q.  Where  does  he  reside? — A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Will  you  ascertain  his  address,  and  furnish  it  to  the  chairman  ? — 

A.  I  will. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  prominent  colored  men  in  Florida  who 
are  engaged  in  this  movement  ? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  us  any  more  about  the  movement  in  Florida  ? — A.  I 


cannot. 

Q.  What  about  South  Carolina  ?— A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about 
South  Carolina. 

Q.  What  about  Kentucky  ?— A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  any 
exodus  from  Kentucky. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  there  is  any  probability  of  an  exodus 
from  that  State ;  have  you  heard  any  complaints  from  there  .  A. 
know  of  no  general  complaint  from  there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  Arkansas  ? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  What  about  Virginia,  your  own  State;  do  you  know  anything 
about  an  exodus  movement  from  that  State  ? — A.  I  do  not  think  it  \ei  \ 


.ikely. 

Q.  What  about  North  Carolina  ?- 


A.  I  know 


nothing 


more  than  I 


10 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


have  said.  I  saw  those  two  men  from  North  Carolina,  Williams  and 
Perry,  when  they  first  came  here. 

Q.  You  came  in  contact,  I  take  it,  more  or  less,  with  those  people 
who  passed  through  Washington  ? — A.  Only  to  a  very  slight  extent.  I 
saw  Williams  and  Perry.  When  the  emigrants  were  here  I  went  to  the 
church  where  they  were  staying  only  twice. 

Q.  How  many  passed  through  here  ? — A.  I  have  no  accurate  idea.  I 
should  suppose,  perhaps,  800. 

Q.  Who  were  those  people — families  or  usually  only  men  ? — A.  The 
first  batch,  the  one  that  passed  through  here  on  the  19th  of  November 
(I  think  that  was  the  date,  because  that  was  the  day  when  the  Thomas 
statue  was  unveiled),  consisted  almost  exclusively  of  men. 

Q.  How  many  were  there  in  that  company  ? — A.  I  think  there  were  51. 

Q.  How  many  of  these  were  men  ? — A.  Thirty-four,  if  I  remember 
rightly. 

Q.  And  the  rest  were  women  ? — A.  Women  and  children. 

Q.  Then  that  first  company  of  emigrants  consisted  of  51  persons,  of 
whom  31  were  men  and  the  rest  women  and  children  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  these  men  middle-aged,  or  young  men  mostly? — A.  My  im¬ 
pression  is  that  they  were,  in  the  main,  middle-aged  men.  I  think  their 
average  age  would  be  below  forty. 

Q.  Where  did  they  come  from  ? — A.  They  came  from  the  neighbor¬ 
hood  of  Kingston,  N.  C.» 

Q.  Were  they  from  various  portions  of  the  State,  or  from  a  single 
locality  ?—  A.  My  understanding  was  that  they  did  not  come  from  va¬ 
rious  portions  of  the  State,  but  from  the  vicinity  of  Kingston. 

Q,  Where  were  they  going? — A.  To  Indiana. 

Q  Did  they  state  to  you  why  they  left  North  Carolina,  aud  why  they 
were  going  to  Indiana  ? — A.  They  said  an  agent  of  theirs  had  been  out 
to  Indiana,  and  had  returned;  and  they  were  going  out  in  pursuance  of 
arrangements  made  by  him. 

Q.  But  why  had  they  send  out  this  agent?  Why  did  they  desire  to 
leave  North  Carolina? — A.  On  account  of  the  disadvantages  under 
which  they  labored  there. 

Q.  Of  what  disadvantages  did  they  complain  ? — A.  They  said  they 
could  not  get  a  sufficient  amount  of  money  for  their  work  ;  that  was  the 
burden  of  their  complaint. 

Q.  The  trouble  was  not  in  getting  work,  but  in  getting  pay  for  it?— 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  pay  did  they  get? — A.  I  am  not  certain  as  to  that. 

Q.  Did  they  complain  of  any  lack  of  political  privileges,  or  of  indus¬ 
trial  necessities  chiefly? — A.  That  was  the  chief  motive,  as  I  under¬ 
stood  it. 

Q.  Did  any  of  them  state,  or  did  you  learn  in  any  way,  that  any  po¬ 
litical  party  was  endeavoring  to  induce  them  to  leave  tor  the  purpose 
of  influencing  the  election  in  Indiana? — A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  A  as  there  no  suggestion  or  secret  hint  of  any  such  thing  ? — A. 
Not  that  I  heard  of. 

Q.  That  was  the  first  company,  of  51;  how  many  companies  have 
gone  through  ? — A.  I  cannot  state  the  exact  number  ;  I  should  say  four 
at  least. 

Q.  A\  hen  did  the  next  one  arrive  here? — A.  I  cannot  state  exactly; 
I  should  say  in  the  early  part  of  December. 

Q.  How  many  were  there  in  that  company  ? — A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Did  you  see  them  ? — A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  they  make  any  stop  in  Washington  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  ;  one 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  11 

of  the  batches  made  no  stop ;  but  whether  it  was  this  one  or  not  I  am 
not  certain. 

Q.  Where  were  these  from — this  second  company? — A.  From  the  same 
general  locality  as  the  other,  I  understood. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  were  there  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  the  exact  num¬ 
ber;  between  one  and  two  hundred,  I  understood;  I  did  not  make  any 
note  of  it. 

Q.  How  was  the  party  made  up — of  about  the  same  proportion  of  men, 
women,  and  children  as  the  former? — A.  1  do  not  know  ;  I  did  not  see 
them,  and  I  never  heard  anything  about  that. 

Q.  When  did  the  next  company  come? — A.  About  a  week  later  a 
large  number  of  them  came,  and  reported  here  about  the  same  time. 

Q.  How  many  were  there  in  that  lot? — A.  I  heard  many  different 
reports  ;  I  should  conclude  about  300,  including  the  children. 

Q.  They  were  men  with  their  families? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  were  they  going  ? — A.  To  Indiana. 

Q.  Hid  you  hear  any  of  them  say  that  they  were  going  there  to  help 
carry  the  State  for  the  Republicans ?— A.  O,  no;  they  said  they  were 
going  there  to  get  work,  and  to  get  money  in  pay  for  their  work,  and 
not  orders  on  the  stores. 

Q.  Where  did  the  money  come  from  that  carried  them  there? — A. 
Much  of  it  came  from  collections  made  in  the  colored  churches. 

Q.  Where  did  the  money  come  from  that  brought  them  here? — A.  I 
do  not  know. 

Q.  When  they  got  here  they  were  stranded,  were  they? — A.  Ares,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  have  to  help  the  first  lot? — A.  We  did  help  them 
some. 

Q.  The  large  lot  was  out  of  money,  and  you  helped  them  on  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Hid  you  raise  enough  money  to  send  them  clear  through  to  In¬ 
diana  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Hid  you  buy  their  tickets  clear  through  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  W  as  anything  done  to  help  take  care  of  them  after  they  got  there? 
— A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Hid  they  receive  any  help  except  from  these  churches  of  which  you 
have  spoken  ? — A.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  You  have  now  spoken  of  three  companies,  I  think ;  when  did  the 
next  lot  come  through  here,  and  how  many  were  there  of  them  ? — A.  I 
heard  of  some — one  lot — that  came  and  went  right  on  through.  They 
paid  their  own  way  ;  I  do  not  know  how  many  there  were  of  them. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  You  say  that  when  those  two  men,  Perry  and  Williams,  first  came 
here  last  fall  in  connection  with  this  matter,  it  was  their  purpose  to  lead 
this  emigration  right  through  to  Kansas  ? — A.  It  was. 

Q.  But  they  changed  their  purpose,  and  decided  to  settle  their  emi¬ 
grants  in  Indiana  ?— A.  They  did. 

Q.  What  was  the  reason  of  that  change  ? — A.  So  far  as  I  understood, 
it  was  this  :  Kansas  is  a  new  State - 

Q.  Are  you  giving  now  your  own  reasons,  or  the  reasons  you  got 
from  Perry  and  Williams  ? — A.  I  am  giving  what  was  told  them. 

Q.  Told  them  by  whom  ? — A.  By  different  members  of  the  aid  so¬ 
ciety. 

Q.  Who  were  they  that  told  Perry  and  Williams  and  the  rest  to  go 
to  Indiana  instead  of  Kansas  ? — A.  I  think  the  secretary  of  the  asso¬ 
ciation. 


12 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Who  is  he  ?— A.  I  think  Mr.  Adams. 

Q.  Who  else! — A.  Well,  I  told  them  myself. 

Q.  Who  else? — A.  I  do  not  know  of  any  other  person  who  told  them. 

Q.  You  think  their  original  purpose  was  changed  by  this  emigrant 
aid  society,  of  which  you  are  a  member  '? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  reason  did  Mr.  Adams  give  for  changing  the  tide  of  emigra¬ 
tion  to  Indiana  instead  of  Kansas  '? — A.  That  they  could  get  work  in 
Indiana,  and  not  iu  Kansas. 

Q.  Why  could  they  get  work  in  Indiana  and  not  in  Kansas  ? — A.  Be¬ 
cause  Kansas  is  a  new  State ;  the  people  there  are  making  their  first 
struggles,  and  are  not  in  a  condition  to  employ  as  largely  as  in  an  old 
State  like  Indiana. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  in  Indiana  ? — A.  J  was  not. 

Q.  Then  you  did  not  know  whether  they  want  any  laborers  in  In¬ 
diana  in  the  winter-time  or  not  ? — A.  I  will  give  you  my  reason  for 
telling  them  to  go  to  Indiana  instead  of  Kansas. 

Q.  You  have  already  given  one  reason. — A.  Well,  there  was  another 
reason;  I  had  received  a  circular  from  Indiana. 

Q.  By  whom  was  that  circular  issued  ? — A.  By  J.  II.  Walker,  of  Terre 
Haute,  Ind. 

Q.  What  did  Mr.  Walker  say  in  that  circular  ? — A.  Be  stated  that 
there  was  a  great  demand  in  Indiana  for  laborers  ;  he  said  he  was  born 
in  Virginia;  he  said  it  had  been  said  that  the  climate  of  Indiana  was 
too  cold  tor  colored  men,  but  that  it  was  not  too  cold  for  him  ;  and  that 
as  many  people  as  would  come  there  could  find  good  homes,  and  be  paid 
for  their  work,  and  their  children  would  have  an  opportunity  to  go  to 
school. 

Q.  Had  you  this  circular  when  you  talked  with  Perry  and  Williams  ? 
— A.  1  had. 

Q.  Did  you  show  it  to  them  ? — A.  1  did. 

Q.  Had  Mr.  Adams  received  any  circular  from  anybody  in  Indiana  ? 
— A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  That  is  all  the  information  you  had  from  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  consequence  of  the  representations  of  this  circular  issued 
by  J.  II.  Walker,  of  Terre  Haute,  Ind.,  the  tide  of  emigration  was  stopped 
in  Indiana,  instead  of  going  on  to  Kansas  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  this  circular  state  that  there  was  any  call  for  colored  laborers 
in  Vigo  County  ? — A.  1  do  not  think  it  named  auy  counties. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  money  was  raised  for  each  passenger  from 
Washington  to  Indiana  '? — A.  I  think  the  railroad  company  charged  $9 
each. 

Q.  What  railroad  did  they  go  on  ? — A.  The  Baltimore  and  Ohio. 

Q.  That  company  took  them  at  reduced  rates  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A\  ho  was  managing  the  matter  for  the  road  ? — A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Dukehart,  passenger  agent  for  that  road? — A. 
1  have  seen  him. 

Q.  Did  you  see  him  in  connection  with  this  matter  ? — A.  I  did,  once. 

Q.  Was  he  then  making  this  arrangement  to  carry  these  negroes  to 
Indiana  ? — A.  1  do  not  know  whether  he  was  or  not. 

Q.  You  understand  that  the  road  made  reduced  rates,  and  took  them 
at  $9  a  head  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  the  money  raised  here  was  enough  to  comply  with  that 
arrangement  ?-— A.  Yes,  sir;  that  was  it. 

Q.  You  have  shown  us  a  paper,  called  the  Co-operative  Emigrant,  pub¬ 
lished  at  Clarksville,  Tenn.;  I  see  that  a  Dr.  A.  Aray,  is  the  editor  ;  do 
you  know  him  personally  ? — A.  I  do  not.  • 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


13 


Q.  Is  be  a  colored  man  ? — A.  lie  is. 

Q.  I  wish  to  read  to  you  an  article,  copied  into  this  paper,  with  the 
manifest  approval  of  the  editor,  from  the  Dallas  (Tex.)  Herald.  (See 
appendix,  Exhibit  C.)  Had  you  read  that  article  t — A.  I  had  not ;  I  had 
but  j list  received  the  paper. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  Are  articles  like  this  commonly  published  by  colored  men  in  their 
papers,  to  encourage  migration  to  the  north  ? 

Another  member  of  the  committee  suggested  that  the  Co-operative 
Emigrant  was  published  for  the  purpose  of  encouraging  emigration  from 
Tennessee  to  Texas,  and  that  is  south.  Some  discussion  arose  as  to  the 
limitations  of  the  investigation  ;  resulting  in  a  conclusion  to  give  it  the 
widest  latitude  consistent  with  a  fair  and  not  a  technical  rendering  of 
the  resolution  directing  the  investigation,  in  order  to  get  at  the  whole 
truth. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  About  this  Nashville  convention  or  conference,  how  was  it  called  ? 
Who  called  it  ?  From  whom  did  you  get  invitations  or  notices  to  attend? 
— A.  The  matter  of  calling  a  national  conference  of  colored  people  had 
been  discussed  lor  a  year  or  more. 

Q.  You  mean  in  the  colored  newspapers? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  there  was  nobody  in  authority  as  an  organization  that  called 
it?— A.  O,  no;  they  came  together  voluntarily  at  a  time  agreed  upon; 
about  a  hundred  and  fifty  men  were  present  at  the  time  and  place  which 
had  been  previously  appointed  by  some  one. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  who  that  “some  one”  was? — A.  O,  yes,  sir;  I 
know  who  that  some  one  was.  Ex-Governor  Pinch  back  and  myself 
drew  up  a  circular  letter,  some  time  in  January — -just  about  a  year  ago 
now — requesting  a  few  men  to  meet  us  at  a  certain  house  in  this  city, 
and  there  the  plan  of  calling  a  national  conference  was  discussed  and 
decided.  That  was  before  the  colored  people  had  beguu  to  leave  any 
of  the  Southern  States  to  any  considerable  extent. 

Q.  And  when  you  got  there  you  found  about  two-thirds  of  those 
present  in  favor  of  emigration  as  a  remedy  for  the  evils  under  which 
they  suffered,  and  about  one-third  opposed  to  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  was  no  division  on  the  question  of  fact,  as  to  whether  these 
evils  existed? — A.  None,  whatever. 

Q.  This  paper,  published  at  Clarksville,  Tenn.,  is  published  in  the  in¬ 
terests  of  a  land  association  in  Boston,  which  owns  land  in  Texas,  and 
wants  to  get  laborers  to  go  there  and  open  it  up? — A.  That  is  the  con¬ 
clusion  I  have  reached. 

Q.  And  this  paper  is  opposed  to  the  northern  exodus — to  emigration 
northward? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Cromwell,  you  are  an  intelligent  man  of  your  race,  and 
have  mingled  considerably  with  others  of  your  race;  now  please  state 
to  the  committee  what  is  the  scope  and  purpose  of  this  emigration  move¬ 
ment  ;  does  it  embrace  the  entire  colored  population  of  the  South,  with 
a  design  to  transport  them  elsewhere,  or  does  it  embrace  only  a  part,  and, 
if  so,  how  large  a  part  ? — A.  There  is  110  movement,  except  in  so  far  as 
it  is  entered  into  by  persons,  independently  of  each  other,  in  their  re¬ 
spective  localities.  No  colored  man  and  no  number  of  colored  men 
could  ever  have  orginated  this  movement.  It  was  spontaneous,  so  far 
as  its  origin  was  concerned. 

Q.  But  it  seems  to  have  been  easy  to  change  it  from  Kansas  to  In¬ 
diana? — A.  I  hope  you  would  not  call  a  movement  of  seven  or  eight 


14 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


hundred  persons,  from  one  or  two  counties  in  North  Carolina,  a  change 
in  the  emigration  movement  in  general,  when  others  are  going  to  Kan¬ 
sas,  and  others  to  Illinois. 

Q.  What  counties  in  North  Carolina  is  this  movement  from,  do  you 
understand? — A.  I  dofft  know  that  I  can  name  the  counties;  I  think 
the  most  of  them  are  from  the  neighborhood  of  Kingston,  Lenoir 
County. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  An  article  has  been  read  from  this  paper,  representing  the  suffer¬ 
ing,  the  destitution,  in  some  cases  the  starvation,  to  which  emigrants 
are  subjected  in  going  to  Kansas;  is  this  sort  of  tiling  pretty  generally 
reported  throughout  the  South  ?  Is  it  well  and  widely  known,  through 
those  who  have  gone  back,  and  through  the  papers  of  the  South,  that 
there  is  a  great  deal  of  suffering  and  hardship  attending  this  emigra¬ 
tion? — A.  1  do  not  know  that  I  understand  your  question. 

Q.  Are  the  reports  that  the  emigrants  suffer  from  hunger  and  cold 
and  bad  treatment  from  the  whites  at  the  North — are  these  reports 
carried  back  to  the  colored  people  of  the  South,  or  not? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
they  know  of  it,  through  the  papers. 

Q.  You  have  no  doubt  that  the  colored  people  of  Tennessee  have  ac¬ 
cess  to  this  information  ? — A.  Certainly  they  have. 

Q.  And  the  colored  people  of  Mississippi  and  of  Louisiana,  also  ? — 
A.  I  presume  so. 

Q.  And  yet,  notwithstanding  that,  I  understand  you  to  say  that  1(3,000 
colored  people  are  intending  to  leave  Louisiana  and  Mississippi,  in  place 
of  the  8,000  who  left  last  year  ? — A.  They  discount  those  statements 
somewhat;  they  believe  some  portions  of  them. 

Q.  You  have  no  doubt  that  the  colored  people  of  the  South  generally 
understand  that  they  must  undergo  some  hardship  and  some  ill-treat¬ 
ment  in  making  the  change? — A.  Certainly  they  do. 

Q.  And  notwithstanding  that,  this  emigration  is  on  the  increase? — 
A.  It  is  largely  on  the  increase. 

Q.  These  people  understand  this,  that  they  are  coming  north  to  get 
a  better  living,  to  secure  civil  rights,  and  to  educate  their  children  ? — 
A.  That  is  it. 

Q.  What  else  are  they  coming  north  for  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  of  any¬ 
thing  else. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  you  have  never  heard  that  any  politi¬ 
cal  party  of  any  section  of  the  North  was  at  the  bottom  of  the  move¬ 
ment  ? — A.  I  never  have. 

By  Mr.  WlNDOM : 

Q.  \ou  mentioned,  a  while  ago,  that  at  the  Nashville  convention  one 
oi  the  complaints  that  were  made  was  in  regard  to  political  persecution 
or  proscription;  what  was  the  character  ot  that  political  persecution  or 
proscription  ?  from  what  party  did  it  come? — A.  From  the  Demo¬ 
cratic  party. 

Q.  A\  hat  was  the  character  of  that  persecution  or  proscription  ;  in 
what  did  it  consist  ? — A.  In  “intimidating”  them,  as  it  was  generally 

expressed;  in  preventing  them  from  expressing  their  will  at  the  elec¬ 
tion. 

Q.  By  what  means — was  anything  said  as  to  that  ;  or  was  it  not  stated 
specifically  ?—  A.  It  was  stated  iu  general  terms  ;  the  term  “  bulldozing” 
was  quite  generally  used. 

Q.  The  chairman  has  read  an  extract  from  this  paper,  the  Co-opera¬ 
tive  Emigrant,  which  you  say  represents  the  interests  of  the  “  National 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


15 


Farmers’  Association,”  having  its  headquarters  in  Boston.  Now  I  wish 
to  read  an  extract  from  this  paper.  The  extract  is  copied  from  the 
Philadelphia  Times,  and  is  as  follows.  (See  appendix,  Exhibit  D.)  The 
chairman  has  also  suggested  that  the  article  read  by  him  from  this 
paper  is  indicative  of  the  sentiments  of  the  colored  people.  I  wish  to 
read  another  article,  quoted  by  this  paper  from  the  Indianapolis  Leader, 
a  paper  in  Indiana,  edited,  I  understand,  by  a  colored  gentleman,  and 
giving  the  cause  of  the  exodus.  I  wish  to  see  whether  you  agree  with 
him.  (See  appendix,  Exhibit  E.) 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  Does  that,  leaving  out  the  unfortunate  and  rather  harsh  expres¬ 
sions,  convey  the  general  idea  that  the  southern  colored  people  have  l — 
A.  I  think  it  does. 

By  Mr.  Vance  : 

Q.  In  that  convention  at  Nashville,  where  colored  men  were  com¬ 
plaining  of  their  treatment,  one  complaint  that  you  mentioned  was  high 
rent  of  land;  did  you  hear  any  allegation  that  colored  people  were 
charged  any  higher  rent  than  white  people  were  f — A.  (),  no,  sir;  they 
complained  of  relatively  high  rent,  as  compared  with  production. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  charge  of  discrimination  against  black  men  and 
in  favor  of  white  men  ?  or  were  their  complaints  simply  that  the  general 
market  value  of  land-rents  was  too  high,  and  the  general  habit  of  store¬ 
keepers  was  to  charge  too  much  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  of  any  special  ex¬ 
pression  upon  that  point. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Williams  and  Perrv  ? — A.  When  I  see  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  Williams  came  from  ? — A.  He  came  from 
North  Carolina,  I  understand. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  organization  he  is  the  agent  of? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  He  is  some  kind  of  an  agent,  is  he  not ! — A.  I  understand  that  he 
is  some  kind  of  an  agent. 

Q.  When  he  came  here  did  he  not  represent  himself  to  be  the  agent 
of  a  number  of  colored  people  in  North  Carolina  who  were  desirous  of 
emigrating! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  is  he  supported  while  engaged  in  this  work  ? — A.  I  do  not 
know. 

Q.  Who  pays  his  expenses  ? — A.  1  do  not  know. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  that  he  gets  so  much  per  head  for  every  emigrant 
he  secures  ? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  that  he  gets  a  commission  from  the  railroad  for 
every  colored  passenger  he  puts  on  the  train  ? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  He  must  be  supported  in  some  way. — A.  I  suppose  so. 

Q.  I  am  glad  to  hear  you  say  that  none  of  the  colored  people  from 
North  Carolina,  at  that  Nashville  convention,  complained  of  political 
wrongs. — A.  I  said  that  was  not  the  burden  of  their  complaint.  They 
complained  also  of  the  laws  relating  to  landlord  and  tenant,  which  pre¬ 
vented  them  from  selling  anything  they  had  raised  before  their  rent  was 
paid  ;  if  they  raise  anything  for  themselves,  they  are  prohibited  from 
selling  it  without  the  consent  of  the  owner  of  the  land. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything,  from  your  association  with  colored  men 
from  North  Carolina,  or  from  anything  published  in  the  papers,  as  to 
what  has  been  the  general  condition  of  the  colored  people  in  that  State 
for  the  past  four  or  live  years! — A.  I  should  conclude,  from  what  I  can 
learn,  that  their  condition  is  improving  in  the  larger  towns  and  cities. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Bishop  Hood,  the  bishop  of  the  Colored  Methodist 


16 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Church  in  that  State? — A.  I  do  not  know  him  personally  ;  1  know  his 
reputation. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  read  the  proceedings  of  the  conference  of  colored 
men  at  Salisbury,  in  1878? — A.  I  might  have  done  so ;  I  do  not  now 
remember  anything  particularly  in  reference  to  it. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  that  a  Democratic  legislature  appointed  colored 
justices  of  the  peace  in  various  parts  of  the  State  ? — A.  I  think  I  have 
so  understood. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  recently  asylums  have  been  built  for  the  insane 
and  the  blind  and  the  deaf  and  dumb  among  the  colored  people,  and 
normal  schools  for  the  education  of  colored  teachers? — A.  I  understand 
that  to  be  the  case. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  that  we  have  military  companies,  armed  and 
equipped,  composed  of  colored  men? — A.  I  understand  so  in  towns  and 
cities. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  that  the  colored  people  recently  held  a  State 
Industrial  Exhibition  at  Raleigh — the  first  ever  held  in  the  United 
States  by  colored  people? — A.  O,  no,  sir;  there  were  several  held  in 
the  United  States  before  that;  one  in  Tennessee,  at  Nashville  ;  one  at 
Lexington,  Ky. ;  and  one  at  Wilmington,  N.  C. 

Q.  Those  were  not  State  fairs? — A.  No,  sir;  not  State  fairs.  . 

Q.  Then  you  judge  that  the  condition  of  the  colored  people  in  North 
Carolina  is  improving  ? — A.  In  the  towns  and  cities,  yes. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q,.  I  notice  that  you  are  careful  to  qualify  jour  answer  by  saying, 
“in  the  towns  and  cities.”  How  is  it  with  regard  to  the  rest  of  the 
State? — A.  There  has  been  less  proper  payment  of  labor  in  the  country 
districts  than  in  the  towns  and  cities ;  that  is  why  I  make  the  qualifi¬ 
cation. 

By  Mr.  Vance  : 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  “  proper  payment  of  labor”  ?  Do  you  mean 
prices? — A.  I  refer  to  both  prices  and  manner.  I  understand  that  it 
is  the  general  custom  (at  least  those  men  who  came  here  from  North 
Carolina  said  so)  to  pay  them  in  orders  on  the  stores,  and  not  in 
money.  The  same  thing  is  sometimes  done,  to  a  certain  extent,  in  my 
own  State  of  Virginia. 

Q.  Wherein  does  that  work  any  hardship  ? — A.  When  a  laborer  is 
paid  in  orders  on  the  stores  he  cannot  divide  his  fund  and  say,  u  so 
much  I  will  use  for  this  purpose”  and  “  so  much  for  that”  and  uso 
much  for  another.”  All  has  to  be  taken  up  at  once,  in  such  goods  as 
are  in  the  store,  whether  he  wants  them  or  not,  and  at  such  prices  as 
the  storekeeper  chooses  to  fix:  and  this  practice  affords  a  storekeeper 
an  opportunity  to  charge  a  high  price  for  his  goods. 

Q.  Is  it  to  be  understood  that  he  embraces  the  opportunity  ? — A. 
That  is  the  impression  prevalent;  it  is  very  natural  that  he  should  do 
so. 

Q.  You  say  the  laborers  are  paid  by  orders  ;  the  owner  or  the  lessor 
of  the  land,  for  whom  the  colored  man  works,  gives  him  an  order  on  the 
store  ;  the  man  goes  there  with  his  order,  and  takes  up  the  necessaries 
of  life,  which  he  is  obliged  to  have.  Does  he  take  them  up  in  advance 
of  the  sale  of  his  crops  ? — A.  1  do  not  know  whether  in  advance  or  not; 
1  have  simply  been  told  by  them  that  that  is  the  method  of  payment. 

Q.  The  gist  of  the  complaint  is,  that  there  is  very  little  ready  money 
paid  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


17 


Q.  You  say  they  are  not  allowed  to  sell  anything  until  the  main  crop 
is  harvested  ;  what  do  you  mean  by  that  ? — A.  I  am  told  that  such  is  the 
case. 

Q.  What  are  the  principal  crops  they  raise  there  ?— A.  Cotton  and 
corip  arid  in  certain  portions  of  the  State,  peanuts;  and  in  some  sec¬ 
tions — in  the  northern  part,  about  Hendersonville,  and  Danville,  and 
Greensborough — tobacco. 

Q  Do  you  understand  that  they  are  prohibited  from  raising  and  using 
vegetables  and  the  ordinary  necessaries  of  life  that  may  bo  appropri¬ 
ated  by  the  family  during  the  season  ? — A.  i  mean  that  they  are  pro¬ 
hibited  from  selling,  not  from  using. 

Q.  They  have  the  right  to  use  whatever  they  can  appropriate? — A.  I 
understand  so  ;  but  cannot  sell  anything,  so  as  to  get  any  income  from  it. 

Q.  You  say  that  when  the  year  ends,  and  the  colored  man  comes  to 
settle  up,  there  is  nothing  left ;  how  did  you  understand  the  colored  man 
supported  his  family  during  the  season,  while  the  crop  was  growing  ?— 
A.  That  has  always  been  a  mystery  to  me. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  they  get  such  support  as  they  have  ? — A.  1  sup¬ 
pose  that  they  get  an  advance  from  the  lessor. 

Q.  That  is,  an  order  on  the  storekeeper  is  advanced  to  them  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  leaves  them  at  the  mercy  of  the  storekeeper  ? — A.  Yes, 

sir. 

Q.  You  say  that  you  heard  no  complaints  of  any  discrimination  in  the 
matter  of  rents  as  between  the  white  population  and  the  colored  popu¬ 
lation  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  understand  that  the  white  laborer  lived  on  orders  given 
him  in  advance,  upon  his  work,  the  same  as  the  colored  laborer? — A.  In 
the  Southwestern  States  there  is  no  white  laboring  population,  as  a  class, 
like  the  colored  population. 

Q.  llow  is  it  in  North  Carolina? — A.  ft  is  different  in  different  parts 
of  the  State;  in  the  western  section  of  North  Carolina  it  is  quite  differ¬ 
ent  from  the  east. 

Q.  Is  this  emigration  from  the  eastern  or  the  western  section  ? — A.  I 
should  call  it  the  eastern. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  there  is  a  white  laboring  population  in 
that  section  of  North  Carolina  in  competition  with  the  negroes  : — A.  I 
think  not. 

Q.  You  understand  that  there  is  no  discrimination  between  the  white 
and  the  colored  population  as  regards  the  manner  in  which  they  are 
paid  for  their  labor? — A.  It  is  not  easy  to  see  how  there  could  be,  when 
there  is  no  white  laboring  population  to  discriminate  in  favor  of  or 
against.  Is  it  anything  very  extraordinary  that  there  should  be  no  dis¬ 
crimination  where  there  is  only  one  kind  of  people  ? 

(Mr.  Vance  objected  to  witness  inserting  an  argument  into  his  testi¬ 
mony.) 

Mr.  Blair.  You  asked  a  question,  and  helms  answered  it,  that  is  all. 


By  the  Chairman: 

Q.  Was  there  anything  in  his  circular  to  indicate  whether  that  man 
Walker,  of  Terre  Haute,  was  a  white  man  or  a  colored  man  ? — A.  He 
was  a  colored  man. 

2  Ex 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


m 


TESTIMONY  OF  A.  B.  CARLETON. 


A.  B.  Carleton  sworn  and  examined. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside  ? — Answer.  At  Terre  Haute,  Ind. 

Q.  What  is  your  profession  ? — A.  I  am  a  lawyer. 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  J.  H.  Walker? — A.  I  am,  very  well. 

Q.  Do  \ou  know  what  official  capacity  he  holds  under  the  general 
government? — A.  Ido  not  know  what  is  the  name  of  it;  it  is  con¬ 
nected  with  the  postal  service ;  he  carries  the  mail  between  the  depot 
and  the  post  office;  he  is  an  employ 6  of  the  general  government. 

Q.  State  what  the  negro  population  is  in  Vigo  County,  of  the  old  set¬ 
tlers,  who  have  been  there  as  long  as  anybody  else. — A.  It  is  1,500  or 
2.000 — upwards  of  1,500  anyway. 

Q.  How  many  votes  do  they  cast  at  the  election  in  our  county  elec¬ 
tion  ? — A.  Between  300  and  400. 

Q.  Are  you  tolerably  well  acquainted  with  the  colored  people  there? 
—A.  Pretty  well. 

Q.  Have  you,  since  this  immigration  movement  into  Vigo  County 
commenced,  had  any  conversation  with  any  of  the  colored  men  them¬ 
selves,  the  old  settlers,  on  this  subject  ? — A.  1  have,  to  some  extent. 

Q.  State  their  opinions  of  favor  or  disfavor  toward  the  movement. — 
A.  1  have  heard  old  colored  residents  express  themselves  in  about  this 
way  :  they  said  there  were  enough  poor  negroes  here  now,  without  the 
immigration  of  any  more  from  North  Carolina. 

Q.  Is  there  any  sentiment  so  far  as  you  know  in  favor  of  this  immi¬ 
gration  to  our  State,  either  in  Vigo  County,  or  any  place  else  ? — A.  I 
know  of  nobody  who  favors  it,  except  J.  II.  Walker. 

Q.  In  regard  to  farm  labor,  have  you  any  knowledge  of  any  demand 
for  farm  laborers  at  this  time  of  the  year,  in  that  part  of  our  State? — 
A.  I  have  no  knowledge  of  it ;  and  I  am  satisfied  that  there  is  no  de¬ 
mand  ;  1  have  conversed  with  old  residents  there,  and  they  do  not  know 
of  any  demand  for  them. 

Q.  Are  Walker’s  opportunities  and  position  such  as  to  enable  him  to 
judge  of  such  a  demand,  or  to  be  the  instrument  of  communicating  the 
wishes  of  the  farm  community? — A.  There  is  nothing  in  his  calling  to 
indicate  that,  further  than  that  he  is  a  busy  kind  of  a  man — he  is  an 
active  Republican  politician  ;  he  might  make  inquiries. 

.  Q.  You  acquaintance  iii  that  vicinity  is  pretty  general? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  there  is  any  such  demand,  you  are  not  aware  of  it? — A.  No, 
sir. 


By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  Have  you  talked  much  with  farmers  on  this  subject  ? — A.  To  some 
extent.  The  fact  is,  ever  since  1874  we  have  had  hard  times  in  Indiana ; 
there  is  very  little  amelioration  even  now,  when  there  is  said  to  be  a 
“  boom  in  business.  I  have  known,  from  people  coming  to  make  in¬ 
quiry  where  they  could  get  employment,  that  there  is  an  oversupply  of 
labor.  Of  late,  since  there  has  been  bo  some  extent  a  revival  in  the 
iron  business,  there  has  been  some  inquiry  for  foundery-men  ;  but  for 
farm  labor  there  is  no  demand  in  Indiana. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  these  men  who  have  recently  migrated  out 
there  have  found  employment  ? — A  I  am  unable  to  say.  I  kuow  of  one 
colored  man  who  got  employment;  I  had  a  little  conversation  with  him 
m  the  train. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


19 


Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  colored  people  already  residiug  there 
have  exerted  themselves  to  find  employment  for  the  new  comers,  and 
to  take  care  of  them? — A.  Yes,  sir;  their  efforts  have  been  taxed  to 
the  utmost  to  find  employment  for  them. 

Q.  About  how  many  colored  men  have  you  heard  express  opposition 
to  their  coming? — A.  I  do  not  know;  perhaps  four  or  five. 

Q.  They  all  put  it  on  the  ground  you  have  mentioned,  that  there  was 
not  employment  for  them  ?— A.  Yes,  sir;  they  said  there  were  too  many 
negroes  here  already. 


Q.  This  Mr.  Walker,  you  say,  was  employed  in  carrying  the  mail  from 
the  depot  to  the  post-office? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  not  that  work  done  under  contract  with  the  department? — A. 
My  understanding  is  that  it  is  an  appointment;  he  has  had  the  place,  I 
think,  some  six  years  or  more. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  demonstrations  of  opposition  on  the  part  of 
the  white  people  of  Indiana  to  the  colored  emigrants  stopping  there? — 
A.  None  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  demonstration  at  Shelbyville? — 
A.  Nothing,  only  what  1  saw  about  it  in  the  newspapers. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  their  being  refused  to  speak  in  a 
court-house  at  any  place  in  Indiana? — A.  I  do  not. 


By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  There  has  been  some  white  migration  to  Indiana  from  the  North 
and  other  points,  has  there  not? — A.  Not  very  largely. 

Q.  But  there  has  been  something  of  it — German,  and  Irish,  and  Scan¬ 
dinavian,  Nc.? — A.  We  have  no  Scandinavian  population  at  all  in  In¬ 
diana.  I  am  not  aware  of  any  immigration  into  Indiaua  that  amounts 
to  anything,  except  colored. 

Q  Then  the  growth  of  Indiana,  the  increase  of  the  population,  seems 
to  have  come  to  a  stop,  except  as  to  the  colored  population? — A.  There 
is  no  general  migration  to  Indiaua  from  any  State. 

Q.  There  is  some  emigration  from  the  State,  I  presume? — A.  I  sup¬ 
pose  there  is  some,  to  the  Southwest,  Texas,  &c. 


By  Mr.  Window  : 

Q.  Is  it  the  general  wish  of  the  people  of  Indiana,  as  you  understand  it, 
not  to  have  any  more  people  come  there  ? — A.  I  think  not. 

Q.  Is  it  the  general  wish  not  to  have  auy  more  laborers  there? — A.  I 
do  not  think  there  is  any  such  wish  as  that. 

Q.  Only  they  do  not  want  auy  more  colored  people  to  come  there? — 
A.  They  do  not  desire  to  have  an  exodus  of  people  of  any  color  come 
there,  unprovided  for,  in  competition  with  the  people  already  there. 
Where  large  numbers  of  colored  people  come  into  a  State,  in  a  destitute 
condition,  it  is  not  very  agreeable  in  my  judgment,  to  the  people  there, 
especially  when  it  is  generally  believed,  and  it  is  the  pretty  common  be¬ 
lief,  that  they  are  brought  there  for  the  purpose  of  voting  a  particular 
ticket. 

Q.  Is  not  that,  then,  the  only  objection,  the  impression  on  the  part  of 
the  Democratic  party  that  these  colored  people  have  come  there  to  vote  ? 
— A.  That  is  it  in  part;  but,  besides  that,  there  is  a  general  feeling  I 
think,  without  distinction  of  party,  that  it  is  not  a  good  thing  for  a  large 
number  of  people  to  come  into  a  community  at  once,  and  unprovided 
for. 

Q.  There  has  been  no  violent  opposition  to  their  coming  that  you  are 
aware  of? — A.  They  have  been  treated  kindly,  so  far  as  I  know. 


20 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  violent  opposition  anywhere,  except  at  Shelby- 
ville? — A.  None  that  I  am  aware  of. 

Q.  You  say  you  talked  with  one  of  these  men  from  North  Carolina  ; 
did  you  talk  with  any  more  than  one  ?— A.  There  was  only  one  that  I  had 
any  lengthy  conversation  with. 

Q.  What  employment  did  he  get? — A.  He  was  at  Indianapolis.  I 
asked  him  where  he  was  from,  and  he  said  from  North  Carolina  ;  he 
named  the  county  $  it  was  Monroe  or  Marion,  I  think.  I  learned  from 
him  that  he  had  been  employed  by  a  certain  doctor,  whose  name  he  gave, 
who  lived  in  Amo,  Hendricks  County,  Indiana.  He  told  me  that  there 
were  twenty -five  families  in  the  party  that  came  from  North  Carolina 
with  him.  They  were  at  once  quartered  at  Indianapolis,  and  this  doctor 
had  employed  him.  After  this  conversation  with  the  colored  man,  I 
went  back  and  took  my  seat.  Then  this  doctor,  whose  name  I  cannot 
give,  came  and  sat  down  by  me  and  began  to  talk.  He  is  a  doctor  who 
lives  at  Amo,  and  has  a  farm  about  two  miles  out  of  town.  He  wanted 
to  know  if  I  belonged  to  the  Voorhees  investigating  committee,  and  I 
told  him  no.  I  learned  from  him  that  he  had  employed  this  colored 
man  at  Indianapolis,  and  was  taking  him  home  to  give  him  employment 
during  the  winter. 

Q.  Did  this  colored  man  assign  any  reason  for  coming  to  Indiana, 
or  why  Indiana  was  such  an  enticing  place  for  colored  people? — A.  Yes. 
He  said  he  had  been  told  that  in  Indiana  he  could  get  work,  and  get 
paid  a  dollar  and  a  half  a  day.  He  said  he  was  a  Republican.  I  asked 
him  if  he  was  coming  out  to  Indiana  to  vote.  By  that  time  several  per¬ 
sons  had  gathered  around  and  he  had  become  more  on  his  guard,  and 
his  reply  was,  u  The  Democrats  say  so.” 

Q.  is  farm  labor  in  Indiana  worth  a  dollar  and  a  half  a  day  now? — 
A.  O,  no,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  worth  the  half  of  that  ? — A.  No,  sir.  That  same  day  I  saw 
a  Mr.  Baird,  who  is  running  a  wood  sawing  machine  on  the  railroad  and 
employs  several  hands.  He  said  that  more  than  twenty  white  men  had 
sought  employment  of  him  recently  and  were  willing  to  work  for  fifty 
cents  a  day,  but  he  could  not  give  them  employment. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  information  as  to  the  number  of  colored  men  that 
have  come  into  Indiana  during  this  exodus  ? — A.  It  would  be  a  very 
rough  guess  that  I  could  make. 

On  motion  t  he  committee  adjourned  to  meet  at  10  a.  in.,  January  21, 
1880. 


SECOND  DAY. 

Washington,  D.  C.,  Wednesday,  January  21,  1880. 

The  committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment.  Present,  the  chairman 
and  all  the  members.  The  taking  of  testimony  was  resumed  as  follows: 

O.  S.  B.  Wall,  recalled,  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  State  your  name,  age,  and  residence. — Answer.  My  name  is 
O.  S.  B.  Wall  5  my  residence  is  on  the  corner  of  Seventh  and  Boundary 
streets,  near  the  Howard  University  grounds.  Did  you  ask  me  my  age? 
Q.  Yes,  sir. — A.  I  am  about  fifty-two  years  old  now. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  21 

Q.  Where  were  you  bom? — A.  In  Richmond  County,  North  Caro¬ 
lina,  near  the  Peedee. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  here  in  Washington  City? — A.  I  came 
here  in  the  fall  of  1861 ;  staid  here  till  the  spring  of  1865 ;  then  I  was 
commissioned  by  President  Lincoln  to  be  a  colonel,  and  went  away  and 
staid  on  duty  among  the  freed  men  in  South  Carolina,  in  Charleston, 
until  early  in  1866,  when  my  regiment  was  mustered  out  and  I  was  mus¬ 
tered  out  also.  Then  I  went  back  to  Ohio,  my  home  before  coming 
to  Washington,  and  staid  there  awhile ;  in  1867  I  was  sent  as  a  delegate 
to  represent  Northern  Ohio  in  the  national  colored  convention  in  that 
State. 

Q.  When  did  you  come  from  North  Carolina  to  Ohio? — A.  In  1830; 
I  was  sent  there  by  my  father  to  a  Quaker  school  in  Warren  County, 
about  fiftv  miles  above  Cincinnati. 

Q.  Then  you  were  appointed  from  Ohio,  by  President  Lincoln,  to  what 
position ? — A.  I  was  appointed  to  a  captaincy  by  Secretary  Stanton  on 
the  3d  of  March,  1865. 

Q.  Just  about  the  termination  of  the  war? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  in  the  Army? — A.  I  was  in  the  Army  a  year, 
because  the  organization  to  which  I  was  attached  was  not  disbanded. 

Q.  Did  you  hold  any  position  under  the  government  after  that  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir  ;  as  I  said, when  Icame back  here  in  1867, General  Howardsought 
me  and  asked  me  to  become  an  employe  in  the  Freedmen’s  Bureau. 

Q.  And  you  accepted  the  position  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  in  the  employment  of  the  Freedmen’s  Bureau? 
— A.  Without  the  data  at  my  hands,  I  could  not  say. 

Q.  You  can  state  approximately  ? — A.  I  should  say  some  three  or 
four  years. 

Q.  After  you  went  out  of  that  service,  what  other  service  were  you 
engagediu? — A.  1  think  that  then  Mr.  Bowen  and  others  petitioned 
the  Attorney-General  to  commission  me  justice  of  the  peace.  I  suppose 
they  thought  they  would  try  the  novelty  of  having  a  negro  in  the  judi¬ 
ciary  service,  and  I  was  the  first  black  fellow  appointed  to  be  a  justice 
of  the  peace  in  the  District.  After  that  the  board  of  police  commis¬ 
sioners  made  me  a  police  magistrate. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  serve  as  justice  of  the  peace  ?— A.  About  nine 
years  altogether. 

Q.  Have  you  occupied  any  other  official  position  since  you  were  justice 
of  the  peace  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  now  engaged  in  the  practice  of  the  law  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  engaged  in  any  other  business  ? — A.  None,  except  that  I 
collect  and  do  everything  that  pertains  to  that  sort  of  business. 

Q.  When  did  you  become  president  of  the  Emigrant  Aid  Society? — 
A.  I  could  not  state  exactly  ;  a  year  or  a  year  and  a  half  ago. 

Q.  Where  was  this  Emigrant  Aid  Society  organized  of  which  you  are 
the  president  ? — A.  At  the  house  of  Mr.  Adams,  the  secretary. 

Q.  Where  was  that? — A.  On  the  corner  of  Fourteenth  and  V  streets. 

Q.  In  this  city  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  this  the  parent  society,  or  are  there  branches  of  this  Emigrant 
Aid  Society  ? — A.  This  is  the  parent  society  and  the  only  one. 

Q.  You  mean  there  are  no  branches  ? — A.  None  that  I  know  of;  there 
are  no  auxiliaries  that  I  know  of,  excepting  in  this  sense,  that  we  were 
organized  first,  and  that  others,  which  were  organized  afterward,  showed 
a  deference  to  us,  being  the  first  organized,  and  being  located  at  the  na¬ 
tional  capital ;  we  have  never  given  any  authority  to  any  other  society 
in  any  other  State. 


22 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Are  there  any  other  similar  societies,  to  your  knowledge,  in  the 
United  States? — A.  I  learn  by  the  papers  and  by  hearsay  that  there 
are  a  number  of  them. 

Q.  State  where  they  are,  so  far  as  you  know. — A.  There  are  one  or 
two  in  Kansas,  I  have  heard. 

Q.  Whereabouts  in  Kansas? — A.  I  said — what  I  am  telling  you  now 
is  only  what  I  have  heard  said  or  have  read  in  papers.  I  know  I  have 
heard  it  said  that  there  were  two  or  three  in  Kansas,  I  think  near  the 
Missouri  line.  Then  I  have  heard  or  have  read,  I  do  not  know  which, 
that  there  were  some  in  Indiana,  and  some  in  Pennsylvania,  New  York, 
and  other  places,  which  I  cannot  now  recall.  I  have  heard  this  in  a 
sort  of  general  way. 

Q.  There  are  several  in  Indiana,  you  say  ? — A.  I  have  heard  so  or 
read  so,  or  both. 

Q.  Where  are  those  located  that  are  in  Indiana? — A.  I  think  I  have 
heard  that  there  is  an  organization  at  Greencastle.  I  understand  there 
is  one  at  Indianapolis.  1  think  I  have  read  ot  another  at  some  other 
place  in  Indiana,  but  as  to  that  I  will  not  undertake  to  be  explicit. 

Q.  Have  you  corresponded  with  these  other  similar  societies  of  which 
you  have  spoken? — A.  No, ’sir. 

Q.  nave  you  had  no  correspondence  with  them  either  by  letter  or 
otherwise? — A.  Do  you  mean  as  president  of  our  organization  ? 

Q.  I  mean  in  any  way — you  or  your  society. — A.  1  have  not ;  our  sec¬ 
retary  has  attended  to  the  correspondence. 

Q.  My  question  was  intended  to  embrace  your  society;  has  your 
society  had  any  such  correspondence? — A.  I  think  we  have,  but  I  will 
not  be  positive  as  to  that.  I  think  Mr.  Adams  has  spoken  to  me  a 
number  of  times  about  receiving  communications  from  other  societies 
and  answering  them.  I  have  notread  the  communications,  though. 

Q.  Where  is  Mr.  Adams  now  ? — A.  lie  is  away  out  West  somewhere; 
I  do  not  know  exactly  where;  the  last  I  heard  of  him  lie  was  near  Van¬ 
couver’s  Island,  I  think;  at  least,  way  up  in  Washington  Territory. 

Q.  How  long  do  you  expect  him  to  stay  there? — A.  I  cannot  say.  I 
have  understood  that  he  means  to  make  a  permanent  home  somewhere 
out  there. 

Q.  Has  your  society  tilled  his  place  as  secretary  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  is  your  secretary  now? — A.  A  young  man  by  the  name  of 
Fearing,  a  clerk  in  the  Treasury  Department. 

Q.  Is  he  white  or  colored  ? — A.  lie  is  a  very  handsome  mulatto. 

Q.  Has  he  the  records  of  your  society  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  so  far  as  we  have 
any.  The  fact  is,  we  have  not  much  records  about  it. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  have  any,  are  they  in  his  custody  or  yours? — A.  In 
his,,  sir,  as  secretary  of  the  society.  I  would  state,  as  1  said  before,  that 
we  have  very  little  in  the  way  of  records.  We  have  been  going  on  very 
much  as  the  English  Government  does,  without  any  written  constitu¬ 
tion. 

Q.  Such  letters  as  you  have  received,  have  you  been  in  the  habit  of 
keeping  them  or  destroying  them  ?— A.  I  have'quite  a  number,  mostly, 
1  should  say,  not  official  but  personal. 

Q.  Have  you  any  from  the  society  at  Greencastle,  Ind.?— A.  I  have 
not. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  of  the  names  of  any  parties  belonging  to 
that  organization  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  a  man  there  by  the  name  of  Langsdale? — A. 

have  heai  d  of  him. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  any  correspondence  with  him  ? — A.  I  never  did. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  nave  any  copies  of  bis  paper  been  sent  to  you  ? — A.  Mr.  Adame 
may  have  shown  me  some  ;  I  will  not  be  positive. 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  the  parties  composing  the  organization 
at  Indianapolis? — A.  No,  sir.  The  Leader  is  sent  me,  a  colored  paper,; 
and  trom  my  recollection,  about  the  time  the  society  was  organized,  the 
name  of  a  man  called  Bagby  or  Bagley  occurred  among  the  officers. 
That  is  about  all  the  name  I  remember. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  in  Indiana? — A.  O,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  what  point  in  Indiana? — A.  In  the  northern  portion  mostly.  I 
was  raised  only  sixty  miles  east  from  Richmond  County. 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted  in  Indianapolis? — A.  No,  sir;  but  I  know 
persons  theic  with  whom  I  was  raised  ;  we  were  boys  in  the  academy 
together. 

Q.  Who  are  they  ? — A.  Dr.  Harvey’s  sons. 

Q.  Were  there  any  others? — A.  I  cannot  think  of  any  others. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  were  at  Indianapolis  ? — A.  I  never  was  at  In¬ 
dianapolis;  my  acquaintance  was  mostly  in  Northern  Indiana. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  were  in  Indiana  at  all? — A.  Not  for  several 


years. 

Q.  Yon  say  you  have  no  written  constitution? — A.  Well,  sir,  that  is 
partly  correct  and  partly  not.  We  have  a  sort  of  a  constitution,  but 
we  have  not  the  regular  machinery,  such  as  people  usually  have  to  govern 
literary  or  other  organizations. 

Q.  What  sort  of  machinery  have  you? — A.  We  simply  have  so  much, 
of  a  constitution,  without  any  preamble  to  it,  as  sets  forth  that  we  are 
to  have  a  president  and  vice  president,  and  secretary,  and  a  treasurer, 
I  think  ;  but  we  do  not  go  on  with  a  number  of  different  articles  defin¬ 
ing  just  in  what  way  the  objects  of  our  society  shall  be  carried  out. 

Q.  Is  there  a  record  of  that  constitution  ? — A.  1  cannot  say;  I  have 
never  seen  anything  of  it  since  the  evening  when  we  adopted  it,  over  a 
year  ago. 

Q.  What  are  the  provisions  regarding  membership,  or  didn’t  you  have 
any  ? — A.  I  doubt  whether  we  ever  had  any. 

Q.  Is  there  a  fee  for  joining  ? — A.  I  think  not;  I  am  not  positive  as 
to  that,  but  I  think  not.  We  simply  wanted  to  work  and  get  along 
with  as  little  organization  to  govern  us  as  we  could. 

Q.  Did  the  officers  of  this  organization  receive  any  pay  for  their  serv¬ 
ices  ? — A.  Not  any. 

Q.  On  what  source  do  you  rely  for  money  to  put  into  your  treasury  ? — 
A.  On  voluntary  contributions  from  good  people  of  the  country  who 
sympathize* with  us. 

Q.  You  simply  solicit  charity  on  this  subject? — A.  That  is  all  ;  but  1 
do  not  call  it  charity  exactly  ;  it  is  a  contribution. 

Q.  You  have  said  that  there  are  no  branches;  but  is  there  any  organ¬ 
ization  of  this  kind  in  North  Carolina? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir. 

Q.  Dave  you  had  any  communication  with  anybody  in  North  Carolina 
on  the  subject  ? — A.  I  have  had  no  communication  with  anybody  in  the 
sense  that  there  has  been  any  correspondence  between,  our  society  and 
any  society  there.  1  have  received  letters  from  North  Carolina. 

Q.  From  what  point  were  they  written  ? — A.  Mostly,  I  think,  from 
Goldsborough. 

Q.  Do  \ ou  remember  the  name  of  the  party  writing  them  l — A.  I  do — 
Mr.  Evans  and  Mr.  Scott.  I  think  those  two  have  written  me  from 
there. 

Q.  Where  aie  they  now  ? — A.  L  do  not  know. 


24 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  How  long  since  yon  saw  them  in  town  here  ? — A.  I  saw  them  in 
town  here  four  or  five  days  ago. 

Q.  In  what  employment  are  they  engaged  ? — A.  I  could  not  tell  you. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  that  they  are  engaged  in  giving  their  entire  time 
and  attention  to  this  migration  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  that ;  no,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  not  met  them  in  charge  of  companies  of  colored  men  on 
their  way  from  North  Carolina  to  the  West  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  believe 
they  were. 

Q.  Did  they  not  tell  yon  they  were? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  told  me  that 
they  were  accompanying  these  people  from  North  Carolina. 

Q.  What  information  have  you  of  the  demand  for  labor  in  Indiana  ? — 
A.  Well,  sir,  now  I  don’t  want  to  go  be3Tond  the  bounds  of  the  exact 
truth.  1  want  to  come  to  an  understanding  whether  the  Senator  wishes 
me  to  give  my  own  knowledge  personally,  or  simply  my  general  knowl¬ 
edge  derived  from  various  sources. 

Q.  I  want  this  either  from  your  own  knowledge  or  from  information 
that  you  may  have  derived  from  others  in  Indiana  ;  and  if  from  informa¬ 
tion  derived  from  Indiana,  give  us  the  names  of  those  who  informed 
you. — A.  My  general  knowledge  is  this  :  I  was  raised  in  a  farming  sec¬ 
tion  in  Southern  Ohio,  in  the  same  latitude  as  the  interior  portion  of 
OLio  and  Indiana  ;  and  I  know  there  are  many  thrifty  farmers  in  Ohio 
and  Indiana,  and  that  there  js  a  demand  for  labor,  in  winter  almost  the 
same  as  in  summer,  for  such  work  as  chopping  wood,  cutting  logs,  and 
so  forth.  Knowing  this  to  be  the  case  in  Southern  Ohio,  I  have  every 
reason  to  believe  it  to  be  the  same  in  Southern  Indiana;  it  is  the  same 
sort  of  a  country,  and  there  must  be  a  demand  for  the  same  sort  of  labor. 
I  know  that  the  negro,  from  his  docility,  from  his  adaptiveness  and  teach¬ 
ableness,  will  make  a  better  laborer  and  give  better  satisfaction  than 
the  tramp  regency,  or  the  Irish  and  the  Germans ;  that  they  are  more 
desirable,  especially  with  the  Quakers  of  the  country.  Besides  that 
general  information,  I  have  had  a  number  of  communications  from  gen¬ 
tlemen  who  desire  labor,  and  mention  that  they  want  “one  good  colored 
man,”  or  “or  two  good  colored  men,”  as  the  case  may  be,  or  that  they 
“  can  locate  fifty  colored  men.” 

Q.  Have  you  with  you  the  names  of  persons  who  have  written  you 
such  letters  ? — A.  I  have  not  with  me. 

Q.  Will  you  bring  them  here  ? — A.  I  will.  They  are  from  good,  re¬ 
sponsible  people. 

Q.  Do  you  know  them  personally  t — A.  I  know  of  them,  as  I  know  of 
Senator  Voorhees,  or  as  I  know  of  other  men  of  whom  I  have  frequently 
heard  and  whose  character  and  reliability  are  perfectly  well  known. 

Q.  Where  do  they  live? — A.  In  Indiana;  I  could  not  say  exactly  in 
what  part. 

Q.  W  hat  county  do  they  live  in  ? — A.  I  could  not  state. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  their  post-office  address  ? — A.  I  do  not.  I  get 
letters  from  New  York,  from  Ohio,  from  Pennsvlvania,  and  from  other 
States. 

Q.  Are  you  willing  to  give  us  the  benefit  of  them  ? — A.  Certainly,  sir. 
A  great  many  of  them  are  turned  over  to  Mr.  Adams,  the  secretary  of 
our  society,  because  the  secretary  was  the  proper  person  to  have  them  ; 
but  whatever  I  have  you  can  have. 

Q.  Will  you  bring  them  with  you  to  our  next  meeting?— A.  I  will. 

Q.  You  say  the  demand  for  farm  labor  is  about  the  same  in  Southern 
Ohio  as  in  Southern  Indiana  ;  are  you  sending  any  of  these  people  to 
Ohio  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  the  last  lot  I  sent  out — there  were  eleven  of  them 
— I  sent  to  Ohio. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SORTHERN  STATES. 


25 


Q.  To  what  part  of  Ohio  ? — A.  To  Bellaire. 

Q.  Was  there  a  demand  for  these  men  there  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  ex¬ 
cepting  this:  We  have  been  informed  heretofore  that  it  was  a  good  loca¬ 
tion  there  for  them  ;  then  we  have  been  written  to  by  some  colored  men 
there  that  it  was  a  good  location. 

Q.  Who  has  written  to  you  to  that  effect  I — A.  Well,  one  of  them  is 
Milton  M.  Holland,  a  good  engineering  man  in  the  last  campaign.  He 
told  us  the  state  of  things  there,  and  that  good  colored  men  and  women 
could  get  employment  there  ;  and  at  his  instance  these  persons  were  di¬ 
rected  there,  not  having  money  enough  to  take  them  to  Kansas. 

Q.  You  say  he  was  u  a  good  engineering  man  in  the  last  campaign 
do  you  mean  by  that  the  last  political  campaign  ?— A.  I  do  not  know, 
except  that  he  is  an  active  man  in  the  interests  of  the  colored  men. 

Q.  To  what  other  points  in  Ohio  have  you  sent  colored  men  ? — A. 
Mostly  to  the  river  counties.  The  fact  is,  I  have  not  had  much  to  do 
with  forwarding  men  to  any  other  point  except  Bellaire.  I  think  some 
were  sent  to  Gallia  County,  and  perhaps  to  two  or  three  other  points. 

Q.  Have  you  the  means  of  telling  how  many  colored  laborers  you 
have  sent  to  Indiana? — A.  Ko,  sir;  I  could  only  approximate  it  in  a 
way  that  would  be  quite  indefinite;  we  have  sent  a  good  many  women 
and  children  out  there;  in  all,  I  should  not  be  surprised  if  we  had  sent 
from  2,500  to  3,000  persons  to  Indiana. 

Q.  How  many  to  Ohio  ? — A.  It  would  be  a  sheer  guess  that  I  could 
make;  only  a  few,  as  compared  with  the  number  sent  to  Indiana. 

Q.  Half  as  many  ? — A.  Ko,  sir,  I  think  not ;  perhaps  four  or  five  hun¬ 
dred;  perhaps  not  that  many  ;  they  were  sent  out  in  little  squads  as 
wanted  and  called  for. 

Q.  Who  has  been  in  the  habit  of  going  to  Indiana  to  make  arrange¬ 
ments  for  these  people  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  except  by  hearsay. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  fry  hearsay  ? — A.  I  have  understood  that  Will¬ 
iams  and  Perry  have  done  the  most  of  the  going  out  with  them  and  lo¬ 
cating  them. 

Q.  Do  you  want  this  committee  to  understand  that  2,500  to  3,000  men, 
women,  and  children  have  been  sent  from  here  to  Indiana  through  the 
instrumentality  of  your  organization,  and  yet  you  have  no  more  knowl¬ 
edge  of  what  has  been  going  on  at  the  other  end  of  the  line,  in  Indiana, 
and  of  the  people  engaged  in  this  business  out  there,  than  you  have 
given  us  here  ?  Can  you  furnish  us  no  names  of  persons  connected  with 
this  Emigrant  Aid  Society  in  Indianapolis,  and  no  names  of  persons  at 
Greencastle;  who  are  managing  this  matter? — A.  With  all  deference  to 
the  Senator  and  the  committee,  and  meaning  no  offense,  allow  me  to 
sav  that  I  want  the  committee  to  understand  just  what  they  choose 
from  the  evidence  I  give  ;  1  have  nothing  to  do  except  to  give  it  to  you 
as  accurately  and  definitely  as  I  can.  I  mean  to  say  again  that  I  have 
no  connection  with  any  organization  in  Indiana,  nor  in  any  other  State; 
thatlhave  no  further  interest  in  the  matter  in  the  world  than  that  I,  as  a 
humanitarian,  meet  these  people  here,  desire  very  much  to  do  all  I  can 
to  help  them  go  west,  and  get  good  homes  there.  I  have  110  connection 
with  any  organization  or  anybody,  and  hope  and  believe  that  the  peo¬ 
ple  there  are  imbued  with  the  same  spirit  that  I  am,  and  will  welcome 
them  and  take  care  of  them,  which  I  hear  they  do;  but  when  it  comes 
to  particulars,  I  cannot  tell  you  definitely;  I  do  not  know  the  number 
that  have  been  sent  to  Indiana  with  any  exactness ;  it  would  be  the 
merest  guess-work  for  me  to  say  how  many  I  have  sent  or  been  instru¬ 
mental  in  sending. 

Q.  You  say  that  you  are  responsible  for  this  paper  here  ;  for  its  state- 


26 


NEGRO  EXODUS  EROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


meats  of  fact  and  its  sentiment? — A.  I  did  not  mean  to  put  it  in  just 
that  shape.  I  had  something  to  do  with  the  composition  of  the  paper; 
Mr.  Adams,  our  secretary,  a  young  man  of  more  or  less  literary  ability, 
got  the  thing  up;  but  I  was  in  sympathy  with  it,  and  agreed  with  it, 
and  approved  it  in  the  main  ;  there  might  be  some  words  or  sentences 
that  I  would  have  had  different  if  I  had  had  the  entire  getting  up  of  it. 
What  I  meant  to  say  was,  that  in  the  main  I  am  in  sympathy  with  its 
sentiments. 

Q.  In  this  paper  I  hud  it  stated  that  “  It  is  well  known  that  ever  since 
the  adoption  by  the  people  of  the  United  States  of  those  constitutional 
measures  which  conferred  upon  the  late  slave  the  rights  of  citizenship 
and  suffrage,  there  has  existed  throughout  some  of  the  Southern  States 
an  incessant  political  and  social  str  ife.”  [  wish  to  ask  you.  as  a  man  of 
intelligence  belonging  to  your  race,  and  of  information  regarding  their 
condition,  whether  there  is  “an  incessant  political  and  social  strife,”  or 
any  political  and  social  strife,  between  the  white  and  the  colored  popula¬ 
tion  in  Noith  Carolina  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  that  there  is. 

Q.  On  the  other  hand,  do  you  not  know  that  North  Carolina  has  been 
more  friendly  toward  the  colored  race  ;  has  been  more  kind  in  its  treat¬ 
ment  of  them  ;  more  liberal  in  its  legislation  in  their  behalf ;  and  has 
actually  done  more  for  their  benefit  than  any  other  State,  North  or 
South  ? — A.  Now,  Mr.  Senator,  that  is  a  very  nice  little  eulogy  on  North 
Carolina.  Governor  Vance,  there,  himself  could  not  have  done  it  up 
any  better.  It  is  almost  equal  to  Daniel  Webster’s  famous  eulogy  on 
Massachusetts,  when  he  exclaimed,  “There  she  stands.”  And, seriously, 
Mr.  Senator,  I  will  agree  with  you  that  North  Carolina  has  been  one  of 
the  mildest  and  most  considerate  slave  States  in  the  Union.  She  has 
gone  beyond  even  Maryland  in  that  respect ;  she  has  had  more  free  ne¬ 
groes  and  has  treated  them  better  and  with  more  consideration,  even  in 
the  old  times  when  slavery  was  still  in  existence,  than  any  other  South¬ 
ern  State;  and  since  emancipation  she  has  treated  her  colored  popula¬ 
tion  as  fairly  as  could  be  expected  of  a  master  class  toward  their  ex¬ 
slaves.  It  is  not  so  much  on  account  of  the  treatment  the  colored  peo¬ 
ple  have  received  from  the  whites  as  from  a  poverty  of  the  principal 
material  elements  which  constitute  wealth  and  contribute  to  comfort 
that  makes  North  Carolina  a  grand  good  State  to  emigrate  from.  I  do 
not  mean  any  reflection  on  the  character  of  the  people  ;  the  trouble  is 
in  the  soil.  I  would  not  think  of  living  there.  If  I  were  a  white  man 
and  were  able  to  do  so  ;  that  is,  if  I  had  the  wealth  so  that  I  could,  and 
the  privilege  of  doing  so,  I  would  go  down  to  North  Carolina  and  would 
educate  and  instruct  those  negroes,  not  with  reference  to  politics  or  re¬ 
ligion  or  social  systems,  but  I  would  say  to  them,  if  you  want  to  edu¬ 
cate  your  children  to  be  men,  to  imitate  the  white  race,  to  own  property, 
to  berome  successful  in  life  in  any  respect,  you  must  leave  this  poor, 
wretched,  God  forsaken  country,  where  the  soil  does  not  seem  able  to 
sprout  black-eyed  peas,  and  go  out  into  the  broad,  rich,  fertile  West, 
where  they  can  buy  farms  on  those  alluvial  prairies  at  a  less  price  per 
acre  than  the  rent  that  they  pay  every  year  down  there,  it  is  not  from 
any  hostility  to  the  white  people,  but  for  the  good  of  the  black  people, 
that  I  urge  them  to  get  up  and  get  out  from  that  State. 

Q.  Mr.  Wall,  have  you  ever  looked  at  the  census  returns  of  North 
Carolina  and  noticed  the  productiveness  of  that  State?  If  you  have,  I 
am  sure  you  would  not  make  any  such  sweeping  assertions  as  you  have, 
that  the  soil  is  not  capable  of  raising  “  black  eyed  pease.”  Did  you  ever 
examine  the  census  returns  of  North  Carolina  as  regards  its  product¬ 
iveness? — A.  O,  yes,  sir;  I  certainly  have;  I  love  the  State - 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


27 


Q.  Have  you  looked  at  the  census  returns  because  you  love  the  State? 
— A.  I  judge  mainly  from  my  own  general  knowledge  of  the  State  and 
the  condition  of  the  people  there. 

Q.  Aside  from  the  barrenness  of  the  soil  of  North  Carolina,  point  out 
some  other  evils  that  you  think  the  people  will  be  relieved  of  by  going 
to  Indiana. — A.  The  next  thing,  and  the  most  important  thing  to  me,  is 
the  education  and  schooling  of  the  children.  I  am  told,  notwithstand¬ 
ing  the  statements  that  the  State  has  been  very  liberal  in  the  establish¬ 
ment  of  schools,  including  normal  schools,  and  did  for  a  time  seem  to 
make  an  effort  in  the  direction  of  popular  education,  that,  either  because 
they  have  not  the  disposition  or  because  they  have  not  the  ability,  they 
have  ceased  to  take  that  sort  of  interest  in  furnishing  school  privileges 
that  they  started  out  with.  At  all  events,  I  am  satisfied,  from  state¬ 
ments  received  from  reliable  sources,  that  they  do  not,  in  the  rural  dis¬ 
tricts,  give  the  children  more  than  about  three  month’s  schooling  in  the 
year  ;  and  1  guess  few  of  them  have  that,  And  from  the  fact  that  the 
school  privileges  there  are  not  so  good  as  they  are  in  the  North  gener¬ 
ally,  I  would  urge  them  to  leave  there  and  seek  some  place  where  their 
children  can  find  better  opportunities  for  education. 

Q.' What  is  your  understanding  of  the  school  laws  of  Indiana,  in  re¬ 
gard  to  colored  people? — A.  I  understand  that  they  have  schools  for 
the  colored  children  the  same  as  for  the  white,  except  that  where  the 
distance  would  be  too  great  for  colored  children  to  go  to  their  own 
schools  they  and  the  white  children  can  go  to  school  together.  In  other 
words,  they  have  separate  schools  where  it  is  convenient  and  they  can 
afford  it;  and  otherwise  the  children  all  go  to  school  together.  At  all 
events,  I  understand  that  in  some  way  the  colored  children  can  get 
schooling  for  at  least  six  or  eight  months  in  the  year. 

Q.  Are  you  not  aware  that  practically  it  is  not  true  in  Indiana  that 
the  two  races  go  to  school  together  ?  (Here  the  chairman  entered  into 
a  somewhat  detailed  explanation  of  the  law,  the  facts,  and  the  decision 
of  the  supreme  court,  in  Indiana,  and  then  continued) : 

Q.  Now,  I  want  to  ask  you  whether  you  are  aware  that  there  is  a  law 
in  Indiana  making  a  landlord’s  lien  on  half  a  man’s  crop,  so  that  he  can 
not  move  it  or  sell  it  until  he  has  paid  his  rent?  Are  you  and  your 
folks  aware  of  that? — A.  No,  sir  ;  and  it  would  not  make  any  difference 
to  my  purpose  if  it  were  so,  if  white  and  colored  men  were  treated 
alike. 

Q.  I  would  like  to  have  you  point  out  the  advantages  of  Indiana  over 
North  Carolina  as  regards  the  treatment  of  your  people. — A.  I  am  not 
particularly  conversant  with  the  laws  of  either  State  ;  but  I  know  some¬ 
thing  of  the  disposition  of  the  people  of  Indiana,  and  their  ability  and 
willingness  to  help  and  aid  ;  their  friendliness  is  about  all  the  matter  I 
have  considered. 

Q.  Then  Indiana  is  regarded  as  friendly  in  tone  and  temper  toward 
the  settlement  of  negroes  there? — A.  No,  not  entirely ;  The  southern 
part  of  your  state,  your  “  Egypt,”  is  to  be  more  dreaded,  I  would  say, 
than  even  Kentucky.  But  in  the  interior  there  seems  to  be  a  very  dif¬ 
ferent  sentiment. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  “Egypt”?  Do  you  mean  Evansville,  and 
the  parts  around  there,  where  they  cast  about  1,500  negro  votes,  by 
colored  men  brought  over  from  Kentucky  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  mean  the 
portions  where  the  Democrats  have  been  in  the  habit  of  bringing  white 
Kentuckians  over  by  the  thousand  to  help  carry  the  State  for  the  Dem¬ 
ocratic  ticket. 

Q.  Please  be  explicit,  and  state  the  counties  where  they  have  been 


28 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


in  tbe  habit  of  bringing  Kentuckians  over  to  vote  the  Democratic 
ticket. — A.  As  I  said,  Mr.  Senator,  you  must  not  coniine  me  to  specific 
details  in  these  matters.  I  have  read  statements  in  the  papers,  and  have 
received  information  from  gentlemen  in  whom  I  have  every  confidence, 
as  to  your  u  Egypt,”  and  the  method  of  carrying  elections  there. 

Q.  Are  you  aware  that  u  Egypt”  is  not  in  Indiana — that  the  term  is 
never  applied  to  any  portion  of  Indiana,  but  is  applied  exclusively  to  the 
southern  portion  of  Illinois  ? — A.  I  have  heard  it  applied  to  the  southern 
portion  of  Indiana  and  Illinois  both. 

Q.  Are  you  aware  that  Mr.  Heilman,  the  Republican  member  of  Con¬ 
gress  from  the  first  district  of  Indiana,  was  elected  from  the  most 
southern  Congressional  district  in  the  State,  embracing  half  a  dozen 
counties  lying  next  to  Kentucky  ?  Are  you  aware  that  more  of  the 
counties  along  the  river  are  Republican  than  Democratic? — A.  I  have 
given  no  testimony  on  that  point,  for  I  have  no  knowledge  regarding  it. 

Q.  I  wanted  to  see,  Mr.  Wall,  whether  you  could  give  an  intelligent 
account  of  the  difference  between  the  legislation  in  favor  of  your  race  in 
Indiana  and  in  North  Carolina  ;  you  say,  however,  that  you  do  not 
know  of  any  political  or  social  strife  in  North  Carolina  since  suffrage  was 
bestowed  on  the  negro? — A.  I  did  not  want  to  be  understood  as  saying 
that  all  the  difficulties  there  were  social  or  political,  but  that  1  knew  of 
no  particular,  exciting,  special  war  or  strife  between  the  two  races. 

Q.  You  say  in  this  paper,  u  The  disposition  to  escape  beyond  the  reach 
of  oppression  has  of  course  been  greatest  among  the  colored  people  re¬ 
siding  in  those  sections  of  the  South  wherein  their  opponents  have  dis¬ 
played  the  least  regard  for  their  rights  to  4  life,  liberty,  and  the  pursuit 
of  happiness.’”  What  part  of  North  Carolina  is  this  emigration  from  ? 
— A.  I  think  it  is  from  the  northeastern  part. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  counties  ? — A.  I  think  I  have  heard  them  men¬ 
tioned,  maybe,  but  I  cannot  name  them  now.  The  emigrants  have  been 
mainly,  I  have  understood,  from  the  neighborhood  of  Goldsborough. 

Q.  You  have  been  among  these  people  as  they  passed  through  ? — A. 
Considerably. 

Q.  Did  they  not  tell  you  what  counties  they  were  from  ? — A.  Some  of 
them  may  have  done  so,  but  if  they  did  I  do  not  remember  now. 

Q.  You  are  a  North  Carolinian  yourself? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  but  I  have 
been  away  from  there  a  long  time.  They  did  not  come  from  any  coun¬ 
ties  where  I  am  acquainted.  I  think  the  name  of  one  of  the  counties 
1  heard  mentioned  was  Lenoir  County. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  this  tide  of  emigration  is  started  in  North 
Carolina  from  those  points  where  the  white  people  ojfpress  the  colored 
people  the  most  ? — A.  Do  you  mean  more  than  in  other  parts  of  the 
South  ? 


Q.  No;  more  than  in  other  parts  of  North  Carolina.  Does  this  emi¬ 
gration  come  from  parts  of  that  State  where  the  white  people  treat  the 
colored  people  more  unjustly  than  in  other  parts  of  the  State? — A. 
Well,  now,  1  think  they  treat  them  quite  unjustly  there - 

Q.  Quite  unjustly  in  what  way  ? — A.  I  think  they  treat  them  un¬ 
justly  in  the  way  they  take  advantage  of  them  in  paying  them  for  their 
labor. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  they  take  advantage  of  them  ? — A.  I  know  it, 
because  I  have  it  directly  from  the  mouths  of  many  intelligent,  houest- 
appearing  men  who  have  come  from  there. 

Q.  How  do  they  say  the  white  people  take  advantage  of  them  ? — A. 
Well, quite  a  number  of  them  have  told  me  that  when  they  work  out  they 
can  get  but  about  thirty  cents  a  day  for  their  labor.  And  when  they 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


29 


rent  little  patches  or  portions  of  ground,  on  shares,  or  when  they  rent 
and  pay  so  much  a  year  for  the  land,  though  they  have  worked  there 
now  for  twelve  or  fifteen  years,  ever  since  emancipation,  they  stand 
just  where  they  did  before  ;  they  haven’t  anything.  Then  they  have 
told  me  about  the  process  of  dealing  with  them — their  being  paid  for 
their  work  in  the  orders  that  were  spoken  of  by  Mr.  Cromwell  the  other 
day.  After  they  have  made  four  or  five  bags  of  cotton,  and  so  much 
corn,  or  whatever  else  they  may  be  raising,  at  the  end  of  the  year  their 
orders  have  accumulated  and  aggregated  in  amount  so  that  their  land¬ 
lord  or  employer,  the  man  from  whom  they  rent,  who  has  the  measuring 
and  weighing  of  the  crop,  and  the  handling  and  calculating  of  these 
orders,  makes  it  out,  somehow,  so  that  they  not  only  have  nothing,  but 
are  in  debt,  with  a  mortgage  on  them,  as  one  might  say,  for  the  future. 

Q.  Have  you  sufficient  knowledge  of  the  world  to  know  whether  the 
same  thing  is  or  is  not  true  of  large  numbers  of  persons  in  other  places, 
everywhere,  white  as  well  as  black  ;  or  does  everybody  get  rich  outside 
of  North  Carolina  ? — A.  O,  no,  sir,  not  everybody  ;  but  in  most  peaces, 
anybody  that  is  hardworking  and  economical  can  manage  to  save  up 
something. 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  of  the  laboring  class  in  all  portions  of  the  country, 
to  a  large  extent,  that  at  the  end  of  the  year  they  are  still  behind  ;  is 
not  that  a  very  common  complaint  everywhere? — A.  Mr.  Senator,  I  will 
frankly  give  you  my  reasons  for  concluding  that  there  is  something 
wrong  about  this  matter.  I  understand  a  little  about  human  nature. 
The  master  class,  who  have  for  two  or  three  hundred  years  held  these 
colored  people  in  abject  slavery,  have  not  so  soon  lost  all  their  feeling  of 
superiority  and  ownership  and  their  determination  to  get  and  to  keep 
the  upper  hand  of  them.  Human  nature  does  not  change  so  suddenly 
but  that,  if  this  class  to  a  man  remain  right  there,  in  the  same  locali¬ 
ties,  and  in  the  same  relation  as  servants,  as  abject  hewers  of  wood 
and  drawers  of  water,  the  upper  class,  with  their  dislike  of  labor  and 
their  contempt  of  laborers,  are  not  likely  to  be  so  pure,  so  immaculate 
as  to  treat  these  people  fairly  and  as  their  fellow-men.  This  is  not  to  be 
expected  ;  and  when  I  hear  these  statements  of  unfair  and  unjust  and 
oppressive  treatment  from  dozens  and  hundreds  of  people,  bearing  upon 
their  countenances  the  seal  of  wretchedness  and  the  impress  of  despair, 
I  hold  myself  justified  in  believing  it  to  be  true.  If  it  be  a  fact  that 
the  white  population  of  the  South  cannot  do  any  better  by  the  colored 
people  than  they  do — if,  on  account  of  the  poverty  of  the  soil,  they 
cannot  do  any  better — that  does  not  make  it  any  the  less  their  right  to 
leave  such  a  country,  nor  any  less  their  duty  to  move  to  some  better 
one,  which  will  afford  them  greater  advantages  in  life  for  themselves 
and  their  children. 

Q.  In  regard  to  this  matter  of  a  change  of  sentiment  toward  the  col¬ 
ored  people,  are  you  aware  that  within  the  past  twenty-five  or  thirty 
years  the  people  of  Indiana  have  voted,  by  a  majority  of  seventy-five  or 
eighty  thousand,  against  permitting  colored  persons  to  come  into  the 
State? — A.  I  was  not  aware  of  it;  I  am  very  sorry  it  they  ever  did  such 
a  thing. 

Q.  I  find  you  stating,  in  this  circular  of  yours,  that  “  he  desires  toes’ 
cape  from  the  South  iti  time  to  avoid  the  unpleasant  experiences  of  a 
Presidential  campaign,  and  even  before  the  census-taker  shall  have  used 
his  name  to  swell  the  Congressional  representation  of  that  section”;  is 
it  your  purpose  in  that  to  advance  the  idea  that  this  migration  would 
cut  down  the  Congressional  representation  of  the  South  generally  f— A. 
That  was  not  my  primary  understanding  at  all. 


30 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Why  was  it  inserted  there,  then? — A.  Because,  while  that  was  not 
the  primary  object  in  view,  still  I  think  it  would  be  right  to  do  that  very 
thing. 

Q.  I  am  not  asking  you  whether  you  think  it  would  be  right  or  not; 
I  am  asking  in  regard  to  the  fact.  This  movement,  then,  would  have 
some  connection,  would  it  not,  with  the  basis  of  representation,  North 
or  South  ? — A.  I  think  that  would  be  an  incidental  result,  following  in 
the  lead  of  this  greatest  of  all  considerations — that  of  getting  them 
away  for  their  own  good,  for  humanity’s  sake. 

Q.  Speaking  of  this  transfer  to  the  North  you  say:  “  There,  too,  his 
right  of  suffrage  will  not  be  contested  or  abridged ;  and  if  the  ‘solid 
North  7  is  in  reality  to  be  arrayed  in  political  contest  against  a  ‘solid 
South,’  his  vote,  freely  cast,  may  one  day  prove  a  potent  force  in  saving 
the  nation  from  the  evil  designs  of  his  former  persecutors.”  You  say 
this  in  your  circular;  and  yet  you  say  that  this  migration,  so  far  as  your 
society  is  concerned,  has  no  political  end  iu  view — that  there  is  nothing 
X>ol itica  1  about  it? — A.  Nothing  whatever. 

Q.  This  statement,  too,  is  here  in  this  paper  incidentally? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  And  the  allusion  to  his  casting  his  vote  against  a  “  solid  South  ” 
is  also  here  incidentally,  or  accidentally — which? — A.  1  don’t  know 
whether  it  is  incidental  or  accidental ;  what  1  meant  to  say  was  this: 
that  in  the  North  the  colored  man  will  not  have  to  pass  through  those 
scenes  that  he  has  to  pass  through  iu  the  South;  there  is  no  use  in  de¬ 
nying  these  things,  for  these  colored  people  have  lived  there  and  know 
about  these  things  ;  in  the  North  nothing  occurs  of  this  intimidating, 
and  white  liners,  and  night-riders,  and  ku-klux. 

Q.  l)o  you  mean  that  there  are  white-liners,  and  night-riders,  and  ku- 
klux  in  North  Carolina?— A.  I  do  not  kuow  particularly  about  North 
Carolina. 

Q.  Yrou  speak  of  going  North,  where  the  right  of  suffrage  is  not 
abridged  ;  is  the  right  of  suffrage  abridged  iu  North  Carolina  any  more 
than  in  Indiana  ? — A.  1  think  so. 

Q.  Do  not  misunderstand  me,  Mr.  Wall;  in  my  examination  of  you  I 
am  not  trying  to  catch  you  iu  any  way,  or  to  get  you  to  agree  with  me; 
I  simply  want  to  get  your  explanation  of  things;  I  want  to  find  out 
what  you  kuow  with  regard  to  this  emigration  movement.  You  say, 
here  in  this  appeal  of  yours,  “Judging  from  the  numerous  petitions  for 
aid,  and  from  other  intelligence  received  from  various  sections  of  the 
South,  this  migration  movement  is  as  yet  in  its  incipieucy  ”  ;  that  is, 
only  in  the  beginning;  is  that  your  idea  in  regard  to  this  movement? — 
A.  That  is  what  I  think,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  I  want  to  kuow  from  you,  one  of  the  leading  men  in  this 
matter,  and  one  of  the  most  intelligent,  your  idea  of  the  scope,  of  the 
future,  of  this  migration  ;  to  how  great  an  extent  you  contemplate  or 
anticipate  a  removal  of  the  negro  from  the  South  to  the  North  ;  whether 
you  expect  all  the  colored  population  to  leave,  or  but  a  part  of  them  ; 
and  if  a  part,  what  part;  and  where  from,  and  whereto;  and  within 
what  time;  give  us  any  facts  that  you  may  have  bearing  upon  these 
points. — xV.  Well,  I  have  two  or  three  theories.  One  is  this:  the  col¬ 
ored  people  have  now  got  a  knowledge  of  their  right  and  privilege  to 
remove  themselves  from  one  part  of  this  country  to  another  ;  they  have 
learned  that  there  is  a  vast  domain  iu  this  country  as  yet  unpeopled  and 
unsettled ;  as  they  become  more  intelligent,  the  same  laws  which  govern 
any  migration,  which  for  the  past  century  has  governed  the  migration 
of  people  from  the  oppressed  countries  of  the  old  world  to  this  country, 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


31 


will  control  this  migration  of  the  colored  population  from  the  South. 
They  will  escape  from  that  section,  where  they  must  bear  a  menial  rela¬ 
tion,  it  seems  to  me,  so  loug  as  they  remain  there,  to  the  Northern  and 
Western  States,  where  at  least  a  portion  of  the  people  are  kindly  dis¬ 
posed  toward  them,  and  where  they  will  possess  the  great  advantage  of 
taking  up  the  soil  and  becoming  owners  of  land  ;  and  encouraged  by 
the  progress  of  these,  and  the  improvement  in  their  condition — which 
will  advance  all  the  time — and  the  increased  friendliness  which  will  re¬ 
sult  from  their  proving  themselves  to  be  honest,  industrious,  and  worthy 
people,  others  will  follow  them,  in  greater  or  less  numbers,  as  they  find 
their  conditions  more  or  less  unpleasant  and  unsatisfactory  in  the  South. 
In  that  great  agricultural  portion  of  the  country,  where  they  need  the 
labor  of  the  negro,  finding  him  docile  and  diligent  and  trustworthy, 
they  will  become  attached  to  him,  and  will  prefer  him,  as  the  old  mas¬ 
ter  class  of  the  South  does,  to  the  foreign  class  of  white  labor.  And  as 
he  finds  himself  well  received  and  well  treated,  as  he  finds  work  to  do 
and  pay  for  his  work,  and  as  these  facts  are  learned  by  those  of  his  race 
whom  he  has  left  behind  in  the  South,  the  migration  will  increase  in 
double  ratio.  In  regard  to  this  matter  of  climate,  I  had  a  talk  with 
Senator  Lamar  the  other  day ;  he  said  he  had  no  fears  of  the  negro  not 
doing  well  in  the  North  ;  he  opposed  the  exodus  on  other  grounds,  but 
not  upon  that ;  for  the  other  advantages  he  would  have  in  the  North 
would  more  than  counterbalance  any  disadvantages  that  might  arise 
from  the  rigors  of  the  climate. 

Q.  If  I  understand  your  explanation,  you  expect  this  transfer  of  popu¬ 
lation  lo  become,  in  the  course  of  time,  quite  general  and  extensive? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  I  would  say  that;  but  I  do  not  expect  the  South  to  be  de¬ 
populated.  I  think,  if  a  great  many  of  them  were  removed,  it  would  be 
better,  both  for  those  who  leave,  and  for  those  who  remain  in  the  South. 

Q.  Of  couise  it  would  not  depopulate  the  South'? — A.  1  meant,  of 
course,  so  far  as  colored  people  are  concerned. 

Q.  Your  view  is,  then,  that  there  is  to  be  an  extensive  movement,  to 
continue  for  a  good  while  in  the  future? — A.  Maybe  I  can  make  myself 
clearer  to  the  Senator  by  an  illustration  like  this:  There  has  for  many 
years  been  an  influx  of  immigration  from  Ireland;  a  certain  percentage 
every  year — increasing  when  they  have  hard  times  in  Ireland,  and  dimin¬ 
ishing  when  there  is  less  distress  there.  In  about  the  same  way,  this 
exodus  having  now  commenced,  will  be  apt  to  continue,  serving  as  a 
sort  of  outlet,  where  the  colored  people  will  go  to  benefit  themselves,  as 
people  come  from  other  countries. 

Q.  Do  you  know  to  what  extent  this  emigration  is  to  go  to  Indiana? — 
A.  No,  sir;  nothing  definite. 

Q.  Do  the  negroes  that  are  now  going  to  Indiana  intend  to  make  that 
State  their  permanent  home? — A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Have  you  not  heard  it  stated,  or  suggested,  that  they  would  re¬ 
main  in  Indiana  until  next  fall,  and  then  go  on  farther  west,  where  there 
were  government  lands — possibly  to  Kansas? — A.  I  have  never  heard 
anything  of  that  sort.  I  have  said  to  them,  go  to  Indiana,  where  you 
can  find  good  homes,  and  a  hospitable  people;  and  it  may  be  that  after 
a  few  years,  when  you  have  accumulated  something,  if  you  want  to  you 
can  go  farther  west,  where  you  can  buy  lauds  cheaper;  but  this  has  never 
been  a  doctrine  of  mine. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  circulars  stating  to  the  colored  people 
that  they  must  get  to  Indiana  by  the  first  of  May  next? — A.  Never. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  talked  with  Perry,  or  Williams,  or  Scott,  upon  that 


32 


NEGRO  I-XODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


subject — that  they  ought  to  get  there  by  that  time,  or  ought  to  get  there 
next  spring  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  no  particular  reason,  then,  for  hurrying  them  through 
during  this  cold  season  of  the  year? — A.  Yes,  sir;  to  get  where  the 
people  are  friendly  to  them,  and  to  find  good  places  to  work. 

Q.  What  arrangements  have  you  made  with  the  railroads  for  trans¬ 
porting  these  people  to  Indiana  ? — A.  I  have  made  no  arrangements  at 
all. 


Q.  Did  you  ever  talk  with  the  officers  of  the  railroads  on  the  subject? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Foreman  ? — A.  He  was  the  principal  man  I  saw, 

Q.  What  position  did  he  occupy  ? — A.  He  was  the  agent. 

Q.  Of  what  road  ? — A.  Of  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Dukehart? — A.  Not  especially. 

Q.  Mr.  Foreman  is  the  passenger  agent? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  go  to  see  Mr.  Foreman,  or  did  he  come  to  see  you  ? — A. 
He  has  been  to  see  me  several  times,  and  I  have  been  to  see  him  several 
times. 

Q.  What  has  he  been  to  see  you  about? — A.  To  see  if  I  would' send 
these  people  by  his  road. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  a  proposition  from  Mr.  Foreman  for  carrying  those 
people? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  a  proposition  from  the  Baltimore  and  Potomac 
Road  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Through  whom? — A.  Through  their  agent,  Mr.  Janowitz. 

Q.  You  mean  a  proposition  for  the  transportation  of  these  people  to 
Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Which  made  the  best  bid? — A.  I  can  tell  the  Senator  something 
better  than  all  this,  for  I  went  to  see  the  grand  moguls  of  the  railroads 
themselves. 

Q.  Who  were  they? — A.  Mr.  Cole,  of  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Road, 
and. Mr.  Young,  of  the  Baltimore  and  Potomac  Road. 

Q.  What  arrangement  could  you  make  with  Cole,  of  the  Baltimore 
and  Ohio? — A.  I  went  up  in  the  interests  of  this  organization  of  ours, 
feeling  that  every  penny  we  could  save  these  poor  people  it  was  our 
duty  to  do  it.  I  went  up  to  see  the  very  best  that  could  be  done.  The 
Baltimore  and  Ohio  people  received  me  nicely,  and  said  they  would 
carry  the  emigrants  from  Washington  to  Indianapolis  for  $9  a  head.  I 
said,  “Could  you  do  it  for  no  less?’7  They  said,  “  No,  but  we  will  tell 
you  what  we  will  do  ;  we  will  give  you  a  drawback  of  one  dollar  a  head.” 
I  said,  “  Is  that  your  very  best  ?  ”  They  said,  “  Yes,  it  is.”  Then  I  went 
to  see  what  the  other  road  would  do.  I  went  to  see  Young  and  he 
treated  us  outrageously,  because  some  days  before  fifty  colored  men, 
with  whom  our  society  had  nothing  whatever  to  do,  had  been  sent  by 
the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Road,  which  they  were  trying  to  get;  he  swore 
and  cursed,  and  said  he  did  not  care  about  carrying  any  of  them  any¬ 
how;  he  said  that  he  had  written  to  his  subordinate  here  his  best  terms, 
and  that  we  could  go  to  him  and  learn  them.  He  said  we  had  had  the 
other  road  carry  the  other  lot,  when  they  had  been  partly  promised  to 
his  road,  and  they  might  as  well  carry  these  too.  I  saw  he  was  feeling 
a  little  dyspeptic  and  not  nice,  and  we  came  away.  I  had  said  to  Cole 
before  that  unless  we  could  do  better  bv  the  other  road  we  would  send 

XJ 

these  men  by  his;  that  is,  such  men  as  we  had  on  our  hands  to  send. 
Some  came  and  went  right  through,  without  our  having  anything  to  do 
with  them.  We  were  only  managing  our  own  little  matter  here.  When 
I  got  back  I  said  to  the  agent  of  the  Baltimore  and  Potomac  that  I  sup. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


33 


posed  he  had  stated  his  best  terms  to  me.  He  said,  “Yes,  sir;  I  could 
not  do  any  better.”  So  the  terms  of  both  roads  were  precisely  the  same. 
So  we  went  down  and  concluded  the  arrangement  with  the  Baltimore 
and  Ohio  Road,  so  far  as  our  little  organization  was  concerned ;  that  is, 
whenever  we  raised  the  money  ourselves  to  send  a  lot  out.  When  the 
emigrants  paid  their  own  way,  we  never  had  anything  to  do  with  it  in 
any  shape.  Then  they  questioned  us,  the  railroad  men  did,  as  to  what 
should  be  done  with  the  drawback  money — the  dollar  apiece  on  each 
passenger.  We  said,  “You  must  not  pay  a  cent  of  this  money  to  any 
of  our  men,  but  make  a  contribution  of  it  to  our  organization.”  *  So  this 
drawback  money  was  paid  back  into  our  treasury,  to  be  used  in  the 
purchase  of  tickets  for  other  emigrants.  And  we  have  our  books  and 
tickets,  with  oaths,  to  show  the  same. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  offered  anybody  a  dollar  a  head  for  getting  emi¬ 
grants  ? — A.  Never. 

Q.  Or  75  cents  a  head  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  W.  C.  Chase? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  any  such  conversation  with  him  ? — A.  No,  sir  ; 
Never  in  my  life. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  the  money  which  you  pay  out  for  the  transpor¬ 
tation  of  these  colored  people  from  here  to  Indiana,  over  the  Baltimore 
and  Ohio  Railroad — the  $8  dollars  a  head,  and  the  drawback;  do  you 
get  that  entirely  by  contribution?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Those  contributions  are  from  Washington  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  any  been  receiving  any  from  outside  of  Washington  ? — A. 
We  did  get,  through  Mr.  Douglass,  $250  from  Miss  Elizabeth  Thompson, 
a  philanthropic  lady  of  New  York. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  who  your  principal  subscribers  to  this  fund  are  in 
this  city? — A.  I  do  not  know  that  I  could.  One  reason  why  I  do  not 
know  is  that  from  the  very  inception  of  our  organization  I  have  partic¬ 
ularly  insisted  that  nobody,  neither  myself  nor  anybody  else,  should 
touch  a  cent  of  those  contributions. 

Q.  Have  you  canvassed  for  money  yourself,  or  have  others  done  that 
for  you  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  whether  others  have  or  not ;  I  think  noth¬ 
ing  of  the  sort  has  been  done  except  at  public  meetings  which  have 
been  held. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Dukehart,  passenger  agent  of  the  Baltimore  and 
Ohio  Railroad? — A.  I  have  met  him. 

Q.  Where  is  he  now  ? — A.  I  do  not  know ;  I  suppose  he  is  at  work  in 
the  interests  of  the  road. 

Q.  Where  is  he  at  work? — A.  He  seems  to  go  from  this  city  down 
south. 

Q.  Are  you  not  aware  that  he  goes  from  this  city  down  to  North  Car¬ 
olina  to  stir  up  this  emigration  business? — A.  He  goes  down  south,  but 
not,  I  think,  to  stir  it  up;  I  asked  him  particularly  not  to  stir  it  up,  but 
to  let  it  all  be  spontaneous. 

Q.  Your  understanding  is  that  he  goes  down  into  North  Carolina  to 
look  after  this  business? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  said  to  me  that  he  staid  at 
that  end  of  the  route  attending  to  passengers  and  emigration ;  I  asked  if 
he  had  ever  urged  or  encouraged  the  colored  people  to  come  north  ;  he 
said  no,  he  had  strict  orders  uot  to  do  that;  then  I  told  him  that  so  far 
as  our  society  was  concerned,  we  wished  nothing  of  the  kind  ;  we  wished 
the  movement  to  be  entirely  voluntary. 

Q.  He  attends  to  passengers  and  emigration? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  that  he  passed  through  here  with  a  lot  ot  col¬ 
ored  passengers  three  or  four  days  since  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

3  EX 


34 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  is  now  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  is  in  North  Carolina  or  Indiana  ? — A.  Nor 
sir;  1  only  know  that  he  is  engaged  in  this  business,  and  generally  at 
that  end  of  the  route,  down  there. 

Q.  Mr.  Cromwell  said  in  his  testimony  day  before  yesterday,  that  when 
these  colored  people  first  came  here  they  intended  to  go  on  to  Kansas^ 
but  that  after  they  got  here  they  changed  their  plans,  and  concluded  to 
go  to  Indiana;  do  you  know  anything  about  that? — A.  A  little;  what 
Mr.  Cromwell  said  did  not  have  any  effect  on  me,  because  he  was  not 
very  clear  about  some  things.  In  the  beginning  of  the  matter,  two 
agents,  or  men  who  claimed  to  be  agents,  came  here  with  long  petitions, 
stating  where  they  had  held  meetings  down  there,  and  had  concluded 
to  go  somewhere.  Up  to  that  time,  we  had  not  had  the  slightest  knowl¬ 
edge  or  least  idea  of  people  coming  here  from  North  Corolina.  Well* 
these  two  young  men  came  here  and  staid  a  few  days,  and  while  they 
were  stopping  here  and  trying  to  get  acquainted  with  our  little  organi¬ 
zation,  our  society,  their  attention  was  directed  to  somebody,  and  that 
somebody  directed  their  attention  to  Indiana,  stating  that  there  were 
opportunities  and  places  there  for  labor,  and  very  kind  people,  es¬ 
pecially  among  the  Quakers;  but  I  did  not  see  these  young  men  then, 
nor  for  a  month  or  six  weeks  after  they  had  come  here,  and  had  left 
here,  and  made  arrangements  to  have  their  people  go  to  Indiana,  till 
they  had  gone  out  there  and  canvassed  the  State,  and  been  all  over  it 
investigating  the  condition  of  things,  and  the  feelings  of  the  people,, 
aud  had  concluded  to  locate  a  number  of  emigrants  there.  I  did  not 
see  these  persons  myself  till  this  emigration  from  North  Carolina  was 
fully  inaugurated,  and  the  people  from  there  were  already  going  to  In¬ 
diana. 

Q.  Did  you  showr  them  any  of  those  Indiana  papers,  encouraging  im¬ 
migration  to  that  State? — A.  No,  sir;  I  had  no  such  relation  with  them. 

Q.  You  made  a  remark  in  relation  to  Mr.  Cromwell’s  testimony.  Did 
you  not  regard  his  statement  as  reliable? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  there  were 
some  matters  that  I  thought  he  did  not  make  very  clear.  There  was 
one  thing  in  particular  that  I  thought  he  did  not  make  very  clear,  al¬ 
though  I  was  sure  that  he  knew  all  about  it. 

Q.  State  what  it  was. — A.  It  was  this:  When  he  was  asked  in  regard 
to  paying  off  the  colored  people  in  orders,  how  they  were  affected  un¬ 
fairly  by  that  mode  of  payment,  he  did  not  explain  the  matter  as 
clearly  as  I  thought  he  might.  He  has  been  present  when  these  poor 
people  explained  this,  and  I  thought  he  might  have  made  the  injustice 
of  it  appear  a  great  deal  clearer. 

Q.  Will  you  explain  that  matter  to  us  on  Friday,  when  you  come 
here  to  bring  us  those  records? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  cannot  promise  you 
a  great  deal  in  the  way  of  records;  but  I  will  look  up  what  I  have.  As- 
I  have  said  before,  I  turned  over  the  most  of  them  to  Mr.  Adams. 


TESTIMONY  OF  A.  M.  CLAPP. 

A.  M.  Clapp  sworn  and  examined. 

Question.  Please  state  your  name  and  residence. — Answer.  My  name 
is  A.  M.  Clapp;  I  reside  in  the  city  of  Washington. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation? — A.  Iam  connected  with  the  Daily 
National  Eepublican. 

Q.  In  what  capacity  ? — A.  As  editor. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


35 


Q.  I  find  your  name  on  this  paper  as  treasurer  of  this  organization _ 

the  Emigrant  Aid  Society  ;  state  how  long  you  have  occupied  that  posi¬ 
tion  in  that  society". — A.  I  think  that  some  time  last  April  I  was  called 
upon  by  Mr.  Wall,  and  asked  if  I  would  serve  as  their  treasurer.  At 
first  I  declined,  and  said  “  No” ;  that  I  did  not  care  to  have  anything 
to  do  with  it.  But  he  said  that  he  had  been  requested  by  a  great  many 
to  ask  me  to  consent,  and  finally  I  consented,  and  have  since  acted  as 
treasurer  of  the  society. 

Q.  What  have  been  your  duties  in  your  capacity  of  treasurer  of  this 
society  ? — A.  To  receive  contributions  or  money  from  whatever  source 
derived. 

Q.  What  moneys  have  you  received  ? — A.  It  was,  I  think,  on  the  6th 
of  May  that  the  first  contribution  to  the  funds  of  the  society  came  into 
my  hands;  it  was  the  proceeds  of  a  public  meeting  held  in  behalf  of 
the  emigrant  aid  project. 

Q.  What  was  the  amount  ? — A.  Thirty-nine  dollars.  . 

Q.  What  have  you  received  since  that  time  ? — A.  I  have  received,  at 
different  times  since,  in  contributions  from  individuals  or  churches  and  so¬ 
cieties,  I  could  not  tell  precisely  how  much,  but  I  think  sixteen  hundred  and 
odd  dollars,  all  of  which  has  been  paid  out, and  ninety-eight  eentsmore, 
on  orders  drawn  by  the  president  and  secretary  of  the  society,  up  to  the 
time  that  they  resorted  to  an  auditing  committee.  Since  then  no  money 
has  been  expended  except  on  orders  signed  by  that  auditing  committee. 
The  money  was  paid  out  on  those,  and  delivered  to  the  persons  bring¬ 
ing  me  the  orders. 

Q.  Please  state  the  objects  of  those  expenditures  for  that  amount. — 
A.  Some  of  the  money  has  been  expended  to  defray  the  expense  of  halls 
for  meetings;  some  of  it  ostensibly  for  printing;  a  small  portion  of  it 
for  taking  care  of  the  emigrants  while  they  were  here  in  indigent  cir¬ 
cumstances;  some  of  it  for  transportation;  all  as  set  forth  in  the 
orders. 

Q.  The  largest  amount  was  to  pay  for  their  transportation  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir  ;  the  greatest  amount  was  for  transportation. 

Q.  Can  you  give  the  committee,  from  the  amount  of  money  you  have 
expended,  about  the  number  of  people  that  have  been  transported  by  this 
fund  from  here  to  Indiana? — A.  Well,  I  would  not  like  to  make  any 
statement  without  reference,  and  I  have  no  data  with  me  just  now,  be¬ 
cause  I  did  not  know  what  the  scope  of  your  inquiries  would  be.  I  will 
furnish  the  committee,  if  they  desire  it,  a  particular  statement. 

The  Chairman.  I  wish  you  would  do  so,  stating  especially  the  amount 
expended  for  transportation. 

Witness.  Do  you  want  a  full  and  detailed  report  regarding  the 
fund  ? 

The  Chairman.  No  ;  simply  a  statement  that  so  much  has  been  re¬ 
ceived,  and  that  it  has  been  expended  as  follows,  so  that  we  can  see  for 
what  it  has  been  expended.  And  now  please  state  whether  you  have 
taken  no  other  duties  upon  you  in  connection  with  this  emigration  mat¬ 
ter,  besides  acting  as  treasurer  of  this  society,  and  disbursing  its  funds. — 
A.  Not  at  all ;  I  have  not  had  anything  to  do  with  it,  beyond  that. 

Q.  I  suppose,  from  your  acting  as  an  officer  of  this  society,  that  you 
in  the  main  approve  of  its  purpose  ? — A.  I  approve  of  affording  every 
facility  to  every  American  citizen  to  g)  anywhere  that  he  chooses  to  go 
within  this  country  ;  and  if  he  is  not  satisfied  where  he  is,  and  the  public 
thinks  it  is  for  its  good  to  aid  him,  or  any  society  thinks  it  is  for  his 
good  to  aid  him  in  his  purpose  to  go  elsewhere,  I  would  not  interfere 
with  their  doing  so. 


36 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Iii  this  instance,  I  conceive  that  you  deem  it  to  be  for  the  public  in¬ 
terest  that  this  transfer  should  take  place,  or  you  would  not  be  connected 
with  it  % — A.  I  do  not  know  that  it  is  for  the  public  interest  so  much  as 
for  the  interest  of  the  persons  who  are  engaged  in  the  migration. 

Q.  You  were  a  citizen  of  New  York  before  you  came  here  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 


Q.  Ilave  you  ever  been  in  Indiana,  to  remain  for  any  length  of  time  ¥ — 
A.  1  have  passed  through  there;  I  have  never  spent  any  time  there. 

This  witness,  at  the  next  meeting  of  the  committee,  sent  in  the  fol¬ 
lowing  statement : 

Washington,  D.  C.,  January  22,  1880. 


Hon.  D.  W.  Vooriiees, 

Chairman  of  Exodus  Investigation  Committee  : 

Sin  :  In  pursuance  of  your  request  I  present  the  following  abstract  of  ray  account, 
as  treasurer  of  the  Emigrant  Aid  Society,  and  to  correct  ray  statement  of  yesterday, 
made  from  recollection : 


Received  from  all  sources,  from  May  6,  1879,  to  January  10,  1880 .  $2,021  08 

Expended  as  follows : 

Nov.  20.  For  transportation  of  emigrants,  as  per  vouchers .  $170  00 

Nov.  23.  For  transportation  of  emigrants,  as  per  vouchers .  63  00 

Dec.  9.  For  transportation  .of  emigrants,  as  per  vouchers .  540  00 

Dec.  10.  For  transportation  of  emigrants,  as  per  vouchers .  270  00 

Dec.  16.  For  transportation  of  emigrants,  as  per  vouchers .  468  00 

Dec.  19.  For  transportation  of  emigrants,  as  per  vouchers _ _ _  170  00 

Dec.  26.  For  transportation  of  emigrants,  as  per  vouchers .  20  00 

On  suudry  vouchers  for  other  expenses .  315  06 

-  2,023  71 


Excess  of  receipts 


2  63 


Very  respectfully, 


A.  M.  CLAPP,  Treasurer. 


\ 

On  motion  tbe  committee  adjourned  to  January  23, 1880. 


THIRD  DAY. 

Washington,  IX  C.,  Friday,  January  23, 1880. 

The  committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment.  Present,  the  chairman 
and  all  the  members.  The  taking  of  testimony  was  resumed  as  follows 

O.  S.  B.  Wall  recalled  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Mr.  Wall,  you  stated  the  other  day  that,  in  your  judgment, 
some  twenty-five  hundred,  perhaps  more,  colored  persons  had  emigrated 
from  North  Carolina  to  Indiana  up  to  this  time? — Answer.  Yes,  sir; 
but  I  do  not  wish  to  be  understood  as  pretending  to  be  accurate  in  that ; 
I  have  not  kept  any  account  of  numbers. 

Q.  We  do  not  expect  that;  you  say  that  is  your  approximate  esti¬ 
mate. — A.  I  think  so;  those  that  have  passed  through  this  way  and  in 
other  ways  from  North  Carolina  to  Indiana. 

Q.  \\  hat  proportion  of  them  were  able  to  and  did  pay  their  own  way 
from  North  Carolina  to  Indiana ! — A.  1  should  say  one-half  at  least; 
more  likely  two  thirds. 

Q.  That  would  leave  one-third  to  be  provided  for? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I 
would  qualify  that  in  this  way:  We  have  never  paid  anybody’s  wray 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  37 

from  North  Carolina  here,  to  my  knowledge ;  our  assistance  has  been 
from  this  city  west. 

Q.  Now,  repeat  your  answer. — A.  I  mean  to  say  this  :  To  my  own 
knowledge  I  think  I  can  state  positively  there  never  has  gone  a  dollar 
from  us  out  of  the  city,  or  to  help  anybody  to  come  to  this  city — to  this 
District;  but  that  our  assistance  has  been  to  persons  passing  through. 

Q.  To  Indiana? — A.  No;  not  to  Indiana  specially,  but  to  persons 
stopped  here  and  unable  to  go  further. 

Q.  Where  did  you  help  them  to  ? — A.  To  Kansas,  some  of  them. 

Q.  Did  you  help  anybody  to  Kansas  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  ? — A.  I  cannot  say  now. 

Q.  A  dozen? — A.  I  cannot  say  ;  perhaps  more. 

Q.  Did  you  help  as  many  as  fifty  ? — A.  I  cannot  say,  and  I  do  not 
care  to  be  put  on  record  as  to  the  number.  I  have  not  attended  so  much 
to  the  details  of  this  matter  as  to  having  its  general  supervision. 

Q.  Very  well ;  that  is  an  answer.  You  think  there  were  more  than  a 
dozen  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  more. 

Q.  You  stated  to  the  committee  that  you  had  made  a  certain  arrange¬ 
ment  with  the  railroad  officials,  namely,  u  to  Indiana  $9  a  head  and  $1 
drawback’7;  did  you  make  a  similar  arrangement  to  Kansas? — A.  No, 
sir;  I  think  before  I  interposed  with  the  railroads  those  going  to  Kan¬ 
sas  had  gone  on. 

Q.  Do  you  know  on  what  terms  the  railroads  took  them. to  Kansas  ? — 
A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  fare  of  a  colored  emigrant  to  Kansas  is 
from  here  over  any  line  of  road  ? — A.  I  think  that  to  any  prominent 
place  there,  such  as  Topeka  or  Lawrence,  it  is  $19  or  $20  for  emigrant 
fare. 

Q.  Did  you  ascertain  that  by  talking  with  the  railroad  officials? — A. 
No,  sir;  but  by  looking  at  a  chart  I  got  from  them  with  the  emigrant 
rates  printed  on  it. 

Q.  Did  you  go  and  make  these  arrangements  yourself  ? — A.  No,  sir  ; 
not  specially.  I  was  at  the  office  talking  to  Mr.  Coleman,  and  I  asked 
him  about  it;  not  particularly  as  to  Kansas,  but  what  the  contract 
would  be  to  all  important  points. 

Q.  But  you  state  that  the  assistance,  the  pecuniary  assistance,  given 
to  these  emigrants  by  your  society  has  consisted  in  helping  the  people 
to  go  to  Indiana  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  to  Indiana  and  elsewhere. 

Q.  Where  else? — A.  We  have  assisted  them  to  several  places.  I  do 
not  understand  all  the  places. 

Q.  We  will  get  along  faster,  Mr.  Wall,  if  you  will  give  direct  answers 
to  my  questions. — A.  I  want  to  be  explicit,  Senator. 

Q.  Now  where  did  you  help  them  to  ? — A.  I  think  in  several  cases  to 
Kansas,  and  I  know  in  several  cases  to  Ohio,  and  I  know  principally  to 
Indiana. 

Q.  Did  you  not  state  a  while  ago  that  you  did  not  assist  any  of  these 
emigrants  to  Kansas,  and  that  most  of  them  who  had  gone  through 
here  to  that  point  went  with  individual  assistance? — A.  I  did  not,  and 
if  I  did,  I  wish  to  correct  it. 

Q.  Then  you  state  that  you  assisted,  or  the  members  of  your  society 
did,  emigrants  on  their  way  to  Kansas  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  wish  to  be  cor¬ 
rect.  That  was  before  I  made  the  arrangement  with  the  railroads.  I 
mean  now  what  the  society  has  done.  We  had  several  cases,  more  than 
a  dozen  perhaps,  in  which  we  assisted  people  to  Kansas. 

Q.  I  asked  you  in  that  connection  how  much  it  cost  to  take  them  to 
Kansas,  and  you  answered  $19  or  $20. 


38 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


Senator  Vance.  I  think  it  is  $19  or  $21. 

The  Witness.  Yes,  sir  5  I  think  it  is  $21  now. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  You  say  about  two  thirds  of  these  people  transported  themselves 
to  Indiana  ?— A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  my  idea. 

Q.  That  would  leave  you  some  eight  hundred  to  be  provided  for  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir  ;  about  one-third,  at  $9. 

Q.  Now,  how  much  did  that  call  for  ?— A.  The  eight  hundred,  do  you 
mean  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir  ;  eight  hundred,  at  $9  a  head. — A.  I  could  not  state,  and, 
if  you  will  permit  me,  I  will  tell  you,  Senator - 

Q.  No,  no,  Mr.  Wall,  just  tell  me  how  much  eight  hundred,  at  $9 
a  head,  would  amount  to.  Cannot  you  do  that'? — A.  Yes,  sir;  when  I 
was  a  very  small  boy  I  could  do  that. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  ask,  and  I  want  you  to  answer. — A.  Yes,  sir ;  but 
we  did  not  pay  that  amount. 

Q.  I  waut  you  to  give  me  the  figures. — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  we  did  not 
pay  but  $8  a  head. 

Q.  Then  how  much  would  that  be?  I  will  give  you  a  chance  to  ex¬ 
plain  afterwards. — A.  That  would  be  about  $0,400. 

Q.  Now,  if  you  want  to  explain  that  you  did  not  pay  that  amount  you 
can  do  so. — A.  Well,  sir,  we  did  not  pay  that  amount  from  the  fact  that 
a  great  proportion  of  those  would  go  upon  half-fare  tickets,  and  others 
were  children  who  did  not  pay  a  cent. 

Q.  Did  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  liailroad  carry  a  number  of  people  to 
Indiana  for  nothing? — A.  Y"es,  sir  ;  a  great  many  of  them. 

Q.  By  whose  authority  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Garrett  about  it  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Cole,  the  general  passenger  agent  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  they  would  take  them  for  nothing  ! — A.  No,  sir  ; 
he  certainly  did  not. 

Q.  Why,  then,  did  they  do  it? — A.  Because  on  all  railroads  babies 
are  not  charged  for,  and  between  five  and  twelve  years  of  age  they  go 
on  halt  fare,  and  I  think  that  is  the  general  rule  not  alone  to  negro  em¬ 
igrants. 

Q.  Of  those  eight  hundred  can  you  tell  how  many  were  women  and 
children  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  cannot. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  us  anything  more  than  Mr.  Clapp  has  as  to  how  much 
money  was  paid  for  the  transportation  of  wromen  and  children  ? — A.  No, 
sir,  I  cannot. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Wall,  at  a  former  meeting  I  asked  you  if  you  would  be 
good  enough  to  bring  the  reports  of  the  society  and  what  letters  and 
correspondence  you  had  relating  to  this  exodus  movement ;  have  you 
them  with  you  this  morning  ? — A.  I  have  not  this  morning,  Senator. 
There  w  as  a  small  sort  of  mishap  by  w  hich  I  do  not  have  them.  I  asked 
the  secretary  to  let  me  have  them,  Mr.  Adams  not  being  here.  I  asked 
his  brother-in-law,  who  is  in  the  Treasury,  to  let  me  have  what  Mr. 
Adams  had  ;  but  by  some  mishap  I  did  not  get  them  until  I  started  up 
to  the  committee,  and  1  did  not  have  time  to  assort  them.  I  will  bring 
them  as  soon  as  they  are  assorted  over,  and  I  find  out  what  has  to  do 
with  the  emigration  society  and  what  has  not. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Vance  you  may  ask  Mr.  Wall  any  questions  you 
desire. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Just  a  few.  Mr.  Wall  how  long  is  it  since  you  have  been  in  North 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


39 

Carolina  ? — A.  I  clo  not  believe  I  have  been  in  the  State— I  guess  it  has 
beeu  sixteen  years;  it  might  have  been  more  than  that. 

Q.  You  have  not  been  there  for  some  time  then  ? — A.  Not  for  a  good 
while. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  know  anything,  of  your  own  knowledge,  about 
the  condition  of  the  colored  people  down  there  of  course,  not  having 
been  in  the  State  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  governor,  of  course,  from  being 
in  the  State,  but  I  know  as  to  the  condition  of  the  colored  people  there. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  it  from  personal  observation  from  seeing  it  your¬ 
self? — A.  No,  sir,  except  from  seeing  people  from  there. 

Q.  From  whom  did  you  derive  your  information  ? — A.  From  perhaps 
a  dozen  of  those  emigrants,  who  were  very  intelligent  men— candid, 
sober  men. 

^  Q.  That  is  from  those  emigrants  passing  through  here  leaving  the 
State  ? — A.  A  portion  of  it ;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  derived  any  of  your  information  from  intelligent  white 
men  of  the  State  ? — A.  I  do  not  call  to  mind  any  time  where  I  talked  to 
a  white  man  from  the  State  ;  but  I  have  read  the  papers  and  talked 
with  intelligent  colored  men  other  than  emigrants. 

Q.  In  reply  to  a  question  of  Senator  Voorhees,  in  relation  to  the  land¬ 
lord  and  tenant  act  of  Indiana,  you  stated  that  you  did  not  care  any¬ 
thing  about  it,  that  it  applied  to  all  colors  ? — A.  I  said,  if  it  did. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  to  the  contrary,  that  the  laws  of  North 
Carolina  do  not  apply  to  all  colors  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  but  I  know  of  no  law 
passed  that  would  benefit  many  white  people  that  would  benefit  but 
very  few  of  the  colored  people.  There  are  many  laws  passed  in  those 
States  where  it  is  the  meaning  and  intention  of  the  legislature  to  apply 
them  to  the  colored  people. 

Q.  You  place  that  on  a  supposition  ;  and  in  speaking  of  the  landlord 
and  tenant  act,  you  suppose  that  very  few  tenants  are  whites  ? — A.  I  do 
not  know,  sir,  that  I  think  that ;  but  there  are  a  great  many  circum¬ 
stances  that  go  to  make  up  the  facts  of  a  man’s  opinions.  I  know  that 
my  father  was  a  great  slaveholder,  and  on  his  plantations  there  were 
many  poor  whites.  The  number  of  poor  whites  was  small  compared 
with  the  slaves,  and  I  have  thought  that  since  the  war  there  would  not 
be  many  poor  whites  without  some  land, 

Q.  You  mean  compared  with  the  negroes? — A.  Yes,  sir;  if  all  re¬ 
mained  there  as  they  were  during  the  slave  time. 

Q.  You  also  stated,  Mr.  Wall,  that  North  Carolina  did,  for  a  while, 
seem  to  take  an  interest  in  the  emigration  of  the  negro,  and  that  that 
interest  had  sort  of  died  away? — A.  I  think  I  did  say  something  to  con¬ 
vey  that  impression  ;  that  last  year,  1879,  they  were  not  dispensing  so 
much  education  to  blacks  as  when  the  education  law  was  passed. 

Q.  Have  yon  seen  the  last  report  of  the  superintendent  of  education  ? 
—A.  No,  sir;  I  wish  I  could  see  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  as  a  fact,  that  the  number  of  colored  children  at¬ 
tending  the  schools  has  been  increasing  from  year  to  year  ? — A.  No, 
sir  ;  but  I  should  not  be  surprised  if  it  were  so. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  amount  of  taxation  authorized  by  the  State  for 
common  schools  this  year  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  have  seen  no  report  of  it. 

Q.  Then  you  have  no  report  from  which  to  say  that  education  in  the 
State  is  not  increasing? — A.  I  respectfully  beg  to  differ  from  the  Sena¬ 
tor.  I  think  I  had  information. 

Q.  Was  it  from  documents,  official  reports,  and  things  of  that  sort  ? — 
A.  I  think  that  would  be  the  best  evidence,  but  I  do  not  consider  there 
is  no  other  way  of  knowing  the  fact. 


40 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Well,  you  have  no  information,  I  believe  you  said,  that  the  colored 
people  had  been  subjected  to  any  political  persecution  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina? — A.  No,  sir;  not  as  we  understand  it  to  be  in  Mississippi  and 
Louisiana,  where  they  are  treated  very  badly.  There  is  not  that  sort  of 
treatment  in  North  Carolina  ;  but  I  have  heard  a  number  of  these  emi¬ 
grants  say  that  in  various  ways  they  have  had  intimidation  and  things 
of  that  sort.  I  have  never  made  that  question  in  the  society  giving  aid 
to  emigrants. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  colored  people  bulldozing  each  other? — A. 
No,  sir;  I  have  not;  but  I  should  not  be  surprised  if  they  did  do  it. 

Q.  You  should  not  be  suprised  if  they  did ;  do  you  know  if  a  colored 
man  voted  the  Democratic  ticket  if  his  own  people  bulldozed  him  and 
subjected  his  life  to  danger? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  know  as  lever 
heard  of  an  instance. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  the  laws  in  North  Carolina  make  any  difference 
between  colored  people  and  others? — A.  No,  sir;  I  know  of  no  law  that 
does  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  in  Kansas,  to  which  you  have  been  helping 
these  people,  that  the  word  “white”  is  in  the  constitution,  and  that  they 
do  not  prevent  colored  people  from  voting  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  know  of  no 
differences  there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  the  word  “white”  is  in  the  constitution? — A. 
No,  sir ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  in  18GG  the  word  “  white”  was  in  the  constitu¬ 
tion,  and  the  people  objected  to  striking  it  out  by  a  constitutional 
amendment  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  know  that  it  was  when  Kansas  was  a  Terri¬ 
torial  State,  but  I  do  not  think  there  are  any  distinctions  made  there  now; 
but  if  you  tell  me  that  it  is  there  I  shall  believe  it. 

Q.  I  said  it  because  I  was  asking  you  if  you  were  sending  people  to 
a  State  with  the  guaranty  of  all  their  rights  where  the  word  “  white”  is 
in  the  constitution? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  as  to  that. 

Q.  And  all  this  that  you  have  testified  about  the  wages  of  laborers 
and  the  paying  of  them  in  store-orders  and  their  coming  out  at  the  end 
of  the  year  without  money,  you  got  all  that  from  the  colored  emigrants? 
— A.  Principally;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  from  farm  operations  generally  that  a  farm  is  some¬ 
times  from  fifteen  to  twenty  miles  from  town  and  that  the  colored 
people  frequently  cannot  go  to  town  to  make  their  purchases,  and  these 
colored  stores  are  established  for  the  mutual  convenience  of  the  landlord 
and  tenants,  and  these  advances  are  made  to  them  for  their  own  accom¬ 
modation  ?  That  is  not  an  unusual  thing,  is  it,  in  such  places  where 
farming  is  carried  on? — A.  No,  sir;  I  believe  not. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  Of  what  class  is  your  society  composed,  white  or  colored? — A. 
Colored  people,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  proportion? — A.  I  do  not  know  as  we  have  a  white  mem¬ 
ber,  except  Mr.  Adams,  and  he  is  not  here,  and  has  not  been  here  for 
some  time.  I  do  not  know  whether  Mr.  Mendenhall  considers  himself  a 
member.  If  he  does,  he  is  a  white  man. 

Q.  What  was  the  motive  and  purpose  of  organizing  this  society? — 
A.  In  the  first  place  we  thought  of  the  condition  of  the  colored  people 
in  the  District  of  Columbia;  that  there  was  a  great  many  of  them  here, 
far  more  than  had  enough  to  do,  and  that  Congress  was  making  appro¬ 
priations  for  their  support  from  year  to  year,  and  they  were  the  recipi¬ 
ents  of  government  charity.  I  think  I  sent  a  communication  to  Con- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


41 


gress  at  one  time  that  the  colored  people  could  not  be  made  a  good  peo¬ 
ple  so  long  as  they  were  the  recipients  of  charity,  and  inasmuch  as 
they  themselves  would  not  like  to  raise  their  children  in  this  way,  in 
that  spirit  of  self-supporting  independence  I  asked  Congress  to  make 
an  appropriation  to  help  us  get  them'West  and  settle  them,  and  bridge 
them  over  for  a  year  or  so,  taking  a  mortgage  on  their  lands.  I  thought 
it  would  be  best  for  the  country  to  do  that  instead  of  feeding  them  with 
soup  here  in  the  city  from  year  to  year. 

Q.  Was  this  society  organized  before  there  was  any  movement  of  the 
colored  people  from  the  States  I — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  principally  to  get  these  people — colored  people— away  from 
the  District? — A.  Yres,  sir;  it  was  organized  long  before  the  exodus 
began. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  when  you  first  made  this  move?— A.  I  believe  it 
was  two  and  a  half  or  may  be  three  months  before  the  movement.  I 
could  see  the  exact  date. 

Q.  When  was  this  circular  issued;  after  the  movement  from  the 
States  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  a  long  time  after  we  organized. 

Q.  Senator  Yance  asked  you  as  to  North  Carolina. — A.  We  had  no 
reference  to  North  Carolina  in  that  circular.  We  had  our  eyes  directed 
to  this  great  movement  west  of  the  Mississippi  river,  and  to  Illinois  and 
other  States. 

Q.  Then  the  incessant  strife  to  which  you  refer  in  this  circular  had  no 
reference  to  North  Carolina  ? — A.  We  should  not  have  thought  of  that 
State  if  the  people  down  there  had  not  come  and  told  us  and  excited 
our  sympathy.  We  then  thought  the  operations  of  our  society  might 
as  well  apply  to  them  as  to  any  other  people,  for  it  was  only  giviugaid 
to  human  beings  in  distress.  At  the  time  of  issuing  the  circular  we  had 
no  knowledge  of  any  other  movement,  and  no  reference  to  North  Caro¬ 
lina. 

Q.  I  do  not  believe  you  stated  where  the  contributions  to  your  society 
came  from.  Please  state  it. — A.  They  came  from  churches  and  indi¬ 
viduals.  I  believe  Colonel  Ingersoll  gave  us  a  hundred  dollars. 

Q.  Was  that  in  a  public  hall? — A.  Yes,  sir;  in  a  public  meeting. 
Then  Mr.  Douglass  got  for  us  $250  from  Miss  Elizabeth  Thompson. 

Q.  Mr.  Douglass  is  opposed  to  the  exodus,  is  he  not? — A.  lres,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  get  it  solely  as  a  charitable  contribution? — A.  YYs,  sir;  I 
told  him  when  I  went  to  his  office,  and  said  to  him  that  the  people  were 
here,  and  that  they  needed  it,  and  that  I  heard  he  had  $250  to  help 
them.  He  said  that,  yes ;  as  the  people  were  here  he  would  assist  them. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  at  whose  suggestion  you  made  the  arrangement 
with  the  railroad  authorities  for  the  transportation  of  these  people  to 
Indiana,  and  whether  you  knew  of  people  sent  out  there  by  the  sugges¬ 
tion  of  their  agents  or  otherwise  ? — A.  They  had  been  sending  people 
by  the  railroads  for  some  time,  sending  them  in  little  lots,  as  I  was  told 
by  Mr.  Adams  and  others.  It  was  quite  a  while  before  I  went  to  see 
them,  but  I  heard  a  great  deal  about  their  talk,  but  as  it  was  vague 
rumor  I  got  over  in  the  cars  to  see  them.  I  knew  there  were  many  kind 
people  contributing  funds  to  the  society,  and  1  thought  it  due  to  them 
to  see  the  condition  of  these  people  and  get  the  best  rates  that  I  could 
for  them,  so  that  I  could  speak  to  the  society  and  tell  them  what  we  had 
done.  Still,  we  never  had  any  regular  meeting  about  it,  but  I  went  for 
that  reason  to  Baltimore  to  see  their  general  agents.  Some  persons 
said  we  could  get  better  rates  over  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio,  and  some 
said  the  Baltimore  and  Potomac,  but  I  went  to  see  them  for  mysell. 


42 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  What  rate  did  yon  get;  eight  dollars  with  a  dollar  drawback  to  go 
to  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  nineteen  to  twenty-one  to  Kansas  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  it  was  cheaper  to  go  to  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  we  were 
glad  when  they  went  there  on  that  account. 

Q.  What  reports  did  you  get  as  to  their  getting  employment  out 
there? — A.  We  had  good  reports.  We  said  we  did  not  want  to  send 
them  where  they  would  not  be  provided  for.  Our  object  was  to  aid 
them  in  securing  good  homes  and  employment  and  not  to  benefit  any 
particular  person.  We  sent  them  out  there,  and  I  have  letters  that  I 
can  bring  to  you  showing  that  they  are  satisfied.  It  was  our  object,  as 
I  say,  to  provide  for  them  in  that  way. 

Q.  State  again  on  what  you  base  your  estimate  of  2,500  who  have 
gone  to  Indiana,  and  whether  all  of  them  were  from  North  Carolina? — 
A.  I  think  not  all,  but  I  think  they  are  mostly  from  there.  I  may  have 
missed  the  figures  one-half,  for  I  made  no  note  of  it  as  they  passed 
through.  I  did  no  clerical  duty  about  the  organization,  but  from  the 
numbers  who  have  passed  through  at  the  depot  and  information  I  got 
in  one  way  and  another  it  just  seemed  so. 

Q.  If  you  have  been  mistaken  iu  the  figure,  which  way  do  you  think 
the  mistake  has  been  made  ? — A.  I  overestimated  it,  for  I  have  been 
thinking  of  it  overnight. 

Q.  Does  anybody  here  know  the  number? — A.  I  think  Mr.  Dukehart 
would  know.  He  was  summoned  as  a  witness  here. 

Q.  You  do  not  pretend  to  know  the  number  yourself? — A.  No,  sir;  I 
do  not. 

Q.  You  say  that  you  might  have  heard  of  colored  people  bulldozing 
•each  other?  What  is  the  extent  of  your  information  on  that  point? — 
A.  As  the  Senator  has  inquired,  the  great  mass  of  them  are  opposed  to 
a  colored  man  voting  the  Democratic  ticket,  and  where  one  is  inclined 
that  way  they  have  been  apt  to  think  he  was  a  renegade  and  to  threaten 
violence  to  him.  I  spoke  of  their  bulldozing  in  that  sense. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  would  be  likely  to  do  that  to  one  another  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know  the  sentiments  of  the  colored  people  in  North 
Carolina,  what  are  they,  Democrats  or  Republicans  ? — A,  They  are  Re¬ 
publicans. 

Q.  Then  how  do  you  account  for  a  Democrat  carrying  a  certain  dis¬ 
trict  in  North  Carolina,  Kitchen’s  district ;  how  do  you  account  for  its 
going  Democratic  when  there  is  a  large  majority  of  colored  voters  in 
that  district  ? 

Senator  Vance.  There  were  two  Republican  candidates,  Senator. 
The  aggregate  vote  showed  a  large  Republican  majority,  and  Mr.  O’Hara 
got  a  large  majority  over  his  Republican  opponents  in  the  contest. 

Senator  Blair.  He  claims  that  he  was  counted  out. 

Senator  V  ance.  Yes,  sir;  counted  out  by  the  county  returning  boards. 

Q-  (By  Senator  WTndom.)  I  will  ask  you  as  to  your  information  about 
-the  treatment  of  the  colored  people  in  North  Carolina  several  years  ago, 
during  the  time  of  the  Ku-Klux  ? — A.  That  I  understood  only,  but  I 
understood  it  to  be  the  same  as  in  other  States  farther  southwest  where 
my  attention  was  called. 

Q.  How  do  you  account  for  the  exodus  from  the  States  of  Louisiana 
and  Mississippi? — A.  I  think  it  is  on  account  of  the  abuses  the  colored 
people  have  received. 

Q.  What  character  of  abuses? — A.  Almost  every  kind.  They  were 
not  only  maltreated  by  those  in  whose  employ  they  were,  but  greatly 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  43 

outraged  as  to  their  rights  to  vote,  and  intimidation  ruled  almost  broad¬ 
cast. 

Q.  State  as  to  the  effect  this  treatment  in  those  localities  has  had  on 
the  colored  race. — A.  It  has  had  the  effect  to  demoralize  them  and  make 
them  discontented  throughout  the  whole  South. 

Q.  State  if  they  have  not  a  general  apprehension  of  danger  and  mal¬ 
treatment  all  through  that  section.— A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  where  they 
are  even  treated  best  their  treatment  is  such  as  to  demoralize  them  and 
frighten  them. 

Q.  Would  that  have  a  tendency  to  make  them  wish  to  leave  and  go 
somewhere  else"? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  so. 

By  Senator  Yance: 

Q.  You  do  not  understand  that  the  second  district  of  North  Carolina 
was  carried  for  the  Democrats  by  any  violence,  intimidation,  or  threats 
on  the  part  of  the  white  people? — A.  No,  sir;  I  understood  that  Mr. 
O’Hara  carried  it  fairly,  but  on  account  of  the  manipulations  of  those 
in  control,  the  Democrats,  he  was  cheated  out  of  it. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  it  was  the  Democrats  who  did  that? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  that  some  of  the  votes  cast  for  him  were  thrown  out  unfairly,  and 
if  he  had  had  the  benefit  of  them  he  would  now  have  his  seat. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  those  large  Republican  counties,  where 
they  have  three  thousand  Republican  majority,  that  they  are  in  the  hands 
of  Democratic  county  officers? — A.  They  are. 

Q.  How  did  they  get  in? — A.  I  think  the  same  way  as  they  get  to 
Congress. 

Q.  Well,  they  would  have  to  have  a  start  before  they  could  get  in  to 
do  these  things.  How  did  they  get  in  ? — A,  Well,  sir,  in  this  same  way, 
I  suppose. 

Q.  Take  the  counties  of  Edgecombe,  Halifax,  and  Warren.  Do  you 
understand  that  they  were  actually  in  tfie  hands  of  the  Democratic 
county  officers? — A.  No,  sir;  but  I  take  the  aggregated  number  of  votes 
in  all  the  counties;  those  votes  have  to  be  aggregated,  and  my  informa¬ 
tion,  I  think,  is  reliable,  though  I  may  be  mistaken,  that  in  the  aggre¬ 
gate  there  was  this  deficiency  ;  that  if  there  had  been  a  proper  aggregate 
made  of  the  votes  Mr.  O’Hara  would  have  been  elected. 

Q.  I  know  that  is  true,  that  the  aggregates  are  made  up  in  that  man¬ 
ner;  but  I  want  to  know  whether  you  say  the  blame  is  on  the  Demo¬ 
cratic  officers? — A.  I  say  that  as  far  as  I  know  the  blame  is  on  the 
Democratic  party  and  people. 

Q.  In  that  district  ? — A.  I  do  uot  want  to  particularize  specially. 
The  county  officials  in  all  those  counties  I  named  to  you  are  all  Re¬ 
publicans. 

Q.  You  say  you  do  not  know  that  as  a  fact  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  all  the  men  who  have  come  here  from  North  Carolina  come 
from  that  district? — A.  I  think  so,  mostly  ;  but  I  could  not  state  posi¬ 
tively,  and  I  do  not  claim  that  their  greatest  trouble  is  interference  with 
their  political  rights. 

Q.  Now,  the  districts  adjoining,  the  one  to  the  southeast  and  the  one 
to  the  west,  are  close  districts,  are  they  not  ? — A.  1  understand  so 

Q.  And  there  has  been  no  emigration  from  the  close  districts,  but 
all  of  it  has  been  from  those  large  Republican  districts,  where  the  votes 
could  be  spared? — A.  I  have  had  no  particulars  except  as  those  people 
landed  here,  and  no  particular  data  as  to  where  they  came  from. 

Q.  Didn’t  it  strike  you  as  a  little  more  than  an  accident  that  the  em¬ 
igration  nearly  all  came  from  that  large  Republican  district  and  went 


44 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


to  this  large  Democratic  State  ;  didn’t  it  look  a  little  more  like  design 
than  accident? — A.  Governor,  from  your  standpoint  it  may,  but  I  know 
I  have  no  knowledge  of  any  preconcerted  plan  or  arrangement  with 
anybody  in  North  Carolina  to  forward  this  movement;  but  our  only  con¬ 
nection  with  these  people  has  been  when  they  came  here  and  told  their 
own  simple  story.  There  has  been  no  arrangement  made  by  us  with 
these  people  in  North  Carolina. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  Mr.  Wall,  I  wish  you  to  state,  from  your  entire  knowledge  of  the 
subject-matter  derived  as  a  member  of  the  society  or  from  public  persons 
or  connection  with  colored  men,  and  from  all  sources  or  any  source  of 
knowledge  whatever,  whether  this  exodus  originated  in  or  is  promoted 
by  any  political  arrangement  outside  of  the  States  where  these  people 
reside. — A.  That  is  from  the  Northern  States,  you  mean  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir. — A.  I  have  no  knowledge  of  the  originating  of  this  move¬ 
ment  by,  through,  or  with  the  assistance  of  any  political  influence. 

Q.  My  question  is  also  whether  it  is  being  promoted  by  any  influence 
whatever"? — A.  No,  sir;  none  whatever.  I  know  of  no  money  that  has 
been  used  to  assist  it  that  came  from  any  political  sources  whatever. 

Q.  From  your  relation  to  and  connection  with  the  colored  race  of  the 
country,  and  your  residence  and  opportunities  for  getting  knowledge,  if 
there  was  any  such  influence  promoting  the  exodus,  do  you  think  you 
would  know  it  ? — A.  I  think  I  should. 

Q.  Is  there  any  colored  man  in  the  United  States,  you  think,  who 
would  know  better  than  yourself? — A.  No,  sir;  I  think  I  should  be  as 
likely  to  know  as  anybody. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  business  arrangement  in  the  North  that  is 
employing  and  stimulating  this  movement? — A.  No,  sir;  none. 

Q.  It  has  been  suggested  that  some  railroad  companies  have  been 
stimulating  it  for  the  purpose  of  increasing  their  railroad  patronage. — 
A.  No,  sir;  I  was  asked  that,  and  I  would  like  to  be  allowed  to  correct 
myself.  I  see  in  this  miserable  Post  here  it  makes  me  say  that  Mr. 
Dukeharthad  been  down  there  stirring  them  up;  but  I  wish  to  say  that  he 
has  been  down  there  the  same  as  any  other  agent  for  a  railroad  seeking 
patronage.  I  stated  expressly  that  he  was  not  stirring  them  up,  to  my 
knowledge,  and  I  suppose  I  was  reported  correctly. 

Senator  Vance.  It  is  in  the  record,  and  I  have  no  doubt  you  are  cor¬ 
rectly  reported. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  You  state  you  know  nothing  of  any  political  or  business  influence 
which  is  at  the  bottom  of  this  movement.  I  would  like  for  you,  in  a  few 
words,  to  explain  to  the  committee  what  you  think  is  the  philosophy  of 
the  movement;  what  you  think  is  the  relative  importance  of  the  move¬ 
ment  in  North  Carolina,  and  whether  it  has  any  particular  significance 
or  whether  it  is  but  an  incident  of  a  general  movement. — A.  I  will  say 
to  the  latter  part  of  your  inquiry,  that  it  may  not  be  an  extensive  move¬ 
ment  in  North  Carolina,  but  as  soon  as  the  masses  in  North  Carolina 
and  the  people  there  generally  learn  of  the  success  of  their  friends,  I 
think  they  will  be  influenced  just  as  other  people  are,  and  that  in  time 
it  will  become  a  general  movement. 

Q.  Perhaps  you  do  not  understand  me.  I  am  not  speaking  of  the 
laboring  classes,  or  asking  about  them  ;  but  I  ask  you,  judging  from  all 
causes  and  influences  which  you  know  to  be  operating  upon  this  move¬ 
ment,  is  it  likely  to  be  as  great  from  North  Carolina  as  it  is  from  other 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


45 


parts  of  the  South  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  as  I  stated,  1  think  it  will  be  general, 
growing  greater  as  those  who  go  before  have  succeeded. 

Q.  You  have  stated  some  of  the  causes  to  be  in  the  nature  of  abuses 
put  upon  the  colored  people ;  do  you  think  those  abuses  are  as  great  in 
North  Carolina  as  they  are  in  other  Southern  States  ? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Then  why  will  the  movement  assume  such  proportions  in  North 
Carolina  as  it  has  in  other  States  ? — A.  Because  I  think  this  excitement 
and  disturbances  about  the  time  of  elections  will  come  on  once  in  a  while. 
While  these  people  are  a  laboring  class  of  people,  and  live  in  rural’ dis¬ 
tricts,  they  will  not  suffer  so  much  from  them  in  North  Carolina  as  they 
have  elsewhere;  but  the  advantages  of  the  Northwest  are  so  much 
greater  that  they  will  become  acquainted  with  them,  and  move  right 
along.  I  think,  because  of  the  many  advantages  of  the  Northwest  that 
cannot  be  had  in  North  Carolina,  there  will  be  a  movement  from  the 
one  State  to  the  others.  For  instance,  the  soil  is  not  so  good  in  North 
Carolina  as  it  is  in  the  Northwest  ;  and  another  great  matter  of  im¬ 
portance  to  them  is  their  school  advantages. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  the  school  advantages  in  North  Carolina  are 
less  than  they  are  in  Mississippi  and  Louisiana,  or  where  this  great  per¬ 
secution  is  of  which  we  hear  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Many  of  the  questions  here  seem  to  be  particularly  directed  to 
North  Carolina,  as  though  this  is  a  North  Carolina  movement  specially. 
Do  you  so  understand  it  ? — A.  No,  sir;  not  at  all.  I  did  not  have  North 
Carolina  in  my  mind  when  I  interested  myself  about  the  exodus. 

Q.  I  do  not  understand  that  your  organization  had  anything  to  do 
with  the  exodus'? — A.  No,  sir;  not  at  first. 

Q.  Now,  as  to  the  North  Carolina  exodus,  do  you  look  on  it  as  the 
principal  movement,  or  is  the  exodus  from  other  States  to  be  regarded 
as  the  principal  portion  of  the  movement'? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  the 
exodus  in  the  Southwestern  States  is  the  principal  part  of  the  move¬ 
ment. 

Q.  And  the  North  Carolina  movement  you  regard  as  an  incident  of 
it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  state  that  the  soil  in  the  Northwest  is  better  than  in  the 
Southern  States'? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  I  understand  you  that  political  proscription  is  less  in  North 
Carolina  than  in  those  other  Southern  States  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  yet  you  think  that  other  advantages  in  the  Northwest  and 
persecutions  in  the  South  are  the  cause  of  this  movement  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  then,  will  you  please  state  your  philosophy  of  the  exodus? 
—A.  This  would  be  my  theory:  Just  after  ttie  war  our  people  were  in 
good  condition.  From  the  wreck  of  matter  and  the  crush  of  worlds  that 
passed  over  us  our  people  emerged  into  a  condition  where  there  seemed 
to  be  a  little  sunlight,  and  iuto  what  was  for  a  while  a  better  state  of 
things,  and,  to  use  the  language  that  Senator  Vance  used,  our  stars 
seemed  to  be  rising.  We  got  along  for  several  years  very  well  until 
there  were  several  failures  in  the  law  or  failure  to  support  the  enforce¬ 
ment  act  properly,  when  the  men  who  had  been  in  the  rebellion  came  into 
power  m  those  States,  and  they,  as  seemed  to  be  natural  with  them,  took 
control  of  their  State  governments  which  they  had  not  had  under  the  car¬ 
pet-brig  governments,  and  then  the  things  relapsed  into  pretty  much 
their  old  condition  ;  and  since  then  the  pressure  goes  on  as  all  other  op¬ 
pressions  do  until  we  have  gotiutoastateof  things  so  dark  and  oppressive 
that  there  must  be  some  ventilation.  There  must  be  something  to  make 
us  free  again.  In  order  to  do  this  and  get  into  a  better  condition  I  be¬ 
lieve  the  exodus  began.  I  believe  it  was  a  spontaneous  movement,  and 


46 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


if  anybody  had  any  agency  in  it  it  was  our  Heavenly  Father,  the  great 
Creator  of  us  all. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  possible  for  the  controlling  element  in  the  South¬ 
ern  States — that  is,  for  the  Democratic  party,  by  any  chauge  in  its 
policy  towards  the  colored  people,  to  gradually  put  an  end  to  the  exo¬ 
dus? —  A.  I  do  think  that. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  negro  wants  to  go  away  from  there  if  he  n  treated 
well? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  think  it  is  his  nature  to  be  religious  and  contented 
if  he  is  treated  well  at  home. 

Q.  Do  you  think  any  white  population  would  be  willing  to  reside  long 
at  the  North  or  at  the  South  under  the  same  conditions  that  the  blacks 
have  been  subjected  to,  and  would  the  exodus  have  taken  place  ? — A. 
From  my  knowledge  of  the  East  and  observation  of  the  white  race, 
I  know  they  would  not  have  remained. 

Q.  Is  there  any  change  of  treatment  possible  from  the  dominant  peo¬ 
ple  in  the  South,  do  you  think? — A.  I  think  the  exodus  will  not  cease 
until  these  people  get  a  change  from  that  treatment  which  prevails 
there.  I  think  it  would  then,  and  that  the  colored  people  had  better 
stay  there  than  in  the  North. 

Q.  Why? — A.  Because  just  after  the  war,  and  after  this  millennium 
there  was  going  on  in  the  South,  my  father  sent  me  to  the  South.  I  did 
gravitate  in  that  direction  ;  but  the  matter  got  to  be  so  luminous  pretty 
soon  that  I  stopped  right  here. 

Q.  Ominous  you  mean,  instead  of  luminous? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  say  that  such  was  the  fact,  and  that  such  was  the  condi¬ 
tion  at  the  South  that  the  negro  began  to  gravitate  towards  the  South? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  his  old  and  familiar  associations  led  him  towards 
the  land  of  his  home.  His  parents  would  like  taking  him  there.  I  do 
not  think  so  much  of  this  idea  of  a  hot  climate  for  the  negro  as  others 
do.  But  this  land  gave  them  a  good  climate,  but  a  poor  soil ;  but  I 
thought  they  might  overcome  that. 

Q.  According  to  your  explanation,  I  think,  under  the  good  teachings 
of  Senator  Yance  this  State  can  be  made  the  Indiana  of  the  exodus  ? — 
A.  lres,  sir;  I  think  so. 

By  Seuator  VANCE  : 

Q.  \rou  say  you  have  got  reports  from  these  people  in  Indiana* 
Who  have  made  them  to  you  ? — A.  The  principal  reports  that  I  have 
were  made  by  a  young  man  who  seemed  to  have  been  employed  by  these 
people  to  get  them  a  place  to  settle  in. 

Q.  Who  were  they? — A.  They  were  Perry  and  Williams;  but  I  have 
letters  from  others. 

Q.  The  principal  reports  as  to  employment  of  these  people  here  are 
from  Perry  and  Williams? — A.  Yes,  sir:  so  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  Perry  and  Williams  don’t  live  in  Indiana,  do  they  ? — A.  No,  sir; 
not  permanently. 

Q.  Did  they  ever  live  there  at  all  ? — A.  No,  sir;  except  to  go  there 
on  this  business. 

Q.  Did  they  ever  have  a  residence  there? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir;  they 
are  strangers  to  me. 

Q.  Where  do  they  live  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  where  Mr.  Williams  lives, 
but  Mr.  Perry  lives  here. 

Q.  What  is  he  doing  ? — A.  He  is  temporarily  remaining  here,  meet¬ 
ing  the  people  coming  from  his  State. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  that? — A.  He  is  temporarily  here,  but  I 
think,  from  what  he  said  to  me,  that  he  is  going  West. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  47 

Q.  Where  is  he  now  ? — A.  He  is  here  with  his  family,  living  in  a 
house. 

Q.  Where  at  ?  I  have  been  looking  for  him,  and  should  like  very 
much  to  know  his  whereabouts. — A.  He  is  here  with  his  wife  and 
children,  I  think  in  a  house  ou  University  street. 

Q.  How  long? — A.  I  think  he  has  been  there  two  months. 

Q.  Where  did  he  come  from  ? — A.  I  think  he  came  from  North 
Carolina. 

Q.  How  often  has  he  been  to  Indiana  ? — A.  I  think  three  or  four 
times. 

Q.  When  ? — A.  Within  the  past  two  or  three  months. 

Q.  How  old  a  man  is  he? — A.  I  should  think  about  thirty  years  old. 

Q.  Then  he  reports  to  you  that  there  is  a  demand  out  there  for  these 
people  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  so  a  little  while  ago  ? — A.  I  understood 
you  to  make  a  remark  as  to  ready  employment.  He  says  there  is  ready 
employment  there  for  those  he  has  carried  out. 

Q.  How  many  has  he  carried  out? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir;  I  cannot 
answer. 

Q.  Who  can  ? — A.  Mr.  Williams. 

Q.  Where  did  he  carry  them  ? — A.  I  said  the  other  day  I  thought  to 
Greencastle,  and  I  thought  about  Indianapolis. 

Q.  I  am  just  examining  you,  Mr.  Wall,  about  as  to  what  he  says.  You 
are  not  responsible,  understand,  for  what  he  says. — A.  I  am  not  saying 
anything  about  the  means  he  employed,  but  simply  what  he  told  me. 

Q.  You  have  answered  when  you  said  that  he  took  them  in  and  about 
Greencastle? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  about  Terre  Haute  or  Rockvale? — A.  Yes, 
sir ;  I  think  so. 

Q.  That  they  could  get  ready  employment  on  farms  out  there  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  get  homes  to  move  into  on  these  farms  at  this  time  of  the 
year? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  got  that  impression  somewhere.  I  don’t  know 
that  I  heard  it  from  him  ;  but  I  got  the  impression  that  they  were  set¬ 
tled  on  these  places  and  conveniently  situated. 

Q.  Where  does  Williams  live  ? — A.  I  could  not  tell  you. 

Q.  Where  did  you  see  him  ? — A.  I  saw  him  in  Washington  City. 

Q.  When  ? — A.  I  should  think  six  weeks  or  two  months  ago.  The 
poor  fellow  was  shivering  and  I  gave  him  one  of  my  overcoats. 

Q.  Did  he  say  there  was  ready  employment  to  do  there  for  these  peo¬ 
ple  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  it  suggest  itself  to  you  to  tell  him  to  go  out  there  and  get  some 
of  it  when  he  was  shivering  and  you  had  to  give  him  one  of  your  over¬ 
coats  ? — A.  I  don’t  think  it  did.  I  thought  he  had  been  badly  treated 
by  some  people  here,  and  thought  I  ought  to  obey  the  Bible  injunction, 
when  I  had  two  coats,  to  give  my  brother  one. 

Q.  You  did  not  think  that  Governor  Yance’s  constituents  had  stolen 
his  coat,  did  you  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not.  No,  sir;  but  I  thought  the 
poor  fellow  had  been  badly  treated. 

Q.  He  was  connected  with  this  exodus  matter,  was  he  not? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Did  he  come  accredited  to  you  in  any  way  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  I  was  asking  you  whether  he  was  accredited  to  you  by  anybody 
you  knew,  so  that  you  would  as  a  matter  of  business  trust  him  ? — A. 
No,  sir;  I  do  not  know  whether  it  was  Williams  or  Perry  who,  when 


48 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


they  came,  showed  me  a  certificate  of  good  character  signed  by  the 
mayor  or  sheriff  of  Goldsborough. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  which  it  was? — A.  Iso,  sir;  I  do  not  know  whether 
it  was  Williams  or  Perry ;  perhaps  it  was  Perry,  who  said  that  he  was  a 
preacher,  and  I  got  the  impression  that  he  was  a  good,  honest,  upright 
man. 

Q.  You  have  not  seen  Williams  since? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  no  trace  of  him  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  there  was  ready  employment  in  Indiana  for  these 
emigrants? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where? — A.  I  do  not  remember  the  counties;  I  think  one  was 
Elkhart. 

Q.  What  other  county  do  you  remember  ? — A.  I  think  Wayne  County  ; 
perhaps  at  Kichmoud,  Wayne  County. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  any  negroes  who  had  gone  in  there  ? — A.  I  think 
some  have  gone  in  there. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  ascertain  if  any  have,  as  you  have  better  means 
of  information  on  that  point  than  I.  See  whether  any  single  car-load 
has  ever  been  left  there.  Do  you  kuow  what  the  politics  of  that  county 
are? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  a  large  Republican  county  ;  I  think  it  is  Repub¬ 
lican. 

Q.  And  these  conversations,  you  say,  with  Perry  and  Williams  were 
your  principal  sources  of  information,  but  you  said  that  you  had  letters 
from  there.  Now,  from  whom  have  you  letters;  give  me  a  single  in¬ 
stance  of  a  letter  assuring  you  of  ready  employment  for  colored  people 
in  that  State  ? — A.  I  cannot  state  the  name  just  now. 

Q.  Where  are  those  letters  ? — A.  They  are  on  my  desk,  as  I  stated 
to  the  Senator,  but  I  cannot  remember  whom  they  are  from. 

Q.  You  do  not  remember  the  names  of  the  writers? — A.  No,  sir;  they 
are  all  strangers  to  me. 

Q.  Certainly,  but  do  you  remember  w  hat  post  offices  they  came  from  ? 
— A.  No,  sir;  I  cannot  remember. 

Q.  Can  you  remember  the  points  contained  in  those  letters  ? — A.  No, 
sir;  they  will  show  for  themselves. 

Q.  How  many  have  you  received  assuring  you  of  ready  employment 
for  colored  laborers  in  Indiana  ? — A.  A  few. 

Q.  Give  their  number  as  far  as  you  can. — A.  I  cannot  say. 

Q.  How  many,  a  half  dozen  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  I  told  you  that  I  gave 
the  matter  of  the  letters  over  to  the  secretary. 

Q.  Wasn’t  it  evolved  more  from  an  inner  consciousness  of  your  own 
than  any  information  you  have? — A.  No,  sir;  no,  indeed. 

Q.  We  want  the  facts,  Mr.  Wall,  and  I  mean  to  treat  you  with  the 
utmost  courtesy. — A.  You  have,  Senator. 

Q.  Of  course  I  do ;  and  I  say  to  you  that  if  it  is  not  a  belief  evolved 
from  your  inner  consciousness  and  you  have  facts  about  this  matter  upon 
which  to  base  your  opinion,  I  would  be  obliged  for  you  to  give  them  to 
us. — A.  I  will  hand  you  such  statements  from  honorable,  fair  men.  I 
will  be  able  to  give  the  names  of  veritable  men,  and  also  statements 
made  in  newspapers  of  the  facts  out  there,  all  of  which  will  show  how  I 
make  up  my  opinion. 

Q.  Now,  you  say  you  have  veritable  letters  from  fair  and  honorable 
men.  Now,  I  say  give  me  the  name  of  one  man  such  as  you  have  de¬ 
scribed. — A.  Well,  I  say - 

Q.  No,  no,  give  me  the  name  of  one  such  man. — A.  Well,  sir,  there 

Mr.  Mendenhall. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  40 

Q.  Does  he  live  in  Indiana  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  he  lives  in  Washington,  and 
he  is  in  this  room  here  now. 

Q.  That  is  all  right.  I  will  ask  him  about  it. — A.  I  think  I  have  a 
letter  by  Mr.  Walker,  of  Terre  Haute. 

Q.  J.  H.  Walker,  of  Terre  Haute*? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was  accredited 
with  bringing  his  name  up  the.other  day  in  the  matter. 


TESTIMONY  OF  JAMES  E.  O’HARA,  COLORED. 

James  E.  O’Hara  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside0? — Answer.  Near  Enfield,  Halifax 
County,  North  Carolina. 

Q.  State  what  positions  you  have  held  in  North  Carolina. — A.  I  have 
been  five  years  chairman  of  the  board  of  county  commissioners  of  Hali¬ 
fax  County,  engrossing  clerk  of  the  constitutional  convention  in  1868, 
and  member  of  the  constitutional  convention  in  1875,  and  I  was  in  the 
last  election  nominated  as  elector  on  the  Presidential  ticket,  and  nomi¬ 
nated  for  Congress  from  the  second  district. 

Q.  You  were  nominated  as  a  member  of  Congress  from  the  second 
district,  and  you  claim  to  have  been  elected  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  are  here  now  contesting  for  your  seat*? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  O’Hara,  will  you  give  us,  first,  your  opinion  as  to  the 
general  condition  of  the  colored  people  of  your  country,  and  then  I  will 
ask  you  some  questions  *? — A.  The  general  condition  of  the  people  would 
not  be  considered  flourishing  when  compared  with  that  of  the  people  in 
more  prosperous  States.  In  fact,  the  general  condition  of  all  the  people, 
white  and  black,  in  the  cotton-fields  is  not  very  prosperous.  That,  I 
may  say,  is  owiug  to  our  mode  of  farming  in  that  region  ;  for  instance, 
all  the  farmers  generally  require  advances  from  the  commission  mer¬ 
chants  in  Baltimore  and  New  York  to  make  their  crops.  The  result  is 
that  the  credit  system,  going  on  from  the  start,  keeps  up  from  year  to 
year,  and  keeps  our  people  poor.  If  we  have  a  short  crop  we  get  very 
hard-up  in  the  fall,  and  there  is  a  general  complaint  of  a  want  of  money 
among  the  people ;  but,  regardless  of  that,  I  think  the  condition  of  the 
people  is  pretty  well  in  that  section  of  country,  but  it  will  not  compare 
well  with  the  condition  of  the  same  class  of  people  in  more  prosperous 
States. 

Q.  Wrell,  now,  considering  the  black  people  as  a  general  rule  as  la¬ 
borers  without  land,  what  is  their  condition  as  a  class,  and  what  propor¬ 
tion  of  freedom  do  they  enjoy  with  the  white  laborers  ? — A.  They  are  in 
equally  as  good  a  condition.  If  the  committee  will  allow  me,  I  will  show 
how  that  thing  is.  A  great  deal  of  this  talk  about  the  negro  is  erroneous, 
because  his  condition  is  largely  a  local  matter.  Not  long  ago  we  had  a 
State  fair  in  North  Carolina  held  by  the  colored  people,  and  in  speaking 
I  followed  Governor  Jarvis,  who  made  the  opening  address,  and  I  stated 
in  that  address  that  the  prosperity  of  the  colored  people  could  not  be 
very  well  seen  at  that  fair,  wdiile  it  was  one  of  the  most  creditable  that 
had  ever  been  held,  and  was  acknowledged  to  be  such  by  the  press  of 
the  country.  I  mentioned  one  fact  in  my  own  county,  where  the  colored 
people  have  acquired  13,000  acres  of  land.  That  statement  was  doubted. 
One  of  our  papers,  the  Roanoke  News,  doubted  this  statement  of  mine, 
and  in  order  to  be  more  certain  I  went  to  the  records  of  the  county,  and 

4  EX 


50 


NEGRO  EXODUS  PROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


referred  back  a  year.  I  took  the  records  for  1878  instead  of  1871),  and 
the  record  showed  that  the  colored  people  of  that  county  had  16,001 
acres  in  fee-simple  title,  and  in  proportion  that  is  equally  true  for  the 
counties  of  Warren,  [Nash,  and  Lenoir. 

Q.  You  mean  they  have  lands  in  the  same  proportion  in  each  county? 
— A.  Yes,  sir ;  in  each  county.  I  suppose  it  would  be  no  exaggeration 
to  say  that  in  my  county,  which  is  the  next  largest  negro  county  in  the 
State — Edgecombe  is  the  largest — the  colored  people  own  there  in  fee- 
simple  title  20,000  acres  of  land. 

Q.  Which  is  your  county  ;  Edgecombe? — A.  No,  sir;  Halifax. 

Q.  And  you  found  16,601  acres  of  land  owned  by  negroes? — A.  Yes, 
sir  ;  on  the  tax  book  of  1ST 8. 

Q.  What  doyou  suppose  is  the  auiouutowned  in  Edgecombe  County  ? 
— A.  Not  so  much,  but  probably  there  are  6,000  acres  in  that  county 
owned  by  negroes,  for  the  reason  that  the  people  there  hold  their  lauds 
more  intact,  and  there  are  larger  farms  in  that  county  than  iu  ours. 

Q.  Then  I  suppose  the  white  people  are  better  off  in  your  opinion  in 
that  county  than  in  yours  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  I  will  say  that  the  colored 
people  over  there  do  not  seem  to  want  to  get  up  and  acquire  real  estate 
like  they  do  in  our  county.  The  people  over  there  like  tine  horses,  and 
I  have  known  some  colored  men  to  pay  $300  and  $500  for  a  horse  and 
buggy  in  the  fall,  but  in  our  county  1  have  always  advised  them  to  get 
a  small  home  and  pay  for  it,  no  matter  how  small  it  was. 

Q.  What  is  the  condition  of  the  laud  in  your  county  ? — A.  Our  laud 
is  just  as  good  as  any  other  in  the  State.  It  is  what  we  call  swamp 
lands  and  river  bottom. 

Q.  What  could  an  industrious  colored  man  down  there  with  a  mule 
and  so  forth  make  in  a  year  ?— A.  I  do  not  know  as  I  could  answer  that 
question  definitely.  I  will  say  this,  that  they  make  as  much  there  as 
their  white  neighbors  do,  and  I  have  been  more  surprised  to  notice  this 
fall  where  white  men  who  own  land  have  been  compelled  to  sell  every 
lock  of  cotton  to  pay  their  debts,  when  I  knew  several  instances  where 
colored  men  have  taken  their  cotton  to  market  and  brought  it  back  home 
before  they  would  sell  it. 

Q.  They  were  not  compelled  to  sell  their  cotton  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  they 
were  not  compelled  to  sell  it. 

Q.  And  they  refused  to  sell  it  at  the  prices  offered  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  be¬ 
cause  they  did  not  need  the  money. 

Q.  Will  you  explain  whatyou  know  of  the  renting  system,  and  whether 
there  is  any  disadvantage  to  the  colored  people  in  renting  land  over  the 
same  disadvantages  experienced  by  the  whites? — A.  There  can  be  no 
•disadvantage  to  the  colored  people  that  will  not  apply  to  the  whites  of 
the  same  class. 

Q.  Are  there  any  distinctions  made  by  the  landlords  in  renting  ? — A. 
None  ;  except  that  in  some  places  the  lauds  are  held  high,  and  I  attrib¬ 
ute  much  of  that  to  the  eagerness  of  parties  to  make  contracts.  There 
is  no  difference  made  by  the  law  between  white  and  colored  people;  but 
I  will  say  that  vTe  have  one  law7  in  North  Carolina  which  I  think  bears 
badly,  both  to  the  landlord  and  to  the  tenant. 

Q.  What  law'  is  that  ? — A.  The  landlord  and  tenant  act. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  explain  that  act. — A.  It  gives  the  landlord  a 
lien  not  only  for  advances  made  to  the  tenant  to  help  him  make  the 
crops  and  so  forth,  but  all  debts  thatthecropper  makes  with  him  wEether 
made  before  the  crop  or  by  mortgage  or  not. 

Q.  That  is  to  him  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  it  is  not  necessary  that  this 
shcwld  be  in  writing. 


51 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Bv  Mr.  Voorhees  : 

Q.  Does  it  allow  the  landlord  all  debts  due  from  the  cropper,  or  only 
such  as  is  assigned  to  him  in  person  ? — A.  I  have  never  seen  that  ques¬ 
tion  brought  up.  In  all  the  cases  that  I  have  seen  it  has  been  in  con¬ 
tract  matters.  The  law  operates  as  bad  on  the  whiteman  as  on  the  col¬ 
ored  man.  In  fact  I  have  been  consulted  by  white  men  as  to  this  same 
law  as  an  attorney,  and  I  think  as  to  all  its  operations  it  bears  alike  on 
white  and  colored. 

Q.  It  has  been  suggested  here  that  the  law  operates  more  harshly  on 
the  black  people  than  on  the  white. — A.  I  do  not  think  that  that  can 
be  true,  for  the  land  holders  are  in  the  minority  and  not  the  majority 
among  the  whites. 

Q.  Then  I  understand  you  that  the  laws  in  North  Carolina  are  indis¬ 
criminate  in  their  operations  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  all  of  them. 

Q.  Much  has  been  said  here  before  this  committee  about  paying  them 
up  in  orders  on  stores.  Will  you  please  tell  the  committee  something 
about  that  ? — A.  That  is  explained  by  the  system  I  spoke  of  when  I  be¬ 
gan.  A  has  land  which  he  rents  to  a  tenant;  the  tenant  desires  to  run 
his  crop  ;  he  comes  to  towu  and  must  make  a  mortgage,  either  directly 
with  the  merchant  or  indirectly  through  his  landlord,  to  have  his  sup¬ 
plies  furnished.  Of  course,  under  the  operation  of  the  law,  he  must 
have  the  word  of  his  landlord  in  order  to  get  his  supplies.  If  the  laud- 
lord  gives  him  an  order  to  the  merchant,  that  gives  him  credit,  and  that 
is  all  there  is  in  that  matter.  I  do  not  believe  in  any  of  this  talk  about 
a  percentage  between  the  merchant  and  the  landlord.  What  I  mean  is 
that  A  in  renting  his  laud  to  you  and  giving  you  an  order  on  his  mer¬ 
chant,  does  not  divide  with  him.  I  have  investigated  that  subject,  and 
I  did  not  find  that,  to  be  the  case  at  all. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  you  have  been  in  the  legislature  of  North  Caro¬ 
lina? — A.  Y"es,  sir;  I  have. 

Q.  Do  not  you  know  that  the  reason  for  that  law,  the  landlord  and 
tenant  act,  was  on  account  of  the  homestead  exemption  laws  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  I  was  going  to  state  that.  It  was  thought  that  a  man  would  take 
his  crop  and  sell  it,  and  the  landlord  would  not  get  his  rent,  and  in 
trying  to  get  out  of  that  extreme  we  got  over  into  the  other. 

Mr.  Vance.  That  is  so. 

The  Witness.  The  matter  is  being  talked  over  very  generally,  and  I 
think  the  white  people  are  complaining  the  most  about  the  operation 
of  that  act,  and  that  the  next  legislature  will  modify  it. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  It  was  an  act  of  the  last  legislature? — A.  No,  sir;  I  think  it  was 
three  legislatures  ago.  1  think  it  has  been  in  operation  from  four  to  six 
years. 

Q.  And  you  think  there  is  a  sentiment  among  both  the  whites  arid 
blacks  to  secure  its  repeal  or  a  proper  modification  of  it  ? — A.  Y>s,  sir. 


By  Senator  Vance: 

Q.  Your  home  is  in  the  second  district? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  From  which  this  emigration  mostly  takes  place  ? — A.  From  which 
it  is  said  to  take  place  principally. 

Q.  Will  you  please  give  to  the  committee  your  opinion  of  the  causes 
of  this  emigration? — A.  As  to  the  causes,  I  do  not  know  only  from  re¬ 
port.  There  is  hardly  a  day  since  this  matter  has  been  mooted,  or  these 
circulars  sent  out - 

Q.  Whatcircular? — A.  This  one  referred  to  in  the  committee.  Ireadit 


52 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


only  this  morning.  I  mean  these  pamphlets  and  circulars  by  the  Kansas 
Pacific  road.  Since  then  a  number  of  people  came  to  me  from  adjoining 
counties  and  asked  me  what  I  thought  of  it.  To  answer  them,  I  would 
always  take  the  inducements  offered  to  white  emigrants  and  contrast 
the  two.  I  said,  here  they  give  you  different  inducements.  This  pam¬ 
phlet  shows  a  difference.  Here  is  what  they  offer  white  people  to  come 
there  and  settle,  and  you  can  do  that  well  in  North  Carolina,  and  it  is 
not  necessary  to  go  out  there  to  better  yourself.  They  tell  me  they 
have  been  offered — I  have  never  been  able  to  locate  who  offered  it,  but 
they  tell  me  some  colored  men  have  done  it — that  they  would  get  a  dol¬ 
lar  a  day  in  Indiana,  and  get  a  suit  of  clothes  in  Washington.  They 
have  often  told  me  that  was  the  inducement  held  out  to  them,  as  com¬ 
ing  from  the  government,  and  when  1  told  them  the  government  had  no 
hand  in  the  matter  it  would  drop,  and  I  would  hear  no  more  about  it. 
We  have  in  our  immediate  section  had  none  of  it,  unless  it  has  taken 
place  since  I  left,  and  during  the  last  two  or  three  days.  I  will  state 
that, until  recently,  emigration  meetings  were  advertised,  in  which  it  was 
stated  that  I  would  be  present  to  make  speeches.  I  knew  nothing  of  it, 
and  parties  would  say  to  me,  UI  went  to  so  and  so  to  hear  you  speak. 
Notice  was  brought  that  you  were  going  to  speak,  and  why  were  you 
not  there?”  and  I  would  tell  them  that  I  knew  nothing  about  it.  This 
movement  in  my  State  has  nothing  spontaneous  about  it,  but  is  induced 
by  a  class  of  persons  who  come  and  tell  the  people  they  will  get  better 
wages  by  going  to  Indiana,  and  that  when  they  get  there  they  will  be  well 
taken  care  of.  ‘  So  far  as  there  is  a  political  phase  to  it,  I  know  nothing. 
When  I  reached  Washington  I  was  informed  that  there  was  an  emigra¬ 
tion  aid  society  here,  and  they  said  that  it  was  formed  to  aid  these  colored 
people  who  had  been  sent  from  Mississippi  and  Louisiana  to  Saint 
Louis.  There  was  one  gentleman  connected  with  it  when  it  was  organ¬ 
ized,  who  was  a  vice-president,  who  stated  that  Mr.  Mendenhall,  who  is 
a  clerk  in  one  of  the  departments,  stated  at  the  meeting  that  it  would  be 
a  good  idea  to  take  the  negroes  from  North  Carolina  and  send  them  to 
Indiana,  as  North  Carolina  was  au  accessible  State  from  this  point.  He 
knowing  this,  and  being  a  North  Carolinian  himself,  severed  his  connec¬ 
tion  with  the  society,  and  that  was  at  the  first  or  second  meeting. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  that  since  you  came  here  you  learned  that? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  wish  you  to  state  if  drawing  out  of  their  intercourse  with  the 
Army  of  the  Union  and  their  subsequent  connection  and  education  in 
the  Republican  party,  the  negroes  of  the  South  are  not  more  ready  to 
listen  to  people  coming  among  them  with  philanthropic  pretenses  from 
the  North  than  to  their  own  people  at  home? — A.  I  judge  so,  as  the  ne¬ 
gro  is  of  a  very  sympathetic  nature,  and  will  give  credence  to  those 
who  profess  friendship  before  he  will  to  others.  He  is  very  credulous, 
and,  even  though  deceived  from  time  to  time,  will  still  take  to  a  man 
who  tells  him  a  good  story.  That  is  the  reason  why  I  have  taken  par¬ 
ticular  pains  to  look  after  these  people  in  the  counties  where  I  practice. 

Q.  State  in  your  own  way  to  the  committee  if  in  your  opinion  this 
exodus  is  caused  by  any  principles  of  persecution,  political  or  other¬ 
wise. — A.  It  could  not  be,  as  we  have  known  all  that  sort  of  thing  in 
that  section  of  the  country.  I  did  think,  at  one  time,  in  the  counties 
bordering  on  South  Carolina,  and  not  colored  but  white  counties,  that 
there  was  a  little  bulldozing  done  there,  but  I  thought  it  was  princi¬ 
pally  by  people  from  South  Carolina.  But  in  the  negro  belt  I  think 
there  is  nothing  of  the  kind.  In  our  counties,  I  think,  as  a  rule,  we 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  53 

have  bad  all  oar  own  officers  until  recently  the  election  of  county  com¬ 
missioners  was  taken  away  from  us. 

Q.  You  mean  under  the  recent  amended  constitution  ? — 4.  lres,  sir  ; 
and  I  will  state  for  Governor  Vance  that  in  bis  message,  for  wbicb  be 
received  tbe  condemnation  of  some  hot-headed  men  of  bis  party,  be 
asked  tbe  legislature  not  to  interfere  with  tbe  suffrage  of  tbe  people  in 
any  way,  and  for  that  some  of  them  said  they  would  go  back  on  him  in 
tbe  Senatorial  contest,  and  in  consequence  of  it  be  was  a  little  unpopu¬ 
lar  for  a  time. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  tbe  asperities  and  barsb  feelings  between  tbe  two 
races  have  not  been  disappearing  notably  since  1870,  and  gradually 
giving  away  to  a  better  feeling  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  of  any  State  in  tbe 
American  Union  where  there  is  a  better  feeling  between  the  white  and 
tbe  colored  people  than  in  North  Carolina.  It  is  a  very  usual  thing  to 
see  on  tbe  day  of  election  tbe  landlord  and  tbe  tenant,  tbe  employer 
and  the  employe,  going  to  town  in  tbe  same  buggy  and  voting  different 
ways.  I  have  even  wondered  why  it  was  that  the  employer  could  in¬ 
fluence  bis  tenant  or  employe  on  every  other  subject  except  voting.  I 
think  I  ought  to  say  with  regard  to  Captain  Wall’s  testimony,  as  It  will 
all  come  before  tbe  House  in  due  time,  that  in  my  defeat,  or  rather  my 
being  counted  out,  tbe  Republicans  bad  more  to  do  with  it  than  tbe 
Democrats,  and  I  say  that  the  colored  Republicans  of  tbe  South  have 
more  to  fear  from  tbe  white  Republicans  than  from  tbe  Democrats. 
And  there  is  always  a  combination  between  tbe  white  Republicans 
against  any  intelligent  colored  Republican  who  seeks  to  aspire  to  office. 

Q.  You  mean  that  they  want  to  keep  all  tbe  offices? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
and  when  we  say  to  them  that  they  must  divide,  they  say,  bold  on  ;  and 
when  we  fight  them  they  count  us  out.  Now,  in  my  own  county  tbe 
Republicans  bad  tbe  appointment  of  commissioners,  and  because  I  op¬ 
posed  a  certain  white  man  who  ran  for  sheriff  bis  friends  made  a  com¬ 
bination  and  counted  me  out.  That  was  tbe  reason  why  Mr.  Kitchen 
went  on  bis  bond,  and  tbe  result  was  to  give  us  a  Democratic  sheriff  on 
the  Republican  ticket  and  to  count  me  out  in  consequence  of  this  com¬ 
bination. 

Q.  You  are  a  man  of  intelligence  and  reading  and  have  information 
outside  of  your  own  locality,  and  I  wish  you  to  state  what  is  tbe  condi¬ 
tion  of  tbe  colored  man  as  a  laborer  and  with  reference  to  some  classes 
of  laborers  that  are  not,  that  is  to  say,  unskilled  laborers  in  tbe  United 
States  ? — A.  It  is  a  good  condition ;  in  fact  they  are  in  a  better  condition 
in  North  Carolina  than  in  any  other  State  in  tbe  Union,  from  tbe  fact 
for  tbe  next  ten  years  at  least  they  will  not  be  thrown  into  contact  with 
tbe  Irish  and  German  laborers,  and  will  not  have  competition  with  that 
character  of  labor.  A  tendency  with  the  white  people  generally  is, when 
they  require  money  to  live  and  farm,  to  go  to  the  towns  and  cities,  not 
that  there  is  no  contest  or  antagonism  between  tbe  white  and  colored 
people,  but  because  tbe  white  man  prefers  to  live  off  of  tbe  farm. 

Q.  Then  you  think  there  will  be  no  trouble  and  ought  not  to  be  with 
the  negro  laborers  in  tbe  South  until  that  class  of  white  labor  comes? — 
A.  lres,  sir ;  but  I  think  it  will  not  come,  at  least  to  that  section,  as  that 
laud  is  affected  with  miasma,  and  tbe  white  people  are  subject  to  it 
while  tbe  negro  is  not. 

Q.  What  kind  of  land  is  it  ? — A.  It  is  our  very  best  laud  in  North 
Carolina,  that  properly  drained,  and  it  is  desirable  for  them  to  own  that 
land  and  cultivate  it,  because  of  tbe  impoverished  condition  generally 
of  the  colored  men  of  tbe  State,  and  I  know  men  there  who  have  land 
wbicb  cost  them  $10  an  acre,  and  yet  colored  men  have  taken  it  out  at 


54 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


$5  an  acre.  The  way  the  colored  man  treats  his  land  is  this:  he  will  bay 
it,  and  the  first  year  he  will  cut  down  a  few  trees  and  make  a  small 
crop;  the  next  year  he  will  cut  down  more  trees,  dig  a  little  ditch,  and 
go  on  this  way  for  four  or  five  years  ;  afterwards,  when  you  would  know 
liow  the  property  is  which  he  has  taken,  he  cannot  tell  you  himself  how 
he  happens  to  bring  the  land  up,  but  at  any  rate  he  has  done  so,  and  it 
cost  him  nothing  except  his  labor,  and  so  they  prosper  notwithstanding 
that  wages  are  frequently  low ;  they  were  last  year,  because  the  cotton 
crop  was  bad  and  short. 

Q.  And  we  had  very  destructive  floods? — A.  Yes,  sir,  very;  and 
last  year  we  had  droughts  also,  so  that  the  crops  were  very  short,  and 
that  caused  labor  to  be  very  low;  and,  because  of  the  feeling  that  exists 
between  the  people  in  that  State,  I  will  relate  this,  that  a  few  Satur¬ 
days  ago  the  people  living  in  that  section  of  the  county  called  Scotland 
Neck  held  an  agricultural  meeting.  White  people  and  black  people 
met  together  and  had  a  talk  about  this  subject.  Richard  H.  Smith,  a 
white  man  and  leader  there,  spoke,  and  I  spoke  too,  and  the  result  of 
the  meeting  was  that  they  thought  on  account  of  the  increase  of  the 
price  of  cotton  they  ought  to  increase  the  wages  of  the  hands,  and 
they  did  so.  As  another  remarkable  fact  connected  with  this,  I  will 
state  that  there  are  some  colored  people  who  hire  laborers  in  that  sec¬ 
tion  and  are  interested  in  the  price  of  labor.  These  whites  they  have 
property,  and  have  to  have  labor  to  assist  them  in  cultivating  it,  and 
naturally  they  want  the  labor  cheap. 

Q.  State  the  condition  of  the  education  for  children  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina  ? — A.  The  condition  of  the  children  in  North  Carolina  according  to 
our  system  at  present  is  poor.  I  mean  poor  as  to  all  classes  ;  in  our  law 
there  can  be  no  discrimination.  Eight  and  one-third  per  cent,  of  the 
property-tax  and  seventy-five  percent,  of  the  poll-tax,  I  think,  is  used 
for  school  purposes,  each  class  getting  its  pro  rata  share,  and  if  it  had  not 
been  for  some  oversight  in  the  last  legislation,  an  omission  to  sign  the 
bill,  I  think  we  would  have  had  a  very  good  system  of  public  schools  in 
the  State.  Of  course  education  is  not  therefor  the  poor  classes  as  it  is  in 
the  District  of  Columbia,  where  you  have  large  taxes  and  have  a  Federal 
Government  to  supply  it,  and  in  large  cities  like  New  York,  but  I  think 
it  will  compare  favorable  with  that  in  any  rural  district  in  any  section 
of  the  country.  I  read  the  report  of  the  Commissioner  of  Education  and 
see  that  the  schools  in  the  interior  of  nearly  all  the  States  in  the  rural 
districts  are  as  nothing  compared  with  the  schools  in  the  towns  and 
cities,  and  I  think  ours  will  compare  about  as  favorably  as  any.  We 
need,  however,  a  great  deal  of  improvement  yet,  and  I  think  it  will  come 
gradually. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  the  last  report  of  the  superintendent  of  education  ? 
— A.  1  have  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  the  number  of  children  attending  school  in 
North  Carolina  is  increasing  from  year  to  year? — A.  Yres,  sir;  I  know 
they  are  increasing  from  year  to  year.  I  think,  however,  we  have  made 
one  mistake.  I  think  we  have  made  a  sad  mistake  in  the  employing 
of  cheap  teachers.  Our  people  seem  to  have  got  the  idea  into  their 
heads  that  $20  a  month  is  paying  enough  for  a  teacher,  and  the  result 
is  you  cannot  get  first-class  teachers.  First-class  teachers  will  not  work 
for  such  a  price  as  that;  but  wherever  they  offer  $20  for  teachers,  they 
pay  the  same  to  white  teachers  and  black  teachers  alike.  I  know  a  case 
in  point :  My  wife  holds  a  first-class  certificate ;  she  receives  $20  a 
mouth,  and  teaches  a  colored  school.  The  daughter  of  Col.  David  C. 
Clark,  one  of  the  leading  white  gentlemen  of  the  city,  also  holds  a  first- 
class  certificate;  and  she  teaches  a  white  school  at  $20  a  mouth. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


55 


By  Mr.  Vance  : 

Q.  This  is  done  in  order  to  make  the  money  spread  over  as  much  time 
as  possible? — A.  Yes,  sir;  bat  there  is  another  result.  The  best  teachers 
will  not  remain  in  such  places,  but  will  go  where  they  can  be  better 
paid.  Only  the  poorer  class  of  teachers  and  persons  living  there,  who 
are  not  compelled  to  rely  on  their  teaching  for  a  support — only  persons 
so  situated  will  teach. 

Q.  Has  not  your  State  appropriated  money  for  the  establishment  of  a 
normal  school  for  the  education  of  teachers? — A.  We  had  a  normal 
school  at  one  time.  It  was  at  first  only  temporary,  but  I  think  our  leg¬ 
islature  has  made  it  permanent.  As  we  advance  and  get  a  little  more 
money  we  will  have  more  schools  of  all  kinds. 

Q.  Has  not  the  State  also  provided  asylums  for  the  unfortunate  of 
your  race? — A.  Yes,  sir;  the  same  facilities  are  offered  the  black  and 
white  alike  in  that  respect.  We  have  a  deaf  and  dumb  school  for 
the  colored  people,  under  the  same  rules  and  government  as  that  for 
white  people;  they  are  taught,  fed,  and  clothed  under  the  same  system 
as  the  whites.  In  fact,  it  is  not  very  long  ago  since  I  went  through  both 
institutions — the  one  on  one  side  of  our  city,  the  other  on  the  other. 
They  have  the  same  kind  of  provision,  meats,  vegetables,  and  fruits; 
the  same  bedding  and  furniture,  carpets,  pianos,  &c.,  all  the  same  in 
both  institutions,  without  any  discrimination  at  all. 

Q.  What  provision  has  been  made  for  the  insane? — A.  Owing  to  the 
crowded  condition  of  our  present  insane  asylum,  it  has  been  found  nec¬ 
essary  to  build  two  others;  one  for  the  whites  at  Morgantown,  and  one 
at  Greensboro7,  in  what  is  called  the  u  negro  belt,”  exclusively  for  colored 
people— an  institution  that  will  compare  favorably  with  institutions  of 
the  same  kind  in  any  part  of  that  country;  as  good  as  the  one  they  are 
building  for  the  whites  at  Morgantown. 

Q.  It  is  not  as  large? — A.  No,  it  is  not  as  large  ;  it  is  not  necessary 
that  it  should  be  as  large,  because  our  percentage  of  insane  is  not  as 
large  as  it  is  among  whites;  and  the  negro  population  is  only  one-third 
that  of  the  whites. 

Q.  State,  if  you  know,  what  is  the  character,  as  a  general  rule,  of  the 
men  who  are  leaving  your  State  ? — A,.  As  I  said  before,  I  cannot  find 
that  any  of  the  colored  men  who  have  any  great  desire  to  acquire  a 
home  are  leaving. 

Q.  Are  your  most  industrious  colored  men  leaving  there  ? — A.  Not 
that  I  can  discover  ;  so  far  as  I  can  learn,  it  is  just  the  floating  population 
that  are  leaving.  In  the  interior,  in  the  county  of  Greene,  I  do  not  know 
how  it  is  about  this  class  of*  people  ;  but  I  think  that  in  the  other  coun¬ 
ties  it  is  just  the  floating  class  who  are  leaving. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  are  leaving  from  a  voluntary  desire  to  leave,  or 
because  efforts  are  being  made  and  inducements  held  out  for  them  to 
leave  ? — A.  I  think  that  if  they  were  let  alone  they  would  remain  there  ; 
I  do  not  think  that  they  are  leaving  for  the  same  cause  that  people  leave 
Germany,  Ireland,  Scotland,  England,  &c. ;  I  do  not  think  they  would 
leave  but  for  the  agents  that  are  going  around  through  the  country 
making  glowing  representations  and  distributing  highly-wrought  de¬ 
scriptive  circulars,  telling  how  easily  houses  and  lands  can  be  obtained 
in  the  North.  Of  course  the  laborers,  after  reading  these  pamphlets  show¬ 
ing  what  can  be  done,  and  how  cheaply  they  can  get  to  these  places, 
and  what  provision  will  be  made  for  them  after  they  reach  there,  will 
go;  but  they  do  not  leave  from  a  voluntary  desire  to  leave  at  all. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  migration  of  colored  people  at  all  outside  of 
your. district  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  of  my  own  knowledge  ;  l  have  heard, 


56 


NEGIiO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


however,  that  some  were  leaving  the  county  of  Nash — that  is  outside  of 
my  district ;  it  is  the  adjoining  county  to  me  5  only  the  railroad  divides 
it  from  the  county  of  Edgecombe.  A  person  not  knowing  just  how  our 
districts  are  divided  might  think  it  was  in  my  district,  but  it  is  in  the 
Raleigh  district — the  fourth  district.  I  hear  that  along  the  line  of  the 
railway  a  few  have  left  from  Duplin  and  Sampson  Counties  ;  they  are 
in  the  third  district.  The  bulk  of  the  migration  has  been  from  the  coun¬ 
ties  of  Lenoir,  Jones,  Craven,  and  Greene,  which  are  in  my  district. 
There  has  also  been  some  from  the  county  of  Wayne. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  migration  from  that  region  to  Florida1? — A.  I 
have  seen  something  about  that  in  the  newspapers,  and  I  think  I  can 
explain  to  you  how  that  is.  It  has  been  for  years — for  ten  years  to  my 
own  knowledge — the  fact  that  in  the  spring  of  the  year  three  or  four 
hundred  colored  men  would  go  down  to  what  is  called  the  turpentine 
country  ;  they  go  down  every  spring  and  return  every  fall.  They  go 
down  there  to  work,  leaving  their  families  in  North  Carolina.  They 
have  gone  again  this  year,  as  has  been  a  yearly  occurrence  for  eight  or  ten 
years  past.  I  do  not  know  of  any  emigration  from  North  Carolina  to 
Florida  outside  of  that.  Before  I  left  home  I  saw  two  car-loads  of  these 
colored  people  passing  through  my  place  going  to  the  turpentine 
country. 

Q.  You  said  a  while  ago  that  there  were  20,000  acres  of  land  in  your 
county  owned  by  colored  people;  please  state  among  how  many  or 
about  how  many  persons  this  land  is  divided ;  is  it  distributed  among  a 
pretty  large  number  of  small  holders,  or  in  what  way? — A.  I  avoided 
taking  into  consideration  the  small  lots — half-acre  lots,  &c.  The  farms 
will  run  from  20  or  25  acres  up  to  300  or  400.  There  is  one  thing  pecu¬ 
liar  about  this  matter ;  when  a  colored  man  possesses  land  you  cannot 
get  him  after  he  has  paid  for  it  to  mortgage  it;  he  will  mortgage  any¬ 
thing  else  in  the  world  ;  he  will  cling  to  it  under  all  circumstances. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  They  are  anxious  to  retain  the  advantage  of  the  homestead  ? — A. 
A  Great  many  of  them  are  beyond  the  homestead  law.  Just  a  few  days 
before  I  left  home  a  couple  of  fellows  came  to  me,  who  were  trying  to 
protect  their  homesteads.  1  told  them  that  they  wrould  have  to  pay  up, 
for  they  had  more  than  the  homestead  law  allowed  them. 

Q.  You  have  spoken  mostly  of  your  district  or  section  of  country  ; 
what  knowledge  have  you  of  the  condition  of  the  colored  men  in  other 
parts  of  the  State,  relative  to  holding  property  ? — A.  I  have  pretty  much 
the  same  knowledge ;  I  have  traveled  through  the  State  considerably, 
and  have  had  communication  with  white  and  colored  people  in  all  parts 
of  the  State  ;  I  have  conversed  as  freely  with  Republicans  as  with  Dem¬ 
ocrats,  and  have  bad  the  same  facilities  as  anybody,  regardless  of  any 
race  prejudice ;  I  hud  that  they  make  no  distinction  at  all.  I  have  the 
same  information  from  all  over  the  State  as  from  that  particular  locality; 
I  know  that  what  I  have  said  about  my  own  district  will  hold  good  pretty 
much  the  whole  State  over. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Where  were  you  born  ? — A.  In  New  York. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  the  South  ? — A.  Since  about  18(12  ;  I 
■went  to  North  Carolina  in  the  fall  of  1802,  when  I  was  about  eighteen 
years  old. 

Q.  Did  you  come  there  in  the  service  ? — A.  No,  sir,  merely  on  a  pleas¬ 
ure  trip,  with  some  “missionaries”  that  came  from  New  York.  After 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


57 


reaching  North  Carolina  I  engaged  in  teaching  school ;  I  liked  the  place 
very  well,  and  so  remained  there,  and  have  been  there  ever  since.  All 
I  have  got,  and  all  the  associations  I  have,  are  there.  I  now  consider 
it  my  home,  and  have  for  seventeen  years. 

Q.  Do  you  feel  that  you  have  suffered  in  your  association  with  the 
wdiite  people,  on  account  of  any  race  prejudice? — A.  Well,  no  more  than 
the  prejudice  growing  out  of  the  peculiar  institution  of  the  government 
as  to  the  two  classes  of  people :  no  more  than  J  probably  would  have 
suffered  anywhere  else.  There  is,  of  course,  a  feeling  of  prejudice,  such 
as  one  would  naturally  feel  and  expect. 

Q.  Would  you  not  encounter  that  in  New  York  ? — A.  I  would  en¬ 
counter  it  in  New  York  more  than  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  Are  the  colored  people  in  North  Carolina  excluded  from  places  of 
public  amusement,  for  instance  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  because  we  have 
very  few  places  of  public  amusement  in  North  Carolina;  we  have  no 
theaters  in  my  vicinity ;  I  know  this,  that  colored  people  do  go  to  thea¬ 
ters ;  I- have  gone  to  theaters  in  Italeigh,  frequently;  and  L  have  seen 
no  exclusion  on  account  of  color.  I  suppose  if  a  colored  man  should 
attempt  to  take  a  principal  seat  in  a  theater  in  North  Carolina  he  would 
have  the  same  difficulty  as  in  New  York. 

Q.  The  reason  I  speak  of  it  is  because  I  see  by  the  papers  that  a  col¬ 
ored  man  in  New  York  has  brought  suit  for  being  excluded  from  a  thea¬ 
ter? — A.  So  far  as  my  experience  and  observation  goes,  a  colored  man 
suffers  from  such  things  no  more  in  North  Carolina  than  anywhere  else. 
These  are  matters  that  are,  and  must  be,  regulated  purely  by  prejudice 
and  feeling,  and  that  the  law  cannot  regulate ;  I  think  it  is  not  the  prov¬ 
ince  of  the  law  to  interfere. 

Q.  Are  you  a  planter  yourself? — A.  No,  sir;  I  practice  law. 

Q.  The  two  things  go  together  in  the  South  sometimes  ? — A.  My  ex¬ 
perience  is  that  when  a  lawyer  attempts  to  farm,  it  take  his  law  prac¬ 
tice  to  run  his  farm. 

Q.  You  are  a  practicing  lawyer  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  gain  your  living  by  that  profession  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  flud  the  question  of  race  any  obstacle  to  your  receiving 
fair  treatment  in  the  courts  ? — A.  No,  sir,  none  whatever;  I  would  not 
tolerate  any,  and  I  see  no  disposition  to  show  any ;  the  law  gives  me 
the  same  privileges  as  it  does  any  member  of  the  bar. 

Q.  And  that  is  freely  accorded  ? — A.  Yres,  sir  ;  I  could  give  an  illus¬ 
tration  ;  once  I  had  the  misfortune  to  fly  off  the  handle  with  a  brother 


practitioner,  and  both  of  us  were  placed  in  contempt;  and  every  mem¬ 
ber  of  the  bar  said  as  much  in  my  favor  as  in  favor  of  the  other  party. 

Q.  I  think  it  may  be  just  to  state  in  this  connection  that  one  of  the 
things  which  some  of  tiie  people  complain  of,  one  of  the  reasons  which 
causes  your  colored  people  to  leave,  is  that  they  are  not  placed  on  ju¬ 
ries  ? — A.  That  may  be  so  in  a  few  counties;  but  as  a  rule  it  is  not  so. 
No  such  distinction  can  be  made  under  the  law,  because  our  law  requires 
that  the  commissioners  shall,  at  certain  times,  draw  from  the  jury  box 
the  names  of  persons  of  good  moral  character,  without  distinction  of 
color,  to  serve  as  jurors. 

Q.  Is  it  not  the  rule,  in  all  States  and  countries,  so  far  as  you  know, 
that  it  is  the  better  class  of  persons  who  are  selected  to  go  on  juries  ? — 
A.  Generally  so.  As  a  rule,  persons  who  have  the  most  at  stake  in  a 
community,  the  most  responsible  persons,  are  selected  as  jurors. 

Q.  1  understood  you  to  say  that  that  class  of  people  are  not  emigrat¬ 
ing  from  your  State? — A.  No,  sir;  they  are  not  emigrating  at  all.  ^ 


58 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


will  not  go  so  far  as  that  :  there  may  be  some  such,  but  they  have  not 
fallen  under  my  observation. 

Q.  Have  you  any  observation  of  the  facility  with  which  a  colored  man 
would  get  on  to  a  jury  in  Indiana? — A.  I  do  not  know  anything  at  all 
about  that ;  but  I  can  tell  you  what  I  have  found — I  am  not  speaking 
of  the  practical  part  of  the  thing,  whatever  the  theory  may  be — but  in 
nine  cases  out  of  ten,  if  a  colored  man  is  put  on  trial,  he  don’t  care  about 
having  negroes  on  the  jury  if  he  can  get  rid  of  it.  I  do  not  know  what 
theories  these  gentlemen  may  draw  from  it,  but  I  find  this  to  be  the 
fact. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  What  objection  have  the  colored  men  to  having  other  colored  men 
on  the  jury? — A.  They  feel  that  they  are  more  easily  swayed ;  if  they 
can  get  a  white  man  on  the  jury  who  is  friendly  to  them,  they  know  that 
it  will  take  a  great  deal  more  evidence  to  sway  him  than  it  would  a 
colored  man.  They  think  that  a  colored  man  is  not  tenacious  enough 
in  holding  on  to  a  previous  opinion.  When  arguments  are  presented, 
or  appeals  to  his  feelings,  or  in  case  of  a  tie,  he  is  more  easy  to  give 
over. 

Q.  Then  they  are  rather  prejudiced  against  their  own  race  for 
jurors? — A.  As  a  rule,  I  should  say  they  are,  in  the  circuit  in  which  I 
practice. 

Q.  Is  it  to  accommodate  that  prejudice  that  they  are  not  allowed  on 
juries  so  frequently  as  white  men  ? — A.  You  misunderstand  me,  Sena¬ 
tor;  I  did  not  say  they  were  not  “allowed”  on  juries  so  frequently  as 
white  men  ;  under  the  law  there  is  no  distinction. 

Q.  Well,  then,  in  practice  how  is  it? — A.  In  practice  a  distinction  is 
made. 

Q.  lrou  have  a  majority  of  colored  men  in  your  county? — A.  We 
have. 

Q.  Do  you  have  a  majority  of  colored  men  on  your  juries  there? — A. 
I  do  not  know  that  we  have  ;  that  comes  a  good  deal  as  it  may  happen. 
I  have  seen,  in  a  case  where  all  the  litigants  were  white,  nine  colored 
men  on  the  jury! 

Q.  Do  whites  like  to  have  colored  men  on  the  jury  when  their  cases 
are  on  trial  ? — A.  Well,  as  to  that  I  really  do  not  know  ;  if  be  can  get 
one  of  his  own  employes  on  a  jury,  he  would  rather  have  him  than  a 
white  man. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  colored  men  are  generally  on  the  juries  there? 
— A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  What  would  be  your  judgment? — A.  Generally,  I  should  say, 
about  one  third  or  one-half;  somewhere  along  there.  I  know  this,  the 
law  is,  so  far  as  the  grand  jury  is  concerned,  no  true  bill  can  be  found 
without  the  consent  of  a  colored  man  ;  that  is,  there  must  be  at  least 
one  colored  man  on  the  grand  jury  who  conseuts  to  the  finding  of  the 
bill.  I  have  never  known  a  grand  jury  in  my  own  county,  or  Edge¬ 
combe,  or  Warren,  to  consist  of  twelve  white  men — no  grand  jury  of 
eighteen . 

Q.  What  is  the  proportion  of  colored  men  to  white  men  in  your 
county? — A.  About  two  and  a  half  to  one. 

Q.  And  they  constitute  from  one-third  to  one-half  the  jury  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  are  they  appointed ? — A.  By  drawing  out  of  a  jury-box:  in 
making  out  the  jury  list  they  place  in  the  box  only  the  names  of  such 
persons  as  have  paid  their  taxes  the  preceding  year. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


59 


Q.  Then  there  is  a  tax-law  that  serves  to  reduce  the  proportion  of  col¬ 
ored  men  on  the  jury? — A.  I  don’t  know  that  it  affects  them  any  more 
than  it  does  the  whites. 

Q.  Then  why  do  you  give  that  as  a  reason  why,  in  a  county  where 
there  are  two  and  a  half  colored  men  to  one  white  man,  there  are  but 
from  one-third  to  one-half  colored  men  on  the  jury? — A.  I  did  not  give 
that  as  a  reason  ;  I  merel}"  mentioned  it  as  a  fact. 

Q.  You  are  giving  it  as  one  of  the  reasons,  are  you  not  ? — A.  Xo,  sir. 

Q.  Then  what  is  the  reason? — A.  I  will  say  this:  If  I  had  no  preju¬ 
dice,  and  if  I  should  draw  the  jury  out  of  all  the  names  in  the  box  in 
precisely  the  same  way,  the  jury  would  be  apt  to  consist  of  more  white 
men  than  colored  men.  Take  a  child,  and  let  him  draw  from  the  box; 
A’s  name  is  drawn,  for  instance ;  the  question  is  now  asked,  not  whether 
he  is  a  white  man  or  a  black  man,  but  is  he  competent  for  a  juryman? 
Is  he  a  man  of  good  moral  character?  There  is  this  fact  to  be  taken 
into  consideration  :  owing  to  the  ignorance  of  the  colored  men  generally, 
you  will  have  to  pick  over  a  larger  number  of  names  of  colored  men 
than  you  will  of  white  men  to  find  persons  with  the  requisite  moral 
character  for  jurors. 

Q.  Then  the  tax-law  has  nothing  to  do  with  it  ? — A.  It  can  not  have, 
for  it  applies  to  black  and  white  alike. 

Q.  Is  not  a  larger  proportion  of  the  whites  than  of  the  blacks  able  to 
pay  taxes  ? — A.  Xo,  sir. 

Q.  Do  not  the  whites  own  more  property  than  the  blacks? — A.  That 
may  be.  I  think  they  do. 

Q.  Then  are  not  the  whites  better  able  to  pay  taxes  than  the. colored 
people  are  ? — A.  Xo,  sir. 

Q.  Why  not?  I  should  like  to  have  you  explain  that. — A.  Because, 
owing  to  our  peculiar  system  of  agriculture,  we  are  all  pretty  poor;  so 
when  the  tax-gatherer  comes  along  one  is  about  as  able  to  pay  as  the 
other. 

Mr.  Vance.  In  proportion  to  the  amount  of  the  tax  in  each  case  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  I  thought  that  was  taken  into  consideration. 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  How  is  it  in  the  other  counties  of  the  State  ? — A.  I  speak  only  of 
the  counties  I  have  been  over. 

Q.  You  say  there  is  a  poll-tax,  of  which  75  per  cent,  goes  to  the  sup¬ 
port  of  the  schools  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  the  rest  to  the  poor. 

Q.  Is  there  any  other  tax  for  schools? — A.  Yes,  sir;  8^  per  cent,  on 
all  property.  Under  our  constitution,  our  taxes  are  limited,  for  all  pur¬ 
poses,  to  an  amount  not  exceeding  G6§  cents  on  $100. 

Q.  You  have  separate  schools  for  white  and  black  ? — A.  Y^es,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  schools  for  both  ? — A.  Xo,  sir. 

Q.  During  what  proportion  of  time  in  each  year  are  the  schools  now 
kept? — A.  About  four  months  in  the  year  ;  sometimes  longer.  The  law 
provides  also  that  when  there  is  not  money  enough  to  support  the 
schools  for  lour  months  in  the  year,  a  tax  shall  be  levied  to  support 
them;  but  it  requires  that  first  the  levying  of  such  tax  shall  be  put  to  a 
vote  of  the  voters  of  the  township;  so  if  there  is  not  lour  months 
school  in  any  township  it  is  because  the  voters  do  not  tax  themselves. 

Q.  Is  that  tax  on  property? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  purely  a  property  tax. 

Q.  You  said  that  the  colored  men  had  more  to  fear  from  white  Bepub- 
lcans  than  from  white  Democrats ;  Avhat  did  you  mean  by  that ! — A. 
I  said,  u  intelligent  colored  men”;  men  who  desire  to  hold  office  and 
to  become  popular,  have  more  to  fear  from  white  Kepublicaus  than  from 


60 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


white  Democrats.  For  if  you  attempt  to  interfere  and  get  ahead,  these 
white  Republicans  will  say:  “  Hold  on!  you  will  prejudice  us;  that 
won’t  do!”  It  is  the  same  way,  I  presume  here  in  Washington  ;  if  you 
want  a  negro  appointed  to  any  position  there  is  a  great  deal  of  diffi¬ 
culty;  if  it  is  a  white  man  you  want  appointed,  you  can  get  him  without 
any  great  opposition. 

Q.  What  is  the  proportion  of  colored  and  white  population  in  the 
State  of  North  Carolina? — A.  I  should  say,  about  one-third  black  to 
two-thirds  white;  we  reason  it  out  in  that  way,  on  general  principles. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  Republicans  there  are  white  ? — A.  About 
one-third. 

Q.  You  mean  the  white  Republicans  cast  about  one-tliird  the  party 
vote? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  what  I  mean  ;  that  would  be  the  maximum. 

Q.  And  what  you  mean  by  the  colored  men  having  more  to  fear  from 
the  white  Republicans  than  from  the  Democrats  is,  that  the  white  one- 
third  of  the  Republican  party  will  demand  too  many  of  the  offices,  and 
give  trouble,  and  split  the  party  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  will  form  any  kind 
of  combination  that  may  be  necessary. 

Q.  You  mean  with  Democrats? — A.  Yes,  sir,  or  with  Republicans. 

Q.  YY>u  have  nothing  to  fear  in  the  way  of  persecution  from  the  white 
Republicans? — A.  O,  no,  sir. 

Q.  You  refer  only  to  the  internal  management  of  the  party  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  we  have  no  fear  of  any  persecution. 

Q.  Was  your  competitor — your  Republican  competitor,  I  mean — white 
or  black? — A.  There  were  two  of  them  ;  one  was  colored  and  one  was 
white. 

Q.  How  was  the  vote  divided  between  you  and  the  other  Republican 
candidates? — A.  I  don’t  know  how  much  Mr.  Thorne’s  vote  was;  Mr. 
Harris’s  was  only  about  3,000. 

Q.  What  was  the  Democratic  vote  ? — A.  Captain  Hitehin’s  majority 
over  me  was  1,022,  I  believe,  as  counted. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  colored  people  “  bulldozing”  each 
other  in  North  Carolina? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  know  anything  of  that 
kind. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  laws  of  that  State  do  not  discriminate,  as  between 
the  colored  and  the  white? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  discrimination  in  the  execution  of  those  laws  ? — A. 
None  that  I  know  of.  There  is  this,  however:  the  same  discrimination 
is  used  there  that  is  used  everywhere;  for  instance,  in  the  courts,  it  is 
well  known  that  a  poor  man,  or  an  ignorant  man,  in  any  community,  is 
at  a  disadvantage.  For  instance,  if  he  brings  a  suit  he  may  be  unable 
to  give  bonds  or  to  employ  the  best  legal  talent;  he  is  under  some  dis¬ 
advantages — necessarily  so — from  these  peculiar  circumstances.  That 
is  about  the  only  inconvenience  that  colored  men  suffer  from  in  North 
Carolina ;  and  that  is  applicable  to  poor  men  and  ignorant  men  the 
country  over. 

Q.  There  is  no  discrimination  in  the  execution  of  the  laws,  either  in 
regard  to  serving  on  juries  or  in  the  securing  of  rights  in  the  courts  ? — A. 
None  whatever. 

Q.  Are  white  men  punished  for  crimes  against  colored  men  the  same 
as  colored  men  are  for  crimes  against  white  men? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  am  trying  to  find  the  paradise  for  the  negro,  and  I  think  I  have 
found  it  at  last.  There  is  no  race  prejudice  at  all  down  there? — A. 
There  is  the  same  race  prejudice  that  there  is  between  white  men  and 
colored  men  everywhere,  but  to  a  less  extent  than  in  some  Northern 
States. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN.  STATES. 


61 


Q.  How  is  it  shown  to  a  less  extent  than  in  the  Northern  States  ? — 
A.  In  a  social  point  of  view.  For  instance,  in  the  North  you  will  seldom 
see  a  white  man  and  a  colored  man  eating  together  5  in  the  South  it  is 
nothing  unusual  to  see  that.  It  is  nothing  unusual  in  the  South  to  see 
a  white  man  driving  in  a  buggy  and  his  servant  sitting  beside  him  ;  it  is 
unusual  to  see  that  in  the  North.  That  is  owing  to  the  peculiar  circum¬ 
stances  of  the  two  races.  The  Southern  man  knows  the  negro,  the 
Northern  man  does  not. 

Q.  Have  you  been  in  the  North  within  the  last  six  or  eight  years"? — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  met  with  any  trouble  in  the  North  ? — A.  I  have  not ;  I 
have  avoided  that.  A  colored  man  when  traveling  will  avoid  placing 
himself  in  positions  where  there  is  any  likelihood  of  his  getting  into 
trouble.  A  colored  man  traveling  with  his  wife  will  go  by  a  good 
many  places. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  suffered  any  political  persecution  in  the  North  ? — 
A.  O,  no,  sir. 

Q.  Colored  men  vote  freely  wherever  they  want  to  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
they  vote  freely  in  my  State. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any  political  persecution  in  your  State? — A. 
I  said,  I  think,  in  my  direct  examination  this  morning,  that  at  one  time 
during  the  reign  of  the  ku-klux  on  the  border  of  South  Carolina  we 
had  some  bulldozing,  but  that  was  not  in  colored  counties  5  we  have 
had  no  ku-klux  in  the  negro  portion  of  North  Carolina  at  all. 

Mr.  Vance.  I  will  say  of  the  ku-klux  and  their  operations — which  is 
a  matter  that  has  all  gone  by — that  they  were  not  directed  against  the 
blacks  particularly,  but  against  blacks  and  whites  indiscriminately. 

By  Mr.  Windom: 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any  ku-klux  anywhere  else  than  in  North 
Carolina? — A.  I  have  read  of  them  in  the  papers. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  them  in  South  Carolina  ? — A.  I  do  not  pro¬ 
pose  to  speak  of  South  Carolina. 

Q.  You  will  speak  of  whatever  we  ask  you,  sir. — A.  Pardon  me,  I 
meant  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  You  have  heard  of  them  in  South  Carolina? — A.  O,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  not  extend  into  North  Carolina? — A.  No,  sir;  only  into 
the  border  of  the  State,  next  to  North  Carolina,  as  1  said. 

Q.  In  what  part  of  the  State  are  these  counties  of  which  you  speak — 
the  county  in  which  yon  live  and  those  adjacent  ? — A.  In  the  northeast 
portion,  in  what  we  call  Eastern  North  Carolina. 

Q.  If  there  has  been  no  political  proscription  in  North  Carolina,  what 
do  you  suppose  Governor  Vance  meant  by  advising  the  ku-klux  to  in¬ 
terfere  as  little  as  possible  with  the  franchise;  was  it  necessary  to  inter¬ 
fere  just  a  little  ? 

In  answer  the  witness  explained,  and  afterward  Governor  Vance  ex¬ 
plained  more  fully,  that  this  advice  had  no  reference  to  ku-klux  out¬ 
rages  against  Republicans  or  to  any  interference  with  the  ballot-box  or 
with  voters.  Under  the  constitution  of  1808  townships  elected  their 
magistrates.  In  1875  the  constitution  was  amended.  In  this  amended 
constitution  the  clause  bearing  upon  this  subject  was  not  changed,  but  a 
section  was  added,  that  the  legislature  might  change  the  mode  of  electing 
magistrates  and  return  to  the  old  mode  in  practice  prior  to  the  war  of 
having  them  appointed  by  the  clerk  of  the  supreme  court.  Governor 
Vance,  in  his  message  on  the  1st  of  January,  1877,  referring  to  this, 
urged  the  legislature  to  allow  the  people  of  the  townships  to  elect  their 
own  magistrates — to  interfere  with  the  franchise  as  little  as  possible. 


•  62 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  If  that  was  all  that  Governor  Vance  meant,  why  did  the  hotheads 
of  the  Democratic  party  feel  offended  with  him,  as  you  said  ? — A.  There 
was  quite  an  excitement  in  the  Senatorial  contest  as  between  him  and 
Judge  Merrimon;  and  the  Merrimon  men  thought  it  was  a  good  chance 
to  get  up  a  point  against  Governor  Vance,  and  published  through  the 
State  that  he  was  catering  to  the  negro  element,  and  said  a  few  words 
against  him.  The  only  cause  of  it  was  simply  the  fight  between  him 
and  Judge  Merrimon. 

Q.  Must  not  a  considerable  portion  of  the  white  people  of  North  Car¬ 
olina  have  believed  in  interfering,  or  they  could  not  have  made  capital 
against  Governor  Vance  by  representing  that  he  was  opposed  to  inter¬ 
fering  with  the  franchise  ? — A.  I  don’t  see  how  that  could  affect  the  black 
people  particularly,  because  it  operated  equally  on  every  man  in  the 
State. 

Q.  You  say  Governor  Vance’s  enemies  made  capital  against  him, 
charging  that  he  urged  as  little  interference  as  possible  with  the  col¬ 
ored  vote? — A.  You  mistake,  Senator.  He  did  not  say,  with  u  the  col¬ 
ored  vote,”  but  with  “the  right  of  suffrage.” 

Q.  Do  you  not  think  there  must  have  been  a  sentiment  in  the  State, 
somewhere  or  other,  to  which  they  could  appeal,  else  they  would  not 
have  quoted  it  against  him  ? — A.  They  were  unsuccessful,  I  am  happy 
to  say,  as  you  see  by  the  fact  that  he  is  here. 

Q.  They  were  mistaken  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  were  entirely  mis¬ 
taken. 

„Q.  It  is  true  that  they  did  not  succeed  in  beating  Governor  Vance  ; 
but  those  people  who  used  this  expression  for  the  purpose  of  making 
political  capital  against  him  must  have  thought  that  there  was  such  a 
sentiment  in  existence  or  they  would  not  have  used  it? — A.  We 
had  been  agitating  for  a  long  time  the  question  of  going  back  to  the 
county  government  that  we  had  prior  to  the  war,  and  they  thought 
that  a  good  chance  to  make  prejudice  against  Governor  Vance  and 
at  the  same  time  get  back  to  the  old  system  of  county  government. 

Mr.  Vance.  The  proposition  to  amend  the  constitution  allowed  the 
legislature  to  thermit  a  county  form  of  government  if  they  thought 
proper,  and  embraced  the  power  to  give  the  legislature  the  appoint¬ 
ment  of  the  magistracy,  and  the  election  by  the  magistracy  of  all  the 
county  officers  so  as  to  take  the  right  of  voting  away  from  the  people 
if  they  thought  proper,  and  the  allusion  in  my  message  was  to  advise 
them  to  interfere  with  the  election  of  county  officers  as  little  as  pos¬ 
sible.  What  I  said  was  equally  applicable  to  all  without  regard  to 
politics  or  color.  The  county  government,  in  old  times,  was  fixed  ; 
now  it  is  entirely  in  the  discretion  of  the  legislature. 

By  Mr.  WiNDOM ; 

Q.  Were  these  hotheads,  who  you  say  took  advantage  of  this  ex¬ 
pression  in  Governor  Vance’s  message  to  make  political  capital  against 
him,  or  to  attempt  to  do  so,  were  they  opposed  to  white  people  vot¬ 
ing? — A.  As  much  so  as  they  were  to  colored  people  voting. 

Q.  On  what  grounds? — A.  1  cannot  say  on  what  grounds;  but  it 
must  have  been  so,  because  it  applied  just  as  much  to  white  people  as 
to  colored  people ;  as  much  to  the  western  part  of  the  State,  inhab¬ 
ited  almost  entirely  by  white  people,  as  to  the  central  portion,  what 
is  called  the  Piedmont  section,  where  there  are  a  very  few  white 
people. 

Q.  The  poor  whites  are  largely  Republican,  are  they  not? — A.  I 
never  found  that  to  be  true. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


63 


A.  Is  it  not  true  of  the  white  farmers  in  the  mountain  districts? _ A. 

I  have  always  regarded  the  politics  of  the  white  farmers  in  Western 
North  Carolina,  in  the  mountain  districts,  as  floating  capital;  which¬ 
ever  party  will  give  the  greatest  advantages  they  will  generally  vote 
for;  whichever  offers  them  the  most  inducements  will  get  their  votes. 

Q.  They  were  men  of  strong  Union  sentiments  during  the  war? — A. 
Generali v  so. 

Q.  You  say  you  think  the  farmers  of  North  Carolina  are  as  pros¬ 
perous  as  those  of  any  part  of  the  country,  or  more  so? — A.  I  said 
equally  so. 

Q.  How  do  those  farmers  get  along  who  have  no  law  practice  to  sup¬ 
port  them  ? — A.  About  the  same  as  farmers  generally. 

Q.  Did  you  not  say  that  experience  had  shown  that  a  man  could  not 
carry  on  a  farm  in  North  Carolina  unless  lie  had  a  law  practice  to  sup¬ 
port  it? — A.  No;  I  said  that  when  a  lawyer  attempted  to  carry  on  a 
farm,  his  experience  was  that  it  took  his  practice  to  support  his  farm. 
I  meant  by  that,  that  if  he  had  any  practice  at  all,  he  would  have  to 
attend  to  it,  and  must,  therefore,  neglect  his  farm,  when  he  ought  to 
be  at  work  upon  his  farm  ;  he  would  be  called  away  to  the  courts,  and 
to  his  office,  just  at  the  time,  perhaps,  when  farm  work  was  most  press¬ 
ing,  but  it  would  have  to  be  left  undone,  and  farming  cannot  be  made 
a  success  in  that  wav. 

Q.  About  how  many  emigrants  have  left  North  Carolina,  do  you  esti¬ 
mate,  during  the  past  year? — A.  I  should  say,  without  pretending  to  be 
exact,  that  there  have  been  probably  2,500  or  3,000,  including  men, 
women,  and  children. 

Q.  Within  what  time  has  that  migration  taken  place? — A.  Mostly 
within  the  past  six  months. 

Q.  From  what  counties  has  this  emigration  principally  been  ? — A. 
Mostly  from  Greene,  Lenoir,  Wayne,  and  Jones. 

Q.  What  do  the  emigrants  allege  as  the  cause? — A.  The  cause  they 
have  told  me  is  that  they  could  have  better  wages  in  Indiana  and  Kan¬ 
sas,  better  chances  of  li  ving,  and  better  educational  facilities  than  in 
North  Carolina. 

Q,  Have  you  heard  of  any  political  reasons? — A.  None  until  siuce  I 
came  here. 

Q.  By  whom,  since  you  came  here,  have  you  been  told  that  there 
were  political  reasons  for  this  migration  ? — A.  By  a  man  named  Otey — 
C.  M.  Otey. 

Q.  W  hat  political  reasons  did  he  give  you? — A.  He  did  not  give  me 
any  ;  he  told  me  what  reason  he  had  heard  given  by  another  man. 

Q.  What  other  man?— A.  A  gentleman  named  Mendenhall. 

Q.  Where  does  Mr.  Otey  live? — A.  At  present  in  this  city. 

Q.  How  many  men  have  you  heard  of  inducing  this  emigration  from 
North  Carolina? — A.  I  have  heard  of  several ;  perhaps  half  a  dozen  or 
more. 

Q.  Give  their  names,  please. — A.  Ido  not  know  that  I  can  nametkem 

all. 

Q.  Give  the  names  of  some  of  them. — A.  I  have  heard  that  Mr.  Duke- 
hart,  for  instance,  was  one  of  them. 

Q.  Who  else  ? — A.  Taylor  Evans. 

Q.  Is  Taylor  Evans  a  white  or  a  black  man  ? — A.  He  is  a  black  man. 

Q.  Can  you  name  any  other  person  that  you  know  of  ?— A.  I  do  not 
know  of  any  other. 

Q.  Were  there  any  others  ? — A.  Y^es,  sir. 

Q.  Why  can  you" not  name  them? — A.  Because  in  many  cases  the 


6 4  NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 

names  were  not  given  to  me.  A  colored  man  would  come  to  me  and 
say,  “Mr.  O’Hara,  a  man  has  been  around  through  our  section  talking 
thus  and  so;  what  do  you  say  about  it!”  Perhaps  he  might  tell  me 
the  man’s  name,  and  I  might  forget  it;  perhaps  he  might  not  know  the 
man’s  name  himself. 

Q.  Were  they  your  own  people — colored  people  ! — A.  Generally  so; 
the  colored  men  would  come  to  me  and  say,  “I  heard  a  colored  man,  a 
stranger  to  me,  talking  so  and  so”;  or,  “they  had  a  little  meeting  at 
such  a  place  the  other  night,  and  a  man  made  a  speech  in  which  he  said 
so  and  so.” 

Q.  Were  you  ever  at  any  of  those  meetings  ! — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  a  report  of  the  speeches! — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  heard 
them  reported  by  many. 

Q.  But  you  never  heard  anything  said  down  there  about  any  political 
motives! — A.  No,  sir;  the  first  person  to  assign  a  political  motive  is 
the  one  heard  of  here — Mr.  Mendenhall. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  What  wages  will  a  colored  laborer  receive  per  month  in  North 
Carolina  ! — A.  From  $6  to  $10  per  month  ;  sometimes  $12. 

Q.  And  board  himself  ! — A.  No,  not  board  himself;  our  rule  is  mostly 
payment  with  rations. 

Q.  A  monthly  payment  of  frsm  $6  to  $10,  with  rations! — A.  Yes,  sir; 
and  a  cabin,  besides,  generally,  a  small  piece  of  laud  for  a  garden. 

Q.  What  are  the  daily  wages  in  cases  where  the  colored  laborer 
works  and  receives  pay  for  his  work  at  the  close  of  the  day  in  money  ; 
are  there  any  such  cases  ! — A.  O,  yes,  sir  ;  in  the  cotton  chopping  sea¬ 
son,  for  instance. 

Q,  1  mean  the  average — not  when  wages  are  especially  high  ! — A.  I 
was  compelled,  when  I  was  burned  out  in  April,  to  employ  some  labor, 
and  I  then  paid  from  35  to  50  cents  a  day. 

Q.  Would  that  be  about  the  average  of  wages  per  day  ! — A.  That  is 
what  was  told  me. 

Q.  What  was  the  work  you  had  for  them  to  do  ! — A.  I  had  them  cut 
down  some  trees,  and  clear  away  the  debris  from  the  place  where  I  had 
been  burned  out. 

Q.  Ordinary  rough,  heavy  work  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  going  to  speak  of  the  employment  of  men  at  some  other 
work,  at  which  wages  were  a  little  better;  when  was  that! — A.  During 
the  cotton  chopping  season  wages  are  75  and  80  cents  a  day. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  the  “cotton  chopping  season”!— A.  After 
cotton  is  planted  and  comes  up,  it  always  comes  up  too  thickly,  and  it 
is  necessary  to  go  over  it  with  a  hoe  and  cut  out  the  surplus  plants, 
leaving  only  enough  to  thrive. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  wages  of  laborers  are  throughout  the 
North  ! — A.  No,  sir  ;  but  I  know  this,  that  the  same  class  of  unskilled 
laborers  would  not  have  averaged  more  than  $10  or  $12  per  month. 

Q.  Are  you  aware  that  negro  labor,  which  gets  25  and  30  cents  a  day 
in  North  Carolina,  gets  twice  as  much  there  as  in  the  North  ! — A.  I  do 
not  know  that  it  does. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  that  has  been  pretty  generally  stated  to  these 
colored  people! — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  heard  of  it. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  that  it  is  a  fact ! — A.  No,  sir  ;  1  do  not. 

Q.  1  understand  you  to  disclaim  that  there  is  any  political  influence 
at  work  in  this  exodus  movement  of  North  Carolina ! — A.  No,  sir  ;  I 
have  not. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


65 


get 


Q.  Did  you  have  any  information  to  give  your  colored  friends  as  to 
wages  in  the  North  ? — A.  Only  as  I  have  heard  and  learned  of  them.; 

Q.  What  have  you  told  them  that  a  colored  man,  who  could  get  50 
cents  in  North  Carolina,  could  get  in  New  York  ! — A.  I  have  given  them 
no  information  on  that  subject. 

Q.  Was  it  not  the  first  thing  that  one  of  these  colored  men,  of  the 
class  you  represent,  would  ask  when  he  came  to  you  for  information  ! 
Didn’t  they  think  they  could  get  higher  wages,  and  save  money  enough, 
in  a  short  time,  to  buy  them  a  farm  ! — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  a  great  many  did. 
Q.  You  say  a  great  many  expected  to  get  farms.  Did  they  expect  to 
it  them  without  money  ! — A.  I  think  some  of  them  did. 

Q.  You  do  not  think  that  they  are  a  race  of  fools,  do  you  ?  You  are 
a  pretty  good  illustration,  yourself,  that  they  are  not  ! — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  they  have  a  good  deal  of  mother  wit,  do  you  not  ! _ A. 

Yes,  sir. 

Q.  W ell,  Mr.  O’Hara,  if  you  are  a  fair  representative  of  their  interests, 
you  will  get  their  votes  ! — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  though  sometimes  their  votes  are 
bought  from  them. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  they  can  look  out  for  number  one  about  as 
well  as  average  native  Americans  ? — A,  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  main  portion  of  them  are  pretty  sharp  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  they  expected  to  get  a  dollar  and  a  dollar  and  a  half  a  day 
jn  Kansas  and  Indiana  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  was  this  expectation  of  buying  a  farm — didn’t  they  expect  to 
get  it  by  earning  the  money,  the  same  as  they  would  have  to  do  in  the 
South? — A.  Yes,  sir*  that  is  correct.  But  you  do  not  seem  to  get  my 
idea  about  their  situation. 

Q.  I  think  1  do;  and  you  will  pardon  me  if  I  examine  you  after  my 
own  fashion.  You  -wanted  to  keep  the  colored  voters  at  home,  didn’t 
you,  where  you  need  them  yourself  ! — A.  I  do  not  so  desire  for  the  pur¬ 
pose  you  refer  to. 

Q.  You  are  a  colored  politician,  are  you  not  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  are  quite  as  smart  as  the  white  ones  generally  t — A.  Well, 
sir,  I  do  not  know  as  to  that.  I  thought  I  was  called  here  to  answer 
questions,  and  not  to  argue  them.  But  if  you  desire,  Senator,  to  argue 
them  with  me,  I  shall  try  to  accommodate  you. 

Q.  You  are  a  carpet-bagger,  are  you  not ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  colored  carpet  bagger  from  New  York  to  North  Carolina  ! — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  teach  school  down  there  ! — A.  YAs,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  are  now  a  leading  lawyer  there  t — A.  I  don’t  know  as  to 
how  far  1  am  a  leading  lawyer. 

Q.  You  came  here  to  Washington  as  a  contestant  for  a  seat  from 
North  Carolina  in  the  House  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  jury  to  pass  upon  the  case  is  composed  of  white  men  ! — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  mostly  Democrats  f — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Aud  you  think  your  testimouy  is  in  the  line  of  the  general  feeling 
of  the  colored  people  of  North  Carolina  — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  it  is. 

Q.  1  do  not  ask  you  now,  Mr.  O’Hara,  if  it  is  a  fact;  but,  1  say,  do 
you  think  you  are  talking  the  general  views  of  the  colored  people  of 
North  Carolina  ! — A.  I  think  I  do,  Senator.  1  think,  in  fact,  I  do  repre- 
sent  their  views. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  for  the  state  of  mind  of  these  people  who  go 
North.  Do  you  think  that  this  movement  arises  from  a  settled  state  ot 
mind  on  their  part ! — A.  No,  sir  ;  1  do  not. 

5  EX 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


G6 

The  Chairman.  You  asked,  Senator  Blair,  for  a  state  of  mind,  and  I 
desire  to  have  the  witness  answer  without  you  doubling  questions  on 
him. 

The  Witness.  You  may  double  the  questions  as  much  as  you  please, 
but  1  only  ask  you  to  allow  me  to  answer  them  when  you  do. 

Senator  Blalr.  1  do  not  think  the  witness  needs  protection. 

The  Chairman.  It  is  an  imputation  which  you  have  just  cast  in  your 
previous  questions  upon  the  motives  of  this  witness  in  testifying  before 
this  committee  that  he  was  a  carpet-bagger  and  a  negro  from  the  North 
who  was  trying  a  contested  election  case  against  a  white  man  before  a 
white  jury  composed  of  Democrats. 

The  Witness.  J  understand  fully  the  imputation,  that  I  was  bringing 
testimony  here  before  this  committee  in  order  to  affect  my  case  in  Con¬ 
gress. 

Senator  Blair.  Then  1  say  distinctly  that  I  cast  no  such  imputation 
upon  your  motives;  1  do  not  want  to  be  so  understood.  And  now  let 
us  resume  this  examination. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Blair.)  Do  you  not  look  at  this  matter  from  a  different 
standpoint  from  those  colored  men  who  are  emigrating  to  the  North  ? — 
A.  No,  sir;  1  do  not  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  motive  of  these  men  who  go  to  the  North  ? — A. 
I  think  1  do. 

Q.  Will  you  state  what  motive  or  those  motives  may  be. — A.  The 
principal  motive,  so  far  as  I  know,  is  that  they  will  get  larger  wages 
when  they  get  to  Indiana;  that  they  will  receive  a  bonus  from  the  gov¬ 
ernment;  and  that  they  will  get  fuller  protection  in  their  property  and 
rights  when  they  get  there.  My  reason  for  stating  these  grounds  is, 
quite  a  number  have  been  to  me  at  my  office  to  ask  what  the  govern 
inent  was  going  to  do  for  them.  They  stated  that  they  had  been  in¬ 
formed  that  they  were  to  receive  new  clothing  when  they  got  here  to 
Washington,  and  were  to  receive  $1.50  a  day  for  their  labor  in  Indiana; 
and  I  have  invariably  stated  to  them  that  the  government  could  do 
nothing  for  them.  I  have  stated  that  Congress  will  not  and  ought  not 
to  give  them  anything.  I  am  one  of  those  who  think  the  American 
negro  ought  to  be  left  to  work  out  his  own  destiny,  and  that  he  has 
been  a  foundling  and  a  ward  too  long  already.  At  the  same  time,  I  be¬ 
lieve  that  no  man  ought  to  be  made  discontented  in  his  condition  sim  - 
ply  in  order  that  he  may  be  cheated  out  of  that  which  he  has. 

Q.  And  you  claim,  if  I  understand  you,  that  false  representations  are 
made  to  these  people  ? — A.  So  far  as  the  government  aiding  them  with 
lands  and  giving  them  clothes,  they  certainly  have  had  false  representa¬ 
tions  made  to  them. 

Q.  Now,  what  do  you  know  of  the  influence  of  that  statement  upon 
these  men  ? — A.  I  suppose  it  had  an  influence  and  a  favorable  one,  be¬ 
cause  they  acted  upon  it.  Had  they  not  given  credence  to  the  reports 
they  would  not  have  gone,  I  suppose. 

Q.  What  man  who  went  out  in  counectiou  with  the  exodus  to  the 
West  has  ever  told  you  why  he  had  gone? — A.  1  saw  several  who  said 
they  were  going  there  because  of  these  statements. 

Q.  But  you  informed  them  properly  at  the  time,  did  you  not? — A.  I 
do  not  remember,  sir ;  I  generally  do.  I  have  seen  large  numbers  of 
these  negroes  in  transitu. 

Q.  Have  you  known  any  of  those  that  went  out  to  come  back? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  but  I  have  not  been  down  in  that  section  of  the  country 
where  they  went  from  much  of  late;  in  fact  it  is  not  yet  time  for  many 
of  them  to  get  back. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  67 

Q.  That  was  about  six  months  ago,  wasn't  it,  Mr.  O’Hara?— A.  I  be¬ 
lieve  about  it. 

Q.  It  was  six  months  ago,  was  it  not,  Mr.  O’Hara,  when  this  exodus 
first  begun? — A.  I  believe  it  was. 

Q.  You  have  known  all  the  time  that  these  things  were  true? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  these  statements  that  you  say  were  false  and  were  mis¬ 
representations  had  been  circulated  among  these  people? — A.  I  think 
I  have. 

Q.  And  you  have  contradicted  them  pretty  generally? — A.  Yes,  sir, 
so  far  as  the  government  provisions  were  concerned,  and  as  to  what 
they  would  receive  when  they  got  there,  but  not  as  to  the  wages,  for  I 
did  not  know  much  about  them.  I  have  done  this,  however,  with  refer¬ 
ence  to  that:  I  have  shown  them  from  the  published  reports  that  laborers 
did  no£  get  a  dollar  and  a  half  a  day.  The  wages  paid  about  the  towns 
and  cities  and  by  corporations  might  sometimes  be  higher  than  that 
paid  to  the  average  laborer  for  day  work,  but  in  that  case  I  suppose  it 
is  like  it  is  everywhere  else — the  men  are  paid  more  than  on  the  farms, 
and  sometimes  paid  more  for  their  political  influence  than  for  their  labor. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  these  contradictions  have  been  as  universally 
circulated  as  the  statements  themselves?— A.  Not  at  all,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  exodus  is  still  going  on? — A.  I  have  heard  of  a  number 
who  are  still  going. 

Q.  Do  not  you  know  that  it  is  increasing? — A.  No,  sir;  my  under¬ 
standing  is  that  it  is  decreasing.  I  think  most  of  it  is  from  the  counties 
of  Lenoir  and  Greene,  where  I  have  not  been  recently. 

Q.  Then  your  information  is  not  sufficient  for  you*  to  speak  of  those 
counties? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  do  not  mean  or  claim  to  give  to  the  committee  information 
regarding  the  exodus  outside  of  your  own  State? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Who  was  your  competitor  in  your  last  race  for  Congress  ? — A. 
Judge  William  Throne. 

Q.  He  was  a  white  man,  was  he  not? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  a  rivai  candidate  for  the  place? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  a  carpet¬ 
bagger  from  Pennsylvania. 

Q.  Well,  he  was  a  carpet-bagger  just  as  you  were,  from  the  North  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  used  the  term  as  it  has  been  used  pretty  much  throughout  the 
country,  and  only  because  I  thought  it  remarkable  to  And  a  colored 
man  in  the  South  who  was  a  carpet-bagger. — A.  I  take  no  offense  at 
the  application  of  it.  I  went  there  to  live  among  my  people.  These 
are  not  alone  the  views  I  have  expressed  here,  aud  I  have  not  expressed 
them  in  view  of  my  present  contest  in  Congress,  but  I  have  expressed 
them  everywhere  in  private  aud  in  meetings  of  the  colored  people  in 
North  Carolina. 

Q.  Judge  Throne  was  a  white  Republican,  you  say  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  did  he  poll  in  the  election? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir, 
and  I  cannot  remember. 

Q.  It  was  a  very  trivial  number,  was  it  not? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  the 
reason  of  that  was - 

Q.  I  did  not  ask  for  the  reason  ;  I  asked  if  it  was  not  a  very  trivial 
number  of  votes  that  he  received. — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  your  other  competitor  was  a  colored  man  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  votes  did  he  have? — A.  I  think  about  3,000. 

Q.  How  many  votes  did  you  have  as  a  fact  and  as  you  claim  ?  A. 
About  17,000. 


68 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  How  many  majority  was  there  against  you  as  counted;? — A. 
thousand  and  some  odd. 

Q.  Now,  if  the  entire  Republican  vote  for  Throne  and  yourself!  and 
Harris  had  been  cast  for  one  man,  he  would  have  been  electedRy  a  very 
handsome  majority  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Out  of  that  large  number  of  votes,  how  many  do  you  sup  pose*  were 
white  men  ? — A.  I  do  not  suppose  there  were  a  hundred.  I  see  that  a 
couple  of  Quakers  voted  for  me. 

Q.  How  man  Democrats  were  colored  ? — A.  I  do  not  suppose  there 
were  more  than  50  or  75.  I  have  not  learned  of  any  colored  men  who 
voted  that  way  in  my  section. 

Q.  How  many  Democratic  votes  were  counted  against  you  ? — A.  I 
believe  Captain  Ivilehin’s  vote  was  1,022  majority. 

Q.  Now,  will  you  give  us  the  number  of  colored  votes  cast  in  your 
district,  and  the  way  those  votes  were  divided  between  the  parties  f 
Your  vote  was  about  17,000? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Your  colored  competitor  3,000  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Throne’s  how  much  ? — A.  Very  few,  sir. 

Q.  Less  than  a  thousand  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  500  do  for  him  ? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  A  reasonable  aggregate  for  him  would  be  500,  you  say*? — A.  Yes, 


sir. 

Q.  How  many  Democratic  votes  were  polled  ? — A.  10,500. 

Q.  The  Republican  votes,  all  but  200,  are  colored,  and  that  leaves 
about  22,200  colored  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  all  the  Democratic  votes  were  white,  you  think,  except  about 
75  % — A.  Well,  say  give  them  200  who  are  colored. 

Q.  So  it  comes  to  this,  that  in  this  district,  where  the  right  of  suffrage 
is  free,  and  the  colored  people  are  substantially  united,  and  for  the  Re¬ 
publican  party,  a  white  Democrat  is  sent  to  Congress  to  represent  the 
district  ? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  that  the  same  thing  is  done  in  the  other  States 
as  between  the  two  parties  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  as  1  have  not  been 
there  to  see. 

Q.  If  you  have  any  opinion  on  the  subject  please  give  us  that. — A.  I 
have  not  one.  1  should  only  knowT  about  that  from  what  1  have  read 
and  heard,  but  as  to  our  own  State  1  know  just  how  it  stands. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  On  this  question  of  wages,  Mr.  O’Hara,  I  wish  to  ask  you  a  few 
questions.  Where  the  wages  are  35  cts.  or  50  cts.  a  day,  do  you  mean 
that  that  is  where  the  man  boards  himself  or  where  his  employer  boards 
him? — A.  I  feed  those  whom  I  hire,  and  it  is  generally  understood  that 
they  are  fed  when  hired  by  the  day. 

Q.  You  feed  your  hands  and  give  them  rations  ? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  no  understanding,  you  say,  that  the  prices  paid  to 
laborers  are  better  or  very  much  better  in  Indiana  than  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina? — A.  For  that  class  of  farm  laborers  I  do  not  think  so. 

Q.  In  these  circulars  that  you  read  to  these  people  and  that  were 
used  by  you  to  show  the  inducements  offered  to  white  emigrants,  what 
was  the  general  rate  set  down  there? — A.  From  $10  to  $15  a  month; 
ranging  between  that. 

Q.  And  you  say  as  an  average  the  rate  was  about  $12  ? — A.  About 
that. 

Q.  Well,  that  is  not  much  different  from  what  the  colored  laborer  gets 
in  North  Carolina,  is  it  ? — A.  No,  sir  -  and  then  I  took  into  considera- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


69 


tion  this  other  fact  that  in  North  Carolina  he  would  never  have  to  com¬ 
pete  with  the  German  or  other  foreign  labor,  and  besides,  so  far  as  I 
know.no  matter  what  the  compensation  for  their  labor  is,  there  are 
colored  men  who  will  not  work.  Then  there  are  others  who  can  always 
get  work.  Again,  in  the  North  white  mechanics  and  skilled  laborers 
will  not  work  at  the  same  bench  or  on  the  same  house  with  the  colored 
mechanic,  but  there  in  our  State  the  colored  mechanics,  carpenters  and 
brick  masons,  have  pretty  much  the  monopoly  of  the  work,  and  hence 
it  was  that  I  stated  to  them  to  stay  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  The  question  was  put  to  you  by  Mr.  Blair  as  to  whether  you  are 
singular  and  alone  in  your  views  with  reference  to  this  emigration.  I 
ask  you  what  is  the  fact  as  to  the  leading  and  the  most  intelligent  men 
of  the  country  in  the  Republican  party  of  your  section? — A.  I  think  I 
express  their  views,  and  if  you  will  allow  me,  I  think  I  have  a  paper 
here  giving  an  account  of  a  meeting  held  in  Raleigh,  which  I  will  show 
to  the  committee. 

After  searching  for  the  paper  the  witness  said  : 

I  have  not  the  paper  here,  but  I  will  show  it  to  the  committee  at  some 
other  time. 

Q.  Mr.  O’Hara,  as  I  understand,  your  people  are  publishing  a  good 
many  newspapers.  Will  you  please  tell  us  some  of  them? — A.  Well, 
sir ;  The  Journal  of  Industry,  at  Raleigh,  The  Star  of  Zion,  at  Concord, 
The  Concord  Pilot,  The  Raleigh  Standard  ;  I  think  about  six  in  all. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  those  papers  are  supporting  this  movement  ? 
— A.  Not  one  of  them. 

Q.  You  state  that  the  eutire  colored  press  of  North  Carolina  is  oppos¬ 
ing  it? — A.  Yes,  sir;  every  one  so  far  as  I  can  hear. 

Q.  All  of  them  without  a  single  exception  are  throwing  obstacles  in 
the  way  of  this  emigration  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Take  Mr.  Frederick  Douglass,  I  believe  he  is  regarded  as  a  repre¬ 
sentative  man  of  your  race  ? — A.  I  think  he  is. 

Q.  I  have  been  informed  that  lie  is  opposed  to  it  ? — A.  I  believe  that 
lie  is,  and  in  fact  nearly  all  of  our  prominent  colored  people  are  opposed 
to  it  except  these  few  men  hero  about  Washington.  I  am  in  communi¬ 
cation  with  a  number  of  intelligent  colored  men,  all  of  whom  are  op¬ 
posed  to  this  emigration. 

Q.  You  think  the  weight  of  influence  of  these  intelligent  colored  men 
is  all  opposed  to  the  movement? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  of  the  influence  of  these  colored  men  in  this 
city  who  are  helping  the  movement? — A.  I  cannot  say,  sir;  I  have  not 
conversed  with  any  one  of  them  upon  it,  and  have  been  otherwise  en¬ 
gaged. 

Q.  There,  is  however,  a  wide  diversity  of  opinion  between  them  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir.  •  / 

Q.  That  is,  so  far  as  you  know;  and  so  far  as  you  know,  the  press  of 
your  State  is  opposed  to  it?— A.  Yes,  sir;  I  may  say  the  entire  colored 
and  white  press  of  the  State. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  You  say  the  leading  colored  men  are  all  opposed  to  the  exodus  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  so. 

Q.  You  spoke  awhile  ago  of  the  intelligent  colored,  men  of  the  coun¬ 
try.  Do  you  mean  to  confine  the  word  “ country  ”  to  North  Carolina  ?• — 
A.  No,  sir:  I  did  not  mean  to  say  that  North  Carolina  was  the  entire 
country.  1  said  the  entire  press  of  North  Carolina,  and  a  large  propor¬ 
tion  of  the  colored  men  whom  I  have  conversed  with  are  opposed  to  it. 


70 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Well,  I  understood  you  to  make  the  remark  as  applying  to  the 
country  generally  f — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  as  I  did. 

Q.  Well,  now,  wliat  is  the  truth,  Mr.  O’Hara,  as  to  the  intelligent 
colored  people  of  the  country  generally  1 — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir. 

Q.  Ho  you  know  anv  of  the  intelligent  colored  people  of  the  country 
who  are  opposed  to  it  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  that  I  could  name  any. 
I  am  not  busying  myself  to  keep  in  communication  with  them  on  the 
subject. 

Q.  Ho  you  know  anything  of  the  actiou  of  the  national  colored  con¬ 
vention  last  year  at  Nashville  on  this  subject  f — API  was  invited,  but 
as  I  thought  I  saw  the  linger  of  two  or  three  men  in  there  whose  pur¬ 
poses  I  suspected,  I  did  not  go. 

Q.  You  do  not  know,  then,  what  its  action  was  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  the  views  of  the  colored  men  of  Georgia,  Alabama,  and  Mis¬ 
sissippi  and  the  other  States,  who  were  gathered  together  there  ? — 
A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not.  All  I  know  relates  to  North  Carolina,  and  I 
know  a  number  of  the  prominent  men  of  the  State  are  opposed  to  the 
exodus  Irom  there. 

Q.  Who  are  they  ? — A.  T  do  not  know  that  1  can  particularize  them, 
but  I  know  the  fact  from  speaking  with  them  in  social  gatherings  and 
casually. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  repeat  that  remark  reported  to  you  by  the  gen¬ 
tleman  as  having  been  made  by  Mr.  Mendenhall. — A.  Mr.  Otey,  ot 
this  city,  stated  that  the  object  of  the  association  at  first  was  to  aid 
those  parties  who  had  emigrated  from  Mississippi,  Louisiana,  and  other 
places,  and  who  were  reported  to  be  suffering  in  Saint  Louis  and  de¬ 
pending  upon  their  cold  charities.  Mr.  Otey  became  a  member  of  the 
society  and  thought  that  was  the  object  of  the  society  until  Mr.  Men¬ 
denhall  suggested  that  Indiana  was  a  doubtful  State,  and  he  thought 
it  would  be  a  good  idea  to  take  the  negroes  out  of  Virginia  and  North 
Caroliua,  as  they  were  States  of  easy  access,  and  remove  them  to  In¬ 
diana  to  carry  the  State. 

Q.  Ho  you  know  the  time  when  that  was  said  or  alleged  to  have  oc¬ 
curred? — A.  I  thiuk  I  do  ;  it  was  at  the  first  or  second  meeting  of  the 
association.  He  had  been  elected  vice-president  of  the  society,  and  on 
account  of  that  he  severed  his  connection  with  it. 

Q.  He  is  an  editor,  I  believe  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  the  editor  of  The 
Argus.” 

Q.  Where  is  that  paper  published  ? — .V.  Here  in  Washington  City. 


JBy  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  Ho  you  know  of  any  one  having  been  to  North  Carolina. for  of  any¬ 
thing  having  been  done  aboutthis  exodus  until  Perry  and  Williams  came 
from  there  last  October  with  some  of  these  people  ? — A.  I  do  not  know 
anything  about  Williams,  and  I  do  not  think  that  Perry  was  out  of  the 
State  until  some  two  months  ago.  I  was  down  in  La  Grange  at  the 
place  where  he  lived,  and  asked  about  him,  and  then  it  was  they  told 
me  he  was  engaged  in  this  emigration  business. 

Q.  They  resided  there  in  North  Carolina,  did  they  not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  did  you  know  of  any  actual  exodus  until  they  came  into  it  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I  knew  it  had  been  worked  up  and  excursions  had  been 
given  to  various  points  and  speeches  made  in  the  interest  of  the  removal 
of  the  colored  people. 

Q.  Of  course  it  was  worked  up,  or  these  men  would  not  have  left  the 
State  l — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  knew  nothing  of  it  when  it  was  being  done  ? — A.  Ye>, 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  71 

sir;  t  knew  it  only  in  a  general  way,  and  did  not  pay  much  attention  to 
it  at  first. 

Q.  And  these  men  Perry  and  Williams  you  say  wereaetnal  residents 
of  the  State  f — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  1  do  not  think  that  Perry  left  there  vol¬ 
untarily. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  What  were  the  compelling  motives,  Mr.  O’Hara  ? — A.  I  do  not 
state  that.  I  think  the  records  of  the  State  will  show. 

Q.  You  can  tell  it  yourself,  if  you  know,  as  this  investigation  is  very 
open  and  wants  all  the  facts '? 

Senator  Blair.  I  do  not  think,  Mr.  Chairman,  we  ought  to  allow  this 
man  to  guess  at  it  I 

Senator  Vance.  L  would  not  like  to  guess  at  it  myself. 

On  motion,  the  committee  adjourned  to  Saturday,  January  24,  at  11 
o’clock  a.  in. 


F  O  U  R  T  II  I)  A  Y  . 

Washington,  Saturday ,  January  24,  1880. 

The  committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment.  Present,  the  chairman 
and  all  the  members  of  the  committee. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MR.  J.  P.  I)  UK  EH  ART. 

John  P.  Dukeiiart  sworn  and  examined. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Mr.  Dukehart,  where  do  yon  reside  ? — Answer.  Baltimore. 

Q.  What  is  your  full  name! — A.  John  P.  Dukehart. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  resided  in  Baltimore  l — A.  Fifty-live  years. 

Q.  I  take  it  it  is  your  native  place  ? — xY.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  State  what  your  business  is  at  this  time. — A.  1  am  Southern  pas¬ 
senger  agent  of  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  passenger  agent  of  that  road  ? — A.  Six 
years. 

Q.  What  were  you  before  ? — xY.  I  was  conductor  on  the  road. 

Q.  Between  what  points? — A.  Baltimore  and  Washington;  also 
Wheeling,  and  in  fact  over  the  entire  road. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  service  of  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio 
Railroad  ? — A.  Next  April  will  be  thirty  years. 

Q.  You  may  state  whether  your  road  isengaged  in  carrying  the  colored 
emigrants  from  North  Carolina  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  we  are  carrying  all  that 
1  can  sell  tickets  to. 

Q.  Have  you  the  number  of  persons  that  you  have  been  selling  tickets 
to  ? — A.  I  cannot  tell  how  many  tickets  we  have  sold.  I  never  took 
any  account  of  the  children  who  went  over  the  road.  Of  course  we  can 
tell  by  an  examination  of  the  books  how  many  tickets  have  been  sold, 
both  wholes  and  halves,  but  I  do  not  know  the  entire  number  of  people 
who  traveled  over  the  road,  men,  women,  and  children. 

Q.  Above  what  age  are  children  required  to  have  tickets  ? — xY  Five 
years. 

Q.  And  all  children  above  that  age  have  tickets  to  show  for  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 


72 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  When  did  this  movement  commence? — A.  The  last  Whitsun¬ 
tide,  which  is  the  great  holiday  for  negroes,  I  received  orders  from  our 
department  to  go  to  Weldon  and  look  to  this  movement  of  the  exodus, 
which  T  did,  and  when  I  arrived  there  I  found  the  Pennsylvania  Rail¬ 
road  and  the  Chesapeake  and  Ohio  Railroad  already  interested  in  it. 
The  whole  movement  fell  through  at  that  time  on  account  of  a  want  of 
confidence  in  the  negroes;  but  about  the  25th  of  October  I  received  a 
notice  to  go  to  a  place  called  Le  Grange,  in  North  Carolina,  and  had 
my  attention  called  to  two  negroes  named  Perry  and  Williams.  I  was 
to  see  them  at  once.  I  was  engaged  at  that  time  in  securing  a  number 
of  emigrants  from  Midland,  in  Virginia. 

Q.  Were  they  white  or  colored  ? — A.  White.  You  know,  Senator, 
there  is  a  great  deal  of  competition  in  this  business.  I  received  a  tele¬ 
gram  from  Baltimore  saying  that  the  Pennsylvania  agents  were  there 
at  Le  Grange,  and  were  trying  to  get  this  emigration.  I  went  to  see 
Perry,  and  gave  him  the  established  rates  over  our  line  of  road  and  left 
him;  and  in  ten  days  I  received  another  order  from  our  road  to  go  to 
Le  Grange,  as  the  party  were  about  to  leave  and  had  money  to  pay  their 


way. 

Q.  What  month  was  that? — A.  That  was  in  the  month  of  November. 
I  went  there  and  found  that  there  were  forty  ready  to  leave,  and  all  of 
them  were  going  to  Indianapolis. 

Q.  To  Indianapolis  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  But  I  only  got  them  to  purchase 
eighteen  tickets,  on  account  of  their  being  told  that  when  they  reached 
here  they  would  receive  their  tickets  here  at  Washington.  Perry  was  at 
the  train  at  the  time.  I  took  them  to  the  train.  They  were  t,o  raise  me 
$270  to  pay  for  their  tickets,  and  they  did  not  raise  it  for  me  at  the 
time;  in  fact  I  had  to  hold  the  train. 

Q.  Where  was  that? — A.  That  was  here  in  Washington  that  I  am 
speaking  of;  after  they  got  here. 

Q.  Who  was  to  raise  the  money  ? — A.  Thiscommitteeof  the  emigrants’ 
society. 

Q.  Who  was  that  committee  composed  of  ? — A.  Of  Wall  and  Adams. 
Adams  paid  me  the  money  himself. 

Q.  How  much  ? — A.  Two  hundred  and  seventy  dollars' 

Q.  Mr.  Dukehart,  was  that  the  first  lot  that  went  over  your  road  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  engage  for  that  lot  before  they  left  North  Carolina  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 


Q.  And  you  brought  them  this  far  on  their  responsibility,  or  did  they 
have  the  money  raised  for  you  ? — A.  It  was  raised  for  me.  They  paid 
their  way  from  North  Carolina  all  the  way  through  here,  and  then  they 
paid  from  Washington  through  to  Indianapolis. 

Q.  And  before  you  would  let  them  go  from  here  they  were  made  to 
pay  to  Indianapolis? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  money,  you  say,  was  raised  by  this  committee? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 


Q.  In  a  general  way,  let  us  know  what  plan  you  finally  fell  upon  for 
carrying  these  people  to  Indiana — what  the  arrangements  were  in  de¬ 
tail. — A.  The  first  arrangement  was  made  on  the  Wilmington  and  Wel¬ 
don  Railroad,  and  they  were  to  give  a  $15  rate  from  GoUlsborough  to 
Indiana. 


By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  That  is,  the  Wilmington 
other  roads? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


and  Weldon  was  to  prorate  with 


the 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


72 

4  «J> 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Tlie  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad  lias  no  road  south  of  here  ? — A. 
No.  sir. 

Q.  And  you  went,  you  say,  as  the  Southern  agent  to  get  this  busi¬ 
ness  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q,  And  you  stated  to  them  to  make  a  rate  of  $15,  and  prorated 
among  themselves,  that  is,  the  roads  between  here  and  Goldsborough, 
and  when  they  got  here  your  prorate  would  be  $9  on  to  Indiana? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  the  first  arrangement? — A.  Yes,  sir.  After  forty-four 
tickets  had  been  sold  the  Wilmington  and  Weldon  flew  the  track  and 
went  back  on  us  and  demanded  their  second-class  rate  of  $3.15  for  each 
ticket,  and  we  could  then  issue  no  more  through  tickets.  That  left  us 
in  the  dark.  We  fished  around  there,  however,  bidding  for  rates.  The 
whole  town  was  filled  with  people,  and  we  had  a  great  deal  of  trouble 
telegraphing  backwards  and  forwards,  and  finally  we  got  a  rate  of  $10.00 
to  Indianapolis. 

Q.  There  has  been  some  testimony  here,  Mr.  Dukehart,  of  an  alleged 
drawback  of  one  dollar.  Tell  us  about  that. — A.  Well,  sir,  in  working 
for  this  business  there  is  a  commission  allowed  to  the  leader  of  all  par¬ 
ties.  In  that  party  at  Midland  I  gave  a  dollar  drawback.  It  is  a  thing 
established  by  all  the  lines,  I  believe,  and  in  Wilmington  I  agreed  to 
pay  a  dollar  commission  on  every  passenger  that  the  agent  got. 

Q.  Who  was  that  agent  ? — A.  Z.  Taylor  Evans.  I  paid  him  a  dollar 
for  every  full  ticket,  and  a  half  dollar  for  every  half  passenger. 

Q.  You  say  that  was  Z.  Taylor  Evans? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  he  a  black  man  himself? — A.  He  is  pretty  black  and  has  thick 
bps. 

Q.  Was  that  money  paid  by  him  for  these  tickets? — A.  No,  sir;  lie 
only  got  his  own  commission.  I  have  always  paid  every  cent  in  Golds¬ 
boro’  to  Taylor  Evans. 

Q.  You  say  that  Wall  and  Adams  came  to  you  and  paid  for  forty  of 
these  negroes  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  estimated  that  that  came  to  $270  ? — A.  Ves,  sir. 
r  Q.  And  on  all  moneys  paid  by  this  emigrant  aid  society,  do  1  under¬ 
stand  you  they  received  back  a  dollar  for  each  person  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 
On  every  ticket  paid  for  by  money  furnished  by  them  I  paid  them  back 
a  dollar. 

Q.  Have  you  any  means  of  stating  to  the  committee  how  many  pas¬ 
sengers,  half  and  whole,  passed  through  this  point  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  1 
can  tell  you  all  who  passed  from  this  Southern  country  through. 

Q.  Will  you  please  give  to  us  the  figures  as  near  as  you  can  ? — A. 
The  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad  Company  has  sold  to  these  emigrants 
763  tickets,  and  out  of  that  number  there  were  235  half  tickets.  That 
was  all  the  tickets  sold  by  us  going  west.  I  take  a  little  pride  in  the 
fact  that  I  sold  to  all  that  were  sold  to.  I  think  that  I  was  able  to 
capture  all  who  went  to  Indiana,  and  the  other  roads  got  nothing. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  us  what  the  proportion  of  the  money  that  was  paid 
for  the  transportation  of  these  emigrants  was  furnished  by  this  commit¬ 
tee  from  this  point  on  ? — A.  I  cannot  say,  sir.  All  that  I  know  about  it 
was  the  $270  paid  me.  There  were  a  large  number  in  North  Carolina 
who  raised  the  mouev  to  pay  their  fare  to  Washington.  There  were 
164,  I  think,  on  the  second  trip.  There  were  a  very  large  number  on 
board  the'train  who  had  no  tickets,  and  the  conductors  came  to  me  and 
said,  “  What  shall  we  do  with  them  ?  ”  1  said  that  I  did  not  propose 


74 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 

to  take  charge  of  them  and  charge  my  company  with  the  expense  cf 
bringing  them  here,  and  they  put  off  about  500. 

By  Senator  VANCE: 

Q.  Where  was  that  ? — A.  At  Goldsboro’. 

Q.  But  there  were  104  who  came  through  to  Washington. — A.  I  took 
a  sleeping-car  and  came  through  with  them  myself.  On  that  train  there 
were  05  who  were  ready  to  pay  their  fare,  and  I  sent  them  through  a: 
$10.00  a  head.  The  others  were  taken  to  a  church  here  and  kept  there. 

Q.  That  is  the  second  party  that  you  speak  off — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is 
the  second  lot,  104.  That  is  the  largest  lot  that  ever  came  over  the  road. 

Q.  Did  the  committee  pay  you  for  it  f — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Whom  did  they  pay  it  to  i — A.  To  our  ticket  agent. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  were  sent  f — A.  They  went  off  in  separate 
lots  as  the  committee  raised  the  money.  I  think  probably  some  of  them 
are  here  yet. 

Q.  Did  the  ticket  agent  pay  the  drawback  to  them  ?•  -A.  1  do  not 
know,  sir.  I  was  not  here.  There  was  an  arrangement  1  know  to  pay 
the  drawback,  and  it  might  have  been  settled  in  Baltimore. 

Q.  You  are  the  Southern  passenger  agent  of  the  railroad  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

By  the  Chairman: 

Q.  You  are  allowed  to  make  arrangments  with  different  parties  to  get 
up  passengers  for  the  road  ’ — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  fare  from  your  depot  down  here  to  Indianapolis  f — A.. 
Sixteen  dollars,  limited  tickets,  three  days,  tirst  class. 

Q.  Are  your  emigrant  tickets  the  same,  f — A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  are  ti  e- 
same  for  emigrants. 

Q.  You  make  no  distinction  as  to  color  ? — A.  None  in  the  world. 

Q.  With  what  road  did  you  have  your  principal  competition  for  this 
business  f — A.  The  Pennsylvania  and  the  Chesapeake  and  Ohio  Roads. 

Q.  And  you  beat  them  by  bidding  better  than  they  did  ! — A.  f  do  not 
know,  sir.  They  watched  us  as  close  as  we  watched  them  without  get¬ 
ting  up  a  railroad  war,  which  Garrett  and  Scott  are  both  afraid  of. 

Q.  You  say  that  Taylor  Evans  was  an  active  man  in  the  business;  do 
you  know  where  he  lived  ? — A.  At  Goldsboro’. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  his  motives  in  recruiting  crowds  of  emi¬ 
grants  to  go  to  Indiana  f — A.  No,  sir.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  von  know  from  what  he  has  told  von  f — A.  He  tells  me  that 
he  commenced  this  thing  a  year  or  eighteen  months  ago,  speaking  about 
in  the  country  and  working  up  the  movement. 

Q.  What  did  he  tell  you  about  secret  societies  for  the  purpose? — A. 
Nothing  at  all. 

Q.  And  you  have  never  heard  anything  about  that  even  from  him  ? — 
A.  No,  sir;  not  even  from  him.  You  would  be  surprised  if  you  were  in 
my  office  in  Lynchburg  to  see  the  proposals  and  letters  sent  to  me  say¬ 
ing  u  I  have  five  hundred  emigrants  ready  to  go  to  Kansas,’’ and  asking 
for  rates  of  fare  and  all  that,  and  if  you  go  to  the  place  you  will  prob¬ 
ably  find  one  or  two  men  ready  to  go  and  neither  one  of  them  with 
money  enough. 

Q.  Mr.  Dukehai  t,  you  have  been  mixing  with  these  people  down  there 
please  state  what  their  idea  is  as  to  the  wages  they  will  receive  and 
what  they  will  get  when  they  go  to  Indiana.  Have  you  seen  any  of 
those  chromes  of  the.  homes  they  are  to  receive  or  any  of  the  circulars 
that  have  been  distributed  among  them  ! — A.  I  have  seen  some  of  the 
circulars  among  them  stating  that  good  wages  would  be  paid. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


75 


Q.  How  much  ? — A.  Well,  about  a  dollar,  a  dollar  ten,  and  a  dollar 
and  a  half  a  day. 

Q.  For  what  sort  of  labor  ? — A.  For  farm  hands. 

Q.  With  or  without  board  ? — A.  I  didn’t  see  as  to  that. 

Q.  Whom  were  they  signed  by0?— A.  These  things  emanated,  I  believe, 
from  44  The  Greeneastle  Banner.” 

Q.  Is  that  a  paper  published  in  the  town  of  Greeneastle,  Indiana? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  were  published  from  that  paper  as  editorials  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  and  also  statements  published  in  that  paper  made  by  negroes  who 
had  gone  out  there. 

Q.  Were  they  not  principally  distributed  about  there  by  Perry,  Will¬ 
iams,  and  Scott  ? — A.  I  never  saw  Perry’s  or  Williams’s  names  there  : 
they  did  their  business  principally  through  mass  meetings. 

Q.  You  stated  in  the  opening  of  your  testimony,  I  believe,  that  Perry 
left  North  Carolina  suddenly.  Have  you  any  explanation  of  why  he  left  i 
. — A.  They  had  him  indicted  by  the  grand  jury  in  La  Grange  for  forg¬ 
ing  school  certificates,  and  he  left  a  hundred  dollars  which  was  raised 
by  his  church  people  to  make  his  bail,  and  he  came  away  and  has  not 
gone  back. 

Q.  You  stated  something  of  the  competition.  State  if  you  have  any 
information  as  to  any  other  road  moving  for  this  business  ;  if  so,  please 
state  it. — A.  The  last  party, I  brought  through  came  last  week — at  least 
f  secured  them,  and  the  Chesapeake  and  Ohio  were  bidding  for  them 
$2.50  less  on  the  ticket,  but  I  held  on  to  them.  I  have  a  telegram  this 
morning  that  they  are,  through  their  agents,  about  to  establish  a:i  office 
there  to  sell  tickets  to  this  business. 

Q.  Where  is  that  ? — A.  At  Goldsboro’. 

Q.  I  will  get  you  to  give  me  the  names  of  the  parties  connected  with 
the  Chesapeake  and  Ohio  Railroad  Company  who  know  these  things  ? — 
A.  Well,  sir,  there  is  Mr.  J.  C.  Dane,  the  Southern  passenger  agent,  resi¬ 
dent  at  Richmoud ;  and  Henry  Washington,  at  Greensboro1,  is  also  an 
agent  of  that  road. 

Q.  Mr.  Dukehart,  you  have  spoken  of  receiving  a  great  number  of 
letters  proffering  crowds  of  emigrants  to  go  west.  Is  it  well  understood 
among  these  people  that  any  person  gettiug  up  a  crowd  will  get  a 
dollar  a  head  for  them  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  between  you  and  Evans  it  was  a  secret  arrangement? — A. 
A.  No,  sir  ;  everybody  did  not  know  of  it,  I  suppose,  because  those  who 
pay  for  a  single  ticket  do  not  get  any  drawback,  but  this  is  a  special 
arrangement. 

Q.  Then  the  understanding  is  that  you,  as  agent  of  the  Baltimore  and 
Ohio  Railroad  Company,  have  authority  to  employ  an  agent  where  he 
gets  a  dollar  on  every  ticket  that  he  sells  to  one  of  these  crowds  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

0.  And  you  would  feel  authorized  to  employ  anybody  as  an  agent 
who  would  furnish  you  a  sufficient  number  to  make  it  an  object  to  get 
them  over  your  road  ? — A.  L  would  employ  them  for  the  time. 

Q.  That  is,  you  give  the  drawback  when  there  is  a  party  all  going 
together  ?  Then  if  a  party,  by  mass-meeting  or  by  church  excitement  or 
otherwise,  were  to  get  up  fifty  men  and  women  to  go  over  your  road  it 
would  be  worth  $50  to  him  ? — A.  Yes,  sir,  after  you  had  sold  the  tickets. 

Q.  Then  there  was  that  inducement  held  out  to  Ferry  and  Williams 
and  all  these  people  who  were  working  in  this  business  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
that  is  what  all  the  trunk  lines  do. 

Q.  And  these  colored  men  understood  that  ? — A.  Yres,  sir  :  all  of  them. 


76 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  You  spoke  of  a  number  of  persons  coming  to  the  train  to  go  away, 
more  than  were  provided  with  tickets.  How  many  were  there  ? — A.  I 
cannot  tell  you,  sir. 

Q.  Why  didn’t  they  go? — A.  Because  they  did  not  have  money  to 
pay  for  their  tickets. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  representations  were  made  to  them  as  to  tickets 
being  given  to  them  by  the  government? — A.  I  do  not  know  as  to  that; 
but  I  think  they  were  told  that  after  they  get  to  Washington  they  would 
have  a  new  suit  of  clothes  and  free  transportation  to  Kansas  and  Indiana. 

Q.  And  Evans,  who  was  acting  as  your  agent,  was  telling  those  tales 
to  these  people  ? — A.  I  will  correct  you,  Senator.  It  was  Perry  and  Wil¬ 
liams  who  circulated  the  report.  Evans  did  not  have  anything  to  do 
with  it. 

Q.  Then  Perry  and  Williams  told  these  people  that  after  they  got  to 
Washington  they  would  be  furnished  a  new  suit  of  clothes  and  be  given 
a  free  ticket  to  Kansas  or  Indiana? — A,  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Perry  was  a  preacher,  was  he  not? — A.  No,  sir;  he  was  a  school  • 
teacher. 

Q.  Was  he  not  a  preacher  also? — A.  No,  sir;  I  never  heard  that  lie 
was. 

Q.  Well,  Williams  was  a  preacher? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  he  went  to 
Kansas  with  the  first  party,  and  has  never  returned. 

Q.  You  say  that  they  operated  by  mass  meetings? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  got  up  quite  a  great  deal  of  excitement,  did  they  not? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  and  they  were  sent  out  there  by  these  people  to  prospect 
and  see  that  everything  was  favorable  to  their  coming. 

Q.  And  in  these  parties  that  you  carried  over  the  road  there  were  no 
dead-heads  except  the  children? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  no  dead  heads  except  those  who  were  under  five  years  of 
age  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  consider  that  a  very  great  inducement  to  people  who  are  emi¬ 
grating,  to  carry  children  under  five  years  free? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is 
the  rule. 

Q.  Did  you  carry  other  people’s  children  free? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did' you  hear  of  any  polities  being  discussed  in  this  matter  ? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  anything  of  it  from  Perry  or  Williams  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  discuss  it  with  them? — A.  No,  sir;  on  the  contrary, 

I  have  not  hadanytbingtodo  with  it.  Isaid,  “lam  here  to  sell  you  these 
tickets.  If  you  don’t  want  them  I  can  get  out.”  I  will  say,  with  ref¬ 
erence  to  the  first  party,  that  when  I  was  trying  to  get  rates  every  day 
at  Goldsboro  it  was  dark  when  I  got  the  rates,  and  the  negroes  were 
all  of  them  quartered  in  a  church  at  Little  Washington.  I  was  up¬ 
stairs  in  the  hotel,  and  I  got  my  tickets  out  of  my  satchel,  went  down¬ 
stairs  into  the  back  yard,  kicked  a  board  off  the  fence,  and  went 
down  to  the  church.  I  told  them  that  our  road  was  the  only  legitimate 
line  to  the  West,  and  was  a  good  u  air-line,”  and  all  of  that  sort  of  thing. 
So  I  sold  them  all  tickets  there  in  the  church,  and  came  back  with  my 
pockets  full  of  money  to  where  the  other  agents  were;  and  we  had  a 
good  deal  of  fuss  in  a  friendly  way  over  my  beating  them  so  nicely. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  to  Indiana  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  has  gone  with  them  from  here,  asa  rule? — A.  This  man  Perry, 

I  believe,  until  the  last  two  parties  went. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  were  with  them  ? — A.  I  think  they  went  in 
charge  of  the  conductor.  There  was  nobody  went  with  them  from  here. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


77 


There  were  only  eighteen  in  the  first  party  and  twenty-live  in  the  sec¬ 
ond. 

Q.  Where  will  you  go  when  you  leave  here  l — A.  Eight  back  to  Golds¬ 
boro,  unless  somebody  stops  me. 

Q.  Are  you  going  on  this  business? — A.  Yes,  sir,  lam,  unless  the 
other  roads  should  reap  the  advantages  by  my  absence  and  scoop  them 

in. 

Q.  You  have  made  yourself  very  popular  among  them,  have  you  not, 
Mr.  Dukehart? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  lam  looked  upon  by  them  as  a  sort  of 
Moses.  They  are  like  sheep  down  there.  When  one  leads  off  they  all  go 
over  the  same  rail.  In  the  first  instance  I  got  them  by  going  to  the 
church  and  making  this  pathetic  address  to  them.  They  think  a  great 
deal  of  me  on  account  of  my  securing  this  first  party. 

Q.  You  say  they  are  like  sheep,  and  that  when  one  starts  the  balance 
follow.  Now,  from  your  general  knowledge  of  this  subject,  what  do  you 
think  of  the  future  of  this  emigration  movement  ?  Is  it  going  to  in* 
crease  or  stand  still  ? — A.  I  think  just  as  long  as  those  people  have  money 
or  can  get  money  to  pay  their  fare  they  will  keep  going  until  they  re¬ 
ceive  letters  from  those  ahead  telling  them  not  to  come,  or  some  of  them 
are  brought  back  to  tell  them  the  status  of  affairs  out  there. 

Q.  Then  you  believe  it  will  not  stop  unless  it  is  checked  from  the 
other  end  of  the  line  t — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  suppose  your  road  would  not  object  to  bringing  them  back  if 
they  want  to  come? — A.  No,  sir;  if  they  want  to  come  I  will  go  over 
there  to  Indianapolis  and  do  as  much  work  to  secure  them  as  I  did  down 
in  North  Carolina.  I  will  sell  them  tickets  either  way.  I  will  even  go 
down  to  the  church  and  make  another  address  to  them. 

Q.  You  have  the  only  airline,  I  believe  you  said? — A.  Y"es,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  of  a  line  have  you? — A.  I  do  not  know  its  full  extent. 

Q.  There  is  a  great  deal  of  it,  is  there  not,  Mr.  Dukehart  ? — A.  YY;s, 
sir. 

The  chairman  here  called  upon  Mr.  George  S.  Kooutz,  one  of  the 
agents  of  the  -Baltimore  and  Ohio  Gail  road  Company,  to  state  the  line 
of  railroad  under  the  control  of  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Gailroad  Com¬ 
pany  in  the  State  of  Indiana,  which  he  did,  and  then  presented  to  the 
committee  one  of  the  railroad  company’s  circular  maps. 

Testimony  of  John  G.  Dukehart  resumed. 

The  Witness.  This  is  the  regular  map  of  the  road,  which  shows  the 
only  legitimate  air  line  route  from  this  point  to  Indiana.  I  never  give 
up  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Through  what  counties  does  your  line  run  in  Indiana  ! — A.  I  do 
not  know  that  I  can  give  the  counties.  The  map  does  not  do  so;  but 
it  enters  below  Defiance  and  runs  up  to  Seymour  and  Belle  Union  to 
the  Chicago  Junction. 


TESTIMONY  OE  SAYLES  J.  BOWEN. 


Sayles  J.  Bowen  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  I  simply  find  your  name,  Mr.  Bowen,  as  one  of  a  board  of  audit  of 
this  concern,  the  Emigrant  Aid  Society.  A  paper  has  been  presented 
here  showing  the  disbursements  of  that  society  in  furtherance  of  this  cm- 


78 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


igration  movement.  I  do  not  recollect  the  amount,  but  whether  much 
or  not  you  can  state  whether  it  is  your  name  that  is  signed  to  that 
paper? — A.  I  never  saw  the  paper  until  it  was  read  here  and  knew 
nothing  of  its  existence. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  by  that  to  say  that  your  name  is  there  without  your 
authority  ?— A.  I  mean  to  say  that  it  is  there  without  my  knowledge  or 
authority  any  further  than  permitting  my  name  to  be  used  as  a  member 
of  the  auditing  committee. 

Q.  Have  you  acted  in  that  capacity  and  allowed  it  to  be  used  ? — A. 
No,  sir.  There  have  been  some  accounts  presented  to  me  for  passage- 
money  to  Indianapolis  for  some  of  these  emigrants.  I  have  no  recollec¬ 
tion,  however,  of  the  particulars. 

Q.  When  did  you  allow  your  name  to  be  used? — A.  I  think  it  was 
two  or  three  months  since. 

Q.  By  whom  ? — A.  I  think  Mr.  Wall  and  Mr.  Adams  came  and  asked 
if  I  would  allow  my  name  to  be  used,  and  mentioning  other  parties  who 
had  consented  to  act. 

Q.  And  you  consented  ? — A.  Yes,  sir,  after  being  told  what  were  the 
duties  of  the  committee. 

*  Q.  And  you  did  not  know  until  this  paper  was  produced  anything 
in  connection  with  the  transactions  of  the  society  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  did 
not. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  of  the  matter  of  this  emigration  except 
what  you  have  heard  here  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  merely  acted  on  this  paper, 
and  when  I  found  the  paper  all  right  I  put  my  name  to  it.  I  have  had 
no  further  business  connected  with  this  emigration  movement.  I  have 
been  down  in  Tennessee  most  of  the  time. 


TESTIMONY  OF  GEORGE  S.  KOONTZ. 

George  S.  Koontz  sworn  and  examined. 

The  Witness.  Mr.  Chairman,  1  will  say  that  I  know  nothing  of  the 
location  of  these  roads  controlled  by  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Company, 
except  what  I  get  from  the  maps.  I  know  nothing  of  the  geography  of 
that  country.  Our  line  enters  Ohio  in  the  county  of  DeKalb,  extend¬ 
ing  through  the  northern  part  of  the  State  into  Lake,  and  into  Moran  • 
thence  into  DeKalb,  Noble,  Kosciusko,  Elkhart,  Marshall,  Porter,  and 
Lake.  Those  are  the  counties  shown  by  Rand  &  McNally’s  map. 

Question.  What  other  line  of  road  does  your  company  own  or  control 
in  Indiana? — Answer.  I  do  not  know  of  any  other.  I  have  no  knowl¬ 
edge  on  that  subject. 

Q.  You  have  a  road  from  here  to  Indianapolis  ? — A.  No,  sir;  not  run¬ 
ning  into  Indianapolis. 

Q.  Howt  do  you  sell  tickets  there? — A.  We  sell  them  by  other  roads. 
We  sell  tickets  by  the  C.  C.  and  A.  and  other  roads. 

Q.  That  arrangement  you  had  running  in  January  ? — A.  This  has 
been  the  line  running  to  Grafton  and  Parkersburg,  and  thence  to  Cin¬ 
cinnati,  and  the  Indianapolis  Cincinnati  and  Lafayette  Road  running  on 
from  there. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


J.  P.  DUKE  FI  ART  recalled. 


73 


By  Senator  Windom  : 

Question.  You  spoke  a  while  ago  of  the  Wilmington  and  Weldon 
Railroad  Company  flying  the  track  in  the  matter  of  rates  :  do  you  know 
the  reason  why  they  flew  the  track  ? — Answer.  No,  sir.  The  first  thing 
they  did  was  to  sell  tickets  through  to  Washington,  and  the  next  party 
that  came  along  they  would  not  sell  them  tickets,  except  to  the  end  of 
their  line. 

Q.  So  that  they  have  not  sold  any  to  Kansas  and  Indianapolis  from 
there? — A.  No,  sir  ;  not  since  the  first  batch. 

Q.  What  was  the  destination  of  the  first  batch  ? — A.  Indianapolis. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  efforts  being  made  in  Washington  or  else¬ 
where  to  keep  the  railroad  company  from  taking  them  to  Indiana? — A. 
No,  sir  ;  I  never  heard  of  any. 

Q.  What  political  party  do  you  belong  to  ? — A.  I  am  a  Democrat. 

Q.  To  what  party  does  Mr.  Koontz  belong? — A.  I  cannot  speak  for 
him. 

Mr.  Koontz  (interrupting).  I  will  speak  for  myself;  I  am  a  Repub¬ 
lican. 

The  Witness.  I  began  by  voting  against  Henry  Clay.  Mr.  Cole,  the 
general  agent,  is  also  a  Republican. 


By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anything  political  in  this  exodus  movement,  or  is 
it  purely  a  business  transaction  ? — A.  That  was  what  it  was  with  me. 

Q.  When  did  you  first  hear  of  this  movement?  What  was  the  infor¬ 
mation  brought  to  you  as  to  the  character  of  it  in  that  section  of  coun¬ 
try?  Was  it  simply  that  a  large  number  was  going,  and  that  it  would 
be  desirable  to  secure  them  ? — A.  When  I  first  went  into  La  Grange  I 
had  a  talking  with  Ferry  and  Williams.  It  was  necessary  to  learn  the 
number  who  were  probably  going,  and  they  stated  it  at  from  fifteen  to 
twenty  thousand.  I  laughed  at  them,  and  they  said  there  was  no  use 
in  laughing,  it  was  all  right,  and  they  were  going. 

Q.  You  stated,  I  believe,  that  703  of  them  went? — A.  lres,  sir. 

Q.  Since  that  time? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  from  the  20th  of  November  to  this 
time. 

Q..  You  said,  I  believe,  that  235  of  the  703  were  half  tickets.  What 
class  of  people  did  they  represent? — A.  Children  between  five  and 
twelve  years  of  age. 

Q.  Then  the  whole  number  of  adult  tickets,  deducting  that  amount 
from  the  other,  would  be  428  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  those  would  you  say  were  women  ? — A.  I  should 
say  a  half;  I  am  only  speaking  of  them  as  I  saw  them  in  the  train,  and  I 
think  half  of  them  were  women. 

Q.  Was  there  any  considerable  number  between  12  and  20  years  of 
age? — A.  No,  sir,  not  many;  when  a  man  would  go  out  and  take  his 
family,  he  would  come  into  the  otfice  and  say  to  us,  how  much  to  In¬ 
diana?  I  would  tell  him  $1(3. GO  a  head,  and  ask  him  if  he  had  any  chil¬ 
dren.  I  have  had  them  to  answer  yes,  I  have  got  0  head.  That  fellow 
had  the  largest  family  I  ever  knew  to  go  among  them.  Out  ot  that 
family  I  think  he  had"  three  children  who  would  come  within  the  age 
described  by  our  tariff. 

Q.  Then  there  would  be  six  who  would  come  within  the  ages  of  32 
and  20? — A.  Yes,  sir.  e 


80 


NEGRO  EXODUS  I ROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Cun  you  give  any  estimate  of  the  number,  out  of  1204,  who  could 
vote  in  Indiana  next  year  ? — A.  I  could  not  tell  you,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  is  a  sufficient  number  to  create  all  this  conster¬ 
nation  in  the  Democratic  party  in  Indiana,  and  to  alarm  them  as  to  the 
Democratic  status  of  that  State  ? 

The  Chairman.  There  is  no  consternation,  Senator  Windom,  but  a 
deal  of  indignation. 

The  Witness.  I  could  not  tell  the  number  who  will  vote. 


By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  Out  of  the  2GS  you  say  half  were  women  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  unreasonable  to  say  that  there  are  64  between 
the  ages  of  12  and  20  2 — A.  I  should  say  not ;  although  I  did  not  pay 
any  attention  to  them. 

Q.  Then  if  that  would  not  be  unreasonable  that  would  leave  200  who 
could  vote  ? — A.  I  never  looked  to  see  after  them  in  that  regard  ;  I 
think,  though,  to  assume  that  would  not  be  unreasonable. 

Q.  That  would  leave  200  males  over  20  years  of  age,  or  about  that  f — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  H.  W.  MENDENHALL. 


H.  W.  Mendenhall  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Gil  airman  : 

c/ 

Question.  Where  is  your  residence  f — Answer.  Washington  City. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  resided  here  ? — A.  Three  years. 

Q.  Where  did  you  live  before  you  came  here  ? — A.  In  Indiana. 

Q.  Whereabouts  2 — A.  The  last  four  years  I  lived  at  Indianapolis. 

Q.  Where  did  you  live  before  then  t — A.  In  Richmond. 

Q.  Bent  County  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  your,  business  in  Indianapolis  ? — .V.  Bart  of  the  time 
keeping  books  for  a  wholesale  house,  and  part  of  the  time  I  was  in  the 
insurance  business. 

Q.  What  are  you  doing  now  ? — A.  I  am  a  clerk  in  the  Treasury  De¬ 
partment. 

Q.  What  department  of  it? — A.  In  the  revenue  marine  department. 

Q.  In  what  grade  ? — A.  First  class  clerkship. 

Q.  At  what  pay  ? — A.  Twelve  hundred  dollars. 

Q.  I  saw  your  name  attached  here  as  a  member  of  the  board  of  audit 
— did  you  hear  it  read  ? — A.  I  did  not  get  in  in  time. 

Q.  it  is  a  paper  appealing  to  the  people  of  the  North  for  aid  and  sym¬ 
pathy  ? — A.  lres,  sir.  I  am  knowing  of  it. 

Q.  You  were  familiar  with  it  before  it  was  brought  out  here ! — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  read  it  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  read  any  part  of  it ! — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  did  2 — A.  Mr.  Adams. 

Q.  Did  you  see  it  before  it  was  published  ? — xV.  No,  sir  j  Air.  Adams 
told  me  about  it  and  asked  me  to  read  it,  and  I  said  I  was  busy  at  the 
time  and  did  not  do  it. 

Q.  Did  he  ask  you  to  put  your  name  to  it  2 — A.  As  a  member  of  the 
committee  ? 

Q.  Did  he  in  any  capacity  l — A.  I  don’t  remember  whether  it  was 
Adams  or  Wall  that  asked,  and  I  replied  that  I  did  not  care. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


81 


Q  Then  you  knew  this  paper  was  circulating  with  your  name  at¬ 
tached  to  it  for  sometime  past? — A.  I  knew  it  when  he  handed  me  one. 

Q.  It  is  dated  November  15,  1879,  at  934  P  street? — A.  It  was  dated 
then  but  was  not  printed  until  the  1st  of  December.  That  is  my  im¬ 
pression. 

Q.  Has  the  Emigrant  Aid  Society  rooms  at  934  F  street  ? — A.  No, 
sir;  it  had  one  then  up  stairs,  but  lias  moved  since. 

Q.  Where  is  it  now  ? — A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q,  Did  you  go  up  to  that  room  you  had  up  there? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  has  the  books  and  records  of  that  society  ?— A.  1  don’t  know 
anything  about  it. 

Q.  Did  you  know  Mr.  Fearing  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  Mr.  Adams  some  two 
or  three  weeks  ago  concluded  to  go  to  Washington  Territory  and  re¬ 
signed  as  secretary  and  Mr.  Fearing  was  appointed  as  secretary  in  his 
place. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  the  books  and  papers  of  the  society  ? — A.  No 
sir. 

Q.  Never  seen  any  of  them  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  letters  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  1  have  seen  two  ; 
Mr.  Adams  showed  me  two  from  Mr.  Langsdale. 

Q.  The  editor  of  the  Greencastle  Banner  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  writing  about? — A.  That  he  could  provide  employ¬ 
ment  for  a  large  number  of  emigrants. 

Q.  Did  he  state  the  number? — A.  lteally  I  don’t  recollect,  but  he  said 
he  had  a  large  number  of  places  for  hands  upon  the  farms. 

Q.  You  are  an  Indianian  yourself,  and  Greencastle  is  in  Putnam 
County,  is  it  not? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  is  that  county  there  settled  up  and  supplied  as  to  laborers? 
— A.  I  was  not  there  but  once  in  my  life,  and  I  do  not  know  anything 
about  the  county. 

•J 

Q.  You  belong  to  the  old  Mendenhall  family  in  Wayne,  do  you  not? 
— A.  Yres,  sir;  my  father  lived  there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  how  it  is  furnished  with  labor  ? — A.  I 
know  nothing  of  its  statistics  at  all. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Lmgsdale  state  anything  as  to  other  counties? — A.  I 
do  not  think  he  said  anything,  except  that  if  the  emigrants  were  here  to 
send  them  there. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  an  emigration  aid  society  there  at  Green¬ 
castle  ? — A.  Nothing,  whatever. 

Q.  What  at  Indianapolis? — A.  Nothing,  except  what  I  saw  in  the 
Journal  a  week  ago,  that  the  colored  people  had  a  meeting  to  establish 
an  aid  society  and  help  the  people  coming  there  to  that  State. 

Q.  That  was  the  colored  people? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  General  Straight? — A.  Yes,  sir:  but  only  by  reputa¬ 


tion. 

Q.  He  has  the  reputation  of  being  a  white  man,  has  he  not  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  and  has  a  very  tine  business,  1  believe. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Dudley — is  he  a  white  man  ? — A.  He  is  indeed 
in  a  good  many  ways. 

Q.  And  the  editor  of  the  Indianapolis  Journal,  Mr.  Walker,  boasts  being 
a  white  man,  does  he  not  ! — A.  You  speak  of  Air.  Martindale,  do  you 
not  ? 

Q.  I  speak  of  Mr.  Walker,  his  writing  man. — A.  I  do  not  know  him. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  anything  about  their  employing  negroes  on  their 
paper? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  take  the  Journal? — A.  I  do. 

6  EX 


82 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Do  you  read  it  ? — A.  Occasionally. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  Mr.  Langsdale’s  paper? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  seen 
two  copies  of  it,  I  think. 

Q.  Mr.  Langsdale  is  the  postmaster  at  Greencastle  ? — A.  I  do  not 
know  that. 

Q.  He  is  a  leading  Republican,  is  he  not? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  should 
judge  so  from  his  paper. 

Q.  And  from  the  remarks  he  made? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  often  did  this  society  meet  with  which  you  were  connected  ? — 
A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  but  I  think  four  times  I  have  been  there. 

Q.  Be  good  enough  to  tell  us  what  was  transacted  ? — A.  I  think 
about  a  year  ago,  about  the  time  of  the  first  landing  of  emigrants  in 
Saint  Louis,  Mr.  Adams  came  to  me.  I  was  in  the  Treasury  at  the 
time,  and  he  said  he  was  going  to  have  a  meeting  at  his  house  to  aid 
the  emigrants  in  Saint  Louis,  and  asked  me  if  I  would  meet  with  them, 
and  I  said  yes.  I  went  there  and  met  with  nine  or  ten  persons  who 
were  there  at  the  meeting.  They  were  all  strangers  to  me  except  Mr. 
Wall  and  Mr.  Adams,  and  Mr.  Fearing,  I  think,  was  there  too. 

Q.  Then  the  first  meeting  of  your  society  was  on  the  occasion  of  the 
arrival  of  a  large  number  of  Southern  negro  emigrants  at  Saint  Louis  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  the  first  meeting. 

Q.  Was  Mr.  (Jtey  present  at  that  meeting? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Otey? — A.  No,  sir;  I  didn’t  know  him  until 
after  the  meeting,  when  I  learned  his  name. 

Q.  You  know  him  now,  don’t  you? — A.  Yes,  sir;  there  was  a  gentle¬ 
man  here  this  morning  that  I  took  to  be  him. 

Q.  He  was  there  at  that  meeting? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  was  there  at  that 
meeting. 

Q.  When  was  the  next  meeting  held  ? — A.  Really  I  do  not  recollect. 

Q.  AY  here  was  the  next  meeting? — A.  AYe  were  assembled  at  the  same 
place. 

Q.  Was  that  Adams’s  house? — A.  Yes,  sir;  at  Adams’s  house. 

Q.  About  what  time  was  this  meeting  held? — A.  In  point  of  date,  I 
think,  about  one  year  ago,  and  about  one  week  or  ten  days  after  the 
emigrants  arrived  in  Saint  Louis;  it  was  in  cold  weather,  I  think. 

Q.  Y^ou  met  afterwards,  about  how  long  afterwards? — A.  I  cannot 
tell. 

Q.  Can’t  you  approximate  it  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  it  was  three  or  four  weeks. 

Q.  When  did  you  have  your  last  meeting? — A.  The  last  meeting  was 
some  time  in  the  latter  part  of  the  summer. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  meet  Otey  more  than  once  at  one  of  these  meetings? 
— A.  I  think  that  was  one  only  one  he  attended. 

Q,  You  have  been  favorable  to  placingYhese  people  in  Indiana? — A. 
I  have  been  in  favor  of  putting  them  in  every  State  we  could. 

Q.  I  did  not  ask  you  that;  I  said  Indiana. — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  been 
in  favor  of  sending  them  to  Indiana  if  they  could  get  employment  there. 

Q.  You  advocated  that  disposition  of  them? — A.  Yres,  sir;  in  one 
sense  of  the  word,  I  did. 

Q.  You  spoke  in  the  meeting  ? — A.  I  spoke  that  night. 

Q.  That  was  the  first  meeting,  you  say  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  do  not  know 
that  I  spoke  at  that  meeting  about  Indiana,  but  some  one  asked  my 
opinion  of  the  matter,  and  I  said  that  the  matter  was  a  new  one  to  me, 
but  I  thought  there  was  going  to  be  a  very  extensive  number  of  people 
who  were  going  to  leave  the  Southern  States  and  take  up  their  residence 
in  the  North  and  West. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  in  the  South? — A.  No,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  83 

Q.  And  you  knew  nothing  of  the  condition  of  the  people  there?— A. 
No,  sir  ;  except  what  is  a  part  of  the  history  of  the  country. 

Q.  That  is,  what  you  have  read  in  the  newspapers  ? — A.  I  have  read 
something  in  the  newspapers,  and  I  generally  read  and  believe  what  I 
see  in  a  newspaper,  if  it  is  a  Republican  newspaper. 

Q.  What  kind  of  a  newspaper  did  you  read  it  in  ? — A.  I  only  take 
the  best  papers. 

Q.  Do  you  read  any  Democratic  paper  l — A.  I  do  not  know  that  I  do 
particularly,  but  I  have  seen  some  things  from  the  Southern  Okalona 
States. 

Q.  But  you  believe  all  that  you  read  in  a  Republican  paper? _ A. 

Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  I  would. 

Q.  Then  you  read  something  in  these  newspapers  to  the  effect  that 
the  negroes  were  in  bad  condition  ? — A.  lres,  sir;  I  think  the  report  I 
read  was  in  a  Republican  paper. 

Q.  Didn't  you  state  in  your  speech  that  the  negroes  would  do  better 
by  going  to  Indiana? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  inducement  did  you  state  would  be  held  out  to  them  in  In¬ 
diana? — A.  None. 

Q.  Did  you  say  anything  on  the  subject  ? — A.  I  had  never  seen  or 
heard  at  that  time  anything  about  people  coming  from  the  South  to  In¬ 
diana. 

Q.  Did  you  say  anything  about  it  yourself  in  your  speech  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir,  I  did. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  ? — A.  I  will  tell  you  exactly  ;  or  rather  give  you 
the  substance,  as  I  cannot  tell  the  language  precisely.  I  stated  that 
their  persecution  was  as  much  as  they  could  bear,  and  that  if  Indiana 
could  offer  inducements  to  these  people  I  felt  like  a  great  number  of 
them  would  go  there:  and  I  stick  right  there  now. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  state  in  your  speech  that  as  these  negroes  were  going 
to  emigrate  you  would  like  to  have  a  large  number  of  them  come  to  In¬ 
diana? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  knew  that  a  great  number  of  them,  if  not  all, 
voted  the  Republican  ticket,  and  I  would  like  amazingly  to  see  them 
come  there,  just  the  same  as  you  to  see  the  Irish  coming  in  there  be¬ 
cause  they  generally  vote  the  Democratic  ticket. 

Q.  A"ou  were  in  favor  of  their  going  there  to  vote? — A.  AYs,  sir;  I 
was. 

Q.  Are  you  a  Quaker? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  of  anti-slavery  antecedents  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  my  father  had  two 
or  three  brothers  who  owned  slaves. 

Q.  A'our  father  emigrated  to  North  Carolina,  did  he  not  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  you  stated  this  thing  in  the  meeting,  and  Otey  was  there; 
have  you  talked  with  him  since  on  that  point  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  that 
we  have  even  met  together,  and  certainly  not  talked  over  this  matter. 

Q.  Arou  are  a  pretty  strong  Republican  and  somewhat  of  a  politician  ? 
— A.  No,  sir  ;  I  am  not  a  politician.  I  have  talked  over  this  matter  fre¬ 
quently,  but  our  society  in  no  case  has  done  anything  to  further  the 
matter.  I  stated  my  opinion  simply,  but  no  action  was  taken  on  it. 
When  I  said  this  the  society  was  not  organized,  but  we  were  staying 
talking  the  matter  over.  Mr.  Wall  was  then  elected  president,  and  31  r. 
Adams  secretary. 

Q.  You  wish  to  be  understood,  then,  that  you  expressed  your  inde¬ 
pendent  views? — A.  Yes,  sir;  those  views  are  mine. 

Q,  Have  .you  explained  them  to  any  of  your  friends  in  Indiana  ? — A. 
Not  politically.. 

Q.  Will  you  answer  the  questions? — A.  I  have. 


84 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Will  you  tell  us  who  they  were,  unless  they  are  covered  by  private 
reasons? — A.  They  were  private  matters.  I  have  bad  nothing  to  say 
about  this  emigrant  matter  in  a  particularly  public  way. 

Q.  Have  you  received  letters  about  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  From  what  points  ? — A,  Indianapolis. 

Q.  Have  you  received  them  from  any  other  points  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  have  no  reasons  for  not  doing  so,  give  the  names  of  your 
correspondents. — A.  There  is  United  States  marshal  Dudley  and  Doc¬ 
tor — I  think  a  colored  man — Dr.  Elbert.  I  just  had  one  postal  card 
from  him. 

Q.  What  degree  of  approval  do  you  understand  this  emigrant  move¬ 
ment  is  meeting  with  from  those  prominent  men  like  Dudley? — A.  I  do 
not  know.  I  had  no  information  from  him  on  the  subject. 

Q.  Well,  what  is  your  position  on  it,  if  you  can  tell  it? — A.  He  told 
me,  and  I  am  sorry  I  did  not  preserve  his  letter,  that  as  a  political 
movement  the  Republican  party  of  Indiana  didn’t  approve  of  it. 

Q.  Did  he  seem  to  think  he  would  like  to  have  them  there  to  vote  us 
down  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  he  did. 

Q.  Then  he  disclaimed  the  act,  but  was  willing  to  take  the  fruits? — 
A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  about  it. 

Q.  Are  those  the  only  parties  who  have  written  to  you  from  Indian¬ 
apolis  ? — A.  They  are  the  only  ones  I  recollect. 

Q.  And  if  I  understood  you,  Mr.  Dudley,  who  is  United  States 
marshal,  while  disclaiming  it  as  an  act  of  the  Republican  party,  said 
he  would  be  glad  to  have  them  there  as  Republican  voters? — A.  No, 
sir  ;  not  exactly  in  that  way. 

Q.  Define,  then,  what  he  said. — A.  He  said  that  if  employment  could 
be  got  for  them  he  would  be  glad  to  see  them  come  into  tfie  States,  but 
the  Republicans  as  a  party  could  have  nothing  to  do  with  it. 

Q.  I  want  you  to  answer  the  question  directly  whether  United  States 
Marshal  Dudley  approved  or  disapproved  of  this  emigration  to  Indiana? 
— A.  As  I  stated  to  you  before,  that  is  as  near  as  [  can  get  at  the  sub¬ 
stance  of  the  letter ;  that  is,  that  he  disclaimed  the  movement  for  the 
Republican  party,  but  if  employment  could  be  gotten  for  them  he  would 
be  glad  to  have  them  there.  Indiana  has  millions  of  acres  of  laud,  and 
I  think  her  people  would  be  glad  to  have  them  there. 

Q.  I  thought  you  stated  you  were  ignorant  of  the  statistics  of  the 
State  ? — A.  I  know  enough  to  know  that. 

Q.  Where  is  any  of  that  million  of  acres  that  the  people  of  Indiana 
would  be  glad  to  have  these  negroes  settled  on  ? — A.  There  are  some  in 
Stark  County. 

Q.  Are  you,  as  a  member  of  this  emigrant  society,  to  send  emigrants 
to  Stark  County? — A.  No,  sir;  not  particularly  to  Stark  County;  I 
sent  one  there. 

Q.  You  are  a  member  of  the  auditing  committee  of  that  concern  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  sent  any  of  these  people  to  Shelby  County  ? — A.  No. 
sir. 

Q.  Have  you  sent  any  to  Marion  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  that  is  around  Indian¬ 
apolis;  a  good  many  have  gone  around  there ;  there  is  a  good  deal  of 
wild  lands  about  there. 

Q.  What  good  will  it  do  a  negro  to  get  him  a  home  around  Indian¬ 
apolis  ? — A.  Why,  sir,  I  see  farms  myself  there  most  of  them  cut  up  and 
included  into  the  city  limits. 

Q.  You  say  there  are  millions  ot  acres  of  wild  land  in  Indiana.  Do - 
you  know  any  government  lands  that  are  not  taken  up  there  at  $1.25 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  85 


an  acre  t — A.  No,  sir  ;  and  I  do  not  mean  wild  lands  altogether  ;  I  mean 
improved  lands. 

Q.  Where  do  you  know  of  any  improved  lands  in  Indiana  that  the 
negroes  can  get? — A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Have  you  been  in  Northern  Indiana? — A.  Only  to  pass  over  it  in 
going  to  Chicago. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  in  Lake  County? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Saint  Joe? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Marshall? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Elkhart? — A.  No,  sir  ;  but  I  know  that  is  a  fine  agricultural 
region  and  well  settled  up. 

Q.  Who  else  have  you  known  to  have  anything  to  do  with  this  emi¬ 
grant  movement  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  of  anybody  specially.  You  appear 
to  make  me  out  as  though  I  was  very  active  in  this  movement,  which 
is  not  the  case. 

Q.  No,  sir,  I  have  no  point  to  make  on  you.  I  think  you  have  testi¬ 
fied  quite  candidly.  I  want  the  facts,  and  I  advise  you  in  advance  that 
those  who  are  supporting  this  emigration  will  have  to  answer  for  it 
hereafter  when  these  people  get  their  eyes  opened  to  the  great  iniquity 
that  has  been  practiced  upon  them  ;  I  want  to  know  the  facts  simply 
and  put  them  on  record,  and  this  committee  is  appointed  to  find  out  the 
facts  on  this  very  important  subject. 

The  Witness.  You  know  the  charge  has  been  made  publicly  that  it 
was  a  political  movement.  It  has  been  made  by  Governor  Hendricks 
in  his  speech  and  by  others. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  I  know  that.  Now,  then,  tell  me,  Mr.  Mendenhall,  with  whom  you 
have  talked  or  with  whom  you  have  communicated  regarding  this  move¬ 
ment? — A.  I  have  communicated  with  those  whom  I  have  mentioned. 
I  never  communicated  directly  with  Elbert,  but  he  wrote  tome;  he 
wrote  me  a  postal  card. 

Q.  Go  on,  now,  and  tell  us  all  you  know  about  this  emigration  ;  who 
started  it,  and  what  caused  it. — A.  Well,  sir,  about  the  first  of  October 
[  was  called  out  of  my  room  at  the  Treasury  and  introduced  to  Mr. 
Perry  and  Mr.  Williams.  That  was  the  first  time  that  I  knew  that  any¬ 
body  was  going  from  North  Carolina  to  the  West.  They  had  with  them 
a  paper  containing  one  hundred  and  sixty  names,  most  of  whom  were 
heads  of  families  who  wanted  to  leave  North  Carolina  and  go  somewhere 
where  they  could  be  in  a  better  condition.  They  had  come  here  in  ad¬ 
vance  to  get  some  information  as  to  railroads  and  fares,  and  were  going 
to  wait  here  a  week  or  ten  days  for  money.  Their  idea  then  was,  I 
believe,  to  go  to  Kansas.  I  said  to  them,  “  Gentlemen,  there  are  a  great 
many  colored  people  going  to  Kansas  from  Louisiana  and  Mississippi, 
and  my  opinion  is  that  some  of ‘them  will  suffer.'7  I  said,  “There  are 
other  States  where  you  can  get  to  much  cheaper,  and  I  believe  fare  bet¬ 
ter.77  I  mentioned  Ohio,  Indiana,  and  Illinois,  all  of  which  were  nearer 
to  these  people  than  Kansas,  and  that  they  could  get  there  much  cheaper, 
and  I  thought  fare  better  than  they  would  do  in  Kansas  where  so  many 
had  preceded  them.  They  said  they  had  thought  of  going  nowhere  else 
than  to  Kansas,  and  that  that  was  where  their  company  had  sent  them. 
They  reported  that  they  were  reduced  to  starvation  down  there  in  the 
South,  and  some  of  them  were  paid  only  forty  and  sixty  cents  a  day  for 
their  labor  in  store  orders  and  all  that. 

Q.  This  was  Perry  and  Williams  who  told  you  this  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  did  they  say  they  got  a  month  ! — A.  From  four  to  six 


86 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


dollars  a  mouth.  They  said  that  was  the  best  they  could  do,  and  as 
they  were  starving  they  had  determined  to  go  where  they  could  do  bet¬ 
ter  if  possible,  and  I  suggested  to  them  to  go  to  Indiana.  I  said  to  them 
that  it  was  not  out  of  their  way,  and  while  it  may  cost  a  little  more  to 
stop  there  you  may  make  money  out  of  it.  They  said,  after  studying 
over  the  matter,  they  thought  they  would  do  it,  and  I  wrote  to  Judge 
Martindale  and  asked  if  they  could  be  furnished  with  employment  if 
they  stopped  there.  I  heard  nothing  from  him,  and  these  men  were  still 
here  a  week  or  ten  days  after.  Then  I  got  a  postal  card  signed  by  El¬ 
bert,  who  stated  that  Judge  Martindale  had  asked  him  to  reply  to  me. 
He  simply  said  to  tell  these  gentlemen  to  come  to  Indianapolis,  and  I 
did  so. 

Q.  Repeat  the  substance  of  what  Elbert  wrote  to  you. — A.  lie  said 
that  Judge  Martindale  had  mentioned  the  matter  to  him  and  handed 
him  my  letter,  and  asked  him  to  reply  to  it;  and  he  sent  a  postal  card 
telling  me  to  send  these  two  men  to  meet  him  in  Indianapolis.  They 
went  out  there,  and  in  a  week  or  ten  days  returned.  I  was  absent  at 
the  time,  but  I  learned  that  they  had  been  to  Indiana  and  been  to 
Greencastle.  They  said  that  they  had  seen  Langsdale  and  spoke  with 
him,  and  that  several  farmers  had  come  and  talked  to  them,  and  said 
they  wanted  farmers  on  their  farms.  These  were  all  farmers,  I  believe, 
who  went  to  Indiana,  and  I  was  informed  that  in  about,  well,  a  few 
days,  they  returned  with  about  fifty  emigrants.  They  went  with  them 
to  Indiana,  and  I  understood  they  had  got  employment  in  the  neighbor¬ 
hood  and  around  Greencastle. 

Q.  Then,  that  was  the  beginning  of  the  tide  that  has  struck  Indi¬ 
ana? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  begun  as  I  have  stated. 

Q.  And  you  were  the  directing  agent  for  the  movement  ? — A.  It  was 
with  me  just  as  I  have  stated. 

Q.  How  many  men  did  Perry  and  Williams  say  they  would  deposit 
in  Indiana? — A.  I  do  not  recollect  what  they  said.  I  have  not  seen 
Williams,  I  do  not  think,  since;  certainly  not  since  I  came  down  to  the 
depot  and  saw  these  emigrants. 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  Judge  Martindale  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  him? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him  about  these  emigrants  ? — 
A.  No,  sir.  I  saw  him  just  a  little  while  in  the  Ebbitt  House.  I  also 
had  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Cowgill. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  conversation  with  any  of  the  members  of  Con¬ 
gress  from  Indiana  this  winter? — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  had  a  conversation 
with  nobody  but  Dudley,  I  think. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Dudley  here? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  ? — A.  A  few  days  ago. 

Q.  And  had  talk  with  him? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  say  he  still  wanted  these  darkies,  and  that  he  was  still  of 
the  opinion  that  the  Republican  party  should  take  no  interest  in  it  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  he  was  of  the  same  opinion,  that  it  should  take  no  interest 
in  it  except  as  the  friends  of  the  colored  man ;  he  thought  that,  as  a 
party,  it  should  take  no  interest  in  the  coming  of  these  people  except 
as  their  friends  to  aid  them  when  they  got  there. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  What  did  he  say  about  the  condition  of  those  who  were  there  ? — 
A.  He  said  they  are  suffering,  and  the  citizens  had  raised  money  and 
sent  them  on  to  Greencastle. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


87 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  number  of  those  who  have  gone  to  Greencastle  ? 
— A.  No,  sir;  I  know  that  is  the  place  they  strike  first  after  leaving 
Indianapolis. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  there  has  been  great  suffering  there  among 
them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  read  that  in  the  Journal. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  there  has  been  a  general  appeal  to  the  people  to 
help  them? — A.  Well,  yes,  sir.  I  am  mistaken,  though,  about  the  Jour¬ 
nal;  it  was  in  the  Indianapolis  Leader  that  I  saw  the  statement  of  their 
suffering. 

Q.  That  is  the  colored  people’s  paper  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  appealing 
to  take  provisoes  to  them  just  as  done  here  in  Washington  City. 

Q.  Have  you  only  seen  that  one  appeal? — A.  That  is  the  only  one  I 
recollect. 

Q.  Have  you  conversed  with  any  members  of  Congress  this  winter 
about  this  emigration? — A.  I  conversed  with  one  or  two,  and  got  such 
poor  encouragement  from  them  that  I  quit. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  converse  with? — A.  I  conversed  with  Mr.  Cowgill, 
but  he  said  he  knew  nothing  about  it,  aud  paid  no  attention  to  it. 

Q.  Didn’t  he  say  he  didn’t  think  it  a  good  thing  for  the  people,  and 
didn’t  believe  in  it? — xV.  Yb?s,  sir;  I  heard  him  say  that;  but  he  said 
he  believed  ten  thousand  industrious  people  could  find  employment 
there  if  they  got  there,  and  could  support  themselves. 

Q.  Then  he  seemed  in  favor  of  their  going  ? — A.  No,  sir,  I  think  not; 
I  have  not  seen  him  since  the  regular  session  commenced,  however. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  with  General  Brown  ? — A.  l"es,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  the  General  think? — A.  He  had  nothing  to  say  on  the 
subject. 

Q.  He  was  non-committal,  was  he?  He  was  not  anxious  for  it,  and 
not  particularly  against  it? — A.  I  think  if  he  had  been  in  favor  of  it 
he  would  have  said  something. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  ? — A.  He  said  it  was  a  matter  he  had  not  thought 
anything  about. 

Q.  What  number  did  he  think  could  get  employment  there  ? — xA.  He 
didn’t  state. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  members  here  that  you  have  talked  with  ?— A. 
No,  sir  ;  not  that  I  recollect. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  Langsdale’s  paper  recently  ? — A.  I  have  seen  copies 
recently ;  that  is,  within  two  months. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  articles  he  wrote  as  to  the  use  that  could  be  made 
of  these  negroes  as  voters  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  never  saw  anything  of  the 
kind  in  those  two  papers;  one  of  the  papers  was  seut  to  the  secretary 
of  the  society  that  had  the  statement  in  it  made  by  those  colored  people 
as  to  how  they  were  doing,  and  that  they  would  never  go  back  to  North 
Carolina. 

Q.  Ili  your  opinion,  from  your  knowledge  and  observation  of  this 
matter,  and  as  a  member  of  this  emigration  society,  how  many  negroes 
do  you  think  should  be  transported  from  the  South  to  that  State  in 
order  to  change  it  from  a  Democratic  to  a  Republican  State  ! — A.  I  have 
no  idea  at  all  to  express  on  that  subject.  I  kuow  there  are  immense 
coal  mines  undeveloped  in  that  State  where  these  people  might  be  em¬ 
ployed  at  good  prices  and  become  good  citizens.  As  to  the  demand  lor 
labor  there  1  do  not  know  whether  it  was  satisfied  or  not.  As  to  the 
numbers  needed  in  the  event  this  were  a  political  movement,  that  would 
depend  largely  on  circumstances. 

Q.  You  have  stated  that  with  commendable  frankness.  Now,  I  want 


88 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


to  ask  you  how  far  this  emigration  ought  to  extend  for  the  benefit  of 
the  colored  race  and  the  white  race  both  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  that 
any  distinction  ought  to  be  made.  If  there  is  any  colored  man  in  the 
South  that  does  not  like  his  place  of  residence  he  ought  to  go  away 
from  it. 

Q.  Aud  you  think  if  ten  thousand  colored  men  want  to  go  to  the 
North  and  the  railroads  will  help  them,  there  is  no  objection  to  it? — A. 
Yes;  I  think  there  would  be  objections  to  that.  There  will  always  be 
objections  to  people  being  put  on  the  State  as  paupers. 

Q.  I  mean  is  there  any  limit,  in  your  opinion,  where  this  emigration 
ought  to  stop  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  there  would  be  a  limit  in  Indiana 
just  as  soon  as  they  would  be  deprived  of  work.  If  they  cannot  live 
in  the  North  they  should  go  somewhere  else  ;  if  they  cannot  live  in  the 
South  they  should  seek  a  better  home.  If  they  have  friends  in  the 
South  and  are  contented,  thev  should  remain. 

Q.  But  you  think  they  cannot  get  their  rights  and  protection  in  the 
South  ? — A.  From  what  I  have  seen  in  the  newspapers  I  should  think 
they  could  not. 

Q.  But  those  who  have  tried  to  better  themselves  are  suffering  and 
have  to  be  relieved  by  charity  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  heard  nothing  from  them,  have  you,  as  to  their  doiug 
well,  except  what  you  have  seen  from  Perry  and  Williams? — A.  No, 
sir  ;  not  them  alone. 

Q.  Well,  from  any  others? — A.  No,  sir;  I  think  they  told  me  some¬ 
thing  of  it,  and  I  read  something  in  the  newspapers.  I  think  those  who 
have  gone  will  write  home  the  truth  about  their  condition  and  try  to 
induce  their  u  sisters  and  their  cousins  aud  their  aunts”  to  come  out. 

Q.  You  read  those  statements  in  the  paper,  you  say.  Was  it  the 
Greencastle  Banner? — A.  Yes,  sir;  there  were  statements  in  there, 
whether  true  or  false  I  do  not  know,  but  one  of  them  said  he  would  not 
go  back  to  North  Carolina  for  $500,  and  another  one  of  them  said  that 
he  had  employment,  a  good  home,  and  a  pig  and  a  cabin. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  You  never  read  anything  in  that  paper  on  the  otter  side,  did  you  ? 
— A.  No,  sir;  sometimes  I  pick  up  a  Democratic  paper  and  read  some¬ 
thing  in  there,  but  I  do  not  waste  money  on  them.  I  do  not  say  that 
all  I  read  in  a  Republican  paper  is  true;  some  things  in  the  Republican 
papers  come  from  Democratic  sources.  I  read  something  in  a  paper  of 
what  the  Wilmington  Post  had  copied,  in  Elizabeth  City. 

Q.  The  Wilmington  Post,- then,  testified  on  the  subject? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  a  report  of  a  woman  named  Maria  Bryan,  who  was 
begging  her  way  back,  and  what  she  said  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Yrou  will  never  see  it  either,  if  you  do  not  read  the  Democratic 
newspapers. — A.  I  think  I  would  read  the  paper,  governor,  if  you  pub¬ 
lished  it. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  Are  you  the  gentleman  who  was  mentioned  by  Mr.  O’Hara  when 
he  stated  that  some  one  member  of  the  society  left  it  on  account  of  the 
political  character  which  was  sought  to  be  given  to  this  movement  ? — 
A.  Mr.  O’Hara  said  something  about  me,  I  believe. 

Q.  Had  you  aud  Mr.  Otey  any  conversation  iu  regard  to  this  emigra¬ 
tion  movement  and  its  political  bearings? — A.  I  never  spoke  to  him  un¬ 
til  after  the  meeting  of  that  night. 

Senator  Vance.  I  understood  it  was  a  speech  that  you  made  there. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


89 


The  Witness.  No,  sir;  there  were  no  speeches  made;  some  one 
asked  my  opinion,  and  I  gave  it. 

Q.  (By  Senator  Blair.)  ,Was  Mr.  Otey  connected  with  that  society  ?' 
— A.  No,  sir  ;  he  was  there  that  night,  but  I  never  saw  him  any  more, 
and  I  understood  he  was  opposed  to  the  exodus  all  the  time. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  You  stated  that  you  got  your  information  from  newspaper  reports 
about  the  bad  treatment  of  the  colored  race  in  the  South.  Have  you 
ever  read  any  of  the  Congressional  reports  on  that  subject? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  I  have  read  considerable.  I  have  also  read  some  of  the  Teller 
report. 

Q.  Did  that  assist  you  any  in  the  way  of  information? — A.  It  con¬ 
firmed  what  I  knew  and  had  heard  before. 

Q.  You  know  there  are  a  number  of  volumes  of  Congressional  re¬ 
ports  upon  that  subject? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  you  corresponded  with  Martindale  and  Elbert  on  this 
subject? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  say  anything  to  Martindale  about  any  political  motive 
you  had  in  assisting  these  emigrants? — A.  I  think  I  wrote  him  as 
short  a  note  as  possible,  as  I  was  in  a  hurry.  I  said  that  these  men 
were  here  and  I  thought  Indiana  was  a  better  State  for  them  to  take 
their  people  to  than  to  Kansas,'  and  I  asked  him  how  they  could  get  to 
Indiana,  provided  they  could  get  employment;  I  asked  him  what  he 
thought  about  it. 

Q.  And  you  say  he  never  answered  that  note? — A.  He  paid  no  at¬ 
tention  to  it. 

Q.  You  heard  from  it  afterwards,  though  ? — A.  Yes,  I  heard  from 
Mr.  Elbert;  he  said  that  Judge  Martindale  had  given  him  my  letter 
and  asked  him  to  reply. 

Q.  You  say  that  Mr.  Dudley  said  he  would  like  to  see  them  come  to 
the  State,  but  the  Republican  party  could  have  nothing  to  do  with  it  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  the  expression  of  this  personal  feeling  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  meant  to  give  you  notice  that  the  Republican  party 
would  not  participate  in  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  so  understood  it. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  the  suffering  of  the  colored  people  who  had  arrived 
in  Indiana;  what  do  jou  know  about  that? — A.  1  just  say  that  I  saw 
the  notice  in  the  colored  paper  there  at  Indianapolis  appealing  for  help 
for  these  emigrants  just  as  they  did  when  they  were  here. 

Q.  That  is  to  say,  they  had  reached  there  without  food  or  money  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  they  were  asking  help,  asking  the  colored  people,  I 
think,  and  calling  upon  their  churches  to  take  care  of  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  movement  on  the  part  of  active  Republicans 
to  colonize  these  negroes  for  political  purposes? — A.  No,  sir;  I  never 
heard  of  any. 

On  motion,  committee  adjourned  to  Monday,  10.30  o’clock  a.m.,  Jan¬ 
uary  20,  1880. 


FIFTH  DAY. 

Washinton,  Monday ,  January  20 — 10.30  a.  m. 

The  committee  met  pursuant  to  its  orderof  adjournment  and  renewed 
the  taking  of  testimony.  Present — the  chairman  and  all  members  ol 
the  committee. 


90 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


The  taking  of  testimony  was  resumed,  as  follows  : 

LETTERS  TO  EMIGRANT  AID  SOOETY. 


O.  S.  B.  Wall  appeared  and  presented  to  the  committee  from  the 
files  of  the  National  Emigrant  Aid  Society,  as  per  previous  order  of  the 
chairman,  the  following  letters  and  correspondence  : 


I. 


Dear  Sir  I  would  like  some  information  in  regard  to  obtaining  a  colored  man  to 
work  for  me.  I  want  a  young  single  man  not  under  20  or  over  35  years  A  good 
Horseman  or  groom  active  industrious  &  honest 
Please  give  me  what  light  you  can  aud  amount  of  wages  expected 
I  enclose  Stamp. 

Resp’t 


C.  J.  PHILLIPS 


II. 


Sugar  Grove  Penna 


Allegeny  Co.  Ceres  X.  Y.  Jan  5th  1880 


Joshua  L.  Bailey  Esq. 

Dear  Sir  :  I  saw  your  name  in  N.  Y.  Weekly  Witness  in  connection  with  the“  South¬ 
ern  Exodus  ”  helpers  I  wish  to  know  if  we  can  get  four  or  dve  good  colored  women 
for  general  housework.  I  want  one  and  some  of  my  neighbors  want  one  each 
Would  give  them  good  homes  at  good  wages  in  steady  places  could  arrange  to  pay 
their  fare  here  Want  none  but  honest  and  steady  ones.  Will  you  be  so  kind  as  to 
inform  me  if  you  can  help  us  in  the  matter. 

I  think  I  could  find  good  families  who  would  take  fifty  or  more  for  female  help  in 
the  line  of  general  housework  is  scarce  &  unreliable  here  They  appear  to  be  anxious 
to  get  away  from  the  South  and  here  is  a  good  place  for  a  large  number.  There  are 
a  good  many  colored  people  around  here  but  they  are  independent  have  homes  of 
their  own  &  do  not  work  out  much.  If  you  do  not  know  of  any  such  help  &  can 
give  me  the  address  of  some  one  who  does  please  do  so.  Hoping  to  hear  from  you 
soon  I  remain 

Yours  truly 

J.  P.  BROTHE  M.  D. 


III. 


August  1  1877. 

• 

We  the  People  of  the  Sesson  Cong,  jist  nr  hav  a  Strong  desier  to  Emagrant  to  Ivasas 
Land  where  we  can  hav  a  home.  Reason  &  why 

1  We  hav  not  our  rights  in  law 

2.  Labors  the  old  formare  masters  do  not  alow  us  any  thing  for  our  labor  only  in  or¬ 
ders  an  the  orders  are  Shave  from  10  cts  to  20  or  25  cts  on  the  dollar 

3  We  hav,  not  our  Right  in  the  Election  We  are  defrauded  by  our  formar  masters 

4  We  have  not  no  rug  to  make  a  honnis  an  homble  living 

5  thire  is  no  use  for  the  )Col(  to  go  to  law  after  thire  Right  not  on  out  of  50  Git  his 
Rights. 

6.  the  KuCluck  Rainges  in  the  own  ways  an  Rules. 

7.  We  want  to  Git  to  aland  Where  we  can  Vote  an  it  not  be  a  Crime  to  the  )Col.( 
Voters. 

8  Wages  is  very  low  wages  is  from  $5  to  G  0  and  $8  for  men 

9.  Woman  Wages  is  from  $1.00  to  $2  aud  $3.  the  hist  is  $4. 

10.  An  near  all  of  the  labors  hav  lamilys  to  tak  cear  of  an  many  orther  things  we 
could  mention,  but  by  the  help  of  God  we  intent  to  mak  a  efferd  to  mak  our  start  to 
Kansas  land  We  had  Rather  Sufer  an  befree.  than  to  sufer  an  be  intangele  by  such 
eufamious  degrades  that  are  Brought  upon  us 

11.  Wags  per  day  is  25  cts  an  30  cts  a  day  an  your  Boad  found. 

12.  Wags  per  day  45  cts  to  50  an  GO  cts  per  day  an  we  Boad  our  Selfs 

13.  one  Grate  Reason  why  we  want  to  get  away  so  Soon  we  do  not  want  our  Census 

taken  no  more  in  n.  c.  but  in  Kausas  or  in  Som  orther  Places  Where  we  will  do  as  well 

The  Emagrants  Reason 

REV  S.  HEATH 

( chur  Cham 
MOSES  HEATH 

(Sect 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 

Delagaie 


91 


Rev  A  W  Heath  man  of  lion  an  Good  Morial. 


Aug  ltli  1879  at  Kmstore 

Cim  Lencor  Co.  N.  C. 

an  if  any  man  wants  to  hear  from  A.  W.  Heath  he  will  answer  for  him  selfe  bv  the 
help  of  God. 

IV. 


Capt.  O.  S.  B.  Wall 


Indianapolis  Dec  the  1  1879 


Dare  Sier  I  arived  safteand  finde  the  meny  friendes  of  the  Collard  Emmergrantes 
at  worke  trying  to  provide  for  them  they  heave  all  got  Homes  that  are  heare  and 
wall  settesfide  thay  tel  me  that  wood  Not  gon  back  to  N.  C.  for  the  State  Mr  wall 
I  wrate  Home  for  sum  Money  to  Coum  to  wasington  in  your  care  please  to  lock  oute 
for  it.  I  am  very  sherte  I  think  I  will  bee  in  wasing  in  a  few  days  the  Committy 
meates  heare  to  night  to  tak  actieu  in  the  good  Coyes  thay  say  theare  not  going  to 
bil  a  fence  a  Ronnde  this  State  to  Cape  the  Coleud  people  frurn  Coming 
I  am  as  everes  yours  Respec’t  truley 

C  A  SCOTT 


V. 


Indianapolis  Dec  14  1879 

Mr  O.  S.  B  Wall 

Deare  Sier  I  heave  met  a  greate  meny  friendes  sens  I  arive  heare  I  heave  bin 
in  Cuunty  a  lange  waves  and  meate  with  suckses  I  will  bee  in  the  Citty  D.  C.  in  a 
few  dayes  please  luck  oute  for  my  Male  that  will  Coum  in  your  care  I  heave  so 
mutch  to  tel  you  when  I  coum  thane  an  a  taking  good  Care  of  those  Emmergrantes 
that  Coum  the  uther  day 

Yours  truley 

C  A  SCOTT. 


VI. 


Egbert  U  P.  R  R.  Jan.  loth,  1880. 


Mr  O.  S.  B  Wall 

Washington  D.  C. 

Dear  Sir:  My  wife  wrote  you  not  long  since  making  inquiry  for  a  colored  servant, 
Sc  in  your  reply  of  Dec.  27th  your  remark  that  while  you  have  men  Sc  women  that 
wish  homes  in  the  west,  you  have  not  a  dollar  in  your  Treasurary  to  send  any  am.  You 
also  suggest  that  we  advance  their  fare  A  retain  it  from  their  wages.  We  want  two 
girls  or  middle  aged  women,  What  can  they  be  sent  to  cheyenne  for,  Can  they  be 
sent  C.  O.  D.  I  suppose  you  have  arrangements  with  R.  R.  companies  which  you  can 
get  reduced  rates  We  have  no  acquaintance  in  Washington  Sc  would  prefer  to  pay 
their  fare  if  it  can  be  done  In  the  meantime  I  will  see  if  there  are  more  servants 
wanted  in  the  neighborhood  An  early  reply  is  desired 
Very  Respectful  Iv 

A.  MARTIN 


VII. 


Findlay,  Ohio,  Jan.  6th  1880. 

Freedmans  Eileaf  Association  Washington  D.  C. 

Please  let  me  know  the  proper  steps  to  be  taken,  in  regard  to  employing  Exodusts 
Emigrating  to  Our  Western  States,  what  they  can  be  hierd  per  month  Sec.  We  want 
good  farm  hands  both  male  Sc  female  Please  let  me  know  immediately 

ALEXANDER  MORRISON 

Address  Findlay  Hancock  Co.  Ohio. 


VIII. 

Washington  D.  C.,  Dec.,  13///,  1879. 

O.  S.  B  Wall  Esq. 

My  Dear  Sir  Can  I  have  the  pleasure  of  an  interview  with  you  on  Monday  morn¬ 
ing,  please  advise  me  and  oblige 
Yours  Truly 

D.  W.  JANOWITZ 

Passr.  Agl.  B  <$  ■  P  Depot. 


92 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


IX. 


Empire  City  Kansas  Dec.  30 th  1879. 

Dear  Sir  I  have  just  come  from  Arkansas  where  I  have  been  travelling  the  past 
two  years  and  have  had  an  opportunity  to  see  and  learn  the  condition  of  affairs  in 
that  State.  I  can  assure  the  real  State  of  the  colored  race  cannot  be  described  on 
paper,  the  oppression  and  intimidation  &  deception  practiced  upon  them  in  every 
conceivable  way  that  unscrupulous  men  can  invent.  I  can  give  many  instances  time 
and  place  if  necessary 
Yours  Truly 

A  C  KETCHMAN 
Late  Editor  South  Eastern  Desoh  3Io, 


X. 


Terre  Haute Ind. 

Mr.  Adams  Esq. 

See  Emigrant  aid  Society  Washington  D.  C. 

Dear  Sir.  I  am  Informed  that  you  are  Directly  Interested  In  furnishing  To  Emi¬ 
grants  all  Facts  necessary  to  enable  them  to  Select  Future  homes  Which  will  Prove  to 
them  Both  Satisfaction  and  Profitable.  In  this  connection  therefore  I  Desier  to  Place 
before  yon  Some  of  the  advantages  offered  by  the  State  of  Indiana  and  to  do  so  Would 
Properly  Requier  to  much  Space  of  a  Simple  Letter  I  can  therefore  Present  only  a 
few  of  the  main  advantages,  and  add  that  I  think  no  other  State  in  the  union  offers 
Greater  or  Better  opportunities  to  Industrus  Persous  Seeking  an  Honst  Livelihood  then 
this  State  We  are  Blessed  with  coal  Land  that  cannot  be  Excelled  by  any  which  Is 
known  as  the  Block  coal  our  miners  Get  from  90  cts.  to  one  Dollar  Per  Ton  and  good 
miners  can  make  from  $2.50  to  $4,00  Per  day  and  there  Is  a  greater  Demand  for  coal 
then  the  miners  are  able  to  Supply  within  the  last  few  days  I  have  had  applica¬ 
tions  for  at  Least  500  mines  and  at  one  mine  alone  200  men  can  Get  Work  and  whether 
they  have  had  any  experiance  or  not  if  they  are  willing  to  work  they  can  soon  learn 
all  that  Is  Required  again  there  never  was  Such  a  Demand  for  Farm  Hands  Farm¬ 
ing  is  all  the  go  In  this  State  as  we  have  Some  of  the  Finest  Lands  In  the  World 
Farmers  do  not  confin  themselves  to  Raising  any  one  thing  the  Cheaf  Products  are 
Wheat  Corn  oats  Rye  Barley  and  vegetables  of  all  kinds  as  for  Rasing  Stock  of  all 
kinds  never  was  Better  and  a  great  Deal  of  this  Land  can  be  Bought  on  Long  and  Easy 
Terms  or  can  be  gotten  at  on  the  Shers  and  Farm  hands  Get  from  $15  to  $20  Per 
month  and  Board  I  will  Repeat  it  again  there  never  was  such  a  Demand  for  farm 
Hands  and  Laborers  of  all  Clases  and  I  will  again  Repeat  it  that  Indiana  offers  as 
good  Inducements  to  colored  emigrants  from  the  South  as  any  State  In  the  union. 

Agan  I  will  say  that  there  is  no  State  In  the  Union  that  has  a  better  School  System 
than  Indiana  -we  have  a  Sinking  fund  of  $7,000,000  for  School  purpos  and  the  Col¬ 
ored  People  are  treated  the  Same  as  the  whites  In  these  Schools  for  want  of  Time  I 
will  close  I  am  yours  as  Ever. 

J.  FT.  WALKER. 

Terre  Haute  Ind  Xov  10—79 

If  I  only  had  a  little  aid  I  would  Do  Lots  of  good  I  am  going  to  Saint  Louis  Mo 
which  Is  105  miles  from  here  and  make  arrangements  there  to  Get  Reefugees  to  come 
this  way  but  this  is  a  private  matter  ^ 

W. 


XI. 


Terre  Haute  Ind.  Jan  5  1880 

i 

Cat t  Wall  My  Dear  Sir  I  am  Directed  to  write  you  concerning  the  colored  Refu¬ 
gees  Leaving  Washington  for  Indiana  I  was  Directed  by  Mr  Perry  to  write  you 
now  what  I  want  Is  this  the  First  Time  you  have  any  of  those  People  on  hand  and 
wanting  to  come  to  this  State  Please  Send  me  about  15  Families  I  have  Places  for 
them  as  Soon  as  they  can  Get  here  and  if  Such  Should  be  the  case  Telagraph  me 
at  my  Expense  What  day  they  will  leave  Washington  for  Terre  Haute  Please  oblige 
yours  &c 

J.  H.  WALKER 

Terre  Haute  Ind. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


93 


TESTIMONY  OF  W.  G.  FEARRING. 
W.  G.  Fearring  sworn  and  examined. 


Bv  the  Chairman  : 


Question.  Where  do  you  reside ?— Answer.  Temporarily  here  in  the 
city. 

Q.  Where  did  you  formerly  reside  ? — A.  In  North  Carolina. 

Q.  What  part  of  North  Carolina? — A.  In  the  eastern  part,  at  Eliza¬ 
beth.  I  was  raised  there. 

Q.  You  are  a  native  of  that  part  of  the  State? — A.  Y^es,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  left  there  to  take  up  your  residence  here  ? — 
A.  In  December,  1877. 

Q.  AVhat  is  your  occupation  at  present  ? — A.  I  am  a  laborer  in  the 
Treasury  Department. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  Treasury  ? — A.  Since  July  14, 1875. 

Q.  Y"ou  may  state  whether  you  are  secretary  of  the  Emigrant  Aid  So¬ 
ciety  of  this  city. — A.  Y"es,  sir. 

Q.  You  succeeded  Mr.  Adams  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  were  appointed  secretary  ? — A.  I  was  appoint¬ 
ed  the  29th  of  last  month. 

Q.  What  records  have  you  of  the  acts  and  doings  of  that  society? — 
A.  I  have  some  of  the  letters  and  minutes  of  the  meetings. 

Q.  Did  you  bring  the  records  with  you  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  brought  none  of  the  letters  with  you  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  were  the  letters  from  principally? — A.  Some  were  from 
North  Carolina,  some  from  Indiana,  some  from  New  York. 

Q.  Could  you  bring  them  here  at  the  next  meeting  of  this  committee  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  records  of  the  society  ? — A.  You  mean  the  minutes  of  the 
last  meetings  ? 


Q.  Yes,  sir. — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  lean. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  do  so.  What  interest  have  you  taken  in  the 
emigration  movement  that  caused  you  to  be  secretary  of  the  society  ; 
have  you  actively  engaged  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  way? — A.  In  getting  up  funds  to  help  my  brethren  to 
get  away  from  North  Carolina. 

Q.  You  solicit  funds  for  that  purpose  ?— A.  Not  personally. 

Q.  How  do  you  do  it? — A.  I  helped  to  raise  them  by  a  concert  and 
in  other  ways.  A  committee  of  17  were  appointed  to  get  up  a  concert 
and  we  realized  a  handsome  sum  by  that. 

Q.  That  was  when  these  people  were  stuck  here  in  the  city  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 


Q.  Have  you  had  occasion  to  raise  any  more  since  that  ? — A.  No,  sir  ; 
not  directly  for  emigrants.  We  also  got  up  a  lecture  for  the  benefit  of 
the  colored  fund. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  yourself  posted  as  to  the  number  who  pass  through 
here? — A.  No,  sir;  for  there  are  a  good  many  who  pass  that  I  don't 
know  anything  about. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  anything  about  it  until  you  hear  of  it? — A.  Yes, 


sir. 


Q. 

Q. 

Q. 


By  Senator  Windom: 


You  are  in  the  Treasury  Department,  you  say  ?— A.  Ye 
What  State  are  you  from  ?— A.  North  Carolina, 

What  part  of  it  ? — A.  Eastern  part  of  it. 


sir. 


94 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  other  parts  of  the  State  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  age? — A.  l  am  27  years  old. 

Q.  You  are  engaged  in  x>romotiug  the  exodus,  and  you  think,  of  course, 
it  is  a  worthy  cause ;  what  are  your  reasons  for  so  thinking  ? — A.  Well, 
sir,  I  think  as  the  people  are  about  to  move  from  the  South  to  the  North 
•to  better  their  condition,  it  is  to  our  advantage  to  help  them  along. 

Q.  I  want  to  know  wherein  it  is,  if  at  all,  to  their  advantage  to  move 
from  the  South? — A.  They  seem  to  think  they  can  better  their  condi¬ 
tion,  and  which  I  think  they  can  do. 

Q.  Give  your  reasons  for  so  thinking. — A.  One  is  the  school  facilities 
which  they  will  have  in  the  North.  In  some  counties  in  North  Carolina 
they  have  only  two  months’  school  in  the  year.  The  proportion  of  school 
fund  is  about  $50  for  some  of  the  counties,  and  the  teachers  are  com¬ 
pelled  to  have  $25  a  month,  and  that  makes  only  two  months  in  the  year. 
Another  reason  is  that  the  farm  wages  are  too  low.  They  get  from  30 
to  50  cents  a  day  and  board,  and  GO  and  70  cents  when  they  board  them¬ 
selves  ;  servants  in  families  canuot  get  more  than  $2  and  $3  a  mouth. 
Of  course  they  have  the  right  to  vote,  but  to  a  certain  extent  they  are 
counted  out  of  that. 

Q.  How  do  you  understand  it  is  in  the  localities  where  these  people 
go? — A.  Do  you  mean  Indiana? 

Q.  I  mean  any  place.  What  is  the  condition  there  as  to  schools  ? —  . 
A.  I  think  they  have  school  all  the  year  around,  except  in  the  summer 
months,  when  there  is  a  vacation. 

Q.  How  is  it  as  to  wages  l — A.  Wages  are  better. 

Q.  How  much  better? — A.  A  farm  hand  in  North  Carolina,  I  think, 
gets  $6  and  $7  a  mouth;  and  I  understand  from  these  people  who  have 
gone  that  they  can  get  $15  and  $20. 

Q.  Do  you  say  you  learned,  that  from  people  who  have  gone  there,  or 
from  those  who  are  inducing  them  to  go? — A.  I  have  received  letters 
from  parties  who  have  gone  there. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  received  letters  from  parties  who  have  gone  out 
there,  and  who  are  getting  that? — A.  Well,  I  take  back  the  statement 
as  to  the  letters.  I  have  not  received  any  of  that  kind,  but  I  get  it  from 
statements  that  I  saw  in  the  newspapers. 

Q.  What  kind  of  papers? — A.  The  Greencastle  Banner  and  Indian¬ 
apolis  Leader,  copied  in  the  Wilmington  Post,  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  Are  the  Greencastle  Banner  and  Indianapolis  Leader  both  edited 
by  colored  men  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  one  is  edited  by  a  white  man  and  one  by 
a  colored  man.  I  have  also  read  statements  in  the  Cincinnati  Com¬ 
mercial  to  the  same  effect. 

Q.  Who  controls  that? — A.  White  men  control  it. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  I  wish  to  ask  you  whether  your  knowledge  of  the  status  of  your 
people  in  North  Carolina  is  obtained  from  personal  contact  with  them 
or  from  your  observation  at  home,  or  from  parties  here  in  Washing¬ 
ton  ? — A.  It  is  from  parties  at  home,  friends  of  mine  asking  me  to  look 
out  for  them.  I  say  that  their  condition  there  is  so  low  that  they  can 
do  nothing  for  themselves. 

Q.  Is  there  any  prospect  of  any  immediate  improvement  in  wages  or 
the  school  facilities  there  in  North  Carolina? — A.  I  hardly  think  there 
is. 

Q.  How  has  it  been  there  during  this  period  of  reconstruction  sioce 
the  war  as  to  wages? — A.  Up  to  1867  or  18G8  farm  hands  got  from  $1 
to  $1.25  a  day,  but  that  was  under  a  Kepublican  administration.  Since 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  95 

then  they  have  been  going  down,  and  now  they  are  30  and  40  cents  a 
day. 

Q.  How  is  it  as  to  schools  ? — A.  We  had  schools  six  to  eight  months 
in  the  year  there. 

Q.  And  that  you  say  was  during  the  period  of  a  Republican  adminis¬ 
tration  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  has  it  been  since  the  Republicans  lost  control  ? — A.  In  some 
counties  we  have  schools  for  two  months  and  in  some  four.  In  some  of 
the  counties  where  there  are  towns  there  are  six  mouths  school. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  the  manner  of  voting.  How  is  it  as  to  the  exercise 
of  the  franchise  since  the  war  ?  How  has  that  privilege  been  accorded 
to  your  people  in  practice  ? — A.  We  have  got  the  right  to  vote,  I  believe, 
especially  in  the  second  Congressional  district,  where  the  vote  does  not 
seem  to  do  ns  much  good. 

Q.  How  is  that.  ? — A.  Because,  with  an  8,000  Republican  majority, 
we  have  a  Democratic  member  representing  us  in  the  House. 

Q.  But  if  I  understand  you,  you  do  not  complain  of  any  actual  vio¬ 
lence  practiced  upon  your  people  in  North  Carolina ;  how  is  that? — A. 
Well,  sir,  in  my  section  of  country  they  attempted  to  organize  a  band 
of  ku-klux,  and  the  leader  of  it  came  down  into  my  county  and  weut  out 
to  organize  his  band,  and  we  told  them  that  we  were  quiet  and  peace¬ 
able,  and  we  wanted  them  to  attend  to  their  own  business,  and  we  would 
attend  to  ours;  and  we  said,  if  they  organized  the  ku-klux,  that  the 
first  colored  man  or  white  Republican  who  was  murdered  in  that  section 
we  would  burn  down  the  town  in  revenge.  That  rather  scared  them 
off,  and  we  have  had  no  trouble  there  since. 

Q.  And  you  prevented  the  organization  of  the  ku-klux  by  that 
threat  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  ku-klux  was  not  established  in  your  section  ? — A.  No, 
sir. 

•  Q.  How  is  it  in  other  parts  of  the  State? — A.  The  colored  people  vote 
pretty  freely,  I  believe,  since  1869  and  1871. 

Q.  How  Lias  the  franchise  been  exercised  by  your  people  since  then? 
— A.  Generally  pretty  freely  in  most  parts  of  the  State,  but  not  in  all. 

Q.  Where  is  it  different  ? — A.  Up  in  the  western  part  of  the  State. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  colored  population  live  in  that  part  of  the 
State  ? — A.  I  cannot  say. 

Q.  Now,  donotyou  think,  Mr.  Fearing,  that  consideringall  the  resources 
of  North  Carolina,  her  climate,  and  the  fact  that  your  people  have  lived 
there  ever  since  the  first  settlement  of  the  country,  that  it  will  be  better 
for  them  to  stay  there,  and  hope  for  an  amelioration  of  their  condition 
through  their  own  efforts  and  the  friendship  of  the  whites,  rather  than 
seek  homes  further  to  the  north  and  west,  where  they  are  unknown,  and 
the  friendship  for  them  is  mostly  of  a  sentimental  character  ? — A.  I  do 
not,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  have  made  sufficiently  strenuous  efforts  tore- 
move  these  prejudices,  so  that  they  are  justified  in  incurring  the  dan¬ 
gers  and  the  hardships  of  emigration  ? — A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Are  they  not  acting  hastily  in  your  opinion  ?— A.  I  think  not. 

Q.  Is  there  not  a  great  deal  of  false  information  circulated  among 
them  to  stimulate  this  movement?— A.  I  have  not  heard  of  any. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know,  or  have  you  not  heard,  of  any  false  reports  cir¬ 
culated  among  them  to  stimulate  a  desire  to  emigrate?— A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Has  your  society  or  have  you  personally  any  information  from 
these  men  as  to  their  condition  now  in  Indiana?— A.  I  have  heard  from 
some  of  them. 


96 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Will  you  give  us  the  substance  of  their  reports  ? — A.  They  say 
they  are  getting  along  splendidly,  and  never  had  such  a  good  time  in 
their  lives ;  and  oue  man  said  that  he  would  not  go  back  to  North  Car¬ 
olina  for  $500. 

Q.  What  is  his  condition  now,  do  you  know  ? — A  He  is  living  with  a 
gentleman  out  there,  and  doing  well. 

Q.  In  what  capacity? — A.  As  a  farm  hand. 

Q.  Ho  you  know  what  wages  he  is  getting  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  men  are  situated  out  there  with  the  farm¬ 
ers? — A.  Most  all  of  them,  I  believe. 

lQ.  This  man  who  would  uot  go  back  for  $500,  is  he  a  man  of  family  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Has  a  wife  and  child  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  How  long  has  it  been  since  you  lived  in  North  Carolina  ? — A. 
Since  November,  1870. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  have  been  back  there  ? — A.  I  was  back  there 
in  the  late  Presidential  election. 

Q.  You  were  down  there  then? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  in  government  employ  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  go  home  to  vote  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  go  before  the  last  Presidential  election  ? — A.  I 
think  thirty  days. 

Q.  And  you  have  not  been  back  since  that  time? — A.  No,  sir.  I  have 
been  back  since  then,  but  uot  home  ;  but  I  have  been  in  Warrentou,  my 
wife’s  home. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  ? — A.  About  two  weeks. 

Q.  How  much  time  did  you  spend  in  Indiana? — A.  I  never  was  in 
the  State. 

Q.  Never  in  the  State  at  all  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  know  nothing  of  the  State  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  except  what  I  read. 

Q.  Have  you  read  her  laws  on  the  subject  of  public  schools? — A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  her  landlord  and  tenant  act  ? — A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  You  know  nothing  about  it  whatever? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  say  you  know  of  no  false  reports  made  to  these  emigrants 
in  order  to  make  them  go  to  Indiana? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  they  were  told  that  they  could  get  $1.50  a  day  ? — 
A.  No,  sir. 


Q.  What  wages  did  you  hear  it  stated  they  could  get? — A.  Twelve 
dollars  to  $15  a  month. 

Q.  Twelve  dollars  to  $15  a  month  and  their  board? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  see  that? — A.  I  saw  it  in  the  Greencastle  Banner, 
copied  into  the  Wilmington  Post,  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  these  reports  in  other  papers  except  those  you 
have  mentioned? — A.  No,  sir;  except  in  this  National  Republican  here 
in  Washington. 

Q.  What  representations  did  the  National  Republican  make? — A. 
They  copied  those  articles  from  the  Greencastle  Banner. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  it  represented  that  they  could  get  from  $2  to  $2.50  a 
day  as  coal-miners  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  heard  that? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q,  You  say  that  this  man  in  Indiana  said  he  would  not  go  back  to 
North  Carolina  for  $500?  What  is  his  name?— A.  I  do  not  know,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


07 


Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  lives  ?■ — A.  No,  sir. 

Q*  I>0  yon  know  what  post-office  he  wrote  from  ? — A.  I  never  saw  the 
letter  ;  I  only  saw  the  statement  in  print. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  is  living  now? — A.  I  think  somewhere  near 
Greencastle,  in  Putnam  County. 

Q.  Was  his  name  signed  to  the  statement  ? — A.  Yes,  sir:  his  name 
was  signed  to  it  as  his  statement. 

Q.  But  you  do  not  remember  the  name  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Senator  Windom.  I  have  a  statement  here  in  the  paper  which  seems 
to  have  been  made  by  a  professor  of  mathematics  in  Indiana. 

The  Chairman.  In  what  institution? 

Senator  Windom.  I  do  not  remember. 

The  Chairman.  This  happens  to  be  the  portion  of  a  letter  from  Pro¬ 
fessor  McNutt,  who  was  a  white  man  when  I  saw  him  last. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  You  said  you  did  not  see  the  letter,  and  did  not  see  the  man  who 
wrote  it  ? 

The  Witness.  No,  sir.  It  was  marked  under  the  head  of  “Colored 
emigrants.” 

Q.  So  is  this  letter  in  the  paper  this  morniug. — A.  Well,  sir,  that  let¬ 
ter  I  take  to  be  the  letter  of  a  white  man. 

By  the  Chairman: 

Q.  Is  that  the  letter  you  alluded  to?— A.  No,  sir;  I  never  saw  that 
before  this  morning. 

By  Senator  Blair: 

Q.  Will  you  not  state  to  the  committee  what  you  want  to  say  about 
this  colored  man? — A.  Well,  sir,  there  was  a  statement  published  in 
the  Greencastle  Banner  in  connection  with  others  coming  from  colored 
emigrants,  that  one  of  Them  said  he  would  not  go  back  to  North  Caro¬ 
lina  for  $500,  and  the  statement  I  refer  to  was  under  the  head  of  “Col¬ 
ored  emigrants.” 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  That  letter  in  the  Republican  this  morning  is  under  the  same 
head  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  that  is  the  letter  of  a  white  man,  and  is  not 
the  one  I  refer  to. 

Senator  Windom  (passing  a  paper  to  the  witness).  Do  you  remember 
whether  that  report  of  that  meeting  which  is  marked  there  is  the  one 
that  you  saw  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  substance  of  the  statements  published  in  the  Greencastle  Ban¬ 
ner  is  there  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Senator  Windom.  I  will  read  this  statement  (reading) : 

LIFE  IN  INDIANA— HOW  THE  COLORED  IMMIGRANTS  ARE  FARING. 

Cincinnati,  December  29. 

A  meeting  of  negro  immigrants  from  North  Carolina  was  called  for  Saturday  night 
in  the  court-house  7n  Greencastle,  Indiana.  The  purpose  of  the  meeting  was  to  com¬ 
pare  experience  and  interchange  views  as  to  the  propriety  of  encouraging  the  move¬ 
ment.  The  Democratic  sheriff,  however,  closed  the  doors  of  the  court-house  against 
the  colored  men,  and  the  meeting  was  not  held.  Pains  were  taken,  however,  by  news¬ 
paper  correspondents  to  gather  from  the  colored  men  who  have  arrived  since  the  move¬ 
ment  began  a  number  of  statements  of  their  personal  experience.  Greencastle  is  the 
home  ofPMr.  Langsdale,  who  guaranteed  homes  and  employment  to  all  who  would 
come,  and  the  greater  number  of  the  now  arrivals  have  naturally  located  in  that  vicin¬ 
ity.  Of  a  dozen  or  more  intelligent  negroes  all  express  themselves  as  greatly  pleased 

7  EX 


98 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


at  the  change  they  had  made.  Said  Willis  Stating  “  I  have  a  good  plastered  house  to 
live  in,  with  live  rooms.  Me  and  my  family  have  plenty  to  eat,  and  we  never  had  spell 
good  times  in  our  lives.  I  would  not  go  back  to  North  Carolina  for  $500.  I  get  sixty 
cents  a  cord  for  cutting  wood,  and  cut  from  a  cord  to  a  cord  and  a  half  a  day,  besides 
doing  other  work.  My  wife  worked  for  one  of  the  neighbors  yesterday  and  got  seventh- 
five  cents  in  silver  for  it.  I  have  already  had  more  things  given  me  since  1  came  here 
than  I  had  lost  in  leaving  North  Carolina.  My  family  is  better  satisfied  than  they 
ever  were  before  in  their  lives.  I  never  met  as  good  white  friends  in  my  life.  I  have 
three  children,  and  they  will  start  lor  school  on  Monday.  I  want  all  my  people  in  the 
South  to  leave  there  and  come  here.  They  can  do  so  much  better  here,  and  be  free¬ 
men.77  .  _  # 

A  dozen  others  interviewed,  without  exception,  talked  in  the  samestrain.  About  one 
hundred  and  fifty  men,  women,  and  children  have  so  far  settled  in  Putnam  County. 
One  thing  that  pleases  them  is  receiving  pay  for  their  work  in  money  instead  of  store 
orders,  as  they  did  in  North  Carolina.  Republicans  say  that  plenty  of  work  is  still  to 
be  had  on  the  farms  in  that  part  of  the  State.  Three  men,  who  wantonly  destroyed 
clothes  of  immigrants  arriving  in  Greencastle  on  Wednesday,  were  convicted  yester¬ 
day  and  fined,  and  one  of  them  went  to  jail. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  this  statement  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  I  have 
read  the  substance  of  it. 

Q.  Well,  have  you  ever  seen  this  statement  of  James  A.  Stokes  in 
regard  to  his  condition  and  experiences  in  Indiana"? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
read  that  letter  in  the  same  newspaper. 

Q.  Did  that  help  you  to  make  up  your  mind  as  to  how  these  people 
were  getting  on  in  that  country? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  read  the  letter  of  Colonel  Streight  as  to  why  he  was  help¬ 
ing  those  people  and  taking  care  of  them? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  another  evidence  to  your  mind  as  to  their  condition  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Senator  Windom.  I  will  read  this  letter  of  Stokes  (reading) : 

[From  the  Greencastle  (Ind.)  Banner,  January  8,  1880.] 

MORE  EXODUS  TESTIMONY. 

Lagowa,  (Ind.),  January  5,  1880. 

George  J.  Langsdale,  Esq., 

Editor  of  the  Greencastle  Banner  : 

Dear  Sir:  I  read  with  delight  your  interviews  with  various  colored  men,  published 
in  your  issue  of  January  1,  and  desire  to  add  my  testimony  to  controvert  the  false¬ 
hoods  that  are  being  constantly  published  in  Democratic  newspapers. 

I  left  Rocky  Mount,  North  Carolina,  on  the  15th  of  December  last  to  come  to  In¬ 
diana,  having  been  told  that  I  could  do  better  here  than  there.  I  had  thought  of  going 
somewhere  to  better  my  condition  more  than  eight  years  ago,  but  did  not  know  just 
where  to  go.  I  could  only  get  from  five  to  seven  dollars  per  month  for  labor,  and  was 
paid  in  orders  at  the  store,  and  had  to  pay  from  ten  to  fifteen  per  cent,  above  the  regu¬ 
lar  prices  for  goods  and  groceries,  because,  as  was  said,  the  orders  were  “  time  orders’7 — 
that  is,  not  payable  for  some  months,  they  being  paid  in  the  fall  and  spring. 

By  living  with  the  most  stringent  economy,  on  the  plainest  fare,  and  working  all 
the  time,  I  could  hardly  keep  out  of  debt.  Nearly  all  of  the  colored  people  find  them¬ 
selves  involved  in  debt  from  year  to  year,  and  are  not  in  condition  to  come  away, 
though  they  greatly  desire  to  do  so ;  and  they  are  not  treated  with  that  respect  which 
they  know  is  due  to  them,  but  are  constantly  compelled  to  submit  to  insolence  and 
insult,  besides  being  robbed  of  the  just  reward  of  their  labor. 

There  the  colored  people  are  not  allowed  to  enjoy  their  political  rights  as  citizens. 
Three  Democrats  and  two  Republicans  constitute  the  judges  of  election  at  each  vot- 
ing  place,  and  the  two  Republicans  are  usually  incompetent,  uneducated  colored  men, 
who  are  appointed  and  forced  to  serve,  though  entirely  ignorant  of  their  duties  and 
unwilling  to  act.  The  three  Democrats  control  and  govern  the  election  and  compel 
the  two  Republicans  to  do  as  they  are  bid.  These  are  among  the  reasons  that  induced 
me  to  leave  North  Carolina. 

The  colored  people  having  heard  of  Kansas  and  the  lands  there,  and  the  chance  to 
get  homes  for  ourselves  and  families,  sent  two  agents  to  viewtliat  country  and  to  make 
a  true  report.  They  came  to  Indianapolis,  and  there  learned  that  we  could  do  very 
well  here,  and  reported  that  fact  to  us.  At  once  large  numbers  of  us  determined  to 
leave  that  inhospitable  country  and  seek  homos  in  a  land  where  we  could  enjoy  those 
rights  which  are  justly  ours.  1  paid  my  own  and  my  wife’s  fare,  all  the  way,  which 
was  thirty-two  dollars,  and  came  right  on  to  Greencastle.  I  came  direct  from  Green- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


99 


castle  to  Ladoga,  and  am  working  for  Mr.  James  H.  Harrison,  to  whom  I  was  cited  by 
Rev.  J.  H.  Clay,  of  your  city,  who  very  kindly  directed  me  where  to  go,  as  I  was  a 
stranger  in  a  strange  land. 

Mr.  Harrison  pays  me  twelve  dollars  per  month  and  board,  for  one  year,  and  provides 
myself  and  wife  a  good  comfortably  furnished  room  at  his  house.  "He  also  pays  Mr. 
Rayford  Statin,  a  brother  of  Mr.  Willis  Statin,  whose  interview  I  read  . in  your  paper, 
the  same  wages,  and  treats  us  with  great  kindness,  like  men,  and  not  like  dogs,  as  it 
was  in  North  Carolina. 

Both  myself  and  Mr.  Statin  are  perfectly  satisfied,  as  are  our  wives,  and  I  am  quite 
sure  that  this  is  the  place  that  I  wanted  to  find  more  than  eight  years  ago,  where  I 
can  get  a  fair  return  for  my  labor. 

I  believe  truly  that  this  country  is  the  right  one  for  the  thousands  of  colored  people, 
living  in  darkness  and  under  intolerable  oppression  in  the  South,  to  come  to,  and  I 
denounce  the  contrary  position,  as  taken  and  declared  by  the  Hon.  Fred.  Douglass.  I 
sincerely  thank  you  for  the  very  great  interest  you  so  kindly  manifest  in  tlnT welfare 
of  my  benighted  race,  and  bid  you  God-speed  in  your  good  work. 

Yours,  most  sincerely, 


JAMES  A.  STOKES. 


Senator  Windom.  Here  is  another  letter  which  I  desire  to  read  in 
evidence,  from  General  Streight  (reading)  : 

STREIGHTENED  UP — AN  EXPLANATION  THAT  HITS  THE  BULL’S-EYE  AT  EVERY  SHOT — A 

LETTER  THAT  DOES  HONOR  TO  ITS  AUTHOR  AND  STRIKES  HOME  FOR  THE  OPPRESSED. 

[Logansport  Journal.] 

The  following  letter  clearly  and  sufficiently  explains  itself: 

Hon.  CiijfRLES  Kahls: 

My  Esteemed  Friend:  You  have  my 'thanks  for  sending  the  Pharos  of  the  18tli 
instant.  It  is  surprising  to  see  how  a  very  ordinary  transaction  in  our  private  busi¬ 
ness  affairs  can  be  construed  by  blind  political  partisans  into  a  matter  of  great  public 
concern.  The  truth  is  that  I  sent  two  colored  men  and  their  families,  consisting  of 
some  twelve  women  aud  children,  from  this  city  to  my  farm  in  Newton  County,  where 
I  am  needing  some  farm  laborers.  These  people  had  just  arrived  here  from  North 
Carolina.  These  are  the. people  referred  to  by  the  editor  of  the  Pharos  when  he  says: 
“Tell  it  to  the  laboring  white  men  of.  Indianapolis  that  Colonel  Streight  is  stocking 
his  farm  in  Newton  County  with  North  Carolina  negroes.’7  Certainly,  tell  it  to  men 
of  Indianapolis,  both  white  aud  black,  that  I  sent  these  people  to  work  on  my  farm. 
Why  not  tell  them?  I  have  frequently  advertised  for  farm  laborers  to  go  to  my  New¬ 
ton  County  farm,  and  have  sent  numbers  of  them  there,  gave  them  remunerative  em¬ 
ployment,  and  I  still  want  more,  and,  so  far  as  I  know,  there  are  no  idle  farm  hands 
in  Newton  County.  Yes,  tell  it  to  the  people  that  I  sent  two  colored  men,  with  their 
families,  to  my  Newton  County  farm  ;  and  I  will  add  that  they  are  poor  and  destitute, 
but  I  believe  honest  and  industrious. 

Now,  friend  lvahlo,  while  I  am  writing  I  will  add  that  I  have  a  very  kindly  feeling 
for  these  poor,  destitute,  persecuted  people,  who  are  endeavoring  to  escape  from  a  con¬ 
dition  worse  than  slavery.  It  will  soon  be  sixteen  years  (in  February  next)  siuce  I 
was  making  my  way  from  the  same  country.  That  class  of  people  that  are  now  per¬ 
secuting  the  colored  people  was  then  called  rebels  j  and  those  rebels  had  orders  from 
the  commander  of  the  prison  from  which  I  had  escaped  to  capture  me,  but  not  to  bring 
me  back.  My  life  was  at  stake,  but  human  endurance  has  a  limit  even  when  life  is  at 
stake,  and  this  limit  was  reached  when  I  was  on  the  south  bank  of  the  Rappahannock 
River,  near  Tappahannock,  after  a  terrible  day  of  crossing  difficult  streams,  marching 
and  hiding  from  the  enemy.  My  feet  were  sore  ;  I  was  worn  out  for  want  of  sleep  and 
starving  for  want  of  food.  Escape  seemed  impossible.  On  the  north  was  the  Rap¬ 
pahannock  River  (near  three  miles  wide),  on  the  east  was  a  deep  impassable  creek,  on 
the  west  was  another  stream  of  water  too  wide  and  deep  to  cross  without  a  boat,  and 
on  the  south  side  the  rebels  had  established  a  strong  picket  line.  It  was  known  by 
the  rebels  that  I  was  somewhere  within  the  space  of  country  above  described,  which 
was  not  more  than  two  miles  wide  and  three  or  four  miles  long.  A  cavalry  regiment, 
together  with  the  people,  both  black  and  white,  with  their  dogs,  had  turned  out  to 
hunt  all  day  for  my  place  of  concealment.  It  seems  almost  providential  that  I  was 
able  to  elude  their  vigilance  through  that  terrible  day.  But  darkness  put  an  end  to 
the  search  and  I  was  left  to  consider  the  situation.  I  p  to  this  time  my  policy  had 
been  to  avoid  trusting  anybody,  and  to  endeavor  to  get  through  the  country  undis¬ 
covered.  This  must  now  be  changed,  for  I  was  in  great  need  oi  immediate  fiiendly 
assistance,  aud  as  I  had  no  confidence  in  the  white  men  ol  that  section  of  the  countiy, 
the  black  men  were  my  only  choice.  I  started  in  the  dark,  through  a  drenching  lain, 
and  soon  found  the  negro  quarters  of  a  plantation,  and  on  entering  one  ot  the  cabins 
I  was  welcomed  bv  a  good,  honest  Lniou  man,  aud  a  triend,  though  a  slave,  who  had 


100 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


V 

been  ont  all  day  with  bis  mast’er  hunting  for  me.  This  man,  at  the  risk  of  his  life, 
took  me  into  liis  cabin,  procured  and  cooked  a  bountiful  supply  of  food,  and  permitted 
me  to  rest  while  lie  joined  his  master  the  next  day  in  a  vigorous  hunt  for  my  place  of 
concealment.  Night  came  again,  and  the  negroes  returned  to  tell  of  what  had  been 
done,  and  of  the  fact  that  a  certain  boat,  by  chance,  might  be  captured,  which  would 
enable  me  to  cross  the  Rappahannock,  and  thus  escape  from  my  pursuers.  The  negroes 
of  this  plantation,  at  the  risk  of  their  lives,  joined  me  in  capturing  the  boat,  and  piloted 
me  through  a  difficult  stream  to  the  river,  and  returned  to  their  houses  to  join  in  the 
search  for  my  whereabouts  on  the  morrow.  By  their  assistance  I  made  my  way  out  of 
the  reach  of  the  enemy,  and  my  life  was  spared. 

The  colored  people  now  heeingfrom  southern  persecution  are  trying  to  escape  from  the 
same  evil  spirit  that  plunged  our  country  into  war ;  that  starved  and  tortured  to  death 
over  thirty  thousand  Union  soldiers ;  that  hunted  escaping  prisoners  of  war  with  blood¬ 
hounds;  that  since  the  close  of  the  war  has  murdered  tens  of  thousands  of  men  and 
women  for  entertaining  political  opinions  favorable  to  the  Union  ;  that  has  organized 
rille  clubs  and  ku-klux  bands  to  whip,  scourge,  and  murder  Union  people.  I  say  that 
it  is  from  this  evil  spirit  that  these  poor  people  are  trying  to  escape,  and  it  was  from 
the  same  demon  that  I  made  my  escape  ;  and  now,  remembering  the  fact,  if  any  man 
supposes  that  I  have  no  sympathy  for  the  refugees  he  is  not  acquainted  with  my  dis¬ 
position,  for  I  do  not  intend  to  be  guilty  of  ingratitude. 

Hoping  that  the  time  will  soon  come  when  our  National  Government  will  protect  the 
constitutional  rights  of  our  citizens  throughout  the  length  and  breadth  of  the  land, 

I  remain,  most  truly,  yours, 

A.  D.  STREIGHT. 

The  Chairman  (to  the  witness).  Do  you  know  who  General  Streight 

is?  % 

A.  Ro,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  I  suppose,  Senator  Windom,  you  will  allow  it  to  ap¬ 
pear  as  admitted  that  he  was  a  Republican  and  a  member  of  the  State 
senate  of  Indiana  ? 

Senator  Windom.  O,  yes;  and  I  also  desire  that  this  article  in  the 
Republican  of  this  morning  shall  appear  as  a  part  of  the  record  (read¬ 
ing)  : 


COLORED  EMIGRANTS  IN  INDIANA. 

Washington,  D.  C January  24,  1880. 

To  the  Editor  of  the  National  Republican  : 

►Sir:  The  following  of  a  letter  to  a  gentleman  of  Washington  from  Rev.  Patterson 
McNutt,  A.  M.,  professor  of  mathematics  in  Asbury  University,  at  Greeneastle,  Ind., 
will  no  doubt  be  read  with  interest  by  those  who  so  generously  contributed  money, 
food,  and  clothing  for  the  benefit  of  the  colored  emigrants  from  North  Carolina  to  In¬ 
diana. 

L. 

“Yours  containing  an  article  from  the  Alexandria  Gazette  on  ‘  The  North  Carolina 
negroes  in  Indiana/  is  received.  In  reply  I  will  say  I  know  nothing,  nor  can  I  find 
out  from  others  anything  in  regard  to  the  case  referred  to  of  the  woman  who,  when 
arriving  in  Indianapolis,  was  stationed  in  a  church  packed  with  emigrants  of  her  own 
color  from  her  own  section,  and  for  three  weeks  received  only  one  meal  a  day,  and  that 
a  poor  one,  and  who  says  that  the  *  emigrants  were  treated  like  dogs  /  but  from  what 
I  do  know  personally  of  the  treatment  shown  to  emigrants  to  Putnam  County,  and 
from  what  Reliable  colored  persons  and  others  who  assisted  in  providing  for  the  emi¬ 
grants  at  Indianapolis  have  told  me,  I  can  but  think  that  the  story  of  that  woman 
must  have  been  invented  for  other  purposes  than  the  good  of  the  emigrant  freed  men. 

“  Before  receiving  your  letter  I  had  been  aiding,  as  far  as  I  was  able,  in  looking  up 
homes  for  those  unfortunate  people.  Since  receiving  yours  I  have  taken  pains  to  in¬ 
quire  of  several  of  the  emigrants  in  regard  to  their  treatment  since  coming,  as  also 
how  they  are  pleased  with  their  change,  and,  so  far,  I  have  not  found  a  solitary  oue 
who  complains  of  his  treatment,  or  who  is  dissatisfied  with  his  new  surroundings.  On 
the  other  hand  I  find  them,  without  exception,  enthusiastic  over  their  new  homes  and 
prospects.  I  will  mention  one  example,  from  which  you  can  judge  all.  I  took  the 
daughter  of  one  of  these  North  Caroliuans  to  do  the  work  in  my  family,  and  after  a 
few  days  the  father  and  mother  came  around  to  advise  her,  and,  in  conversation  with 
£hese  parents,  I  asked:  ‘How  do  you  like  Indiana,  and  how  do  the  people  treat  you  V 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES, 


101 


They  replied,  ‘  We  could  not  he  hired  to  go  hack  to  Carolina;  would  not  go  hack  for 
$500.  The  people  here,  though  strangers,  already  treat  us  better  than  the  Carolinians 
did,  with  whom  we  had  spent  all  of  our  lives.’ 

“The  class  of  negroes  who  have  come  to  Putnam  County  seem  to  he  honest,  industri¬ 
ous,  and  anxious  to  find  employment,  and  I  rejoice  to  say  that,  so  far,  all  who  have 
come  have  found  homes  an<^ employment,  and  yet  the  demand  for  farm  laborers  and 
house  servants  is  not  fully  supplied. 

“  I  think  the  cry  that  these  people  have  been  influenced  to  come  here  for  political 
purposes  is  a  base  slander.  My  judgment  is  that  the  ‘exodus’ is  controlled  by  a 
power  greater  aud  safer  than  that  of  politicians,  and  I  only  fear  that  a  curse  will  come 
upon  our  government  for  not  aiding  the  helpless  freedmen  to  homes.” 


TESTIMONY  OF  CHARLES  N.  OTEY. 


Charles  N.  Otey  (colored)  sworn  and  examined. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside,  Mr.  Otey  ? — Answer.  2121  Twelfth 
street,  N.  W. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  Washington  ? — A.  I  have  been  here 
about  eleven  years. 

Q.  Where  did  you  come  from  when  you  came  here  ? — A.  I  came  from 
Oberlin,  Ohio. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  in  Oberlin  ? — A.  Two  years  and  a  half. 

Q.  Were  you  educated  at  Oberlin  ?■ — A.  I  entered  the  freshman  class. 
I  was  three  months  in  it  at  Oberlin. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born? — A.  Raleigh,  North  Carolina.  I  lived  there 
until  I  was  sixteen  years  old. 

Q.  You  went  from  there  to  Oberlin  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  went  from  there 
to  Oberlin,  and  I  came  from  Oberlin  in  November,  18G9,  to  the  Howard 
University. 

Q.  Were  you  a  teacher  in  the  Howard  University  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
taught  awhile,  educating  myself  the  whole  time  I  was  in  college. 

Q.  Are  you  a  graduate  of  Howard  University  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Of  what  class? — A.  The  class  of  1873,  and  the  law  class  of  lS7f>. 

Q.  Are  you  a  member  of  the  bar  in  this  District? — A.  Y^es,  sir;  1  am 
a  member,  but  I  am  not  practicing. 

Q.  What  are  you  doing  now  ? — A.  I  am  teaching  and  editing  a  news¬ 
paper.  I  am  teaching  near  the  Howard  University,  one  or  two  squares 
from  the  boundary  line,  in  a  public  county  school,  called  the  Howard 
high  school.  I  am  also  editing  the  Argus,  which  was  established  last 
September. 

Q.  Is  it  a  weekly  paper? — A.  Y"es,  sir. 

Q.  To  what  interest  is  your  paper  devoted? — A.  The  interest  of  the 
colored  people. 

Q.  You  are  editing  a  paper  which  is  advocating  the  interests  of  the 
colored  race? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  your  own  race,  I  take  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Yrou  are  a  native  of  Raleigh,  North  Carolina? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
lived  there  1G  years,  and  I  have  been  visiting  there  every  year  since — 
spending  my  vacations  there  almost  every  year,  with  one  or  two  excep¬ 
tions. 


Q.  Were  you  back  there  last  year? — A.  No,  sir;  but  I  was  there  in 
January — this  present  month. 

Q.  But  you  go  there  pretty  much  every  year  ? 

I  might  say.  Home  years  I  may  not  go  ;  but  1 


-A.  Well,  every  year, 
go  twice  a  year,  gene- 


I 


102  NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 

rally — Christmas  sometimes,  and  holiday  vacation ;  and  I  might  say 
that  I  go  every  year. 

Q.  Being  an  editor  and  a  teacher,  will  yon  please  state  to  the  com¬ 
mittee  whether  you  have  made  something  of  a  study  the  condition  of 
your  people  in  North  Carolina? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  been  visiting  in  different  portions  of  the  State  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir.  When  there  in  the  summer  I  have  gone  over  some  sections  of  the 
State,  and  particularly  over  this  same  section  from  which  this  exodus 
takes  place. 

Q.  Now,  in  your  own  way,  I  wish  you  would  describe  the  general  con¬ 
dition  of  the  laboring  people  in  that  part  of  the  State,  black  and  white, 
and  point  out  what  distinctions,  if  any,  are  made  between  your  people  and 
the  white  people. — A.  Well,  sir,  I  last  night  wrote  out  the  notes  of  what 
I  wanted  to  respond  when  called  before  this  committee.  I  will  therefore 
give  you  my  statement  from  my  own  notes.  I  was  one  of  the  six  or 
eight  who  first  formed  the  national  emigrant  aid  society.  At  the  first 
meeting  I  was  elected  vice-president,  and  myself  alone  drew  up  the  con¬ 
stitution.  The  object  of  the  society,  as  I  understood  it,  was  to  give  aid 
to  those  who  were  fleeing  from  oppression. 

Saint  Louis  was  overcrowded  with  emigrants  from  the  Southern  States, 
and  appeals  had  been  made  to  all  lovers  of  humanity.  The  object  of  the 
society  was  commendable,  viz,  to  do  all  in  its  power  to  raise  funds, 
either  by  the  personal  efforts  of  its  members  or  by  lectures  and  sub¬ 
scriptions.  All  the  money  collected  was  to  be  forwarded  to  those  who 
were  fleeing  from  the  persecution  of  Southern  task-masters. 

So  far  as  I  know,  no  member  of  the  society  appeared  to  hold  any  other 
view  until  Mr.  Mendenhall,  at  the  second  or  perhaps  the  first  meeting, 
made  a  speech  in  which  lie  suggested  the  advisability  of  diverting  the 
emigrants  from  Kansas,  which  seemed  to  be  the  objective  point  of  all  of 
them,  and  in  his  speech  said  that  it  would  be  a  good  thing  to  send  about 
five  thousand  into  Indiana  as  that  was  a  doubtful  State  in  the  coming 
election.  No  one  at  the  time  objected  to  this  suggestion  save  myself. 

Now,  while  no  man  lives  who  is  more  devoted  to  the  principles  of  the 
Republican  party  than  myself,  yet  I  was  compelled  to  object  to  this  use 
of  my  people. 

I  felt  that  we  had  been  used  long  enough  as  tools.  I  knew  that  the 
former  use  of  us  had  not  redounded  to  our  advantage.  In  the  South,  as 
one  man,  we  had  voted  the  Republican  ticket,  and  our  reward  was  buck¬ 
shot  from  the  ku-klux  and  no  projection  from  the  national  government. 
We  had  placed  Mr.  Hayes  in  the  White  House,  and  as  soon  as  he  took 
his  seat  he  withdrew  from  us  all  the  protection  we  ever  had.  Hence  I 
was  opposed  to  the  longer  use  of  my  people  by  any  political  party,  and 
as  soon  as  I  saw  that  the  exodus  was  to  be  used  politically  I  withdrew 
from  the  society. 

There  were  others  in  the  society  who  afterwards  expressed  the  same 
sentiments  that  I  entertained,  but  they  remained  in  the  organization. 

Captain  Wall,  Messrs.  Holland  and  Adams  told  me  repeatedly  that 
there  was  no  political  significance  in  the  movement,  and  two  of  them 
urged  me  to  attend  the  meetings,  but  I  refused. 

I  was  willing  with  money,  voice,  and  pen  to  aid  the  oppressed,  but  I 
could  not  sanction  the  movement  to  send  men  to  States  for  political  pur¬ 
poses.  In  Kansas  they  might  acquire  homesteads;  in  Indiana  and  Ohio 
they  could  not.  To  the  first-named  State  they  had  received  an  invita¬ 
tion,  but  to  the  two  last  named  they  had  not  been  invited. 

Of  course  all  men  have  a  right  in  this  country  to  go  where  they  please, 
and  when  men  know  or  think  that  they  can  better  their  condition  by 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


103 


changing  their  places  of  residence  it  is  their  duty  so  to  do.  I  am  not  and 
never  was  opposed  to  colored  emigration,  but  1  am  bitterly  opposed  to 
the  wholesale  delusion  which  has  been  practiced  upon  my  people.  When 
the  exodus  from  North  Carolina  began  I  was  astonished,  and  being  a  na¬ 
tive  of  the  State  and  the  editor  of  a  colored  newspaper  I  immediately 
wrote  to  the  most  prominent  colored  men  in  the  State  asking  them  to 
give  to  me  the  cause  of  this  sudden  uprising.  I  could  not  understand 
it.  I  was  more  than  astonished  ;  I  was  bewildered.  I  received  answer 
from  all  of  them  that  there  was  no  cause  for  it ;  that  the  more  ignorant 
class  had  been  deluded  by  three  men,  named  Perry,  Williams,  and  Tay¬ 
lor,  who  by  some  means  unknown  to  them  had  been  North  and  returned 
with  such  glowing  news  that  the  people  could  not  resist  them.  An  in¬ 
vestigation  followed,  and  it  was  ascertained  that  these  three  men  had 
been  among  the  most  ignorant  class  of  the  country  people  and  had  told 
them  fhat  the  United  States  Government  wanted  them  to  go  to  Indiana  ; 
that  the  government  would  give  them  money  to  begin  with  ;  that  they 
would  receive  $1.50  per  day  during  the  winter,  and  from  $2.00  to  $2.50 
per  day  during  the  spring,  summer,  and  fall. 

Some  who  hesitated  were  told  that  they  would  receive  new  suits  of 
clothes  at  Washington.  These  men  registered  the  names  of  those  who 
consented  to  go,  and  charged  them  from  twenty-five  cents  to  two  dollars, 
according  to  their  ability  to  pay.  These  men  called  meetings  in  the  coun¬ 
try  churches,  and,  with  closed  doors,  so  the  press  in  the  eastern  part  of 
North  Carolina  informs  us,  bound  those  whom  they  had  deluded  to  se¬ 
crecy. 

Of  course  the  first  batch  went,  having  sold  all  their  worldly  goods. 
Being  few  in  number  they  were  well  received  and  found  immediate  em¬ 
ployment  in  some  place  designated  by  parties  unknown  to  the  deponent. 

These  wrote  back,  to  their  friends  and  advised  them  to  come,  and  hence 
it  is  easy  to  understand  the  great  exodus  in  North  Carolina. 

I  have  met  Perry  and  charged  him  with  everything  I  have  stated,  and 
he  did  not  deny  a  word  of  it.  He  only  said  in  extenuation  that  the 
money  charged  for  registering  their  names  was  for  the  purpose  of  pay¬ 
ing  his  expenses  to  Indiana  and  back. 

Now,  it  is  true  that  many  who  have  gone,  left  because  of  dissatisfac¬ 
tion.  The  landlord  and  tenant  act  works  greatly  to  their  detriment,  as  it 
does  to  poor  white  men,  so  I  am  informed.  I  have  not  investigated  that 
subject. 

They  are  also  dissatisfied  with  that  section  of  the  new  constitution 
which  takes  from  them  the  privilege  or  right  of  voting  for  their  county 
magistrates,  county  commissioners,  and  school  trustees. 

But  so  far  as  injustice  in  the  courts  is  concerned  they  have  no  rea¬ 
sonable  complaint.  The  colored  solicitor  in  the  district  from  which  these 
people  are  emigrating  told  me  not  more  than  three  weeks  ago  that 
neither  the  judges,  the  officers  of  the  court  or  juries,  made  any  distinc¬ 
tion  on  account  of  color. 

It  was  my  pleasure  to  deliver  the  oration  at  the  celebration  of  the 
seventeenth  anniversary  of  the  emancipation  of  my  race,  at  Baleigh,  on 
the  1st  of  January  instant. 

In  that  city  I  met  people  from  all  parts  of  the  State.  I  talked  freely 
with  them  in  regard  to  the  exodus,  and  all  of  them  were  bitterly  opposed 
to  it.  Those  to  whom  I  talked  were  not  office-holders  dependent  upon 
the  support  of  the  colored  vote — for  you  must  know  that  only  white  Pe- 
publicaus  hold  office  in  North  Carolina — there  may  be  here  and  there  a 
spittoon-cleaner  or  a  messenger,  but  nothing  more,  and  yet  they  with 
one  accord  opposed  this  exodus. 


104 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


James  IT.  Harris,  the  most  prominent  colored  man  in  the  State,  a  man 
who  only  one  year  ago  went  into  every  nook  and  corner  of  the  counties 
from  which  these  people  are  fleeiug,  told  me  that  there  was  not  a  parti¬ 
cle  of  necessity  for  this  exodus. 

Osborne  Hunter,  jr.,  the  editor  of  the  Journal  of  Industry,  who  orig¬ 
inated  the  idea  of  a  colored  State  fair,  and  who  made  it  a  success  une¬ 
qualed  by  any  State  fair  in  the  South,  told  me  that  lie  traveled  over 
every  road  and  by-path  in  that  section,  and  he  saw  no  occasion  for  it. 

Hon.  James  E.  O’Hara,  who  has  testified  before  this  committee,  and 
who  lives  in  the  section  from  which  these  people  come,  told  me  in  North 
Carolina  that  it  was  a  shame.  AY.  Y.  Turner,  who,  as  editor  of  the 
North  Carolina  Republican,  had  been  almost  everywhere  in. that  sec¬ 
tion,  in  the  interest  of  his  paper,  told  me  that  though  he  had  lived  in 
many  sections  of  this  country  he  had  never  seen  poor  people  doing 
better.' 

Governor  Holden,  Richard  Badger,  Col.  Ike  Young,  all  prominent 
radical  Republicans,  say  that  the  colored  people  have  no  such  complaint 
as  would  induce  a  reasonable  person  to  leave  his  home. 

I  might  mention  a  dozen  prominent  colored  Republicans,  none  of 
them  office-holders,  such  as  Hon.  George  Price,  Colonel  Wassom,  who 
has  lived  for  years  in  AYayue  County,  a  county  from  which  so  many 
have  gone,  Hon.  John  S.  Leary,  Hon.  George  Mabson,  and  his  brother 
AYilliam,  of  Edgecourt,  and  others  too  numerous  to  mention,  who  are  bit¬ 
terly  opposed  to  this  exodus.  In  fact,  every  intelligent  colored  and 
white  man  in  the  State  is  opposed  to  it.  Our  six  colored  newspapers 
are  all  fighting  it.  Every  week’s  issue  of  these  papers  contains  lead¬ 
ing  editorials  on  the  subject,  and  1  have  not  failed  weekly  to  say  what  I 
thought  on  the  subject. 

AVitli  malice  toward  none  but  with  charity  for  all,  I  say  that  the  exodus 
from  North  Carolina  is  a  fraud. 

From  some  of  the  Southern  States  the  exodus  may  be  a  blessing,  but 
from  the  Old  North  State  it  is  a  curse.  In  saying  this  we  have  not  in 
mind  those  intelligent  men  who  think  or  know  that  they  can  better  their 
condition.  To  such  men  we  would  say  God  speed  you  and  bless  you  ; 
but  that  is  not  the  class  which  is  leaving  the  State  ;  it  is  that  ignorant 
class  which,  after  it  is  used,  will  ask  for  bread  and  be  given  a  stone,  beg 
for  a  fish  and  receive  a  scorpion. 

t  I  lived  in  the  West  for  two  years  and  a  half,  and  I  never  saw  in  Raleigh, 
N.  C.,  such  a  poor,  ignorant  class  of  colored  people  as  I  saw  in  Oberlin, 
Ohio,  the  paradise  of  colored  people.  There  were  many  rich  colored 
men  there ;  there  were  colored  men  doing  good  business,  but  the  poor 
people  were  poorer  than  any  I  ever  saw  in  any  town  in  North  Carolina. 
Now,  this  was  in  their  heaven.  My  God  !  what  will  they  do  in  Indiana, 
which  up  to  within  a  few  years  had  a  law  on  her  statute  books  that  a 
negro  could  not  live  in  the  State ! 


In  AJrginia,  if  a  colored  man  marries  a  white  woman,  both  are  incar¬ 
cerated  in  the  penitentiary. 

In  Indiana,  if  the  same  deplorable  event  takes  place,  not  only  the 
couple  but  the  officiating  minister  also  suffers. 

Now,  I  am  opposed  to  the  exodus  from  North  Carolina,  for  the  reason 
that  there  is  no  occasion  for  it. 

Nine-tenths  of  those  who  have  gone  west  could  give  no  reason  for 
their  going,  and  one-tenth  said  that  they  left  because  they  were  cheated 
in  their  contracts.  Is  there  any  assurance  that  they  will  not  be  cheated 
in  Indiana? 

In  North  Carolina  the  most  kindly  relations  exist  between  the  white 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


105 


and  colored  people.  At  the  last  celebration  of  the  day  of  the  Emanci¬ 
pation  Proclamation,  the  whites,  all  of  whom  had  owned  slaves,  paid 
three  fourths  of  the  expenses  necessary  for  making  it  a  success.  They 
not  only  did  this  in  Raleigh,  but  in  other  places  where  the  day  was  cele¬ 
brated. 

The  colored  people  as  a  mass  are  more  intelligent  than  in  any 
other  State  in  the  South.  They  always  had  more  opportunities  for  ac¬ 
quiring  an  education.  There  are  at  least  live  schools  in  the  State  where 
they  can  get  a  scholastic  education,  and  almost  every  town  has  a  graded 
school. 

They  have  what  no  other  State  in  the  South  possesses — an  asylum 
for  the  deaf,  dumb  and  blind.  A  Democratic  legislature  has  appropri¬ 
ated  money  for  the  erection  of  an  insane  asylum  ;  at  present  the  colored 
insane  are  in  the  white  asylum,  than  which  there  is  no  liner  in  this 
country. 

The  free  schools  are  open  for  all,  and  colored  teachers  are  always 
employed  in  preference  to  whites. 

There  are  numbers  of  colored  lawyers  who  have  made  a  name  at  the 
bar ;  doctors  who  have  successful  practice ;  farmers  who  own  their 
farms  and  carry  their  own  cotton  to  market.  Why,  Raleigh,  a  city  of 
about  13,000  inhabitants,  half  whose  population  is  colored,  has  grown 
within  the  past  live  years  to  such  extent  that  I  could  scarcely  recognize 
my  native  city.  There  are  more  colored  people  who  own  their  own 
houses  than  there  are  in  the  city  of  Washington.  Their  beautiful  cot¬ 
tages  are  to  be  seen  everywhere. 

As  I  beheld  this  sight  I  said  to  myself,  why  does  not  the  emigration 
begin  at  Washington"? 

in  one  word  I  sav  that  the  cause  of  the  exodus  from  North  Carolina 
can  be  found  in  the  purses  of  the  men  who  furnished  Perry  and  Will¬ 
iams  with  the  means. 

In  my  opinion,  the  time  will  come  when  those  who  have  encouraged 
this  movement  will  repent  iu'sackcloth  and  ashes. 

In  my  humble  judgment,  in  December,  1S80,  many  colored  men  who 
are  now  feasting  on  the  lamb  in  Indiana  will  be  begging  for  money  to 
pay  their  way  back  to  old  North  Carolina. 

And  in  connection  with  that,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  two  papers  which 
have  been  sent  to  me,  and  from  which  I  desire  to  read  some.  These  are 
questions  which  were  asked  by  the  editor  of  the  People’s  Advocate. 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  What  paper  is  that  you  read  from  ? — A.  The  Journal  of  Industry, 
published  in  Raleigh.  It  is  a  paper  published  by  colored  people  ;  and 
now  this  is  what  the  editor  of  the  People’s  Advocate  published  here 
and  said  in  his  paper  : 

[Journal  of  Industry,  Raleigh,  January  17,  1830.] 

THE  EXODUS. 


The  People’s  Advocate  says  : 

“  Notwithstanding  the  protests  made  in  the  United  States  Senate  and  by  some  of  the 
press  of  this  city  and  North  Carolina,  one  hundred  and  seventeen  colored  emigrants 
from  Goldsborough,  N.  C.,  passed  through  here  Tuesday,  en  route  to  Indianapolis.’  It  is  a 
great  pity  that  ‘  these  shiftless  people  ’  are  thus  ‘  duped  to  leave  their  homes  for  the  inhos¬ 
pitable  West.’  Just  wait  until  the  proposed  conference  of  colored  men  takes  place  ; 
then  it  will  stop;  won’t  it,  Brother  Hunter  !  ” 


To  this 


Mr.  Hunter,  the  editor  of  the  Journal, 


who  has  traveled  over 


106 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


every  section  of  that  country  in  the  interest  of  his  paper,  as  Mr.  O’Hara 
knows,  replies  as  follows  : 

In  reply  to  our  confrere’s  interrogatory,  we  will  state,  that  so  far  as  the  ability 
of  “  the  proposed  conference  ”  to  stay  the  tide  of  emigration  is  concerned,  we  know 
nothing. 

Having  frankly  answered  his  question,  we  respectfully  ask  of  him  a  reply  to  the  fol¬ 
lowing,  he  being  an  advocate  of  the  movement,  and  is,  or  should  be,  thoroughly  ac¬ 
quainted  with  all  the  facts  connected  with  it :  If  any  of  our  mechanics  desire  to  emi¬ 
grate  to  Indiana  they  can  find  plenty  of  employment  on  the  same  building  or  in  the 
same  workshop  with  white  men,  as  they  can  do  here  ;  can’t  they,  Brother  Cromwell  ? 
Or  if  any  of  our  farmers  desire  to  go,  they  can  become  “  monarch  of  all  they  survey” 
on  as  easy  terms  as  they  can  and  do  here  ?  Or  if  any  of  our  teachers  desire  to  go,  they 
can  find  as  many  schools  to  teach  and  as  good  salaries,  ranging  from  twenty  to 
one  hundred  dollars  per  month,  as  they  can  and  do  here?  Or  if  any  of  our  lawyers 
desire  to  go,  they  can  find  plenty  of  clients,  as  they  can  and  do  here  ?  Or  if  any  of  our 
doctors  desire  to  go  they  can  find  as  lucrative  a  practice  as  they  can  and  do  here? 
And  last,  but  not  least,  if  any  of  our  politicians  desire  to  go,  they  can  find  their  way  to 
the  legislature  and  halls  of  Congress  as  easily  as  they  can  and  do  here  ?  If  the  colored 
people  are  once  convinced  that  these  things  can  be  done  as  easily  in  Indiana  as  they 
can  and  are  being  done  here  they  will  emigrate  en  masse;  but  if  the  movement  is  to 
be  narrowed  down  to  the  idea  that  “  I  take  the  turkey  and  you  take  the  buzzard,  or 
you  take  the  buzzard  and  I  take  the  turkey,”  it  will  continue  to  meet  the  opposition  of 
the  more  intelligent  colored  people;  “ won’t  it,  Brother”  Cromwell? 

In  the  same  connection,  I  read  a  portion  of  a  speech  delivered  by 
James  II.  Harris,  the  editor  of  the  North  Carolina  Republican,  prefacing 
it  by  saying  that  there  is  a  good  deal  in  this  which  i  do  not  agree  with, 
but  in  the  main  points,  as  they  relate  to  this  exodus,  I  agree  with  him 
fully : 


IION.  JAMES  II.  HARRIS  OX  THE  EXODUS. 

The  conference  of  colored  men  held  in  this  city  last  week  sat  in  extra  session  on 
Thursday  evening  to  consider  the  exodus  movement.  After  the  meeting  was  called  to 
order,  Col.  George  T.  Wassom  arose  and  moved  that  the  chairman,  Hon.  James  H. 
Harris,  be  invited  to  address  the  conference  on  the  grave  and  momentous  subject 
■which  they  had  met  to  discuss,  and  in  relation  to  which  it  was  highly  necessary  to 
take  wise  and  timely  action.  The  motion  was  seconed,  and  prevailed.  Mr.  Harris 
was  then  brought  forward,  though  somewhat  reluctlantly  on  his  part,  and  proceeded  to 
deliver  a  powerful  and  convincing  speech  in  opposition  to  the  emigration  of  the  colored 
people  from  North  Carolina  at  this  time,  and  particularly  under  the  auspices  of  those 
who  are  controlling  the  present  exodus  movement.  He  did  not,  he  said,  wish  to  be 
personal  in  his  allusions,  nor  would  he  be,  further  than  was  necessary  in  order  to  expose 
the  dishonesty  and  wickedness  at  the  bottom  of  this  whole  exodus  business.  There 
are  in  and  about  Washington  City  a  class  of  colored  men  w  ho  may  be  very  appropri¬ 
ately  described  as  political  deadbeats  and  paupers.  Those  men  are  the  self-styled 
and  self-appointed  leaders  of  their  race,  and  with  unblushing  effrontery  assume  it 
as  their  peculiar  prerogative  to  represent  the  colored  people  of  the  whole  South. 
These  are  the  unprincipled  impostors  who,  with  lies  on  their  tongues  and  base  decep¬ 
tion  in  their  hearts,  beguiled  Senator  Windom  into  offering  a  bill  in  the  Senate  to  set 
apart  a  definite  portion  of  national  territory  for  the  colonization  of  the  Southern  ne¬ 
groes.  Then  they  went  forward  and  organized  a  colonization  society,  and  scoured 
the  North,  through  their  agents,  to  collect  money,  professedly  for  the  purpose  of  aiding 
the  poor,  unfortunate  negro  to  escape  from  the  intolerable  oppression  of  his  Southern 
home.  The  money  raised  for  this  philanthropic  object,  however,  reached  their  own 
pockets  and  stuck  there.  Professors  Greener,  Green,  and  one  Wall,  with  their  coadju¬ 
tors  iu  Washington,  are  the  original  promoters  of  the  exodus  movement,  and  on  them 
our  righteous  indignation  and  censure  should  be  unsparingly  poured.  Through  their 
machinations  and  misrepresentations  the  seeds  of  restlessness  and  discontent  have  been 
sowed  among  our  people,  and  the  exodus  is  the  fruit.  These  self-constituted  negro 
leaders,  knowing  as  little  about  the  real  condition  of  the  colored  masses  as  a  Hindoo 
knowTs  of  the  social  status  of  Europe,  have  from  the  first  ignored  the  representative 
colored  men  of  the  South,  and  acted  with  a  contemptuous  disregard  of  their  views  and 
opinions.  They  apparently  take  it  for  granted  that  wre  are  all  an  ignorant  and  credu¬ 
lous  set  of  fools  together,  and  can  be  herded  and  tolled  like  a  drove  of  cattle  whenever 
they,  in  their  superior  wisdom,  shall  deem  us  lit  instruments  to  serve  their  individual 
ends  and  interests.  Like  the  debauched  libertine  and  traitor,  Cataline,  they  have  gone 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


107 


systematically  to  work,  and  plotted  against  their  race  and  the  good  of  their  country 
by  seeking  to  entice  from  this  Southern  portion  of  the  United  States  its  colored  popu¬ 
lation,  merely  to  replenish  their  depleted  purses,  and  to  gain  a  doubtful  prominence 
before  the  public.  We  spurn  these  men  with  their  impudent  and  insultiug  pretensions. 
We  denounce  them  as  the  enemies  of  their  people,  and  warn  colored  men  throughout 
the  South  against  their  baseness  and  falsehoods.  We  want  no  intermeddling  from  such 
a  source  in  their  affairs.  We  are  competent  to  take  care  of  ourselves.  Whenever  our 
condition  shall  become  so  hard  as  to  be  intolerable  ;  whenever  we  shall  become  per¬ 
suaded  of  the  inexpediency  and  impossibility  of  our  remaining  longer  among  the 
Southern  whites  as  free  and  recognized  citizens,  we  will  judge  and  act  for  ourselves, 
and  take  charge  of  our  own  exodus.  We  say  to  Professors  Greener,  Green,  Wall,  and 
to  all  others  engaged  in  the  nefarious  work  of  deluding  the  negro  by  misrepresenta¬ 
tion  and  falsehood — stop  ;  hands  off ;  let  us  alone.  We  indignantly  resent  your  imper- 
tient  interference  in  our  affairs,  and  ask  that  you  will  allow  us  to  manage  for  ourselves 
in  our  own  way.  You  do  not  represent  us,  you  have  no  constituency,  you  have  nothing 
but  impudence,  cheek,  and  cunning,  and  an  inordinate  greed  for  filthy  lucre,  for  which 
you  would  wickedly  mislead  and  basely  sell  us  into  the  hands  of  the  Philistines.  But  we 
will  none  of  you.  It  is  war  to  the  knife  between  you  and  us,  and  we  will  not  sheath 
our  blade  until  we  have  forced  you  down  and  out  from  the  position  which  you  hav.e 
usurped,  and  to  which  you  have  not  the  shadow  of  a  claim,  and  until  we  have  exposed 
you  to  your  race  and  to  the  country  as  the  conspirators  and  swindlers  that  you  are. 

We  readily  concede  the  right  of  the  colored  people  or  of  any  people  to  migrate  at  any 
time  from  one  portion  of  the  United  States  to  another.  This  is  a  free  country,  and  the  privi¬ 
lege  of  locomotion  from  and  to  any  point  within  the  bounds  of  the  Republic  may  be  exer¬ 
cised  by  our  citizens  at  their  option.  We  are  opposed  to  the  exodus  from  this  State,  not 
that  any  colored  man  in  North  Carolina  has  not  the  sole  and  exclusive  right  to  decide  for 
himself  in  all  matters  concerning  his  welfare,  to  select  his  own  home  and  settle  in  any 
tquarter  of  this  broad  laud,  but  we  oppose  it,  we  earnestly  advise  against  it,  because 
nhose  who  have  become  imbued  with  the  spirit  of  emigration  are  deluded.  They  know 
ot  what  they  do.  They  are  acting  upon  a  sudden  impulse  created  by  lying  and 
coundrelly  agents,  who  have  been,  and  are  now,  among  them.  It  cannot  be  denied 
that  we  have  grievances  here  in  North  Carolina,  the  best  of  the  Southern  States,  which 
justify  no  little  discontent  and  serious  complaint. 

The  people  have  been  arbitrarily  deprived  in  part  of  their  sovereignty.  An  un¬ 
scrupulous  party,  in  order  to  entrench  itself  the  more  securely  in  power,  has,  through 
its  legislature,  enacted  odious  laws  and  followed  a  line  of  policy  destructive  of  our 
long-established  and  cherished  forms  of  popular  government.  Our  county  commis¬ 
sioners,  our  magistrates,  and  school  committeemen  are  no  longer  elective  by  the  peo¬ 
ple,  and  whatever  may  be  the  choice  of  the  latter,  they  are  not  permitted  to  select  and 
vote  for  those  whom  they  would  have  represent  and  serve  them  in  these  several  capaci¬ 
ties.  These  are  wrongs  which  ought  not  to  be  borne  by  a  free  and  liberty-loving  peo¬ 
ple ;  nor  will  we  bear  them.  Yet,  we  will  not  llee  the  State  to  escape  these  wrongs. 
We  will  remain  here  and  have  them  redressed.  The  honest  and  patriotic  sentiment  of 
the  State,  irrespective  of  race,  is  opposed  to  the  outrages  of  the  Democratic  party,  and 
there  is  a  strong,  determined,  and  confident  spirit  abroad  among  us  which  will  make 
itself  felt  at  the  ballot-box,  and  which  promises  our  deliverance  from  Democratic  rule 
and  tyranny.  While  it  is  very  natural  that  the  colored  people  in  the  eastern  counties,  who 
have  until  recently  chosen  all  their  local  officers,  should  chafe  under  the  changed  con¬ 
dition  of  things,  it  is  one  of  the  wildest  and  most  impolitic  schemes  for  them  to 
abandon  their  homes  and  emigrate  en  masse  to  Indiana  as  their  temple  ot  refuge. 

Said  the  speaker:  “I  know  something  of  Indiana.  I  lived  there  two  years.  I  have 
traveled  from  one  end  of  the  State  to  the  other,  and  I  am  prepared  to  say,  in  all  candor 
and  sincerity,  that  scarcely  a  comparison  can  be  made  between  Indiana  and  North 
Carolina  that  is  not  in  favor  of  the  latter.  Our  climate  is  more  genial  and  health¬ 
ful.  Our  soil  can  be  made  equally  as  fertile,  and  is  adapted  to  a  far  greater  variety  ot 
products;  while  land,  which  in  Indiana  is  $60  per  acre  and  upwards,  here  in  North 
Carolina  is  $5  per  acre  and  upwards;  in  everyway  as  desirable,  and  in  some  respects 
more  so.  Wages  may  be  higher  there  than  here,  but  in  the  same  proportion  the  cost  ot 
liviug  is  higher.  In  that  State  of  higher  latitude  the  winters  are  rigorous,  and  from 
four  to  six  months  in  duration,  during  which  time  labor  is  generally  unemployed  in 
the  rural  sections,  and  wages  are  at  a  minimum.  Here  in  North  Carolina  we  enjoy,  as 
it  were,  perpetual  summer;  employment  can  be  obtained  the  year  round,  and  no  one 
need  suffer  for  the  necessities  of  life.  Who  can  hesitate  in  choosing  between  these  tv  o 
States,  and  unalterably  deciding  in  favor  of  his  own  upon  learning  that  there  are 
more  beggars  in  two  cities  of  Indiana — Indianapolis  and  Terre  Haute  than  can  be 
found  in  the  whole  State  of  North  Carolina  ? 

“The  colored  people  are  far  more  prosperous  here  than  they  are  or  are  likely  to  be¬ 
come  there.  Here  they  are  better  treated,  experience  greater  kindness  at  the  hands 
of  the  whites,  enjoy  more  impartial  educational  facilities,  and,  which  is  more  than  can 
be  claimed  for  Indiana  or  any*  other  State,  have  charitable  institutions  foi  the  un- 


108 


NEGRO  EXOlJUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


fortunate  of  their  race,  established  and  supported  on  an  equal  footing  with  similar  in¬ 
stitutions  for  the  whites.  In  the  face  of  t  hese  facts,  to  which  others  too  numerous  to 
mention  might  be  added,  what  intelligent  colored  North  Carolinian  can  longer  con¬ 
template  joining  the  ill-advised  and  pernicious  exodus  movement  ?  What  the  people 
need  is  information,  and  that  information  the  plain  and  unvarnished  truth.  They  are 
being  imposed  upon  and  misled.  It.  is  the  imperative  duty  of  prominent  and  repre¬ 
sentative  colored  men  everywhere  through  the  State  to  post  themselves  thoroughly 
by  reading,  by  correspondence,  and  reflection,  and  seek  by  argument,  exhortation,  and 
entreaty  to  stay  the  impetuous  tide  of  emigration,  which  threatens  misfortune,  suffer¬ 
ing,  and  ruin  to  the  hundreds  whom  it  is  sweeping  along,  almost  weekly,  in  its  fatal 
course.” 

Mr.  Harris’s  speech  was  very  elaborate,  and  the  above  is  only  a  synopsis.  It  was 
well  received,  and  created  great  enthusiasm. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  What  conference  was  this  which  Mr.  Harris  refers  to  ? — A.  The 
conference  held  in  North  Carolina,  in  Raleigh,  on  the  15th  of  this 
month. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  For  what  purpope  ? — A.  To  consider  this  exodus. 

Q.  You  say  you  approve  of  some  of  the  things  stated  by  Mr.  Harris, 
and  some  you  do  not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  approve  of  all  that  he  says  about  the  condition  of  the  colored 
people  and  the  folly  of  the  exodus'? — A.  Yes,  sir;  1  approve  of  this. 
There  are  a  good  many  things  in  here  that  1  do  not  approve  of,  but 
they  are  things  like  this,  for  instance,  that  he  refers  to  Captain  Wall, 
that  I  do  not  approve  of. 

Q.  Do  you  approve  of  what  he  says  in  regard  to  the  loss  of  their 
right  of  suffrage  under  the  Democratic  party  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  approve 
of  that,  with  reference  to  that  particular  point,  the  election  of  magis¬ 
trates. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  You  are  and  have  always  been  considered  as  a  straight-out  Re¬ 
publican,  have  you  not? — A.  I  was  always  a  radical  Republican  and 
am  now. 

Q.  And  you  do  not  consider  it  necessary  to  approve  of  this  exodus  in 
order  to  maintain  your  standing  in  the  party? — A.  No,  sir;  because  1 
oppose  it  they  call  me  a  Democrat.  If  I  approve  it  in  Louisiana  and 
Mississippi  then  I  am  all  right,  arid  as  I  oppose  this  from  North  Caro¬ 
lina,  my  own  State,  knowing  that  there  is  no  necessity  for  it,  of  course 
I  am  a  Democrat. 

Q.  As  I  understand  you,  there  are  some  things,  you  say,  to  criticize 
in  North  Carolina? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  political  commonwealth  on  the  face  of  the 
globe  where  the  same  thing  is  not  true? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  think,  despite  the  truth  of  these  things,  that  it  is  better 
for  the  colored  people  to  remain  there  in  North  Carolina  than  to  go  to 
Indiana  or  elsewhere? — A.  I  think  it  is  better  for  them  to  stop  there.  I 
think  North  Carolina  is  a  Republican  State,  and  since  Governor  Vance 
has  come  up  here  to  the  Senate  I  do  not  think  there  is  any  man  in  the 
borders  of  that  State  that  can  carry  it  against  the  Republican  party  or 
against  Sam  Phillips,  who  is  its  best  representative. 

Q.  You  think  Governor  Vance  is  a  strong  man,  then? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
he  is  the  strongest  man  in  the  State. 

Q.  And  Mr.  Phillips  is  the  strongest  man  with  the  Republicans? — A. 
Yes,  sir  ;  he  is  the  strongest  man  with  the  Republicans. 

Q.  What  is  the  secret  of  Governor  Vance’s  strength  ? — A.  Governor 
Vance  has  treated  the  colored  people  better  than  any  man  who  was 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


109 


ever  Governor  of  the  State.  He  gave  them  their  normal  school.  I 
know  that  when  on  the  stump  he  told  them  not  to  vote  for  him,  as  he 
wms  a  Democrat  of  the  very  worst  sort,  and  two  days  after  he  was  elec¬ 
ted  he  made  a  speech  and  promised  them  their  school,  and  in  a  few 
months  afterwards  they  had  it.  He  can  carry  the  State  against  any¬ 
body  down  there,  Democrat  or  Republican,  and  I  do  not  think  anybody 
else  can  carry  it  Democratic,  now  that  he  is  here  in  the  Senate. 

Q.  You  think  you  have  enough  votes  in  the  Republican  party  to  carry 
the  State  down  there  ? — A.  We  have  more  white  and  colored  Republi¬ 
cans  there  than  there  are  in  any  other  State  South  5  we  have  80,000  of 
them. 

Q.  The  composition  of  the  Republican  party  is  largely  colored  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  dictate  the  policy  of  the  Republican  party  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 


Q.  And  the  Republican  party,  you  think,  being  in  perhaps  a  majority, 
will  be  strong  enough  to  enforce  a  liberal  policy  towards  the  colored 
people  ? — A.  \res,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  beyond  that — of  course  I  am  a  Democrat  and  I  expect  you 
to  speak  from  your  own  standpoint  as  a  Republican — but  I  ask  you  to 
take  Governor  Vance ;  has  he  not  a  following  in  his  party  favorable  to 
the  colored  people,  and  to  giving  them  a  fair  chance  with  the  white  peo¬ 
ple  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  or  else  he  would  not  have  given  us  the  normal  school. 
We  also  have  an  asylum  for  the  deaf  and  dumb  ;  it  is  not  as  large  as 
the  white  asylum,  but  it  is  just  as  hue,  and  that  was  given  to  us  by  Gov¬ 
ernor  Vance. 

Q.  You  edit  a  paper  and  take  all  the  colored  papers  from  all  parts  of 
the  United  States,  do  you  not?  Do  you  know  of  any  other  State  that 
does  as  much  for  the  colored  people  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  of  all  that  has 
been  done  by  the  States,  but  there  is  a  school  in  Missouri  at  Lincoln 
Institute,  and  that  I  believe  is  the  only  one  outside  of  North  Carolina 
that  I  know  of,  provided  by  a  Democratic  legislature. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  true  that  they  have  not  such  a  school  in  Indiana  ? — A.  Not 
that  I  know  of;  and  that  is  given  by  a  Democratic  legislature. 

Q.  That  school  in  North  Carolina  was  given  by  a  Democratic  legisla¬ 
ture  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  by  and  through  the  advice  of  a  Democratic  governor? — A. 
And  the  insane  asylum  was  built,  I  think,  since  Governor  Vance  was 
elected. 

Q.  That  was  done  by  a  Democratic  legislature  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  there  is  a  provision  made  now  to  build  a  second  insane  asy¬ 
lum  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  down  at  Goldsboro’. 

Q.  It  is  in  process  of  erection  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  it  is. 

Q.  The  United  States  Government  does  not  give  the  colored  people  a 
separate  insane  asylum  here,  does  it  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  that  you  have  a  deaf  and  dumb  asylum  in  the  course  of 
operation  there  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  as  fine  a  building  as  there  is  in  the 
United  States,  and  the  children  and  teachers  are  all  there  and  doing 
well. 


Q.  What  party  gave  that  to  the  colored  people? — A.  The  Democratic 
legislature. 

Q.  And  taking  all  that  into  consideration,  you  think  it  would  be 
better  for  the  colored  people  to  stay  in  North  Carolina  than  to  go  to 
Indiana  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  what  I  thought,  and  that  is  the  reason 
I  opposed  their  going  to  Indiana. 

On  motion  the  committee  adjourned  to  Friday,  January  30,  1880,  at 
half  past  ten  o’clock  a.  in. 


110 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


SIXTH  HAY. 

Washington,  Friday ,  January  30,  1880. 

The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  its  order  of  adjournment,  at  10.30  a.  m. 

Present,  t lie  chairman  and  all  the  members  of  the  committee. 

The  taking  of  testimony  was  resumed  as  follows  : 

TESTIMONY  OF  CHARLES  N.  OTEY. 

Charles  N.  Otey  (colored)  recalled. 

By  Senator  Yoorhees  : 

Q.  Before  passing  you,  Mr.  Otey,  over  to  Mr.  Blair  for  the  purpose 
of  cross-examination,  if  there  is  anything  that  has  occurred  to  you  since 
your  examination  in  chief  which  you  desire  to  offer  in  explanation  of 
your  testimony,  you  have  the  opportunity  now  to  do  so. — A.  Yes,  sir  • 
I  do  desire  to  make  an  explanation.  I  read  from  the  National  Republi¬ 
can  of  Wednesday  morning,  January  28,  1880  ;  it  is  an  editorial ;  it  is  a 
very  lengthy  one  and  I  read  only  that  part  that  refers  to  me  and  my 
testimony. 

u  We  notice  that  a  colored  citizen  named  Otie” — 

Now,  this  man  who  wrote  this  article  knows  me  as  well  as  anybody 
in  this  room,  as  well  as  I  know  myself  or  anybody  else,  and  yet  he 
spells  my  name  wrong,  u  Otie”;  he  knows  my  name,  for  I  have  written 
over  fifty  articles  for  that  newspaper — 

We  notice  that  a  colored  citizen  named  Otie  has  given  evidence  which  has  made  the 
Democrats  somewhat  hilarious,  but  when  Senator  Blair  shall  have  got  through  with 
shaking  his  testimony  up  and  cleaning  the  wheat  of  truth  from  the  chaff  of  nonsense 
aud  folly  with  which  it  is  mixed,  the  yield  of  wheat  will  be  too  insignificant  to  be 
worthy  of  consideration.  Mr.  Otie  may  be  a  very  good-intentioned  sort  of  person,  but 
his  testimony,  so  far  as  it  has  come  to  our  notice,  appears  to  be  of  the  hack  and  coal 
order,  which  is  marketable  at  cheap  rates.  He  undoubtedly  intended  to  tell  the  truth, 
the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  but  the  reason  given  for  changing  position 
on  the  exodus  is  a  little  too  thin  to  bear  with  much  weight  upon  the  question.  It 
looks  as  if  it  had  been  made  to  order,  and  he  had  undertaken  to  peddle  it  out  for 
Democratic  delectation.  We  may  refer  to  this  again  when  his  wire  is  fully  run  from 
the  reel  and  Senator  Blair  shall  have  got  through  with  straightening  out  his  entangle¬ 
ments  under  a  close  and  rigid  cross-examination. 

I  desire  to  answer  that,  for  I  prefer  not  to  be  misrepresented,  and  so 
I  answer  it  from  my  notes : 

The  National  Republican  intimates  that  I  was  coached  for  the  occa¬ 
sion  when  I  testified  before  this  committee.  In  answer  to  that,  I  say 
under  oath  that  I  have  not  talked  with  a  Democrat  either  on  politics  or 
the  exodus  since  the  summer  of  1872. 

The  same  paper  intimates  that  I  was  bought  up.  In  answer  to  that 
I  will  say  that  there  is  not  enough  money  in  the  United  States  Treas¬ 
ury  to  buy  me.  I  know  that  Republicans  very  frequently  sell  out,  and 
I  doubt  not  that  the  editor  of  the  Republican  was  honest  and  meant 
no  harm  when  he  intimated  that  I  had  engaged  in  a  business  so  com¬ 
mon. 

The  difference  between  my  Republicanism  and  his.  is  this,  viz :  he 
has  been  well  paid  for  all  the  service  lie  has  rendered  the  party,  while  I 
have  never  made  one  cent  out  of  politics,  though  I  have  worked  hard 
for  the  party  all  my  life. 

I  have  never  asked  for  governmental  position  and  never  held  one. 

I  have  great  respect  for  Mr.  Clapp,  aud  will  do  him  the  justice  to  say 
that  had  he  known  me  better  he  would  have  insinuated  less. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  Ill 

His  assistant,  Col.  E.  P.  Brooks,  knows  well  that  no  more  radical  arti¬ 
cles  were  ever  written  for  bis  paper  than  those  1  have  written. 

1  have  never  wavered  in  my  devotion  to  the  principles  of  the  Repub¬ 
lican  party,  but  I  love  my  race  more  than  I  do  party.  1  have  no  objec¬ 
tion  to  Indiana  going  Republican  in  the  coming  election.  I  wish  that 
all  the  States  in  the  Uniou  would  go  that  way. 

I  object  to  deluding  the  ignorant  people  of  my  race.  I  object  to  the 
carrying  them  in  the  midst  of  the  winter  like  so  many  hogs  or  sheep  to 
a  State  that  I  have  always  considered  the  worst  in  the  Union  for  col¬ 
ored  people. 

Why,  in  the  days  of  slavery  there  was  a  law  on  the  statute-books  of 
that  State  that  forbade  the  entrance  of  a  negro  within  its  sacred  pre¬ 
cincts,  and  I  believe  that  so  far  as  action  by  the  legislature  is  con¬ 
cerned  the  law  has  never  been  repealed. 

Within  the  past  two  years  a  negro  outraged  a  white  prostitute  in 
some  town  in  that  State,  and  the  whole  white  population  arose  as  one 
man  and  drove  from  the  town  every  colored  person  that  lived  in  it. 
Governor  Williams  had  to  call  out  the  militia  to  put  a  stop  to  the  whole¬ 
sale  persecution  of  my  race.  This  information  I  got  from  the  news¬ 
papers  of  both  political  parties. 

It  may  be  well  and  good  for  men  who  make  their  living  out  of  the 
party,  to  abuse  me  because  of  my  opposition  to  the  use  of  my  race.  I 
am  a  Republican  because  I  believe  in  the  principles  of  the  party.  I  am 
opposed  to  the  exodus  from  North  Carolina  because  I  am  a  negro. 

The  National  Republican  also  says  that  there  was  much  nonsense  in 
my  testimony.  I  ask  this  committee  to  summon  from  the  old  North 
State  J.  H.  Harris,  Osborne  Hunter,  jr.,  B.  J.  Edwards,  W.  V.  Turner, 
and  Stewart  Ellison,  of  Raleigh,  N.  C. ;  Col.  J.  T.  Wasson,  of  Golds- 
borough  ;  George  Price,  jr.,  of  Wilmington  ;  also,  Col.  George  Mabson,  of 
the  same  city;  William  Mabson,  of  Tarborough — all  radical  colored  Re¬ 
publicans — and  if  they  do  not  corroborate  every  word  I  have  said,  then, 
with  Jim  Anderson,  I  am  willing  to  go  down  in  history  as  the  greatest 
liar  of  the  age. 

I  almost  forgot  to  state  that  I  did  hold  an  office  in  North  Carolina  for 
two  years,  during  which  time  I  was  teaching  school  and  studying  law 
here  in  Washington.  It  was  not  the  office  of  Government  Printer;  nei¬ 
ther  was  it  any  other  sinecure.  I  was,  in  1873,  elected,  while  on  a  visit 
to  my  native  city,  school  trustee  for  the  township  of  Raleigh — that  was 
only  a  fiduciary  trust.  I  wish  that  all  men  would  act  as  honestly  as  I 
did  during  those  two  years.  I  never  saw  a  dollar,  for  there  was  no  dol¬ 
lar  to  be  seen.  I  appointed  all  the  colored  teachers,  and  they  taught 
faithfully,  knowing  that  when  old  Wake  was  able  they  would  be  paid. 
They  were  paid,  but  I  was  in  Washington  and  could  not  get  a  percent¬ 
age.  I  did,  though,  receive  a  good  deal  of  abuse;  for,  unwittingly ,  in  my 
appointments,  I  appointed  no  denomination  but  Methodists  and  Episco¬ 
palians.  Now,  I  was  a  Methodist,  and  my  oldest  brother’s  wife  was  a 
member  of  the  Episcopal  church,  and,  consequently,  all  the  other  de¬ 
nominations  spared  me  not  for  two  years. 

Now,  God  kuows  that  I  made  the  appointments  solely  on  account  of 
the  merit  of  the  applicants,  as  shown  by  the  certificates  presented  to  me 
by  the  examiner.  I  have  never  desired  a  public  office  since. 

Mr.  Clapp  seems  angry  because,  as  he  says,  the  Democrats  were  hila¬ 
rious  over  my  testimony. 

Now,  I  cannot  help  that.  If  the  truth  makes  a  man  happy,  I  think 
that  the  one  who  told  it  ought  to  be  honored,  not  vilified. 

In  the  last  part  of  his  editorial  he  seems  to  threaten  me.  That  has 

X. 


112 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


been  tried  on  me  before  and  would  not  take.  Let  me  say  to  him  that  1 
am  as  honest  as  he  and  as  good  a  Republican  as  he.  without  expectation 
of  reward.  He  knows  about  as  much  of  the  condition  of  the  colored 
people  in  North  Carolina  as  lie  does  about  the  pearly  gates  of  the  New 
Jerusalem. 

Here  before  this  committee  he  testified  that  he  knew  but  little  about 
the  exodus,  having  only  acted  as  treasurer.  1  believe  every  word  that 
he  said,  because  1  believe  him  to  be  an  honest  and  truthful  man. 

Why  should  he  question  me — a  man  identified  with  the  race,  most  in¬ 
terested  in  this  exodus  ?  Three  years  ago,  as  associate  editor  of  the 
People’s  Advocate,  I  wrote  and  published  there  editorials  in  opposition 
to  the  Western  emigration  from  the  South  of  the  people  of  my  race.  I 
did  this  at  a  time  when  there  was  no  stampede — when  there  was  no  ex¬ 
citement  and  no  exodus.  Outside  of  my  duties,  I  study  nothing  but  the 
interests  of  my  race,  and  I  think  that  I  ought  to  be  allowed  to  express 
my  views  without  being  abused  by  anybody. 

Are  colored  men  to  be  denied  a  privilege  which  all  other  races  enjoy  ? 
I  consider  that  man  a  scoundrel  or  a  fool  who  willfully  traduces  another 
because  of  the  honest  expression  of  his  opinions. 

Free  speech  is  guaranteed  by  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States, 
and  by  the  help  of  God  I  intend  to  take  advantage  of  that  amendment 
so  long  as  1  live.  From  the  beginning  I  have  opposed  the  exodus  from 
my  native  State.  I  have  had  no  selfish  motives,  for  the  people  who 
have  gone  West  went  not  from  the  section  in  which  I  live  or  expect  to 
live.  I  have  consistently  opposed  it  for  what  I  consider  the  good  of 
my  race  and  ray  party. 

If  this  be  Democracy  then  let  my  enemies  make  the  most  of  it. 

1  also  desire,  in  talking  about  what  my  testimony  is  based  upon,  to 
read  an  article  published  December  9,  1879,  in  the  Raleigh  Republican, 
taken  from  the  Roanoke  News : 


Enfield,  N.  C.,  Dec.  15,  1879. 

Editor  Roanoke  News : 

Sir:  In  your  issue  of  tlie  lltli  inst.  I  find  tlie  following  paragraph:  “According  to 
James  E.  O’Hara’s  speech  at  the  industrial  fair  recently  held  at  Raleigh,  the  colored 
people  in  Halifax  County  own  thirteen  thousand  acres  of  laud,  &c.” 

Many  persons  question  the  assertion,  and  regard  it  as  a  mere  ipse  dixit  of  mine,  upon 
which  it  would  be,  to  say  the  least,  a  great  presumption  to  give  credence. 

Not  desiring  to  startle  those  who  can  see  no  good  in  the  colored  man,  nor  make  the 
credulous  uneasy,  I  told  only  of  part  of  the  colored  man’s  acquisition  in  this  and  ad¬ 
joining  counties,  but  now  refer  you  to  the  list  of  the  county  for  the  year  1878,  where 
you  will  find  the  fact  by  townships  to  be  as  follows: 

Acres 


Brinkleyville  township 
Bntterwood  township . . 

Caledonia  township - 

Conocanarie  township. 

Enfield  township . 

Faucetts  township - 

Hal i fax  to wnsh ip . . 

Littleton  township.... 
Roseneath  township... 

Palmyra  township . 

Weldon  township . 


2,  609' 

2*> 

1,186 
628- 
2,  006 
216 

3,  458 
2,  479 

2, 228 
769 


Total . 16,601 

Nor  is  this  the  full  amount  with  which  the  colored  man  is  entitled  to  be  accredited, 
because,  after  a  person  arrives  beyond  the  age  to  pay  a  poll  tax,  there  are  no  means  by 
which  you  can  tell  from  the  tax  list  to  which  race  lie  belongs,  thus  in  collecting  the 
fact  we  are  obliged  to  take  those  only  who  are  not  above  the  poll-tax  age  (fifty  years), 
unless  it  be  those  personally  known  to  he  colored,  and  my  memory  of  names  being 
quite  deficient,  but  a  few  are  added  to  those  listing  a  poll. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


113 


The  above  does  not  include  the  many  acre  aud  half-acre  lots  owned  by  colored  people 
in  the  suburbs  of  Enfield,  Halifax,  Scotland,  Neck,  and  Weldon,  nor  does  it  include 
new  town  lots  in  Enfield,  with  substantial,  comfortable  houses  erected  thereon,  sur¬ 
rounded  by  gardens  showing  taste  and  some  culture,  aud  a  decided  air  of  health’  aud 
contentment.  Thirteen  town  lots  in  Halifax  and  at  least  twelve  in  Weldon,  valued  in 
the  aggregate  thousands  of  dollars. 

While  speaking  of  Enfield  it  is  but  just  that  I  should  state  that  the  greater  portion 
of  those  owning  lots  with  comfortable  houses  within  the  corporate  limits  are  indebted 
to  the  kindness  of  James  H.  Parker,  esq.,  who,  after  selling  them  lots,  provided  work 
whereby  they  might,  in  an  easy  manner,  procure  aud  pay  for  their  homes. 

Among  his  many  kind  and  good  deeds,  silently  yet  timely  administered  to  the 
colored  people,  none,  I  dare  say,  can  give  him  more  real  pleasure  than  the  conscious¬ 
ness  of  knowing  that,  through  his  kindness,  many  worthy  merchants  are  now  able  to 
sit  around  their  own  fireside,  and  for  his  acts  of  kindness  he  has  the  love  and  respect 
of  the  colored  people  that  know  him. 

The  colored  people  in  acquiring  land  are  not  contented  at  this  alone,  and  a  day’s 
ride  among  these  people  in  the  country  would  satisfy  the  most  skeptical  that  their 
farms  are  in  a  good  state  of  cultivation,  well  stocked  with  horses,  mules,  cattle,  and 
the  modern  implements  of  agriculture,  and  the  exhibition  at  the  industrial  fair  has 
at  least  taught  many  that  not  only  in  agriculture  and  mechanics,  but  also  in  the  fine 
arts,  the  negro’s  sun  in  North  Carolina  is  above  the  horizon  and  steadily  advancing, 
regardless  of  dark  clouds  aud  rude  storms,  to  a  splendid  meridian. 

All  that  was  said  of  the  counties  of  Nash,  Warren,  and  those  adjacent,  in  the  ad¬ 
dress  will  easily  be  verified  in  the  same  manner  as  the  assertion  about  the  lands  owned 
in  the  county  of  Halifax. 

I  regret  that  newspapers  often  speak  of  the  colored  people  as  “  a  shiftless,  improvi¬ 
dent  class  of  our  population,”  when  the  above  showing  has  no  parallel  in  history, 
added  to  the  further  fact  (painful  though  the  admission  may  be  to  our  white  friends) 
that  the  colored  people  of  the  State  are  far  “ahead  in  the  acquisition  of  property, 
knowledge,  and  culture  of  that  class  known  as  poor  whites”  in  ante-bellum  days;  and 
it  is  no  idle  boast  when  we  say  to  our  white  brethren,  look  well  to  your  laurels  or 
your  boasted  superiority  backed  by  two  thousand  years  of  advantage,  may  vanish 
like  the  mist  before  a  bright  summer’s  sun  er*b  this  people  shall  celebrate  its  centen¬ 
nial  jubilee  of  liberty.  Regardless  of  Emigration  Aid  Society,  Kausas  Pacific  Rail¬ 
way  agents,  county  boards  of  canvassers,  who  subvert  the  will  of  the  people  and  send 
the  defeated  candidate  to  the  national  legislature,  while  they  strain  at  a  guat  and 
swallow  a  camel;  the  bulk  of  the  colored  people  will  remain  in  North  Carolina,  shar¬ 
ing  in  common  with  other  citizens  her  weal  or  her  woe,  building  up  her  waste  places 
and  assisting  her  to  take  that  rank  among  her  sister  States  of  the  American  Union 
that  she  is  eminently  deserving  to  take. 

A  slight  glance  backward  at  the  past  decade  will  show  even  to  the  most  casual  ob¬ 
server  that  the  negro  in  North  Carolina  and  the  majority  of  the  Southern  States  will 
not  have  to  compete  in  the  race  of  life  with  the  sturdy  sou  of  Erin’s  isle,  the  keen¬ 
witted  Scotchman,  the  money-saviug  German,  nor  in  tact  any  of  the  European  emi¬ 
grants  annually  thronging  our  shores,  for  before  the  pleasant  “Westward  ho”  shall 
have  lost  talismauic  sweetness  to  the  ear  aud  heart  of  the  foreign  emigraut,  our  waste 
places  shall  have  been  built  up,  aud  hill  aud  dale  smile  as  they  acknowledge  and  pay 
tribute  to  the  colored  man’s  ownership.  Another  fact  in  this  connection  worthy  of 
notice  is,  that  not  even  with  the  heirs  to  ancestral  estates  will  the  colored 
man  long  have  to  contend  for  its  ownership  or  fight  in  his  efforts  to  acquire 
title  to  broad  acres  or  fertile  fields,  for  it  cannot  be  denied  that  a  majority 
of  our  white  young  men  flee  the  farm  as  though  pestilence  and  death  held 
high  carnival  there;  and,  whether  obtained  by  device,  gift,  or  marriage,  farms  are 
often  deserted,  their  young  owners  acting  in  many  instances  as  though  they  felt  it 
more  honorable  to  be  allowed  to  say  small  nothings  to  or  smile  at  the  belles  of  fashion 
from  behind  a  yard  stick,  at  a  certain  monthly  stipend,  or  more  profitable  to  deal  out 
liquid  poison  to  the  thoughtless  and  unwary,  than  to  beau  independent  farmer  or  me¬ 
chanic,  while  hundreds  seek  professions  and  occupations  leading  to  fortune  and  fame, 
but  never  reaching  the  goal,  and  lauds  thus  abandoned  must  in  the  very  nature  of 
things  fall  in  the  possession  of  the  colored  man,  who  is  desirous  of  obtaining  it  when 
that"desire  is  coupled  with  the  means  or  other  ability  to  pay  for  it. 

Aud  yet  another  cause  why  the  colored  man  will  remain  here  and  increase  in  wealth 
and  assist  in  building  up  the  State  as  he  builds  himself  up :  In  Eastern  North  Carolina 
the  most  valuable  and  productive  lands  are  the  swamp  lands  and  river  bottoms,  which 
to  properly  drain  aud  ditch  would  impoverish  their  present  owners,  who  must  either 
allow  them  to  lie  waste,  taxed  without  yielding  profit,  or  sell  them  on  easy  terms  to 
the  colored  man,  who  alone  is  not  afraid  of  their  miasmatic  influence,  and  who,  by  his 
own  brain  and  sinew,  will  ditch,  drain,  cultivate,  and  cause  the  same,  now  useless,  but 
fertile,  land,  alter  a  few  years,  to  smile  beneath  a  golden  harvest. 

In  face  of  the  foregoing  facts  we  must  weld  and  strengthen  the  bond  of  sym- 

8  EX 


114 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


pathy  ami  kindness  now  existing  between  the  white  and  colored  people,  and  if  possi¬ 
ble  make  it  firmer  and  more  durable.  A  higher  respect  by  both  must  be  given  to  every 
bargain  and  agreement  made,  contract  must  be  faithfully  executed  by  both  parties,  an 
earnest  effort  by  all  to  make  each  other  feel  and  realize  that  fact  that  we  are,  by  no 
act  of  our  own,  but  by  the  decree  of  God  himself,  destined  to  inhabit  together,  whether 
for  good  or  evil,  this  fair  land,  and  that  whether  it  be  good  or  ill  we,  and  we  only,  arc 
the  makers  thereof. 

Those  who  have  accustomed  themselves  to  look  at  the  negro  only  from  the  dark  side 
of  the  picture,  often  say,  “  If  the  negro  would  only  stop  stealing  I  would  tolerate  him 
better,”  meaning  by  this  pseudo  sympathy  notan  individual,  but  the  race.  I  will  say, 
that  while  I  neither  excuse,  justify,  nor  apologize  tor  the  colored  man  who  steals  or 
commits  crime,  you  cannot  judge  the  entire  race  by  these  few,  nor  can  you  hold  the 
race  responsible.  Can  you  judge  the  entire  race  of  Jews  by  a  Fagan  or  Shy  lock? 
Certainly  not.  Do  you  judge  the  white  race  by  its  Tweeds,  its  bank  robbers,  its  de¬ 
faulting  presidents,  treasurers,  cashiers,  its  midnight  burglars,  and  myriads  of  thieves 
and  rogues  ?  Certainly  not.  Then  justice  demands  the  same  measurement  and  judg¬ 
ment  tor  the  colored  race;  nothing  more  nor  nothing  less. 

With  all  the  parade  and  obloquy  cast  upon  crimes  committed  by  the  colored  people 
in  this  and  adjoining  counties,  I  venture  the  assertion  that  there  is  no  place  in  the 
American  Union,  or  elsewhere,  where  high  crimes  are  less,  in  accordance  with  the  pop¬ 
ulation,  than  in  Eastern' North  Carolina. 

To  the  colored  people  I  will  say  you  have  done  well  in  the  past  ten  years,  but  you 
can  and  must  do  better  in  the  future.  March  manfully  up  the  path  of  duty  until  you 
reach  the  zenith  ;  work  hard  and  untiring;  hold  and  save  for  old  age  all  you  acquire  by 
honest  toil;  educate  your  children;  improve  the  morals  of  your  societies;  shuu  grog¬ 
shops;  and  by  the  aid  of  God,  who  has  helped  us  thus  far,  nothing  can  prevent  us 
from  enjoying  a  bright  and  prosperous  future. 

JAS.  E.  O’HARA. 


By  the  Chairman 

Q.  Have  you  entertained  other  views  than  these  ? — A.  1  have  not. 

Q.  You  have  always  expressed'the  same  sentiments  with  reference  to 
the  exodus  movement  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  went  into  the  Emigrant  Aid 
Society,  as  I  thought,  to  aid  those  people  who  were  fleeing  from  persecu¬ 
tion  in  the  South,  and  I  said  I  would  go  into  it  for  no  other  purpose. 

Q.  Have  you  any  views  of  your  own,  expressed  at  auy  other  time, 
which  you  desire  to  put  into  the  record? — A.  I  have  an  article  which  1 
published,  and  which  was  republished  in  every  part  of  North  Carolina. 

Senator  Vance.  I  think  it  would  be  fair  to  the  witness  if  he  would 
just  say  that  he  has  held  the  same  views  all  the  time,  and  that  on  other 
dates  previous  to  this  he  had  written  certain  articles  expressing  those 
views,  and  giving  the  dates. 

The  Witness.  This  article  was  written  before  there  was  any  move¬ 
ment  made  to  investigate  the  exodus  movement,  December  13,  1879.  I 
wrote  it  myself,  and  it  is  headed  “A  Great  Shame. ??  It  was  at  the  time 
some  of  these  men  came  to  this  city  for  the  first  time.  I  did  not  con¬ 
sult  anybody  about  it,  but  I  wrote  the  article  of  my  own  volition  ;  and 
while  I  think  a  great  deal  of  Mr.  Wall  and  these  other  gentlemen  per¬ 
sonally  I  cannot  agree  with  them  about  this  movement. 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  Are  we  to  understand,  Mr.  Otey,  that  all  that  you  have  stated  and 
read  here  is  sworn  to  by  you? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  make  these  extracts  and  all  a  part  of  your  oath.  Before  I 
come  to  the  papers  you  have  quoted  I  want  to  ask  you  a  few  general 
questions.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  North  Carolina? — A.  1  lived 
there  until  I  was  Hi  or  17  years  old. 

Q.  When  did  you  leave  there? — A.  In  18G7  I  left  there — in  August. 
I  was  born  in  1851. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go  from  there? — A.  To  Oberlin,  Ohio,  and  staid 
there  until  1  SGI).  1  entered  a  class  there  and  staid  in  it  three  months. 

Q.  When  have  you  beeu  back  to  North  Carolina  ? — A.  Sometimes 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


115 


each  year  in  vacation  ;  sometimes  every  two  years  in  vacations,  and  in 
January,  which  would  make  it  average  every  year.  I  generally  go  in 
August  and  stay  through  the  summer,  and  then  go  back  at  Christmas. 

Q.  When  were  you  there  last  ? — A.  The  31st  of  last  December. 

Q.  At  whose  invitation  did  you  go? — A.  By  the  invitation  of  the 
whole  people  of  the  county  of  Wake  to  deliver  the  address  on  the  day 
of  the  celebration  of  the  emancipation  proclamation. 

Q.  What  was  the  subject  of  your  address? — A.  What  the  colored 
people  had  already  achieved  and  what  they  ought  to  do  for  further 
progress. 

Q.  Was  the  exodus  the  subject  of  it  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  spoke  not  a  half 
minute  on  it. 

Q.  You  said  you  were  invited  by  the  whole  people  of  the  county  ; 
what  do  mean  by  it? — A.  I  mean  that  the  colored  people  who  came  to 
the  court-house  to  a  meeting  elected  me  unanimously  as  the  orator  of 
the  day. 

Q.  Did  they  pay  your  expenses  there  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  paid  my  own. 

Q.  Did  you  say  anything  in  your  address  to  discourage  the  exodus  ? 
— A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Had  you  any  letter  from  anybody  on  that  subject  ? — A.  No.  sir. 

Q.  Nothing  of  that  kind  was  embodied  in  your  address  ? — A.  No, 
sir.  This  was  the  third  time  I  had  spoken  there  on  a  similar  occasion, 
and  while  I  was  there  I  spoke  to  parties  all  the  way  through  the  State 
from  every  part  of  it,  not  on  this  subject  particularly. 

Q.  What  you  said  on  the  subject  of  the  exodus,  I  suppose,  you  wrote 
after  you  got  there? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  morning  before  I  made  my  ad¬ 
dress. 

Q.  Did  you  oppose  the  exodus  from  North  Carolina? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  favor  it  from  elsewhere? — A.  Yes,  sir;  wherevei  they  are 
oppressed. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  it  is  a  very  insignificant  affair  in  North  Carolina 
as  compared  with  what  it  is  from  other  States? — A.  No,  sir.  I  know  it 
has  not  stopped  there  yet. 

Q.  Taking  it  up  to  the  present  time,  how  mauy  do  you  think  have 
gone  from  North  Carolina? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  think  3,000  people  are  a 
pretty  large  number  to  pick  up  and  leave  a  State  witnout  cause. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  3,000  have  gone? — A.  Somebody  said  so  here 
the  other  day,  that  there  had  been  2,500  or  3,000. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  Captain  Wall  said  afterwards  that  he  did  not 
know  that  that  was  true? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  that  went  into  the  news¬ 
papers  as  the  substance  of  his  testimony. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  the  railroad  agent  testify  as  to  the  number  who 
have  gone  from  North  Carolina  ? — A.  I  heard  him  testify  when  he  said 
he  would  take  as  many  as  wanted  to  go  to  Indiana,  and  then  would  go 
out  there  and  bring  them  back  again. 

Q.  Did  you  read  his  statement  in  which  lie  said  there  were  not  200 
men  that  had  gone  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  him  say  he  had  sold  all  the  tickets,  and  that  the 
whole  number  would  not  exceed  704  men,  women,  and  children;  and 
when  cross-examined  he  said  200  would  cover  the  entire  number  of  men 
who  had  gone? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  your  information  that  3,000  had  gone? — A. 
From  what  Captain  Wall  said.  I  did  not  hear  all  of  his  statement,  and  I 
only  took  it  from  what  I  saw  in  the  newspapers. 

Q.  Well,  from  what  this  railroad  agent  said,  do  you  think  it  is  a 


116 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


startling  political  movement  ? — xY.  I  have  not  given  my  opinion  as  to 
that. 

Q.  Now,  you  say  it  is  a  great  political  movement,  and  that  that  fact 
drove  you  out  of  the  Emigrant  Aid  Society ;  now,  this  agent  has  testified 
that  he  sold  all  the  tickets,  and  that  there  are  not  200  men  who  have 
gone  to  Indiana,  do  you  think  that  a  very  startling  political  matter? — 
A.  No;  I  do  not  think  so. 

C>.  Do  uotyou  think  thus  far  it  is  very  insignificant  as  compared  with 
the  movement  from  other  States  of  the  South,  Mississippi  and  Louisi¬ 
ana,  for  instance? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  these  colored  people  are  not  oppressed  in  North 
Carolina? — A.  I  know  they  are  not,  and  if  I  had  the  money  I  would  go 
down  there  into  every  city  and  township  and  advise  then  not  to  leave 
North  Carolina. 

Q.  You  stated  in  your  testimony  “that  it  cannot  be  denied  that  we 
have  grievances  ” ;  if  that  is  true,  what  are  they  ? — A.  Well,  perhaps  this 
landlord  and  tenant  act  is  one  of  the  grievances.  I  do  not  know  to 
what  extent  it  might  become  such,  for  I  have' not  examined  it,  but  the 
colored  people  think  it  bears  hard  on  them  in  some  respects  ;  and  imme¬ 
diately  after  Governor  Yance  was  elected  the  constitution  was  changed 
so  as  to  give  the  legislature  the  right  to  appoint  the  magistrates  in  all 
the  counties  ;  and  here,  in  a  county  where  there  are  1,200  or  1,500  lie- 
publican  majority,  all  the  courts  are  in  the  hands  of  the  Democrats. 
The  legislature,  being  Democratic,  appointed  Democratic  magistrates  in 
those  counties,  and  they  appoint  county  commissioners,  and  they  select 
the  school  commissioners  in  all  the  townships.  The  colored  people, 
having  had  the  right  before  that  of  electing  their  magistrates,  felt 
aggrieved  at  this  change.  The  colored  people,  having  had  and  ex¬ 
ercised  the  right  of  suffrage  for  only  a  few  years,  felt  aggrieved  at 
having  it  taken  away.  I  have  talked  with  them  about  it,  and  that 
is  their  feeling.  Now,  a  question  was  brought  up  here  the  other  day 
about  the  defeat  of  Mr.  O’Hara  for  Congress  and  about  votes  being 
thrown  out;  but,  as  I  understand  it,  iu  most  of  the  counties  where  that 
was  done,  it  was  done  by  these  Kepublican  supervisors. 

Q.  Are  these  the  only  grievances  you  have  heard  of? — A.  No,  sir  ;  1 
have  met  several  men,  some  of  them  very  intelligent  colored  men,  in 
Captain  Wall’s  office,  who  said  they  were  cheated  in  their  bargains. 
One  of  them  said  he  had  bought  a  farm  and  agreed  to  pay  $2,000  for  it, 
and  after  paying  $1,800  on  it,  he  found  that  it  did  not  belong  to  the 
man  from  whom  he  had  bought  it.  1  told  him  he  ought  to  have  gone 
to  the  court  of  record  and  learned  the  facts,  but  that  I  thought  he  was 
more  likely  to  be  cheated  in  Indiana  than  he  was  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  Yrou  seem  to  have  a  poor  opinion  of  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  these  people  do  go  to  the  Western  States,  where  would  you  ad¬ 
vise  them  to  go? — A.  Where  they  can  get  lauds  from  the  government 
at  $1.25  an  acre,  and  where  they  can  live  in  peace  and  comfort  on  their 
own  property.  If  they  could  be  directed  to  some  such  place  as  that,  1 
would  work  for  it  myself. 

Q.  Well,  from  youropiniou  of  Indiana,  I  am  afraid  you  think  it  is  a 
poor  State,  and  your  testimony  would  destroy  the  white  emigration  ? — 
A.  No  ,  sir  ;  I  hardly  think  it  will.  The  colored  people,  you  know,  can¬ 
not  compete  with  the  Germans  and  Irish  as  laborers. 

Q.  Did  you  know  of  any  discriminations  in  the  administration  of  jus¬ 
tice  in  the  courts? — A.  No.  sir. 

/ 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any  ? — A.  No,  sir.  e 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  a  case  in  Greensborough  where  a  colored 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


117 


man  stole  75  cents  and  was  sent  to  the  penitentiary  for  five  years  ? — A. 
I  do  not  know  ;  it  may  be  possible.  They  have  a  law  in  North  Carolina 
like  they  have  in  Virginia  to  punish  petit  larceny,  but  they  have  no 
whipping-posts  like  they  have  in  Delaware. 

Q.  Do  you  think  a  white  man  would  be  sent  to  the  penitentiary  for 
five  years  for  stealing  that  amount  of  money  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  tell  you 
there  was  a  man  down  there  who  stole  a  knife  from  another  man  :  it  was 
during  the  war;  but  it  was  after  the  war  when  he  was  brought  up.  He 
was  convicted  and  taken  to  the  public  whipping  post  and  whipped  for  it. 

Q.  What  year  was  that  ? — A.  I  do  not  remember,  sir,  now. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Who  was  governor  at  that  time  ? — A.  I  think  Governor  Vance, 
Senator.  I  say  they  whipped  a  white  man  so  they  could  get  a  chance 
to  whip  about  five  hundred  negroes.  They  whipped  many  of  them 
afterwards. 


By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  You  think  they  took  up  and  whipped  a  white  man  so  as  to  justify 
the  whipping  of  about  500  negroes  ? — A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  think  a  State  where  they  whip  one  white  man  so  as  to  get 
an  excuse  to  whip  500  negroes  is  a  good  place  for  a  colored  man  to  live 
in? — A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not;  but  that  was  at  another  time.  The  State 
was  under  martial  law,  and  Colonel  Mumford  was  there.  He  came  out 
with  the  troops,  and  demanded  the  stopping  of  this  whipping.  I  said 
they  had  been  doing  it  for  some  time,  and  he  wanted  an  end  put  to  it. 
Judge  Fowl  was  judge  of  the  court  at  that  time,  and  that  was  in  1865, 
I  think. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  Republicans  take  delight  in  the  whipping  of 
colored  people  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  say  that. 

Q.  I  read  another  statement  here  from  a  North  Carolina  paper  again. 
At  the  fall  term  of  1879  of  the  circuit  superior  court  a  colored  man 
named  Crutch  held  was  put  on  trial  for  stealing  an  old  spade.  The  evi¬ 
dence  was  of  such  a  character  that  the  judge  charged  the  jury  in  favor 
of  the  prisoner,  but  in  defiance  of  the  charge  they  brought  in  a  verdict 
of  guilty.  The  judge,  who  was  anxious  to  be  the  Democratic  candidate 
for  governor,  though  he  had  charged  the  jury  in  favor  of  the  prisoner, 
did  not  hesitate  a  moment  to  sentence  him  to  the  penitentiary  for  two 
years.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  that  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  never  heard  of  that. 

Q.  You  never  heard  of  any  of  this  sort  of  thing,  and  yet  T  have  a 
large  number  of  them  cited  here  ? — A.  No,  sir;  but  I  will  say  that  I 
see  the  colored  men  who  are  in  the  penitentiary  are  treated  the  same  as 
the  white  men.  I  say  for  some  classes  of  crimes  they  are  all  convicted 
just  the  same.  Up  North  they  do  not  send  people  to  the  penitentiary 
for  petit  larceny,  but  they  do  down  there.  I  believe  myself,  as  a  Re¬ 
publican,  that  the  law  was  made  for  the  purpose  of  disfranching  colored 
men.  Jf  a  colored  man  steals  a  chicken  he  is  pretty  liable  to  be  sent  to 
the  penitentiary. 

Q.  You  think  the  law  is  made  to  disfranchise  the  colored  man  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  statement  includes  North  Carolina  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  they  disfranchised  when  they  are  sent  to  the  penitentiary  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  if  they  are  sent  to  the  penitentiary,  unless  they  are  par¬ 
doned  out,  it  takes  away  their  right  to  vote  ;  but  the  trouble  is  that 
you  can  hardly  tell  one  from  the  other,  and  they  go  off  somewhere  else 
and  vote  all  the  same. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  a  State  that  passes  such  laws  as  that  is  a  good 


118 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


place  for  the  colored  man  to  live  ? — zY  Yes,  sir  ;  they  make  no  discrim¬ 
ination  in  the  execution  of  them. 

Q.  Does  it  indicate  a  very  kindly  feeling  and  treatment  on  the  part 
of  the  whites  towards  the  colored  people? — A.  Well,  Senator,  I  say 
again  that  I  never  saw  such  kindly  treatment  accorded  by  white  people 
to  black  people  as  is  the  case  in  North  Carolina.  I  will  bring  you  up  a 
reminiscence  to  show  you.  When  Fort  Fisher  was  captured,  I  went  to 
take  a  dispatch  to  Governor  Vance.  I  was  a  telegraph  messenger.  I 
carried  the  dispatch  to  his  house  from  general  somebody,  and  when  I 
got  to  the  house  it  was  about  twelve  o’clock  at  night.  I  went  into  the 
bouse  and  gave  the  governor  the  dispatch.  I  was  a  pretty  sassy  boy 
about  that  time,  and  he  said  for  me  to  waft  for  the  dispatch  in  reply. 
I  said  I  was  sleepy  and  wasn’t  going  to  do  it.  He  told  me  to  wait,  and 
took  me  into  his  room  and  got  a  pillow  and  put  me  to  sleep  on  the  floor 
until  he  wrote  his  dispatch  and  got  ready  to  send  it  back. 

Q.  How  do  you  account  for  it  that  things  are  in  so  good  a  condition 
for  the  colored  people  in  North  Carolina  and  not  in  other  States? — A. 
Because  in  most  of  the  other  States  they  have  no  white  Republicans, 
while  down  there  in  North  Carolina  we  have  30,000  to  40,000  white 
voters,  who  belong,  some  of  them,  to  the  most  respectable  classes. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  white  Republicans  there  are  in  a  large  measure 
responsible  for  the  good  condition  of  that  State  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  we 
have  plenty  of  them.  I  think  the  State  itself  is  a  Republican  State, 
and  no  man  can  carry  it  in  a  Presidential  race  against  the  Republican 
candidates  except  it  be  Governor  Vance,  and  l  hope  he  will  not  go 
down  there  this  fall.  I  want  the  State  to  go  Republican,  and  Indiana, 
too,  if  we  can  get  it. 

Q.  If  you  were  a  Radical  Republican,  would  you  not  wantthe  Repub¬ 
licans  to  stay  there  in  the  State? — A.  Yes,  sir;  because  I  think  they 
are  doing  well  enough,  and  believing  the  State  to  be  Republican,  I 
want  to  keep  it  so. 

Q.  Is  your  Republicanism  of  that  order  that  you  want  to  keep  these 
people  in  North  Carolina  for  their  votes? — A.  No,  sir  ;  not  particularly. 
You  can  take  from  3,000  to  5,000  out  of  the  State,  and  we  still  can 
carry  the  State,  unless  Governor  Vance  is  a  candidate. 

Q.  Do  not  you  think  it  is  a  very  bad  policy  to  take  them  from  North 
Carolina  and  risk  the  loss  of-  the  State,  when  you  can  take  them  from 
Kentucky  much  easier? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  it  is  very  bad  policy,  es¬ 
pecially  while  there  are  about  10,000  in  this  town  that  you  can  take  up 
and  carry  away  without  detriment  to  anybody. 

Q.  You  think  it  bad  policy  for  the  Republicans  to  advise  this  emigra¬ 
tion  ? — A.  I  do  not  say  that  anybody  is  taking  the  lead  in  this  matter 
as  a  political  movement ;  but  I  have  heard  men  say  so. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  it  ? — A.  Only  what  I  stated  in  my  first 
testimony. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  anybody  mention  it,  except  Mendenhall  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  with  any  Republicans  about  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  written  about  it ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  frequently. 

Q.  You  say  you  only  heard  Mr.  Mendenhall  mention  it  ? — A.  No,  sir; 
I  do  not  say  that  I  only  heard  him. 

Q.  V  hat  others  did  you  hear? — A.  That  is  another  question. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  other  person  whom  you  heard  advise  it  for 
apolitical  measure? — A.  No,  sir;  not  bynames.  He  is  the  only  man 
who  said  it  in  a  public  speech.  Private  conversation  in  which  the  mat¬ 
ter  has  been  mentioned  is  another  thing.  I  do  not  think,  Mr.  Chair- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  119 

man,  I  am  caMed  upon  to  give  away  tlie  private  conversations  of 
friends. 

Q.  We  would  be  glad  to  have  any  proof  that  the  Republican  party  is 
engaged  in  this  movement — anybody  that  you  have  heard  advise  it  for 
political  purposes  ;  how  many  have  you  heard  t — A.  I  do  not  remember 
the  number. 

Q.  Then  you  decline  to  name  anybody  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  because  the 
only  man  who  said  it  publicly  was  Mendenhall.  The  rest  of  them  said 
it  privately,  and  unless  I  am  forced  to  do  so  by  order  of  the  committee, 
I  will  not  call  their  names. 

Q.  Then  there  might  have  been  two  or  a  hundred? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  prominent  Republicans? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  were,  and 
active. 

Senator  Windom.  We  insist,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  he  shall  state  the 
names.  Here  is  a  charge  brought  against  prominent  Republicans  who 
advised  this  exodus  for  a  political  purpose,  and  we  insist  that  he  shall 
give  the  names. 

The  Chairman.  I  would  have  no  objection  to  his  doing  so  myself, 
but  I  think  the  witness  has  the  right  to  withhold  his  private  conversa¬ 
tions. 

Senator  Blair.  We  insist  that  he  shall  give  us  the  names.  We  want 
him  to  tell  who  they  are,  that  we  may  call  them  as  witnesses  to  see 
whether '.or  not  they  have  said  any  such  thing  to  this  witness.  We  do 
not  believe  it. 

The  Chairman.  I  will  state  that  we  have  gone  along  very  loosely 
with  reference  to  this  matter.  We  have  sought  a  number  of  times  to 
get  some  information  from  the  reports  and  minutes  of  this  Emigrant 
Aid  Society,  and  Mr.  Wall  and  Mr.  Fearing  have  promised,  both  of 
them,  to  bring  those  reports  to  the  committee,  and  they  have  not  done  it. 

Senator  Blair.  That  is  not  the  point,  Mr.  Chairman,  here.  If  this 
witness  says  he  does  not  remember  the  names,  that  is  the  end  of  it. 

The  Chairman.  This  is  an  open  investigation  of  this  subject,  but  I 
am  not  one  of  those  kind  of  men  who  force  private  letters  and  conversa¬ 
tions  from  witnesses. 

The  Witness.  I  will  say  for  the  benefit  of  the  committee  that  this 
is  the  reason  why  I  do  not  desire  to  give  the  names,  while  perfectly 
able  to  do  so  :  that  men  cannot  speak  their  sentiments  upon  some  sub¬ 
jects  here  in  Washington  without  being  turned  out  of  office  and  the 
positions  that  they  hold,  and  it  is  to  protect  my  friends  in  that  regard 
that  I  decline  to  give  the  names. 

By  Mr.  Windom: 

Q.  What  positions  are  they  in? — A.  They  are  men  who  talked  hon¬ 
estly  to  me,  and  who  might  lie  forced  out  of  their  places  on  the  first 
opportunity  for  having  given  away  their  opinions  on  the  political  nature 
of  this  movement. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  Then  these  were  men  who  agreed  with  you  in  your  opinion  of  it  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  I  ask  you  for  the  names  of  the  men  who  mentioned  to  you  that 
this  thing  should  be  done  for  political  purposes. — A.  I  never  said  but 
one  of  them  did ;  I  also  think,  Mr.  Senator,  that  you  should  cross- 
examine  me  upon  the  examination  of  Saturday,  and  not  go  off  into  this 
original  matter. 


120 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


The  Chairman.  As  I  understand  the  witness,  he  speaks  of  persons 
who  have  talked  with  him  about  this  being  a  political  movement,  and 
who,  like  him,  are  opposed  to  it,  and  he  fails  to  mention  their  names 
because  they  might  be  forced  out  ot  their  positions  in  consequence  of 
these  opinions. 

Senator  Blair.  The  point  made  by  the  witness  was  that  this  was  a 
movement  urged  forward  by  these  prominent  Republicans,  and  he  tries 
to  fix  this  responsibility  upon  the  Republican  party,  and  mentions  that 
two  or  a  hundred  have  stated  to  him  that  it  was  a  political  movement; 
and  we  want  the  names  of  these  men.  We  want  to  defend  the  Republi¬ 
can  party  from  this  charge.  This  man  refuses  to  give  the  names  of  the 
persons  by  whom  it  can  be  proved  one  way  or  the  other,  or  by  whom 
his  testimony  can  be  contradicted. 

The  Witness.  In  the  first  place  I  have  not  charged  it  on  the  Repub¬ 
lican  party.  There  is  not  a  word  of  mine  or  a  paper  you  can  get  to 
prove  it  by.  I  simply  said  that  I  was  in  that  society;  that  a  man  in 
that  society  got  up  and  made  a  statement  that  it  would  be  a  good  thing 
to  divert  this  exodus  from  Kansas  to  Indiana,  as  it  was  a  doubtful 
State,  and  he  suggested  taking  them  from  North  Carolina.  I  have 
never  made  any  charge  upon  the  Republican  party  in  connection  with  it. 

Q.  You  do  not  mean  to  be  understood  as  making  any  charge  on  the 
Republican  party  as  a  party  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  no  testimony  to  prove  that  it  is  interested  in  the 
movement? — A.  No,  sir;  I  simply  said  that  I  believed  it  from  hearing 
men  talking  about  it.  I  do  not  believe  that  Captain  Wall,  Mr.  Holland, 
or  the  others  have  made  money  out  of  it,  but  from  that  speech  which 
was  made  there  that  night  I  believed  it  was  a  political  movement,  and 
I  was  tired  of  seeing  my  people  hauled  round  the  country  like  so  many 
hogs  for  political  purposes. 

By  Mr.  Windom: 

Q.  Then  I  understand  that  the  two  or  a  hundred  who  talked  to  you 
were  prominent  Republicans,  and  agreed  with  you  that  these  people  should 
not  be  carried  there  for  political  purposes? — A.  lam  goiug  to  answer 
your  question,  and  will  say  to  you  that  we  did  not  agree  that  they  should 
not  be  taken  there  for  political  purposes.  We  thought  they  should  not 
be  induced  to  go  there  for  any  purpose,  as  they  were  better  off  in  North 
Carolina  than  they  could  possibly  be  in  Indiana;  but  if  they  were  going 
we  were  in  favor  of  their  voting  the  Republican  ticket.  .1  had  no  ob¬ 
jections  to  their  going  there  at  all  if  they  were  to  be  cared  for  when 
they  got  there. 

Q.  Will  you  answer  my  question  ? — A.  What  is  the  question  ? 

Q.  YY>u  stated  that  there  were  from  two  to  a  hundred  people  whom 
you  heard  talk  of  the  negroes  going  to  Indiana  for  political  purposes. 
These  were  people  opposed  to  their  going  for  that  purpose  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  mention  the  name  of  one  man  only  who  advised  it  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  others  do  it  except  him?— A.  Well,  sir,  he  did 
not  advise  it  for  political  purposes,  I  do  not  think. 

Q.  What  did  he  advise  ? — A.  I  must  state  this  in  justice  to  Mr.  Men¬ 
denhall,  that  this  was  two  months  before  the  movement  commenced 
from  North  Carolina.  Saint  Louis  was  full  of  these  colored  people,  and 
Holland,  Wall,  and  myself  and  one  or  two  others  started  this  society, 
the  purpose  being  to  aid  those  who  were  fleeing  from  oppression  in  the 
South.  Saint  Louis  was  full  of  them,  and  the  first  money  collected  was 
sent  to  Saint  Louis.  That  was  a  month  or  two  before  emigration  began 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


121 


from  North  Carolina.  I  think  the  first  or  second  night  that  there  was 
a  meeting  of  the  society  Mr.  Mendenhall  got  up  and  made  a  speech,  and 
said  he  thought  it  would  be  a  good  thing  to  divert  some  of  this  emigra¬ 
tion  from  North  Carolina  to  Indiana,  because  Indiana  was  a  doubtful 
State.  Eight  then  I  said  I  would  be  opposed  to  it  if  it  was  to  be  a 
political  movement ;  so  did  Professor  Greener,  and  nearly  all  of  them 
said  so. 

Q.  Nearly  all  of  them — portions  of  them  said  so  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  :  and 
Captain  Wall  and  the  others  denied  that  it  was  a  political  movement. 

Q.  Then,  if  I  understand  you.  there  was  a  society,  and  a  half  a  dozen 
or  more  of  prominent  persons  who  were  discussing  the  means  of  relief 
of  these  people  at  Saint  Louis  were  together,  and  one  gentleman,  Mr. 
Mendenhall,  suggested  that  the  negroes  be  taken  to  Indiana  for  politi¬ 
cal  purposes,  and  all  the  rest  opposed  it  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  some  of  them 
said  nothing.  Very  few  of  them  said  a  word.  I  was  the  only  one  who 
made  a  speech,  and  Professor  Greener  said  to  me  privately  that  he 
would  not  favor  a  political  movement. 

Q.  All  that  was  said  then  was  said  by  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  others  of  them  afterwards  expressed  the  same  opinion  to  you  t 
— A.  Yres,  sir ;  that  was  afterwards. 

Q.  And  if  any  of  them  agreed  with  Mr.  Mendenhall  they  said  noth¬ 
ing? — A.  Not  publicly. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  them  say  anything  privately? — A.  No  sir;  not 
that  I  remember. 

Q.  Did  you  attend  another  meeting  of  the  society  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
attended  the  third. 

Q.  And  you  heard  it  there  again  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  The  only  time  you  heard  it  was  when  it  was  said  by  Mendenhall, 
and  you  opposed  it  and  Greener  opposed  it  ? — A.  He  said  so  that  night, 
but  he  is  in  favor  of  it  now. 

Q.  Are  you  not  in  favor  of  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  am  tor  those  who  can 
do  better  by  it. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  that  Professor  Greener  is  in  favor  of  it  for  any 
political  purpose  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Yrou  left  because  you  were  not  in  favor  of  it  ;  the  others  were  op¬ 
posing  it,  too,  and  yet  you  thought  it  was  a  political  movement,  because- 
Mendenhall  so  stated  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  Mendenhall  a  Eepublican  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  :  I  do  not  know  that 
lie  is  a  very  prominent  one,  but  he  is  a  Eepublican. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  was  authorized  to  speak  for  the  Eepub¬ 
lican  party  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  somebody  replenishing  their  depleted  funds  by  those 
means? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  did  not  say  that. 

Q.  I  thought  I  took  it  from  your  statement? — A.  You  might  have 
taken  it  from  the  newspapers.  I  think  it  was  Jim  Harris  who  stated  it 
in  his  speech. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  anything  of  it  yourself  '! — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  Jim  Harris  ? — A.  1  know  he  is  the  most 
prominent  colored  Eepublican  in  the  State  of  North  Carolina. 

Q.  You  published  his  speech,  did  you  not? — A.  No,  sir;  1  read  it 
from  his  own  paper. 

Q.  What  is  his  character  for  honesty  ? — A.  I  know  of  only  one  thing 
against  it.  While  he  was  in  the  Eepublican  legislature,  where  every¬ 
body  stole  something,  lie  is  said  to  have  taken  $7,000.  I  do  not  know 
whether  he  was  guilty  or  not,  as  he  was  never  tried,  and  never  was 
brought  up  to  testify  even.  It  is  a  charge  that  was  brought  in  the  can- 


122 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


vass  of  1871.  I  went  down  there  and  they  brought  this  charge  against 
him  of*  receiving  $7,000  as  a  bribe  about  a  railroad  company  or  a  rail¬ 
road  appropriation.  He  never  was  tried  about  it  and  has  been  in  the 
legislature  since.  He  is  the  editor  of  the  leading  colored  paper,  and 
was  made  editor  by  the  white  Republicans  and  others  of  the  State. 

Q.  You  speak  of  the  u  wholesale  delusion  of  my  people”;  what  do 
you  mean  by  that  ? — A.  I  speak  of  the  men  who  have  gone  down  there 
and  stated  to  the  ignorant  colored  people  that  the  government  wanted 
them  out  in  Indiana,  that  they  would  pay  them  a  dollar  and  a  half  a 
day  for  work  in  the  winter,  that  they  would  get  a  suit  of  clothes  in 
Washington  as  they  passed  through,  have  their  railroad  fare  paid,  and 
get  two  dollars  and  a  half  a  day  in  the  summer  time. 

Q.  How  did  you  hear  all  that  ? — A.  From  North  Carolina  papers,  and 
from  Jim  Harris,  who  traveled  over  the  whole  district  and  who  made  a 
speech  in  Wilmington.  There  were  four  or  five  thousand  people  there 
who  were  opposed  to  this  exodus,  and  Jim  Harris  went  down  and  made 
a  speech,  and  so  did  Hunter,  who  traveled  all  through  the  State  in  the 
interest  of  this  colored  people’s  fair — a  fair  which  was  held  by  the  col¬ 
ored  people  of  the  State,  and  which  the  white  men,  Democrats  and  Re¬ 
publicans,  say  was  the  best  ever  held  in  the  State. 

Q.  What  men  do  you  refer  to  as  having  made  these  false  and  delusive 
statements  ? — A.  Sam  Perry,  Williams,  and  Taylor  Evans. 

Q.  Are  those  the  only  men  who  have  been  engaged  in  it  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  except  the  railroad  agents. 

Q.  Those  are  the  only  colored  men,  however? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  not  believe,  and  have  you  not  heard  also,  that  the  railroad 
company  furnishes  these  men  the  money  to  go  there  and  work  up 
this  movement? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  that  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad  Company 
does  it? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad  Company 
pays  them  a  dollar  a  head  ? — A.  I  believe  it,  but  I  do  not  know  it. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  any  others  engaged  in  it? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  believe  there  is  a  feeling  of  dissatisfaction  there  from  some 
cause  among  those  colored  people,  which  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Rail¬ 
road  Company  has  taken  advantage  of,  and  is  going  round  with  these 
men  to  work  up  the  movement,  and  they  pay  the  men  a  dollar  a  head 
for  all  they  get  to  go  ? — A.  No,  sir.  You  ask  the  question,  Mr.  Senator, 
and  you  answer  it  yourself.  #  The  people  were  not  dissatisfied,  but  they 
have  been  made  so  by  these*  men.  These  men  go  down  there,  and  go 
about  them  and  tell  them  these  great  stories.  If  you  go  among  igno¬ 
rant  men,  white  or  black,  gray  or  grizzly,  who  are  getting  only  forty 
cents  a  day,  and  tell  them  they  can  get  a  dollar  and  a  half  somewhere 
else,  they  will  want  to  go.  It  is  these  ignorant  ones  especially  that 
they  play  for,  and  these  men  when  they  get  here  say  that  they  are  told 
to  vote  the  Republican  ticket  when  they  get  to  Indiana.  I  do  not  ob¬ 
ject  to  that,  and  I  wish,  if  they  could  be  taken  care  of  and  would  not 
suffer,  that  a  million  of  them  could  go. 

Q.  Who  did  you  hear  tells  them  these  stories  of  good  times  in  Indi¬ 
ana  l — A.  I  heard  that  Perry  told  them  so. 

Q.  Is  he  in  the  employment  of  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad  Com¬ 
pany  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  but  I  heard  that  he  told  them  these 
things. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anybody  else  who  has  done  that  ? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
Williams  and  Taylor  Evans.  I  say  I  do  not  know  anything  about  the 
connection  of  these  men  with  the  movement,  but  what  I  say  is,  that  I 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  123 

9 

have  heard  from  all  the  people  who  have  come  here  from  North  Carolina, 
and  newspapers,  that  they  were  told  all  these  things  were  true,  that 
there  was  plenty  of  employment  there,  and  that  the  prices  were  high. 

Q.  Of  course  everybody  down  there  pretty  much  is  opposed  to  their 
leaving  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  They  are  leaving  a  district,  however,  where  we 
could  afford  to  lose  them,  as  it  has  L 7,000  Republican  majority.  We 
cau  lose  enough  from  that  to  carry  Indiana,  and  still  be  able  to  carry 
North  Carolina ;  and  the  reason  that  the  people  are  opposed  to  it  is  be¬ 
cause  they  think  they  are  being  used  and  duped. 

Q.  1  mean  do  not  the  people  of  North  Carolina  want  to  keep  them 
there  on  account  of  their  citizenship  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  think  that 
makes  any  difference.  Unless  Governor  Vance  gets  out  and  carries  it, 
we  can  carry  it  for  the  Republicans  the  next  time. 

Q.  Then  they  are  opposed  to  the  negro  going  away  because  they 
want  him  there  ? — A.  Well,  Senator,  the  people  from  the  North  and 
West  do  not  understand  the  feeling.  The  people  down  there  love  the 
negro. 

Q.  It  is  pure  sympathy  and  love  for  the  negro,  then  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  think  that  the  negro  is  better  looked  after  and  will  be 
better  treated  among  the  white  people  of  North  Carolina  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  was  this  society  organized  of  which  you  speak  ? — A.  I 
think  in  August  or  September,  but  I  do  not  remember  which  month. 

Q.  Of  what  year? — A.  Last  year  ;  1879. 

Q.  Were  you  present  at  its  organization  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  at  the  first 
meeting. 

Q.  In  the  first  place  you  were  in  favor  of  the  exodus  from  the  other 
States  as  a  relief  to  the  negro? — A.  I  am  in  favor  of  the  exodus  where 
I  think  the  people  who  are  emigrating  think  or  feel  they  can  better  their 
condition.  I  am  opposed  to  their  being  deluded  into  moving  from  com¬ 
fortable  homes  to  an  inhospitable  State  where  they  will  suffer. 

Q.  You  are  in  favor  of  it  continuing  from  Louisiana  and  Missis¬ 
sippi  ? — A.  Wherever  I  think  they  are  oppressed. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  are  oppressed  there? — A.  I  do  not  know.  I 
have  not  been  there. 

#  Q  I  ask  you,  from  the  information  you  have  from  your  race  and  your 
papers,  are  you  in  favor  of  the  exodus  from  Louisiana  and  Missis¬ 
sippi  ? — A.  I  am  in  favor  of  it  when  they  are  oppressed. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  they  are  oppressed  now  ? — A.  I  do  not  know.  I 
know  they  have  been. 

Q.  You  are  ignorant,  then,  on  this  subject  ? — A,  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  in  favor  of  it  some  time  ago  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  very  much. 

Q.  What  has  changed  your  opinions  ? — A.  Because  I  have  not  heard 
of  anything  of  the  kind  since. 

Q.  Have  you  not  had  any  democratic  associations  that  changed  you 
before  you  came  to  this  committee  ?— A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not  seen  a 
member  of  the  committee  or  talked  with  them  on  political  subjects,  and 
I  have  not  talked  very  much  politics,  certainly  not  with  Democrats, 
since  1872. 

Q.  And  you  are  balanced  in  your  mind  now  as  to  whether  you  are  in 
favor  of  it  from  Mississippi  and  Louisiana,  but  you  are  opposed  to  it 
from  North  Carolina? — A.  I  say  I  am  in  favor  of  it  from  other  States 
if  they  are  oppressed  there,  and  I  am  opposed  to  it  from  North  Caro¬ 
lina,  because  I  know  they  are  not  oppressed. 

Q.  Well,  you  are  opposed  to  it  from  North  Carolina.  Now  how  is  it 
with  respect  to  Louisiana  ? — A.  I  am  in  favor  of  it  from  there  when 
they  are  oppressed. 


124 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  And  you  do  not  know  that  they  are  oppressed  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  are  in  doubt  as  to  whether  you  are  in  favor  of  it  or 
not? — A.  If  they  are  oppressed  in  those  States,  I  am  in  favor  of  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  you  are  opposed  to  it  from  those  States  ? — 
A.  I  am  opposed  to  it  when  they  are  not  oppressed,  and  in  favor  of  it 
when  they  are. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  they  are  oppressed  or  not  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  now  in  favor  of  it  ? — A.  1  am  when  they  are  oppressed. 

Senator  Windom.  I  shall  not  put  the  question  any  more,  unless  the 
chairman  would  insist  that  the  witness  shall  answer. 

The  Witness.  1  do  not  know  anything  about  their  oppressions  there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  you  are  opposed  to  it? — A.  I  am  in  favor 
of  it  where  they  are  oppressed,  and  not  in  favor  of  it  where  they  are 
not  oppressed. 

Mr.  Windom  insisted  that  the  witness  should  answer  the  question  in 
some  more  specific  form. 

The  Chairman.  If  you  can  think  of  any  other  form  of  answer  please 
do  so. 

The  Witness.  I  will  try. 

Q.  Have  you  any  opinion  to  give  this  committee  at  this  time  upon  the 
subject  of  the  exodus  from  other  States  than  North  Carolina? — A.  No,, 
sir. 


Q.  For  what  reason  do  you  decline  to  express  an  opinion  ? — x4.  Be¬ 
cause  I  have  not  seen  or  heard  anything  about  the  exodus  from  those 
States  for  a  length  of  time,  and  because  I  am  just  from  North  Carolina, 
where  I  am  familiar  with  it. 

Q.  Then  you  have  not  any  information  on  which  to  say  that  you  are 
or  are  not  in  favor  of  the  exodus  from  Louisiana  and  Mississippi  ? — A. 
No,  so.  * 


By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  Why  could  you  not  have  answered  me  in  that  way? — A.  I  did. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  know  anything  of  the  facts? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  have  no  opinion  about  it  ?  When  you  joined  the  society 
what  did  you  know  ? — A.  It  was  to  aid  the  fleeing  negroes  from  Missis¬ 
sippi  and  Louisiana. 

Q.  Why  ? — A.  Because  they  said  they  were  being  oppressed. 

Q.  For  what  were  they  leaving  Mississippi? — A.  They  said  they  were 
being  shot  and  oppressed. 

Q.  When  was  that? — A.  lh  August  last,  I  think. 

Q.  If  they  were  being  done  iu  that  way  at  that  time  has  there  any¬ 
thing  occurred  to  change  the  status  of  affairs? — A.  I  think,  sir,  after 
the  first  exodus  took  place  there  have  been  no  more  outrages  committed. 

Q.  Then  you  were  in  favor  of  it  at  that  time  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  thought  it  was  a  good  thing? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  the  next  point  is  you  left  the  society  organized  to  help  them 
because  Mendenhall  thought  they  should  be  sent  from  North  Carolina 
to  Indiana? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  knew  no  one  else  in  the  society  who  favored  that  but 
him  ? — A.  I  thought  that  was  giving  the  society  a  political  purpose. 

Q.  And  therefore  you  left  it? — A.  I  have  stated  that. 

Q.  I  do  not  think  vou  put  it  on  that  specific  ground. — A.  I  think  I 
did. 

Q.  Who  else  in  this  society  favored  it? — A.  There  were  others  in  the 
society  in  favor  of  it,  I  suppose. 

Q.  What  makes  you  think  so? — A.  By  their  speeches  and  conduct. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


125 


Q.  Who  made  any  speeches  ? — A.  That  I  do  not  propose  to  answer. 

Q.  Are  the  speeches  .secrets? — A.  No,  sir,  not  specially. 

Q.  Now  what  speeches  did  you  hear  ? — A.  I  heard  them  speaking  and 
talking,  but  I  left  there  after  the  third  night. 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  that  you  and  Mendenhall  were  the  only  ones  who 
spoke  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  then  you  left? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  1  suppose  you  know  nothing  of  anything  else  that  occurred 
on  that  subject? — A.  No,  sir.  These  other  matters  were  private  con¬ 
versations. 

Q.  You  opposed  their  going  from  North  Carolina  to  Indiana  because 
you  thought  they  were  better  off  in  North  Carolina  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  the  Democratic  party  in  North  Carolina  is  opposed  to 
their  going  on  account  of  their  love  for  them? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  not  say  so  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  not  say  the  people  down  there  loved  the  negro  ? — A.  l"es, 
sir. 

Q.  I  say  you  did,  too,  and  the  minutes  will  show  it. — A.  I  stated 
that  they  liked  them  better  down  there  than  they  do  in  the  North. 

Q.  Did  you  not  give  that  as  a  reason  why  they  opposed  the  negroes 
leaving? — A.  Yes,  sir;  because  they  liked  them,  and  think  there  is  no 
necessity  for  their  moving  away. 

Q.  And  they  think  that  the  negro  will  not  improve  his  condition,  but 
make  it  worse? — A.  I  do  not  know  how  they  all  feel  about  that,  but  I 
think  so. 

Q.  I  mean  the  white  people. — A.  I  have  not  talked  with  many  of 
them  about  it.  1  know  the  white  newspapers  are  all  opposed  to  it. 

Q.  On  what  ground  ? — A.  Because  they  say  They  do  not  think  there  is 
any  necessity  for  the  removal  of  the  colored  people,  and  they  think 
they  are  getting  along  very  well  in  North  Carolina.  The  negro  has 
lived  there  all  his  life,  and  they  need  his  labor.  They  have  all  those 
things  stated  in  the  papers,  but  I  have  not  talked  with  any  Democrats 
about  politics  since  1872. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  You  confine  your  statement  to  North  Carolina? — A.  AYs,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  yon  known  of  these  misrepresentations  by  Perry, 
Williams,  and  Evans  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  them.  Of 
course  I  learned  what  I  know  abiut  them#from  others.  I  get  informa¬ 
tion  from  the  newspapers  published  by  both  white  and  colored  people. 
Being  an  editor  of  one  myself,  I  exchange  with  every  paper  in  the 
eastern  part  of  the  State. 

Q.  Did  not  the  first  load  of  emigrants  from  there  go  through  here 
last  July  ? — A.  I  do  not  remember. 

Q.  Well,  the  agitation  must  have  been  worked  up  before  to  get  these 
people  to  leave. — A.  Yres,  sir;  it  began  last  spring. 

Q.  Then  these  stories  must  have  been  circulated  last  spring  t — A.  Yres, 
sir. 

Q.  And  these  three  men  were  then  engaged  in  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Going  round  through  the  State  working  up  the  feeling? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  the  newspapers,  white  and  colored,  been  opposed 
to  it? — A.  Some  time  during  the  fall,  when  the  papers  began  to  speak 
of  it. 

Q.  Early  in  the  fall? — A.  Yes,  sir;  in  September  or  October. 


120 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Very  soon  after  the  tirst  company  left,  and  after  the  misrepresen¬ 
tations  began  to  be  found  out? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And,  so  far  as  you  know,  the  entire  white  and  colored  papers,  Re¬ 
publican  and  Democratic,  are  opposed  to  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  been  engaged  in  exploding  these  statements? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And,  so  far  as  you  know,  all  the  means  of  public  intelligence  have 
been  engaged  since  August  in  in  exploding  these  statements  and  giv¬ 
ing  proper  information  to  the  people? — A.  Yes,  sir*  all  of  them. 

Q.  Speakers  and  others  have  gone  among  them  for  that  purpose  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  have  opposed  the  exodus? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  these  local  sources  of  information  are  the  sources  to  which 
the  colored  people  would  be  likely  to  look  for  the  truth  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the}^  would  believe  what  they  saw  coming  from  their  friends, 
from  the  press  and  the  clergy  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  being  the  case,  and  having  been  the  case  for  some  time,  it 
cannot  be  possible  that  the  delusion  continues,  can  it? — A.  Well,’  right 
there,  Senator - 

Q.  Answer  the  question,  and  do  not  make  a  speech.  I  ask,  with  all 
this  information,  with  all  the  agencies  of  the  State,  all  the  avenues  of 
information  engaged  in  exploding  these  stories,  in  dissipating  the  delu¬ 
sion,  have  you  any  knowledge  that  it  does  still  exist? — A.  I  have  not. 

Q.  We  sympathize,  I  believe,  on  political  matters,  Mr.  Otey ;  but  I 
want  to  know,  if  the  emigration  continues  after  the  delusion  is  ex¬ 
ploded,  does  it  not  follow  that  it  is  based  on  accurate  information? — A. 
I  can  answer  you,  but  you  will  not  allow  me. 

Q.  Your  colored  people  down  there  are  human  beings? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
but  they  have  false  information. 

Q.  But  the  false  information  has  been  dissipated,  and  the  emigration 
continues;  if  it  has  not  stopped,  is  not  that  good  proof  that  it  is  based 
on  accurate  information  ? — A.  The  people  who  are  emigrating  do  not 
know  anything  of  this  ;  they  are  the  most  ignorant  people  in  the  State. 
There  are  not  more  than  fifty  intelligent  men  who  have  gone  West  out  of 
twenty- live  hundred  or  three  thousand  people. 

Q.  Take  the  ignorant  colored  men  of  the  South,  and  whom  do  they 
most  believe  in  ;  their  friends  who  have  a  home  influence  with  them,  or 
these  scalawags  who  lie  to  them  under  the  guise  of  humanity  ?— A. 
They  do  not  know  that  a  lie  has  been  told  to  them  yet. 

Q.  You  mean  they  do  not  know  that  all  this  talk  about  Indiana  is  a 
lie? — A.  No,  sir.  They  have  just  gone  ahead  like  sheep;  three-fifths 
of  them  go  because  others  have  gone  before  them,  because  their  friends 
have  gone. 

Q.  They  have  gone  because  their  friends  have  gone? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  they  heard  from  their  friends  very  generally? — A.  Most  of 
them  have,  I  believe. 

Q.  Their  friends  have  been  out  there  and  found  it  as  represented,  do 
you  mean  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  that  the  first  batch  has  generally  had  a 
pretty  fair  time. 

Q.  Well,  there  have  been  several  batches  gone;  how  long  does  the 
mail  take  to  go  back  from  there? — A.  Several  days. 

Q.  The  last  batch  went  in  December,  didn’t  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  they  have  been  there  long  enough  to  have  been  heard  from  ; 
there  has  been  opportunity  for  it,  has  there  not  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir, 
whether  they  have  been  heard  from  or  not. 

Q.  If  these  people  were  ignorant  of  the  truth,  and  after  getting  there 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


127 


could  not  get  along  any  better  than  iu  North  Carolina,  and  were  abused 
there  even  worse  and  were  uot  actually  doing  better,  wouldn’t  they  write 
back  about  it? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  is  supposable  that  they  would. 

Q.  Would  they  have  any  interest  in  deceiving  their  folks  at  home? — 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Wouldn’t  it  be  reasonable  for  them  to  write  home  whether  they 
were  better  off  or  not ;  and,  if  so,  to  tell  their  friends  to  come  out  there  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  reasonable. 

Q.  If  the  exodus  continues — and  you  seem  to  be  apprehensive  that  it 
will — if  it  continues,  isn’t  it  likely  it  will  be  upon  information  from  these 
people  of  the  same  class  who  have  been  out  there  and  writteu  home 
about  it  ? — A.  It  looks  reasonable. 

Q.  If  it  be  a  fact  that  these  men  went  there  under  a  delusion,  expect¬ 
ing  to  find  a  paradise  and  finding  a  topfiet,  wouldn’t  you  think  they 
Avould  write  to  their  friends  that  all  was  not  right,  and  they  had  better 
stay  where  they  were? — A.  A  good  many  of  them  have  done  so,  but 
very  few  of  them  can  write. 

Q.  Don’t  it  follow  that  if  a  few  do  write  home  that  they  are  worse 
off  than  they  were,  wouldn’t  a  large  number  of  them  write  that  they  are 
better?— A.  Those  letters  are  not  proven  yet.  I  stated  that  those  who 
went  out  with  the  first  batch  might  do  so.  So  might  some  of  them  gotten 
employment  and  written  home. 

Q.  Can  there  be  any  doubt  that  if  the  exodus  continues  it  is  because 
those  who  have  gone  there  write  home  to  their  friends  that  they  are 
better  off*  than  they  were  in  North  Carolina  ? — A.  All  of  them  do  not  say 
so  ;  there  may  be  exceptions. 

Q.  But  doesn’t  it  follow  that  the  exodus  would  not  continue  except 
upon  information  that  those  who  had  already  gone  were  better  off*  than 
they  were  down  in  North  Carolina  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  that  it  fol¬ 
lows.  I  know  one  of  the  most  intelligent  persons  who  went  in  the  last 
batch  wrote  a  letter — my  business  manager  had  the  paper — iu  which  he 
said  that  they  were  not  well  received,  and  were  worse  off'  than  they 
could  possibly  beiu  North  Carolina;  I  went  there  to  ask  for  the  paper 
to  bring  it  here  to  the  committee,  but  he  told  me  he  had  sent  it  to  Sena¬ 
tor  Voorhees.  That  is  a  letter  from  one  of  the  most  intelligent  men  who 
went  out  there. 

Q.  You  mean  that  is  a  letter  written  by  one  of  those  people  back  to 
North  Carolina? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  got  from  North  Carolina  here? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  think  it  would  have  its  effect  as  far  as  it  could  to  refute 
these  misstatements  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  think  any  other  intelligent  colored  man  would  write  the 
same  way  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  all  of  them  would  ? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  would  have  any  interest  iu  deceiving  those  of 
their  friends  who  remained  at  home  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  think  that  if  this  exodus  continues  on  such  information 
from  these  people  it  would  be  an  argument  that  most  of  them  write 
home  that  they  are  doing  better  in  Indiana  than  they  were  in  North 
Carolina? — A.  No,  sir.  Let  me  have  a  chance  to  answer  you.  I  was 
going  to  talk  to  you  of  a  woman  who  was  in  the  streets  of  Alexandria 
begging  money  to  get  back  home,  and  she  was  coming  back  from  In¬ 
diana. 

Q,.  But  I  am  now  asking  you  about  letters  received  from  these  people 
in  Indiana.  If  the  exodus  continues  upon  the  strength  of  letters  received 
from  those  who  have  gone  before,  don’t  you  consider  it  an  argument 


128 


NEGRO  EXODUS  EROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


that  they  are  doing  better  in  Indiana  than  they  did  in  North  Carolina  ? 
— A.  That  I  cannot  say. 

Q.  I  ask  you  if  it  is  not  reasonable  to  say  that  most  of  the  informa¬ 
tion  received  is  that  their  condition  is  better  ? — A.  Will  you  let  me  have 
a  little  time  to  answer* you  t 

Q.  No,  sir;  you  can  say  “Yes”  or  “No”;  you  answer  my  questions. 

[The  witness  objected  to  answering  without  opportunity  for  explain¬ 
ing  his  answer.] 

Q.  (By  Senator  Blair.)  I  want  to  ask  you  this  question,  and  if  you  de¬ 
sire  to  make  an  explanation  after  answering  you  have  the  right  to  do  so: 
If  the  exodus  continues  on  the  information  of  those  who  have  been  there 
and  seen  the  country,  if  it  continues  upon  such  information,  isn’t  it  a 
proof  that  the  condition  of  the  colored  man  is  better  than  in  North 
Carolina? — x\.  If  they  have  received  this  information  it  would  tend  in 
that  direction.  If  it  continues  on  such  information  it  would  seem  to  be 
all  right.  My  opinion  is  that  these  people  have  not  received  this  infor¬ 
mation,  but  are  following  each  other  like  sheep.  While  you  see  these 
.statements  made  in  newspapers  about  their  condition,  they  are  not  all 
of  them  true.  I  have  been  abused  for  talking  about  what  I  have  read 
in  Democratic  newspapers,  but  if  you  will  look  in  those  papers  you  will 
hud  letters  giving  a  different  view  of  their  condition  there.  Not  more 
than  two  weeks  ago  a  colored  woman  was  right  here  in  Alexandria  in 
the  streets  who  had  been  fooled  away  from  home,  and  she  had  walked 
back,  and  was  seeking  to  borrow  money  to  get  back  home.  A  good 
many  of  them  have  gone  out  there  and  are  going  to  be  kept  out  there  ; 
I  do  not  know  what  for,  but  they  will  be  kept  there  I  am  satisfied,  and 
will  be  induced  to  make  good  reports  of  their  condition. 

Q.  Are  you  going  to  answer  my  question  ?  I  ask  you  if  you  thought 
it  was  going  to  continue? — A.  No,  sir;  not  at  all. 

Q.  You  say  the  Democratic  papers  published  these  statements,  and 
that  the  Republican  and  colored  papers  in  the  South  are  doing  the 
same? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  state  whether  you  were  ever  in  Indiana  ?  Just  answer 
“  yes”  or  “  no.” — A.  I  never  was. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  an  ordinary  hand,  from  your  own  personal 
knowledge,  can  get  for  a  day’s  work  in  that  State? — A.  I  do  not  know 
myself. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  it  ? — A.  I  know  there  are  more  tramps 
in  Indiana  than  there  are  in  all  the  South. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  it  ? — A.  I  know  it  from  the  newspapers. 

Q.  I  am  not  asking  you  for  defamatory  articles  against  the  State  of 
Indiana.  Ido  not  want  you  to  answer  anything  more  than  what  I  ask 
you  for.  Do  you  know  the  amount  of  wages  paid  to  laborers  in  Indi¬ 
ana  ? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  they  do  not  get  a  dollar  or  a  dollar  and  a  half 
a  d'ay? — A.  I  do  not  know  it. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  but  that  this  information  that  these  men  have 
received  is  correct? — A.  I  do  not  know  it;  but  I  do  not  believe  ir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  believe  that  they  can  get  from  sixty  cents  to  a  dollar  a 
day  for  labor  ?— A.  Do  you  mean  all  of  them  ? 

Q.  I  mean  a  good  average  hand. — A.  Men  ? 

Q.  Yes;  can’t  men  get  from  sixty  cents  to  a  dollar  a  day  each  ? — A. 
If  they  can  get  employment,  I  suppose  they  ean. 

Q.  Don’t  you  believe  that  they  can  doit?— A.  I  have  got  no  belief 
about  it. 

Q.  Then  have  you  any  information  to  the  contrary  ? — A.  No,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES, 


129 


Q.  Why,  then,  do  you  denounce  this  movement  if  you  have  no  belief 
about  it,  and  don’t  know  but  that  they  are  better  off  in  Indiana  than  in 
North  Carolina ,  ? — A.  I  do  not  think  any  man  ought  to  leave  one  place 
and  go  to  another  when  he  is  doing  well  and  cannot  better  himself  by 
goiug. 

Q.  But  you  say  you  do  not  know  that  he  is  not  bettering  himself. 
You  say  you  have  no  belief  on  it? — A.  I  said  I  have  no  belief  about 
the  wages  they  are  receiving. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  know  but  that  they  are  as  well  off  generally,  ex¬ 
cept  as  to  wages  in  Indiana,  as  iu  North  Carolina? — A.  Well,  sir,  if 
they  are  not  more  than  just  as  well  off,  I  would  oppose  the  movement. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  they  have  got  as  good  a  chance  to  go  to  school  in 
Indiana  as  in  North  Carolina  ? — A.  I  do  not  believe  they  have  got  any 
better. 

Q.  Yrou  believe  they  can  get  six  months’  schooling  in  Indiana;  six 
months  is  better  than  three,  is  it  not? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  they  can  get  six  months  in  Indiana  and  only  get  three  in  North 
Carolina — if  that  is  a  fact,  are  they  not  better  off  ? — A.  Yres,  sir  ;  in  that 
regard,  if  that  is  a  fact. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  but  that  is  a  fact? — A.  I  do. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  it?— A.  I  know  in  the  country  you  have  three 
four  months’  schooling,  and  in  the  cities  six  and  eight  months. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  it  if  you  have  never  been  in  Indiana  ? — A.  Be¬ 
cause  I  lived  in  Ohio,  right  adjoining  it,  and  I  know  sonu  thing  about  it. 

Q.  Don’t  you  believe  that  the  chance  for  schooling  is  better  in  In¬ 
diana  than  it  is  in  North  Carolina? — A.  I  think  the  chances  in  North 
Carolina  are  equaled  but  not  surpassed  in  Indiana  or  elsewhere. 

Q.  You  think,  then,  in  the  matter  of  schooling  they  are  as  well  off  in 
Indiana  as  in  North  Carolina  ? — A.  I  believe  they  are  at  present. 

Q.  At  present?  What  do  you  mean  by  that? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  say  at 
present,  because  I  believe  they  will  have  as  good  schools  and  as  many  of 
them  after  a  year  or  two  in  North  Carolina  as  they  would  get  anywhere 
iu  the  North. 

Q.  You  do  not  know,  you  say,  what  wages  they  are  getting? — A. 
No,  sir ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  they  are  getting  better  wages  than  they  do  in 
North  Carolina? — A.  I  do  not  know  that  they  are  at  present. 

Q.  I  take  it  the  fact  is  that  you  do  not  know  very  much  about  * 
how  they  are  situated  in  Indiana,  and  cannot  give  any  better  basis  for 
your  opinion  than  your  general  guess-work  and  impression. — A.  I 
would  not  oppose  it,  except  with  good  reason  for  it. 

Q.  This  paper,  the  Argus,  is  your  paper,  is  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  this  issue  of  December  6th,  1879,  I  find  the  following : 

“Capt.  O.  S.  B.  Wall  deserves  great  credit  for  his  untiring  energy  and 
interest  in  behalf  of  the  fleeing  emigrants  from  the  Southern  States. 
The  captain  has  worked  hard  for  the  past  three  or  four  months,  iu  get¬ 
ting  transportation  for  those  who  have  come  here  from  the  Southern 
States.  We  have  a  high  opinion  of  Captain  Wall,  and  at  some  future 
time  we  propose  to  have  more  to  say  about  him.  He  is  a  public  bene¬ 
factor.” 

Witness.  Well,  I  agree  to  that.  He  helped  them  after  they  got 
here.  I  would  have  done  the  same  myself,  if  I  had  had  any  money. 

Q.  Have  you  anything  to  say  against  what  has  been  actually  done  by 
the  Emigrant  Aid  Society  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  anything  against  the 
society. 

9  EX 


130 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  You  believe  the  purpose  for  which  it  was  organized  to  be  a  good 
one  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  has  adhered  closely  to  the  original  purpose  T — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  short,  you  believe  it  is  a  good  society  ? — A.  So  far  as  its  object 
is  concerned.  1  drew  up  its  constitution,  and  they  only  formed  another 
one  last  week.  The  object  of  the  society  was  to  help  men  fleeing  from 
oppression. 

Q.  I  did  not  ask  *you  its  object,  or  who  drew  up  its  constitution.  I 
asked  you  if  the  acts  of  the  society — what  it  has  done — have  not  been 
of  a  worthy  character;  non-political,  and  such  as  you  approve  of  ? — A. 
So  far  as  I  know,  yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  Vance  : 

Q.  Mr.  Otey,  as  a  North  Carolinian,  I  have  been  gratified  to  hear  how 
you  speak  of  that  State.  You  have,  however,  made  one  statement  that 
you  will  perhaps  correct  when  your  attention  is  directed  to  it :  you 
made  it  laughingly,  and  probably  did  not  mean  exactly  what  you  said. 
I  refer  to  your  statement  that  the  law  for  confining  men  guilty  of  lar¬ 
ceny  in  the  penitentiary  was  made  for  the  purpose  of  disfranchising 
colored  men.  Now  I  ask  you,  was  not  the  change  in  the  old  la  w,  doing 
away  with  the  whipping-post  and  abolishing  corporal  punishment,  made 
in  18G8  by  the  Republican  party  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  was  not  the  constitution,  abolishing  all  corporal  punishment 
and  substituting  imprisonment  instead,  made  by  the  Republican  party 
when  the  State  was  readmitted  to  the  Union9? — A.  Yes,  sir.  But  the 
law  making  felony  out  of  a  petty  crime  was  made  by  the  Democratic 
party — by  a  Democratic  legislature. 

Q.  It  was  always  a  felony  in  North  Carolina,  under  the  common  law, 
to  steal,  was  it  not  ? — A.  I  know  that  it  was  always  a  felony  to  steal ; 
but  it  was  not  always  the  law  to  put  them  into  the  penitentiary  for  steal¬ 
ing  every  little  thing.  In  former  times  they  would  hang  a  man  for 
stealing  a  horse,  or  a  mule,  and  whip  him  for  stealing  a  hog. 

Q.  Did  not  conviction  of  felony  in  old  times  disqualify  a  man  for  citi¬ 
zenship? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  And  when  a  man  was  whipped,  did  not  that  disqualify  a  man  for 
citizenship? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  they" were  never  whipped;  I  mean,  free 
men,  who  had  a  right  to  vote,  were  not;  of  course  slaves  were..  But  a 
'  man,  if  he  stole  a  mule,  was  put  in  jail  for  so  long  a  time;  and  if  he 
stole  two  mules,  he  was  hung. 

Q.  For  the  second  offense,  t\ ou  mean  ? — A.  Yes ;  for  the  second  offense 
he  was  hung.  But  now  they  send  him  to  the  penitentiary  if  he  steals  a 
chicken — the  same  as  they  do  in  Virginia.  And  I  do  honestly  believe 
that  that  law  was  made  for  the  purpose  of  disfranchising  colored  men. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  men  who  legislated  upon  the  subject,  the  men 
who  made  that  law,  had  that  object  in  view  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  whether 
they  did  or  not,  but  it  looks  very  much  like  it.  I  know  I  went  through 
the  penitentiary,  only  a  short  time  ago,  and  I  saw  a  great  many  white 
men  there,  and  only  a  few  colored  men. 

By  Mr.  Blair:  v 

Q.  You  say  you  went  through  the  penitentiary  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was 
not  there  as  a  convict. 

Q.  1  did  not  mean  to  insinuate  anything  of  the  kind.  You  say  you 
saw  a  large  number  of  white  men  in  the  penitentiary,  and  but  few  col¬ 
ored  men? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  1  was  going  on  to  explain  how  it  hap¬ 
pened.  1  saw  more  white  men  in  the  penitentiary  th§n  colored  men, 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


131 


not  because  there  were  not  so  many  white  men  there,  but  because  the 
colored  men  were  hired  out  to  the  railroad  companies.  ^ 

Q.  You- say  that,  in  your  belief,  this  law  was  made  on  purpose  to  dis¬ 
franchise  colored  men? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Explain  how  it  produces  that  result;  what  is  done  under  it? — A. 
Well,  suppose  a  man  steals  a  chicken  ;  he  is  brought  up  before  the  police 
court,  and  his  case  is  sent  to  the  grand  jury  ;  he  is  there  indicted  ;  he 
goes  before  the  court  and  is  tried  and  convicted  to  the  penitentiary  ;  he 
goes  there,  and  serves  his  term  out.  If  he  serves  his  term  out,  and  is 
not  pardoned  by  the  governor,  he  is  disfranchised  and  cannot  vote  again 
while  he  lives.  Only,  black  men  look  so  much  alike  that  you  caret  tell 
the  difference,  so  they  do  vote,  any  way. 

Q.  But  yon  believe  the  law  was  passed  for  the  purpose  of  disfran¬ 
chising  the  colored  men  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  about  the  hiring  out  of  colored  men  on  the  railroads? — A.  It 
is  the  same  there  that  it  is  in  Virginia  ;  the  colored  men  in  the  peniten¬ 
tiary  are  hired  out  to  work  on  the  railroads,  the  white  men  are  not. 
The  white  men  stay  in  the  shops,  and  make  shoes,  and  do  other  indoor 
work.  The  colored  men,  the  few  who  are  kept  at  the  penitentiary,  are 
kept  cutting  stone  to  build  the  walls  for  their  imprisonment,  or  some 
work  of  that  sort.  But  the  most  of  them  are  sent  out  to  work  for  the 
railroad  companies.  A  great  many  are  sent  out  to  the  Western  North. 
Carolina  Railroad. 

Q.  Is  not  this  also  a  fact,  that  the  white  convicts  in  the  penitentiary 
are  there  for  very  much  more  serious  crimes,  as  a  general  rule,  than  the 
colored  ones  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  colored  man,  you  say,  is  sent  to  prison  for  stealing  a  chicken? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  sent  there  for  very  slight  matters ;  is  not  that  a  pretty 
common  thing? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  is  it  with  white  men?  Would  they  be  sent  to  the  peniten¬ 
tiary  for  stealing  a  chicken? — A.  Yes,  sir;  if  prosecuted.  But  they 
generally  don’t  steal  such  small  amounts. 

Q.  They  generally  steal  larger  amounts? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  hardship  comes  in  that  way  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  it. 

Q.  The  negro,  as  a  race,  is  guilty  of  far  less  heinous  offenses  than 
white  men,  and  yet  suffers  the  same  severity  of  punishment  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir.  If  a  colored  man  steals  a  chicken  he  is  put  in  the  penitentiary  for 
a  year;  if  a  whit, e  man  steals  a  horse,  he  goes  to  the  penitentiary  for 
five  or  ten  years;  if  he  steals  two  horses — that  is,  for  the  second  offense — 
he  is  put  in  tin  re  for  life. 

Q  Do  you  know  of  any  instance  where  white  men  have  been  disfran¬ 
chised  on  account  of  having  committed  petty  offenses ? — A.  I  done 
associate  with  ex-convicts,  and  don’t  know  anything  about  it. 

Q.  1  did  not  mean  to  intimate  that  you  were  a  convict;  but  you 
spoke  a  few  minutes  ago  about  going  through  a  penitentiary  and  seeing 
a  good  many  white  men  there,  and  but  few  colored  men.  From  what 
you  learned  there,  or  in  any  other  way,  do  you  know  of  any  white  men 
ever  being  disfranchised  for  petty  offenses  ? — A.  I  could  not  tell 
whether  those  white  men  were  disfranchised  or  not,  for  I  didn’t  know 
anything  about  it. 

Mr.  Vance.  The  conviction  of  felony  itself  disfranchises  the  convict. 

The  Witness.  Conviction  to  the  penitentiary  disqualifies  a  man 
from  voting,  unless  he  is  pardoned  out  by  the  governor  two  days  or  a 
month  before  the.expiratiou  of  his  term. 

Mr.  Vance.  But  his  right  of  franchise  can  be  restored. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


132 

The  Witness.  Yes;  by  an  act  of  the  legislature. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  colored  man  who  had  been  convicted  to  the 
penitentiary? — A.  No;  nor  white  man  either. 

By  Mr.  YAnce  : 

Q.  Have  you  said  anything  yet  to  show  that  the  law  of  which  we  are 
speaking  was  passed  for  the  purpose  of  disfranchising  colored  men  ? — 
A.  I  still  hold  that  the  law  was  made  to  disfranchise  colored  men. 

Q.  I  do  not  see  how  you  have  yet  made  it  appear? — A.  It  appears 
clear  enough  to  me.  Bor  instance— I  hate  to  say  it,  and  I  say  it  to  my 
own  shame,  and  that  ot  my  own  people,  but  these  laws  against  petty 
larceny  operates  more  hardly  against  colored  people  than  white  people 
everywhere,  and  especially  in  the  South.  Many  of  the  colored  people 
are  very  poor  and  have  nothing  to  live  on.  They  have  been  brought  up 
in  such  a  way  that  they  are  almost  taught  to  steal,  as  well  as  compelled 
to  by  their  poverty.  But  if  they  do  steal  anything,  however  small, 
they  are  sent  to  the  penitentiary,  and  that  disfranchises  them.  And  I 
believe — of  course  I  do  not  know,  but  I  believe — that  the  law  was 
passed  for  the  purpose  of  disfranchising  us. 

Q.  Do  you  not  think  it  may  have  been  done  also  with  an  idea  of  ap¬ 
propriating  the  avails  of  their  labors,  for  very  slight  offenses  in  some 
eases'? — a.  1  don’t  know  how  that  might  be. 

Q.  Are  these  men  a  source  of  profit  to  the  railroads? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  the  railroads  pay  the  State  for  the  labor  ot  the  men  ? — A.  The 
State  is  paid  for  their  labor,  but  not  more  than  their  support  amounts  to. 

Q.  Then  the  railroad  gets  the  benefit  of  their  labor? — A.  I  do  not 
know  about  that.  1  kuow  the  State  has  to  pay  for  the  guards  who  guard 
them  while  working  on  the  railroad. 

By  Mr.  VANCE : 

Q.  You  intimated  in  your  testimony  that  white  men  are  not  sent  to 
work  on  railroads  ? — A.  I  may  have  said  that,  but  in  fact  I  do  not  know; 
I  meant  to  say  that  I  never  saw  any,  and  never  knew  of  any  being  sent 
out.  I  kuow  they  said  there  were  three  hundred  and  fifty  colored  men 
in  that  penitentiary,  and  I  did  not  see  more  than  ten  colored  men  there; 
but  I  saw  about  a  hundred  white  men  there  making  shoes,  clothing, 
&c. ;  and  the  man  who  took  me  around  said — and  he  was  a  white  man 
and  a  Democrat — he  said  that  the  reason  of  it  was  that  the  white  men 
were  hired  out  to  work  on  the  railroads. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  complaints  of  ill-treatment  of  men  on  the  rail¬ 
roads  or  public  works  ? — A.  No,  sir.  On  the  1st  of  January  I  went  on  an 
excursion,  and  saw  people  from  all  parts  of  the  State,  from  Goldsboro 
and  Weldon  and  Greensboro  and  other  places  ;  I  talked  with  the  people 
generally,  and  they  made  no  complaint  whatever.  The  only  thing  they 
said  to  me  was  they  begged  me  to  come  and  live  there ;  and  I  saw  such 
prosperity  that  I  had  a  great  desire  to  settle  there,  and  if  I  hadn’t  been 
married  I  think  I  would  have  staid  there. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  that  in  the  constitution,  which  provides  that 
convict  labor  may  be  hired  out,  there  is  also  a  provision  that  they  shall 
be  superintended  by  a  responsible  State  official  and  are  under  his  con¬ 
stant  supervision,  so  that  they  are  not  in  the  hands  of  irresponsible 
contractors  ? — A.  I  know  that  the  men  who  guard  them  are  paid  by  the 
State  government. 

Q.  They  are  simply  working  for  the  railroads  under  the  supervision 
of  a  State  official  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


133 


TESTIMONY  OF  JULIUS  A.  BONITZ. 

Julius  A.  Bonitz  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  Vance: 

Question.  State  your  residence  aud  occupation  ? — Answer.  I  reside  at 
Goldsboro;  I  am  editor  and  proprietor  of  the  Goldsboro  Messenger,  and 
have  been  for  the  past  thirteen  years. 

Q.  Goldsboro  is  about  the  center  of  this  movement  of  the  colored  peo¬ 
ple  to  the  West? — A.  Yes,  sir;  a  large  number  of  1 exodusters 7  have 
left  mv  section. 

Q.  You  are  acquainted  with  the  region  from  which  they  come,  the 
circumstances  aud  condition  of  the  people,  &c.? — A.  Yes,  sir;  intimately. 

Q.  Be  good  enough  to  state  to  the  committee  your  impressions,  and 
the  facts  upon  which  they  are  based,  as  to  the  reason  of  the  exodus — ■ 
whether  it  arises  from  natural  laws  and  causes  of  migration,  or  from 
political  oppression,  or  from  the  injustice  of  their  white  fellow-citizens, 
or  what? — A.  It  is  difficult  to  get  at  the  reasons.  I  see  no  reason  why 
they  should  leave  North  Carolina.  There  is  certainly  no  political  op¬ 
pression  there.  My  paper,  I  believe,  has  the  largest  circulation  of  any 
in  the  district;  I  may  safely  say  it  is  considered  the  leading  paper  in 
the  district;  iu  fact,  the  leading  paper  in  East  North  Carolina — that  is, 
east  of  Raleigh.  I  have  endeavored  in  vain  to  discover  any  reason  why 
the  colored  people  should  leave  North  Carolina.  Furtheimore,  I  find, 
so  far  as  my  acquaintance  goes,  that  those  who  have  left  my  section  are 
of  a  roving,  migratory  disposition.  They  look  upon  the  prospect  of  a 
journey  North  as  a  grand  excursion.  If  the  movement  had  continued 
as  it  began,  several  thousands,  perhaps,  would  have  left,  where  only  a 
hundred  has  goue  now.  It  has  had  a  very  demoralizing  effect  upon  the 
laborer  in  our  section.  Just  at  present  there  is  a  lull  in  the  exodus;  hun¬ 
dreds,  perhaps  thousands,  are  uneasy,  undecided,  unsettled.  A  very 
little  would  induce  them  to  go.  The  return  of  a  few  who  left  to  go  to 
Indiana  has  caused  a  lull,  and  it  remains  to  be  seen  what  the  future  will  be. 

As  I  said,  there  is  no  apparent  cause  for  their  going.  I  think  Mr. 
Otey’s  evidence  is  correct  aud  Mr.  O’Hara’s  evidence  is  correct  when 
they  say  that,  so  far  as  the  condition  of  the  colored  people  are  concerned, 
there  is  no  oppression  in  North  Carolina.  It  is  true  that  in  my  section, 
and  throughout  the  eastern  portion  of  the  State,  only  perhaps  one-tenth 
of  the  white  population  are  Republicans,  and  the  other  nine-tenths  are 
Democrats,  while  the  colored  population  are  Republicans,  solid.  At 
the  same  time,  the  colored  men  are  allowed  to  vote  as  they  please,  to 
work  for  what  wages  they  choose  and  for  whom  they  please,  and  to  do 
as  they  please — of  course  always  within  the  laws  of  the  State. 

The  first  intimation  I  had  of  this  exodus,  some  meetings  were  got  up 
in  our  section  and  in  Lenoir  County,  under  the  auspices  of  Sam  Perry 
and  Williams — I  do  not  remember  Williams’  first  name  or  initials.  They 
were  holding  meetings  in  that  section  for  some  months.  These  meetings 
began  in  the  spring,  and  continued  during  the  summer.  At  these  meet¬ 
ings  incendiary  speeches  were  made;  the  unpleasant  features  of  life  in 
North  Carolina  were  dwelt  upon  and  exaggerated,  while  Indiana  was 
pictured  as  a  perfect  paradise  for  colored  men.  Letters  were  read  from 
Indiana,  stating  that  the  colored  people  there  were  treated  just  like 
white  men  ;  that  colored  laborers  were  permitted  to  sit  at  the  same  table 
with  their  white  employers;  that  their  children  were  allowed  to  go  to 
school  with  the  children  of  white  men.  They  were  told  that  they  could 
get  from  a  dollar  to  a  dollar  and  a  half  a  day  for  their  labor.  I  have 


134 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


been  informed  that  this  was  what  was  told  the  colored  men  at  these 
meetings;  I  never  attended  one  of  them  myself.  I  spunk  irom  common 
report.  I  have  seen  papers  printed,  and  have  myself  priuted  circulars 
upon  the  subject;  1  have  printed  notices  for  Taylor  Evans,  calling  these 
meetings;  I  did  all  his  printing  at  one  time.  A  number  of  societies 
were  organized  in  the  interest's  of  this  exodus  movement.  There  was 
one  organization  at  Stony  Greek;  another  at  Bear  Greek;  and  other 
organizations  at  other  places  in  the  county.  1  am  informed  that  the 
Stony  Greek  organization  had  a  membership  of  over  a  thousand. 

I  do  not  know  so  much  about  the  organizations  in  Lenoir  County.  I 
know  nothing  of  them  except  by  report. 

It  seems  that  these  men,  at  least  Perry,  required  the  colored  people  to 
pay  a  fee,  and  I  think  he  visited  Indiana  ;  at  least  he  visited  Washing¬ 
ton  ;  whether  he  visited  Indiana  or  not  1  do  not  know,  but  I  know  he 
came  here.  On  his  return  to  La  Grange,  he  of  course  did  everything  in 
his  power  to  influence  the  colored  people  to  go  to  Indiana.  In  ope 
township  there  was  scarcely  a  colored  man  left  in  the  township,  or 
woman,  or  child,  but  what  was  talking  about  going,  and  anxious  to  go, 
or  at  least  contemplated  going.  I  think  that  inducements  were  offered 
them  ;  1  was  told  they  were  promised  that  their  fare  would  be  paid  ;  at 
any  rate,  that  it  was  desirable  that  they  should  pay  their  fare  as  far  as 
Washington  Gity,  and  on  arriving  here  their  expenses  would  be  paid  to 
Indiana,  and  on  arriving  in  Indiana  they  would  be  supplied  with  homes 
and  labor. 


Bv  Mr.  Vance  : 

I/ 

Q.  Have  you  been  present  at  any  of  these  meetings,  or  conversed 
w  ith  anybody  in  regard  to  what  occurred  at  them  y — A.  I  have  not  been 
at  any  of  the  meetings,  but  1  have  seen  colored  men  w  ho  have  been 
there;  I  have  seen  one  colored  man  that  quit  the  meetings,  because  he 
did  not  agree  with  the  spirit  of  the  organization. 

Q.  Explain  the  condition  of  the  colored  people  in  your  section,  the 
average  price  of  labor,  and  the  opportunities  of  the  colored  men  to  do 
well. — A.  The  condition  of  the  colored  population  in  our  section  has 
greatly  improved,  both  morally  and  otherwise.  I  will  speak  first  of 
educational  facilities.  They  are  as  good  as  those  of  the  whites.  I  speak 
of  their  free  schools  ;  of  course  the  whites  have  better  educational  facili¬ 
ties  in  the  shape  of  colleges,  though  the  colored  people  have  a  college 
at  Raleigh.  I  am  chairman  of  the  school  committee  in  my  own  town 
and  township,  having  in  my  charge  both  the  white  and  colored  schools, 
and  have  been  for  several  years.  I  have  made  arrangements  with  a 
man  named  Jones,  who  represents  a  society  of  Friends  in  the  North — I 
think  it  is  called  the  Freedmen’s  Aid  Society — who  supplies  one  teacher. 
I  have  employed  three  excellent  teachers,  all  colored,  and  we  have  a 
school  in  operation  eight  or  ten  months  in  the  year,  in  w  hich  between 
two  hundred  and  three  hundred  children  are  taught.  I  visited  the 


school  last  week,  and  then  found  that  they  had  an  average  attendance 
of  twro  hundred  and  sixty  six.  There  are  four  teachers,  three  of  whom 
are  employed  by  my  committee  and  paid  by  the  State.  The  money7  that 
is  necessary  to  keep  the  school  in,  operation  is  raised  by  taxation.  By 
the  constitution  of  the  State  seventy-live  per  cent,  of  the  poll-tax  goes 
to  the  school  fund,  and  the  schools  are  principally  supported  from  the 
poll-tax.  For  instance,  in  Wayne  Gounty  last  year  -$2,153.46  was  raised 
for  school  purposes.  In  my  own  county  I  have  made  an  estimate  that 
about  two  thousand  dollars  in  all  are  raised  on  taxes  for  school  pur¬ 
poses  from  the  colored  people,  while  the  expense  of  the  county  for  car- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


135 


rying  on  the  colored  schools  is  about  $3,300,  thirteen  hundred  dollars  of 
which,  therefore,  must  of  course  be  paid  from  the  taxes  upon  the  white 
people.  The  Democratic  legislature  has  established  a  normal  school  at 
Fayetteville,  with  an  annual  appropriation  of  two  thousand  dollars, 
which  receives  assistance  from  the  public  fund  and  other  sources.  The 
object  of  this  school  is  to  qualify  colored  people  to  become  teachers  of 
their  race.  This  school  will  receive,  I  am  confident,  the  best  encour¬ 
agement  from  the  white  people  of  the  State,  the  Democratic  party  iu 
particular. 

I  am  also  director  of  the  asylum  for  the  colored  insane  of  the  State ; 
in  fact,  I  am  one  of  the  building  committee,  and  secretary  of  the  board 
of  directors.  We  are  now  building  at  Goldsborough,  and  will  have 
ready  for  occupancy  by  the  middle  of  March,  the  main  part  and  one 
wing  of  a  building  that,  when  built,  will  cost  between  sixty  and  seventy 
thousand  dollars.  The  appropriation  was  made  at  your  suggestion, 
governor  [referring  to  Governor  Vance].  We  have  already  expended, 
including  contracts  given  out,  about  forty-three  thousand  dollars. 
When  this  portion  of  the  building  is  completed,  there  will  be  accommo¬ 
dations  for  about  a  hundred  and  twenty-five  insane  persons — colored 
insane,  of  course;  no  others  are  admitted.  As  soon  as  the  legislature 
meets  again  another  appropriation  of  twenty  thousand  dollars  will  he 
made  for  the  completion  of  the  other  wing.  The  building  is  a  creditable 
three  story  building.  We  have  now  completed,  besides  the  offices,  re¬ 
ception  rooms,  &c.,  one  hundred  and  twenty  five  rooms  or  wards  for 
patients.  The  building  is  supplied  with  all  the  modern  improvements. 
The  heating  apparatus,  laundry,  and  water  fixtures  cost  eleven  thou¬ 
sand  dollars.  We  congratulate  ourselves  that  we  made  our  contract 
when  building  material  was  remarkably  cheap;  the  portion  that  we  are 
to  have  built  for  forty-three  thousand  dollars,  if  the  contract  were  to  be 
made  now,  could  not  be  built  for  less  than  sixty  thousand  dollars.  It 
is  estimated  that  we  have  two  hundred  insane  in  the  State. 

So  much  for  educational  facilities  and  the  comfort  of  the  unfortu¬ 
nate. 

Q.  Give  the  committee  an  idea  of  the  average  price  of  wages,  what 
colored  people  can  make  by  cropping  for  themselves  on  shares,  &c.  ! — 
A.  Well,  governor,  that,  as  you  know,  depends  very  much  on  the  in¬ 
dustry  and  capacity  of  the  laborer,  among  black  men  as  wed  as  white. 
Tlie  wages  for  ordinary  farm  labor  is  from  seven  to  ten  dollars  a  month  ; 
some  excellent  hands  receive  twelve  dollars  a  montip 

Q.  With  rations  found! — A.  Yes;  with  rations  found — supplies  for 
a  week’s  support — and  a  house  and  fire  wood  furnished.  I  have  a  col¬ 
ored  man  in  my  employ  whom  I  have  paid  ten  dollars  a  mouth  for  the 
past  twelve  or  thirteen  years.  Colored  mechanics  find  no  trouble  iu 
getting  employment  ;  and  we  have  some  excellent  mechanics  among 
the  colored  people — carpenters,  blacksmiths,  shoemakers,  bricklayers, 
buggy-makers — in  fact,  almost  every  trade  is  represented. 

Q.  What  are  about  the  average  wages  of  these  mechanics! — A. 
Well,  they  can  make  from  a  dollar  to  a  dollar  and  a  half  a  day;  good 
hand  find  no  difficulty  in  getting  a  dollar  and  a  half  a  day.  I  have 
paid  that  myself,  again  and  again. 

Q.  Is  there  any  discrimination  shown  in  favor  of  white  mechanics, 
as  against  colored  ones! — A.  Not  the  least;  if  any  discrimination  is 
shown  it  is  the  other  way.  Indeed,  I  have  heard  complaints  on  the 
part  of  white  mechanics  that  colored  mechanics  could  get  work  when 
they  could  not.  A  good  deal  of  jealousy  on  this  point  has  been  man¬ 
ifested  on  the  part  of  some.  Being  the  editor  of  a  newspaper,  such 


136 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


things  come  to  me  more  frequently  than  they  would  to  the  most  of  per¬ 
sons.  1  have  known  white  mechanics,  who  were  Democrats,  complain 
because  Democrats  employed  colored  mechanics,  who  did  not  vote  the 
Democratic  ticket,  in  preference  to  them. 

Q.  Is  there  any  discrimination  in  the  matter  of  renting  lands  ? — A. 
None  whatever.  I  speak  advisedly  and  knowingly  when  I  say  that  the 
majority  of  planters  prefer  reliable  colored  tenants  to  the  ordinary  white 
tenants.  So  far  as  there  is  any  discrimination  it  is  in  favor  of  the  col¬ 
ored  man  and  against  the  white  man.  Of  course,  colored  men  who  are 
known  to  be  industrious  and  good  managers  are  preferred  to  the  lazy 
and  negligent  ones  ;  but  the  same  thing  is  true  of  - white  men. 

Q.  What  are  the  usual  terms  upon  which  land  is  rented  ? — A.  One- 
fourth  is  the  usual  rent — the  landlord  gets  one-fourth,  I  mean. 

Q.  Who  furnishes  supplies? — A.  The  landlord  furnishes  supplies, 
and  horses  or  mules,  &c.,  with  which  to  put  in  the  crop  and  carry  on 
the  work.  The  supplies  are  charged,  and  of  course  deducted  from  the 
crop.  If  he  has  sufficient  means  to  make  his  own  crop,  of  course  all 
that  he  raises,  except  the  one-fourth  for  rent,  is  his. 

Q.  And  his  protits  depend  not  only  upon  his  industry,  but  upon  his 
extravagance  in  the  use  of  his  supplies  while  the  crop  is  growing  l — A. 
Yes,  sir.  I  know  a  colored  man  living  near  Mount  Olive,  twelve  miles 
from  Goldsborough,  who  is  the  owner  of  three  hundred  and  sixteen  acres  of 
laud.  His  name  is  Calvin  Simmons.  He  has,  within  the  last  year  or  two, 
finished  paying  for  the  plantation.  He  bought  it  some  years  ago,  on  long 
time,  at  the  rate  of  ten  dollars  an  acre.  He  paid  for  it  himself — and 
his  boys — with  what  they  raised  off  from  it.  More  than  that,  I  have  got 
it  from  his  own  mouth  that  he  cleared,  within  the  last  year,  nearly  five 
hundred  dollars  on  his  crop.  I  don’t  remember  the  exact  number  of 
years  it  has  taken  him  to  pay  for  it.  I  know  a  number  of  instances  in 
which  colored  men  have  bought  lands  upon  the  same  terms,  and  paid 
for  them,  and  now  have  them  for  homes  of  their  own.  In  my  own  town 
there  is  a  man  named  William  Bernard,  who  owns  a  tine  house  and  lot. 
Not  long  ago  I  offered  him  a  thousand  dollars  for  his  place  ;  but  he  re¬ 
fused  it,  on  the  ground  that  he  did  not  need  the  money.  It  is  well 
located,  a  valuable  piece,  and  increasing  in  value  every  \ ear. 

Q  In  your  observation,  and  extensive  acquaintance,  is  there  anything 
in  the  laws  of  the  State,  or  in  the  business  customs  of  the  community, 
or  in  the  practices  and  methods  of  labor,  or  anything  of  that  kind,  to 
prevent  the  colored  men  doing  as  well  as  the  white  men  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina? — A.  No  discrimination  has  come  within  my  knowledge,  if  tliere 
is  any  discrimination  it  is  in  behalf  of  the  colored  people. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  landlords  as  a  general  rule  prefer  good  colored 
tenants? — A.  Yes,  sir;  there  is  no  doubt  of  that. 

Q.  White  men  do  not  get  any  better  terms  than  colored  men  ? — A. 
No,  sir ;  none  at  all. 

Q.  And  sometimes  white  mechanics  have  complained  that  colored 
mechanics  are  given  the  preference? — A.  Yes.  sir.  Being  editor  of  a 
paper,  and  chairman  of  the  Democratic  county  central  committee  at 
the  same  time,  I  have  heard  this  complaint  frequently.  They  have 
come  to  me  with  reproaches,  saying,  “  Why,  1  vote  the  Democratic 
ticket,  and  here  is  a  negro  who  votes  the  Republican  ticket,  and  he  can 
get  work  of  you  Democrats  when  1  cannot.” 

Q.  Is  there  any  feeling  of  hostility  on  the  part  of  white  men  toward 
the  colored  men  ;  any  disposition  to  oppress  or  u  bulldoze”  them,  as  it 
is  sometimes  called  — A.  I  have  not  heard  of  anything  of  the  sort.  I 
have  been  in  political  life  for  fourteen  years,  and  within  that  time  I  have 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


137 


not  hoard  of  any  disturbance.  There  has  been  no  social  disturbance  in 
my  section.  I  have  heard,  of  course,  of  some  prejudice  amongst  the 
lower  classes — the  same  as  you  will  hud  in  the  north.  But  so  far  as  in¬ 
telligent  white  men  are  concerned,  they  all  feel  kindly  toward  the  colored 
man,  and  are  disposed  to  help  and  encourage  him.  In  saying  this  I 
speak  knowingly.  So  far  as  “  bulldoziug77  is  concerned,  L  do  not  know 
whether  I  apprehend  your  meaning. 

Q.  I  mean,  for  instance,  whether  you  kuow  of  landlords  using  their 
power  as  landlords  to  compel  their  tenants  to  vote  as  they  desire  them 
to;  or  white  men  in  any  way  compelling  or  trying  to  compel  colored 
men  to  vote  their  ticket? — A.  If  there  is  any  bulldozing  it  is  on  the 
part  of  colored  men. 

Q.  In  what  way? — A.  I  have  known  cases  where  colored  men  have 
compelled  other  colored  men  to  vote  the  Republican  ticket,  contrary  to 
their  wishes;  that  is,  have  brought  compulsory  influence  to  bear  upon 
them  sufficient  to  accomplish  that  purpose.  I  have  known  instances 
where  colored  men  have  said  to  me,  voluntarily,  that  they  were  going 
to  vote  the  Democratic  ticket;  but  when  election  day  came  they  turned 
around  and  voted  the  Republican  ticket.  Some  of  these  men  were  in 
my  employ.  They  would  come  to  me,  unsolicited,  and  tell  me  they  were 
going  to  vote  the  Democratic  ticket,  but  on  election  day  would  vote  the 
Republican  ticket.  And  the  reason  they  would  give  was  this:  These 
white  Republicans  have  had  what  they  call  their  “strikers’7  out,  who 
have  said  to  these  colored  men  who  were  about  to  vote  the  Democratic 
ticket,  you  must  not  do  so;  you  must  vote  the  Republican  ticket.  And 
sometimes  his  colored  associates  would  say  that;  or  his  preacher  or  his 
wife.  And  those  two  agencies  are  frequently  resorted  to  to  keep  the 
colored  men  in  the  Republican  party.  Tne  only  bulldozing  I  know  is 
of  that  sort.  If  a  colored  man  were  to  vote  the  Democratic  ticket  he 
would  be  ostracized  amoug  his  race,  if  not  actually  mobbed ;  he  would 
be  turned  out  of  the  church  and  divorced  from  his  wife. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  unjust  discrimination  against  colored  people 
in  the  courts? — A.  My  observation  has  been  considerable  in  that  re¬ 
spect,  as  in  other  matters.  I  have  atteuded  the  courts  of  different 
counties  in  my  part  of  the  State.  In  my  own  county  I  know  of  no  in¬ 
stance  where  a  colored  man  has  been  imposed  upon  by  a  white  man. 
Of  course,  ordinary  bar-room  fracases  and  affrays  have  occurred ;  but 
such  things  occur  among  the  trifling  classes  of  both  races  everywhere ; 
and  yet,  we  have  not  had  many  of  these.  In  fact,  in  those  that  we  have 
had,  do  not  understand  me  to  charge  the  blame  upon  the  colored  people 
any  more  than  upon  the  white,  and  perhaps  not  so  much.  We  have,  I 
am  happy  to  say,  a  most  excellent  colored  element  in  my  section — peace¬ 
able  and  industrious.  To  show  that  the  colored  people  are  not  imposed 
upon  by  the  whites,  I  will  relate  these  facts :  We  have  had,  within  the 
last  thirteen  years,  eleven  or  twelve  murders  in  my  county.  Five  white 
men  and  one  white  woman  have  been  killed;  the  other  murders  have 
been  among  the  colored  people — that  is,  colored  persons  have  been 
killed  by  colored  persons.  In  those  cases  where  white  persons  were 
killed,  the  murderers  were  colored  persons,  or  the  evidence  directly 
pointed  to  the  murderers  being  colored  men  ;  but  in  no  single  instance 
in  thirteen  years  has  a  colored  person  been  killed  by  a  white  person. 

Q.  Five  white  men  and  one  white  woman  have  been  killed  by  colored 
men  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  some  of  the  murderers  have  been  apprehended,  and 
some  have  made  their  escape ;  but  it  was  known  who  they  were. 

Q.  1  will  ask  you,  while  you  are  upon  that  point,  to  relate  briefly  the  cir¬ 
cumstances  connected  with  the  “Worley77  murder. — A.  Tkeonein  connee- 


138 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


tion  with  which  rape  was  supposed  to  he  perpetrated — O,  yes.  The  com 
id  unity  is  really  under  many  obligations  to  the  colored  element  for  their 
activity  in  bringing  those  murderers  to  justice.  It  was  the  most  atrocious 
murder  ever  committed  in  our  State.  The  victims  consisted  of  a  father, 
mother,  and  three  infant  children.  They  were  tenants  in  a  neighbor¬ 
hood  known  as  u  The  Islands,”  that  had  previously  been  occupied  and 
inhabited  altogether  by  colored  people.  The  land  is  owned  by  a  Mr. 
Atkinson,  who  concluded  that  he  would  make  a  change  and  settle  some 
white  tenants  on  some  of  his  land,  and  did  so.  It  seems  that  on  that 
account  some  jealousy  or  hostility  arose  among,  some  of  the  colored  ten¬ 
ants  toward  these  white  tenants.  That  is  one  report  of  the  origin  of 
the  trouble.  Another  report  is  that  one  of  these  colored  men  had  fre¬ 
quently  made  remarks  that  this  man’s  wife  was  a  mighty  pretty  woman, 
was  too  good  for  her  husband,  and  that  he  certainly  must  become  ac¬ 
quainted  with  her.  That  was  the  evidence  adduced  on  trial.  The  mur¬ 
der  was  committed  some  time  in  the  night;  the  first  that  was  known  of 
the  murder  was  that  the  husband  and  wife  were  found  next  morning, 
both  murdered.  The  three  children — one  a  child  four  years  old,  the 
next  not  quite  three,  and  the  other  an  infant  a  few  months  old — were 
lelt  during  a  cold  February  night,  without  any  tire,  in  a  lonely  log 
cabin,  with  the  father  outside  and  the  mother  right  at  the  back  steps, 
both  with  their  brains  knocked  out  and  their  corpses  terribly  mangled  ; 
there  was  none  to  guard  the  children  except  a  faithful  watch-dog.  For 
a  long  time  it  was  impossible  to  obtain  any  clue  to  the  murderers;  it 
was  a  perfect  mystery  what  could  have  been  the  inducement  or  provo¬ 
cation  to  such  a  terrible  crime.  A  post-mortem  examination  showed 
that  Mrs.  Worley  had  been  outraged  before  she  was  killed.  Of  course 
the  entire  community  was  terribly  excited,  and  most  justly  so.  The 
murdered  persons  had  been  peaceable,  unoffending  citizens,  in  the  hum¬ 
blest  walks  of  life,  as  poor  as  they  could  possibly  be;  so  the  murder 
could  not  have  been  committed  for  the  purpose  of  obtaining  any  money 
from  them.  Every  effort  was  made  to  ferret  out  the  guilty  parties. 
The  colored  people,  no  doubt,  felt  their  responsibility  in  the  matter — 
the  better  class  in  that  section  ;  and  they  requested  and  urged  permis¬ 
sion  to  organize  a  jury  of  inquest.  This  was  readily  granted  by  the 
sheriff;  they  were  permitted  to  deputize  other  sheriffs,  and  to  have  all 
the  facilities  that  a  regularly  organized  court  of  inquest  could  have  had. 
Alter  working  for  a  week  or  so  they  finally  succeeded  in  getting  a  clue 
to  what  they  supposed  would  lead  to  the  apprehension  of  the  guilty 
ones.  The  rest  of  the  story  was  given  in  evidence  when  the  case  came 
to  trial.  A  colored  man  named  Jerry  Cox  was  arrested  on  suspicion. 
At  first  he  denied  that  he  had  had  anything  to  do  with  it  or  knew  any¬ 
thing  about  it ;  but  when  he  saw  that  the  net  of  circumstantial  evidence 
which  was  woven  around  him  seemed  complete,  these  colored  men 
finally  succeeded  in  getting  a  confession  from  him  ;  and  the  community 
is  very  thankful  to  these  colored  men  that  the  guilty  parties,  this  Jerry 
Cox.  and  three  besides  him,  were  finally  brought  to  justice.  They  were 
tried,  convicted,  and  hanged. 

Q.  Through  the  instrumentality  of  these  colored  men? — A.  Yes,  sir. 
We  never  would  have  succeeded  in  getting  the  evidence  to  convict  the 
murderers  but  for  them. 

So  far  as  the  courts  of  justice  are  concerned,  I  think  Mr.  O’Hara’s 
statements  are  correct  in  most  particulars.  There  is  no  discrimination 
made  between  white  men  and  colored  men  in  our  courts  of  justice. 
The  great  trouble  seems  to  be  to  get  reliable  evidence  before  the  jury; 
but  that  trouble  arises  without  regard  to  the  color  of  the  party  impli- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


139 


cated  or  on  trial.  The  majority  of  colored  witnesses  do  not  seem  to 
understand  the  nature  of  an  oath;  that  is  the  great  difficulty  in  our 
courts.  Of  course  that  is  the  kind  of  witnesses  that  are  more  generally 
put  upon  the  stand  by  this  class  of  criminals.  Respectable  colored  men 
seldom,  if  ever,  have  any  business  in  the  courts.  Rut  in  regard  to 
color,  I  have  known  of  no  discrimination  in  our  courts. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  discrimination  in  the  infliction  of  punishment 
by  judges? — A.  I  have  not.  If  there  is  any  discrimination,  it  is  in 
favor  of  the  colored  men.  I  remember  one  striking  instance  of  this. 
Two  white  men,  it  seems,  had  left  Greenville  to  go  home;  they  resided 
some  distance  in  the  country.  They  were  evidently  in  liquor.  On  their 
way  home  they  overtook  or  were  overtaken  by  a  couple  of  colored  men. 
They  got  into  a  cutting  scrape,  and  had  a  terrible  row.  Both  were  in¬ 
dicted  for  the  affray.  Our  present  governor,  Mr.  Jarvis,  was  attorney 
for  the  colored  men;  while  Major  Latham  was  the  attorney  for  the 
white  men.  The  white  men  were  put  on  the  staud,  and  swore  that  as 
they  were  going  home,  two  colored  men  jumped  out  of  an  ambush  and 
assaulted  them.  The  colored  men  were  put  on  the  stand  and  swore  to 
exactly  the  opposite ;  that  they  were  on  their  way  home,  when  the  white 
men  came  up  behind  them  and  assaulted  them.  Both  sides  were  ably 
defended.  When  the  case  was  given  to  the  jury,  the  jury  acquitted  t  lie 
colored  men  and  convicted  the  white  men.  The  judge,  a  Democratic 
judge,  then  ordered  that  an  indictment  be  found  against  the  white  men 
for  pejjury,  on  the  testimony  of  the  colored  men. 

I  could  cite  numbers  of  instances  of  that  kind.  There  was  the  case 
where  William  Bernard,  a  leading  and  influential  Republican,  who  had 
made  himself  obnoxious  to  leading  Democrats,  but  who  had  never  been 
molested.  He  was  charged  with  highway  robbery  upon  an  old  man; 
the  same  old  man  died  last  week,  seventy-nine  years  old.  He  Avas 
seventy-six  years  old  at  the  time  of  the  robbery — that  was  three  years 
ago  The  evidence  against  Bernard  was  the  strongest  evidence  1  ever 
heard.  I  published  it  at  the  time.  Both  white  and  black,  that  heard 
the  evidence,  expected  his  conviction.  The  jury  consisted  of  white 
men;  there  was  not  a  single  colored  man  on  the  jury.  I  cite  this  to 
show  that  no  political  considerations  enter  our  courts;  for  he  was  a 
leading  obnoxious  Republican;  one  of  these  u strikers,’7  ready  to  do 
any  dirty  work  for'  the  party  that  was  needed.  Yet,  when  the  jury 
rendered  their  verdict,  he  was  acquitted.  They  had  their  doubts,  and 
they  gave  him  the  benefit  of  the  doubt. . 

Another  case  was  that  where  a  colored  man  named  Lewis  Taylor  was 
chargvd  with  killing  Calvin  Ethridge,  a  white  man.  There  was  no 
doubt  that  he  had  beeu  hired  to  do  the  killing  by  two  white  men  ;  in 
fact,  the  two  white  men  employed  counsel  for  him  when  his  case  came 
to  trial.  Intelligent  white  men  on  the  other  side  employed  counsel  to 
prosecute  Taylor.  The  case  was  removed  from  Wayne  County  to  Duplin 
County — one  of  the  strongest  Democratic  counties  in  the  State.  He  was 
tried  before  a  white  jury,  and  the  jury  acquitted  him.  Here,  again, 
there  was  a  doubt  in  the  minds  of  the  jury,  and  the  accused,  although 
a  colored  man,  was  given  the  benefit  of  the  doubt.  Yet  everybody  to¬ 
day  believes  him  guilty.  That  case  cost  the  county  more  than  twenty- 
five  hundred  dollars. 

My  friend  Otey,  here,  of  course  speaks  only  from  report  when  he  says 
that  white  men  who  have  been  sentenced  to  the  penitentiary  are  not 
sent  out  to  work  on  the  railroads.  Now,  1  know  of  white  men  who  have 
been  sent  to  work  on  the  railroads;  I  know  of  such  a  case  in  my  own 
county.  A  white  man  named  Nuchin  was  sentenced  to  the  penitentiary 


140 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


for  five  years,  for  stealing  a  pistol  from  a  colored  man  named  Winn. 
His  wife  was  a  very  pitiable  object,  certainly  deserving  of  charity ;  and 
I  interested  myself  in  his  behalf,  and  succeeded  in  getting  up  a  strong 
petition  for  his  pardon  ;  and  the  governor,  with  some  reluctance,  par¬ 
doned  him.  While  he  was  in  the  penitentiary  he  was  sent  out  to  work 
on  the  Atkinson  and  Raleigh  Railroad.  He  was  the  only  white  man 
pardoned  out  of  the  penitentiary  by  our  governor  here  [indicating 
Governor  Vance];  while  three  or  more  colored  men  were  pardoned  out 
by  him,  before  the  expiration  of  their  term.  I  think  you  pardoned  only 
one  white  man,  governor1? 

Mr.  Vance.  Yes,  sir;  and  yet  I  think  I  was  accused  of  being  a  little 
too  liberaj. — A.  Yes,  sir;  the  principal  complaint  against  you  on  that 
score  was  in  the  case  of  Stephen  Darden,  who  was  sentenced  to  be 
hanged  for  burglary  and  attempt  at  rape.  The  governor  commuted  his 
punishment  to  imprisonment  for  life. 

I  wish  to  express,  with  your  permission,  the  feeling  of  our  people 
with  regard  to  this  exodus.  Our  white  people,  regardless  of  politics, 
are  opposed  to  it.  It  is  resulting  in  great  demoralization  to  our  labor. 
The  colored  man  is  the  best  laborer  we  can  possibly  tiiul  on  the  face  of 
the  earth. 

Q.  What  is  the  opinion  of  the  more  intelligent  and  well  disposed  col¬ 
ored  men  ? — A.  They,  too,  are  opposed  to  it ;  I  do  not  know  of  a  leading 
colored  man  in  my  county  that  is  working  in  the  interest  of  this  ex¬ 
odus  movement.  I  cannot  account  for  it.  No  intelligent  man,  of  either 
race,  can  account  for  such  a  disposition  to  leave  takiug  possession  of 
our  people.  Leading  white  men,  whether  Democrats  or  Republicans, 
are  opposed  to  the  movemeut.  Some  Democrats,  for  political  reasons, 
would  be  glad  to  have  the  colored  people  go;  but  those  who  are  disin¬ 
terested,  of  all  parties,  regard  the  exodus  as  a  calamity  to  both  whites 
and  blacks,  and  advise  the  colored  people  not  to  go. 

Q.  You  mentioned  that  the  exodus  had  a  demoralizing  effect  upon 
labor  in  your  section  ;  explain  in  what  way. — A.  1  will  give  you  one 
instance  out  of  many  that  will  show  you.  Needham  Smith,  a  well-to  do 
farmer  near  Goldsboro*,  had  a  contract  or  agreement  with  three  colored 
men  to  crop  on  his  land  this  year.  He  supposed  that  he  had  succeeded 
in  gettiug  reliable  and  industrious  tenants  for  the  year.  To  my  own 
knowledge  he  came  to  town  and  purchased  a  couple  of  mules  for  the 
parties,  and  implements  with  which  to  work  the  farm  ;  for  these  they 
were  to  pay  him,  on  time  ;  he  supposed  that  all  was  settled  between  him 
and  the  parties;  they  seemed  to  be  perfectly  satisfied.  But  on  Saturday 
week,  or  Sunday  week,  I  forget  exactly  which,  they  came  and  rather 
surprised  him  by  telling  him  that  they  had  made  up  their  minds  to  go 
to  Indiana,  and  requesting  him  to  take  back  his  mules  and  other 
things.  Of  course  that  caused  him  considerable  expense  and  embarrass¬ 
ment.  If  he  engages  other  men  to  work  his  land,  there  is  no  knowing 
when  they  will  conclude  to  go  to  Indiana,  too.  That  is  an  illustration 
of  the  demoralized  condition  into  which  our  labor  system  has  been 
thrown  by  this  exodus  movement.  Our  farmers  don’t  know  what  to 
do — what  preparations  to  make.  There  seems  to  be  a  lull  in  the  exodus 
there — right  in  that  vicinity — -just  now;  but  if  it  should  receive  a  new 
start — a  fresh  impetus— there  is  no  telling  to  what  extent  it  might  go 
before  it  would  cease,  or  in  what  shape  it  might  leave  us.  And  it  seems 
that  no  intelligent  white  men  or  colored  men,  Republicans  or  Democrats, 
have  any  means  to  stop  it. 

Q.  Let  me  ask  you  in  relation  to  the  credulity  of  the  colored  people  ; 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  141 

are  they  not  suspicious  of  white  people,  as  to  what  they  may  say  on 
political  subjects? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  is  not  that  suspicion  carried  into  all  the  business  of  life? — 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I  think  the  greatest  mistake  that  has  been  made  by  the 
Democrats  of  North  Carolina  in  regard  to  the  exodus  lias  been  this: 
if  we  had  just  advised  them  to  go  they  would  not  have  been  so  willing 
to  go.  We  advised  them  not  to  go,  and  they  at  once  suspected  that  we 
had  some  political* purpose  in  view.  Inasmuch  as  Democrats  advised 
against  the  exodus,  the  colored  people  concluded  that  there  must  be 
something  good  in  it. 

Q.  Are  they  not  credulously  disposed  and  much  more  prone  to  listen 
to  a  stranger,  who  comes  to  them  talking  philanthropy,  than  to  believe 
men  with  whom  they  are  acquainted? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  seen  some 
of  the  papers  circulated  by  this  Taylor  Evans.  He  lives  in  my  town, 
and,  as  I  said  before,  I  did  his  printing  for  him  for  awhile.  He  has  been 
for  years  a  leader  of  the  colored  Republicans  in  our  town  and  neighbor¬ 
hood.  There  are  better  men — a  hundred  times  better  men — among  our 
colored  people.  But  he  is  rather  intelligent,  shrewd,  active,  a  good 
worker,  and  so  manages  to  retain  considerable  influence  over  them. 
Men  who  want  to  be  nominated  to  some  petty  office  give  him  a  suit  of 
clothes  or  something,  and  he  brings  his  men  into  line  and  does  the  work. 
I  believe  he  helped  count  out  my  colored  friend,  Mr.  O’Hara,  here. 

It  seems  that  this  man,  Taylor  Evans,  has  succeeded  in  getting  em¬ 
ployment  from  what  he  calls  an  Emigrant  Aid  Society.  I  have  printed 
haudbills  for  him,  calling  upon  the  colored  people  to  meet  and  consider 
this  exodus  business.  Meetings  were  held  at  various  places  in  the 
county.  At  these  meetings  the  people  were  told  that  they  must  leave 
North  Carolina  before  May.  They  were  told  that  if  the  Democrats 
should  elect  the  next  President  the  colored  people  would  all  have  to 
leave  North  Carolina  or  go  into  slavery.  All  such  rascally  means  were 
resorted  to  in  order  to  induce  the  colored  people  to  leave. 

Q.  You  have  given  us  the  opinion  of  a  large  m  >j  >rity  of  the  Demo¬ 
cratic  party,  and  of  the  more  intelligent  class  of  the  c  dored  people; 
what  is  the  opinion  of  the  white  leaders  of  the  Republican  party  in  our 
State — such  men  as  Governor  Holden,  and  Governor  Smith,  and  Colonel 
Humphrey  ? — A.  I  have  conversed  with  Mr.  Smith,  and  Mr.  Humphrey, 
and  Judge  Stanton,  and  in  fact  with  nearly  all  the  Republican  leaders 
of  the  State,  and  they  express  themselves  unequivocally  as  being  em¬ 
phatically  opposed  to  the  colored  people  leaving  our  State.  They  hold 
that  there  is  no  occasion  for  their  leaving;  that  the  colored  people  have 
it  in  their  own  hands  to  elevate  themselves  where  they  are  if  they  see 
fit  to  do  so,  and  can  make  themselves  as  comfortable  in  North  Carolina 
as  in  Indiana  or  any  other  State.  But  somehow  they  seem  to  have  lost 
their  influence  over  the  class  who  are  leaving.  The  other  day,  a  short 
time  before  starting  from  home,  I  met  an  old  darky,  sixty-three  or  sixty- 
four  years  old,  who  was  preparing  to  emigrate.  He  had  been  farmiug 
on  the  lands  of  the  Wootens,  near  La  Grange.  I  asked  him,  “  What 
are  you  going  to  Indiana  for,  as  old  as  you  are?”  He  answered,  “I 
want  to  better  myself.”  I  replied,  “  Have  you  not  been  doing  well 
enough  ?”  He  said,  “  I  think  I  can  do  better  in  Indiana.”  I  said,  “  How 
long  have  you  been  living  on  Wooten’s  land  ?”  He  said,  “About  seven 
years.”  I  said,  “How  much  land  did  you  have  there?”  He  said  he 
did  not  know,  but  I  knew,  he  had  about  sixteen  acres.  I  said,  “Wasn’t 
it  good  land?”  He  said,  “lres.”  “And  with  a  good  house  on  it?” 
“Yes.”  “  What  rent  did  you  pay  ?”  I  asked.  He  said,  “  I  didn’t  pay 
any  rent.”  “YMu  have  lived  there  seven  years,  and  never  paid  any 


142 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


rent?”  u  Yes.”  u And  had  your  fire- wood  free?”  a  Yes.”  “And  now 
you  want  to  go  to  Indiana  to  do  better,”  I  said.  About  this  time  Mr. 
Wooten  came  along;  he  had  previously  told  me  the  terms  upon  which 
the  old  man  was  living  on  his  place,  and  I  said  to  him,  u  You  ought  to 
have  given  the  old  man  a  mule  and  a  wagon,  and  hired  somebody  to 
chop  his  wood  lor  him,  and  possibly  he  might  have  staid.” 

The  other  day — I  think  last  week,  Wednesday — a  crowd  of  people 
left  Goldsborough  for  the  North,  and  at  thecars  I  met  the  old  man.  I  said 
to  him,  u  You  are  making  a  sad  mistake ;  I  think  you  will  regret  this 
day’s  work  as  long  as  you  live,  for  you  are  doing  better  here  than  you 
possibly  can  do  in  Indiana.”  His  wife  spoke  up  then  and  said,  u  That  is 
exactly  what  I  think  about  it.”  Then  the  old  man  said,  “  What  do  they 
want  us  to  come  for  then  ?  They  wrote  for  us  to  come  on.  If  we  can¬ 
not  do  better  there  than  here,  why  do  they  tell  us  so?” 

Q.  It  is  stated  in  a  circular  issued  by  the  Emigrant  Aid  Society  of 
this  city  that  the  colored  people  are  not  allowed  to  raise  vegetables  or 
anything  else  upon  which  they  can  subsist  during  the  season,  but  are 
forced  to  procure  their  necessary  supplies  from  their  landlords  at  fancy 
prices.  Do  37ou  know  whether  such  is  the  case  or  not  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina? — A.  L  know  that  nothing  of  the  sort  is  true  in  North  Carolina.  I 
have  no  garden,  as  I  live  in  the  center  of  the  city,  where  ground  is  val¬ 
uable,  and  consequently  almost  entirely  occupied  by  buildings.  So  I  am 
of  necessity  compelled  to  buy  vegetables,  and  I  buy  my  vegetables  from 
colored  gardeners,  who  not  only  raise  all  they  need  for  their  own  con¬ 
sumption.  but  all  they  wish  for  sale. 

Q.  Is  there  any  prohibition  at  all  on  colored  people  keeping  vegetable 
gardens  ? — A.  None  at  all.  Mr.  Otey  has  spoken  of  the  landlord  and 
tenant  svstem  of  North  Carolina.  The  law  in  relation  to  that  matter 
was  first  passed  by  a  Republican  legislature.  It  is  similar  to  the  labor¬ 
er’s  or  mechanic’s  lien.  The  laborer  or  mechanic  is  protected  by  his 
lien.  If  I  employ  a  mechanic,  whether  white  or  colored,  to  build  me  a 
house,  he  can  take  a  lien  on  the  property.  In  a  similar  way  the  land¬ 
lord  is  protected  by  this  landlord  and  tenant  act.  It  does  not  affect 
oppressively  the  honest  man,  either  white  or  black.  It  protects  one  race 
as  much  as'  the  other.  It  interferes  only  with  such  as  wish  to  cheat  their 
landlords. 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  You  say  you  are  The  editor  of  a  Democratic  paper  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  engaged  in  that  occupation  ? — A.  Thir¬ 
teen  years. 

Q.  Are  you  pretty  well  acquainted  with  the  colored  people  of  your 
district  ? — A.  Very  well. 

Q.  What  is  the  number  of  the  Congressional  district  in  which  you 
live? — A.  The  second. 

Q.  Are  the  colored  men  in  that  district  all  Republicans? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  except  some  few;  in  my  own  county  there  are,  perhaps,  not  to 
exceed  fifty  colored  men  who  vote  the  Democratic  ticket. 

Q.  What  is  the  Republican  majority  ? — A.  I  think  seven  or  eight 
hundred,  white  and  black. 

Q.  How  long  since  it  has  been  represented  in  Congress  by  a  Repub¬ 
lican  ? — A.  It  has  always  been  represented  by  a  Republican  until  the 
present  Congress. 

Q.  You  mean  commencing  with  the  4th  of  last  March  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
since  the  State  was  redistricted,  and  up  to  the  4th  of  last  March,  the 
district  has  always  been  represented  by  a  Republican. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


143 


Q.  Wbo  is  the  Representative  in  the  Forty-sixth  Congress  ? — A.  Mr. 
Kitchen. 

Q.  Was  he  not  in  the  last  Congress — the  Forty-fifth  ? — A.  No,  sir' 
Governor  Brogdeu  represented  that  district  in  the  Forty- fifth  Congress. 

Q.  You  say  the  colored  people  have  not  much  confidence  in  Demo¬ 
crats  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  said  not  politically.  Otherwise  they  come  to 
them  freely  for  advice,  or  favors,  or  assistance. 

Q.  In  matters  of  business  they  look  to  them  for  advice  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
in  everything  except  politics. 

Q.  Are  they  ready  to  take  your  advice  in  matters  not  political  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  why  do  you  ad  vance  the  theory  that  if  the  Democrats  had  ad¬ 
vised  them  to  go  they  would  have  staid  ? — A.  I  say  now  that  they  will 
take  our  advice  in  everything  except  political  matters. 

Q.  But  this  is  not  political;  it  is  industrial. — A.  I  think  it  has  some¬ 
thing  of  a  political  gloss  to  it. 

Q.  This,  certainly,  is  a  movement  looking  to  their  employment;  and 
yet  you  have  told  us  that  if  the  Democrats  had  advised  them  to  go  they 
would  have  been  more  likely  to  stay. — A.  I  have  said  that  they  have 
not  much  faith  in  Democrats,  in  political  matters. 

Q.  Is  there  any  politics  in  that? — A.  They  look  upon  it  in  that  light ; 
they  were  told  that  they  were  wanted  in  Indiana  to  vote  the  Republi¬ 
can  ticket. 

Q.  Who  tells  them  that? — A.  Some  of  their  “strikers.”  The  evi¬ 
dence  we  have  is  that  the  movement  was  first  instigated  by  Republi¬ 
cans — whether  leading  Republicans  or  not  I  am  not  prepared  to  say. 

Q.  What  is  your  information  on  that  subject? — A.  The  first  informa¬ 
tion  I  had  was  a  paper  that  was  placed  in  my  hands,  called  the  Green- 
castle  Banner,  in  which  the  editor  proposed  to  hud  homes  for  fifteen 
huudred  colored  immigrants  in  this, State. 

Q.  Did  it  make  any  political  suggestion  in  connection  with  that  prop¬ 
osition  ? — A.  Ido  not  know  that  he  did. 

Q.  That  proposition  was  purely  industrial  ? — A.  It  appeared  so. 

Q.  No  other  reason  was  stated  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Only  that  if  they  would  come  they  would  be  furnished  with  homes  ? 
— A.  That  was  the  proposition. 

Q.  Was  there  any  political  suggestion  there  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  else  did  you  obtain  any  information  on  this  subject  ? — A. 
The  correspondence  these  parties  who  are  working  up  the  exodus  move¬ 
ment  had  with  regard  to  it  was  with  men  who,  I  am  informed,  are  Re¬ 
publicans. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  their  offering  the  colored  people  any  political  in¬ 
ducements  or  giving  them  any  political  reasons  why  they  should  come 
to  Indiana? — A,  No,  sir.  I  saw  that  one  colored  man,  named  C.  A. 
Scott,  was  very  cautious  in  his  report ;  he  said,  “  You  can  get  a  few  dol¬ 
lars  more  wages  in  Indiana,  but  you  will  have  to  work  harder;  no  idle 
time  is  allowed;  you  will  not  be  indulged  as  you  are  in  North  Carolina.” 
He  evidently  had  not  the  courage  to  advise  them  to  go.  He  said,  “  If 
you  do  go,  you  had  better  not  go  tilf  spring.” 

Q.  His  report  was,  in  substance,  if  you  are  industrious,  and  will  go  to 
Indiana,  you  can  do  well ;  but  the  lazy  had  better  stay  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina ;  is  there  any  political  motive  in  that? — A.  Apparently  not.  But 
when  I  asked  him  whom  did  he  meet  in  Indianapolis,  he  mentioned  sev¬ 
eral  persons :  Dr.  Abbot,  a  colored  man,  Mr.  Thompson,  a  colored  man, 
and  a  white  man  who  was  one  of  the  citv  officers.  I  asked  him  what 
their  politics  were,  and  he  said  they  were  Republicans.  I  asked  him 


144 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


how  lie  came  to  seek  these  parties.  He  said  he  had  letters  of  introduc¬ 
tion  to  them,  indorsed  by  representative  colored  men  from  North  Car¬ 
olina. 

Q.  Then,  it  is  only  because  he  had  letters  of  introduction  to  and  had 
conversation  with  Republicans  that  you  suppose  this  movement  to  have 
a  political  purpose  A.  I  said  that  I  had  no  knowledge  of  my  own  ; 
that  I  spoke  only  from  common  reports. 

Q.  Did  he  state  that  these  Republicans  whom  he  met  in  Indianapolis 
gave  any  political  reason  for  inviting  colored  people  to  come  into  the 
{State  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  that  he  did. 

Q.  They  better  not  come  until  spring,  he  said  ? — A.  I  think  that  was 
one  thing  he  said. 

(At  this  point  some  discussion  arose  as  to  the  laws  of  Indiana  in  re¬ 
gard  to  voting,  which  the  chairman  settled  by  stating  that  there  was  a 
provision  in  the  constitution  of  Indiana  whereby  a  residence  of  six 
months  in  the  State  makes  a  man  a  voter.) 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  Would  you  not  have  supposed  that,  if  they  wanted  these  men 
there  for  political  purposes,  he  would  not  have  asked  them  to  postpone 
going  there  till  spring? — A.  I  have  simply  told  you  what  was  said  to 
me,  or  what  I  have  heard  from  common  report;  you  can  draw  your 
own  inferences. 

Q.  Then  all  the  reason  you  have  for  supposing  this  movement  to 
have  a  political  purpose  is  because  this  man,  when  he  went  to  Indian¬ 
apolis,  took  with  him  letters  addressed  to  Republicans  and  while  there 
conversed  with  Republicans? — A.  No,  sir;  that  is  not  all  the  reason  I 
have.  I  had  observed  that  Scott  was  very  unwilling  to  communicate 
freely  to  me  on  the  subject,  suspecting  that  I  intended  to  use  any¬ 
thing  that  I  might  learn  from  him  for  publication.  He  is  a  mechanic, 
a  carpenter,  a  good  workman,  and  finds  no  trouble  in  getting  employ¬ 
ment  by  the  leading  citizens.  He  is  looked  upon  as  a  man  of  charac¬ 
ter.  Therefore  he  was  very  cautious  what  he  said  to  me.  So  I  had  a 
gentleman,  a  friend  of  mine,  who  is  a  practicing  physician,  Dr.  Cobb, 
call  upon  him.  The  doctor  said  to  him,  “  I  have  read  your  interview  in 
the  Messenger,  and  am  highly  pleased  with  it;”  and  they  conversed  for 
some  time  in  regard  to  it.  Finally  Dr.  Cobb  said,  uDo  you  think  that 
it  is  really  the  condition  of  the  colored  people  in  Indiana  that  they  can 
earn  more  wages  and  will  be  better  off  in  all  respects  than  they  are 
here?”  Then  Scott  said,  “I  will  tell  you,  doctor;  I  do  not  tell  editors 
everything  I  know;  but  I  will  tell  you  that  the  real  fact  of  the  matter  is 
this:  the  colored  people  will  not  stay  in  Indiana  more  than  a  year;  the 
object  is  to  get  them  to  Indiana;  and  there  they  are  now  forming  a  land 
and  emigration  association,  and  they  intend  to  carry  the  colored  people 
to  a  large  tract  of  laud  in  Kansas,  and  in  a  year  from  now  they  will  be 
taken  from  Indiana  and  carried  to  Kansas.” 

Q.  That  is  the  statement  which  the  doctor  gave  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  you  account  for  these  people  going  there? — A.  The  only 
way  I  can  account  for  it  is  that  these  ageuts,  Evaus  and  others,  were 
paid  to  work  up  the  fever. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  they  were  paid? — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  no  idea. 
I  have  seen  the  evidence  of  Mr.  Dukeliart,  where  he  says  he  pays 
Evans  a  dollar  a  head,  and  Evans  has  not  denied  it. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  of  any  other  reason  ? — A.  I  stated  that  since 
that  I  had  a  letter  placed  in  my  hand  from  Nathan  Wade,  in  which  he 
asksdor  money  to  come  home;  and  I  read  that  letter  to  Taylor  Evans, 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  145 

\ 

and  I  said,  u  If  yon  have  any  conscience  at  all  you  would  quit  this  busi¬ 
ness,  sending  th  se  people  there  to  starve;”  and  he  said,  “I  am  just 
employed  by  the  Emigration  Aid  Society;”  and  he  said  to  me,  u  If  you 
were  employed  to  do  a  certain  work,  wouldn’t  you  do  jour  duty  ?” 

Q.  He  said  he  was  employed  by  the  Emigration  Aid  Society  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  and  he  says,  u  If  you  were  employed  to  do  a  thing,  wouldn’t 
you  do  your  duty  ?”  I  asked  him  if  he  knew  of  their  condition  there. 
He  said  he  didn’t  know  anything  of  their  condition  there.  I  said, 
“Why  don’t  you  go  there  and  see  to  it?”  He  said  he  had  only  money 
enough  to  go  to  Washington  and  turn  back. 

Q.  I  see  in  this  newspaper  where  Ex-Judge  W.  J.  Clarke  has  started 
a  paper  called  The  Signal,  and  where  he  states  that  a  negro  accused  of 
a  crime  is  convicted  on  half  the  evidence  that  it  takes  to  convict  a  white 
man. — A.  My  answer  is  that  there  is  no  truth  in  the  chirge;  that  it  is 
false.  My  answer  is  here  in  this  copy  of  my  paper. 

INFAMOUS  DEFAMATIONS. 

Our  attention  was  recently  directed  to  a  paragraph  taken  from  an  article  in  ex-Judge 
W.  J.  Clarke’s  paper,  the  Signal,  in  which  the  ex-judge  charges  that  in  many  of  our 
eastern  counties  “  the  colored  man  is  excluded  from  the  jury-box  because  of  his  color,” 
and,  further,  that  “a  negro  accused  of  crime  is  convicted  on  half  the  evidence  which 
is  necessary  to  convict  a  white  man.”  This  charge,  coming  whence  it  may,  is  simply 
infamous,  and  the  only  excuse  we  can  find  for  the  false  declaration  is  that  the  author 
thereof  may  have  reached  the  petulance  of  age  that  is  the  early  blossom  of  senility, 
and  that  his  faculties  are  so  abated  that  he  may  plead  the  infirmities  of  years  for  hav¬ 
ing  given  utterance  to  so  vile  a  slander  against  our  people. 

There  is  no  truth  in  the  charge,  so  far  as  the  inferior  courts  of  the  counties  of  Wayne 
and  Lenoir  are  concerned,  which  his  ex -judgeship  delights  in  pointing  out  so  conspic¬ 
uously  in  connection  with  what  we  have  quoted  from  his  article,  and  the  reckless  im¬ 
putation,  in  manner  and  in  matter,  is  simply  a  fabrication,  a  piece  of  arrogance,  or,  in 
charity,  let  us  hope,  a  thoughtless  license  of  speech. 

Our  Kinston  contemporary  has  already  spoken  its  protest  as  far  as  Lenoir  County  is 
concerned,  and  the  Messenger  does  so  in  behalf  of  Wayne  County.  Our  inferior  court 
is  presided  over  by  three  most  honorable  gentlemen,  and  its  worthy  solicitor  is  as  gen¬ 
erous  as  he  is  unbiased  iu  the  discharge  of  his  unpleasant  duties,  alike  to  white 
and  black.  All  who  know  the  presiding  justice,  old  Maj.  John  C.  Slocumb,  know  him 
to  be  a  high-toned,  upright,  Christian  gentleman,  as  such  resjrected  by  both  white  and 
black,  and  what  we  here  say  of  him  we  can  also  apply  in  the  strictest  sense  to  his  as¬ 
sociates  upon  the  bench,  Messrs.  L.  G.  Pearsall  and  F.  I.  Becton.  Mr.  I.  F.  Dortch,  the 
able  solicitor,  has  the  confidence  of  our  citizens,  and  discharges  his  duties  with  an  eye 
to  mercy  rather  than  bias  towards  colored  offenders,  and  we  could  cite  many  instances 
in  evidence  of  this  fact.  Again,  the  charge  that  colored  men  are  being  excluded  from 
juries  is  not  true,  especially  when  applied  to  Wayne  County  inferior  court.  We  are 
officially  assured  that  there  has  not  been  a  jury  empaneled  for  several  terms  but  two 
or  more  colored  men  were  on  it,  except  when  set  aside  by  the  defendant  in  the  case. 
The  State  has  hardly  ever  rejected  one. 

No,  there  is  no  oppression  of  the  colored  people  in  our  courts  of  justice,  and,  lastly, 
our  readers  will  agree  w  ith  us  that  such  imputations  come  with  peculiar  bad  grace 
from  the  pen  of  ex-Judge  Clarke,  his  judicial  record  considered,  no  matter  whether  it 
be  intended  as  a  “  puff'  for  show  ”  or  a  “  field-bat  ”  for  political  ends. 

Q.  It  is  a  fact,  however,  that  it  is  claimed  by  papers  in  your  own  State 
that  such  things  exist? — A.  No,  sir;  it  is  not. 

Q.  Is  not  that  one  of  your  North  Carolina  papers? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Doesn’t  the  editor  claim  it  so? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  is  a  Republican, 
and  edits  a  Republican  paper. 

Q.  Then  you  think  a  Republican  cannot  tell  the  truth  ? — A.  Yes,  sir, 
he  can ;  but  this  is  not  true.  I  was  speaking  awhile  ago  of  the  court 
in  one  county,  and  I  wish  to  say  that  I  am  not  at  all  in  favor  of  the  in¬ 
ferior  courts,  and  I  advocated  that  criminal  courts  should  be  established 
in  their  place.  Yet  we  have  most  excellent  gentlemen,  three  highly- 
esteemed  gentlemen,  on  the  bench,  one  who  is  an  old  Christian  gentle- 

10  EX 


146 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


man,  a  Methodist  of  lifetime  standing,  who  are  on  our  bench,  and  they 
are  generally  liked  by  both  white  and  black. 

Q.  Isn’t  there  difference  of  opinion  in  North  Carolina  as  to  whether 
the  negroes  have  all  their  rights  in  the  courts? — A.  There  are  some 
demagogues  who  want  office  who  make  that  charge,  but  intelligent  Re¬ 
publicans  do  not  make  that  charge,  and  the  ignorant  portion  of  the 
colored  people  are  ready  to  believe  that  they  have  some  grievances 
when  it  is  continually  told  to  them  by  these  men.  They  believe  they 
are  wronged  in  the  courts,  but  those  who  know  and  understand  the 
situation  do  not  think  so.  For  those  who  do  not  get  an  attorney  one  is 
appointed  for  him,  and  they  generally  take  an  appeal  from  the  decision 
if  he  is  not  fairly  treated. 

Q.  Well,  then,  Mr.  Bonitz,  isn’t  there  a  difference  between  the  Repub¬ 
lican  demagogues  and  the  Democratic  patriots  as  to  this  fact  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  but  there  are  demagogues  in  both  parties. 

Q.  Well,  some  of  these  Republicans  do  hold  so  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  North  State  is  a  paper  published  in  your  State? — A.  Yes,  sir’ 
I  am  exchanging  with  it. 

Q,  W  hat  does  it  think  about  it  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir.  I  am  not 
very  familiar  with  that  section,  as  it  is  some  distance  from  my  place  to 
Green  sborough. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  against  the  editor  of  that  paper? — A.  I 
think  the  editor  is  Mr.  Keogh. 

Senator  Vance.  No,  it  is  not. 

The  Witness.  I  was  under  the  impression  it  was  Keogh;  that  is  the 
reason  I  stated  what  I  did ;  but  I  look  upon  that  paper  as  being  a  good 
paper. 

Q.  (By  Senator  Windom.)  If  he  says  the  negroes  are  not  fairly  treated 
in  the  matter  of  juries,  do  you  think  that  he  does  that  from  a  false  mo¬ 
tive,  or  that  he  is  simply  mistaken  as  to  his  judgment? — A.  L  think  he 
is  doing  wrong  to  single  out  rare  cases  and  charge  them  as  being  the 
rule.  I  might  cite  the  case  of  Mechin,  and  say  that  was  a  hard  sentence; 
but  the  general  character  of  the  person  is  taken  into  account  in  the 
courts  in  imposing  sentences. 

Q.  I  find  that  this  gentleman  of  whom  you  spoke  so  well,  and  who 
edits  this  paper,  says: 

Iu  the  year  1870  the  Democrats  obtained  control  of  the  legislature  for  the  first  time 
since  the  war.  It  is  well  understood  that  their  victory  was  won  by  the  aid  of  the 
ku-klux,and  was  the  result  of  the  bloody  outrages  committed  by  that  order  during 
the  two  or  three  years  preceding  that  election.  This  order  and  kindred  organiza¬ 
tions,  which  had  for  their  common  object  the  suppression  or  control  of  the  votes  of 
the  colored  people,  were  disbanded.  Prosecutions  against  many  members  of  these  or¬ 
ders  had  already  been  instituted  in  the  courts  of  the  United  States,  and  murderers  of 
colored  people,  and  Republicans  could  no  longer  expect  that  immunity  which  had  been 
so  generously  and  so  invariably  extended  to  them  by  the  State  courts.  It  was  be¬ 
lieved  that  the  work  so  well  begun  could  be  accomplished  just  as  etfectually  and  far 
more  safely  through  the  legislature,  many  of  whom  were  members  of  the  different 
secret  orders  organized  to  prevent  negro  supremacy,  and  many  others  elected  by  their 
influence  and  heartily  sympathizing  with  them.  In  other  words,  the  Democrats,  find¬ 
ing  that  they  could  not  deprive  the  colored  people  of  the  right  to  vote  by  violence 
without  great  danger  to  themselves,  determined  to  accomplish  this  object,  so  dear  to 
their  hearts,  by  Jaw.  From  that  date  the  legislation  of  North  Carolina,  so  far  as  it 
affects  the  colored  people  and  their  interests,  bears  the  unmistakable  impress  of  theku- 
klux,  and  breathes  the  intolerant  spirit  of  that  bloody  order.  The  first  important  step 
which  the  Democrats  took  to  carry  out  the  programme  which  they  had  laid  down 
was  to  deprive  the  people  of  the  right  to  elect  their  own  county  commissioners  and 
magistrates,  and  to  give  the  legislature  the  right  to  appoint  the  latter.  By  this  act 
they  placed  the  power  of  trying  petty  cases  in  the  hands  of  a  lot  of  their  own  ku-klux 
followers,  who  have  not  failed  to  carry  out  the  wishes  of  their  masters.  This  was  felt 
to  be  a  heavy  blow,  but  it  was  light  in  comparison  with  what  was  to  come.  The  col- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


147 


ored  people  might  have  borne,  with  some  equanimity,  the  sight  of  a  ku-klux  govern¬ 
or  and  secretary  of  state  but  when  they  are  compelled  to  have  their  lives  and  their 
liberty  placed  in  the  hands  of  ku-klux  judges,  they  feel  that  the  limit  of  human  for¬ 
bearance  has  been  reached.  One,  at  least,  of  the  judges  of  our  superior  court  was  an 
active  member  of  the  ku-klux,  and  attained  to  rank  and  influence  in  the  order  in  his 
own  county. 

It  is  true  that  he  showed  the  white  feather  when  the  pinch  came,  but  this  very  cow¬ 
ardice  makes  him  the  more  dangerous,  because  he  would  naturally  be  anxious  to  wipe 
out  this  disgrace  by  more  than  common  zeal  in  the  service  of  the  men  whom  in  their 
hour  of  danger  he  was  ready  to  betray  to  save  his  own  skin.  It  is  his  proud  boast 
that  he  once  shot  a  u  nigger ”  in  the  hack  in  self  defence,  and  he  never  has  forgiven 
the  “nigger”  for  it  to  this  day.  There  are  others  of  our  judges  who,  if  not  mem¬ 
bers  of  the  ku-klux,  were  in  full  sympathy  with  them.  Here,  then,  we  have  a  view 
of  the  whole  system — a  ku-klux  legislature  to  make  the  laws,  a  ku-klux  solicitor  to 
prosecute,  a  ku-klux  jury  to  try  the  case,  and  a  ku-klux  judge  to  pass  sentence ;  men 
who  have,  all  of  them,  taken  a  solemn  oath  to  exert  their  power  to  keep  down  the 
colored  people.  When  we  add  to  this  the  notorious  fact  that  these  men  and  their 
friends  believe  that  “niggers”  have  no  right  to  vote,  and  that  the  placing  of  the 
ballot  in  the  hands  of  the  colored  people  was  an  outrage  on  the  entire  South,  and  was 
done  on  purpose  to  humiliate  Southern  men,  we  can  see  that  this  system  is  a  far  more 
formidable  engine  of  oppression  than  any  open  violence,  because  its  work  is  done  under 
the  forms  of  law. 

A.  With  your  permission  I  would  like  to  make  au  explanation.  So 
far  as  his  statement  about  the  taking  of  the  right  of  suffrage  from  the 
people — the  right  of  electing  their  own  officers,  I  will  state  that  previ¬ 
ous  to  the  last  constitution  we  had  the  most  miserable  and  deplorable 
state  of  county  governments.  For  instance,  in  our  own  county  we  had 
a  bad  government;  the  county  bonds  were  almost  worthless,  and  the 
county  finances  were  in  the  hands  of  speculators  and  brokers  in  the 
court-house,  and  the  warrants  were  not  worth  forty  cents  on  the  dollar. 
The  jurors  could  not  get  a  dollar  for  sitting  on  the  juries,  and  not  a 
dollar  of  claim  agaiusr  the  county  could  be  collected.  VVe  had  iguorant 
people  on  the  c  mrrs  and  for  magistrates,  and  came  frequently  near 
having  difficulties  growing  out  of  these  facts.  One  that  I  know  of  was 
a  colored  magistrate  who  could  not  read  and  write.  He  was  in  a  colored 
township,  where  the  population  was  largely  colored,  and  he  was  a  noto¬ 
rious  character.  Yet  the  colored  people  elected  him  to  any  office  that 
he  wanted,  either  to  the  legislature  or  any  other  office  that  he  aspired 
to.  He  abused  his  influence,  and  in  several  cases  took  bribes  to  decide, 
the  cases  before  him — in  two  or  three  cases.  He  would  order  wild 
youug  colored  men  to  take  their  guns  and  go  and  arrest  white  men 
without  a  warrant.  And  all  this  kind  of  thing  caused  the  reorganiza¬ 
tion  of  these  county  governments.  The  leading  republicans  desired  it 
in  many  instances,  and  preferred  the  legislature  to  appoint  the  magis¬ 
trates.  It  was  the  desire  to  get  back  to  the  old  system  before  the  war, 
because  it  was  necessary  to  all  who  owned  property  to  have  it  fairly 
assessed  and  taxed,  and  the  money  applied  to  legitimate  purposes. 

Q.  My  desire  is  to  ask  you  if  there  are  not  differences  of  opinion  be¬ 
tween  some  people  of  the  State  on  that  subject  l — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  there  are. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  I  observe  that  you  stated  there  was  no  discrimination  between  the 
races  in  the  courts. — A.  No,  sir;  there  is  no  discrimination. 

Q.  You  do  understand  that  there  is  a  very  substantial  difference  be¬ 
tween  the  penal  laws  of  North  Carolina  and  most  Northern  States  in 
regard  to  the  punishment  of  offences? — A.  I  do  not  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  in  Indiana  the  stealing  of  seventy-five 
cents  is  punished  in  the  same  way  as  in  North  Carolina! — A.  If  you 
had  such  loose  moral  characters. 

Q.  No,  no;  I  am  simply  asking  if  it  is  so. — A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not. 


148 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Is  it  so  that  the  penal  laws  of  Indiana  and  the  Northern  States 
generally  are  more  favorable  to  petty  offences  than  in  North  Carolina  ? 
—A.  Yes,  sir;  I  believe  so,  and  yet  our  courts  have  as  much  to  do  as 
they  can  in  trying  these  cases. 

Q.  I  am  not  asserting  that  your  laws  are  not  necessary  there,  but  I 
am  speaking  of  the  fact  that  there  is  a  great  difference  between  the 
laws  of  your  State  and  that  of  most  Northern  States. 

Senator  Vooriiees.  I  will  save  you  the  trouble,  Mr.  Blair,  of  ques¬ 
tioning  Mr.  Bonitz  with  regard  to  the  laws  of  Indiana.  We  have 
plenty  of  evidence  here  at  hand  upon  that  subject,  and  I  will  save  you 
the  trouble  of  examining  him  upon  it. 

Senator  Blair.  How  many  instances  have  you  seen  of  men  sent  to 
the  penitentiary  five  years  for  stealing  seventy  five  cents  worth  of  prop¬ 
erty  ?  What  do  you  know  of  anything  of  that  kind  ? 

Senator  Voorliees.  I  will  prove  that  the  same  thing  is  done  in  In¬ 
diana  just  as  soon  as  you  get  through  with  the  witness.  I  will  prove 
that  petit  larceny  is  punished  with  as  severe  penalties  almost  in  the 
State  of  Indiana  as  in  North  Carolina.  There  are  plenty  of  witnesses 
to  prove  it;  two  prosecuting  attorneys  will  prove  it. 

Q.  (By  Senator  Blair.)  What  was  your  understanding  upon  this  sub¬ 
ject  before  you  got  your  understanding  now  from  the  chairman  ? — A.  I 
know  nothing  about  the  laws  of  the  Northern  States,  except  what  in¬ 
formation  I  received  by  reading  reports  in  my  exchanges  of  trials  and 
convictions  there.  Of  course  I  admit  there  is  a  diversity  of  penalties, 
inflicted  upon  the  same  offences  throughout  the  United  States.  I  have 
seen  in  the  New  York  courts  where  a  party  has  stolen  thousands  of 
dollars  and  gotten  off  with  one  year  in  the  penitentiary,  but  in  our 
courts  where  penalties  are  very  severe  they  are  generally  penalties  in¬ 
flicted  on  old  offenders.  If  they  are  first  offences  probably  they  will  be 
let  off  on  the  payment  of  costs.  If  we  had  less  severe  penalties  in  our 
State  I  do  not  see  how  we  could  get  aloug  with  our  courts. 

Q.  I  was  not  asking  you  as  to  that.  I  am  getting  at  the  state  of 
mind  of  the  people  there.  Isn’t  it  the  understanding  that  the  punish¬ 
ments  are  less  severe  in  the  Northern  States  than  in  the  Southern 
States'? — A.  The  colored  people  have  been  made  to  believe  that,  and 
that  is  the  reason  some  of  them  are  going  to  the  North. 

Q.  That  would  be  a  reason  which  would  operate  on  white  as  well  as 
black,  would  it  not? — A.  Yres,  sir;  of  course  it  would. 

Q.  Still  you  say  there  is  no  discrimination  between  the  races? — A. 
No,  sir  ;  there  is  no  discrimination. 

Q.  But  the  belief  is  that  the  laws  are  more  liberal  in  Indiana  than  in 
North  Carolina? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  accounts  for  the  exodus  to  some  extent  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  all. 

The  Witness.  While  I  want  to  protest  that  I  am  not  a  Republican, 
yet  I  also  want  to  protest  that  when  you  speak  of  the  disfranchisement 
of  the  parties  for  larceny  in  my  State  as  being  a  law  that  operates 
harshly  on  the  Republicans  I  want  to  say  that  the  Republican  party  of 
my  State  are  not  all  rogues. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Who  was  the  prosecuting  attorney  in  the  second  district  ? — A.  He 
was  a  colored  man  named  Collins. 

Q.  Who  is  the  prosecuting  officer  now? — A.  Swift  Calloway;  he  is 
the  first  prosecuting  officer  who  is  a  Democrat  that  we  had  in  our  dis¬ 
trict, 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


149 


TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  E.  LAMB. 


John  E.  Lamb  sworn  and  examined. 

Bv  the  Chairman: 

«y 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside  ? — Answer.  Terre  Haute, Yigo  County, 
Indiana. 

Q.  You  were  born  there,  I  believe  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation  ? — A.  Practicing  law. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  practicing  law  ? — A.  About  five  years. 

Q.  State  what  official  positions  you  have  held  in  your  profession? — 
A.  I  was  prosecuting  attorney  in  my  district  for  three  and  a  half  years. 

Q.  What  counties  were  embraced  in  your  district? — A.  Yigo  and 
Sullivan. 

Q.  You  were  three  and  a  half  years  prosecuting  attorney? — A.  Y"es, 
sir;  once  by  appointment  and  once  by  election. 

Q.  That  is  of  the  circuit  court? — A.  Y"es,  sir. 

Q.  State,  Mr.  Lamb,  whether  your  acquaintance  is  very  general  in 
the  county  in  which  you  live,  and  especially  in  Sullivan  County? — A. 
Yres,  sir;  I  know  them  very  well,  perhaps  as  well  as  anybody  in  Sulli¬ 
van  County,  and  especially  do  I  know  the  people  of  my  own  county. 

Q.  State  what  ward  you  live  in,  in  the  city  of  Terre  Haute? — A.  In 
the  third  ward. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  colored  population  of  the  city  reside  in  that 
ward? — A.  Not  quite  one-half. 

Q.  There  are  more  in  that  ward  than  in  any  other  ward  of  the  city  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  twice  as  many. 

Q.  How  many  colored  voters  are  there  in  Yigo  County  ? — A.  Between 
four  and  five  hundred. 

Q.  Making  the  population  about  how  many  in  that  county? — A. 
Making,  I  believe,  five — to  count  but  one  voter,  and  a  great  many  of 
them  are  young  men — I  should  say  two  thousand  colored  people  in  the 
county. 

Q.  Mr.  Lamb,  the  examination  of  the  last  witness  closed  on  questions 
concerning  the  penal  laws  of  Indiana  and  North  Carolina;  state  if  yon 
are  familiar  with  the  penal  laws  of  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  am. 

Q.  State  what  penalty  can  be  inflicted  in  our  courts  for  petit  larceny  ? 
— A.  Well,  sir,  petit  larceny  in  our  State  is  an  offence  defined  by  statute, 
and  consists  of  stealing  any  property  of  any  value  not  exceeding  $15, 
and  is  punishable  by  fine  not  exceeding  $5D0  and  confinement  in  the 
penitentiary  not  more  than  three  years,  or  in  the  common  jail  for  any 
time  less  than  one  year. 

Q.  H<  ) w  about  disfranchisement? — A.  They  cau  be  disfranchised  for 
any  purpose  not  more  than  fourteen  years. 

Q.  For  petit  larceny  they  can  be  imprisoned  for  three  years  and  dis¬ 
franchised  fourteen? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  State  if  you,  as  prosecuting  attorney,  have  seen  any  cases  of  that 
kind  in  your  experience. — A.  I  sent  a  white  man  to  the  penitentiary 
for  two  years  for  stealing  a  bottle  of  whisky  and  au  old  hat. 

Q.  The  value  of  those  articles  was  not  equal  to  seventy  five  cents, 
was  it  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  think  it  was.  But  if  you  will  allow  me  to 
say  it,  I  think  the  man  went  to  the  penitentiary  on  general  principles. 

Q.  lie  was  a  bad  man? — A.  Yres,  sir;  everybody  was  ready  to  send 
him  there  whenever  they  got  a  chance. 

Q.  There  is  uo  trouble,  however,  about  sending  a  man  to  the  peniten¬ 
tiary  for  stealing  seventy  five  cents  if  he  is  convicted  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  AYas  there  any  disfranchisement  ? — A.  I  think  two  years,  the  same 


150  NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 

as  the  term  in  the  penitentiary.  That  was  in  Sullivan  County,  where 
the  Democratic  majority  is  1,300. 

Q.  The  man  was  tried  by  a  Democratic  jury  ? — A.  I  cannot  say  as  to 
the  composition  of  that  jury,  but  I  do  not  believe  you  can  get  a  jury  in 
that  county  without  two-thirds  of  them  being  Democrats.  * 

Q.  Be  was  a  Democrat  himself,  wasn’t  he  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  was  a  Democratic  court  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  yourself  are  a  Democrat? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  sent  him  to  the  penitentiary  for  two  years  and  disfran¬ 
chised  him  for  two? — A.  Yes,  sir.  Mr.  Kelley  has  corrected  me  as  to 
that ;  it  was  for  two  years. 

Q.  So  if  these  North  Carolina  people  think  they  are  going  to  a  land 
where  there  is  a  more  lenient  penal  law  than  they  have  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina,  they  are  mistaken? — A.  Yes,  sir;  unless  the  penalty  can  be  in¬ 
creased  to  five  j ears  down  there,  as  one  of  the  witnesses  stated. 

Q.  Now,  I  want  to  know  what  you  know,  if  anything,  on  the  subject 
of  these  people  coming  into  our  county;  how  many  have  been  brought 
there  ? — A.  Well,  I  should  say,  up  to  the  time  I  left  home,  Monday 
afternoon,  there  had  come  into  Yigo  County  between  one  hundred  and 
filty  and  two  hundred  people,  men,  women,  and  children.  Besides  this 
number,  there  have  been  perhaps  forty  or  fifty  come  to  Terre  Haute, 
and  taken  to  Paike  County  and  Bockville,  twenty  or  twenty-five  miles 
above  there. 

Q.  Who  took  them  up  there  ? — A.  I  cannot  say  who  took  them.  I 
know  who  sent  them.  It  was  Mr.  Walker,  the  mail  agent  at  Terre 
Haute,  at  the  depot. 

Q.  Who  is  Mr.  Walker? — A.  He  is  the  mail  agent  at  the  depot. 

Q.  Is  he  a  prominent  colored  politician  ? — A.  He  is  the  most  promi¬ 
nent  mau  among  them. 

Q.  Where  are  those  people  who  have  been  brought  to  Vigo  County  ? 
— A.  A  number  of  them  are  standing  on  the  streets,  young  men,  and 
there  are  a  number  of  boys  among  them  ;  there  are  men,  women,  and 
children— men  who  are  the  husbands  of  women,  I  suppose — who  are 
quartered  now  in  w  hat  is  known  as  the  new  African  Methodist  Episco¬ 
pal  church,  down  in  the  third  ward. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  are  housed  in  that  church? — A.  Well,  I  think 
on  that  day  there  were  forty  or  fifty. 

Q.  How  were  they  being  fed  ? — A.  By  the  charity  of  the  people  round 
about  there. 

Q.  What  measures  wmre  taken  to  raise  money  for  them  to  buy  them 
something  to  eat? — A.  Ten  days  ago  there  was  a  meeting  of.  the  colored 
people  to  do  something  about  it.  I  do  not  know  the  purposes  of  the 
meeting  further  than  it  all  ended  in  a  row  in  trying  to  raise  a  commit¬ 
tee.  They  failed  to  do  so.  The  better  class  of  colored  people  in  our 
State  are  opposed  to  the  movement.  Nobody  but  Walker  has  taken  any 
prominence  in  it  since  they  came  there  without  food  or  means.  I  think 
there  is  some  sort  of  organization  gotten  up  on  Sunday,  some  sort  of 
relief  society  to  help  them.  Some  of  them  came  there  on  Friday  night 
and  some  Saturday  and  Monday.  I  saw  some  of  them,  with  baskets  on 
their  arms,  looking  for  food;  1  sawr  several  of  them  who  stopped  me  and 
asked  me  lor  money.  Some  of  them  wTere  rather  well  dressed  and  well- 
behaved  looking  people,  but  they  had  no  money  and  nothing  to  eat. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  those  w  ho  have  reached  Terre  Haute  have  re¬ 
ceived  employment  ? — A.  Very  few.  I  know  that  some  of  them  have 
been  employed.  Mr.  Walker  has  interested  in  getting  them  employed  : 
I  do  not  think  that  others  have.  The  wages  for  colored  people  are  so 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


151 


low,  and  there  are  enough  of  our  own  people  to  fill  all  the  positions,  that 
they  cannot  make  more  than  ten  to  twelve  dollars  with  board.  You 
know  of  cases,  and  so  do  I,  where  they  have  been  paid  in  good  families 
that  much,  but  never  more.  They  cannot  get  work,  and  several  of  them 
fold  me  that  they  had  been  told  they  would  have  to  wait  until  spring  to 
get  work  on  the  farms. 

Q.  I  know  your  full  acquaintance  with  nearly  everybody  in  Yigo 
County ;  from  that  acquaintance  with  the  farmers  of  Vigo  County,  will 
you  tell  this  committee  whether  there  is  any  demand  for  these  people 
or  for  any  laborers  in  that  county  at  this  time? — A.  I  am  well  ac¬ 
quainted  with  the  farmers  of  the  county  and  in  our  township,  and  I 
never  heard  of  any  such  demand,  and  I  think  if  there  was  such  a  de¬ 
maud  I  would  know  of  it. 

Q.  What  could  a  laboring  man  get  to  do  starting  out  to  get  a  day’s 
work,  white  or  colored,  at  this  season  of  the  year,  especially  in  Vigo 
County? — A.  I  do  not  see  how  he  could  work ‘at  all,  unless  he  worked 
for  nothing;  of  course  he  might  work  for  his  board;  if  there  was  any 
work  for  him  to  do,  maybe  he  would  get  fifty  cents  a  day  for  a  day’s 
work.  There  are  plenty  of  men,  I  believe,  in  Vigo  County  for  $10  per 
month,  a*nd  glad  to  get  it  in  the  winter  time. 

Q.  Did  you  happen  to  talk  to  trustee  Abbott  before  you  left  home? — 
A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not. 

Q.  What  is  your  information  and  knowledge  of  people  wanting  em¬ 
ployment  there  and  not  being  able  to  get  it? — A.  I  do  not  know  as  I 
can  say,  except  that  men  have  been  coming  to  me  for  the  last  six 
months  asking  for  help  and  for  work,  and  if  they  could  not  get  work 
they  needed  charity. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a  common  and  A  constant  thing? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  State  in  regard  to  our  county,  whether  it  is  an  old,  well-settled 
and  cultivated  county,  or  a  new  county  demanding  labor  to  clear  it  up 
and  put  it  under  cultivation. — A.  It  is  an  old  county,  a  good  agricul¬ 
tural  county,  and  well  populated,  and  I  suppose  iu  the  seventy  or  ninety 
counties  of  our  State  there  is  not  one  as  densely  populated  as  it. 

Q.  It  was  settled  in  1812,  I  believe  ? — A.  Yes,  and  has  about  30,000 
people  in  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  became  of  those  emigrants  who  were  taken  up 
into  Parke  County  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  think  they  got  employment, 
and  for  those  I  think  they  made  arrangements  up  there  in  the  Quaker 
settlement,  up  near  Annapolis. 

Q.  That  is  a  heavy  Republican  county,  is  it  not,  Parke  County  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  say  they  took  fifty  or  sixty  up  there? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but 
they  were  not  all  voters. 

Q.  You  stated  that  there  were  not  more  than  fifty  or  sixty  who  had 
gone  to  Vigo  County  ? — A.  I  have  heard  of  only  a  few  ;  some  may  get  a 
day’s  work,  but  I  do  not  know  as  to  that.  I  know  there  are  six  or  seven 
employed  by  Republican  politicians  there. 

Q.  Who  are  they  ? — A.  There  are  two  or  three  men  and  women  em¬ 
ployed  by  Mr.  Beauchamp,  a  Republican  politician,  who  was  consul  at 
Aix  la-Chapelle  and  Cologne.  He  has  not  been  back  long.  Another 
politician,  Mr.  Boudinot,  I  think  has  one. 

Q.  You  may  give  such  evidence  as  you  have,  that  this  is  a  political 
movement,  so  far  as  the  State  is  concerned,  or  any  other  tacts  that  you 
many  have  concerning  the  exodus. — A.  I  do  not  know  what  reasons 
they  have  lor  immigration  to  other  parts  of  the  State;  but  it  has  im¬ 
pressed  me  as  a  political  movement  for  one  reason— that  when  the 


152 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


people  came  there  they  were  not  met  by  people  regardless  of  politics,  or 
by  the  better  classes  of  people,  even  of  the  colored  people,  but  they 
were  met  by  these  United  States  officials  who  have  been  active  in  get¬ 
ting  them  to  come  there,  and  getting  places  and  taking  care  of  them.  [ 
heard  of  this  man  Walker  sending  a  circular  to  the  South  some  ten 
days  ago. 

Q.  Did  you  see  this  circular? — A.  No,  sir*  I  did  not  read  it.  But  I 
know  that  those  ltepublicans  who  are  going  about  in  Terre  Haute  try¬ 
ing  to  get  employment  for  these  people  are  favoring  the  movement; 
and  I  know  the  further  fact  that  a  gentleman,  a  very  prominent  Repub¬ 
lican  from  Terre  Haute,  told  me  last  Saturday  that  Walker  came  to 
him  and  said  they  should  make  room  for  a  large  number  of  them.  It  is 
a  desideratum  for  them  to  come  there.  They  are  trying  to  get  them  in 
Terre  Haute,  so  located  as  to  carry  my  ward  at  the  spring  elections. 
From  these  facts,  and  others  that  I  knew,  and  because  1  knew  they 
would  not  fare  as  well  there  as  they  would  in  North  Carolina,  after  they 
told  me  that  they  were  getting  from  ten  to  twelve  dollars  a  month  in 
North  Carolina,  and  that  they  were  well  treated,  and  that  none  of  them 
had  any  complaint  against  their  treatment  in  North  Carolina,  I  thought 
they  had  better  stay  there  than  come  to  Indiana.  I  will  state  that  I 
never  heard  of  any  railroad  company  beiug  interested  in  the  movement 
at  all  before  I  read  the  evidence  before  this  committee  the  other  day.  I 
did  not  know  of  any  motive  of  that  kind  for  the  exodus. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  You  say  you  were  a  prosecuting  officer  for  three  and  a  half 
years  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  the  entire  county  ? — A.  For  two,  counties.  We  have  a  dis¬ 
trict,  and  mine  is  the  fourteenth  judicial  district. 

Q.  What  county  do  you  live  in  ? — A.  The  county  I  live  in  is  Vigo, 
and  has  fifty  thousand  people. 

Q.  What  of  the  other  county  ? — A.  I  should  say  Sullivan  County  has 
twenty  thousand  people.  I  should  think  there  are  seventy  thousand 
in  the  district. 

Q.  Your  district  comprises  some  large  places.  What  is  the  popula¬ 
tion  of  Terre  Haute? — A.  We  polled  five  thousand  votes  in  Terre 
Haute,  and  I  suppose  the  population,  according  to  the  ratio  allowed  for 
votes,  would  be  about  twenty-live  thousand  people. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  large  places  in  your  district? — A.  No,  sir; 
Sullivan  has  about  two  thousand  to  twenty-five  hundred  voters. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  state  the  population  at  two  thousand,  for  the 
negroes,  in  Vigo  County  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  as  many  there  as  in  other  counties  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  there 
is  not  a  hundred  in  Sullivan  County. 

Q.  Was  your  practice  very  extensive  while  you  were  prosecuting  at¬ 
torney  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  we  have  a  criminal  court  in  our  county,  in  Vigo 
County,  and  causes  are  tried  in  the  criminal  court  by  the  criminal 
prosecuting  attorney  ;  so  the  bulk  of  my  practice,  as  public  prosecuting 
attorney,  was  in  Sullivan  County. 

Q.  You  had  a  good  knowledge,  however,  of  the  criminal  practice  in 
the  district  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  suppose  I  had,  for  I  was  prosecuting  in 
Sullivan  County,  but  that  did  not  prevent  me  from  defending  a  man 
before  the  criminal  court  at  home. 

Q.  You  were  appointed  prosecuting  attorney  when  ?— A.  When  I  was 
twenty-one  years  of  age.  I  am  twenty  seven  now;  that  was  six  years 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  153 

Q,  Your  observation  of  affairs  in  that  part  of  the  State  runs  from 
that  time  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  stated  the  law  for  the  punishment  of  petit  larceny,  such 
as  stealing  an  amount  under  fifteen  dollars? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  said  that  it  was  punished  by  imprisonment  for  three 
years-?— A.  Three  years;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  disfranchisement  for  two  years  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  was  mistaken 
about  that.  Mr.  Kelly  has  refreshed  my  mind.  It  is  disfranchisement 
for  the  same  time  as  the  term  of  imprisonment. 

Q.  And  a  fine  not  exceeding  three  hundred  dollars  ? — A.  Five  hun¬ 
dred,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  extreme  of  the  penalty?— A.  That  is  the  extreme 
of  the  penalty. 

Q  Have  you  ever  known,  in  the  whole  of  your  criminal  practice  or 
observation,  a  man  to  be  put  into  the  State’s  prison  for  stealing  a  chicken 
in  Jndiaua? — A.  Yes,  I  think  1  do  ;  1  am  sorry  to  say  it,  but  1  think  I 
do,  Senator. 

Q.  You  think  you  recollect  a  single  instance,  and  you  think  that  in¬ 
stance  was  a  dishonor  to  the  State? — A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  another 
case  which  exercised  the  people  of  Indiana,  and  that  was  where  a  col¬ 
ored  man  was  convicted  of  marrying  a  white  woman. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  case  of  a  man’s  being  put  into  the  penitentiary 
for  stealing  property  of  a  less  value  than  a  dollar?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  mean  with  the  exception  of  that  man  who  stole  a  bottle  of 
whisky  and  an  old  hat? — A.  Yes,  sir,  1  do.  1  know  a  man  who  was 
sent  to  the  penitentiary  for  stealing  an  old  coat. 

Q.  What  was  the  proof  as  to  the  value  of  it  ? — A.  I  saw  the  coat,  and 
some  said  it  was  worth  sixty  cents  and  some  said  it  was  worth  a  dollar. 

Q.  Was  it  a  jury  case  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  there  any  particular  circumstances  about  it  to  aggravatethe 
offense?— A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not;  1  think  he  was  tried  by  a  jury,  and 
Mr.  Kelly  prosecuted  the  case. 

Q.  What  was  the  length  of  the  sentence  ? — A.  One  year. 

Q.  Was  there  no  fine? — A.  Yes,  sir;  1  think  there  was  a  fine,  and 
disfranchisement  too;  but  that,  Senator,  is  only  a  formal  thing;  1  will 
say  that,  as  to  the  laws  of  Indiana,  if  a  fellow  gets  out  of  the  peniten¬ 
tiary  he  goes  elsewhere  and  votes  all  the  same. 

Q.  You  mean  that  he  was  imprisoned  in  a  penitentiary  or  a  jail?— A. 
YYs,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  one  case  which  you  know  of ;  did  he  serve  his  term  out? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  any  others  that  you  can  give  us  ? — A.  I  say,  Senator,  it 
is  not  a  common  occurrence  with  us  to  have  a  man  convicted  in  that 
way. 

Q.  But  such  cases  occur,  and  you  think  they  are  disgraceful  to  the 
State? — A.  Really,  I  do  not  like  them  ;  but  the  fact  is  where  they  are 
sent  to  the  penitentiary  for  offenses  of  that  kind,  it  is  generally  because 
the  party  is  a  bad  man  and  the  people  want  to  get  rid  of  him. 

Q.  That  is  because  he  is  a  hard,  common  character? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  You  spoke  of  labor  being  hard  to  find;  do  you  know  of  any 
threats  by  Democrats  against  people  employing  these  immigrants  from 
North  Carolina? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  know  of  anything  of  the  kind  ; 
so  far  as  my  county  is  concerned  nothing  has  been  said  to  them;  in  my 
county  the  Democrats  are  friendly  to  them;  they  vote  the  Democratic 
ticket  in  my  ward,  I  know. 


154 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  You  are  in  politics  yourself? — A.  Yes,  sir,  somewhat;  but  iu 
speaking  of  that  fact  I  was  not  speaking  of  the  people  who  came  there  ; 
1  am  speaking  of  those  in  Terre  Haute,  who  have  lived  there  nearly  all  of 
their  lives  ;  I  object  as  much  as  anybody  to  people  being  imported  there 
to  take  charge  of  my  State. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  after  a  while  they  will  fall  in  with  the 
others  and  be  as  prosperous  as  they  are? — A.  I  think  the  only  influ¬ 
ence  that  they  would  fall  in  with  now,  in  their  condition,  is  money,  and 
that  the  Republicans  have  most  of  that. 

Q.  What  is  the  Republican  majority  in  your  county? — A.  Our  county 
is  in  rather  a  different  position  from  what  it  has  been ;  last  fall  the  Re¬ 
publicans  were  demoralized  and  they  were  beaten  five  hundred  by  the 
Greenbackers,  and  we  beat  the  Greenbackers  six  hundred  and  the  Re¬ 
publicans  eleven  hundred. 

Q.  Where  did  these  people  who  came  there  come  from  ?— A.  They 
came  from  North  Carolina,  from  about  Goldsborough,  so  far  as  I  could 
learn  from  those  of  whom  I  asked  the  question. 

Q.  Did^ou  know  of  any  coming  there  from  other  places? — A.  The 
first  of  them  came  from  another  place,  but  I  cannot  recollect  the  name. 

Q.  As  a  politician,  do  you  not  think  that  if  the  Republicans  of  the 
State  were  trying  to  colonize  it  with  negroes  they  would  take  them 
from  some  neaier  place  than  North  Carolina? — A.  I  think  it  is  the  big¬ 
gest  fool  thing  1  ever  knew  any  party  to  do. 

Q.  Do  you  think,  as  a  matter  of  expense,  that  they  would  take  them 
from  Kentucky,  for  instance,  before  they  would  from  North  Carolina? — 
A.  I  think  probably  they  would.  It  would  be  reasonable  for  them  to 
do  it. 

Q.  Do  you  think  there  is  any  political  movement  in  this  exodus  ? — A. 
I  cannot  see  any  other  reason  for  it,  except  it  be  a  political  one. 

Q.  You  think  the  Republican  party  would  go  to  North  Carolina,  at  a 
cost  of  $20,  to  get  a  voter,  and  have  him  briug  his  wife,  children,  and 
all  with  him,  when  they  could  go  to  Kentucky  and  get  voters  at  a  much 
less  price? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  have  heard  Republicans  state  that  it  was  a 
very  foolish  thing,  but  that  they  were  going  to  bring  enough  in  there, 
into  Indiana,  to  carry  the  State. 

Q.  Who  did  you  hear  make  that  statement  ? — A.  I  think  the  Repub¬ 
licans  around  Terre  Haute  have  made  it,  and  Mr.  Langsdale,  the  editor 
of  the  Greencastle  Banner.  I  think  there  are  parties  here  who  have 
heard  him  say  that. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  they  would  bring  these  men  from  North  Caro¬ 
lina  merely  for  the  purpose  of  making  voters  out  of  them  when  they 
could  be  gotten  in  Kentucky  or  Tennessee  at  a  much  less  cost? — A.  I 
think  so.  The  men  who  are  doing  this  sort  of  thing  might  do  very  foolish 
things  in  connection  with  it. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  much  easier  to  get  men  from  across  the  river  than  it  is  to 
come  around  by  Washington  and  go  to  Niorth  Carolina  for  them  ? — A. 
Of  course  it  is  easy  enough  to  get  them  across  the  river  and  vote  them 
and  let  them  go  back,  arid  I  think  they  do  it  sometimes. 

Q.  Y"ou  have  tried  it  on  yourself,  haven’t  you,  with  Democratic  white 
voters  ? — A.  I  have  seen  something  of  the  kind  stated  in  Republican 
newspapers. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  that  that  has  been  done  ? — A.  I  have  not  done 
anything  of  that  kind.  I  have  had  it  charged,  but  I  never  knew  of  any 
such  thing  being  done. 

Q.  You  say  from  one  hundred  and  fifty  to  two  hundred  have  come 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  155 

into  Vigo  County;  how  many  of  them  were  voters? — A.  I  should  say, 
perhaps,  forty  or  fifty. 

Q.  You  think,  in  all,  there  are  some  forty  or  fifty  voters  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  a  great  many  of  them  don’t  seem  to  be  voters.  But  the  trouble  . 
with  colored  men  is,  that  you  can’t  tell  anything  about  it.  A  great 
many  of  them  vote  before  they  are  twenty-one  years  of  age.  My  judg¬ 
ment  is  that  there  are  forty  or  fifty  who  are  over  twenty-one  years  of  age. 

Q.  Well,  do  that  forty  or  fifty  create  any  consternation  in  the  Demo¬ 
cratic  party  out  there? — A.  No,  sir;  but  they  create  a  great  deal  of  dis¬ 
cussion,  because  the  people  out  there  dou’t  agree  that  people  should  be 
brought  there  in  that  condition. 

Q.  How  do  yon  know  they  are  brought  there  ? — A.  I  know  they  were 
brought  there. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  they  came  there  of  their  own  accord  ? — A.  Well, 
sir,  we  can’t  think  so  when  they  tell  us  that  their  fare  was  paid. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  some  government  officer  of  Terre  Haute  who  was 
assisting  these  people,  a  Mr.  Walker;  is  he  white  or  colored? — A.  He 
is  a  colored  man. 

Q.  He  was  just  looking  after  them  and  taking  care  of  them,  wasn’t 
he? — A.  Ido  not  think  he  is  doing  much  for  them.  When  I  left,  the 
most  that  was  being  done  for  them  was  by  some  colored  barbers,  men* 
who  belong  to  our  own  people. 

Q.  Who  is  this  man  Walker? — A.  He  carries  the  mail  from  the  depot: 
to  the  post-office  and  back.  He  is  appointed  under  the  government,, 
and  receives  forty  or  fifty  dollars  a  month. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  talk  with  him  about  the  exodus ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  his  name? — A.  James  H.  Walker. 

Q.  What  other  Republican  have  you  heard  talk  about  this  as  a  Re¬ 
publican  political  movement  ? — A.  I  have  given  you  the  names  of  all 
that  I  have  heard. 

Q.  Just  give  them  to  us  again. — A.  As  I  stated,  you  asked  me  for 
my  reasons  for  believing  this  was  a  political  movement.  I  stated,  from 
the  first  place,  considering  that  there  was  no  need  of  these  people  there, 
and  they  could  do  no  better  there  than  in  North  Carolina,  and  from 
the  fact  that  nobody  took  any  interest  in  them,  in  our  State  at  least,  and 
in  my  county,  except  the  Republicans  and  office-holders,  I  thought  it 
was  a  Republican  movement.  These  people  were  brought  there,  and 
had  no  money  to  live  on  when  they  got  there  ;  and  I  thought  these  facts 
justified  the  belief  that  they  were  induced  to  come  there  on  account  of 
their  votes. 

Q.  Who  are  these  Republicans  and  office-holders  who  have  taken  an- 
interest  in  them  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  these  things  are  done  in  such  a  way 
and  so  much  more  secretly  than  auytbing  else,  that  you  cannot  exactly 
state  who  is  doing  it.  What  I  have  said,  I  suspect  more  than  anything 
else.  I  saw  Walker  and  Beechum  consulting  about  it,  and  I  find  that 
men  and  women  are  down  at  Be;  chum’s  working;  and  putting  this  and 
that  together,  it  looks  very  much  to  me  like  a  scheme. 

Q.  It  is  a  sort  of  matter  of  imagination  or  suspicion,  then  ? — A.  Well, 
yes,  sir.  I  have  given  you  all  the  facts  that  1  have. 

Q.  And  all  your  information  is  that  the  Republicans  and  officials 
there  are  the  only  people  who  have  been  taking  an  interest  in  it? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  they  done  anything  more  than  to  find  places  for  them  when 
they  got  there? — A.  Yres,  sir;  they  have  done  that  for  some  of  them  ; 
but  so  far  as  supplying  them  now  is  concerned,  there  was  none  of  that- 
being  done  when  I  left  home. 


156 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Don’t  you  know  that  it  is  generally  considered  that  the  Republi¬ 
cans  are  more  friendly  to  the  negroes  than  the  Democrats,  and  that 
they  naturally  go  to  them  for  help  ! — A.  I  do  not  think  it  is  true  in 
•  our  State. 

Q.  Then  the  Democrats  treat  them  the  same  as  the  Republicans? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  they  are  just  as  well  treated  by  the  Democrats  as 
by  the  Republicans. 

Q.  Where  do  the  complaints' against  the  exodus  come  from  mostly  ? 
— A.  From  the  Democrats;  but  I  say  I  have  yet  to  see  a  man — a 
white  man — either  Democrat  or  a  Republican — who  favors  this  move¬ 
ment. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  mostly  favored  among  the  colored  people ? — A.  No,  sir; 
the  colored  people  do  not  like  this  man  Walker.  They  are  against  him, 
and  don’t  follow  him,  because  they  did  not  approve  of  his  being  ap¬ 
pointed  there. 

Q.  They  had  a  meeting  there,  did  they  not.  to  take  measures  for  get¬ 
ting  places  for  these  people  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  it  broke  up  in  a  row. 

Q  What  grounds  have  the  Republicans  for  being  against  them? — A. 
They  say  there  is  no  employment,  and  that  it  is  a  common  and  thriftless 
class  of  people  who  are  coming  there. 


TESTIMONY  OF  ALBERT  J.  KELLY. 

Albert  J.  Kelly  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside? — Answer.  Terre  Haute. 

Q.  What  is  your  profession  ? — A.  Practicing  law. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  a  practicing  lawyer  ? — A.  I  was  admitted 
to  the  bar  in  18(39,  and  have  been  practicing  for  ten  years. 

Q.  State  what  official  position  you  hold  at  this  time  in  Indiana. — A. 
I  am  prosecuting  attorney  in  the  criminal  court  of  Vigo  Countv. 

Q.  State  how  long  you  have  been  in  that  position. — A.  Nearly  six 
years. 

Q.  How  often  do  you  have  the  grand  jury  together  within  the  year  in 
that  county? — A.  The  first  Monday  in  every  month. 

Q.  How  many  times  is  the  grand  jury  drawn? — A.  Twice;  at  the 
April  and  October  terms — every  six  months. 

Q.  How  much  of  the  time  every  year  is  the  criminal  court  in  session 
trying  criminal  cases  ? — A.  Perhaps  two-thirds  of  the  year. 

Q.  Your  county  has  a  large  town — the  city  of  Terre  Haute — in  it  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  a  large  amount  of  business  in  your  court  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  State  the  average  number  of  convictions  iu  your  court. — A.  Well, 
sir,  about  a  year  ago,  when  I  was  a  candidate  for  re-election,  I  made 
a  statement  of  the  average  number  of  convictions  in  our  court,  and  it 
averaged  a  hundred  a  year. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  for  felony? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  State  what  penalty  is  iu  Indiana  for  felonies. — A.  For  petit  lar¬ 
ceny  it  is  fifteen  years  ;  it  used  to  be  five,  but  it  has  been  enlarged  since 
that  time. 

Q.  State  what  you  know  of  convictions  for  petit  larceny. — A.  I  know 
that  I  have  been  criticised,  and  the  court  has  also,  for  sending  people  to 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


157 


the  penitentiary.  We  sometimes  have  a  man  up  for  grand  larceny  and 
whom  the  jury  does  not  convict,  so  that  he  can  be  sent  to  the  pen¬ 
itentiary.  Sometimes  the  State  consents  to  a  nolle  for  grand  larceny, 
and  it  takes  a  verdict  for  petit  larceny,  and  the  offender  is  sent  to  jail  ;< 
but  it  is  possible  to  send  a  man  to  jail  or  to  the  penitentiary  for  petit 
larceny. 

Q.  Where  the  sentence  is  reduced  from  grand  larceny  to  petit  larceny 
it  is  generally  on  account  of  the  previous  good  character  of  the  defend¬ 
ant? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  sometimes  the  stealing  is  of  something  very  triv-. 
ial ;  but  there  are  people  whom  the  whole  community  are  against,  and 
when  they  steal  and  are  caught  they  are  sent  to  the  penitentiary. 

Q.  That  not  being  their  first  offense,  and  it  being  to  the  interest  of 
good  society  to  have  them  out  of  the  way,  they  are  sent  to  the  peniten¬ 
tiary? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  in  our  State  when  they  go  on  the  witness 
stand  we  put  in  evidence  their  moral  character. 

Q.  And  when  they  are  men  of  bad  character  the  jury  are  liable  to 
give  them  the  full  extent  of  the  penalty? — A.  lres,  sir;  and  in  Vigo 
County  especially. 

Q.  It  has  been  attempted  to  be  shown  here  that  these  people  were 
faring  badly  in  the  courts  in  North  Carolina  ;  that  they  would  have  an 
easier  time  in  Indiana;  what  do  you  think  about  that  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  can 
illustrate.  There  was  a  darky  who  lived  in  the  sixth  ward,  known  as 
Bagdad,  and  who  nobody  could  keep  chickens  for.  You  would  buy 
them  one  day  and  they  would  go  the  next  morning;  but  he  was  caught 
with  some  chickens  in  a  bag  that  he  had  just  stolen,  and  was  sent  to 
the  penitentiary  and  disfranchised,  I  believe,  for  two  years. 

Q.  That  was  for  stealing  one  or  two  chickens? — A.  I  think  there  were 
several  in  his  bag. 

Q.  You  do  not  think  it  was  a  disgrace  to  the  State  to  send  that  man 
to  the  penitentiary? — A.  No,  sir;  but  I  thought  I  should  do  my  duty  in 
the  case,  and  the  Republican  papers  there  in  the  town  thought  it  was  a 
good  idea  to  catch  him  and  send  him  to  the  penitentiary.  We  got  rid 
of  him  in  that  way,  and  I  think  everybody,  white  and  Republican,  were 
glad  of  it. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  other  instance  of  the  same  character? — A. 
Another  instauce  was  the  sending  of  a  fellow  to  the  penitentiary  for 
stealing  a  coat.  There  were  some  difficulties  in  proving  the  value  of 
the  coat,  but  I  believe  it  was  an  old  soldier  or  army  coat. 

Q.  Aon  sent  him  to  the  penitentiary? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  what  length  of  time? — A.  We  sent  him  for  a  year. 

Q.  What  was  the  value  of  the  coat? — A.  It  was  proven  to  be  worth 
about  a  dollar,  I  believe. 

Q.  Why  did  they  send  him  to  the  penitentiary  for  stealing  a  coat  that 
was  only  worth  a  dollar?— A.  Because  he  was  a  bad  man,  and  everybody 
thought  he  ought  to  go  to  the  penitentiary. 

Q.  In  the  administration  of  the  law  there,  Mr.  Kelly,  do  the  whites  and 
blacks  get  the  same  consideration? — A.  Ares,  sir. 

Q.  And  these  people  from  North  Carolina  will  have  to  take  the  same 
penalties  as  other  people*? — A.  Yes,  sir;  not  only  that,  but  the  fact  of 
their  being  from  North  Carolina  I  think  would  be  a  little  against  them. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  a  colored  man  on  a  jury  in  Vigo  County  ? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  one  on  the  grand  jury? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  a  colored  justice  of  the  peace  in  Vigo  County? — 
A.  No,  sir ;  never. 

Q.  And  Vigo  County  is  oue  of  the  couuties  in  which  for  our  State 


158 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


there  is  a  large  colored  population  ? — A.  Yes.  sir;  and  there  are  some 
very  good  people  among  them. 

Q.  Are  there  tax  payers  and  men  who  own  their  own  farms? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  they  are  people  who  are  respected  by  everybody,  who  attend 
to  their  own  business  and  make  their  own  living.  I  will  say  further 
that  there  are  four  or  five  colored  men  in  the  penitentiary  for  life  for 
murder,  and  I  expect  an  equal  number  of  white  men.  There  have  been 
some  sent  from  Yigo  County  in  the  last  few  years. 

Q.  Wh  at  are  the  long  terms  of  confinement,  if  any? — A.  There  was 
vone  man,  for  manslaughter,  sent  for  18  years  just  last  summer.  There 
was  a  fellow,  a  negro,  charged  by  a  woman  whose  character  was  brought 
in  question.  He.  was  tried  and  convicted  and  sent  for  seven  years. 

Q.  That  was  for  trying  to  commit  a  rape  on  a  woman  of  his  own  race 
and  of  doubtful  virtue? — A.  YYs,  sir;  and  I  think  he  was  sent  to  the 
penitentiary  more  on  account  of  his  bad  character  than  on  account  of 
the  aggravated  nature  of  his  offense.  If  he  had  been  a  man  of  good 
character  I  do  not  think  he  would  have  gone  at  all. 

Q.  You  may  state  what  you  know,  if  anything,  of  a  colored  man  being 
sent  to  the  penitentiary  for  marrying  a  white  woman  ? — A.  I  had  five 
colored  men  indicted  for  intermarrying  with  white  women.  One  was 
convicted.  A  woman,  one  of  them,  came  in  and  said  she  had  a  little 
negro  blood  in  her.  One  of  them  could  not  swear  that  she  had  any 
negro  blood  in  her  veins;  she  had  red  hair  and  that  made  it  impossible 
to  be  mistaken.  Nobody  who  saw  her  would  mistake  that  she  was  a 
white  woman.  Our  law  says  that  any  person  with  one-eighth  negro  blood 
shall  not  be  allowed  to  intermarry  with  whites.  He  was  the  only  one 
that  we  could  convict. 

Q.  What  was  his  name  ? — A.  His  name  was  Nelson. 

Q.  What  about  his  pardon  ? — A.  It  has  been  favored  and  asked  for. 
There  has  been  an  effort  to  get  him  pardoned. 

Q.  What  about  myself? — A.  Yes,  sir;  you  went  to  Governor  Williams 
and  tried  to  get  him  pardoned. 

Q.  Governor  Williams  refused? — A.  Yes,  si? 

Q.  And  he  will  not  be  pardoned? — A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not.  There 
was  a  good  deal  of  difficulty  in  these  cases.  I  think  some  physicians 
came  in  there  to  examine  these  women  and  felt  their  shins  and  said  they 
were  colored.  That  was  done  to  save  these  men,  and  was  approved’ of, 
because  the  people  generally  felt  that  they  ought  not  to  go  to  the  peni¬ 
tentiary. 

Q.  Have  you  a  very  large  acquaintance  in  Yigo  County? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  canvassed  it  several  times? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  been 
elected  three  times,  and  have  been  canvassing  among  the  people  a  great 
deal. 

Q.  Have  you  mixed  with  the  people  from  the  country  ? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
I  examine  many  of  them  on  the  witness  stand  every  month. 

Q.  What  do  you  say  as  to  a  demand  for  laborers  at  this  time  in  Yigo 
County? — A.  I  say  there  is  none  at  all  at  this  time. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any  out  in  the  country? — A.  No,  sir;  they 
complain  a  great  deal  of  the  large  number  who  come  to  their  houses  for 
work,  and  who  impose  upon  them  for  their  charities. 

Q.  What  township? — A.  At  Terre  Haute,  in  Harrison  County. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  trustee  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  Benjamin  Abbott. 

Q.  What  are  his  politics  ? — A.  He  is  a  National. 

Q.  What  are  his  duties  ? — A.  It  is  his  duty  to  oversee  the  poor,  keep 
up  the  roads,  public  buildings,  and  bridges,  and  he  is  the  general  book¬ 
keeper  for.  the  township,  and  attends  to  all  their  business. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


159 


Q.  What  is  bis  duty  as  to  the  poor  ? — A.  When  he  is  satisfied  that 
persons  are  residents  of  the  township  and  are  in  a  destitute  condition, 
he  has  power  to  relieve  them. 

Q.  State  if  you  saw  Mr.  Abbott  before  you  came  on  here,  and  give  us 
his  statement,  so  that  we  need  not  send  for  him. — A.  I  had  a  conver¬ 
sation  with  him  one  day,  and  it  was  not  had  witli  the  expectation  of  my 
having  to  testify  here.  We  were  speaking  about  the  weather,  and  lie 
said  it  was  a  good  thing  for  our  people  that  the  winter  was  mild,  and 
that  if  it  had  not  been  so  the  distress  would  have  been  very  great  in 
Terre  Haute.  He  spoke  of  one  family  in  particular  that  was  suffering, 
that  the  man  had  been  working  at  a  dollar  a  day,  that  his  wife  was 
pick  and  his  children  also,  and  that  he  was  aiding  them  ;  that  the  man 
had  a  little  piece  of  property,  but  was  unable  to  make  a  living  on  ac¬ 
count  of  the  lack  of  labor  and  the  poor  wages  paid,  and  (hat  his  action 
Aad  been  assailed  because  he  had  been  aiding  them  when  they  had. 
property. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  as  to  persons  in  the  township  being  idle  ? — A.  I 
will  state  this,  that  the  street  commissioner  in  working  the  streets  has 
so  many  applications  from  idle  men  of  our  own  town  that  he  divides  it 
up,  and  lets  one  man  work  this  week  and  lie  off  the  next,  so  as  to  give 
another  man  a  chance  for  a  week’s  work. 

Q.  And  that,  you  say,  is  done  in  behalf  of  our  own  people  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  It  was  done  before  these  people  came  there? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  we 
have  only  two  seasons  in  the  year  when  we  need  a  large  supply  of  labor¬ 
ers  ;  that  is  the  harvest  and  the  corn  gathering  season,  and  we  have 
plenty  of  labor  from  among  our  own  people  to  supply  that  demand. 

Q.  You  say  we  have  plenty  of  our  own  people? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Please  state  any  messages  sent  to  you  by  any  farmers  of  Vigo 
County  on  this  subject. — A.  I  talked  to  Mr.  Stewart  of  Otter  Creek 
Township  ;  he  is  a  large  farmer. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  to  you  to  tell  me  ? — A.  He  said  to  tell  you  that 
the  county  was  overrun  with  laborers,  and  that  there  was  not  a  day  but 
that  eight  or  ten  came  to  his  house  and  wanted  work.  I  also  talked 
with  Mr.  Butts,  in  Sugar  Creek  Township,  and  James  Bolton,  in  Fay¬ 
ette  Township,  and  they  told  me  of  the  great  number  of  people  coming 
to  them  demanding  and  seeking  for  work. 

Q.  Did  you  acquaint  yourself  with  the  condition  of  these  emigrants 
before  you  came  on  here? — A.  My  information  is  not  very  great  on  that 
subject.  I  talked  to  people  about  them,  and  I  heard  they  were  down 
at  the  African  Methodist  Episcopal  church.  I  heard  a  colored  man 
standing  on  the  corner  of  Third  and  Ohio  streets  talking  about  it.  This 
colored  man  was  a  stranger,  and  I  expect  he  came  on  with  them.  He 
said  they  were  all  piled  up  in  one  room  together,  and  it  was  not  good 
for  them  •  that  if  they  staid  down  there  some  of  them  were  bound  to 
die* 

Q.  Wrere  they  in  the  church  then  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  eating  and  sleeping 
there.  Some  of  them,  too,  were  well-dressed  people,  and  looked  as 
though  they  might  do  well  if  they  had  an  opportunity. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  them  got  work — employment  ?—  A.  I  do  not 
know.  Lawrence  Heindle  and  Mr.  Dickerson  have  taken  two,  and  this 
case  of  Mr.  Beacham’s — that  is  all  I  know  of. 

Q.  Do  you  know  this  colored  man  Walker? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  do. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  circular  he  had  published  in  the  city  papers  there 
after  Judge  Carleton  came  on  here? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  the  interview  in  which  he  acknowledged  it? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 


160 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Stare  what  number  of  familes  lie  advertised  for. —  A.  Fifteen  or 
eighteen  hundred. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  that  that  is  a  fraud  of  the  greatest  possible 
character? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  do  know  it;  and  I  know  that  the  best  col¬ 
ored  people  of  our  State  condemn  it. 

Q.  You  know  that  his  course  is  condemned  pretty  generally  by  the 
people  in  our  section  without  respect  to  party  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Flare  you  seen  any  Republican  paper  that  condemned  it  ? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  Terre  Haute  Express  condemn  him  or  stand  by  him  in 
this  fraud? — A.  No,  sir;  it  rather  supported  him,  and  abused  me  and 
everybody  else  who  came  here  to  testify. 

Q.  And  the  Indianapolis  Journal  and  all  of  them  do  that? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

*  Q.  And  none  of  them  condemn  this  movement  and  fraud  on  the  col¬ 
ored  people  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  but  simply  abuse  this  committee  and  all  who 
come  here  to  testify. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  You  don’tlike  the  Republican  papers  much,  anyhow  ? — A.  No,  sir  ; 
I  am  not  particularly  fond  of  them,  and  I  have  reason  for  it. 

Q.  You  read  the  Democratic  papers? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  vote  the  Democratic  ticket? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  vote  it  early  and  often  ? — A.  I  generally  vote  it  once  every 
election. 

Q.  And  you  are  an  ardent  Democrat? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  all  the  good  in  the  country  is  centered  in  the  Demo¬ 
cratic  party? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Well,  a  larger  part  of  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  do. 

Q.  So  far  as  the  Republican  newspapers  are  concerned,  you  do  not 
think  they  speak  for  their  side  of  the  house  ? — A.  I  suppose  they  do. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  any  of  them  encourage  it  as  a  Republican  move¬ 
ment? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anybody  who  has? — A.  No,  sir;  except  what  I 
see  of  the  matter  and  judge  for  myself. 

Q.  What  do  you  judge  from  ? — A.  From  the  Republicans  solely  tak¬ 
ing  part  in  it;  or  defending  those  who  have  taken  them  out  there. 

Q.  Do  the  Democratic  papers  denounce  those  who  have  been  receiv¬ 
ing  them  when  they  came  there  in  a  destitute  condition  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
they  have  been  denouncing  the  movement. 

Q.  Do  the  Republican  papers  approve  of  giving  alms  to  the  destitute  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  is  Christian  conduct? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think 
it  is. 

Q.  Do  the  Republican  papers  approve  of  the  work  of  those  people 
who  brought  them  there  ? — A.  They  haveapproved  of  the  acts  of  Walker 
by  defending  and  not  disapproving  of  them. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  where  they  condemned  it  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  hear 
that  when  some  ot  these  people  came  here  and  testified,  they  have  been 
denounced,  and  the  papers  said  they  knew  nothing  of  Vigo  County,  or 
of  the  State.  That  was  said  about  one  gentleman  whom  I  know  knew 
a  great  deal  about  it. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  anything  of  mobs  to  burn  the  houses  that  had 
been  rented  to  North  Carolina  negroes  ? — A.  I  have  heard  of  threats  of 
that  kind,  but  I  do  not  know  anything  about  them. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  threats  that  they  should  not  come  there  ? — A.  I 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  161 

have  heard  them  say  that  they  did  not  want  them  there,  and  that  they 
should  not  continue  to  come. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  would  decrease  the  demand  for  these  labor¬ 
ers  ? — A.  I  should  think  so,  as  a  man  would  naturally  take  care  of  his 
property. 

Q.  Well,  anyhow,  you  heard  of  these  threats  being  made  by  Demo¬ 
crats  f — A.  I  did  not  say  that.  I  heard  that  people  had  said  that. 

Q.  You  have  talked  to  Republicans  about  this  movement  f— -A.  Y"es, 
sir. 

Q.  And  they  objected  to  it. — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  they  were  colored  Re¬ 
publicans. 

Q.  Who  is  Stewart  ?  What  are  his  politics  ? — A.  He  was  a  National¬ 
ist. 

Q.  What  was  Butt's  politics  ? — A.  He  was  a  Democrat. 

Q.  And  Bolton’s  ? — A.  He  was  a  Democrat. 

Q.  They  were  all  Democrats  who  sent  the  messages  to  Senator  Yoor- 
hees  — A.  No,  sir;  Ido  not  know  of  any  messages  sent  to  Senator 
Voorhees  by  anybody  except  Stewart. 


TESTIMONY  OF  ROBERT  VAN  YALZER. 

Robert  Van  Valzer  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside  % — Answer.  In  Terre  Haute. 

Q.  What  is  your  profession  ? — A.  I  am  a  dentist. 

Q.  What  position  do  ycu  hold  from  Yigo  County  ? — A.  A  member  of 
the  legislature. 

Q.  Are  you  at  this  time? — A.  YYs,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  elected  in  1S78? — A.  YYs,  sir. 

Q.  State  if  you  have  a  general  acquaintance  with  the  people  in  that 
county,  being  their  representative  in  the  legislature. — A.  I  have  a  large 
•acquaintance  in  the  county. 

Q.  State  if  there  is  any  demand  that  you  know  of  for  labor  there, 
either  from  the  inside  or  outside  of  the  county. — A.  None,  sir.  There 
is  no  demand  for  labor  there  now. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  there  is  not  a  surplus,  and  if  people  are  not  suffer¬ 
ing  for  want  of  employment  ? — A.  There  is  no  surplus  of  laborers. 

Q.  I  mean,  Mr.  Yau  Yalzer,  are  there  more  laborers  than  can  find  em¬ 
ployment  ? — A.  O,  yes,  sir.  I  misunderstood  you.  There  are  many 
more  laborers  than  can  find  employment ;  and  that  includes  persons  who 
have  lived  there,  and  are  citizens  of  that  town. 

Q.  And  I  understand  vou  that  many  are  suffering  for  the  want  of 
employment  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Doctor,  have  you  noticed  this  immigration  that  has  been  coming 
in  there  ? — A.  I  have. 

Q.  What  is  the  condition  they  are  in  ? — A.  There  seem  to  me  to  be 
a  great  many  of  them  in  want  of  something  to  eat.  A  great  many  of 
them  have  been  to  my  house  begging.  I  live  in  the  second  ward,  close 
to  the  negro  church  where  they  are  quartered ;  and  they  came  over 
there  frequently  to  ask  for  something  to  eat. 

Q.  Have  you  been  down  to  the  church  yourself  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  have 
not. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  conversation  with  any  of  them  about  why  they 
11  EX 


162 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


came  there? — A.  No,  sir;  not  with  the  immigrants,  but  I  have  with  our 
own  colored  people. 

Q.  What  is  the  general  sentiment  about  it  among  your  own  colored 
people  ? — A.  One,  Samuel  Archer,  told  me  these  people  are  offered  from 
a  dollar  to  two  dollars  and  a  half  a  day  for  their  labor,  if  they  would 
come  to  Indiana.  This  promise,  he  said,  could  not  be  fulfilled,  and  he 
was  sorry  they  had  come. 

Q.  What  is  the  general  price  of  laborers,  per  month,  in  that  section  ? 
— A.  Farm  laborers  get  from  ten  to  twelve  dollars  per  month. 

Q.  What  are  day  laborers  paid  ? — A.  From  a  dollar  to  a  dollar  and 
a  half. 

Q.  Not  where  they  are  boarded  ;  what,  where  they  board  themselves? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  get  from  a  dollar  to  a  dollar  and  a  half  a  day,  and  are 
boarded  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  farm  laborers  get  from  ten  to  twelve  dollars  a 
mouth.  There  is  very  little  hiring  by  the  day. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  meetings  being  held  to  secure  employment 
and  assistance  for  these  people;  did  you  attend  any  of  the  meetings? 
— A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  All  classes  out  there  have  given  something  to  help  them  ? — A.  I 
don’t  know  anything  about  that. 

Q.  Have  there  been  any  appeals  made  in  the  papers  for  help  ? — A.  I 
saw  one  appeal. 

Q.  Did  you  see  this  man  Walker’s  circular? — A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not. 
I  saw  him  himself  last  Thursday  night.  He  visited  my  office  to  have 
a  tooth  extracted,  and  he  said  that  nineteen  more  of  these  negroes  had 
come.  I  said,  u  Are  there  any  others  expected  ?”  and  he  said  that  on 
Saturday  they  expected  one  hundred. 

Q.  That  was  last  Saturday  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  he  indicated  to  me 
that  he  was  the  receiver  of  them.  He  said  that  some  of  those  people 
were  very  old  and  some  were  very  young. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  political  talk  with  Walker? — A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  State  whether  you  had  with  any  other  colored  people  there  ? — A. 
I  had  with  another  colored  man.  I  wish  I  could  call  his  name.  But  he 
was  advertising  for  a  clothing  house  there;  I  cannot  remember  the 
name;  but  he  told  me  these  people  were  brought  there  under  misrepre¬ 
sentations;  that  they  were  promised  two  and  two  dollars  and  a  half  a 
day;  aud  that  nobody  could  get  these  wages  there;  that  he  had  been 
living  there  some  time  aud  could  not  get  it  himself.  I  said,  u  Do  you 
think  they  are  brought  here  to  vote  for  the  Republican  ticket?”  and  he 
said  he  thought  so. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  He  said  he  thought  so  ? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Not  that  it  was  so,  but  that  he  thought  so  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  expressed  any  opinion  yourself  upon  that  subject? — A. 
No,  sir ;  I  have  not. 

Q.  He  gave  no  reason  for  his  opinion  ? — A.  No,  sir;  but  that  is  the 
way  the  colloquy  ran. 


TESTIMONY  OF  M.  T.  LEWMAN. 

M.  T.  Lewman  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Mr.  Lewman,  give  your  name  and  residence  to  the  reporter 
—Answer.  M.  T.  Lewman,  Greencastle,  Putnam  County,  Indiana. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  163 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation? — A.  I  am  at  this  time  sheriff  of  the 
county. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  sheriff? — A.  I  have  been  the  sheriff  for 
three  years  last  fall — October  perhaps. 

Q.  You  are  serving  your  second  term  ? — A.  f  am  in  my  fourth  year, 
yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  dispose  of  one  point  that  has  been  made  here  before  we?go 
further,  please  state  to  the  committee  what  you  know  of  persons  con¬ 
victed  of  felony,  and  sent  to  the  penitentiary  for  petit  larceny,  and 
give  the  amounts? — A.  One  case  that  was  called  to  my  mind  was  that 
ot  three  parties,  I  think,  or  two  of  the  parties  were  sent  to  the  peniten¬ 
tiary  for  stealing  fifty  cents,  which  they  took  out  of  a  man’s  pocket  at 
the  fair  grounds,  making  it  a  robbery  that  they  were  sent  to  the  peni¬ 
tentiary  for. 

Q.  The  larceny  consisted  in  taking  fifty  cents  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  took  them  to  the  penitentiary  ? — A.  I  am  sure  that  I 
have  taken  nobody  to  the  penitentiary  for  that  low  amount  myself. 

Q.  But  that  was  the  amount  in  this  case? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  fifty 
cents. 

Q.  What  did  they  say  was  done  with  them  ? — A.  They  were  taken 
to  the  penitentiary  for  two  years. 

Q.  They  were  white  people? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  was  no  great  outcry  made  about  it  as  to  any  great  injustice 
done  them  in  that,  was  there? — A.  No,  sir;  they  were  taken  as  pick¬ 
pockets  in  the  community,  and  were  caught  slipping  round  the  fair 
ground. 

Q.  Was  there  any  emigration  of  that  class  of  people  on  account  of 
that  conviction  ? — A.  No,  sir;  not  that  I  heard  of. 

Q.  Now,  I  want  you  to  go  on  and  tell  what  you  know  of  this  emigra¬ 
tion  of  negroes  from  North  Carolina  to  Putnam  County.  How  long  have 
you  lived  in  that  county? — A.  I  have  lived  in  the  neighborhood  four¬ 
teen  or  fifteen  years.  I  have  been  in  Greencastle  and  the  county  off 
and  on  for  twenty-five  years. 

Q.  Have  you  an  extensive  acquaintance  in  that  county? — A.  There 
may  be  some  people  there  who  have  more  acquaintances  than  1  have, 
but  I  believe  I  know  every*  prominent  man  in  the  county. 

Q.  It  is  one  of  the  rich  and  highly  cultivated  counties  of  the  State, 
is  it  not? — A.  Yres,  sir;  it  is  what  is  called  the  center  of  the  blue- grass 
region,  and  we  raise  a  great  deal  of  stock  in  the  county,  and  a  great 
deal  of  it  is  in  grass. 

Q.  State  whether  there  is  any  demand  amongst  the  farmers  or  any¬ 
body  else  in  that  county  for  labor  beyond  what  can  be  supplied  there 
at  home. — A.  The  only  demand  that  we  have  had  there  during  the 
winter  at  all  was  a  demand  for  mechanics.  We  had  a  little  demand 
for  house  carpenters  for  a  while,  as  there  were  several  good  buildings 
being  put  up  in  the  town,  but  in  the  country  there  is  no  demand  for 
labor  now  at  all.  During  the  planting  and  harvesting  and  gathering 
of  the  grain  there  is  some  demand,  but  now  we  have  idle  men  there  in 
large  numbers  who  supply  that  and  more  than  fill  it.  You  can  look  out 
on  the  street  at  any  time  in  Greencastle  and  see  there  white  and  black 
standing  on  the  corners.  There  was  a  gentleman  in  my  office  not  long 
ago  who  came  from  North  Carolina  to  take  two  negroes  back  who  had 
written  for  him  to  come  after  them.  He  asked  me  the  same  question^ 
and  1  told  him  just  to  look  out  of  the  window  or  door  into  the  street^ 
and  he,  I  think,  counted  six  who  were  in  sight,  and  who  belonged  there 


164 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  What  was  his  name,  that  gentleman  from  North  Carolina  ? — A. 
Fields,  I  believe  ;  I  am  pretty  sure  that  was  his  name. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Laugsdale,  the  editor  of  the  Greencastle  Ban¬ 
ner  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  State  what  the  politics  of  that  paper  is. — A.  It  is  a  Republican 
paper. 

Q.  What  is  Laugsdale’s  politics  ? — A.  Republican. 

Q.  What  office  does  he  hold  under  this  administration  ? —  A.  He  is 
postmaster. 

Q.  Where  at  ? — A.  At  Greencastle. 

Q.  What  sized  place  is  Greencastle  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  they  claim  G,000, 
but  I  do  not  quite  think  there  are  that  many,  but  I  think  there  are 
5,000,  probably. 

Q.  It  is  the  seat  of  the  Indiana  Asbury  College,  is  it  not? — A.  Yres, 
sir  ;  wre  have  the  colleges  there. 

Q.  And  the  Indianapolis  and  St.  Louis  and  the  Vandalia  roads, 
which  are  parallel  roads,  and  the  Louisville  and  New  Albany  roads 
cross  there  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  the  two  first  are  parallel  lines  and  the  other 
crosses  the  two. 

Q.  Have  you  noticed  any  publications  on  this  subject  of  the  migra¬ 
tion  of  negroes  from  North  Carolina  to  Indiana  in  Langsdale’s  paper, 
and  if  so  state  when  it  was  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  as  to  the  time  of  them. 
The  first  I  noticed  on  this  subject  I  gave  it  at  the  time  very  little  at¬ 
tention.  I  just  thought  it  was  one  of  his  foolish  ideas,  as  Langsdale 
was  one  of  the  extreme  men  in  his  party.  We  have  extreme  Democratic 
editors  and  extreme  Radical  editors  out  there,  aud  so  I  paid  very 
little  attention  to  what  he  said.  I  cannot  give  the  contents  of  the 
article,  but  it  was  in  reference  to  the  Republicans  carrying  the  State 
of  Indiana,  either  that  it  could  be  or  would  be  carried  by  the  im¬ 
portation  of  negroes  from  the  South.  It  seems  to  me  now  that  it  was 
something  of  that  kind.  I  paid  no  attention  to  it  at  the  time,  and  not 
until  some  time  afterwards.  This  first  article  was  in  italics,  but  I  can 
not  give  the  contents  of  it. 

Q.  Have  you  any  articles  that  appeared  in  his  paper  with  you  ? — A. 
I  have  a  copy  of  a  letter  that  was  put  up  at  his  office,  so  I  understand. 
The  party  I  got  it  from  was  a  negro,  who  said  that  Mr.  Perry  or  Mr. 
Williams,  colored  gentlemen  from  North  Carolina,  gave  it  to  him.  1 
understand  from  a  party  who  knows  that  it  was  put  up  in  Langsdale’s 
office.  I  know  the  party  who  put  up  the  type. 

Q.  What  is  your  information  as  to  who  was  the  party  who  wrote  it? 
— A.  Mr.  Langsdale. 

Q.  Whose  name  is  signed  to  it? — A.  Mr.  Clay,  the  pastor  of  the 
church,  a  colored  church  there  in  our  town.  (The  witness  here  passed 
the  paper  to  the  chairman).  One  of  the  gentlemen  stated  that  he  helped 
to  set  up  the  type  and  that  it  was  written  in  Mr.  Langsdale’s  hand¬ 
writing,  and  the  name  of  Clay  signed  to  it. 

The  Chairman.  Just  wait  a  moment,  Mr.  Lewmau,  until  I  ask  Mr. 
Warnock  a  few  questions. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


165 


TESTIMONY  OF  -  WARNOCK. 

Mr.  Warnock  sworn  and  examined. 

By  tbe  Chairman: 

Question.  (Passing  tbe  paper  to  tbe  witness.)  State  if  you  ever  saw 
that  paper  before? — Answer.  I  did. 

Q.  Where  at  ? — A.  In  tbe  Greencastle  Banner  office, while  I  was  em¬ 
ployed  there. 

Q.  Are  you  a  printer  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  am. 

Q.  Bid  you  help  to  set  it  up  in  that  office  ? — A.  No,  sir.  I  saw  the 
young  man  set  it  up. 

Q.  Whose  handwriting  was  it  in  ? — A.  The  handwriting  closely  re¬ 
sembled  Mr.  Langsdale’s. 

Q.  Would  you  have  taken  it  for  Langsdale’s  handwriting? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  think  now  that  it  was  his  handwriting? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  You  say  it  was  in  his  handwriting? — A.  No,  sir;  I  say  it  looked 
like  it. 

Q.  Bo  you  know  the  printer  who  set  it  up  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  Mr.  George 
W.  Moreland.  t 

Q.  Bo  you  know  that  it  is  the  custom  of  editors  to  frequently  write 
letters  for  their  customers  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  as  to  that. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Mr.  Laugsdale  had  a  very  peculiar  handwriting,  had  he  not  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  you  could  not  mistake  it. 

Q.  And  you  say  it  was  his  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  Who  was  your  employer? — A.  Mr.  Langsdale. 

Q.  Are  you  there  with  Mr.  Langsdale  now  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  leave  there? — A.  In  September. 

Q.  What  time  did  you  say  this  was  set  up  in  that  office?  When  did 
you  see  it  there? — A.  It  was  two  mouths,  I  suppose,  before  I  left — dur¬ 
ing  the  excitement  over  the  exodus  to  Kansas. 

Q.  Why  did  you  leave  Mr.  Langsdale’s  employment  ? — A.  1  was 
offered  more  money  at  another  place. 

Q.  Who  by  ? — A.  Mr.  Arnold,  of  the  Star  office. 

Q.  What  are  the  politics  of  the  Star? — A.  It  is  Independent  Green¬ 
back,  I  believe. 

Q.  Are  you  still  there  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  state  whether  the  paper  is  for  or  against  the  exodus? — 
A.  I  suppose  it  is  opposed  to  it,  as  most  of  the  people  are. 

Q.  You  have  had  no  trouble  with  Editor  Laugsdale,  have  you  ? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  You  simply  made  an  exodus  to  the  Star  office  to  better  yourself  ? — ■ 
A.  Yes,  sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  M.  T.  LEWMAN  RESUMED. 

M.  T.  Lewman  recalled  to  the  stand. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Bo  you  know  Mr.  Warner? — 
known  him  since  1  was  a  boy. 


Answer.  Yes,  sii  ;  I  have 


166 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  You  may  state  what  his  standing  and  character  are. — A.  I  never 
heard  anything  against  him  in  my  life,  and  1  do  not  think  he  had  any 
knowledge  of  being  subpoenaed  here  until  he  got  the  dispatch  to  come. 

Q.  You  say  you  got  this  document  from  a  negro  ?— A.  lres,  sir. 

Q.  Bo  you  remember  his  name? — A.  Mr.  Mace,  I  believe. 

Q.  Where  is  he  now? — A.  At  Greencastle. 

Q.  Is  he  an  agent  of  this  emigrant  business? — A.  No,  sir;  he  is  a 
resident  negro  there,  and  has  been  there  some  time.  A  short  time 
after  those  letters  were  set  up,  perhaps  a  month  afterwards,  I  got  from 
Mr.  Arnold  an  inkling  that  there  had  been  such  articles  as  these  dis¬ 
tributed  through  the  South,  and  that  none  of  them  were  left  there,  so  I 
could  not  tell  where  to  get  one.  I  spoke  to  Mr.  Mace  after  the  first 
batch,  I  think  of  fifty-six  negroes,  came  there  with  the  first  lot.  They 
were  all  men,  I  believe,  and  there  were  no  women  with  them  but  one, 
and  I  talked  with  Mr.  Mace  and  asked  him  to  get  me  one  of  these  let¬ 
ters,  and  he  got  that  from  Mingo  Simmons.  It  came  from  him,  and  I 
think  he  came  from  about  La  Grange,  North  Carolina. 

The  Chairman.  (Senator  Voorhees)  then  read  the  following  to  the 
committee : 

INDIANA. 

This  is  a  rich  State  of  fertile  lands,  with  abuudant  timber  of  every  variety.  The 
climate  is  healthful,  and  is  not  too  cold  for  me,  although  I  was  raised  in  Georgia.  It 
is  just  right. 

Free  schools  are  maintained  from  three  to  six  months  each  year  in  every  neigh¬ 
borhood.  .  The  blacks  are  admitted  to  these  schools  on  the  same  terms  as  the  whites, 
or,  as  is  usually  the  case  in  cities,  they  have  separate  schools  with  good  teachers. 

Our  people  already  have  numerous  churches,  and  more  are  being  built  every  year 
by  the  help  of  our  white  friends,  so  that  our  church  privileges  are  all  that  can  be 
desired. 

In  Indiana  all  stand  equal  before  the  law — the  black  man  being  protected  in  his 
contracts,  property,  and  person  the  same  as  the  white. 

Those  of  our  race  who  come  from  the  South  and  locate  here  have  greatly  improved 
their  condition,  especially  those  who  have  engaged  in  farming.  Thousands  of  good 
farm  hands  and  house  servants  can  readily  find  employment  at  remunerative  wages, 
and  when  you  have  earned  your  money  the  law  will  compel  payment,  should  it  be 
refused,  which  is  not  likely  to  be  the  case.  What  we  want  is  honest,  industrious  men, 
who  know  how  and  are  willing  to  work  on  farms,  and  the  same  class  of  women  to  do 
housework.  Loafers  are  not  wanted. 

Don’t  sell  your  horses  and  wagons  at  half  price  to  pay  your  fare  on  railroads  and 
steamboats,  but  hitch  up  your  teams  and  come  overland  to  Indiana,  like  the  children 
of  Israel  marched  out  of  Egypt.  It  will  only  take  a  short  time  to  do  so.  All  who 
intend  coming  should  do  so  daring  the  present  summer  and  ensuing  fait,  so  as  to  get  located 
in  time  to  make  their  contracts  with  the  farmers  for  next  year.  Such  contracts  are 
best  made  before  Christmas.  Colored  men  already  here  will  assist  those  who  come  in 
obtaining  work  or  situations.  Persons  who  desire  further  information  can  obtain  it 
b& addressing  me.  But  don’t  wait  to  write ;  gather  up  what  you  have  and  come  at 
once,  so  as  to  be  safe  when  the  fifteenth  amendment  is  repealed,  for  the  purpose  of 
returning  you  to  a  condition  of  slavery  if  you  are  found  south  of  the  Ohio  river. 

JOHN  H.  CLAY, 

Pastor  Bethel  Chapel,  M.  E.  Church,  Greencastle,  lud. 

Show  this  to  our  people  in  your  neighborhood,  and  then  keep  it  for  future  refer¬ 
ence. 

The  Witness.  This  is  an  article  (producing  a  paper)  that  went  with, 
that,  I  understood,  and  they  were  distributed  together.  I  have  under¬ 
stood,  from  the  negroes  who  came  from  North  Carolina,  that  the  two 
were  distributed  together. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  This  was  all  printed  in  the  paper? — A.  No,  sir;  that  circular 
sigued  by  Clay  was  not ;  it  is  a  private  circular. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  167 

Q.  When  did  this  first  one  come  into  your  hands  ? — A.  ISTot  more  than 
a  month  ago. 

Q.  Did  you  learn  how  long  it  had  been  printed  and  put  in  circulation  ? 
— A.  Only  from  Mr.  Williams. 

Q.  What  did  he  say'? — A.  He  came  to  my  office,  perhaps  two  or  three 
weeks  ago,  and  I  was  in  the  auditors  office  at  the  time.  My  son  brought 
him  in  there  and  said  there  was  a  man  who  wanted  to  see  me.  I  said  to 
him,  “  What  can  I  do  for  you  ?”  and  he  said,  “I  wanted  to  see  you  to  get 
the  use  of  the  court-house  for  to-night.”  I  said,  “What  for?”  and  he 
said,  “  Your  people  here  do  not  seem  to  know  why  we  have  come  up  here 
to  Indiana”;  and  he  said  they  wanted  to  hold  a  meeting  in  the  court¬ 
house  to  explain  their  objects.  I  said  to  him  that  I  did  not  think  it  was 
of  any  use  to  do  that,  and  asked  him,  “Where  do  you  live  ?  ”  He  says, 
“I  live  here,”  and  I  said,  “  Where  did  you  come  from,  and  how  long 
have  you  beeu  here  ?  ”  He  said  he  came  from  North  Carolina,  and  had 
been  here  three  or  four  days.  I  said  to  him,  “I  do  not  think  you  are  a 
citizen  enough  to  be  treated  as  such,”  and  that  the  county  board  did  not 
allow  the  court  house  to  go  to  the  use  of  anybody  but  to  citizens.  I  said, 
“  What  is  your  name?”  and  he  said  his  name  was  Williams.  I  said, 
“Are  you  P.  C.  Williams?”  and  he  said,  “Yes.”  I  said,  “Are  you  the  man 
who  sent  these  circulars  out  in  the  South  among  the  negroes  ?  ”  and  Iffi 
said,  “  No.”  I  said,  “  There  is  no  use  to  deny  it  for  I  have  the  evidence, 
and  you  are  an  intelligent  man  and  a  preacher,  and  I  know  you  did  do 
it.  You  were  here  in  September,  and  you  aud  Perry  took  them  ;  they 
went  out  of  the  office  with  you,  aud  you  took  them  to  North  Carolina.” 
I  was  looking  at  him  very  straight;  and  thei^hesaid,  “No,  sir;  I  did 
not,  but  Perry  took  400  of  them.”  That  was  admitted  to  me  by  him 
in  the  presence  of  Mr.  Edwards. 

Mr.  Warnock  was  called  to  the  stand  for  a  question. 

By  the  Chairman: 

Q.  Mr.  Warnock,  do  you  remember  when  this  circular  was  set  up  in 
the  Banner  office ? — A.  It  must  have  been  July,  I  think,  but  I  cannot 
remember  exactly  the  time. 

Testimony  of  M.  T.  Lewman  resumed. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Go  on,  Mr.  Lewman,  with  your  statement. — A.  i  understood  from 
Williams  that  Perry  took  them  from  there  about  the  1st  of  September, 
but  I  may  be  mistaken  as  to  the  time. 

The  Chairman  (Senator  Yoorhees)  then  read  to  the  committee  the 
following  from  the  printed  circular  : 

INDIANA  AND  THE  EXODUS. 

|  From  the  Greeucastle  (Indiana)  Banner,  September  25. 

A  party  of  colored  refugees  from  Kentucky  passed  through  here  Thursday  on  their 
way  to  Kansas,  under  the  care  of  N.  R.  Harper,  of  Louisville.  They  arrivedjat  5  p.  m., 
and  remained  until  11,  when  they  took  the  western  train.  While  here  they  were  taken 
in  charge  by  Rev.  J.  H.  Clay  and  his  congregation  and  entertained  in  Bethel  Chapel. 
They  presented  an  intelligent  appearance,  and  realized  in  every  particular  the  impor¬ 
tance  of  the  step  they  were  taking.  The  ruling  idea  with  them  was  to  buy  land,  and 
this  they  think  they  can  do  more  easily  in  Kansas,  where  lauds  are  cheap,  than  they 
can  in  the  older  States.  At  the  same  time  they  concede  the  fact  that  it  will  be  better 
for  those  who  haven’t  money  to  buy  land  to  stop  in  Indiana,  Ohio,  or  Illinois,  where 
thpir  labor  on  farms  is  in  such  demand  at  remunerative  wages.  They  have  an  impres¬ 
sion  that  they  will  be  safe  from  persecution  iu  Kansas,  and  they  were  both  surprised 
and  pleased  to  learn  that  they  would  be  equally  secure  iu  the  more  enlightened  por¬ 
tions  of  Iudiana.  They  stated  that  all  the  negroes  iu  Kentucky  who  are  industrious 
and  have  an  ambition  to  better  their  condition  will  leave  for  the  North  during  the 


168 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


present  fall  and  winter,  except  the  few  who  are  led  by  deceptive  promises  from  the 
whites  to  remain. 

We  do  not  believe  that  they  can  do  better  than  to  come  to  Indiana.  We  need  their 
labor  on  our  farms  and  in  our  households,  and  will  pay  them  the  cash  for  it.  There 
are  no  stores  owned  by  the  farmers  here  to  cheat  them  out  of  their  earnings.  Here 
they  will  have  precisely  the  same  opportunity  and  privilege  that  the  whites  have  to 
win  fame  and  fortune,  and  they  cannot  do  better  than  to  settle  among  us.  There 
is  scarcely  a  farm  in  Putnam  County  but  that  would  be  the  better  for  their  services. 
In  some  parts  of  the  county  this  year  fields  have  been  uncultivated  for  the  want  of 
workmen.  If  the  colored  exodus  from  the  South  brings  those  to  us,  it  will  be  better 
for  all  concerned. 

Three  gentleman,  living  twenty  miles  away,  came  to  town  Thursday  after  colored 
families  to  live  on  their  farms,  under  the  impression  that  the  colored  people  to  arrive 
that  day  were  to  remain.  When  they  learned  that  Kansas  was  tNeir  destination,  their 
disappointment  was  very  great.  They  each  stated  that  they  would  be  willing  to  fur¬ 
nish  a  man  with  a  house  to  live  in,  a  garden,  a  cow  to  milk,  firewood,  and  pay  him 
$15  a  month  cash.  They  further  stated  that  the  female  members  of  colored  families 
could  find  constant  employment  in  the  neighborhood  at  good  wages. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Go  on  and  state  to  the  committee  what  you  know  of  that  kind  of 
literature  being  sent  South  ? — A.  I  understood  from  the  man  that  these 
circulars  had  both  been  distributed  very  generally  down  there.  After 
1  got  hold  of  this  first  one  (I  had  to  pay  $7  for  it)  they  told  me  they 
both  went  together.  I  was  anxious  to  get  hold  of  it.  It  does  not  look 
like  it  was  worth  the  price  ;  but  I  wanted  to  see  it  and  I  bought  it. 
Simmons  said  he  took  an  oath  never  to  part  with  it  except  to  Mr.  Langs- 
dale  or  Mr.  Clay.  I  do  not  know  whether  that  is  true  or  not :  but  I 
have  only  his  word  for  it.  I  will  say  here  that,  in  reference  to  that  $15 
a  month,  I  am  pretty  generally  over  the  county  from  time  to  time,  and 
pretty  well  acquainted  with  the  farmers.  My  business  before  I  went 
into  office  was  building,  and  employing  a  good  many  people.  I  have 
been  following  the  building  business  all  my  life,  and  I  know  the  prices 
of  labor,  and  I  have  talked  to  a  number  of  farmers  since  this  exodus 
has  been  coming  into  the  county.  It  created  quite  a  furor  among  not 
only  Democrats,  but  Republicans;  but  we  have  some  extreme  men  in 
our  county,  like  Langsdale,  who  favor  it.  I  have  talked  to  farmers 
about  wages,  and  they  toldjme  that  $10  would  be  the  average  price  in 
the  county;  but  these  negroes  said  they  were  promised  $15  in  the  win¬ 
ter  and  $20  in  the  summer. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  the  truth  of  the  statement  that  a  party 
employing  one  of  these  emigrants  would  give  him  a  house  to  live  in, 
and  a  cow  and  a  calf,  and  probably  drive  the  cow  up  for  him  to  milk, 
and  give  him  his  food;  what  kind  of  a  statement  does  that  look  like? 
— A.  That  is  very  overrated,  I  think.  I  do  not  think  there  is  a  laboring 
man  in  the  county  who  is  getting  anything  like  that. 

Q.  That  is  a  very  greatly  overdrawn  picture,  is  it  ? — A.  Of  course  it  is. 

Q.  What  do  you  put  the  daily  wages  at  which  men  get,  ordinary 
laborers,  where  they  board  themselves,  and  what  are  the  monthly 
wages  ? — A.  With  farmers,  if  they  go  to  work  on  a  farm,  now,  they  get 
50  cents  a  day,  or  $10  per  month  ;  $12  is  the  pay  for  a  very  good  hand. 
Those  negroes  who  came  there — and  there  are  a  good  number  of  them 
that  have  landed  in  the  county — I  have  made  some  inquiries  of  as  to 
what  they  were  getting.  Dr.  Stevenson  is  a  gentleman  living  just  east 
of  our  place  and  having  1,000  to  1,800  acres  of  land. 

Q.  He  is  a  very  rich  man? — A.  Yes,  sir;  worth  half  a  million,  I 
think. 

Q.  He  is  a  Republican,  also  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  Well,  he  had  a  lot  of 
them  making  rails  for  him.  I  understood  he  had  24  on  his  place  at  one 
time,  and  that  he  had  displaced  some  white  men  to  put  them  in.  I  do 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


169 


not  know  as  to  the  truth  of  that ;  but  I  heard  it ;  and  he  got  them  to 
go  on  his  place  and  make  rails  at  25  cents  a  hundred.  I  heard  a  negro 
say  so  himself.  I  overtook  one  of  them  on  the  road  and  asked  him 
what  he  was  doing.  He  said  he  was  making  rails  for  Dr.  Stevenson, 
and  making  them  out  of  hickory  wood. 

Q.  How  many  rails  can  a  man  make  a  day  out  of  hickory  wood  ? — A. 
I  do  not  know,  sir;  I  think  not  more  than  a  hundred,  anyhow.  I  also 
heard  them  laughing  about  shucking  corn  for  20  cents  a  day. 

Q.  Then  you  think  that  they  would  be  doing  well  there  to  make  25 
cents  a  day  ? — A.  1  do  not  think  those  that  are  there  have  averaged  25 
cents  a  day. 

Q.  How  many  do  you  estimate  have  been  landed  there  in  the  county  ? 
—A.  I  have  put  it  at  the  lowest  estimate  at  250.  1  kept  an  account  of 

them  pretty  well  until  they  got  so  many  that  I  lost  the  run  of  them. 

Q.  When  did  the  last  lot  come  to  the  county  ? — A.  I  think  there 
were  a  few  of  them  last  week.  The  last  lots  have  been  very  small. 

Q.  Then  the  exodus  seems  tapering  off? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  of  those  who  have  come  there  do  you  think  have  got 
employment? — A.  I  expect  a  half  of  them  have;  I  suppose  not  more 
than  that.  I  know  I  was  down  at  the  Indianapolis,  Cincinnati  and  La¬ 
fayette  depot  the  other  day,  where  I  saw  21  of  them  in  a  room  not 
larger  than  this  (about  18  by  20  feet). 

Q.  Where  was  that  at  ? — A.  Year  the  north  depot.  They  were  living 
in  there  at  the  railroad  crossing,  and  were  mostly  women  and  children. 
There  were  some  men  about,  L  believe. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  stove  in  there  ? — A.  I  did  not  see  any  stove  in 
there.  How  1  came  up  there,  I  received  letters  almost  daily  from  par¬ 
ties  down  in  La  Grange,  North  Carolina,  asking  me  if  I  would  buy  them 
tickets  and  see  that  they  got  on  the  road  back  to  North  Carolina ;  but  I 
know  very  little  about  that  part  of  the  business,  for  I  was  busy,  and  I 
told  Mr.  Allen,  my  deputy,  to  take  out  ray  letters  and  answer  them  and 
attend  to  them  for  me.  lie  knows  all  about  it  and  can  tell  you. 

Q.  Was  it  in  consequence  of  these  letters  that  you  were  down  there 
at  the  depot? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was  trying  to  see  a  woman  that  a  gentle¬ 
man  wrote  for,  and  as  I  was  in  that  part  of  the  town  1  just  looked  in 
there  to  see  if  I  could  find  her. 

Q.  Did  you  hud  the  woman  ? — A.  Mr.  Allen  did.  She  was  down 
there,  but  out  of  the  room  at  the  time  I  called. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  whether  they  want  to  go  back  home  to  North  Caro¬ 
lina. — A.  I  am  fully  satisfied  that  quite  one-half  and  possibly  two- 
thirds  would  gladly  go  back  if  they  could  get  there.  I  have  talked  to 
one  or  two,  for  they  have  been  coming  to  my  office  to  see  about  getting 
letters  written,  but  I  turned  it  all  over  to  Mr.  Allen. 

Q.  Is  he  a  deputy  in  your  office  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  Mr.  Fields  took  two 
of  the  negroes  back,  and  he  told  me  that  every  one  that  he  had  seen 
from  his  place  wanted  to  go  back  with  him. 

Q.  When  did  Mr.  Fields  come  to  Greencastle  ? — A.  I  cannot  tell  you; 
it  may  have  been  three  weeks  ago,  more  or  less. 

Q.  Where  did  he  come  from  ? — A.  La  Grange,  North  Carolina,  I 
think. 

Q.  What  are  his  politics  ? — A.  He  came  into  my  office  one  evening  and 
said,  “Are  you  the  sheriff  of  the  county  ?  ”  And  I  said,  “  Yes.”  And  he 
said,  “  I  want  to  ask  you  some  questions  with  reference  to  those  negroes 
coming  from  our  country  up  here,”  and  said  he  had  been  over  to  the 
Banner  office,  and  also  said,  “  I  do  not  want  to  deceive  you  ;  I  am  a  Re¬ 
publican.”  I  felt  a  little  suspicious  about  talking  to  him,  and  I  simply 


170 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


told  him  the  facts,  as  I  understood  them,  that  there  was  no  demand  in 
our  county  for  labor;  that  a  great  many  of  our  people  were  out  of  em¬ 
ployment,  and  a  great  many  were  just  living  from  hand  to  mouth  and 
almost  starving.  I  told  him  that  I  had  frequently  of  an  evening  let  6, 
S,  or  10  men  go  into  the  jail  to  keep  them  from  freezing  ;  that  they  were 
traveling  through  the  place,  going  about  and  looking  for  work.  We 
have  not  had  so  many  this  winter,  as  it  has  been  quite  mild.  I  gave 
him  the  situation.  He  said  he  had  seen  several  of  his  hands  who  had 
left  him,  and  he  said  they  were  anxious  to  go  back,  and  said,  ‘‘  I  have  had 
a  mind  to  come  and  take  every  one  of  them  back  that  left  me.’7  He 
seemed  to  have  a  plantation  down  there  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  Did  he  take  any  ? — A.  He  took  one.  I  went  out  to  the  plantation 
with  him  after  him. 

Q.  These  were  women  or  men  ? — A.  They  were  men. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  got  reduced  rates  to  bring  them  back? — 
A.  I  do  not  know,  sir.  1  got  a  letter  from  a  party  in  Carolina,  asking 
just  what  amount  of  money  it  would  take  to  bring  them  back.  He  told 
me  where  he  was  to  be  found,  and  I  knew  him  and  where  he  was  located. 
I  went  to  the  railroad,  and  they  said  the  lowest  rate — 1  did  not  go  my¬ 
self,  but  I  sent  Mr.  Allen — was  $20  from  Greencastle  to  this  point.  I 
said,  u  How  is  this;  that  it  is  only  $16  from  Indianapolis  and  $20  from 
there  ?  ”  And  they  said  it  was  because  of  the  local  rate. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  pay  coming  here  ! — A.  I  paid  $16  from  Indian¬ 
apolis. 

Q.  What  was  the  rate  from  Greencastle? — A.  Twenty  dollars.  I 
could  not  get  a  low  rate  for  them  t'o  the  points  where  they  wanted  to 
go.  ,  . 

Q.  How  many  of  these  people  have  gone  back? — A.  A  number  of 
them  from  our  county.  There  was  one  from  the  northern  part  of  the 
county,  in  Russellville  Township;  he  started  to  walk,  and  Mr.  Allen 
saw  him  nearly  to  Indianapolis. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  a  letter  from  Mr.  Wootten  or  the  Messrs.  Woot- 
ten  Brothers? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  I  do  not  know  the  contents  of  it. 

Q.  Were  there  any  of  their  employes  who  had  left  and  gone  up  there 
in  that  county  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  any  of  them  come  back  ? — A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Did  you  see  anybody  about  their  coming  back  ? — A.  1  do  not  know 
myself  about  that.  Mr.  Allen  saw  them,  I  think. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  their  health  ?  Are  they  not  all  huddled  up 
there  in  very  close  quarters  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  there  have  been  four  or  five 
deaths  in  our  town  among  these  people;  three  children  and  one  woman, 
aud  I  heard  there  was  a  man  at  Dr.  Crow’s  who  was  likely  to  die  when 
I  left. 

Q.  You  say  that  Dr.  Stevenson,  who  was  a  prominent  man  in  the 
county,  and  at  one  time  a  candidate  for  lieutenant  governor  on  the  Re¬ 
publican  ticket,  has  employed  some  of  these  people ;  how  many  did  he 
have  ? — A.  He  had  24,  as  I  understood  it. 

Q.  How  many  did  the  Crows  have,? — A.  They  had  several  families,  5 
or  6. 

Q.  Who  was  this — which  oiie  of  the  Crows  ? — A.  It  was  Joe. 

Q.  What  are  Joe’s  politics  ? — A.  He  is  a  ward  politician. 

Q.  What  are  his  politics  ? — A.  Republican. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  person  not  a  Republican  who  has  taken  any 
of  these  people  to  their  places? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  of  any.  I  have 
the  names  of  some  50  or  60,  and  every  one  is  a  Republican  except 
Bridges.  He  has  been  a  Democrat,  and  went  off  on  this  greenback  idea, 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


171 


and  is  now,  I  think,  up  for  nomination  as  trustee  on  the  Republican 
ticket  in  his  township.  He  has  been  a  Democrat,  but  I  think  has  now 
entirely  left  the  Democratic  party.  He  is  much  of  a  gentleman,  never¬ 
theless. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  white  men  being  discharged  to  make  room 
for  these  negroes  ? — A.  Only  this  :  Ou  Dr.  Stevenson's  place  is  a  Mr. 
Welcker,  who  is  very  much  of  a  gentleman,  and  who  had  been  up  to 
Bainbridge  and  made  an  arrangement  with  Mr.  O'Hara  for  a  house  oh 
the  gravel  road  to  live  in,  and  when  he  went  after  it  to  occupy  it  he 
found  that  they  had  let  two  negroes  have  it. 

Q.  You  think,  taking  the  average,  that  these  negroes  have  not  made 
more  than  25  cents  a  day  since  they  have  been  in  Indiana? — A.  No,  sir, 
I  think  not.  Some  of  them  may  have  made  more,  but  I  have  had  a  good 
deal  of  information  about  them,  and  I  do  not  think  that  they  have  made 
on  an  average  25  cents  a  day. 

Q.  Did  you  make  the  acquaintance  of  Heath  when  he  was  out  there  ? 
— A.  No,  sir  j  but  I  met  him  when  he  came  there. 

Q.  Where  at? — A.  At  the  Vandalia  depot;  one  night  at  the  South 
depot. 

Q.  At  Greencastle ? — A.  At  Greencastle,  sir.  General  Manson,  audi¬ 
tor  of  the  State,  sent  word  to  me  that  there  would  be  a  colored  man 
there  that  night  or  in  the  morning,  who  was  the  advance  agent  looking 
out  places  to  locate  colored  people,  and  I  went  down  there  to  the  depot 
that  night,  and  when  he  got  off  the  train  I  had  a  talk  with  him.  He 
told  me  where  he  was  from,  and  said  he  had  been  here  to  Washington 
and  stopped  here  awhile,  1  believe  two  weeks,  with  a  gentleman  of  the 
name  of  Adams,  1338  Y  street,  northwest.  He  said  he  had  been  there 
as  much  as  two  weeks,  and  bad  been  at  Indianapolis  three  or  four  days  ; 
maybe  more.  I  gave  him  to  understand  that  I  was  in  favor  of  the  exo¬ 
dus.  1  do  not  know  that  that  was  strictly  right,  but  I  did  that.  I  am 
frank  to  say  that  I  told  him  I  was  sympathizing  with  him  very  much. 
He  said  they  expected  to  have  enough  darkies  in  the  State  by  the  1st 
of  May  to  carry  the  State  for  the  Republican  party.  He  said  that  one 
of  their  objects  was  to  get  them  from  North  Carolina  before  the  1st  of 
May  to  lessen  the  Republican  vote  there  and  increase  it  in  our  State. 
He  did  not  hesitate  to  talk  about  it,  and  to  say  that  it  was  a  political 
movement. 

Q.  Whv  did  thev  want  them  there  bv  the  1st  of  May  ? — A.  His  idea 
was  that  it  should  be  before  the  1st  of  May,  and  before  the  census  was 
taken. 

Q.  Was  anything  said  about  its  bearing  on  the  vote  in  Indiana  ? — A. 
He  said  that  Adams  and  the  parties  he  had  been  with  here  said  they 
would  have  enough  to  go  to  Indiana  to  carry  the  State,  but  that  they 
could  not  pay  their  way.  I  said,  why  is  it  that  you  do  not  pay  your 
own  way?  Cannot  you  get  here  without  your  way  being  paid  ?  And 
he  said  they  could  not ;  that  those  who  had  horses  would  not  leave  them, 
and  did  not  want  to  come  away;  that  it  was  only  those  whose  wrav 
would  be  paid  that  could  be  gotten  to  come.  By  the  way  he  said,  too, 
that  he  went  from  here  to  Indianapolis  iu  the  mail  car. 

Q.  Did  he  go  from  Indianapolis  to  Greencastle  in  the  mail  car  ? — A. 
I  think  he  did. 

Q.  Did  you  see  him  get  out  of  it? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not,  but  I  think 
he  told  me  he  had  got  out  of  it. 

On  motion,  at  this  point  the  committee  stood  adjourned  to  Saturday, 
January  31,  1880,  at  ten  o’clock  a.  m. 


172 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


SEVENTH  DAY. 

Washington,  Saturday,  January  31,  18S0> 

The  committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment. 

Present,  the  chairman  and  all  the  members  of  the  committee. 

TESTIMONY  OF  M.  T.  LEW  MAN,  RESUMED. 

M.  T.  Lewman,  testimony  of  yesterday  resumed. 

Bv  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  When  we  adjourned  yesterday  you  were  speaking  of  an  in¬ 
terview  with  a  colored  man  of  the  name  of  Heath,  and  1  think  you  re¬ 
marked  that  you  thought  he  came  there  in  the  mail  car  on  the  railroad  ? 
— A.  I  think  so  ;  he  told  me  he  did.  I  told  you  that  I  did  not  see  him 
get  out  of  the  mail  car  myself. 

Q.  Who  is  the  mail  agent  on  that  road  ? — A.  I  do  not  think  I  can  an¬ 
swer  as  to  that  road. 

Q.  What  road  was  it  on  ? — A.  The  Vandal ia. 

Q.  Did  he  give  you  any  reason  why  he  traveled  on  the  mail  car  ? — A. 
I  do  not  know  that  I  can  state  that  he  did. 

Q.  How  did  he  come  to  tell  you  about  it  ? — A.  He  was  speaking  of 
how  kind  they  were  to  him  ;  and  speaking  in  the  same  connection,  I 
think  he  said  he  went  over  from  here  to  Indianapolis  in  the  mail  car. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  whether  he  paid  his  fare  while  traveling  in  the 
mail  car  f — A.  He  said  he  did  not ;  that  is  my  impression. 

Q.  He  was  carried  through  as  mail  matter,  then  ? — A.  He  simply  said 
that  he  came  over  in  the  mail  car. 

Q.  And  traveled  free  ? — A.  He  told  me  he  traveled  free. 

Q.  Did  he  not  tell  you  that  anybody  franked  him  or  deadheaded  him 
over  the  road  ? — A.  He  told  me  he  came  free,  but  I  do  not  remember  his 
exact  language. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  that  he  came  free  from  Washington? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  had  the  accommodations  of  the  mail  car  ? — A.  I  do  not  know 
that  he  said  anything  of  accommodations  ;  he  said  he  met  a  gentleman 
in  Indianapolis  named  -Reynolds. 

Q.  That  is  a  violation  of  law,  is  it  not,  to  ride  in  the  mail  car  ? — A.  I 
do  not  know,  sir;  I  am  not  posted  on  that. 

Q.  Where  is  that  man  Heath,  now  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  he  stay  in  and  about  Greencastle? — A.  I  under¬ 
stood  until  next  morning  at  9  o’clock ;  I  saw  him  no  more  that  evening. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  went  ?■ — A.  The  last  1  saw  of  him  was  at  a 
hotel  in  the  north  end  of  the  town. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  went  when  he  left  Greeucastle  % — A.  My 
impression  is  that  he  went  to  Kansas,  from  what  a  gentleman  there 
told  me,  a  Mr.  Goodrich. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  came  back  ? — A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  his  leaving  a  written  statement  on  this  sub¬ 
ject  at  Indianapolis  ? — A.  I  never  saw  it. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  he  made  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  it  is  in  existence  from  information  ? — A. 
The  gentleman  with  whom  the  paper  was  left,  Mr.  Baker,  I  understand, 
has  it  yet. 

Q.  What  Baker  is  that  ? — A.  Mr.  James  E.  Baker. 

Q.  What  wras  the  appearance  of  this  man  Heath  ?  Was  he  a  full- 
blooded  colored  man  ? — A.  He  was  a  dark  mulatto,  but  not  a  coal-black 
man. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


173 


Q.  What  degree  of  intelligence  did  lie  manifest? — A.  Nothing  extra. 

Q.  Yrou  may  repeat,  as  yon  did  last  evening,  what  was  said  of  the 
purposes  of  this  movement,  so  far  as  Indiana  was  concerned. — A.  He 
told  me  that  his  first  object  was  to  get  to  Kansas ;  it  is  a  matter  I  have 
not  thought  much  about  since,  as  it  was  long  before  this  committee  was 
in  existence  or  thought  of;  but  he  said  that  his  intention  when  he  left 
home  was  to  go  to  Kansas,  but  said  he  was  sent  out  by  friends  at  home 
to  look  out  homes  for  them,  and  he  came  to  Washington  and  remained 
one  or  two  weeks,  and  gave  the  names  of  the  parties  with  whom  he 
staid. 


Q.  One  was  the  man  named  Adams? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  said  they 
treated  him  kindly  and  asked  him  to  stop  at  Indianapolis;  and  he  said 
he  had  letters  to  Mr.  Martindaie;  I  am  not  positive  as  to  whether  he  said 
lie  had  any  letters  to  Holloway,  but  I  am  certain  as  to  Martindaie;  he  said 
he  staid  there  several  days,  and  they  asked  him  to  come  to  Green* 
•castle,  and  that  he  would  find  better  accommodations  down  there  in 
Putnam  County  than  he  could  find  in  Kansas ;  he  asked  me  about  the 
county  and  chances  for  their  getting  labor,  and  I  asked  him  why  they 
wanted  to  leave  North  Carolina;  lie  said  one  reason  was  to  better  their 
condition,  and  another,  he  said,  was  that  their  friends  here,  Adams  and 
others,  desired  as  many  as  possible  of  them  to  get  out  of  North  Carolina 
and  into  Indiana  before  the  census  was  taken,  so  as  to  decrease  the  rep¬ 
resentation  in  North  Carolina,  and  increase  it  in  Indiana;  this  was  the 
substance  of  his  language. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  how  many  it  was  contemplated  to  transfer  in  this 
way  by  the  1st  of  May  ? — A.  I  think  he  did,  but  I  cannot  say  how  many 
it  was. 


Q.  Give  the  best  impression  on  your  mind,  if  you  have  one? — A.  I 
think  it  was  fully  as  much  as  10,000,  but  I  am  not  positive. 

Q.  He  talked  to  you  freely,  supposing  you  to  be  a  Republican? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  that  is  true. 

Q.  Did  he  state  who  those  letters  were  from  recommending  him  to 
Martindaie  and  Holloway  ? — A.  I  think  he  only  called  one  name  here, 
and  that  was  Adams.  If  there  was  any  other  in  Washington  City,  I  do 
not  remember  it. 

Q.  Were  you  aware  at  that  time  that  Adams  was  secretary  of  the 
Emigrant  Aid  Society? — A.  No,  sir;  I  was  not. 

Q.  Did  this  man  say  anything  at  the  time  as  to  what  Judge  Martin - 
dale  and  Holloway  said  to  him  about  goingthere  to  Indiana,  and  about 
raising  monev  for  them  ? — A.  I  am  not  certain  whether  the  conversation 
was  as  to  Holloway  or  not,  but  he  said  they  proposed  to  pay  half  of 
their  way.  That  was  what  he  said  in  the  conversation  with  me. 

Q.  This  was  all  in  the  said  conversation  ? — A.  I  never  had  but  one 
with  him. 

Q.  Judge  Martindaie  is  proprietor  of  the  Indianapolis  Journal,  the 
leading  Republican  paper  in  the  State? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Holloway  is  postmaster  at  Indianapolis? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  is. 

Q.  And  is  a  leading  and  prominent  Republican  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Lewman.  have  you  ever  seen  any  Republican  newspaper  pub¬ 
lished  in  Indiana  condemning  this  emigration  of  North  Carolina  negroes 
to  our  State? — A.  I  do  not  recollect  of  seeing  one. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  that  they  failed  to  condemn  this  committee 
for  investigating  the  reasons  why  they  left  North  Carolina  for  Indiana  ? 
—A.  Ido  not  know  that  I  have.  I  think  they  all  of  them  go  for  you 
and  the  committee. 


174 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  What  is  the  tone  and  position  of  the  Greeucastle  Banner  on  this 
subject? — A.  It  has  been  opposing  the  investigation  all  the  time. 

Q.  Now,  sir,  I  want  you  to  state  the  manner  in  which  that  lot  of  50 
or  60  negroes  came  to  Greeucastle  !  What  citizens  of  the  town  went  to 
see  them,  to  meet  them,  and  marched  up  to  town  with  them  ? — A.  1  did 
not  see  them  myself,  but  I  understood  that  word  was  brought  that  they 
were  on  the  road.  I  had  it  from  Mr.  Thomas  Hanna,  an  attorney  of  our 
town,  and  who  is  ex  chairman  of  the  Republican  county  central  com¬ 
mittee.  He  was  chairman  some  time,  but  has  been  succeeded  by  another 
gentleman. 

Q.  What  office  is  he  a  candidate  for  now’  oh  the  Republican  State 
ticket? — A.  For  the  nomination  of  lieutenant-governor,  I  believe,  in 
conversation  with  him — and  I  heard  others  state  it — lie  stated  to  me 
this — that  is,  in  speaking  about  the  first  batch;  I  stated  yesterday  that 
it  was  56;  I  believe  it  was  sixty-odd — that  batch  of  fifty-odd  or  sixty- 
odd,  Mr.  Hanna  telegraphed  to  Mr.  Langsdale  to  come  to  Indianapolis 
to  make  arrangements  for  them.  Mr.  Langsdale  did  not  get  the  dis¬ 
patch  in  time  to  go  on  the  Vaudalia  train,  and  he  took  the  northern 
road,  and  when  he  got  to  Indianapolis  I  understood  that  arrangements 
were  already  made  to  get  them  to  Greeucastle.  1  do  not  know  what 
amount  was  arranged  for,  but  Air.  Hanna  said  the  money  was  arranged 
for,  and  Langsdale  came  down  to  Greeucastle  with  them,  aud  when  they 
got  off*  at  the  south  depot,  as  wTe  call  it,  Mr.  Langsdale  aud  Mr.  Clay, 
pastor  of  the  church  there,  marched  them  up  to  the  church  and  quar¬ 
tered  them  there. 

Q.  You  say  they  marched  them  up;  do  you  mean  that  Langsdale 
marched  up  with  them  ? — A.  As  I  understand  from  those  who  saw  him, 
he  marched  at  the  head  of  the  procession. 

Q.  Were  they  on  foot? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  far  is  it  from  the  depot  to  the  church  ? — A.  Fully  half  a 
mile. 

Q.  Where  is  the  church  located? — A.  It  is  near  the  college. 

Q.  And  your  understanding  is  that  Langsdale  marched  up  at  the  head 
of  them  ? — A.  1  heard  a  uurnber  say  so,  but  I  did  not  see  that. 

Q.  Were  they  put  into  the  Methodist  church  ? — A.  They  were,  sir. 

Q.  And  remained  there  all  the  time,  did  they  not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  any  of  them  there  now? — A.  Not  of  the  first  squad,  I 
reckon. 

Q.  But  any,  I  mean  ? — A.  No,  I  think  not;  I  think  there  are  none  in 
the  church  nowy  nor  when  I  left  home,  but  there  were  a  good  many  about 
town. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  20  of  these  emigrates  being  in  a  room  not  as  large  as 
this  ;  do  you  know’  of  any  others  in  the  same  condition  ? — A.  Not  to  my 
personal  knowledge  ;  others  know  that  better  than  I  do.  I  have  heard 
of  it,  but  don’t  know  it. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  Mr.  Lewman,  you  say  you  are  a  resident  of  Greeucastle  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  a  resident  there  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  believe 
X  have  been  there  14  years,  a  little  over  that  permanently. 

Q.  What  is  the  population  of  that  county  ? — A.  What  is  the  county  ? 

Q.  Putnam.  What  is  the  population  of  Putnam  County  ? — A.  The 
last  census  was  23,000,  I  think,  along  there  somewhere. 

Q.  Then  it  is  about  23,000? — A.  Yes,  sir;  about  that. 

Q.  What  is  size  of  the  county  of  Putnam  ? — A.  It  is  longer  north  and 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


175 


south  than  it  is  east  and  west ;  it  is  perhaps  30  miles  long  and  about 
17  or  IS  wide.  I  do  not  know  it  exactly  without  making  a  calculation, 
i  may  be  mistaken  about  the  width  of  it. 

Q.  How  many  square  miles  would  that  be  ? — A.  I  never  made  a  calcu¬ 
lation  of  that,  and  without  figuring  it  I  would  not  say. 

Q.  That  would  be  510  square  miles,  if  you  have  it  right? — A.  Yes,  sir. 
1  suppose  so,  but  it  is  a  matter  I  never  figured  over  at  all. 

Q.  That  would  be  326,400  acres  5  it  is  all  good  land  ? — A.  No,  sir:  not 
all  of  it. 

Q.  What  proportion  is  ? — A.  I  suppose  three-fourths  is  what  we  call 
good  land  ;  then  there  is  some  hilly  land  in  the  southeast  aud  south¬ 
western  parts. 

Q.  Is  that  portion  settled? — A.  The  hilly  portion,  yes,  sir;  it  is  all 
settled  ;  the  best  part  of  our  county  is  the  north,  northwestern,  and  west 
and  east  portions. 

Q.  Is  all  the  county  settled  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  all  improved? — A.  Well,  sir,  there  are  some  bodies  of  laud 
that  are  not  under  cultivation;  there  is  a  good  deal  that  is  in  timber. 

Q.  What  portion  of  the  county  is  under  cultivation  ? — A.  I  cannot 
tell  you  exactly,  but  I  should  think  one-fourth  is  under  cultivation ;  a 
great  deal  of  the  land  there  is  in  timber  and  in  grass. 

Q.  What  is  the  principal  product  of  the  county  ? — A  It  is  termed  the 
u  stock  county  ”  more  than  anything  else,  but  we  raise  corn,  wheat, 
grass,  and  hay. 

Q.  Do  you  require  a  great  deal  of  corn  for  your  stock  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
but  it  is  not  unusual  to  buy  corn  from  Illinois,  but  that  is  not  so  this 
year  ;  there  is  a  good  deal  of  wheat  sown  this  year,  two  or  three  times 
more  than  I  ever  saw  before. 

Q.  Yrou  say  there  are  four  or  five  thousand  population  in  (Treencastle  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir  ;  in  that  neighborhood  ;  our  men  claim  more  than  that,  but 
I  don’t  think  there  are  more;  I  don’t  know  what  the  last  census  of  the 
county  was. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  towns  and  villages  in  the  county  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Please  name  them. — A.  There  is  Bainbridge. 

Q.  What  is  its  population? — A.  I  suppose  something  from  1,000  to 
500. 

Q.  Which  would  you  £ay? — A.  500  to  800  I  could  say. 

Q.  Name  the  next. — A.  Cioverdale. 

Q.  What  is  its  population  ? — A.  Not  over  500. 

Q.  What  is  next  ? — A.  Beelsville. 

Q.  How  many  are  there  ? — A.  A  couple  of  hundred. 

Q.  Are  there  any  others  ? — A.  Fillmore. 

Q.  How  many  are  there? — A.  The  same  number,  about  200,  maybe 
300  and  a  few  more. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  towns  ? — A.  There  are  some  small  places,  very 
small  post-offices,  &c. 

Q.  What  are  the  people  in  these  towns  mostly  engaged  in  ? — A.  They 
are  merchants,  blacksmiths,  carpenters,  and  laboring  men. 

Q.  Are  none  of  them  farming? — A.  Some  of  them  live  in  town  and 
farm  outside. 

Q.  Are  they  mostly  railroad  towns? — A.  Bainbridge,  Beelsville, 
Cioverdale,  and  Fillmore  are. 

Q.  You  are  very  much  crowded  there  in  your  State  and  county? — 
A.  I  don’t  say  it  is  crowded. 

Q.  You  said  there  were  a  great  many  people  without  employment  ! — 


176 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


A.  Bat  I  stated  we  have  three  seasons  when  there  is  a  demand  for 
labor. 

Q.  What  are  they  ? — A.  The  planting,  harvesting’,  and  corn-gathering 
seasons. 

Q.  That  would  take  up  nearly  all  the  summer,  would  it  not  ? — A.  No, 
sir;  we  don’t  take  all  the  summer  to  raise  a  crop  of  corn  out  there. 

Q.  What  do  they  do  in  the  spring  time? — A.  They  are  planting  corn. 

Q.  Then  there  is  the  tending  of  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  not  that  take  pretty  much  all  the  season  ? — A.  The  corn 
planting  and  tending  and  harvesting  run  up  to  August;  then  October 
and  November  they  are  gathering  corn  ;  there  is  not  so  much  demand 
for  labor  after. 

Q.  Is  there  no  demand  for  persons  to  take  care  of  stock  in  winter  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  some. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  being  overcrowded  ? — A.  My  judgment  is 
and  I  am  confident  that  we  have  no  demand,  certainly  no  extra  demand, 
for  labor  at  this  time. 

Q.  There  is  no  demand  for  laboring  people  in  your  county  ? — A.  No, 
sir ;  I  say  we  have  enough  permanent  citizens  who  are  able  to  do  all  the 
work  and  still  leave  others  idle. 

Q.  You  don’t  want  any  more  emigrants  in  your  county  ? — A.  No,  sir; 
I  won’t  say  that. 

Q.  If  you  are  overcrowded  and  in  a  smothering  condition  we  want  to 
advertise  that  to  the  world  ? — A.  I  say  I  don’t  think  we  need  any  more 
laboring  emigrants  there. 

Q.  Does  the  Democracy  want  emigrants  to  come  there  or  do  they  want 
to  keep  them  away  ? — A.  I  don’t  think  that  is  the  feeling  of  the  Demo¬ 
cratic  party. 

Q.  Do  they  want  them  to  come  there  ? — A.  I  think  they  do  if  they 
come  as  regular  citizens. 

Q.  Then  you  want  these  colored  people  to  come  there  if  they  come  in 
that  way  ? — A.-  Let  me  explain  to  you ;  the  trouble  seems  to  be  that 
there  are  people — or  at  least  a  dissatisfaction  seems  to  be  because  they 
are  shipping  these  people  there  by  the  car  load,  and  dump  them  down 
upon  our  people,  when  they  are  not  able  to  support  themselves.  There 
is  no  objections  to  negroes  coming  there  from  the  Southern  States  if 
they  come  as  other  people,  with  means  to  support  themselves,  and  do 
not  become  a  public  burden. 

Q.  It  is  this  immense  number  that  you  object  to  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  the 
feeling  has  been  excited  by  that. 

Q.  It  is  intense  there,  is  it  not  ? — A.  I  cannot  say  it  is. 

Q.  It  is  strong  then  ? — A.  There  is  a  good  deal  of  it. 

Q.  When  did  this  dumping  begin ? — A.  I  think  the  latter  part  of  Sep¬ 
tember,  or  it  may  have  been  in  October. 

Q.  October,  November,  December,  and  January,  four  months;  now  it 
was  October  when  it  began  ;  they  have  been  dumping  them  in  there  by 
the  carload  since  October? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  when  did  they  dump  them  ? — A.  The  first  lot  that  came  there 
were  fifty  or  sixty;  then  there  was  forty,  and  they  have  been  coming  in 
as  low  down  as  fifteen. 

Q.  This  immense  number  that  have  been  dumped  in  there,  ak  you  say, 
by  the  car  load  is  250  all  told  ? — A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  And  this  you  think  an  immense  number  to  come  in  there  in  four 
months  ? — A.  But  it  has  created  a  good  deal  of  excitement,  and  I  think 
it  is  a  large  number  to  come  into  a  county  in  so  short  a  time. 

Q.  I  see  by  the  newspapers  that  a  great  number  of  Irish  people  are 


177 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


likely  to  come  to  this  country  in  a  destitute  condition  ;  do  you  object  to 
them  coming  to  Indiana! — A.  I  think  that  would  be  like  the  others;  if 
they  come  there  as  others  do  I  think  we  would  not  object  to  it,  but  if 
they  come  as  these  negroes  I  think  they  would  be  treated  the  same  as 
they  are. 

Q.  Even  if  contributions  taken  up  are  used  to  help  them! — A.  No, 
sir;  I  don’t  think  they  are  similar  cases.  I  don’t  think  I  would  object 
to  them,  as  it  is  an  act  of  charity. 

Q.  Then  it  is  an  act  of  charity  to  the  Irishman  and  uot  to  the  negro  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  is  an  act  of  charity  to  the  negro,  too. 

Q.  Then  why  do  you  make  a  distinction  ? — A.  Because  I  understand 
they  are  not  bettered  by  coming  there  to  Indiana. 

Q.  Do  >ou  think  the  Irishman  would  be  bettered  by  coming  there! — 
A.  If  the.y  are  starving  over  there  in  Ireland,  it  would  be  an  act  of 
charity  for  them  to  come  to  this  country  where  they  could  get  relief. 

Q.  But  you  have  nothing  for  them  to  do  in  your  county. — A.  No,  sir  ; 
we  have  nothing  for  them  to  do  at  this  time. 

Q.  As  I  understand  you,  you  have  no  work  for  them  in  Indiana! — A. 
No,  sir;  if  they  wish  work  they  should  go  somewhere  else. 

Q,  Then  you  would  say  to  them  ro  keep  out  of  Indiana! — A.  I  think 
there  are  better  places  for  them.  I  am  candid  when  I  say  to  this  com¬ 
mittee  that  I  do  not  think  there  is  a  demand  for  labor  in  Indiana  at  this 
time.  i 


By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  You  mean  at  this  season  of  the  year! — A.  Yes,  sir;  principally. 
I  stated  awhile  ago  that  there  was,  during  the  winter,  a  fair  demand  for 
mechanics  in  our  town. 


By  Senator  Windom  : 

«/ 

Q.  Then,  Mr.  Lewman,  when  we  say  that  America  is  the  laud  of  the 
free  and  the  home  of  the  brave,  and  an  asylum  for  the  oppressed,  we 
must  say  with  Indiana  excepted  ! — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  say  so. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  no  work  there  for  people  coming  into  the  State  ? 
—  A.  No,  sir;  there  is  no  work  at  this  time. 

Q.  Will  you  then  advise  this  committee  to  say  to  the  world,  to  these 
people  coming  here  from  whatever  point,  that  they  should  keep  out  of 
Indiana? — A.  No,  sir;  I  would  not  think  of  advising  this  honorable 
committee  as  to  what  it  should  do.  1  do  not  state  that  we  are  over¬ 
stocked  in  Indiana,  but  I  do  say  that  there  is  no  demand  for  labor  there 
now.  I  say  there  are  times  in  tiie  year  when  there  is  a  demand  for 
labor. 

Q.  Do  not  you  think  that  if  there  is  no  demand  for  labor,  and  no 
work  for  people  to  do  going  there,  that  they  had  better  keep  out  of  the 
State  ? — A.  No,  sir;  but  I  do  not  know  that  I  can  explain  it  any  better 
than  I  have  done. 

Q.  Your  conclusion  is  that  there  is  no  demand  for  labor  there,  and 
that  people  emigrating  had  better  keep  out  of  Indiana? — A.  I  think  I 
have  stated  the  fact  that  there  is  no  demand  for  labor  there. 

Q.  Then  you  would  say  to  people  emigrating  to  the  West  that  they 
had  better  keep  out  of  your  State? — A.  That  is  true,  sir;  if  they  want 
work  and  are  destitute  in  their  condition  now. 

Q.  You  said,  1  believe,  that  a  great  many  of  these  people  wanted  to 
go  back  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  that  a  great  many  of  them  want  to  get 
back,  but  I  said  a  number  of  them  did,  and  1  say  so  .yet;  there  are  i 
number  there  who  want  to  go  back  to  North  Carolina.  This  gentleman 
from  North  Carolina,  whom  1  spoke  about  awhile  ago,  stated  that  all  he 

II!  EX 


178 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


bad  seen  from  his  place  wanted  him  to  take  them  back;  and  all  I  have 
talked  to  myself,  probably  two  dozen,  said  they  would  be  glad  to  go 
back,  of  intended  to  go  back  as  soon  as  they  got  the  means  to  go  on. 

Q.  How  many  have  you  talked  to  on  the  subject  ? — A.  I  think  prob¬ 
ably  two  dozen.  I  do  not  recollect  of  one  that  I  talked  to  who  did  not 
want  to  go  back. 

Q.  What  reason  did  they  assign  for  wanting  to  go  back  ? — A.  They 
said  that  they  could  do  better  in  North  Carolina  than  there. 

Q.  I  suppose  you  have  heard  of  no  threats  and  mobs  and  violence  to 
keep  people  from  hiring  these  emigrants? — A-  There  was  some  talk  of 
that  kind  in  the  northwest  corner  of  our  county. 

Q.  Was  anything  done  of  that  kind  ? — A.  There  was  something  of 
the  sort,  some  talk,  but  1  think  no  more,  except  that  two  houses  were 
burned  there  in  Russellville  Township,  one  of  the  largest  townships  in 


the  county. 

Q.  Was  there  anybody  in  either  one  of  those  houses  when  they  were 
burned? — A.  No,  sir;  not  at  the  time.  One  of  them  was  owned  by  Mr. 
Wilson,  who  is  a  Republican,  and  the  township  itself  is  a  very  strong 
Rep  u  b  1  i  ca  i j  township. 

Q.  Were  there  any  negroes  on  his  place  ? — A.  I  think  he  had  arranged 
with  them  to  come  in  there,  and  the  house  was  burned  several  days  af¬ 
terwards. 


Q.  Was  there  any  understanding  as  to  whether  that  had  anything  to 
do  with  the  burning? — A.  1  made  some  inquiry  about  it,  and  there  are 
facts  in  connection  with  it  that  I  would  rather  not  state.  I  should  not 
like  to  say  anything  definite  now  about  the  burning  of  the  house,  as  we 
want  to  get  at  the  fact  of  who  the  house  was  burned  by.  I  do  not  think, 
though,  there  are  any  Democrats  living  within  a  mile  or  two  of  the 
house. 


Q.  They  were  living  near  enough  to  get  there  if  they  wanted  to,  were 
they  not? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  might  have  burned  it,  I  suppose.  I  was 
not  claiming  that  the  Democrats  out  there  in  Indiana  are  saints. 

Q.  I  had  no  such  impression. — A.  We  have  as  good  Democrats  as 
Republicans,  and  as  good  Republicans  as  Democrats  there. 

Q.  What  were  the  politics  of  these  people  who  were  making  the 
threats  to  burn  the  houses?  Did  you  hear  of  any  Republicans  engaged 
in  that? — A.  Only  through  others,  I  have  heard  that  the  laboring 
Republicans  in  that  township  threatened  to  do  it. 

Q.  What  about  the  other  house  ?  Had  that  man  anything  to  do  with 
hiring  these  negroes? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  a  Republican? — A.  No,  sir;  he  was  a  Democrat. 

Q.  Did  he  have  any  connection  with  this  emigrant  business? — A. 
No,  sir;  I  have  heard  it  said  why  the  house  was  burned,  but  that  is  all. 
I  do  not  know  anything  about  it. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  the  threats  about  which  you  testified  ? — 
A.  Well,  sir,  we  have  men  there  who  are  reckless,  Democrats  and  Repub¬ 
licans  alike,  and  I  have  heard  threats  from  both  sides.  They  are  men 
of  a  low  class  generally,  and  I  paid  no  attention  to  what  they  said. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  read  any  Democratic  newspapers  in  which  such  a 
thing  was  hinted  at? — A.  I  think  1  have,  some  little  sketches. 

Q.  So  it  was  not  a  low  class  of  people  that  made  these  threats,  but 
some  good  people  were  concerned  in  them? — A.  I  think  I  have  heard 
of  such  a  thing. 

Q.  How  far  is  Shelbyville  from  Greencastle  ? — A.  It  is  75  miles  from 
our  place. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  that  mob  that  was  reported  down  there  ? — 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


179 


A.  1  do  not  know  anything  except  what  was  if)  the  papers.  J  do  not 
know  that  I  have  talked  with  any  gentlemen  about  it. 

Q.  You  said  yesterday  that  you  did  not  know  of  any  person,  save  one, 
who  had  employed  any  of  these  people  who  are  not  Republicans! — A. 
Yes,  sir;  1  mean  the  new  ones.  The  resident  colored  men  are  em¬ 
ployed  there  by  our  people  indifferently. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  that  man  was  a  Democrat,  but  is 
pretty  nearly  a  Republican  now  ? — A.  He  used  to  be  a  Democrat,  and 
he  went  off'  with  the  Greenback  party,  and  I  understand  is  now  a  can¬ 
didate  for  nomination  as  trustee  on  the  Republican  ticket. 

Q.  From  the  character  of  your  people  there,  as  you  know  them  from 
being  their  sheriff,  what  do  you  think  would  be  the  effect  of  threats  of 
violence  and  these  house  burnings  and  mobs  on  the  demand  generally 
for  colored  labor  ? — A.  We  have  had  no  such  general  threats  and  mobs 
in  our  county. 

Q.  It  was  understood,  was  it  not,  in  the  county  that  the  house  was 
burned  for  that  reason! — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  I  will  say  that  two  or  three 
colored  men  left  the  county  on  that  account. 

Q.  Would  not  such  threats  and  the  general  understanding  that  houses 
were  being  burned  that  were  prepared  for  colored  emigrants  have  a 
natural  tendency  among  the  people  to  discourage  them  from  employing 
these  emigrants! — A.  I  think  probably  it  would. 

Mr.  Windom.  It  would  in  most  countries,  I  think. 

The  Witness.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion  as  to  that  now! — A.  I  think  I  assented  to 
your  proposition.  I  think  certainly  it  would  have  that  tendency. 

Q.  And  it  would  rather  have  a  tendency  to  make  some  of  these  people 
want  to  go  back  home! — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  it  would,  but  do  not  un¬ 
derstand,  Senator,  that  that  condition  of  things  as  you  put  it  is  the  case 
in  our  county. 

Q.  You  stated  that  they  burnt  one  house  a  day  or  two  after  a  man 
rented  it  to  a  colored  man  ;  that  was  in  your  county  was  it  nut  !-»— A. 
Yes,  sir;  but  all  that  excitement  has  subsided  now. 

Q.  And  you  have  seen  the  same  sort  of  suggestions  in  the  newspapers! 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  heard  these  threats  from  the  lower  classes  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  think  all  these  things  would  have  a  tendency  to  discour¬ 
age  the  demand  for  their  labor  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Youjsay  that  Williams  wanted  the  court-house  to  hold  a  meeting 
so  that  these  people  could  state  why  they  were  coming  to  Indiana,  and 
you  would  not  let  them  have  it  because  you  did  not  think  it  was  neces¬ 
sary  ! — A.  That  was  one  cause,  sir.  Then  we  have  a  county  board  of 
three  commissioners,  and  they  have  instructed  me  only  to  let  parties 
have  the  use  of  it  on  public  occasions,  and  then  only  to  residents  of  the 
county.  I  did  not  think  that  Williams  was  a  resident  of  the  county, 
and  he  is  not  now. 

Q.  Certainly  that  was  a  public  occasion,  was  not  it,  when  they  wanted 
to  hold  a  public  meeting? — A.  You  might  term  it  a  public  occasion. 
Another  thing  was  that  I  did  not  know  him  any  way.  1  told  him  if  lie 
would  see  Mr.  Langsdale  and  Mr,  Clay,  and  they  came  round,  and  they 
certified  him  as  a  citizen,  he  might  get  it. 

Q.  Did  not  Mr.  Clay  afterwards  make  application  for  it  ? — A.  1  under¬ 
stood  he  did. 

Q.  And  to  your  deputy! — A.  Yes,  sir;  to  Mr.  Allen. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Langsdale  join  him  in  the  request! — A.  I  understood  so. 

Q.  Do  you  know  why  they  did  not  get  it? — A.  No,  sir. 


180 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  What  paper  is  it  that  you  said  you  paid  $7  for  ? — A.  For  both  of 
them. 

Q.  You  said  that  the  paper  that  you  had  there  and  produced  to  the 
committee  did  not  look  like  it  was  worth  what  you  paid  for  it! — A.  I 
do  not  knowr  as  it  is. 

Q.  Then  you  were  cheated  ! — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  know  that  I  was. 
I  was  trying  to  get  at  the  secrets  of  this  matter.  I  had  a  curiosity  to 
know  what  these  articles  were. 

Q.  These  secret  articles  here  were  all  of  them  published  in  the  news¬ 
papers,  were  they  not  ? — A.  1  think  they  were. 

Q.  And  there  was  nothing  secret  about  them  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  heard -that  these  others  were  lying  around  loose  in  the 
Greencastle  Banner  office? — A.  No,  sir;  I  nevrer  heard  of  it,  if  they 
were.  We  never  could  get  hold  of  them,  if  they  were. 

Q.  And  you  paid  $7  to  get  hold  of  this  one? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  gratify  your  curiosity  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  wanted  to  see  what  it 
w as.  There  had  been  a  great  deal  of  excitement  among  our  people  over 
the  coming  of  these  North  Carolina  negroes.  I  have  not  been  examined 
before  committees  of  this  sort  much,  and  I  am  in  the  habit  of  stating 
facts  while  on  the  witness  stand  ;  but  f  would  say  there  has  been  a  good 
deal  of  excitement  about  the  negroes  coming  into  our  county,  and  it  is 
prett-.v  generally  believed,  especially  among  the  Democrats,  that  it  was 
a  political  movement.  1  had  heard  about  these  papers  or  letters  or  cir¬ 
culars,  and  1  felt  a  curiosity  to  see  them,  and  thought  that  if  it  was  a 
fact  that  there  was  a  political  purpose  in  bringing  these  negroes  there 
it  was  important  not  only  to  the  laboring  men  of  our  county  but  to  the 
laboring  negroes  of  the  South  that  they  should  know  of  it. 

Q.  You  did  what  you  did  as  a  Democrat? — A.  Yres,  sir;  as  a  Demo¬ 
crat  and  a  citizen. 

Q.  Have  you  not  been  very  active  in  this,  Mr.  Sheriff  ? — A.  I  do  not 
know  that  I  have  been  overly  active.  I  have  bsen  active  to  get  at  the 
facts. 

Q.  Yrou  have  not  been  opposed  to  this  exodus  movement,  have  you? — 
A.  Y'es,  sir,  1  have;  and  have  denounced  it  wherever  [  could.  Laying 
all  politics  aside,  putting  them  entirely  out  of  the  question,  I  have  de¬ 
nounced  it  and  called  it  a  fraud. 

Q.  It  is  not  a  very  easy  thing  for  you  to  do,  is  it,  to  lay  your  politics 
aside? — A.  I  suppose  I  would  be  in  that  matter  like  yourself;  I  am  a 
Democrat. 

Q.  Well,  I  understand  that  you  Democrats  out  there  are  opposed  to 
their  coming? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q  Now  do  you  find  anything  in  that  paper  to  interest  you  after  [lay¬ 
ing  $7  for  it? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  that  I  did  particularly. 

Q.  What  is  there  in  it  except  a  little  exaggeration  ? — A.  I  think  there 
is  a  great  deal  of  exaggeration  in  that  last  article  about  the  amount  of 
pay  and  the  inducements  to  be  given  to  these  people.  I  know  all  that 
is  exaggeration. 

Q.  How  about  the  secret  one  signed  by  Clay  ? — A.  There  is  matter  in 
that  about  the  fifteenth  amendment  being  repealed  ;  that  is  all  exag¬ 
geration.  I  do  not  think  there  is  the  least  danger  of  that  in  the  world. 
1  never  have  and  do  not  think  so  now. 

Q.  Do  not  you  think  that  in  some  localities  it  is  possible  to  nullify  it 
quite  as  much  as  .if  ou  wmre  to  repeal  it? — A.  I  do  not  think,  Senator, 
it  will  ever  be  touched  in  the  world. 

Q.  1  think  I  have  your  objections  to  these  twro  papers.  You  told  us 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


181 


something  about  meeting  'a  certain  Mr.  Heath  ;  what  time  in  the  day 
did  you  meet  him  ? — A.  It  was  in  the  night,  I  think  near  one  o’clock. 

Q.  Were  you  at  the  depot  when  the,  train  arrived  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  alone  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  first  thing  said  between  you  and  him  ? — A.  I  spoke 
to  him  and  said  good  evening. 

Q.  You  were  looking  for  him? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  told  you  to  look  for  him  ? — A.  A  gentleman  named  Baker — 
James  Baker. 

Q.  He  had  come  down  from  Indianapolis? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  did  he  bring  word  from? — A.  John  Manson. 

Q.  Who  is  he  ? — A.  The  auditor  of  the  State. 

Q.  Is  he  a  Democrat? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  why  he  and  the  auditor  had  been  following  this 
colored  man  over  the  State? — A.  Yes,  sir.  He  said  that  this  man  had 
come  on  to  make  arrangements  for  locating  these  exodusters,  and  was 
coming  to  our  county  for  that  purpose. 

A.  And  you  were  requested  to  look  after  him  ?  — A.  Yes,  sir;  and 
have  an  interview  with  him. 

Q.  You  said  good  evening  to  him? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  lie  say  ? — A.  He  asked  if  I  could  show  him  to  the  post- 
office,  and  I  said  I  was  going  right  there. 

Q.  Did  you  go  with  him  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  took  him  to  the  post-office? — A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  he  ask  you  to  show  him  the  postmaster? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  tell  him  that  you  were  the  postmaster? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  tell  him  that  you  were  a  Republican? — A.  No,  sir;  I 
don’t  know  as  I  told  him  I  was;  but  I  asked  him  if  he  was  named 
Heath,  and  he  said,  u  Yes”;  and  I  said  I  was  looking  for  him,  and  he 
asked  me  how  I  knew  he  was  coming,  and  I  said  I  heard  it  from  Indian¬ 
apolis. 

Q.  You  said  you  led  him  to  believe  you  were  a  Republican  ? — A.  I 
did,  sir,  from  my  conversation. 

Q.  You  deceived  him  about  that? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  am  compelled  to 
say, in  truth,  that  \  did. 

Q.  Did  he  bring  any  letters  with  him? — A.  No,  sir;  he  had  some 
little  slips  of  paper,  on  which  were  the  names  of  parties  he  was  to  see. 

Q.  Who  were  they  ? — A.  These  are  the  papers;  I  have  them  here. 
(The  witness  produced  several  slips  of  paper.) 

Q.  Did  he  give  these  to  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  what  point  in  conversation  did  he  give  you  these  papers? — A. 
I  suppose  we  had  been  talking  three  quarters  of  an  hour  when  he  gave 
me  those  papers. 

Q.  You  had  been  talking  a  half  an  hour  at  least? — A.  Yes,  sir;  three- 
fourth's,  perhaps. 

Q.  And  he  asked  you  to  show  him  the  way  to  the  post-office? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  take  him  ? — A.  I  took  him  to  a  hotel  after  he  left 
my  office. 

Q.  Did  he  suppose,  at  the  time,  that  he  was  in  the  sheriff’s  office? — 
A.  I  don’t  know,  sir;  1  don’t  think  he  did. 

Q.  Did  he  talk  to  you  as  though  you  were  the  postmaster? — A.  No, 
sir;  I  told  him  I  had  been  selected  to  meet  him;  that  the  postmaster 
was  not  in  at  that  time  of  night. 

Q.  Yrou  and  him  talked  together  freely? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  anybody  else  there  ? — A.  No,  sir. 


182 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  To  what  hotel  did  you  take  him  ? — A.  To  Sage’s,  down  at  the 
north  end  of  the  town. 

Q.  Yon  say  nobody  saw  you  and  him  when  you  were  holding  this  con- 
versation  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  there  were  two  or  three  parties  at  the  depot. 
The  night  porter,  Mr.  Floyd,  aud  two  policemen  there,  and  a  young 
man  named  Richardson. 

Q.  Did  they  hear  the  conversation  ? — A.  No,  sir.  Mr.  Baker  was 
there  too. 

Q.  Did  he  hear  it  ? — A.  Mr.  Baker  may  have  heard  the  first  words 
that  were  spoken.  I  don’t  think  either  of  the  others  did. 

Q.  At  what  time  of  night  did  you  leave  him  at  the  hotel  ?  It  must 
have  been  between  three  and  four  o'clock  in  the  morning  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
but  I  am  not  sure  as  to  the  time.  It  might  have  been  three  or  four 
o’clock. 

Q.  You  were  with  him  from  the  time  he  got  into  town  until  three  or 
four  o’clock  in  the  morning? — A.  Yres,  sir;  about  two  hours  altogether. 

Q.  He  was  with  you  in  your  office,  you  say,  one  houf  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  with  him  when  you  took  him  to  the  hotel  ? — A. 
I  told  the  proprietor  to  give  him  a  room. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  for  it  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  kuow  who  did  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q,  Do  you  kuow  whether  it  has  been  paid  for  ? — A.  I  think  I  have 
heard  Mr.  Sage  say  it  has  been  paid. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  paid  it? — A.  No,  sir;  I  think  it  was  paid  by 
some  Democrats,  but  I  don’t  know  that  it  was. 

Q.  What  time  did  he  leave? — A.  I  think  he  left  about  nine  o’clock 
the  next  morning. 

Q.  Was  not  that  the  understanding  between  you,  that  he  was  to  leave 
the  next  morning? — A.  No,  sir;  he  was  to  see  me  the  next  morning. 

Q.  Did  you  see  him  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  kuow  anybody  who  did  ? — A.  I  think  I  do. 

Q.  Who  was  it  ? — A.  Mr.  Bridges. 

Q.  What  is  he,  a  Republican  or  a  Democrat? — A.  He  is  a  Democrat. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  say  to  him  that  he  had  better  get  out  of  town  pretty 
quick  or  the  ku-klux  would  get  after  him  ? — A.  No,  sir,  I  did  not,  for 
I  promised  to  see  him  the  next  morning. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  anybody  who  did  tell  him  that  ? — A.  No,  sir;  not 
a  word  of  it. 

Q.  He  did  leave  pretty  suddenly  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  went  away  on  the 
nine  o’clock  train. 

Q.  You  were  to  meet  him  the  next  morning? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  any  intimidation  of  this  man,  or  any  intimatiou  of 
what  frightened  him  off? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  heard  that  Mr.  Bridges  told 
him  he  had  fallen  into  the  hands  of  a  Democrat  instead  of  a  Republican. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  that  Mr.  Bridges  said  anything  to  him  about  ku- 
klux  ? — A.  No,  sir;  if  he  had  done  so  I  think  he  would  have  told  me. 

Q.  Didn’t  you,  as  the  Democratic  sheriff,  get  up  a  good  deal  of  a  con¬ 
spiracy  with  him  to  flood  the  State  with  these  negro  voters  ? — A.  I  told 
him  they  were  needed  by  the  Republican  party,  and  asked  him  how  we 
were  going  to  get  them,  and  how  many.  I  told  him  how  much  we 
needed,  and  he  said  there  was  no  doubt  about  our  getting  them,  if  we 
would  pay  half  their  expenses. 

Q.  You  rather  pledged  the  Republican  party  to  bring  them  on  there? 
— A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not;  I  asked  him  if  they  could  not  pay  their  own 
way;  aud  he  said  that  maybe  some  of  them  would.  I  think  the  lan- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


183 


gnage  he  used  was  that  those  who  had  horses  and  places  would  uot 
come;  and  that  those  who  did  not  could  not  get  the  money  to  come  on. 

Q.  You  stated,  I  believe,  that  it  would  take  about  ten  thousand  voters 
to  turn  the  scale  in  Indiana  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  I  wish  to  state,  in  order 
to  do  him  and  myself  justice,  that  he  was  first  going  to  Kansas.  But  I 
think  he  said  he  was  advised  to  stop  there  by  people  in  Indianapolis. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  who  those  Indianapolis  parties  were? — A.  No, 
sir,  except  from  him;  and  lie  only  named  one  party. 

Q.  You  are  sure  he  said  something  of  that  sort,  before  you  intimated 
•  to  him  that  they  needed  colored  people  to  secure  the  State  for  the  Re¬ 
publican  party  ? — A.  I  think  he  did. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  it  was  your  suggestion  that  you  could  carry 
the  State  that  way  ? — A.  I  think  not*. 

Q.  Was  it  you  who  mentioned  the  ten  thousand  voters  to  him  ? — A. 
I  think  it  was  him.  I  think  he  said  that  he  could  get  any  number  that 
was  wanted  ;  and  they  wanted  ten  thousand. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  say  that  he  suggested  it? — A.  No,  sir,  I  don’t  think  he 
did.  He  said  he  could  get  any  number  if  you  would  pay  half  their  fare. 

Q.  You  communicated  this  conspiracy  to  Governor  Hendricks,  did 
you  not? — A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  it  was  that  communicated  it  to  him  ? — A.  No, 
sir;  I  don’t  think  I  have  had  any  communication  with  him  since  then. 

Q  Do  you  know  whether  this  interview  between  you  and  Heath 
reached  the  governor’s  ears  at  all  ? — A.  I  cannot  tell  you. 

Q.  How  long  was  it  before  he  made  his  speech  that  there  was  a  con¬ 
spiracy  between  the  Republicans  to  flood  the  State  with  colored  voters 
that  you  had  this  interview  with  Heath  ? — A.  I  am  not  able  to  state 
that. 

Q.  Were  you  surprised  when  you  learned  that  Heath  had  gone?  And 
did  you  go  around  there  to  see  him  ? — A.  No,  sir.  I  learned  he  had 
gone  before  I  went  down  there. 

Q.  Who  told  you  that  he  had  gone? — A.  Mr.  Bridges. 

Q.  What  reason  did  Mr.  Bridges  give  you  for  his  going  ? — A.  I  do 
not  know  that  I  can  state  just  what  was  said  on  that  occasion. 

Q.  Can’t  you  remember  it  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  remember  the  substance  of  it? — A.  He  said  he  told  him 
he  had  fallen  into  the  hands  of  a  Democrat ;  and  that  he  seemed 
anxious  to  go  away,  and  that  he  jumped  on  the  train  and  left. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  him  that  you  was  a  member  of  the  ku-klux? — A. 
No,  sir ;  Mr.  Bridges  did  not  say  so. 

Q.  The  fact  that  you  were  a  Democrat  was  enough  to  make  him  go  ? 
— A.  Ares,  sir  ;  it  seems  so. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  him  since  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  was  rather  an  ignorant  man,  was  he  not  ? — A.  Yres,  sir.  He 
was  not  a  low  nigger,  but  rather  of  a  medium  character. 

Q.  These  are  all  the  papers  that  he  showed  you  ? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Just  these  little  slips  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  all. 

Q.  State  what  he  said  as  to  his  interviews  with  people  in  Washing¬ 
ton  ? — A.  I  think  he  said  his  first  intention  was  to  go  to  Kansas:  but 
he  stopped  here,  and,  meeting  this  man  Adams,  he  was  persuaded  to 
stop  at  Indianapolis,  and  from  Indianapolis  he  was  sent  to  Greencastle; 
and  that  parties  told  him  they  wanted  a  certain  number  of  negroes  from 
North  Carolina  in  Indiana  to  lessen  the  number  of  Republican  votes 
out  there  and  increase  it  in  Indiana. 

Q.  You  stated,  I  believe,  that  he  did  not  tell  you  who  they  were  who 
said  that  ? — A.  No,  sir. 


184 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Have  you  ever  beard  anything  since  of  this  man  Heath? — A. 
I  have  seen  an  article  in  the  Banner  purporting  to  be  from  him  ;  blit  J 
do  not  think  it  is  from  him. 

Q.  What  is  that  ? — A.  It  purports  to  be  a  letter  to  the  editor  of  the 
Banner  and  the  postmaster  ;  but  I  do  not  think  it  is  from  him,  from  the 
language  used  in  it. 

Q.  You  haven’t  got  that,  have  you? — A.  No,  sir;  there  was  only  a 
mention  of  it  in  the  Banner. 

Q.  Has  Mr.  Bridges  ever  heard  of  him  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  think  not.  If 
he  had,  I  think  he  would  have  told  me. 

Q.  Did  you  and  Mr.  Bridges  think  that  was  the  right  sort  of  way  to 
do,  to  meet  an  old  darkey  and  frighten  him  out  of  your  county  in  that 
way  ?  Are  those  the  Democratic,  tactics  in  your  county  ? — A.  Not  as  a 
general  thing;  but  this  seemed  to  be  a  desperate  case. 

Q.  WThat  was  the  character  of  that  affidavit  that  he  left  at  Indianap¬ 
olis  ? — A.  I  only  heard  of  it,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  getting  of  it? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  only  heard  of  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  where  he  is  now  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Senator  Windom.  I  do,  and  I  want  him  summoned. 

Senator  Voorhees.  Where  is  he? 

Senator  Windom.  In  Saint  Louis. 

Senator  Voorhees.  Then  I  will  summon  him  whenever  you  desire. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  You  stated  that  his  object  was  first  to  go  to  Kansas  ? — A.  Yes,  sir* 

Q.  And  that  he  was  induced  by  Adams  to  stop  at  Indianapolis  ? — A* 
Yres,  sir;  by  Adams  and  others. 

Q.  You  went  out  of  the  conspiracy  business  with  him.  You  have  not 
heard  anything  more  of  him  ? — A.  No,  sir;  except  what  I  heard  of  him 
in  this  article  in  the  newspaper. 

Q.  Who  had  anything  to  do  with  this  dreadful  conspiracy  besides 
yourself? — A.  I  was  not  in  any  conspiracy.  He  was  giving  his  object, 
and  I  was  agreeing  with  him  for  a  purpose. 

Q.  But,  so  far  as  he  understood  it,  you  and  he  were  in  a  conspiracy 
together? — A.  He  may  have  so  understood  it. 

Q.  You  were  working  up  a  conspiracy  to  flood  Indiana  with  negro 
voters? — A.  No,  sir;  there  was  nothing. of  the  sort  said  in  the  conver¬ 
sation  I  spoke  of. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  that  Mr.  Martindale  said  to  him? — A.  I  do  not 
know  as  I  can  give  you  any  more  than  that  he  was  one  of  the  parties 
who  directed  him  to  Greencastle. 

Q.  Who  was  the  other  party? — A.  I  think  it  was  Mr.  Holloway,  but 
I  am  not  positive  as  to  that. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  more  about  raising  money,  except  what  you 
said  to  him  ? — A.  There  was  nothing  of  that  sort  said,  except  that  he 
said  they  would  have  to  have  half  their  way  paid.  He  said  they  could 
not  be  brought  there  without  somebody  paid  half  their  fare. 

Q.  Did  he,  in  this  confidential  conversation  with  you,  mention  any  one 
who  was  raising  money  for  this  purpose? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  think 
that  I  could  state  that  he  did. 

Q.  Yon  say  you  talked  together  two  hours? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was 
trying  to  get  this  information. 

Q.  And  you  had  his  confidence,  thoroughly  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  talked  freely  with  you? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  he  did. 

Q.  And  you,  while  trying  to  get  this  information,  and  having  his  con- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  185 

fidenee,  (lid  not  get  the  names  of  any  parties  who  were  raising  money 
for  this  purpose? — A.  No,  sir;  he  mentioned  the  names  of  parties  here, 
and  said  they  would  help;  but  I  do  not  know  that  he  mentioned  any¬ 
body  who  was  raising  money. 

Q.  Did  he  express  any  hope  of  getting  it  from  any  source  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir ;  he  seemed  to  think  they  would  help  him. 

Q.  Where  were  those  people  ? — A.  Some  were  here,  and  some  were 
in  Indianapolis. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  who  they  were?— A.  Yes,  sir;  I  asked  him  about 
Indianapolis,  and  my  impression  is  that  he  spoke  of  Martindale  and 
Reynolds. 

Q.  Who  is  Reynolds  ? — A.  He  is  the  mail  ageut  there. 

Q.  He  did  not  mention  these  names  as  the  names  of  men  who  were 
going  to  furnish  money,  did  he  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  think  he  did. 

Q.  Did  he  seem  to  think  those  people  could  be  brought  without  money, 
in  this  conspiracy  you  and  him  were  raising? — A.  He  said  they  could 
not  come  without  half  of  their  way  being  paid. 

Q.  He  looked  to  you  to  help  him,  did  he  not? — A.  He  looked  to  the 
Republican  party. 

Q.  You  did  not  understand  that  he  had  made  any  arrangement  with 
anybody  to  bring  them? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not  think  he  had. 

Q.  But  he  expected  you  to  help  him? — -A.  Yes,  sir;.  I  think  from  the 
questions  he  asked  that  lie  expected  help,  because  he  said  they  could 
not  get  there  without  we  paid  half  their  way. 

Q.  From  ail  he  said,  you  inferred  that  he  had  no  arrangement  for 
money  to  get  them  there? — A.  I  am  inclined  to  think  that  he  had  none. 

Q.  Wrhere  is  the  gentleman  who  saw  him  after  you  did  ? — A.  He  lives 
in  our  town. 

Q.  Have  you  had  frequent  conversation  with  him  since? — A.  I  have 
talked  to  him  some  since. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  to  him  pretty  freely,  after  this  colored  man  left  there 
so  unceremoniously? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  he  told  him  in  the  conversation  that  frightened 
him  out  of  town? — A.  I  think  it  was  a  very  short  conversation  lie  had 
with  him. 

Q.  It  was  short,  sharp,  and  decisive? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

Q.  W  as  he  very  much  amused  as  to  the  effect  his  conversation  had 
upon  this  man  ? — A.  I  think  he  was  a  little  amused. 

Q  Did  he  mention  or  describe  the  effect  that  alarming  statement, 
that  he  had  fallen  into  the  hands  of  a  Democrat,  upou  Heath  ? — A.  He 
may  have  done  so,  but  I  do  not  remember. 

Q.  You  say  that  you  do  not  recollect  hearing  any  Republican  news¬ 
paper  that  denounced  the  exodus;  how  many  do  you  read? — A.  Ido 
not  read  very  many  Republican  newspapers.  I  read  the  journals  occa¬ 
sionally,  and  the  Cincinnati  Commercial,  and  our  county  papers;  some¬ 
times  the  Terre  Haute  papers,  and  sometimes  the  Saint  Louis  papers. 

Q.  You  don’t  confine  yourself  very  much  to  Republican  intelligencers? 
— A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  take  but  one  Republican  paper  regularly. 

Senator  Vance.  You  don’t  think  you  could  stand  two  of  them  ? — A. 
I  do  not  know;  but  probably  I  could. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

tv 

Q.  You  say,  in  the  first  batch,  there  were  fifty  or  sixty  who  came  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  so. 

Q.  And  you  talked  to  Mr.  Hanna  as  to  how  they  came  there? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 


186 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


Q.  He  said  that  money  was  raised  to  take  them  to  Greeucastle,  but 
did  he  say  where  they  found  them  ? — A.  lie  said  to  me,  in  conversation, 
that  somebody  had  telegraphed  to  Laugsdale  to  come  there  and  meet 
them  in  Indianapolis;  but  that  they  had  started  from  there  before  he 
had  arrived. 

Q.  Langsdale,  you  say,  was  a  radical  man? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  held  that  the  negro  was  not  well  treated  in  the  South,  and 
ought  to  come  to  the  North  ? — A.  Yes,  sir:  that  is  his  idea. 

Q.  Then  it  was  very  natural,  was  it  not,  to  telegraph  to  .so  pronounced 
a  friend  of  the  colored  people  to  help  them  ? — A.  1  don’t  know,  sir;  but 
I  know  he  had  written  a  letter,  which  was  published  in  the  Indiauapolis 
Leader,  stating  that  he  would  find  homes  for  all  who  came. 

Q.  Then  that  is  the  reason,  probably,  that  he  was  telegraphed  to? — 
A.  I  don’t  know,  sir ;  I  kuow  1  read  his  letter. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  connection  between  Republicans  and  this 
movement,  except  that  which  is  of  an  industrial  and  charitable  nature  ? 
— A.  Not  from  what  I  know,  except  from  my  conversation  with  Heath. 

Q.  That  is  all  the  information  you  have? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  kuow  of  no  direct  connection  of  any  prominent  Republican 
with  it? — A.  I  do  not  know  of  it  directly  ;  but  it  is  the  general  talk. 

Q.  You  mean  that  is  the  general  suspicion  in  your  party? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  But  when  you  get  down  to  the  facts  there  is  nothing  in  it  ? — A.  I 
have  given  you  all  I  think  about  it. 

Q.  Yrou  kuow  of  no  money  that  has  been  raised  for  these  immigrants, 
except  for  temporary  support  ? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  And  that  money  was  for  stranded  people  who  were  in  need  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  I  think  there  was  some  money  raised  by  them  for  some  who 
wanted  to  start  back  home. 

Q.  That  was  Democratic  money,  wasn’t  it  ?— A.  Y"es,  sir;  I  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  Democratic  efforts  to  get  women  and 
children  to  go  back,  so  as  to  leave  the  impression  that  the  Republicans 
wanted  to  keep  them  there  to  vote  ? — A.  I  know  that  they  are  very  des¬ 
titute,  and  that  our  Republicans  said  that  they  would  not  raise  money 
to  help  them  to  get  back. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  anything  of  a  large  number  of  Republicans  who  said 
anything  about  there  being  no  employment  for  these  people  ?- — A.  I  ex¬ 
pect  I  have  heard  two  hundred  say  that. 

Q.  Give  us  the  names  of  as  many  as  you  can  ? — A.  It  would  be  a  hard 
job  to  give  you  the  names  of  a  good  many. 

Q.  Give  us  all  you  can  ? — A.  There  were  two  of  the  Williamses,  Mr. 
Welker,  the  man  I  spoke  of  yesterday.  I  believe  I  have  heard  Mr. 
Hanna,  in  his  way,  speak  of  there  not  being  employment  for  them  ail. 
There  were  two  or  three  of  the  Grows  who  were  not,  I  think,  in  favor  of 
the  movement. 

Q.  Arethoseall  ? — A.  No,  sir;  Mr.  Will  Fipps  I  have  heard  speak  of  it 
to  a  number  of  men  down  by  the  mill.  I  heard  them  also  speak  of  it ; 
but  I  don’t  know  that  I  could  give  you  the  names  in  full. 

Q.  They  were  mostly  people  about  town? — A.  YYs,  sir;  but  some  of 
them  lived  in  the  country.  1  mentioned  some  who  lived  there. 

Q.  Yrou  say  you  saw  a  squad  of  twenty  in  a  room  no  larger  than  this  ? 
— A.  lres,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  recent  arrivals  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  they  had  been  there  some 
time. 

Q.  Did  they  find  employment? — A.  I  think  some  of  the  men  did. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


187 


Q.  What  proportion  of  the  two  hundred  and  fifty  who  arrived  there 
were  women  and  children  ? — A.  It  would  be  difficult  for  me  to  state. 

Q.  Ar’n’t  they  people  who  generally  have  large  families? — A.  I  think 
the  first  lot  of  fifty  or  sixty  were  all  men  but  one.  Then  of  the  balance 
I  think  one  hundred  and  twenty-five — well,  probably  not  that  many, 
were  men. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  have  not  found  employment  ? — A.  I  could  not 
tell  you. 

Q.  How  many  do  you  know  have  found  employment  ? — A.  I  know 
where  probably  fifty  or  sixty  have  been  located. 

Q.  Do  you  think  you  know  all  who  have  been  employed? — A.  I  think 
I  do.  Those  who  are  not  employed  are  about  town,  and  may  get  a  day’s 
job  now  and  then.  When  I  speak  of  employment,  I  mean  steady  em¬ 
ployment  for  those  out  in  the  country.  There  are  forty  or  fifty,  per¬ 
haps  sixty,  who  are  living  with  parties  in  the  country. 

Q.  You  say  that  Heath  talked  about  improving  his  condition  by  com¬ 
ing  to  Indiana;  what  did  he  say  ? — A.  He  said  that  his  idea  was  that 
they  could  better  their  condition  by  coming  West. 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  complaint  as  to  his  treatment  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  said  they  could  not  get  money  for  their  work, 
and  had  to  take  their  pay  in  orders  out  of  the  stores. 

Q.  He  complained  about  the  order  system  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  complain  of  any  other  bad  treatment,  political  or  social  ? — 
A,  I  think,  perhaps,  he  did. 

Q.  Did  he  complain  of  any  discrimination  between  the  whites  and  the 
blacks  in  the  administration  of  the  laws? — A.  If  he  did,  I  have  forgot¬ 
ten  it.  / 


Q.  Did  he  say  there  was  general  dissatisfaction  among  his  people? — 
A.  He  stated  that  a  large  portion  of  them  would  come  if  they  could  get 
North  ;  and  you  may  term  it  dissatisfaction  or  not.  But  1  believe  he 
said  nearly  all  would  come  if  half  their  fare  was  paid,  except  those  who 
had  teams  and  property. 

Q.  Wasn’t  it  a  fact  that  when  so  many  of  those  people  came  a  long 
distance  in. such  a  condition,  and  with  so  many  women  and  children,  it 
sort  of  mollified  your  party  in  its  ideas  as  to  the  political  character  of 


the  movement  ? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

Q.  Hasn’t  it  occurred  to  you  that  if  the  Republican  party  was  doing 
this  as  a  political  movement,  they  would  not  go  so  long  a  distance  and 
bring  such  large  families  all  the  way  from  Indiana  in  order  to  get  one 
man  to  vote  the  Republican  ticket  ? — A.  I  think  I  have  argued  that 
out.  The  reason  was  to  keep  the  men  there,  who  would  not  stay  there 
without  their  families. 

Q.  Couldn’t  they  have  brought  them  cheaper  by  the  Mississippi  river 
and  your  Vandalia  line  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir. 

Q.  Couldn’t  they  have  brought  them  by  the  Vandalia  line  for  five 
dollars  a  head  ? — A.  1  don’t  know  as  to  that. 

Q.  You  know  there  is  a  good  deal  of  satisfaction  down  there  in  Mis¬ 
sissippi  and  Louisiana  among  the  colored  people?—  A.  That  is  the 
newspaper  report,  and  that  is  all  I  have  heard  of  if. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  it  is  an  unwise  policy  in  the  Republican  party  for 
them  to  colonize  the  State  by  taking  the  people  from  North  Carolina, 
and  not  from  Mississippi  and  Louisiana? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir,  as  to 
their  objects. 

Q.  Assuming  the  idea  of  your  party,  that  this  movement  has  been 
created  for  political  purposes,  do  you  not  think  it  would  be  better  pol- 
icv  to  take  them  from  Louisiana  and  Mississippi  than  trom  North  Caro- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


18S 

1 

ina? — A.  Unless  the  reason  is  as  has  been  stated  here,  it  would  be 
better;  but  it  has  been  said  here  by  colored  Republicans  that  North 
Carolina  is  a  safe  Republican  State,  and  they  can  spare  them  from 
there. 

Q.  Couldn’t  they  spare  them  from  Kentucky  ? — A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  that  Kentucky  is  a  large  Democratic  State  ? — A. 
You  know  it  has  been  going  down  some  here  of  late. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  it  is  an  absurd  proposition  'that  the  Republican 
party  should  go  to  North  Carolina  and  do  this  thing  to  the  disgust  of  its 
own  people  in  Indiana? — A.  I.  do  not  think  the  Republicans  are  dis¬ 
gusted  with  the  negroes;  but  they  are  disgusted  with  this  system  of 
bringing  them  out  there  and  putting  them  on  the  tax  payers  without 
anything  to  support  them.  We  have  to  feed  them  and  to  shelter  them, 
and  so  they  are  objected  to  by  Democrats  and  Republicans  alike. 

Q.  Do  you  think  their  coming  is  likely  to  change  the  political  aspects 
of  the  State  ? — A.  1  do  not  think  so. 

Q.  Your  people  have  no  fears  on  that  point  ? — A.  Some  of  them 
have;  but  I  have  not. 

Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  You  said  there  is  no  demand  for  these  people  now  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  There  are  three  seasons,  you  say — planting,  harvesting,  and  corn- 
gathering.  When  does  the  demand  spring  up? — A.  Well,  sir,  they 
commence  plowing  about  the  first  of  March,  and  sometimes  not  till 
April.  This  winter  has  been  very  open,  and  if  it  dries  out  they  will,  be¬ 
gin  plowing  in  April  and  plant  in  May. 

Q.  From  the  time  they  commence  planting  up  to  the  time  the  crop  is 
in  they  do  not  labor? — A.  We  have  such  improvements  in  machinery 
now  that  one  man  attends  to  as  much  of  the  crop  as  ten  men  used  to 
do.  We  use  double  plows,  reapers,  and  binders,  and  it  requires  less 
labor  than  you  would  suppose  to  run  one  of  our  farms. 

Q.  When  is  the  most  demand  for  labor? — A.  In  the  summer. 

Q.  You  need  help  most  from  spring  time  through  to  winter? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  we  need  most  of  them  through  the  crop  season. 

Q.  How  long  a  time  does  it  take  to  get  those  crops  in  ? — A.  I  don’t 
know  that  I  can  say,  as  I  am  not  a  farmer. 

Q.  In  our  State  we  hire  about  the  time  you  do  and  get  through  in 
October.  We  hire  up  there  for  six  months. — A.  I  don’t  think  they  hire 
that  long  in  Indiana.  They  have  large  stock  farms,  and  I  know  one 
man  who  has  a  thousand  head  of  three  year-olds ;  it  is  a  blue-grass  re¬ 
gion,  and  the  best  in  the  State,  and  the  best  stock  county  in  the  State.. 

Q.  I  suppose  the  portion  of  the  year  that  an  ordinary  laboring  man 
can  get  work  in  Indiana  is  about  the  same  as  in  any  other  State  South 
or  North  ? — A.  I  don’t  know.,  sir.  We  have  had  a  great  deal  of  idle¬ 
ness  in  our  State  the  last  three  or  four  years. 

Q.  I  am  speaking  of  it  as  a  general  rule.  Now  here  is  a  colored  man 
or  an  Irishman,  and  he  proposes  to  emigrate  to  some  State  in  the  West; 
won’t  he  get  as  much  work  in  Indiana  as  in  Illinois  or  Missouri  ? — A.  1 
would  hardly  think  so.  I  would  think  that  in  Illinois,  or  in  Missouri, 
where  they  have  more  wooded  land  to  clear,  he  would  stand  better  than 
in  Indiana. 

Q.  You  know  that  in  nearly  all  parts  of  the  world,  agricultural 
people  must  for  a  while  lie  unemployed  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  so. 

Q.  So  that  immigrants  to  Indiana  would  find  no  more  luck  of  employ¬ 
ment  there  than  elsewhere  ? — A.  I  am  inclined  to  think  he  would.  I 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


189 


know  we  have  been  overrun  by  idle  men  in  our  State  for  several  years — 
these  people  who  are  called  tramps.  In  fact,  we  have  had  an  unusual 
amount  of  idle  men  tramping  through  the  country. 

Q.  An  emigrant,  going  from  any  quarter  to  a  new  country,  would 
expect,  would  he  not,  to  undergo  some  hardships? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  sup¬ 
pose  so. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  these  people  would  rather  prefer  to  go  in  a  dull 
season,  and  take  advantage  of  any  rise  in  the  demand  for  labor  in  the 
spring,  than  otherwise? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

By  Senator  WilSDOM  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  this  gentleman  who  saw  Heath  paid  his 
way  where  he  went  ? — A.  I  think  lie  did,  but  1  do  not  know. 

Q.  If  he  did,  he  was  contributing  to  the  exodus  to  some  other  State  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Voorhees: 

Q.  Now,  you  say  these  three  pieces  of  paper  Heath  gave  to  you  at 
that  night  interview  ;  just  read  that  one. 

The  Witness  read  as  follows  : 

“Postmaster  Langsdale,  and  Mr.  Clay,  colored,  at  Greencastle, 
Putuum  County,  on  the  Terre  Haute  railroad.  Private.  Tell  these 
gentlemen  more  are  coming.” 

Q.  Please  state  what  is  on  the  back  of  that  paper. 

The  Witness.  “  Holloway.  P.  M.” 

Q  Did  you  ever  see  Mr.  Holloway’s  handwriting  ? — A.  I  do  not  know 
that  I  know  it. 

Q.  Look  at  this  piece  of  brown  paper,  which  you  furnished  on  cross- 
examination  by  Mr.  Windom,  and  state  what  is  on  the  face  of  it. — A. 
(The  Witness  reading,)  “  Union  depot,  mail  office,  Reynolds.” 

Q.  State  Whether  you  have  any  means  of  identifying  who  Reynolds  is, 
by  your  information  or  personal  knowledge. — A.  I  understand  he  is 
the  mail  agent  there. 

Q.  Where? — A.  At  Indianapolis. 

Q.  At  the  Union  depot? — A.  Well,  sir;  I  never  made  any  inquiry 
about  him. 

Q.  This  third  paper;  what  is  it  ? — A.  That  is  “  J.  M.”  at  the  top,  but 
I  take  that  to  be  “  J.  M.  Adams,  1338  V.  street,  N.  W.” 

Q.  And  these  are  the  papers  he  handed  you  when  he  was  talking  to 
you,  and  supposed  you  were  in  sympathy  with  the  movement? — A. 
That  is  true,  sir. 

Q.  In  your  office,  as  sheriff,  I  will  ask  you  whether  it  does  not  often 
become  necessary,  to  discover  the  purposes  of  parties,  to  appear  to  be  for 
the  time  in  sympathy  with  them  ? — A.  We  rarely  ever  succeed  if  we  tell 
the  world  what  we  are  doing.  I  mean  in  pursuing  a  criminal,  or  any¬ 
thing  of  that  kind ;  we  cannot  get  at  the  facts,  whether  it  be  arson  or 
theft,  successfully  without  practicing  some  deception. 

Q.  Mr.  W  indom  examined  and  cross  examined  you  in  reference  to  the 
feeling  thereon  the  subject  of  immigration.  Now,  take  your  own  county, 
and,  if  I  understand  you,  there  are  objections  to  these  people  com¬ 
ing;  but  it  is  on  account  of  their  being  paupers  coming  there  without  a 
demand  for  their  labor,  and  consequently  becoming  objects  of  charity; 
but  there  is  no  objection  to  immigration  into  the  State  of  self-support¬ 
ing  laborers  ? — A.  I  never  heard  of  any. 

Q.  But  there  are  objections  to  paupers  coming  there  in  large  numbers? 
— A.  Yes,  sir.  Will  you  allow  me  to  state  right  here  that  the  greatest 


190 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


amount  of  dissatisfaction  seems  to  be  with  the  laboring  classes  of  peo¬ 
ple.  They  seem  to  be  more  dissatisfied  with  it  than  any  others. 

Q.  You  have  heard  some  grumbling  among  them  which  amounted  to 
threats  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  was  some  disturbance  on  account  of  it,  was  there  not,  over 
in  Hancock  County ? — A.  I  heard  of  it,  but  I  do  not  know  anything 
about  it. 

Q.  These  threats,  you  say,  came  generally  from  the  laboring  classes 
of  people  ? — A.  There  was  some  from  leading  Democrats  ;  but  the  largest 
portion  of  them  came  from  the  laboring  people. 

Q.  These  irrespective  of  party  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  1  think  there  are  some 
few  laboring  men  who  are  Republicans  who  are  sympathizing  with  it. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  You  say  you  rarely  succeed  in  finding  a  criminal  without  practicing 
deception.  Do  you  think  it  is  criminal  for  a  quiet  citizen  to  come  into 
you  county  as  tins  man  Heath  did  ? — A.  Senator  Voorhees  asked  me 
about  criminals. 

Q.  But  you  admit  you  took  your  criminal  tactics  in  dealing  with  this 
man? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  did  in  this  case. 

Q.  Why  ? — A.  Because  it  was  rather  an  unusual  case. 

Q.  You  say  that  house  was  burnt  because  of  the  man’s  hiring  a  negro  f 
—A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  they  had  let  this  man  hire  the  negro,  he  would  have  been  self- 
supporting,  and  found  work  enough  to  do? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  don’t  you  want  to  correct  this  answer? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  J  thought  I  would  call  your  attention  to  it.  * 


TESTIMONY  OF  MR.  WARNOCK. 


Mr.  Waknook  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Question.  Did  you  see  these  circulars  around  the  Banner  office  (re¬ 
ferring  to  circulars  signed  by  Rev.  J.  H.  Olay)? — Answer.  No,  sir; 
as  soon  as  they  were  done,  they  were  put  into  packages  and  sent  down¬ 
stairs. 

Q.  Who  did  you  first  mention  it  to? — A.  I  said  nothing  about  it  at 
all.  1  heard  that  Mr.  Lew  man  had  one,  and  there  was  going  to  be  an 
investigation  of  it. 

Q.  It  is  not  usual,  is  it,  for  printers  to  tell  about  what  is  done  in  their 
job  offices? — A.  No,  sir  ;  not  unless  they  are  asked. 

Q.  It  is  not  usual  for  them  to  tell  all  they  know  ?—  A.  No,  sir  ;  but  I 
supposed  the  committee  wanted  all  the  facts. 

Q.  State  whether  it  is  considered  honorable  among  printers  to  tell 
things  occurring  in  their  offices,  unless  they  are  called  upon  regularly 
to  do  so? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  supposed  that  I  was. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Lewman  call  upon  you  regularly  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  but  Mr. 
Warren  asked  me  about  it,  and  showed  me  a  copy  that  Mr.  Lewman  had, 
and  I  remembered  it. 

On  motion,  the  committee  adjourned  until  Monday,  February  2,  1880. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


191 


.  E  IGHTH  D  A  Y  . 

Washington,  Monday,  February  2,  1880. 

The  committee  met  pursuant  to  its  order  of  adjournment  and  resumed 
the  hearing  of  testimony.  Present,'  the  chairman,  and  all  the  members 
of  the  committee. 

TESTIMONY  OF  WILLIAM  B.  TINNEY. 

William  B.  Tinney  sworn  and  examined. 

N  By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside  ? — Answer.  Indianapolis,  Ind. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation  ? — A.  I  am  agent  of  the  Baltimore  and 
Ohio  Railroad,  at. Indianapolis. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  acting  in  that  capacity  ? — A.  At  Indian¬ 
apolis  ? 

Q.  Anywhere  ? — A.  A  little  over  five  years  I  have  been  in  the  employ 
of  the  company. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  have  been  at  Indianapolis'? — A.  Ever  since  I 
was  emplyed  by  the  company. 

Q.  Are  you  a  native  of  Indiana  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  from  Maryland  ? — A.  I  am  a  Kentuckian. 

Q.  Did  you  go  from  Kentucky  to  Indiana? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  went  from 
Ohio. 

Q.  You  are  the  agent  of  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Road,  but  there  are 
agencies  for  different  purposes;  what  is  yours? — A.  I  am  passenger 
agent. 

Q.  Did  they  ever  have  more  than  one  passenger  agent  there  ? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  What  position  does  Louis  C.  Morrison  hold  ? — A.  He  is  general 
passenger  agent  of  the  Vandal ia  line. 

Q.  Do  you  know  him  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Tinney,  tell  the  committee  whether  you  know  of  any  money 
being  raised  in  Indianapolis,  as  you  understand,  for  the  purpose  of  car¬ 
rying  negroes  from  this  place  to  Indiana. — A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  State  all  you  know  in  regard  to  the  telegram  addressed  to  your¬ 
self  asking  that  money  be  raised  to  send  negroes  from  Washington  to 
Indiana. — A.  Well,  sir,  I  think  some  four  or  five  weeks  ago — I  caunqt 
give  you  the  exact  date  because  I  have  not  it  with  me — I  was  absent 
from  home  when  an  open  telegram  was  sent  over  the  wire  to  me  at  In¬ 
dianapolis  instructing  me  to  collect  $025  to  pay  the  transportation  of 
negroes  from  Washington  to  Indianapolis. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  an  open  message  over  the  wire  ? — A.  I  call 
it  an  open  message  because  it  came  over  the  private  wire  of  the  rail¬ 
road,  l  presume  over  the  I.,  C.  and  L.  wire. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  an  open  message? — A.  One  not  inclosed  in 
an  envelope. 

Q.  Is  that  the  habit  of  the  company  in  telegraphing  to  its  employes  ? 
— A.  Not  generally  so,  unless,  as  in  this  case,  they  are  not  accessible  to 
any  envelope. 

Q.  But  it  came  here  over  the  private  wires  and  came  into  you  office  ? 
— A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  And  fell  into  the  hands  of  another  party? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  saw  it  and  read  it? — A.  1  presume  so;  I  did  not  see  it  for 
two  days  after. 


192 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  And  that  party  handed  it  to  you  ? — A.  When  I  came  home  I  think 
I  found  it  under  the  inkstand  on  my  desk. 

Q.  It  had  been  placed  there  by  somebody? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  presume 
so.  Mr.  Morris  made  the  remark  that  there  was  a  telegram  for  me  in 
addition  to  my  mail. 

Q.  What  Morris  was  that? — A.  Levy  0.  Morris. 

Q.  Have  you  that  telegram  with  you? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  with  it? — A.  I  destroyed  it  after  attending  to 

inv  business. 

« 

Q.  Is  it  in  existence? — A.  I  presume  the  original  could  be  got  from 
the  office  here. 

Q.  State  the  contents  of  it. — A.  The  substance  of  the  message  was 
for  me  to  go  to  certain  parties  there  and  collect  $625,  upon  which  being 
done,  transportation  would  be  furnished  to  the  negroes  for  the  money 
so  deposited  with  me;  tkeu  they  would  be  given  tickets. 

Q.  Be  good  enough,  Mr.  Tiuney,  to  state  whose  name  was  signed  to 
this  dispatch. — A.  I  think  our  agent  here  in  Washington,  whose  last 
name  is  Koontz. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Koontz  I — A.  I  have  met  him  twice  since  I  have 
been  here.  I  asked  him  if  he  had  the  original  telegram,  and  I  said  to 
him  that  it  might  be  called  for.  He  said  to  me  at  another  time  that  he 
had  found  the  original. 

Q.  In  conversation  with  him  did  you  refresh  your  recollection  that 
the  dispatch  was  from  him  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  his  position  in  the  company  ? — A.  He  is  general  agent 
at  this  place. 

Q.  Tell  us  the  names  of  those  parties  he  requested  you  to  see  and 
from  whom  to  collect  this  money.  — A.  There  were  three  colored  men. 

Q.  Name  them. — A.  Message  read,  in  substance,  collect  from  Profes¬ 
sors  Bagby,  Broyles,  and  Elbert  this  money. 

Q.  Are  these  men  of  large  means  ? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir  ;  I  never  saw 
but  one  of  them. 

Q.  Did  you  collect  the  money  from  them  ? — A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  go  to  see  them  ? — A.  I  went  where  I  expected  to  find 
them 

Q.  Who  did  you  see  ? — I  saw  the  leaders  of  the  negro  chureli  there. 

Q.  Did  you  see  either  of  these  three  men  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  leaders  did  you  see? — A.  The  minister’s  name,  I  think,  was 
Trebine. 

Q.  Did  you  see  either  one  of  them  afterwards  ? — A.  I  saw  Bagby. 

Q.  Did  you  get  the  money  from  him  ? — A.  Not  a  cent. 

Q.  What  did  you  tell  him? — A.  I  told  him  I  had  called  to  collect 
$625,  according  to  this  telegram,  and  that  it  was  two  days  old  and  L 
did  not  know  what  had  been  done  in  the  mean  time.  He  remarked  that 
they  did  not  have  $625  there  that  night,  and  I  said  I  do  not  want 
your  money  myself;  1  don’t  propose  to  go  about  with  $600  out  of 
that  church  and  keep  it  over  night  at  my  house.  I  said  to  them  that 
you  had  better  take  the  money  to  some  bank  and  get  them  to  telegraph 
to  Koontz  to  furnish  the  tickets  aud  that  the  money  is  there  subject  to 
a  draft. 

Q.  Was  that  the  course  taken  ? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

Q.  That  is,  you  went  no  further  with  it  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  know  whether  the  money  was  raised  ? — A.  I  don’t  know, 
sir  ;  I  presume  more  than  likely  the  money  was  sent  or  tickets  would  not 
have  been  furnished. 

•  Q.  They  were  furnished,  were  they  not  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  ;  I  know 
the  negroes  came  to  Indianapolis  and  we  don’t  haul  people  for  nothing. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  193 

Q.  You  haul  some  of  them  for  half  price,  anyhow  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and 
white  people  too. 

Q.  Do  you  charge  these  people  full  price  ? — A.  You  are  right,  we  do. 

Q.  Yrou  saw  Bagby  when  ? — A.  It  was  between  9  and  10  o’clock. 

Q.  And  he  said  the  money  was  not  raised  ? — A.  I  won’t  be  positive 
he  said  that  when  I  went  into  the  church  ;  I  asked  him  where  I  would 
find  these  parties  and  they  pointed  me  to  the  executive  committee- 
room,  as  they  called  it,  and  I  went  in  and  found  some  20  or  25  there,  t 
never  had  seen  Mr.  Bagby  before  that  time,  and  1  showed  the  message 
and  lie  read  it  the  second  time ;  they  took  counsel  about  it;  they  came 
to  me,  somebody  did,  and  said  they  had  not  that  amount  to-night  but 
they  would  raise  that  amount  to-morrow  so  as  to  let  the  negroes 
come. 

Q.  You  naturally  supposed  that  they  had  raised  it  ? — A  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  negroes  came  over  the  road  ? — A.  I  met  Mr.  Bagby  several 
times  afterwards,  but  I  did  not  ask  him  about  it.  I  told  them  who  were 
at  the  church  that  I  did  not  want  the  money  myself;  their  best  course 
was  to  deposit  it  in  a  bank. 

Q.  Did  any  one  want  you  to  wait  until  they  raised  the  money? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  and  1  know  I  was  positive  about  not  taking  it. 

Q.  You  thought  that  some  of  them  might  be  moved  by  pious  zeal  to 
interview  you  ? — A.  I  don’t  know,  but  1  thought  there  might  be  some¬ 
body  to  do  that. 

Q.  This  you  say  was  five  or  six  weeks  ago? — A.  Yes,  sir;  as  long  as 
that. 

Q.  How  soon  after  that  was  there  heard  the  arrival  of  these  people  ? 
— A.  Two  or  three  days. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  many  came? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  account  of  them  at  that  end  of  the  line  ? — A.  No, 
sir;  nobody  would  know  that  fact  probably,  except  the  officers  of  the 
Indianapolis,  Cincinnati  and  Lafayette  Road  ;  the  general  ticket  agent 
if  he  knows  his  business,  ought  to  know  how  many  people  go  over  his 
road,  for  he  gets  one  coupon  for  each  fare. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  many  carloads  came? — A.  No,  sir;  Ido 
not. 

Q.  Did  you  see  some  of  them  when  they  came  there? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  not  taken  a  very  lively  interest  in  it  yourself? — A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  Did  not  carry  anything  into  your  pocket? — A.  It  does  not  add 
anything  to  my  salary  at  all. 

Q.  You  have  no  politics  to  interest  you  in  the  matter  ? — A,  No,  sir; 
we  will  carry  them  dead  or  alive  either  way. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  political  prominence  of  Mr.  Bagby? — A.  Iam 
rather  inclined  to  think  that  this  gentlemen  spoken  of  in  the  dispatch 
must  have  been  rather  influential.  I  think  Mr.  Bagby  is  at  the  head 
of  one  or  two  colored  institutions  there. 

Q.  Is  lie  a  prominent  Republican  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  his  politics,  but 
he  is  quite  influential  among  his  people. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Broyle’s  politics  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Elbert’s? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  not  mixed  in  politics  out  there  much? — A.  I  vote  very 
seldom. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  this  money  was  deposited,  what  bank'? — A. 
No,  sir;  i  don’t  know  that  it  was  raised. 

Q.  You  told  them  the  best  way  was  to  put  it  in  a  bank  and  telegraph 

13  EX 


194 


NEGRO  EXOUUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


to  Koontz  to  furnish  tickets  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  to  let  tickets  issue  and  then 
the  money  could  be  drawn  from  the  bank;  they  did  not  know  me  and  I 
would  have  had  to  receipt  to  them,  and  probably  had  to  go  around  and 
get  somebody  to  identify  myself,  which  I  did  not  propose  to  do  that 
night. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  You  do  not  know  whether  it  was  raised  or  not? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  whether  it  was  raised  here  or  there  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  The  only  reason  you  suppose  it  was  raised  was  that  the  negroes 
came  there? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  might  have  been  raised  here? — A.  No,  sir  ;  1  don’t  say  that;  nat¬ 
urally  on  that  telegram  I  thought  it  was  to  be  raised  there,  or  he  would 
not  have  telegraphed  as  lie  did.  I  take  -it  that  way  as  it  was  usual  in 
some  cases  to  get  us  folks,  and  telegraph,  as  in  that  way  we  would  Save 
the  money,  and  we  had  the  privilege  of  the  wires. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  You  necessarily  would  notice  the  arrival  of  colored  people  there? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  seen  a  good  many  of  these  people  arrive  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a  man  by  the  name  of  Reynolds  that  is  the  mail 
agent  at  the  Indiana  depot? — A.  I  have  seen  him,  but  I  am  not  ac¬ 
quainted  with  him. 

Q.  You  would  not  be  likely  to  know  of  his  selling  tickets  in  this  busi¬ 
ness? — A.  I  don’t  think  lie  was  ever  in  the  list  to  sell  tickets  from  our 
road  ;  we  don’t  recognize  anybody  whose  name  is  not  ou  our  pay-roll. 


TESTIMONY  OF  VIRLING  K.  MORRIS. 

Virling  K.  Morris  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  You  say  you  reside  at  Indianapolis? — Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a  man  by  the  name  of  Williams,  a  colored  mau,  who 
has  been  connected  with  this  emigration  movement? — A.  Yes,  sir;  1 
have  met  him  a  time  or  two. 

Q.  Where  did  you  meet  him  ? — A.  I  believe  the  first  time  was  in  my 
office. 

Q.  W^here  is  your  office? — A.  Number  58  East  Market  street. 

Q.  What  business  are  you  engaged  in  ? — A.  The  real  estate  business; 
and  then  we  have  been  acting  as  agents  for  Western  railroads  having 
a  land  agency.  I  think  there  was  the  first  place  I  saw  him. 

Q.  Why  did  he  call  on  you  ? — A.  I  think  he  called  to  see  if  he  could 
get  transportation  to  Topeka,  Ivans. 

Q.  Are  you  agent  of  roads  leading  into  that  State  ? — A.  I  have  been 
of  the  Atchison,  Topeka  and  Sante  Fe  Railroad,  but  not  for  several 
years  past. 

Q.  Are  you  related  to  Levy  C.  Morris? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  is  a  brother 
of  mine. 

Q.  He  is  an  agent  of  the  Vandalia  line,  is  he  not  ?— A.  I  will  explain 
that  to  you.  We  have  au  office  up  on  Market  street,  and  one  at  164 
South  Illinois  street.  He  has  charge  of  that  while  I  am  up  at  the 
Market  street  office.  That  down  there  is  our  Western  business  ;  while 
Mr.  Mills  is  associated  with  me  at  my  office,  which  is  up  town. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


195 


Q.  Do  you  have  the  privileges  of  his  office  down  town  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  which  one  of  your  offices  did  Williams  call  on  you  ? — A.  The 
uptown  office. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  before  that  he  had  seen  your  brother? — A. 
I  dou’t. 

Q.  You  say  he  wanted  transportation  to  Topeka,  Kans.  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  long  he  had  been  in  the  State  when  he  called 
on  you  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not  know  he  was  there  until  he  came  into 
the  office. 

Q.  At  what  time  was  that? — A.  In  the  fore  part  of  October. 

Q.  Did  he  get  transportation  to  Kansas? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  get  it  from  you  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  went  to  Kansas  ? — A.  No,  sir;  not  to  my 
knowledge. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  about  remaining  in  Indiana? — A.  I  don’t  remem¬ 
ber  his  saying  anything  particular.  He  wanted  to  know  what  the  fare 
would  be  to  Kansas.  He  was  in  there  but  a  little  while. 

Q.  Could  he  not  have  found  that  easier  down  town  than  up  at  your 
office? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  came  he  to  come  to  you  ? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir.  I  think  one 
of  these  colored  men  came  with  him.  You  see  we  have  been  advertising 
considerably  over  that  country  as  land  agents,  particularly  of  the  Iron 
Mountain  road ;  and  persons  visit  our  office  in  town  to  see  what  rates 
they  can  get  to  various  points. 

Q.  You  don’t  remember  the  man  who  came  with  him  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  Perry  ? — A.  I  think  Perry  came  to  the  office  first,  and  in 
a  few  minutes  Williams  came.  I  believe  it  was  Perry  that  the  other 
gentleman  was  with. 

Q.  Had  Perry  been  to  your  office  frequently  ? — A.  Several  times. 

Q.  Is  that  him  [pointing  Perry  out  in  the  committee  room]  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  he  came  first  with  another  gentleman,  and  then  Williams 
came  in? — A.  Aes,  sir;  in  five  or  ten  minutes 

Q.  Did  they  state  anything  about  settling  in  Indiana? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  said  nothing  to  you  about  settling  in  Indiana? — A.  I  think 
we  had  some  little  talk  about  it,  but  I  don’t  know  whether  it  was  at 
that  time  or  afterwards. 

Q.  Was  he  there  afterwards? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  talk  with  him? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  finally  conclude  to  stay  there? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  he 
did. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  a3  to  the  others? — A.  He  said  that  others  were 
coming. 

Q.  Did  he  give  you  an  idea  of  how  many? — A.  No,  sir;  he  didn’t 
mention  the  numbers;  no,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  say  about  what  time  they  would  come? — A.  No,  sir.  I 
think  the  next  time  there  were  some  of  them  there  at  the  Union  depot, 
and  I  went  down  to  see  them.  The  first  time  I  don’t  recollect.  I  don’t 
remember  how  soon  he  told  me  any  of  them  were  coming. 

Q.  I  mean,  did  he  say  they  were  coining  this  winter,  or  next  summer, 
or  when?  Did  he  indicate  when  they  would  come? — A.  No,  sir;  he 
didn’t  indicate  any  particular  time. 

Q.  What  reason  did  he  give  for  their  coming? — A.  Well,  he  thought 
they  didn’t  have  the  privileges  in  North  Carolina  that  they  would  have 
in  Indiana  and  in  Kansas. 


196 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  ITow  long:  had  he  been  in  Indiana  at  that  time  ? — A.  I  cannot  say. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  is  now  ? — A.  I  don’t. 

Q.  Wh  at  do  you  know  of  his  making  a  trip  to  Washington  after¬ 
wards? — A.  I  don’t  know  anything  about  it,  except  that  he  came,  and 
there  were  some  colored  people  with  him  at  the  Union  depot.  I  think 
there  were  two  or  three  colored  men  with  him  when  he  came  to  the  of¬ 
fice. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  when  he  was  returning  to  Washington  ? — A.  No, 
sir.  He  came  here  and  then  came  back  to  Indianapolis. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  to  help  him  purchase  tickets  ? — A.  I  assisted  Mr. 
Perry. 

Q.  State  what  that  assistance  was  ? — A.  He  came  in  and  wanted  me 
to  assist  him  about  getting  tickets,  and  he  gave  me  the  money,  and  I 
went  down  and  gave  it  to  my  brother.  I  suppose  he  ticketed  them 
through.  I  returned  to  the  office,  as  I  was  busy  that  day. 

Q.  You  say  Perry  gave  you  the  money  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Could  he  not  have  gone  and  bought  them  himself  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
I  suppose  so. 

Q.  Then  why  did  you  do  it? — A.  Because  he  asked.  People  very  fre¬ 
quently  do  it  who  are  going  west. 

Q.  Was  he  going  west  ? — A.  He  was  going  east. 

Q.  Why  didn’t  you  tell  him  to  go  and  buy  the  tickets  for  himself? 
— A.  Because  we  get  a  commission  out  of  tickets  we  sell  over  some  of 
the  roads,  and  that  was  the  case  in  this  instance. 

Q.  How  much  commission  did  you  get  on  these  tickets  ? — A.  I  think 
two  dollars  in  each  case. 

Q.  Did  you  divide  that  with  Perry  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  took  two  dollars  commission  on  each  ticket? — A.  \res,  sir; 
but  we  don’t  get  it  all ;  we  report  the  tickets  and  the  report  is  sent  back 
by  the  officers  of  the  road. 

Q.  Am  I  to  understand  that  if  I  were  in  Indianapolis  to  day  I  could 
give  you  the  money  to  buy  my  ticket  and  you  could  buy  and  keep  two 
dollars  of  that  money  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  I  think  I  will  help  some  of  my  friends  out  there  the  next 
time  I  travel.  Bat.  Mr.  Morris,  do  I  pay  no  more  than  the  regular  rate 
in  such  case? — A.  No,  sir;  and  I  wish,  Senator,  you  would  help  us  out. 

Q.  Suppose  that  I  am  a  traveler  and  I  met  you  at  the  depot  in  Indianap¬ 
olis  and  gave  you  the  money  for  two  tickets,  you  would  buy  the  tickets 
for  me  at  the  same  price  that  I  could  buy  them,  but  you  would  get  two 
dollars  by  that  transaction,  ami  I  would  pay  nothing  more? — A.  Yes,, 
sir  ;  I  will  have  to  explain  that  to  you.  The  laws  of  the  city  there  are 
very  stringent,  and  have  driven  all  the  scalpers  out,  and  we  have  to  be 
very  particular.  When  parties  want  tickets  we  generally  take  them  to 
the  Union  depot  ticket  office  and  we  help  them  in  purchasing  their  tickets 
as  much  as  we  can,  and  in  that  we  manage  to  sell  tickets  east  and 
west. 

Q.  Did  Perry  have  any  benevolent  desire  to  help  you  by  applying  to 
you  to  purchase  his  tickets  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Could  not  he  have  gone  and  bought  his  tickets  for  himself  quite 
as  well  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  is  not  an  idiot,  Mr.  Morris? — A.  No,  sir;  I  should  not  take 
him  to  be  one. 

Q.  Is  that  the  only  ticket  operation  you  had  with  these  people? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  I  bought  two  tickets  only  for  him  and  Williams. 

Q.  How  much  money  did  he  give  you  ? — A.  Twenty  tive  dollars,  I 
think. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


197 


Q.  Was  that  to  pay  their  fare  from  Indianapolis  here? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  they  get  tickets  for  twelve  dollars  and  a  half? — A.  It 
was  not  first  class  fare,  it  was  emigrant  rates. 

Q.  Do  they  have  an  emigrant  rate  coming  east? — A.  I  believe  they 
have. 

Q.  Who  bought  those  tickets  ? — A.  My  brother  took  the  money  aud 
he  went  and  bought  them. 

Q.  Then  you  got  four  dollars  out  of  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  road  got  twenty  one  dollars  actually? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  a  pretty  good  commission,  wasn’t  it,  for  waiting  on  a 
couple  of  North  Carolina  emigrants? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  it  was  the  pay 
that  we  were  after. 

Q.  You  had  no  other  feeling  in  this  matter  except  to  make  the  money? 
You  have  no  particular  sympathy  or  charity  for  these  folks  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir  ;  I  had  charity  for  them  just  as  I  have  for  other  people  who  are  in  a 
suffering  condition. 

Q.  I  don’t  want  to  ask  you  an  unpleasant  question,  Mr.  Morris,  but 
isn’t  it  rather  queer  that  you  took  four  dollars  from  these  people  out  of 
twenty-five  when  they  were  in  a,  suffering  condition  ? — A.  I  don’t  con¬ 
sider  these  two  people  in  a  suffering  condition  ;  1  don’t  wish  to  be  un¬ 
derstood  as  saying  that  these  two  people  were  suffering. 

Q.  I)o  you  know  Mr.  Jorden,  the  register  in  bankruptcy? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  lie  is  quite  a  leading  Republican  politician  there? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  in  the  office  when  this  transaction  took  place? — A.  I  don’t 
know  that  he  was. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  his  giving  this  money  to  Perry  and 
Williams? — A.  I  don’t  know  anything,  sir. 

Q.  Didn’t  he  say  in  your  presence  that  he  would  guarantee  more 
money  at  the  same  rates  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  was  present  when  Perry  came  and  gave  you  that  twenty-five 
dollars  to  buy  the  two  tickets  for  himself  and  Williams  back  to  Wash¬ 
ington  ? — A.  Perry  and  myself,  and  I  remember  there  was  some  two  or 
three  other  customers  in  the  office,  but  1  don’t  recollect  their  names. 

Q.  Try  and  recollect;  haven’t  you  told  your  brother,  Levy  Morris, 
that  Jorden  gave  this  money  to  Perry  and  Williams  and  said  he  would 
guarantee  more  in  the  same  way? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  Mr.  Mills  present  at  this  transaction  between  you  and  Will¬ 
iams  and  Perry  ? — A.  I  am  not  sure;  he  might  have  been. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  any  conversation  with  Colonel  Jorden  on  this 
subject? — A.  I  think  J  did  some  days  after. 

Q.  What  was  that?— A.  1  was  asking  just  as  a  matter  of  conversation 
about  this  exodus  business.  I  casually  made  the  remark  myself. 

Q.  What  was  the  remark  about  it  ? — A.  This  exodus  business,  and 
the  people  coming  in  there. 

Q.  What  remark  did  you  make  to  him  ?  Did  you  tell  him  that  you 
were  making  a  little  out  of  it  yourselves? — A.  We  were  reading  some¬ 
thing  in  the  paper  about  it,  and  it  had  then  been  a  couple  of  weeks  after 
the  first  lot  came  in  there. 

Q.  What  did  Jorden  say? — A.  Well,  sir,  we  w'ere  talking  about  what 
Indiana  could  do  for  them  in  the  way  of  lands,  aud  I  said  there  was 
lands  enough  for  them  down  among  the  hills  in  the  southwest  of  Indian¬ 
apolis. 

Q.  Where  are  there  any  lands  that  are  available  to  these  people  in 
Indiana? — A.  In  Morgan  County,  in  the  southwest  part  of  the  State; 
there  are  some  hilly  lauds  dow  n  there. 


198 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Was  that  all  that  you  talked  about  ? — A.  That  was  the  principal 
matter  of  talk.  That,  and  our  business  transaction. 

Q.  Did  you  have  some  knobs  down  there  to  sell  them? — A.  Yes,  sir,  I 
had  some  that  I  wanted  to  trade  them  so  as  to  make  a  commission 
thereto. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  you  could  sell  them  for  per  acre? — A.  I  thought 
5  or  6  or  8  dollars. 

Q.  Did  these  immigrants  seem  to  be  in  a  condition  to  purchase  those 
lands  when  they  arrived  there? — A.  I  had  some  information — I  don’t 
know  whether  I  got  it  from  the  newspapers  or  otherwise — that  some  of 
them  bad  some  means  laid  up. 

Q.  Where  have  you  got  lands  at  5  to  8  dollars  per  acre  ? — A.  I  have 
several  thousand  acres  in  Monroe  County. 

Q.  You  have  none  of  those  knobs  and  hills  and  ridges  where  anybody 
can  live? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  there  is  some  pretty  good  lands  down 
there. 

Q.  Monroe  is  an  old  county,  is  it  not? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  pretty  well 
settled. 

Q.  And  they  have  cut  off  most  of  the  timber,  have  they  not? — A.  A 
good  deal  of  it,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  thought  if  you  could  get  some  of  those  knobs  off  on  these 
North  Carolina  emigrants,  it  would  be  a  good  thing? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but 
I  don’t  know  that  I  took  any  particular  pains  to  do  it.  It  was  a  busi¬ 
ness  matter  as  we  talked  of  it. 

Q.  You  thought  it  would  relieve  their  condition  and  better  them,  as 
they  term  it,  to  put  them  down  there  on  those  limestone  ridges,  where 
nobody  else  will  venture  to  live  ? — A.  1  don’t  know,  sir,  that  there  is 
much  limestone  down  there. 

Q.  Does  not  that  county  lie  on  a  limestone  bed  almost? — ^A.  I  don’t 
know,  sir.  I  think  I  have  the  advantage  of  you  in  a  knowledge  of  In¬ 
diana,  although  you  are  a  real-estate  agent. 

Q.  Yes,  sir,  you  may  have.  Do  you  now  remember  whether  Mills 
was  present  at  the  time  of  this  conversation,  or  not? — A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  of  Jorden  raising  any  money  other  than  this? — 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Yrou  never  raised  any  yourself  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  contributed  any  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  many  of  those  people  have  found  employ¬ 
ment  who  stop  at  Indianapolis? — A.  I  think  some  of  them  have. 

Q.  Do  you  know  many  who  have  found  employment? — A.  I  think 
most  of  those  who  came  in  tirst  have. 

Q.  Where  ? — A.  They  are  scattered  about  over  different  parts  of  the 
State,  i  think  some  of  them  went  over  to  Terre  Haute  or  north  of  that, 
to  the  county  north  of  Vigo  County. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  much  complaint  of  their  not  getting  employment  ? — 
A.  1  have  not  heard  a  great  deal,  for  I  have  not  been  among  them 
much. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  You  are  pretty  well  acquainted  about  Indiana,  as  to  its  soil  and 
all  that? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  been  in  the  real  estate  business  how  long  ? — A.  Since 
1872. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  State  are  you  pretty  well  acquainted 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


199 


with  ? — A.  Take  it  from  the  vicinity  of  Terre  Haute,  through  Richmond, 
and  all  of  the  north. 

Q.  Is  it  one-third  or  one  half  of  the  State  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  from  one- 
third  to  one-half. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  ludiana  full  to  the  extent  of  her  capacity  to  sup¬ 
port  people  ? — A.  O,  no,  sir. 

Q.  It  has  about  two  million  of  population  now  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think 
in  that  vicinity. 

Q.  You  think  she  has  capacity  to  support  five  million,  do  you  not  ? — 
A.  I  think  the  population  could  be  easily  double  what  it  is  now. 

Q.  From  your  observations  and  knowledge  of  the  resources  and  char¬ 
acter  of  the  State,  and  the  employment  for  labor,  present  and  prospect¬ 
ive,  what  do  you  say  would  be  the  effect  of  an  emigration  to  that  State 
of  ten  to  twenty  thousand  colored  people  with  their  families,  say  live  or 
six  thousand  laborers — would  it  be  a  disadvantage  to  a  State,  or  would 
they  just  drift  and  be  absorbed  in  the  population  ? — A.  I  think  they 
would  find  employment.  I  used  to  be  a  farmer  myself,  and  found  it  diffi¬ 
cult  sometimes  to  get  good  farm  laborers. 

Q.  When  were  you  a  farmer  ;  just  before  going  into  this  business  ? — 
A.  \res,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  demand  for  farm  laborers  is  as  great 
now  as  it  was  then  ? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  Indiana  is  as  good  a  State  to  go  to  as  any  other 
State  where  .you  have  got  no  government  land  and  a  laborer  has  to  de¬ 
pend  upon  his  muscle  for  his  living? — A.  AYs,  sir;  Ido. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  such  men  do  better  in  a  State  which  has  been 
settled  some  time  and  where  employers  are  to  be  found  among  men  with 
capital  who  want  labor  performed  than  a  new  State  under  the  process 
of  settlement — is  it  not  a  fact  that  such  a  State  is  better  in  a  way  to  give 
labor  to  the  penniless  poor  man  ? — A.  AYs,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything,  Mr.  Morris,  of  this  being  in  any  sense 
whatever  a  political  movement? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  Republican  or  Democrat  who  has  political 
ends  in  engaging  in  and  promoting  this  exodus? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.  You  have  heard  some  expressions  of  that  sort? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  the  Republicans  admit  or  disclaim  that  charge? — A.  It  is 
pretty  well  disclaimed  by  Republicans. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  any  Democrat  is  really  afraid  that  the  Republi¬ 
cans  are  trying  to  colonize  the  States  in  order  to  carry  the  election  ?— - 
A.  It  would  seem  that  there  are  some  who  do. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  yourself  ? — A.  No,  sir.  I  have  heard  rumors 
to  that  effect  and  seen  such  statements  in  the  newspapers. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  is  mere  political  twaddle,  or  do  you  think 
these  people  really  believe  it? — A.  That  is  my  impression. 

Q.  What  is  ? — A.  That  it  is  mere  talk  for  the  sake  of  political  capital ; 
that  is  what  I  think. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  fact  going  to  show  that  Republicans  are  en¬ 
gaging  in  this  emigration  in  order  to  strengthen  themselves  politically? 
— A.  I  don’t  know  of  a  single  fact. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  You  stated  to  Senator  Blair  that  you  thought  ten  to  twenty  thou¬ 
sand  people,  with  five  to  six  thousand  voters  among  them,  emigrating 
into  Indiana  would  not  incommode  the  people  of  that  State. —  A.  No, 
sir  ;  not  if  they  were  scattered  about  much. 


Q.  You  are  a  Republi 


nn  ') 
V'tU  •  * 


Y( 


sir 


200 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  A  square  one  ? — A.  I  try  to  be  a  square  one. 

Q.  Well,  Mr.  Morris,  tbe  Republicans  generally  in  Indiana  are  of  the 
opinion,  are  they  not,  that  fifteen  or  twenty  thousand  negroes  brought 
in  the  State  would  not  hurt  us? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir;  lain  not  a 
politician,  and  I  attend  to  my  own  business. 

Q.  You  are  expressing  your  views  here,  and  you  have  not  heard  any 
people  belonging  to  that  party  express  themselves  differently  from  that, 
have  you  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  have  not  heard  any  different  expressions. 

Q.  Yrou  have  not  seen  any  statements  in  the  Republican  newspapers 
condemning  it? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Some  of  them  rather  encourage  it? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  so. 

Q.  They  rather  encourage  the  negroes  to  come  than  condemn  their 
coming? — A.  1  believe  so,  sir. 

By  Senator  Blair: 

Q.  Yrou  don’t  find  the  Republican  party  condemning  the  emigration 
of  the  Irish  there  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  rather  encourage  it? — A.  Yes,  sir;  good  Irish  farm  labor  is 
desired.  I  have  employed  them  myself. 

Q.  Did  you  do  that  for  political  purposes? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  the  Irish  are  pretty  nearly  all  Democrats  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I 
think  so. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Will  you  say  now,  Mr.  Morris,  that  you  know  of  no  Republican 
newspaper  or  speaker  you  have  heard  encouraging  the  Irish  to  come 
to  Indiana? — A.  I  am  not  speaking,  Senator,  of  the  politicians  ;  I  am 
speaking  of  farmers  and  what  my  experience  was  at  the  time  I  was  a 
farmer. 

Q.  Is  there  any  expressions,  or  was  there,  among  the  farmers  in  favor 
of  it? — A.  1  was  speaking,  Senator,  in  reference  to  the  character  of  the 
labor;  as  far  as  my  observation  was  before  I  left  the  farming,  it  was  that 
the  farmers  wanted  good  Irish  laborers,  as  they  were  good  hands;  they 
would  employ  good  colored  men,  but  it  was  difficult  to  get  them;  but  if 
they  could  get  Irishmen  they  always  liked  it. 

Q.  Where  were  you  farming  at? — A.  At  Six  Points,  twelve  miles 
west  of  this  place. 

Q.  When  was  that  ? — A.  Up  to  1872. 

Q.  You  cannot  remember  any  newspaper,  you  say,  that  rather  encour¬ 
aged  Irishmen  to  come  to  Indiana? — A.  No,  sir;  1  cannot. 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  that  your  party  is  always  condemning  the  Democrats 
for  taking  up  the  Irish  aud  for  adopting  the  present  constitution  that 
allowed  a  foreigner  to  vote  after  a  residence  of  six  months  in  the  State? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  I  believe  they  have. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  Was  that  because  he  was  a  foreigner,  or  because  they  did  not  be¬ 
lieve  that  was  long  enough  residence  ? — A.  1  have  heard  objections  on 
all  those  accounts,  some  on  one  account  and  some  on  another. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  What  is  your  age? — A.  1  am  forty-one;  will  be  forty-two  this  • 
summer. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


201 


TESTIMONY  OF  THOMAS  P.  MILLS. 

Thomas  P.  Mills  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside  ? — Answer.  Indianapolis. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  there  ? — A.  Mr.  Morris  and  1  are  partners  in  the 
real  estate  and  railroading  business,  and  so  forth,  and  dealing  in  West¬ 
ern  lands. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  the  immigration  of  negroes  into  Indian¬ 
apolis  and  Indiana  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  as  I  know  much  about  it.  1 
know  there  have  been  a  good  many  people  go  there. 

Q.  How  many  ? — A.  I  could  not  tell  you.  After  they  once  pass  there 
I  lose  sight  of  them. 

Q.  Have  you  taken  some  interest  in  this  matter  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  been  in  favor  of  emigration? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  was  very 
much  in  favor  of  it.  I  told  the  boys  when  they  first  came  there  that  we 
wanted  20,000  “  bucks,”  buck  niggers,  in  Indiana  this  year. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  that  .you  wanted  20,000  men  ? — A.  lres,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  no  use  for  women  ? — A.  No,  sir;  we  had  no  special  use 
for  them. 

Q.  Yrou  had  no  idea  of  labor  connected  with  this  matter? — A,  No,  sir; 
I  had  no  idea  of  labor.  I  was  looking  for  votes. 

Q.  You  wanted  these  20,000  “bucks”  to  vote  ? —  A.  I  wanted  them  to 
vote,  of  course. 

Q.  Are  you  a  Republican  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  am. 

Q.  And  you  thought  if  you  could  get  20,000  “bucks”  you  would  slay 
us  ? — A.  I  thought  we  would  get  away  with  you  everlastingly. 

Q.  Have  you  mixed  with  them  much  since  they  came  here  ? — A.  The 
colored  folks  ? 

Q.  Yes.— A.  No,  sir;  except  at  the  depot.  We  have  one  office  near 
the  depot,  and  when  a  gang  was  coming  in  I  would  go  down  there  and 
see  them. 

Q.  Have  they  come  in  as  fast  as  you  desired  ? — A.  They  have  not 
come  in  as  I  wanted  them  to. 

Q.  There  have  been  rather  more  women  and  children  than  you 
wanted? — A.  Y"es,  sir;  they  have  rather  overdone  the  thing  in  the 
women  and  children. 

Q.  Have  you  noticed,  Mr.  Mills,  whether  any  considerable  party  of 
them  have  to  be  taken  care  of  by  charity  ? — A.  Well,  I  could  not  tell 
you,  Mr.  Senator.  I  have  not  been  at  their  headquarters  much. 

Q.  Have  you  been  called  upon  to  contribute  to  their  support  ? — A. 
Not  largely. 

Q.  Were  you  raised  on  a  farm  as  well  as  your  partner  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Of  course  you  think  these  20,000  “  bucks”  could  be  scattered  around 
and  get  employment  throughout  the  State? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  thought  we 
could  get  employment  for  them  if  we  scattered  them  pretty  thin. 

Q.  You  mean  in  close  counties? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  in  close  counties  and 
where  there  are  cheap  lands. 

Q.  Then  you  mean  to  scatter  them  in  close  counties  where  there  are 
cheap  lands? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  when  Mr.  Blair  asks  you,  as  he  will,  whether  you  know  of 
anything  political  in  this  movement,  what  answer  will  you  make? — A. 
How  do  you  want  to  put  that? 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  whether  the  Republican  party,  or  leading  Re¬ 
publicans,  have  anything  to  do  with  this  movement?  I  will  put  it  in  a 


202 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


different  way — whether  these  views  of  yours  which  you  have  given  to 
the  committee  very  frankly,  are  shared  in  by  the  intelligent  Republi¬ 
cans  of  your  State! — A.  I  think  they  are,  as  individuals. 

Q.  You  are  pretty  well  read,  Mr.  Mills,  in  the  newspapers  of  the 
State! — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  read  them  pretty  generally. 

Q.  Now,  will  you  tell  this  committee  whether  you  have  ever  seen  an 
article  in  a  Republican  newspaper  opposing  or  condemning  this  move¬ 
ment  of  the  niggers  ! — A.  I  have  not. 

Q.  Do  you  read  the  Democratic  papers  too! — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  they 
everlastingly  go  for  it. 

Q.  Then  I  am  to  understand  that  the  Republican  papers  approve  of 
it ! — A.  I  should  think  they  did  from  their  tone. 

Q.  They  have  had  a  word  or  two  to  say  about  me  for  raising  this 
committee  to  investigate  the  exodus! — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  seen  your 
name  frequently  in  print. 

Q.  It  does  not  agree  with  the  Republican  press  to  have  the  causes  of 
this  immigration  shown  up! — A.  1  think,  from  the  tone  of  the  papers, 
they  think  it  is  a  joke,  and  that  there  is  nothiugin  it. 

Q.  You  say,  so  far  as  you  know,  you  think  your  views  are  substan¬ 
tially  shared  in  by  the  Republicans  of  ^our  State! — A.  I  think  they  are, 
as  individuals. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  an  article  in  a  Republican  newspaper  stating  as 
frankly  the  view  of  this  exodus  movement  as  you  yourself  stated  it  to 
this  committee! — A.  I  don’t  know  as  I  have.  1  was  simply  giving  my 
own  views  about  the  matter. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  talk  with  Mr.  Martindale  about  this  matter! — A 
Yes,  sir;  several  times. 

Q.  His  paper  is  not  disapproving  of  the  movement! — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Rather  encouraging  it,  is  he  not! — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  should  say  he 
was. 

Q.  He  has  always  announced  that  there  was  plenty  of  room  in  Indiana 
for  negroes  !— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  they  could  get  employment! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  there  was  good  times  there! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  they  ought  to  get  out  of  Egypt  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Colonel  Jordan,  register  of  bankruptcy  ! — A.  Very 
well,  sir;  I  have  known  him  for  quite  a  while. 

Q.  You  may  state  whether  you  heard  any  conversation  that  he  had 
in  your  office,  or  anywhere  else,  in  regard  to  this  matter  of  the  exodus, 
as  it  is  called. — A.  I  do  not  think  I  talked  with  him  in  my  office.  I  saw 
him  in  there  one  day,  but  I  do  not  think  I  talked  with  him  there;  but  I 
was  at  his  office. 

Q.  Well,  what  was  the  conversation  yon  heard  ! — A.  Well,  I  took  a 
party  of  these  people  there,  and  one  of  them — I  would  not  be  certain 
which — but  I  introduced  them  to  Mr.  Jordan  in  his  own  office.  I  called 
to  him  that  they  could  tell  their  own  story,  and  that  I  was  in  a  hurry, 
and  I  took  my  departure. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  talk  with  Colouel  Jordan  afterward  ! — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
I  did. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  talk  with  him  about  raising  money  and  buying  tick¬ 
ets  for  these  men! — A.  No,  sir;  I  had  no  talk  with  Colonel  Jordan  in 
reference  to  this. 

Q.  What  did  he  ever  tell  you  in  regard  to  his  giving  them  money  and 
buying  tickets,  and  that  he  could  raise  more  money  for  the  same  pur¬ 
pose  ! — A.  I  don’t  know  as  I  could  tell  precisely.  The  day  that  they 
wanted  these  tickets  they  went  up  to  Colonel  Jordan’s  office,  because  I 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


203 


stepped  out  of  my  place  and  showed  them  where  it  was.  They  were  in 
want  of  means  to  come  back  to  Washington,  and  I  showed  them  where 
his  office  was,  and  they  went  up  there,  and  when  they  came  back  they 
had  the  money  themselves,  but  where  they  got  it  I  don't  know. 

Q.  What  did  they  say  as  to  their  money  when  they  first  talked  to 
you  ? — A.  They  were  wanting  help. 

Q.  And  you  pointed  out  the  office  of  Colonel  Jordan  to  them  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  they  went  to  see  Colonel  Jordan  and  Colonel  Dudley.  They 
wanted  to  see  Colonel  Dudley,  but  I  didn’t  know  him  very  well,  and  I 
didn’t  introduce  them  to  him. 

Q.  Dudley  is  United  States  marshal  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  I  didn’t  in¬ 
troduce  them  to  him. 

Q.  After  they  went  to  see  Colonel  Jordan  they  came  back  directly  and 
had  the  money? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  came  in  time  to  make  the  train. 

Q  Is  there  any  other  financial  transaction  in  reference  to  this  matter 
with  which  you  are  acquainted  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  money  raised 
to  send  them  to  Greeneastie. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  exactly  how  many 
went,  but  I  know  it  was  a  grand  day  in  the  business. 

Q.  It  was  a  pretty  good  day  iu  the  business? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  raised  that  money  to  take  them  to  Greeneastie  ? 
— A.  Well,  I  went  down  to  see  in  reference  to  it,  because,  as  Mr.  Morris 
has  told  you,  we  wanted  to  get  the  number  of  the  tickets,  and  I  heard 
th(  re  was  quite  a  number  of  them  down  there,  and  I  went  to  see  how 
many  of  them  there  were  and  where  they  were  going.  I  went  down 
there  and  saw  about  it,  and  I  spoke  to  Mr.  Reynolds  about  it. 

Q.  What  occurred  betweeu  you  and  Reynolds  ? — A.  He  reached  me 
the  tickets  and  I  took  the  numbers ;  and  1  asked  if  they  were  fixed,  and 
he  said  :  ‘T  have  sent  a  man  up  town  to  get  the  money  and  fix  them.” 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  mauy  tickets  there  were  ? — A.  There  were 
from  50  to  75. 

Q.  Are  you  personally  acquainted  with  Mr.  Reynolds  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  position  does  he  hold  ? — A.  He  is  mail  agent. 

Q.  Where? — A.  At  the  Union  depot  at  Indianapolis. 

Q.  If  you  understand  it,  what  is  his  duty?  To  see  that  the  mail  is 
transferred  from  the  depot  to  the  office,  and  from  the  office  to  the  depot? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  a  very  important  office,  then  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  believe  so. 

Q.  Is  it  an  office  of  appointment  by  the  government  or  by  the  post¬ 
master? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  it  is  by  appointment  from  the  govern¬ 
ment. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Reynolds’  politics? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  he  a  Republican  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  he  came  possessed  of  those  50  or  00  tickets  ? — 
A.  Well,  sir,  he  bought  them.  I  saw  him  buy  them,  but  I  don’t  know 
where  the  money  came  from.  He  said  to  me  that  he  sent  up  town  for 
the  money. 

Q.  And  you  saw  him  buy  the  tickets? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  saw  him  in¬ 
side  the  office,  and  became  out  and  gave  me  the  tickets  and  I  took  the 
numbers  of  them. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  the  fare  is  from  Indianapolis  to  Green- 
castle  ? — A.  It  is  something  over  a  dollar. 

Q.  A  dollar  and  fifty-five  cents  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  A  dollar  and  fifty-five 
cents  exactly. 

Q.  And  he  had  money  enough  to  purchase  fifty  or  sixty  tickets  at 
that  rate  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


204 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  And  you  don’t  know  where  lie  sent  for  the  money  ? — A.  No,  sir; 

I  saw  they  were  getting  uneasy  and  it  would  not  do  to  keep  them  there 
until  the  11  o’clock  train  that  night.  1  wanted  to  ship  them  off,  for 
people  were  talking  about  there,  and  it  would  not  do  to  keep  them  there. 

Q.  When,  therefore,  you  heard  them  talking  you  wanted  to  send  them 
off  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  John  G.  New? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  And  a  very  nice  gentleman,  too? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Chairman  of  the  Republican  State  central  committee? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  any  talk  with  him  on  the  subject? — A.  No,  sir; 
I  have  never  spoken  with  him  about  it. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  You  are  a  strong  Republican? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Always  have  been  ? — A.  Always  have  been. 

Q.  Always  going  to  be,  I  hope? — A.  lres,  sir;  1  hope  so. 

Q.  And  you  say  if  these  men  come  to  Indiana  and  vote  the  Republi¬ 
can  ticket,  you  are  in  favor  of  their  coming? — A.  Yres,  sir;  1  do. 

Q.  And  you  think  every  Republican  living  in  the  State  wants  every 
emigrant  to  vote  the  Republican  ticket? — A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  Democrat  iu  the  State  wants  emigrants 
coining  there  to  vote  any  other  than  the  Democratic  ticket  ? — A.  Well, 
judging  for  myself,  I  should  say  that  they  wanted  them  to  vote  the 
Democratic  ticket. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  Republican  party,  as  a  party,  is  engaged 
in  organizingor  using  any  systematic  effort  to  stir  up  discontent  among 
the  negroes  of  the  South  to  induce  them  to  come  to  Indiana  for  politi¬ 
cal  reasons? — A.  I  do  not  know  of  any  such  organization. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  such  effort? — A.  As  a  party,  no,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  kuow  of  any  prominent  Republican  from  Indiana  who  has 
been  to  the  South,  or  any  portion  of  the  South,  as  a  political  missionary, 
to  arouse  a  desire  among  the  negroes  to  come  to  the  North,  or  to 
Indiana,  to  vote  the  Republican  ticket? — A.  I  don’t  know  of  any  per¬ 
sons  who  have  been  dowu  there  except  our  own  De  La  Matyr,  who 
represents  our  own  district  at  home. 

Q.  Yrou  do  not  look  upon  him  as  a  representative  Republican  ? — A. 
Be  did  not  get  the  Republican  vote. 

By  Seuator  Voorhees: 

Q.  He  got  some  of  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  You  spoke  of  certaiu  tickets  being  purchased  for  the  transporta¬ 
tion  of  these  negroes  from  Indianapolis  to  Greencastle? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  distance  from  Indianapolis  to  Greencastle? — A.  Forty 
miles. 

Q.  You  stated,  I  believe,  that  you  had  some  connection  with  that 
business.  Now,  please  state  to  the  committee  just  what  it  was.  What 
did  you  work  for,  and  what  interest  as  a  railroad  man  have  you  in  the 
transportation  of  these  negroes? — A.  I  work  for  the  Vandalia  road. 

Q.  As  against  what  roads? — A.  The  I.,  O.  and  L.  or  any  other  road 
that  runs  in  competition.  It  was  to  our  interest  to  get  as  many  to  go 
over  that  road  to  Greencastle  at  full  rates  as  possible. 

Q.  Then  it  was  business  interests  that  you  had? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  commission  did  you  get  per  capita  on  those  tickets  ? — A. 
We  did  not  get  any. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


205 


Q.  You  stated  that  you  would  like  to  have  a  large  immigration  into 
the  State  of  Indiana.  Now.  will  you  tell  the  committee  whether  your 
interest  was  mainly  a  business  interest  "? — A.  That  was  not  my  only  ob¬ 
ject  and  desire;  my  principal  object  was  different  from  that. 

Q.  Then  it  was  to  get  them  to  vote  the  Republican  ticket? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  What  have  you  done  in  order  to  advance  that  object? — A.  Noth¬ 
ing,  except  to  blow  off  a  little  wind. 

Q.  You  have  put  no  money  into  it  ? — A.  Not  to  amount  to  any¬ 
thing. 

Q.  What  have  you  given  ? — A.  Well,  $3  or  $4  or  $5. 

Q.  That  is  to  those  who  happened  along? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  would 
pass  me  and  ask  for  a  quarter  or  half  dollar  and  I  would  give  it. 

Q.  That  is  mere  pocket  charity  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  sent  any  money  South,  or  assisted  in  sending  any 
money  Soutn  or  any  agents;  or  have  you  printed  or  circulated  any  doc¬ 
uments  in  the  South  to  induce  negroes  to  go  to  Indiana? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  I)o  you  not  suppose  that  you  feel  as  active  an  interest  as  any  Re¬ 
publican  in  the  State  in  the  emigration  of  these  negroes? — A.  I  do  not 
see  how  a  man  could  feel  any  more  than  I  do. 

Q.  You  are  as  warm  and  ardent  a  Republican  as  any  man  in  the  State  ? 
— A.  I  believe  I  am. 

Q.  Now,  then,  Mr.  Mills,  since  these  emigrants  came  there,  what  has 
been  their  condition  up  to  this  date? — A.  Financially? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  How  have  they  been  disposed  of;  how  taken  care  of? — 
A.  There  are  some  of  them  that  I  have  heard  about — I  suppose  you 
have  heard  about  them,  too — who  went  to  Shelbyville.  A  great  many 
of  them  went  to  Greeucastle,  and  some  to  Rockville,  and  some  of  them 
to  Senator  Yoorhees’  city.  Some  of  them,  I  believe,  went  to  Greenfield, 
and  some  of  them  into  Hamilton  Couuty,  about  Marion. 

Q.  Then  they  have  been  scattered  pretty  well  through  the  State  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  have  they  gone  to  these  particular  localities? — A.  That 
would  be  a  matter  of  supposition. 

Q.  But  you  can  say  why,  according  to  your  understanding? — A.  I 
suppose  because  they  are  invited. 

Q.  By  whom  ? — A.  By  persons  living  there. 

Q.  Ho  they  promise  to  give  them  employment? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  not  all  of  them  substantially  found  employment? — A.  I 
know  nothing  of  that  except  what  I  have  heard. 

Q.  Well,  what  is  it? — A.  I  know  those  who  have  remained  in  the 
cities  have  not  found  employment. 

Q.  But  you  say  most  of  them  have  gone  to  those  other  places  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  those  have  pretty  generally  found  employment  ? — A.  I  have 
read  contradictory  statements  as  to  Putnam  County. 

Q.  But  generally,  you  say,  they  were  invited? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and 
most  of  them  have  been  employed. 

Q.  Of  course  individuals  in  certain  cases  will  suffer,  but  what  do  you 
think  of  the  most  of  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  individuals  will  suffer,  but  I 
think  the  most  of  them  who  are  there  now  will  fare  pretty  well. 

Q.  In  Indianapolis,  I  understand  you,  there  are  some  remaining? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many? — A.  I  could  not  tell  you.  There  were  a  lot  of  them 
quartered  in  a  church,  but  I  could  not  tell  you  how  many  there  were. 


206 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Were  they  all  at  one  place  ? — A.  They  were  at  two  different 
places,  and  I  think  they  rented  quarters  for  them  afterward. 

Q.  They  are  not  proposing  to  go  back,  as  1  understand  you,  but  to 
stay  until  the  season  opens'? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  with  all  their  hardships,  they  propose  to  stay  in  Indiana? — 
A.  I  have  not  heard  of  any  of  them  who  wanted  to  go  back. 

Q.  Then  with  all  their  hardships,  Indiana  is  better  than  North  Caro¬ 
lina  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir  ;  I  have  not  spoken  to  any  of  them  except 
as  they  came  to  Indianapolis. 

Q.  Then  you  know  in  a  general  way  that  these  ^people  who  are  there 
propose  to  remain  until  they  find  work? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  They  do  not  propose  to  go  back? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  There  have  been  individual  instances  of  these  men  returning 
I  home? — A.  I  do  not  know  of  seeing  a  single  case. 

Q.  Yrou  do  not? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  As  you  have  come  in  contact  with  them,  what  is  their  expression 
generally  as  to  their  condition  in  Indiana  as  compared  with  what  it  was 
in  North  Carolina? — A.  I  never  went  into  a  general  talk  with  them  as 
to  that. 

Q.  Then  I  understand  that  your  contact  with  them  has  only  been 
where  it  afforded  you  a  dollar? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  your  contract  has  been  in  a  business  way? — A.  Y"es,  sir. 

Q.  Whoily?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  your  Republican  feeling  for  them  has  been  purely  sentiment¬ 
al  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anybody  raising  money  to  send  to  the  South  or 
to  send  agents  South  iu  the  interest  of  the  exodus? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  all  the  money  that  was  raised,  so  far  as  you  know,  was  to 
help  the  destitute? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion  or  understanding,  from  general  reports,  as 
to  whether  colored  men  are  allowed  to  vote  their  sentiments  in  North 
Carolina? — A.  I  have  no  mind  on  the  subject;  I  can  say  from  the  re¬ 
ports  in  the  Republican  papers,  that  I  do  not  think  they  have  the  right 
to  vote  as  they  please. 

Q.  Y^our  opinion  is,  then,  that  they  do  not  have  a  fair  vote,  and  when 
they  are  allowed  to  vote,  they  are  cheated  out  of  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q,  And  as  a  Republican  you  wish  them  to  come  to  Indiana  and  have 
the  right  to  vote  as  they  please? — A.  Yes,  sir;  as  Indiana  is  a  little 
close  State,  you  know. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  some  of  these  negroes  going  to  Shelbyville.  Do  you 
know  anything  about  that? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  heard  some  of  them  lauded 
there. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  anything  of  a  demonstration  by  the  Democrats  when 
they  landed  here  ? — A.  I  did  in  the  papers. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  you  have  heard  of  Republican  papers 
criticising  Mr.  Voorhees  for  raising  this  committee? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  not  seen  Democratic  papers  doing  the  same  thing? — A. 
Y"es,  sir;  I  have  seen  a  few  slips  from  them. 

Q,  Then  you  have  seen  papers  on  both  sides  that  thought  there  was 
nothing  in  it? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  I  do  not  think  our  own  Democratic 
paper  has  said  anything  of  the  kind. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  mobs  and  threats  to  prevent  these  people 
from  coming  iuto  the  State? — A.  I  do  not  think  there  is  any  opposition 
to  them  in  Indianapolis. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


207 


Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  anywhere  else  in  the  State? — A.  Nothing, 
except  what  I  have  heard  from  the  newspapers. 

Q.  Then  those  facts  you  know  nothing  about? — A.  No,  sir. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  Do  you  not  understand  that  the  Democratic  opposition  to  the  ne¬ 
groes  coming  to  Indiana  is  because  the  negroes  were  expected  to  vote 
the  Eepublican  ticket? — A.  Well,  I  think  they  claim  that. 

Q.  Then  the  Republicans  are  in  favor  of  it  and  the  Democrats  are 
against  it.  Flow  do  you  account  for  that? — A.  I  think  the  main  oppo¬ 
sition  is,  as  it  is  stated  in  the  Democratic  papers,  that  they  think  every 
colored  man  who  is  employed  will  throw  the  white  man  out  of  employ¬ 
ment. 

Q.  I  did  not  ask  you  how  they  put  it. — A.  Well,  I  think  the  way  the 
negro  votes  is  the  main  object  with  them  in  their  opposition. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  But  you  say  the  negroes’  vote  was  your  main  object  in  wanting 
them  to  come  to  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  am  not  specially  fond  of  the 
negro  for  himself. 

Q.  You  do  not  hanker  after  them  ? — A.  No,  sir;  it  was  his  vote  that 
I  wanted. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  Is  it  not  your  opinion  that  a  good  colored  man  in  Indiana  is  better, 
on  patriotic  grounds,  for  the  country  than  a  white  Democrat? — A.  I 
would  not  like  to  answer  that.  We  have  a  very  line  trade  among  the 
Democrats,  and  I  have  a  number  of  friends  among  them,  and  I  have  a 
great  many  personal  friends  amongst  the  Democracy.  If  it  would  suit 
you  just  as  well,  Senator,  I  would  not  like  to  answer  that  question. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  You  say  you  know  this  man  Perry  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  interview  with  him  since  you  came  heri? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  he  talked  to  me  the  other  day  down  here. 

Q.  What  did  he  say? — A.  Well,  he  came  up  and  he  button-holed  me 
and  said  he  would  rather  I  would  not  say  anything  about  our  buying 
those  tickets  back  from  Indianapolis  to  Washington. 

Q.  What  did  you  tell  him  ? — A.  I  told  him  I  would  do  my  own  swear- 
ing. 

*  On  motion,  the  committee  adjourned  to  Wednesday,  10.30  a.  m.,  Feb¬ 
ruary  4,  1880. 


NINTH  DAY. 

Washington,  Wednesday ,  February  4,  1880. 

The  committee  met  pursuant  to  its  order  of  adjournment.  Present, 
the  chairman  and  all  the  members. 

The  taking  of  testimony  was  resumed,  as  follows: 

TESTIMONY  OF  E.  B.  BORDEN. 

E.  B.  Borden  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside,  Mr.  Borden  ? — Answer.  At  Golds- 
borough. 


208 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  What  is  your  business'? — A.  I  am  a  farmer  and  president  of  the 
bank  at  our  town. 

Q.  Mr.  Borden,  the  object  of  this  committee  is  to  investigate  the 
causes  of  the  removal  of  She  colored  people  from  North  Carolina  to  the 
Northern  States,  particularly  Indiana.  Will  you  please  state  to  the  com¬ 
mittee  anything  you  know  that  has  caused  them  to  make  this  move¬ 
ment? — A.  I  think  the  condition  of  our  colored  people  is  as  favorable 
as  that  in  any  Southern  State,  especially  in  which  I  have  traveled  ; 
quite  a  number  of  them  are  very  successful  farmers  and  own  considera¬ 
ble  property ;  there  are  no  complaints  heard  among  them  now  of  any 
injustice  being  done  them. 

Q.  Is  there  any  complaint  among  them  of  injustice  and  discrimina¬ 
tion  against  them  in  the  administration  of  the  laws  '? — A.  None  that  I 
know  of. 

Q.  Can  you  state  whether  they  have  had  the  same  chances  to  acquire 
property  and  the  same  enjoyment  of  their  political  rights  as  the  white 
people  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  exercise  them  freely  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  without  compulsion  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  any  of  these  men  gone  from  your  county  ? — A.  I  think  very 
few  have  gone  from  our  county.  I  know  very  few  of  the  men  who  have 
gone.  Some  women  and  children  have  gone,  but  most  of  those  who  have 
left  have  gone  from  the  county  below  us,  the  county  of  Lenoir.  There 
was  one  woman  who  left  my  plantation.  She  left  her  husband  and  went 
out  to  Indiana. 

Q.  Her  husband  did  not  go  ? — A.  No,  sir.  I  don’t  know  whether  she 
left  to  get  rid  of  him  or  what  motive  influenced  her  to  go. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  means  taken  to  bring  about  this 
movement  or  this  discontent — if  the  movement  is  due  to  discontent 
among  the  colored  people  ? — A.  There  are  one  or  two  colored  men  who 
I  understand  have  been  paid  to  influence  them.  I  have  been  told  by 
some  of  our  men  there  that  they  have  secret  societies  and  they  swear 
them  to  keep  quiet  about  what  they  are  doing.  One  of  the  draymen  in 
our  town,  as  man  who  used  to  live  with  me,  I  spoke  to  about  it,  and  I 
learned  from  him  that  they  are  not  leaving  our  place  much,  and  they 
were  excited  throughout  the  country  and  did  not  know  what  to  make 
of  the  movement.  I  asked  him  what  he  knew  about  it,  the  influences 
that  were  urging  them  to  go;  he  said  they  had  been  told  that  they  could 
get  big  wages;  that  they  could  get  one  dollar  and  a  half  and  houses  to 
live  in  and  plenty  of  work.  There  was  a  man  by  the  name  of  Taylor 
Evans  who  seemed  to  be  active  in  soliciting  them  to  go,  but  I  don’t 
know  what  inducement  he  held  out  to  them.  I  asked  the  man  whose 
wife  left  my  place  if  he  heard  from  her  and,  he  said  he  ’ad;  that  she 
had  gotten  a  situation  as  a  servant  in  a  house.  I  asked  him  if  he  in¬ 
tended  following  her,  and  said  he  did  not  know ;  that  she  was  to  write 
home  how  she  was  getting  along. 

Q.  You  say  that  very  few  have  left  your  county  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  very 
few. 

Q.  You  are  a  planter  yourself,  and  of  course  you  are  wTell  acquainted 
with  the  agricultural  people  in  your  section.  There  have  been  things 
said  here  in  relation  to  the  “  landlord  and  tenant  act.”  Will  you  please 
explain  the  operations  of  that  act  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  think  its  operation 
may  be  easily  inferred  from  the  act  itself. 

Q.  It  has  been  said  that  men  were  not  allowed  to  have  their  gardens 
when  working  ? — A.  That  is  a  mistake  ;  so  far  as  I  know,  even  those  who 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


!09 


hire  for  wages  have  a  house  and  wood  free;  have  a  garden-patch  and 
are  allowed  to  raise  pigs  and  hogs. 

Q.  All  these  things  are  not  allowed  them  free,  are  they  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ; 
even  those  who  rent  have  it.  The  customary  rental  with  ns  is  that  the 
tenant  pays  one-third  of  the  crop  of  cotton  and  corn.  In  some  places 
the  lands  are  not  so  good  and  the  rent  is  lower,  but  at  points  not  far  re¬ 
moved  from  town  we  usually  get  one-fourth  of  the  cotton  and  one-third 
of  the  corn. 

Q.  Don’t  they  pay  in  portions  of  their  other  raising,  such  as  hogs  ? — 
A.  Iso,  sir;  they  pay  no  portion  of  anything  else  that  they  raise;  they 
generally  fatten  their  hogs  oil  the  crop. 

Q.  Then  they  oidy  pay  a  certain  proportion  of  the  leading  crops  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  is  it  when  the  landlord  furnishes  all  the  stock  and  implements 
and  supplies  necessary  for  the  raising  of  the  crop  ? — A.  In  that  case  I 
give  them  one-third  of  all  they  raise. 

Q.  That  is,  you  say,  when  you  furnish  everything  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  explain  the  operations  of  the  landlord  and  tenant  act,  as 
it  is  called,  and  state  what  it  was  intended  to  subserve  ? — A.  It  was  only 
for  the  protection  of  the  landlord  in  the  collection  of  his  rents.  It  goes 
that  far  and  no  farther.  I  have  known  of  no  oppression  arising  from  it. 
I  don’t  know  that  I  have  ever  read  it  in  full,  but  1  know  it  gives  the 
landlord  a  lieu  upon  the  tenant’s  property  and  crop  so  far  as  the  rent 
goes  and  no  farther,  and  after  it  is  paid  the  tenants  can  do  as  they  please 
with  the  balance  of  their  crop. 

Q.  What  is  the  personal  exemption  t — A.  Five  hundred  dollars  of  per¬ 
sonally  and  a  thousand  of  realty. 

Q.  If  that  landlord  and  tenant  act  were  not  in  force  it  would  be  im¬ 
possible  for  the  landlord  to  collect  his  rent  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  the  ten¬ 
ant  could  go  to  the  merchants  and  mortgage  his  crop  and  the  landlord 
would  lose  his  rent. 

Q.  That  law  operates  oil  blacks  and  whites  alike  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and 
it  prevents  the  landlord  from  being  cheated  if  he  has  a  dishonest  tenant 
who  would  go  and  mortgage  his  crop,  thereby  giving  the  merchant  a 
prior  lien  over  the  landlord.  Lt  only  protects  the  landlord  so  far  as  his 
rent  goes  and  no  farther. 

Q.  What  is  the  state  of  feeling  between  the  white  and  black  people 
in  that  country  ? — A.  It  is  very  kind. 

Q.  There  are  no  asperities  between  the  races? 
ticularly. 

Q.  Are  there  any  race  difficulties  of  any  note  ?- 
quietest  days  we  have  are  the  days  of  election, 
and  vote  as  they  please,  and  generally  vote  first. 

Q.  They  are  good  voters,  are  they  not?— A.  Yes,  sir,  and  generally 
go  one  way ;  and  of  late  years  I  think  there  has  been  very  little  effort 
made  among  the  white  people  to  get  them  to  vote  with  them. 

Q.  What  is  the  state  of  parties  in  your  county? — A.  Our  county  is 
very  close.  I  think  there  is  only  one  or  two  hundred  difference,  and  it 
has  gone  Republican  sometimes. 

Q.  By  a  small  majority  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Blair: 

Q.  You  speak  of  the  removal  of  the  colored  people  from  your  State. 
Please  tell  us  to  what  extent  any  movement  of  the  kiud  exists. — A.  [ 
only  know  of  that  from  the  statement  of  the  ticket  agent  at  our  place. 
I  think  he  stated  that  he  had  only  sold  some  six  hundred  tickets. 

14  EX 


-A.  No,  sir ;  not  par- 

-A.  None  at  all.  The 
The  colored  people  go 


210 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  A ud  you  understand  that  is  one  of  tlie  principal  points  of  depart¬ 
ure? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  in  it  that  you  could  possibly  characterize  as  a 
removal,  in  general  terms? — A.  No,  sir;  not  yet ;  but  it  seems  to  un¬ 
settle  all  the  other  colored  people.  There  was  a  man  there  who  came 
to  me  lor  advice.  lie  had  accumulated  property  and  had  a  house  and 
lot,  and  lived  with  me.  He  came  and  wanted  to  borrow  some  money 
from  me  as  president  of  the  bank  to  buy  a  lot  from  a  man  who  was 
going  to  Indiana.  I  asked  him  why  he  was  going,  and  he  said  he  did 
not  know.  He  said  he  could  buy  the  lot  very  low,  and  it  was  a  good 
investment.  He  came  and  I  let  him  have  the  money.  He  came  after- 
wards  when  this  crowd  of  three  or  four  hundred  left  and  said,  “I  guess 
1  won’t  buy  that  lot.”  I  asked  him  why,  and  he  said,  “The  colored 
people  are  ail  going  to  leave  here,  it  seems,  and  I  may  have  to  go  myself 
anyhow.” 

Q.  When  was  this? — A.  When  the  movement  first  began. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  this? — A.  Two  months  ago.  I  said  to  him, 
“You  may  have  to  go  yourself?”  and  he  said,  “Yes;  I  do  not  under¬ 
stand  it  as  it  is.”  I  said,  “There  is  no  compulsion  about  it,  is  there?  ” 
and  he  seemed  to  avoid  the  question. 

Q.  You  speak  of  that  case  in  particular;  but  don’t  you  think  there  is 
a  very  general  state  of  unrest  among  them? — A.  Yes,  sir;  there  was 
up  to  two  or  three  weeks  ago,  but  now  they  seem  to  have  quieted  down  ; 
but  up  to  the  first  of  the  year  there  was  a  general  feeling  of  disquiet. 

Q.  Yrou  do  not  think  that  at  the  present  time  there  is  anything  to  be 
alarmed  at  in  the  movement?— A.  No,  sir;  they  are  quiet  now,  and 
quite  a  number  of  letters  have  been  received  from  those  who  have  gone, 
some  of  which  are  favorable  and  some  of  which  are  not  very  favorable. 

Q.  Those  letters  have  a  soothing  effect  upon  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  agitation  and  alarm  there  lest  the  labor  system  of 
your  State  should  be  broken  up? — A.  Yes,  sir;  there  is  some  little  un¬ 
easiness  that  if  anything  serious  in  the  shape  of  the  movement  should 
take  place  it  would  affect  the  labor  system  in  the  farming  districts. 

Q.  You  say  you  see  no  cause  tor  this  movement  ?— A.  No,  sir  ;  I  don’t 
know  that  there  is  any  particular  necessity  for  it. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  best  class  of  your  people  have  been  alarmed  at 
the  prospect  of  losing  their  laborers? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  have  been, 
but  I  think  they  are  not  now. 

Q.  You  think  so  far  as  North  Carolina  is  concerned  there  was  no 
necessity  for  a  Congressional  investigation  into  the  causes  of  this  re¬ 
moval  ? — A.  I  have  not  said  so,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  not  believed  it  was  necessary  for  these  people  to  go  ? — 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  good  people  who  believe  that  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  some  five  or  six  hundred  people  just  got  up  and  went 
off  without  any  cause? — A.  Yes,  sir;  without  any  good  cause. 

Q.  And  the  movement  appears  now  to  have  subsided? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
they  go  now  at  the  rate  of  about  ten  to  fifteen  at  a  time ;  at  first  there 
would  be  two  or  three  hundred. 

Q.  You  have  a  great  many  there,  have  you  not,  who  might  better 
their  fortunes  and  the  State  by  leaving? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  the  great  mass  of  the  colored  people  there  are  contented  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir ;  I  think  so. 

Q.  And  you  think  they  will  be  more  and  more  inclined  to  remain  as 
their  condition  improves? — A.  \7es,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  211 


Q.  It  seems,  then,  that  it  is  not  a  very  serious  matter  after  all  ? — A.  It 
looks  as  though  it  would  be. 

Q.  In  reference  to  this  landlord  and  tenant  act,  and  the  system  under 
which  your  farm  labor  is  performed- — -A.  I  understand  that  the  colored 
people  are  the  tenant  class  ;  but  that  law  would  apply  to  white  and 
colored  alike. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  white  and  colored  are  there  in  your  vicinity? — 
A.  In  my  vicinity  the  most  of  them  are  colored.  After  you  get  away 
from  the  city  they  are  mostly  colored.  They  also  have  a  habit  of  con¬ 
gregating  around  the  villages. 

Q.  What  is  the  proportion  of  white  and  colored  people  who  do  work 
under  this  act ;  that  is,  to  rent  land  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  the  proportion  ; 
1  should  think  three-fourtlis  of  them  are  colored. 

Q.  What  is  the  proportion  of  colored  people  among  those  who  rent 
land  in  the  State,  if  you  can  form  any  judgment  of  it  ? — A.  I  could  not, 
because  I  think  in  the  western  part  of  the  State  they  are  mostly  white. 
A  very  large  proportion  out  there  is  white. 

Q.  The  western  part  of  the  State  you  think  has  a  small  renting  pop¬ 
ulation  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  law  applies  principally  to  the  eastern  part  of  the  State  and  to 
the  black  people  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  applies  to  some,  but  not  to  all. 

Q.  But  as  a  rule  a  man  who  rents  land  is  a  colored  man? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  the  ordinary  rule  is  that  the  tenant 
shall  have  two-thirds  or  three-fourtlis  of  the  crop,  and  the  landlord  one  - 
third  or  one-fourth  ?— A*  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  And  each  takes  of  the  proportion  and  the  division  of  the  crop  ? — 


A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  tenant  of  course  handles  it  and  harvests  it,  and  the  landlord 
has  his  lien  on  it.  Who  markets  it?  Who  turns  it  into  money  ? — A. 
The  party  to  whom  it  belongs.  After  the  man  pays  his  rent  he  is  at  lib¬ 
erty  to  sell  the  remainder. 

Q.  He  pays  his  rent  first,  does  he  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  saves  out  two  or 
three  bales  for  a  horse  crop. 

Q.  What  is  that? — A.  That  is  for  twenty-five  or  thirty  acres. 

Q.  That  is  what  a  man  can  cultivate  with  one  horse? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q  He  has  everything  he  raises  except  the  bales  of  cotton  he  pays 
for  his  crop? — A.  Generally  the  first  picking.  He  pays  his  rent  and 
then  he  is  at  liberty  to  do  what  he  pleases  with  the  balance. 

Q.  About  what  season  of  the  year  is  this  division  made? — A.  If  you 
rent  for  a  certain  fixed  rental  it  is  made  in  October.  They  generally 
take  enough  out  of  that  crop. 

Q.  He  pays  his  rent  in  kind?— -A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  payment  consists  of  nothing  but  a  division  of  the  crop  ? 
— A.  Y^es,  sir;  where  a  man  rents  for  four  bales  he  pays  for  four  bales, 
but  he  goes  on  the  same  land  for  a  third  time,  and  that  is  not  divided 
until  it  is  kept  out. 

Q.  What  is  the  occasion  of  any  lien,  then,  by  the  landlord  on  the  entire 
crop? — A.  Well,  sir,  you  know  the  cotton  crop  is  about  three  months 
being  harvested.  The  landlord,  if  he  has  got  a  trusty  tenant  on  his 
place,  makes  him  keep  out  four  or  five  bales  which  the  tenant  tells  him 
to  take  on  his  rent.  The  other  he  keeps  to  use  for  himself,  and  when 
he  gathers  again  he  divides  again.  Of  course  the  crop  cannot  be  divi¬ 
ded  until  it  is  gathered.  Going  over  it  the  first  time  he  could  keep  out 
two  or  three  bale,s.  If  there  are  three  he  takes  two,  and  the  landlord 
one  if  he  knows  he  has  enough  to  pay  the  rent.  Two  or  three  weeks 


212 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


afterwards  be  goes  over  it  again  and  picks  out,  getting  two  or  three 
more  bales,  and  then  he  divides  it  again,  giving  the  landlord  his  portion 
and  the  tenant  keeping  his  portion. 

Q  I  do  not  see  under  this  operation  any  occasion  for  the  landlord’s 
lieu  — A.  Well,  sir,  suppose  a  landlord  was  not  protected,  and  suppose 
the  man  who  is  on  his  land  is  a  thriftless  tenant  and  has  used  all  his 
money  and  as  much  credit  as  he  could  get,  he  could  mortgage  his  whole 
crop  and  thereby  cut  the  landlord  out  of  his  rent  altogether. 

Q.  Is  there  any  principle  of  law  in  your  State  which  would  allow  him 
to  mortgage  more  than  his  interest  in  the  crop? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  un¬ 
derstand  me.  Suppose  the  landlord  does  not  live  on  his  place,  and  the 
land  he  rents  is  4  or  5  miles  from  his  place  of  residence;  the  tenant 
might  say  to  him,  “I  will  pay  you  out  of  the  last  crop  ”;  and  if  the  land¬ 
lord  is  not  allowed  to  watch  him  and  make  him  pay,  he  would  market 
all  of  it,  and  the  landlord  would  have  to  lose  his  rent. 

Q.  Then  the  law  is  to  guard  the  landlord  against  a  thriftless  tenant  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  is  made  a  universal  mortgage  for  that  purpose  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  And  on  the  principle  that  most  of  the  people  who  labor  are  thrift¬ 
less? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  know  as  to  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  place  in  the  wide  world  where  the  laboring 
classes  are  put  iu  a  condition  of  that  kind  except  it  be  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina  or  elsewhere  in  the  South  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  the  laws  of  other 
States. 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  that  in  the  State  of  North  Carolina  the  colored  la- 
liorers  are  kept  in  a  condition  of  poverty  and  not  allowed  to  accumulate 
property? — A.  I  never  heard  any  complaiuts  of  that  kind. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  be  understood  that  you  never  heard  any  com¬ 
plaints  that  this  a  landlord  and  tenant  act”  operated  harshly  upon 
them  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  never  did. 

Q.  You  are  a  planter,  I  believe,  sir  ? — A.  Yes,  sir, 

Q.  Do  you  know,  from  the  public  prints  and  other  sources  of  informa¬ 
tion,  that  there  is  a  burden  of. complaints  about  this  act? — A.  I  know 
the  politicians  have  been  agitating  it. 

Q.  I  mean  the  public  prints,  too. — A.  Well,  sir,  they  are  political 
sheets.  I  never  heard  of  any  complaints  about  from  the  negroes  them¬ 
selves. 


Q.  You  have  known  of  complaints  on  the  part  of  the  negroes  ? — A. 
Not  in  my  section. 

Q.  I  mean  in  the  State? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  know  as  to  any  in  the 
State. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  there  are  no  complaints  about  it? — A.  I 
don’t  mean  to  say  that  there  are  not  some  complaints,  but  I  don’t  re¬ 
member  to  have  seen  or  heard  of  any. 

Q.  Is  it  not  pretty  generally  a  fact  that  upon  the  interest  of  the  laborer 
in  the  crop  there  is  an  order  made  and  it  is  liable  for  it?  There  has 
been  a  good  deal  of  talk  here  about  these  orders. — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  the 
landlord  is  responsible  for  them  after  they  are  given. 

Q.  You  have  given  them  yourself? — A.  I  never  have. 

Q.  Tell  me  what  one  of  these  orders  is  like. — A.  I  don’t  know  if  I  get 
at  what  you  are  driving  at. 

Q.  But  ia  case  the  tenant  wants  credit  at  a  store,  if  the  landlord  is 
not  a  merchant,  the  landlord  simply  gives  him  credit,  or  rather  an  order 
on  the  merchant  for  five  dollars’  worth  of  goods ;  at  the  same  time  he 
charges  him  with  it;  in  other  words, although  the  tenant  puts  his  work 
in  the  crop,  it  cannot  be  divided  until  it  is  gathered? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


213 


Q.  And  he  must  live  all  the  time? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  is  without  any  property  himself  and  cannot  get  any  credit 
from  the  merchant  and  must  fall  back  upon  the  landlord,  and  he  gives 
an  order? — A.  Yes,  sir;  still  there  are  a  good  many  colored  men  who 
go  and  mortgage  their  interest  in  the  crop. 

Q.  That  is  subject  to  any  interest  the  landlord  has  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  knows  it  is  subject  for  the  rent? — A.  Transactions  like  that 
depend  altogether  upon  the  interest  of  the  tenant,  and  in  such  cases  it 
is  optional  with  him  whether  he  will  get  his  supplies  from  the  landlord 
or  directly  from  the  merchant. 

Q.  He  is  to  pay  just  what  they  charge  him  ? — A.  He  pays  the  same  as 
any  man  who  has  no  credit  of  his  own. 

Q.  Under  this  law  and  its  operations,  as  you  explain  them,  must  not 
these  laborers  be  kept  in  that  condition  all  the  time? — A.  I  think  its 
operations  are  the  same  both  as  to  the  wTites  and  blacks. 

Q.  Is  not  this  system  one  under  which  he  must  continually  labor  as 
hard  as  he  can  and  live  economically,  and  yet  end  every  year  without 
means  to  go  on  ? — A.  No,  sir.  I  think  not;  anyhow,  he  has  his  labor. 

Q.  Yes,  but  has  he  not  means  of  competing  for  fair  wages  ? — A.  Yes,, 
sir. 

Q.  Can  they  earn  more  than  enough  to  keep  them  i  i  bare  necessities 
of  life? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  can  make  money  by  pracvcing  economy  and 
save  what  they  earn. 

Q.  Yes,  but  the  point  is,  if  1  understand  you,  to  get  what  he  earns. — 
A.  I  infer  from  your  question  that  you  think  there  is  a  combination  be¬ 
tween  the  merchant  and  the  landlord  to  cheat  the  negro. 

Q.  Is  it  not  fair  to  assume  that  is  wrhat  it  is,  if  this  statute  assumes 
that  the  laborer  will  cheat  his  landlord? — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not  said 
that. 

Q.  But  here  is  the  statute  law  of  your  State. —A.  Yes,  sir ;  but  it 
applies  to  both  alike. 

Q.  Well,  to  change  the  question  a  little,  is  there  anything  in  this  act — 
a  power  in  the  hands  of  the  landlord,  or  of  the  merchant,  or  between 
the  two — to  keep  the  laborer  poor  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  not  at  all.  If  he  is  eco¬ 
nomical  and  saves  his  crop,  it  only  takes  them  one  year  or  more  to  be 
independent. 

Q.  Then  if  the  law  does  not.  operate  that  way  it  must  be  owing  to  the 
reason  that  human  nature  is  better  in  North  Carolina  than  elsewhere. — 
A.  I  don’t  know7,  sir,  as  to  that. 

Q.  Is  not  the  disposition  of  the  hiring  classes  to  make  the  best  they 
can  of  their  labor? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  suppose  it  is. 

Q.  Is  it  not  the  disposition  of  those  wrho  Hire  them  to  make  the  best 
terms  and  profit  possible  from  the  laborer  ? — A.  Yes,  rr;  the  best  they 
can  honestly. 

Q.  In  your  State  men  look  to  their  owm  advantage  i-\  making  a  trade 
with  others? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  human  nature. 

Q.  Would  a  landed  man  with  capital,  coming  in  contact  with  the  labor¬ 
ing  man,  have  an  advantage  over  the  laborers  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  then,  they  would  have  that  advantage  any  way,  and,  in  addi¬ 
tion  to  that,  you  have  protected  this  all-powerful  class  by  giving  a  mort¬ 
gage — a  statute  mortgage — ou  all  that  the  poor  produces  ? — A.  We  have, 
so  far  as  the  rent  goes. 

Q.  Is  that  not  all  that  it  gets  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  he  gets  two- thirds  of  the 
crop  when  he  furnishes  all  the  supplies  himself,  aud  one-third  when  they 
are  furnished  to  him. 

Q.  And  that  is  all  he  gets  for  his  labor  ?— A.  Yes,  sir. 


214 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


Q.  And  meanwhile  the  landlord  and  merchant  are  creating  indebted¬ 
ness  against  that  interest? — A.  Yes,  sir:  if  he  runs  his  credit,  they  are. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  in  that  they  have  an  advantage  which  would 
make  them  get  to  taking  all  his  productions  as  far  as  possible  ?■ — A.  No, 
sir;  I  cannot  say  that. 

Q.  Cannot  the  merchant,  taking  a  barrel  of  flour  worth  $G,  say  to 
this  man  that  is  obliged  to  have  it,  that  he  must  have  $10  for  it  ? — A. 
He  might  say  that  to  him,  but  1  think  the  man  would  not  buy  it. 

Q.  Then  he  must  starve? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  think  they  will  ever 
be  brought  to  that  condition. 

Q.  Don’t  they  have  to  use  their  credit  to  the  full  extent  that  they  can 
get  it? — A.  I  think  there  are  not  more  than  one  or  two  who  get  more 
than  $5  credit  out  of  a  merchant;  of  course  the  thrifty  ones  will  go  all 
they  can. 

Q.  Where  do  they  get  their  provisions  ? — A.  Where  they  are  not 
furnished  with  supplies,  they  get  them  as  I  stated  to  you,  by  raising 
hogs  and  cultivating  a  garden  and  small  patch.  A  thrifty  colored 
family  can  live  on  what  they  raise,  very  nearly.  If  they  have  a  half 
dozen  hogs  they  are  not  likely  to  eat  them  all  up  in  a  mouth.  I  think 
it  is  only  those  who  are  disposed  to  be  thrifty  who  rent  lands,  and 
others  hire  out  for  wages. 

Q.  What  proportion  hire  for  wages,  do  you  suppose? — A.  I  suppose 
nine-tenths. 

Q.  Then,  all  this  talk  about  renters  applies  to  only  one-tenth  of  the 
population  ? — A.  I  suppose  that  is  so  small  it  would  be  nearer  probably 
to  say  that  seventy-five  per  cent,  hire  for  wages. 

Q.  How  are  they  situated  ? — A.  I  only  know  of  them  in  my  own  sec¬ 
tion  ;  there  they  get  so  much  a  month. 

Q.  How  many  months  do  they  work  ? — A.  I  hire  them  from  January 
to  September  for  wages. 

Q.  Is  that  the  ordinary  rule  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  so. 

Q.  What  do  you  pay  them  ? — A.  I  pay  eight  to  ten  dollars  per  month 
and  give  them  half  of  it  at  the  end  of  the  month. 

Q.  In  money  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  eight  or  ten  dollars  per  month  is  his  rations? — A.  YYs,  sir  ; 
the  first  of  September  is  the  commencement  of  our  picking  season,  and 
they  all  make  more  money  in  the  fall  months  than  any  other.  They 
prefer  to  hire  until  September,  and  then  they  hire  out  to  pick  cotton  by 
the  hundred.  Any  good  picker  can  make  a  dollar  a  day,  and  gets  it 
every  Saturday  night.  This  is  the  universal  rule,  I  think,  in  the  cotton 
region. 

Q.  How  long  is  the  cotton-picking  season? — A.  From  about  Hie  tenth 
of  September  to  the  latter  part  of  December. 

Q.  That  is  about  three  months? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  they  cannot  make 
these  wages  in  the  latter  part  of  the  season,  because  the  cotton  gets 
scarcer. 

Q.  How  much  do  they  average? — A.  The  first  month  they  get,  on  an 
average,  a  dollar  a  day.  I  have  known  some  boys  ten  years  old  to  pick 
three  hundred  pounds  in  a  day,  while  there  are  some  men  who  won't 
pick  more  than  two  hundred. 

Q.  How  much  do  they  get  for  picking  by  the  hundred  ? — A.  Fifty 
cents.  In  picking  cotton  it  depends  more  on  skill  than  strength. 

Q.  How  is  it  as  to  the  remainder  of  the  season  ? — A.  As  cotton  gets 
lighter  they  don’t  get  so  much.  They  generally  pick  until  cotton  gets 
scarce  and  light  so  that  they  can  only  get  seventy  five  and  a  hundred 
pounds  a  day  ;  then  they  only  get  about  fifty  cents  a  day.  In  the  latter 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


215 


part  of  the  season  it  gets  colder  and  they  go  to  work  later.  They  go  to 
work  any  time  they  please,  and  generally  late. 

Q.  Docs  this  state  of  things  apply  to  the  average  laborers;  say 
three-fourths  of  the  colored  laborers  of  North  Carolina? — A.  In  the  east¬ 
ern  section  of  the  State,  I  think  it  does. 

Q.  There  is  not  a  very  large  proportion  of  the  crop,  then,  that  is  raised 
by  these  renters  of  land.  The  landlord  and  laborer  must  raise  the 
most  of  it  ? — A.  They  raise  the  larger  part  of  it,  of  course.  Men  in  the 
community  there  farm  different ;  some  entirely  under  the  tenant  system 
and  some  by  hired  labor. 

Q.  Take  this  laboring  class  who  hire  for  wages,  and  how  is  it  with  re¬ 
gard  to  their  accumulating  money? — A.  My  observation  and  experience 
is  that  they  save  a  very  little  money. 

Q.  Why  is  that ? — A.  I  suppose  it  is  because  they  have  no  disposition 
to  accumulate.  They  appear  to  be  satisfied  if  they  get  a  living. 

Q.  Don’t  you  suppose  that  many  of  them  think  if  they  remained  there 
they  would  do  no  better  than  that  ? — A.  I  think  it  satisfies  most  of  them 
anywhere  they  go. 

Q.  I)o  you  think  those  who  went  to  Indiana  were  well  satisfied  l — A.  I 
think  not,  or  they  would  not  have  gone. 

Q.  What  do  you  suppose  they  went  for  ? — A.  If  you  take  the  negroes 
as  a  class,  they  are  migratory  in  their  disposition.  I  don’t  think  they 
have  any  local  attachments,  and  it  is  very  rare  when  you  find  them  so. 

Q.  Then  this  exodus  is  simply  a  change  of  direction  ;  they  are  going 
North  instead  of  drifting  around  in  the  South  ? — A.  I  have  not  searched 
for  the  causes,  but  I  suppose  inducements  were  held  out  to  go. 

Q.  They  go  to  some  places  where  they  are  told  they  would  get  better 
wages? — A.  I  have  been  told  so;  there  was  a  man  sent  by  the  colored 
people,  or  rather  money  raised  by  them  to  send  him  out  to  view  the 
land — he  came  back — and  to  report  to  them  ;  he  reported  to  them  that  ho 
was  treated  very  differently  out  there  from  what  he  was  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina;  that  he  was  asked  to  ride  around  with  white  people  and  invited 
into  their  parlors  and  entertained  by  their  daughters. 

Q.  \rou  think  these  were  the  inducements  to  these  people  to  go? — A. 
I  think  it  is  natural  that  they  wanted  to  go  there. 

.  Q.  They  are  not  treated  that  way  by  the  white  people  of  North  Caro¬ 
lina? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  see  much  change  in  the  condition  of  timse  colored  people, 
or  any  likelihood  of  a  change  for  the  better? — A.  Yes,  .sir.  If  they 
have  a  disposition  they  can  improve. 

Q.  Is  there  any  such  disposition  among  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  1  know 
one  man,  a  colored  man,  who  started  after  the  war  with  nothing,  but 
whose  note  I  would  take  for  $2,000  anywhere. 

Q.  Where  does  he  live? — A.  lie  lives  twelve  miles  from  Golds¬ 
boro  ugh. 

Q.  But  you  see  no  general  disposition  to  improve  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I 
think  all  they  want  is  enough  to  live  on. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  a  majority  of  their  employers  take  from  them  in 
some  way  or  other  all  that  they  don’t  need  to  live  on  ? — A.  I  don’t  know, 
sir;  I  think  the  employers  pay  them  all  they  can  afford  to.  / 

Q.  The  question  is  whether  these-  dependent  classes  do  as  well  there 
as  they  would  anywhere  else  under  the  same  laws — don’t  you  think  that 
they  believe  they  can  do  better  when  they  leave  ?—  A.  I  never  heard 
the  matter  with  them,  but  I  don’t  think  they  would  have  gone  out 
there  if  inducements  had  not  been  held  out  to  them. 

Q.  Yrou  think  parties  go  there  and  tell  them  they  can  do  better  in  the 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


North,  but  you  don’t  know,  ns  a  rule,  that  the  information  they  received 
is  correct  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  anything  about  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  they  took  pains  to  find  out  about  their 
right  to  vote,  and  schools,  and  the  “landlord’s  and  tenant  act”  before 
going — some  of  them  are  bright  enough  to  do  that,  are  they  not? — A. 
I  suppose  so,  but  I  don’t  think  they  have  acted  much  on  that  informa¬ 
tion,  as  1  believe  it  is  only  the  most  thriftless  who  have  gone. 

Q.  You  have  no  objection  to  that,  have  you  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  don’t 
object  to  it. 

Q.  That  rather  adds  to  the  wealth  of  the  State  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  so  far  as  North  Carolina  is  concerned  she  does  not  want  this 
investigation  ? — A.  J  don’t  know  what  she  wants. 

Q.  It  is  fixing  these  paupers  if  it  stops  the  exodus? — A.  I  don’t 
know  that  the  object  of  this  investigation  is  to  stop  the  exodus. 

Q.  That  is  its  effect,  is  it  not? — A.  If  the  effect  of  this  investigation  is 
to  stop  the  movement,  of  course  it  keeps  them  where  they  are. 

Q.  Understand  me,  that  a' man  may  be  a  good  laborer  and  still  be  a 
thriftless  man  and  not  save  his  money. — A.  He  may  be  a  good  laborer 
and  still  spend  all  he  gets. 

Q.  If  he  spends  it,  though,  lie  spends  it  for  the  benefit  of  the  land¬ 
lord,  does  he  not? — A.  No,  sir  5  the  landlord  only  gets  his  rent  ;  the 
merchants  get  the  balance. 

Q.  Then,  really,  these  laboring  men  remain  there  as  a  benefit  to  the 
State  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  any  man  who  produces  is  a  benefit  to  the  people. 

Q.  Now,  have  you  not  struck  the  very  thing  that  gave  rise  to  this  in¬ 
vestigation,  and  that  is  a  disposition  to  keep  these  men  there,  even  if 
they  are  paupers,  and  keep  them  as  paupers  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  think  the 
people  do  not  want  paupers;  I  think  the  most  of  our  people  want  to 
see  them  do  well. 

Q.  They  do  work  well  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  prefer  them  to  white  labor. 

Q.  You  say  you  prefer  white  labor? — A.  No,  sir;  I  prefer  colored 
labor. 


Q.  Why  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  exactly  why;  I  believe,  as  a  rule,  they 
are  better  laborers  than  the  poor  whites. 

Q.  They  are  better  laborers  you  think  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  are  as  poor  as  the  poor  whites,  financially  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.; 
they  are  poor  everywhere. 

Q.  Most  of  them  will  remain  poor? — A.  Yes,  sir;  of  course  a  labor¬ 
ing  man  getting  eight  or  ten  dollars  a  month  cannot  get  rich  when  he 
has  to  support  himself  and  a  family. 

Q.  How  many  colored  men  out  of  a  thousand  in  North  Carolina  own 
homesteads  ? — A.  Very  few. 

Q.  Are  there  five  in  a  thousand  ? — A.  I  hardly  think  so. 

Q.  Well,  one  in  a  thousand  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  there  are. 

Q.  Are  there  two  in  a  thousand  ? — A.  I  cannot  give  the  numbers. 

Q.  How  do  you  suppose  it  is  in  Indiana? — A.  1  don’t  know,  sir;  but 
I  expect  it  is  different  there,  as  there  are  very  few  colored  people  in  the 
population: 

Q.  How  many  white  men  in  North  Carolina  don’t  own  homesteads? — 
A.  A  very  large  proportion  of  it. 

Q.  Then  as  a  rule  the  laborers,  white  and  colored,  are  without  home¬ 
steads  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  by  a  large  majority. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  it  is  in  Indiana?— A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  that  makes  a  man  feel  independent  like  owning 
liis  own  homestead  ? — A.  I  suppose  that  would  make  him  feel  so. 

Q.  Now,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  in  Indiana  colored  and  other  laborers 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


217 


may  earn  and  have  a  homestead,  while  in  North  Carolina  for  15  years 
they  have  not  been  able  to  acquire  one,  a  good  reason  why  they  leave 
North  Carolina  and  go  to  Indiana  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  that  they  have 
homesteads  in  Indiana. 

Q.  But  if  they  understand  it  to  be  as  1  have  stated  is  that  not  a  fact 
to  account  for  the  movement? — A.  I  don’t  kuow.  I  have  never  been 
in  Indiana  in  my  life.  I  am  not  posted  in  regard  to  tkatNtate. 

Q.  You  have  no  knowledge  of  the  condition  of  the  laboring  people 
except  about  Goldsboro’  and  its  vicinity  ? — A.  I  really  don’t  know  much 
about  the  condition  of  the  laboring  people  outside  of  my  State,  except 
what  I  have  seen  in  the  newspapers. 

Q.  Are  you  unwilling  to  see  men  with  the  hope  of  getting  home¬ 
steads  ?  It  operates  very  strongly  upon  colored  laborers  who  live  in 
North  Carolina  to  go  North  ? — A.  I  have  no  idea  the  majority  of  them 
have  thought  of  it.  I  don’t  think  they  had  any  such  idea  in  leaving. 

Q.  Your  opinion  of  the  tendencies  and  ambitions  of  the  colored  race 
are  not  very  high? — A.  No,  sir. 


By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Mr.  Blair  evidently  does  not  understand  the  landlord  and  tenant 
act.  It  was  made  for  the  protection  of  the  landlord  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  its  operation  does  not  benefit  the  tenant  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  I  think  so:  such  as  anything  else. 

Q.  The  fact  that  this  lien  there  gives  him  credit  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it 
gives  him  the  opportunity  of  having  something  at  the  end  of  his  time 
that  he  would  not  have  had  otherwise. 

Q.  Has  it  not  had  a  tendency  to  improve  them  as  farmers  and  in¬ 
crease  their  desire  to  farm  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  gives  the  landlord  his  rent  and  the  farmer  his  supplies? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  such  fools  in  North  Carolina  as  to  think  they  can  make 
more  money  out  of  paupers  than  men  with  money  ?— -A.  I  stated  that  X 
think  the  general  desire  of  our  people  is  to  see  them  thrifty;  they  are 
worth  more  to  us  when  they  have  property,  and  are  better  citizens  and 
laborers. 

Q.  Mr.  Blair  also  tried  to  get  you  to  say  that  this  act  was  passed  upon 
the  supposition  and  assumption  that  all  the  laboring  class  were  dishon¬ 
est,  and  the  landlord  needed  protection  against  them  ? — A.  I  don’t  think 
that  motive  actuated  the  legislators  to  vote  for  it. 

Q.  They  have  laws  in  New  Hampshire  against  stealing;  do  you  think 
that  all  Mr.  Blair’s  people  are  thieves  because  they  have  such  a  law 
against  thieves  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not  think  so. 

Q.  The  man  who  is  honest  and  who  pays  his  reut  does  not  feel  the 
operation  of  the  law;  it  is  never  enforced  against  him  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

(Note  by  stenographer. — The  testimony  of  T.  C.  Groomes,  of 
Greencastle,  Indiana,  was  taken  upon  this  and  the  next  succeeding 
day,  but  owing  to  delay  in  tbe  transmission  of  certain  extracts  to  be 
included  in  his  testimony  the  report  thereof  is  added  at  the  conclusion 
of  the  entire  testimony.) 

On  motion  the  committee  adjourned  to  Friday,  February  G,  at  10 

a.  m. 


218 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


TENTH  DAY. 

Washington,  D.  0.,  Friday ,  February  G,  1880. 

The  committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment.  Present,  the  chairman 
and  all  the  members.  The  taking  of  testimony  was  resumed  as  follows: 

TESTIMONY  OF  C.  S.  WOOTEN. 

C.  S.  Wooten  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Question.  State  where  you  reside.— Answer.  In  Lenoir  County,  North 
Carolina. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation  ? — A.  I  am  a  farmer  now. 

Q.  We  want  to  know  something  about  the  causes  of  this  exodus 
movement,  if  you  have  any  knowledge  of  the  movement. — A.  Yes,  sir; 
it  is  a  movement  started  there  on  my  plantation  (mine  and  my  brother’s) 
last  summer.  I  think  it  was  some  time  in  July  that  this  man  Perry 
made  a  speech  at  Kinston  urging  this  movement.  There  was  nothing 
said  about  it  much  then,  and  I  did  not  know  the  colored  people  were 
going  to  take  any  steps  in  the  matter ;  but  he  organized  on  mv  planta¬ 
tion  a  secret  society,  and  he  made  each  one  pay  him  twenty-five  cents 
to  become  a  member.  The  first  idea  was  to  go  to  Kansas,  and  the  next 
was  to  go  to  Indiana.  And  he  made  them  believe  that  they  would  go 
free.  He  said  the  government  was  going  to  pay  the  expenses  of  it,  and 
they  told  me  so.  I  said  to  them  that  it  was  not  so;  that  the  govern¬ 
ment  would  not  and  could  not  pay  their  expenses;  that  it  would  not 
pay  their  expenses  any  more  than  mine ;  and  I  said  to  them  that  I 
would  not  let  people  know  I  was  such  a  fool  as  to  believe  it,  and  I 
ridiculed  it,  so  that  I  heard  no  more  about  it  or  this  man  Perry. 
We  live  about  three  miles  from  the  railroad,  and  he  taught  a  free- 
school  there  in  the  neighborhood.  1  and  my  brother  had  about  fifty 
families  on  our  plantations.  He  made  that  his  headquarters  and 
organized  this  society,  and  then  would  have  secret  meetings.  They 
met  in  an  outhouse  there  and  put  out  sentinels  to  keep  people  awajv 
It  was  going  on  all  along  in  the  fall,  and  I  did  not  know  anything 
about  it  until  they  were  making  arrangements  to  get  off,  and  I  got 
one  of  the  boys  to  tell  me  all  about  it  after  they  had  left.  The  first 
crowd  left  my  place  about  the  middle  of  November.  There  was  one 
man  who  had  a  wife,  Allen  Smith  ;  he  went  on  to  make  arrangements  to 
secure  a  place  about  the  middle  of  November.  He  wrote  a  letter  back 
giving  glowing  accounts  of  Indiana,  and  telling  them  to  come  on.  And 
the  next  two  weeks  after,  I  think  about  the  first  of  December,  on  Sun¬ 
day  night,  all  of  our  negroes  bundled  up  and  wrent.  They  had  an  idea 
that  on  Monday  a  free  train  would  rim  from  Goldsborough,  and  they 
bundled  up  and  went  off. 

Q.  How  many  went  ? — A.  Thirty  families,  and  left  us  only  eight  or  ten 
families  on  the  place. 

Q.  How  did  they  go  % — A.  They  went  away  in  wagons,  and  walked 
some  of  them — any  way  they  could  get  to  go.  It  was  fourteen  miles  to 
Goldsborough  ;  and  after  they  got  away,  about  ten  o’clock,  we  got  a  tele¬ 
graph  dispatch  from  Allen  Smith  telling  them  not  to  come.  It  was  too 
late,  though,  to  stop  them,  but  some  of  them  didn’t  get  oft*;  some  of 
them  staid  there  two  weeks,  and  my  brother  went  and  showed  them 
the  dispatch,  and  they  would  not  believe  it;  they  said  we  had  manu¬ 
factured  it,  because  we  didn’t  want  them  to  leave.  I  said,  u  I  hope  you 
will  give  us  some  credit  for  sense,  for,  if  we  wanted  to  keep  you  by  man- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


219 


ufacturinga  dispatch,  we  would  have  had  the  dispatch  here  before  you 
started  oil.” 

Q.  Did  all  of  them  go  away  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  some  two  or  three  families 
came  back.  They  got  to  Goldsborough  and  could  not  get  off,  and  they 
caine  back  and  asked  if  I  would  let  them  come  back  to  work.  I  said, 
u  If  you  have  got  well  of  the  Indiana  fever  you  can  come,  but  if  you 
propose  to  still  keep  up  this  idea  I  do  not  want  to  have  you  demoralize 
the  other  hands.”  And  they  promised  that  they  would  stop  it,  and  they 
are  there  now  at  work.  This  fellow  Perry  made  a  speech  there  at 
Kinston,  and  went  on  to  tell  them  that  they  were  oppressed  and  cheated 
out  of  the  fruits  of  their  labor,  and  they  ought  to  go  where  they  would 
have  their  rights.  The  editor  of  the  Journal  there  commented  on  his 
speech  and  denied  it,  and  this  fellow  Perry  came  out  two  weeks  after¬ 
wards  in  a  letter  and  said  that  myself  and  brother  and  a  Mr.  Rouse  were 
exceptions,  and  did  not  cheat  our  hands ;  but  more  of  these  emigrants 
left  our  place  than  went  from  any  other. 

Q.  And  Perry,  you  say,  got  twenty-five  cents  from  each  of  them  ?— 
A.  Yes,  sir;  Perry  and  Williams;  they  had  lived  there  in  our  section. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  they  got  from  the  railroad  to  work  up  this 
movement'? — A.  I  heard  they  got  a  dollar  for  every  ticket  sold,  but  the 
negroes  said  they  paid  him  to  join  the  society  twenty-five  cents  each. 

Q.  Where  is  this  man  Perry  from  ? — A.  lie  is  originally  from  Chat¬ 
ham  County,  and  came  down  there  a  few  years  ago  to  teach  school. 

Q.  Describe  your  system  of  renting,  Mr.  Wooten. — A.  Sometimes 
we  hire  for  wages. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  pay  ? — A.  On  an  average  of  ten  dollars.  On 
my  plantation  I  and  my  brother  farm  together,  and  we  work  a  good 
many  hands.  We  allow  every  one  of  them  to  have  as  much  land  as  he 
wants  to  tend  for  himself,  as  we  have  plenty  of  land,  fifteen  hundred 
acres  of  clear  land  and  a  thousand  of  woods,  and  we  allow  them  that 
free  of  rent. 

Q.  Is  that  to  those  you  hire? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  work  with  us  to 
Saturday  dinner,  and  during  Saturday  afternoon  we  allow  them  to  use 
our  mules  and  plows  in  their  own  crops,  and  do  not  charge  them  any¬ 
thing. 

Q.  Do  you  pay  your  hands  ten  dollars  a  month,  give  them  a  house 
free  and  fire-wood,  and  land  to  tend  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  if  he  wants  ten 
acres  he  can  have  it. 

Q.  And  half  the  day  Saturday  and  your  teams? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  a 
good,  thrifty,  industrious  hand  will  make  $50  to  $100  extra  if  he  works. 

Q.  Do  you  hire  them  all  the  year  through  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  from  Janu¬ 
ary  to  January. 

Q.  During  the  cotton  season,  too? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  during  that 
season  we  have  to  take  in  extra  hands,  and  we  pay  fifty  cents  a  hundred. 
The  women  and  children  pick  out  the  cotton,  and  the  extra  hands  join 
in  ginning  and  picking. 

Q.  Is  that  about  the  general  rule  that  you  and  your  brother  pursue? 
— A,  Yes,  sir;  it  is  pretty  general  in  our  section  in  relation  to  hire. 

Q.  When  you  furnish  a  team  and  feed  it,  and  furnish  all  the  imple¬ 
ments,  you  give  one-third  of  the  crop  to  the  tenant  and  three  hundred 
pounds  of  bacon  to  the  mule? — A.  Some  give  two-fifths,  but  I  give 
them  the  choice.  They  can  take  two-fifths,  or  take  three  hundred 
pounds  of  meat  and  the  fourth. 

Q.  And  the  tenant  furnishes  only  his  labor? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  give  him  one  third  of  the  crop  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  of  cotton 
and  corn. 


220 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  That  does  not  include  bis  patch  that  he  cultivates  for  himself? — 
A.  No,  sir;  that  is  all  extra. 

Q.  And  that,  you  say,  is  the  general  system  through  that  country? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  your  average  lands  make  to  the  acre? — A.  Of  course  the 
lands  differ  somewhat.  If  you  have  small  lots  of  good  land,  you  gen¬ 
erally  make  four  hundred  pounds  of  cotton  to  the  acre,  but  we  make  an 
average  of  two  hundred  and  fifty  to  three  hundred  pounds  of  lint  cot¬ 
ton  to  the  acre. 

Q.  That  is  about  forty  to  fifty  bales  to  the  two  hundred  acres  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Suppose  an  industrious  man  rents  land  from  you,  how  much  can 
lie  make  ? — A.  1  require  fifteen  acres  of  cotton  and  twenty  of  corn  to  the 
plow,  and  that  land,  I  calculate,  manuring  it  as  I  do,  would  pay  $150 
worth  of  cottou,  and  the  land  will  make  three  to  four  barrels  of  corn  ; 
that  would  be  seventy-five  to  eighty  barrels,  and  he  would  get  one-third, 
and  that  would  be  about  $225  that  he  would  get,  besides  his  supplies, 
house-rent,  and  fire-wood,  and  all  that. 

Q.  Does  one  man  tend  that  much  ? — A.  He  cannot  do  all  the  work  ; 
one  hand  cannot  do  all  the  planting  and  manuring,  but  he  can  do  it  all 
up  to  chopping  time,  when  it  wants  four  times  going  over;  that  would 
cost  him  seven  dollars  each  time,  and  make  about  thirty  dollars  of  ex¬ 
pense;  he  would  have  to  hire  help  in  picking  out,  making  his  expenses 
probably  $00  in  all,  and  he  would  make  all  the  balance.  The  three  hun¬ 
dred  pounds  of  bacon  I  furnish  would  feed  him,  and  he  would  be  at  no 
extra  expense  for  food. 

Q.  Have  you  received  any  news  from  these  people  since  they  left  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  received  letters  from  them. 

Q.  Are  they  doing  any  better  there  than  they  were  on  your  planta¬ 
tion? — A.  No,  sir;  they  want  to  get  back.  There  is  one  letter  which  I 
got  from  a  negro  woman,  written  January  5,  18S0. 

The  witness  read  the  letter  as  follows : 


Mr.  S.  I.  Wootyn: 


Bell  union,  Putmon  Co.,  Ind., 

Janary  bth,  1830. 


Sir,  I  am  now  in  Ind.  in  the  worst  fist  I  ever  was  in  and  all  the  days  of  my  life. 
]  am  out  of  does,  and  I  have  not  got  no  where  to  go  and  uo  house  to  sta  in  day  aud 
or  night  and  no  boddy  wount  let  me  in  with  them  and  I  have  not  got  nothing  to  eat 
and  nothing  to  dow  to  get  not  a  cents  worth  for  myself  nor  nay  childdran  to  eat  no 
boddy  wount  implore  a  woman  that  have  childdran  and  no  husban  brother  Alien 
would  let  mo  stay  with  him  but  the  man  that  he  lives  with  dout  want  him  to  take 
no.orther  famlye  with  him  and  I  am  a  sufreu  here  plese  send  me  some  money  to 
get  back  with  to  your  plantation  and  I  will  work  with  you  till  you  say  you  are  pad 
and  never  will  leve  agaiu  plese  send  it  to  Bell  union,  Pntnom  Co.,  lad.  in  the  care 
of  Allen  Smith  and  I  will  come  as  soon  as  I  get  it. 

Mr.  Wooten  please  send  me  25  dollars  and  I  will  worke  with  you  till  you  ar  well 
pad  Mis.  Sarah  Smith  plese  write  soon  and  let  me  know. 


The  Witness.  Now,  I  received  a  letter  from  a  sister  of  this  woman, 
Chloe  Smith.  She  wrote  about  the  same  thing;  she  wanted  to  get 
back,  and  I  wrote  to  the  sheriff  of  Putnam  County  making  inquiries 
about  her.  This  is  the  reply  which  I  got  from  the  sheriff. 

The  witness  read  the  following  letter: 


Sheriff’s  Office,  Putnam  County, 

Grcencastle,  Ind.,  January  22,  13S0. 

Messrs.  S.  I.  Wooten  &  Bro., 

La  Grange,  N.  C. : 

Dear  Sirs  :  Your  favor  of  the  19th  inst.  is  received,  and  contents  noted.  After  quite 
a  hunt  1  found  Chloe,  aud  the  old  woman  is  iu  a  most  deplorable  condition.  She 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


221 


makes  a  most  piteous  appeal  to  your  sympathy  for  help.  I  have  just  had  a  talk  with 
our  railroad  agent  in  regard  to  the  most  available  route  aud  the  cost,  Ac.  They  can 
only  procure  tickets  as  far  as  Washington  City,  aud  the  cheapest)  rates  are  $20.05  for 
each  person  over  ten  years  of  age.  It  will  cost  Chloe’s  son  full  fare,  $20.05.  Sarah 
Smith  has  gone  out  to  the  country,  some  lifteen  miles,  with  Allen  Smith.  Their  post- 
office  address  is  Belle  Union,  Putnam  County.  I  think  she  can  get  through  on  one  fare, 
her  children  being  so  small.  Any  assistance  I  can  render  you  or  them  I  will  gladly 
do.  Chloe  will  be  at  my  office  some  time  this  evening  to  have  me  write  you  a  letter 
for  her. 

Respectfully, 

M.  T.  LEWMAN, 
Sheriff. 


The  Witness.  Last  week  I  sent  forty-two  dollars  to  pay  their  ex¬ 
penses  to  this  place,  and  I  wrote  to  the  sheriff  to  buy  her  a  ticket,  she 
and  her  boy,  to  this  place,  and  meet  me  here  last  Wednesday.  I  had 
not  heard  anything  from  them,  though,  until  yesterday  evening.  1  tele¬ 
graphed  to  the  sheriff  to  know  if  they  had  started,  and  here  is  the  dis¬ 
patch  I  got  from  him  in  reply  : 


To  C.  S.  Wooten  : 

Chloe  desires  to  take  her  daughter  with  her. 
will  send  them  all  on  to-night. 


Gi.eencastle,  Ind., 

February  5, 1880. 


Send  $11  more  by  telegraph,  and  I 
M.  T.  LEWMAN. 


The  Witness  :  This  .daughter  of  hers  is  a  grown  woman  ;  her  hus¬ 
band  was  on,  and  she  wanted  to  come  back.  I  said  I  would  not  send 
the  money,  but  it  he  would  go  to  work  he  could  raise  fifteen  or  twenty 
dollars  to  get  her  back ;  that  I  would  help  to  get  the  old  woman  back, 
and  he  could  get  her  back  himself.  Now,  she  wants  to  bring  her  with 
her,  as  she  is  in  a  critical  condition,  and  does  not  like  to  leave  her. 

Q.  That  accounts  tor  her  not  coming  on  Wednesday? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  got  any  others? — A.  I  have  got  a  letter  from  Franklin 
Jones,  a  fellow  who  lived  on  our  plantation.  This  man  Perry  was  ar¬ 
rested  there  in  our  county  for  forging  a  school-order.  His  brother  was 
a  public-school  teacher,  and  this  fellow  was  charged  with  forging  a  pay 
order  and  drawing  too  much  ;  and  some  of  the  citizens  got  out  a  war¬ 
rant  against  him  for  forgery,  and  they  sent  for  me  to  come  out  there  aud 
prosecute  him.  I  used  to  practice  law  some  years  ago.  I  went  aud 
prosecuted  him,  and  he  had  to  give  a  hundred-dollar  bond.  He  could 
not  raise  it,  and  the  negroes  raised  the  money  and  deposited  it  with  the 
officers  to  aid  him  ;  and  this  man  Jones  was  one  of  the  riugleaders  in 
doing  this  thing,  raising  this  money.  I  heard  that  Jones  was  making 
threats  that  Perry  should  not  go  to  jail,  unless  it  was  over  his  dead 
body  ;  and  when  I  went  out  there,  there  were  a  good  many  of  them  with 
sticks  standing  about,  and  I  heard  of  these  threats,  but  went  on  ;  and 
when  Perry’s  case  was  taken  up,  they  were  there  in  force,  but  behaved 
themselves  very  well. 

(The  witness  here  read  the  following  letters)  : 

January  the  17  1879  Greencasel 

Mr  to  Woot 

Sir  I  take  my  pen  in  hand  to  drop  you  a  fewe  lines  to  let  you  know  that  I  am 
well  at  this  time  hoppen  when  thes  few  lines  lines  rech  you  the  will  fine  you  the  same 
I  is  not  sadfi  d  heare  and  wont  to  come  home  aud  wont  if  you  pleaze  help  me  to  come 
home  and  if  you  will  I  will  pay  you  as  suue  as  I  can  tell  Mr  tom  wootten  that  I  wost 
he  wood  help  me  home  aud  all  off  the  boays  pary  wont  to  come  home  Mr  to  Wootten 
have  fond  it  just  lake  you  sead  these  pepel  hare  dont  not  like  black  pepel  as  well  as  the 
whit  pepel  do  thare  I  like  old  N  C  than  enny  stat  I  have  seen  tel)  all  of  my  inqerren 
fred  that  the  had  better  stay  home  tell  Nanc  Lucy  Smith  Smith  dont  come  hear  for 


222 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


tho  cannot  get  anny  work  to  do  tell  rolley  wooten  that  wife  wont  him  to  send  for 
bear  as  soou  as  he  can  tell  will  liam  wootten  to  stay  at  home  are  passt  off  tho  pepel 
is  not  jot  no  pace  to  stay  tell  Nauc  Lucy  Smith  that  her  morther  wont  to  com  home 
Children  hav  ben  warry  sick  and  diing  Same  porry  tole  lies  in  ever  thing  pleso  ex¬ 
cuse  my  had  hand  writte  north  more  to  say  I  remane  trend  it  will  take  70  dollers 
to  bring  me  home 

FRANK  JONES 


Mr  to  Wootten 


Janary  the  27, 1879  Grcencas 


I  take  my  pen  in  hand  to  wriat  you  a  few  lines  to  let  you  noow  that  I  am  weel  at 
this  time  im  hopping  when  thes  few  lines rech  you  the  may  tine  you  the  same  me 
to  Wootten  Sir  I  wash  you  wood  if  you  pleaz  to  send  me  some  money  to  bring  me  homo, 
and  I  will  pay  you  wen  I  can  get  thar  this  is  not  no  place  for  black  pepel  for  the  can 
not  get  anny  work  to  doe  men  can  not  get  vary  mutch  to  doe  and  I  dont  want  to  stay 
her  if  you  will  sen  for  me  I  will  pay  you  as  swoon  as  I  can  my  farther  an  his  famley 
says  if  you  will  send  for  him  he  will  pay  you  when  ever  he  can  get  thare  tell  you 
brother  that  I  wash  he  wood  if  he  pleaz  to  help  me  home  if  he  will  help  me  I  will  pay 
bouth  of  you 

wriet  swoon  let  menowe  wliat  you  ame  to  doe  north  ig  more  to  say 
I  remane  as  you  fren 


FRANK  JONES 


Sam  perry  out  to  be  hung  for  telling  such  A  falshod  a  grate  meney  pepelhe  read  that 
work  was  plenty  but  it  is  Not  so  if  the  pepel  had  the  riet  uuderstening  the  is  not  A 
man  in  the  Stat  oft'  N  C  wood  not  come  hear  tell  yoar  brother  that  I  wash  he  wood 
help  me  home  to  &  tell  all  off  the  black  pepel  the  had  better  stay  at  home  womman 
that  is  got  children  can  not  get  a  place  to  stay  my  baby  is  dead  she  dide  the  25th  de¬ 
cern  her  give  my  love  to  all  of  my  fren  tell  Caddery  to  stay  at  home  for  this  is  a  bade 
State  to  get  your  liven  the  black  pepel  hear  dnt  want  the  N  C  pepel  to  come  hear  al¬ 
ien  Smith  send  the  that  a  disspatcli  to  you  an  he  want  to  Come  home  all  want  to  Come 
home 

Sam  parry  most  cost  that  we  all  is  out  hear 

FRINK  JONES 

tell  peter  wootten  lhave  rot  him  a  letter  and  is  got  no  ancy 

Here  is  a  letter  in  liis  handwriting,  and  headed  u  Sheriffs  office,  Put¬ 
nam  County,  January  20  v  : 

Sheriff’s  Office,  Putnam  County, 

Greencastie,  Inti.,  January  2b,  1880. 

S.  I.  Wooden, 

Dear  Sir  :  Send  some  money  to  me  and  my  family,  so  we  can  come  hack.  Send 
money  to  sheriff  of  Putnam  County,  Ind. ;  send  it  by  express  as  soon  as  you  get  this 
letter.  It  will  take  about  fifty-four  dollars  to  take  us  all  home.  Tell  all  the  rest  of 
the  colored  folks  to  stay  home — not  to  come  up  here.  I  will  work  for  you  to  pay  you 
back  if  I  live  to  get  homo.  Everything  you  told  me  when  I  started  I  found  to  be  the 
fact. 

Yours,  resp’y, 

FRANKLIN  JONES. 


Q.  Have  you  seen  any  who  have  returned,  to  talk  with  them  ? — A. 
No,  sir;  but  some  of  them  have  returned,  but  I  have  not  seen  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  they  have  said  about  it? — A.  Mr.  Fields,  who 
is  summoned  here  as  a  witness,  went  for  those  two  and  brought  them 
back. 

Q.  Have  you  anything  to  state  about  this  movement? — A.  I  want 
to  say  that  this  idea  about  their  being  oppressed  among  us  is  all 
a  humbug.  The  negro  has  the  best  chance  of  any  laboring  man  in  the 
world,  if  he  would  just  avail  himself  of  his  opportunities.  They  are  the 
best  that  are  offered  to  any  class  of  laborers. 

Q.  You  mean  agricultural  laborers? — A.  Yes,  sir.  To  give  you  an 
idea,  one  of  those  old  fellows  who  left  me,  with  a  wife  and  live  children, 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


223 


got  to  Goldsboro’  with  ten  cents  in  his  pocket.  lie  had  an  idea  that  he 
would  go  to  Indiana  free.  I  talked  with  him  about  it,  but  you  cannot 
reason  with  them.  He  went  there  and  had  only  ten  cents.  I  went  to 
Goldsboro’  a  couple  of  weeks  after  ;  his  wife  sent  for  me  and  asked  to 
let  them  come  back,  and  I  went  up  there  and  let  them  come.  When  ho 
left  me  he  had  a  house  and  a  patch,  good  wages,  his  firewood,  and  all 
that  I  give  any  of  the  tenants.  But  about  his  patch  that  I  allowed 
him  to  cultivate  free  of  charge,  I  wanted  to  rent  it  out,  and  I  examined 
it,  and  there  was  between  fifteen  and  sixteen  acres  that  lie  had  had  for 
rent  free  for  ten  or  twelve  years.  I  am  going  to  cultivate  it  myself,  for 
it  is  fine,  rich  land,  and  make  ten  bales  of  cotton  on  it,  yet  lie  had  it 
rent  free,  and  planted  only  three  or  four  acres  in  cotton,  making  forty 
or  fifty  dollars’  worth  of  cotton  which  lie  would  go  to  town  and  trade 
with.  I  say  they  have  the  best  advantages  given  them  if  they  would 
only  avail  themselves  of  those  advantages.  We  have  plenty  of  waste 
land  which  they  can  cultivate  if  they  will  only  work. 

Q.  AVho  generally  sells  their  cotton  for  them  and  markets  it  ? — xi. 
Some  of  them  who  had  teams  of  their  own  rent  land  and  pay  me  the 
rent — one-third  of  the  corn  and  one-fourth  of  the  cotton.  The  reason 
they  do  not  get  as  much  cotton  is  that  they  have  to  manure  it,  and  that 
makes  the  difference.  They  gin  it  at  our  gin,  and  when  it  comes  time 
to  sell  it,  they  have  the  right  to  go  and  sell  it,  but  they  tell  us  to  sell  it 
because  they  have  an  idea  we  get  better  prices  than  they  can.  We  go 
and  sell  the  cotton  for  them,  and  come  back  and  pay  them  their  price 
for  it.  We  tell  them  to  sell  their  own  cotton,  but  they  say,  “  No  ;  you 
sell  it.”  I  know  a  good  many  white  people  used  to  get  my  father  to 
sell  their  cotton  for  them  because  they  thought  he  could  get  more  for  it 
than  they  could. 


By  Mr.  AYindom  : 

Q.  What  is  the  feeling  there  now  among  the  colored  people  ? — A.  I 
think  it  is  rather  abating  ;  that  is,  right  in  our  section  I  think  there  is 
nothing  more  said  about  it.  Two  or  three  weeks  ago  there  was  some 
little  excitement  over,  it  in  Wayne  County,  but  I  think  that  is  rather 
dying  out,  too. 

Q.  Did  you  write  to  any  of  these  colored  people  ? — A. -No,  sir  ;  never 
to  one  of  them  in  my  life.  The  first  person  I  wrote  to  there  was  the 
sheriff,  making  inquiries  about  them. 

Q.  What  did  you  propose  to  do  in  that  letter? — A.  I  wrote  to  know 
what  it  would  cost  to  get  Chloe  Smith  and  her  little  boy  back.  He  is  a 
little  fellow,  14  or  15  years  old,  and  he  wrote  that  it  would  cost  $20.05.  ; 
and  I  sent  last  week  $42  to  pay  their  expenses  here. 

Q.  You  wrote  to  none  of  them  on.  the  subject? — A.  No,  sir  $  I  wrote 
to  the  sheriff  that  I  did  not  want  this  woman  on  account  of  her  labor,  as 
I  had  plenty  of  that,  but  it  was  out  of  charity  to  her. 

Q.  You  read  a  letter  from  Sarah  Smith  and  several  from  Jones? — A. 
Yres,  sir  ;  I  had  two  or  three  from  Jones. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  letter  from  any  other? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  Perry  a  man  of  much  influence  there  ? — A.  He  did  have  consid¬ 
erable  influence  with  the  colored  people  there — enough  to  stir  them  up 
and  start  them  off  on  this  exodus. 

Q.  What  time  did  lie  come  there? — A.  He  came  down  sometime 
since  the  war  from  Chatham  County.  I  live  at  La  Grange,  17  miles 
from  Kingston,  and  14  or  15  miles  from  Goldsboro’ — between  Kingston 
and  Goldsboro’. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  the  25 -cent  charge. — A.  I  heard  some  of  the  negroes 


224 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


say  they  had  to  pay  him  25  cents  apiece  to  become  members  of  this 
society.  .  V 

Q.  Did  they  tell  you  what  the  objects  of  it  were  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  never 
asked  them  particularly  about  it.  I  know  it  was  to  get  them  off  to  In¬ 
diana,  and  I  asked  what  they  paid,  and  they  said  twenty-five  cents. 

Q.  It  was  originally  organized,  I  understood  you  to  say,  to  get  them 
off  to  Kansas'? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  afterwards  they  changed  their  desti¬ 
nation  to  Indiana. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  Perry  told  them  their  expenses  would  be 
paid  to  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  understood  them  to  say  that  they  ex¬ 
pected  a  free  train  every  Monday  to  carry  them  out  there. 

Q.  Who  was  this  man  Smith? — 2V.  A  colored  man  who  lived  there 
with  me. 

Q.  Is  he  out  there  now? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  say? — A.  He  says  he  told  them  not  to  come. 

Q.  That  was  from  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  received  a  dispatch  from 
him  on  Monday  after  they  had  left,  about  11  o’clock.  They  all  left  that 
morning,  and  went  up  to  Goldsboro’.  He  said  in  his  dispatch  to  tell  all 
my  folks  not  to  come. 

Q.  You  have  not  heard  direct  from  him  except  through  that  dispatch  ? — 
A.  No,  sir.  These  two  women  that  I  speak  of  are  his  sisters,  and  this 
letter  from  Sarah,  l  think,  is  in  his  handwriting.  She  cannot  write  her¬ 
self.  We  have  received  no  letter  from  him  personally. 

Q.  Do  all  thenegroes  find  ready  employment  in  yoursection  of  country? 
— A.  Of  coarse  sometimes  we  are  more  busy  than  at  others.  Of  course 
at  this  time  of  the  year  we  are  not  so  busy  as  in  the  chopping  and  pick¬ 
ing  out  season  ;  but  it  does  not  cost  them  anything  to  live,  as  they  have 
a  house  and  wood  all  free,  and  have  this  chance  to  make  extra  crops. 
Now  this  woman,  Ghloe  Smith,  had  made  enough  that  she  had  attended 
to  herself  to  last  her  all  winter,  and  had  plenty  of  corn  left. 

Q.  Do  they  have  the  same  privileges  on  other  plantations? — A.  Yes, 
sir  ;  it  is  a  pretty  general  rule. 

Q.  You  say  the  idea  of  their  being  oppressed  is  all  humbug  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir.  There  may  be  individual  cases  where  some  of  them  are  oppressed  and 
taken  advantage  of. 

Q.  Do  they  vote  freely  ? — 2V.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  have  seen  no  intimidation  in 
that  regard  except  it  was  where  the  negroes  intimidated  one  who  wanted 
to  vote  the  Democratic  ticket. 

Q.  Is  there  much  of  that? — A.  No,  sir;  for  there  are  not  many  of 
them  who  want  to  vote  that  way. 

Q.  What  are  the  politics  of  your  section  of  the  country  ? — 2Y  My  sec¬ 
tion  of  the  country  is  a  large  Kepublican  and  negro  district.  They  have 
12,000  majority  there.  My  county  has  always  been  Kepublican  except 
in  1874,  when  they  nominated  a  negro  for  the  legislature,  and  the  white 
Kepublicans  would  not  vote  for  him,  so  a  Democrat  got  in. 

Q.  With  that  exception  it  has  always  gone  Kepublican  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
and  so  has  my  precinct,  and  I  never  heard  of  any  intimidation  there. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  any  complaint  that  they  have  made  of  oppres¬ 
sion  ? — A.  No,  sir;  not  any. 

Q.  You  think  they  are  satisfied  and  contented  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  except 
since  this  movement  began.  Since  Perry  went  there  and  stirred  them 
up  they  have  not  been  so  well  satisfied.  If  he  had  not  gone  there  and 
disturbed  them  they  would  have  been  there  to-day  perfectly  contented 
and  satisfied. 

Q.  Then  you  attribute  it  all  to  Perry? — 2V.  Yes,  sir;  in  our  section 

I  do. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


225 


Q.  And  as  you  understood  it  lie  was  hired  by  the  railroad  com¬ 
pany! — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  understood  from  the  newspapers  that  he  got  a 
dollar  a  head  for  each  one  he  sent  off. 

“ Q.  What  proportion  of  those  who  left  were  men? — A.  There  were 
thirty  families,  I  suppose,  averaging  five  children  to  a  family.  About 
twenty -five  men  left,  and  there  were  five  or  six  women  who  were  not 
married  who  left  at  the  same  time. 

Q.  So  from  jour  plantation  how  many  went  ? — A.  One  hundred  aud 
twenty-five  to  one  hundred  and  fifty,  including  the  children. 

Q.  And  of  these  twenty-five  were  men? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  some  five 
or  six  boys,  eighteen  or  nineteen  years  old. 

Q.  And  of  all  who  left  you  have  heard  of  no  dissatisfaction,  except 
from  Smith  and  Jones? — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  heard  of  no  others  except 
of  that  man  who  wanted  to  get  his  wife  on  our  plantation.  They  say 
there,  at  least  I  heard  some  of  the  colored  people  say,  that  it  was  all  a 
plot  on  his  part  with  a  gentleman  there  on  the  place  to  get  her  off.  I  do 
not  much  believe  he  wants  her  to  come  back. 

Q.  You  read  from  some  letters  that  they  do  not  like  colored  people  in 
Indiana? — A.  That  was  in  Frank  Jones’s  letter. 

Q.  We  have  had  some  evidence  here  of  a  man  who  had  a  house  burnt 
down  in  Indiana  because  of  employing  them;  do  you  think  that  would 
have  a  tendency  to  make  them  want  to  come  back  home  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 
I  read  of  that  case. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  very  general  evidence  of  dissatisfaction  that 
two  or  three  want  to  come  back? — A.  Jones  wrote  that  all  of  them 
wanted  to  come  back.  I  have  heard  nothing  else  though.  I  will  make 
a  statement  that  on  my  plantation  we  have  between  forty  aud  fifty 
families,  and  not  a  white  family  on  it.  They  were  all  colored.  The 
negro  has  the  preference  and  all  the  best  land  for  farming.  He  is  pre¬ 
ferred  as  a  laborer  and  a  tenant.  I  prefer  them,  and  I  had  no  white 
men  on  my  plantation;  but  after  they  left,  the  day  after,  I  had  fourteen 
applications  from  white  men  who  came  in  from  poor  places  to  get  better 
land,  and  now  I  have  ten  families  on  my  place,  and  I  took  them  in.  I 
did  not  know  to  what  extent  this  movement  was  going. 

Q.  Would  it  not  be  an  advantage  to  the  white  people  of  North  Caro¬ 
lina  to  distribute  them  throughout  the  country ;  I  mean  the  negroes  ? — 
A.  I  do  not  think  it  would  be  a  very  great  disadvantage  to  our  State. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  That  is,  if  the  white  laborers  came  in  to  take  their  places? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  On  the  whole,  you  think  it  would  be  au  advantage? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
though  it  would  disarrange  the  labor  system  for  a  while. 

Q.  Then  you  think  there  is  a  superabundance  of  labor  there? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  there  is  plenty  of  it,  and  yet  we  have  plenty  of  territory  unde¬ 
veloped.  If  we  had  capital  to  work  it  we  would  use  it  all.  We  have 
undeveloped  territory  for  four  or  five  times  the  population  we  have  got. 


TESTIMONY  OF  F.  B.  FIELDS. 

F.  B.  Fields  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  live,  Mr.  Fields? — Answer.  At  La  Grange. 
Q.  In  what  county? — A.  In  the  county  of  Lenoir,  North  Carolina. 
15  EX 


226 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  What  is  your  occupation  ? — A.  I  am  a  retail  dealer  and  distiller 
of  whisky. 

Q.  Do  you  farm  any  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  a  small  farm,  but  do  not 
farm  upon  it. 

Q.  State  if  you  know  anything  of  the  exodus  of  these  colored  people 
from  our  State. — A.  I  do  not  know  anything  of  the  cause  for  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  it  at  all;  did  you  go  out  to  Indiana  to 
see  some  colored  men  who  left  your  section  ? — A.  One  of  them  wrote 
to  me  to  get  back  and  another  telegraphed. 

Q.  What  were  their  names?— A.  Nathan  W"ade  and  Amos  Dawson. 

Q.  Did  you  go  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  State  what  you  heard  and  what  took  place.  Tell  us  about  that 
trip. — A.  Well,  I  went  to  Indianapolis  and  found  Amos ;  left  him  there, 
when  I  went  to  Greencastle  after  Nathan  and  brought  him  back  to  Indi¬ 
anapolis  that  afternoon,  and  the  next  day  they  came  home. 

Q.  You  brought  both  of  them  back? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  wanted  to  come  home? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  ? — A.  They  were  not  satisfied  out  there. 

Q.  What  did  they  tell  you  about  their  condition  out  there  ? — A.  They 
stated  it  was  very  poor. 

Q.  Did  they  give  you  any  of  the  particulars? — A.  They  stated  they 
could  not  get  work  enough  to  satisfy  them  and  make  a  living.  I  asked 
one  of  them  what  he  had  been  doing,  and  he  said  he  had  been  shucking 
corn ;  he  said  they  called  it  husking  out  there. 

Q.  He  said  that  he  could  not  get  work  enough  to  make  a  living? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  both  of  them  tell  you  so  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Had  they  their  families  with  them  ? — A.  Amos’s  family  was  there 
with  him  ;  Wade  had  one  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  You  say  Amos  had  a  family  there  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  bring  them  with  him  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  leave  them  there  in  Indiana  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  did  he  leave  them  ? — A.  He  did  not  want  them  to  come ;  he 
left  them ;  there  had  been  some  general  dissatisfaction  in  the  family ; 
they  left  him  first  and  went  on,  and  he  left  and  went  out  there  to  look 
after  them ;  when  he  went  away  he  said  to  me,  if  I  want  to  come  back 
I  want  you  to  help  me,  and  I  said  I  would  do  it. 

Q.  Which  one  was  that,  now  ? — A.  That  was  Amos  Dawson. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  to  any  others  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  Some  of  them  said 
they  were  doing  well,  had  plenty  of  work,  and  were  getting  fair  pay. 
I  don’t  know  whether  it  was  true  or  not,  but  I  did  not  see  them  at  work. 
Some  of  them  said  so  and  some  did  not,  and  some  of  them  wanted  to 
go  back  with  me.  Six  of  them  asked  me  to  bring  them  back,  but  I 
would  not  do  it. 

Q.  Six  of  them  wanted  you  to  bring  them  back  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  some  said  they  were  doing  well  enough  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  have  you  to  say  of  the  condition  of  these  people  in  Lenoir 
County  ? — A.  It  was  good. 

Q.  Is  there  any  oppression  of  them  there? — A.  None  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  They  always  vote  freely  there? — A.  Yes,  sir;  in  our  section  they 
always  vote  their  sentiments,  so  far  as  1  know. 

Q.  What  are  the  opportunities  of  an  industrious,  sober  colored  man 
to  make  a  living  compared  with  the  poor  white  man  ? — A.  They  are  the 
same;  any  man  can  make  a  living  who  tries. 

Q.  W^hat  are  your  politics?— A.  I  am  a  Eepublican. 

Q.  Is  your  county  a  Eepublican  county  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


227 


Q.  And  lias  been  since  reconstruction  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  since  the  war. 

Q.  Have  you  received  any  letters  from  colored  people  out  there  since 
your  return  ? — A.  No,  sir.  If  I  have  I  don’t  remember  it. 

Q.  When  did  you  go  to  Indianapolis  ? — A.  I  got  there  the  last  day  of 
December,  at  night. 

Q.  Have  you  auy  information  from  them  since  your  return  ? — A.  I 
can  only  state  that  from  reports. 

Q.  You  have  a  right  to  speak  of  what  you  have  heard. — A.  I  heard 
it  remarked  that  this  man  Perry  was  at  the  head  of  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  his  making  any  speeches  in  your  county? — A.  I 
think  I  did.  I  thiuk  he  made  several  in  La  Grange  one  Saturday  even¬ 
ing,  when  there  was  a  good  many  colored  people  there.  I  did  not  hear 
him.  I  heard  Peter  Williams  and  a  man  named  Barker. 

Q.  What  did  Peter  say? — A.  I  don’t  remember. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  inducements  were  held  out  to  these  people  as 
to  the  wages? — A.  Only  from  reports.  I  heard  they  said  the  wages 
were  better  than  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  What  are  the  average  wages  of  a  good  hand  in  your  section? — A. 
They  run  from  six,  eight,  ten,  to  twelve  dollars  a  month,  according  to 
the  hand. 

Q.  What  lands  do  they  get  ? — A.  They  get  a  little  garden  patch  and 
house  rent  free. 

Q.  And  fire-wood  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  general  rule? — A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  it  is;  it  has  always 
been  the  case  on  my  little  farm. 

Q.  You  have  always  given  them  that  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  This  man  Daw¬ 
son  lived  on  ray  plantation  thirteen  years. 

Q.  As  a  hireling  or  as  a  tenant? — A.  Both  ;  he  rented  his  own  farm, 
and  when  I  wanted  to  hire  him  1  did  so. 

Bv  Senator  Window  : 

c / 

Q.  Did  anybody  go  back  with  you  except  Dawson  ? — A.  Dawson  and 
Wade. 

Q.  Dawson’s  family  went  away  before  he  did  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  said  he  was  going  to  look  after  them  and  he  arranged 
with  you  to  help  them  to  come  back  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  was  his  last 
remark  to  me. 

Q.  Then  he  was  not  a  genuine  exoduster.,  but  went  to  see  after  his 
family  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Wade  went  out  to  look  and  see  what  the  advantages  were? — A. 
It  is  reported  that  his  friends  sent  him  on  there,  but  I  don’t  know 
whether  it  is  true  or  not. 

Q.  Did  you  learn  from  him  anything  of  that  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  there  were  some  others  who  wanted  to  come  back  ? — A, 
Yes,  sir  ;  they  asked  me  if  I  would  carry  them. 

Q.  Did  they  state  any  of  their  dissatisfaction  ? — A.  No,  sir;  they  were 
all  strangers  to  me.  I  asked  their  names  and  they  gave  them  to  me. 

Q.  Your  understanding  was  that  they  thought  they  could  do  better  by 
going  to  Indiana  % — A.  That  was  the  report,  that  the  wages  were  better 
.out  there. 

Q.  But  they  thought  they  could  better  their  condition  ? — A.  That  was 
the  report. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  of  any  dissatisfaction  that  was  expressed  gener¬ 
ally  among  the  colored  people  in  North  Carolina? — A.  Not  until  this 
excitement  came  up. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  any  dissatisfaction  or  anything  in  the  courts  ? — 


228. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


A.  No,  sir;  they  have  always  been  doing  well  and  had  justice,  I  be¬ 
lieve. 

Q.  This,  yon  say,  is  a  strong  Republican  county  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q.JAnd  Jhe  negroes  are  all  Republicans? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  JAMES  BUCHANAN. 


James  Buchanan  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  I)o  you  reside  in  Indianapolis,  Mr.  Buchanan  ? — Answer. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation  ? — A.  I  am  an  attorney-at-law. 

Q.  Will  you  please  state  to  the  committee  whether  you  have  been  in 
any  way  engaged  as  to  cause  you  to  study  the  labor  question  in  your 
State,  and  to  know  the  demand  for  labor,  the  supply,  or  whether  the 
supply  is  equal  to  the  demand,  and  whether  at  this  time  or  in  the  last 
six  years  there  has  been  any  demand  for  a  labor  immigration  into  In¬ 
diana  such  as  that  from  North  Carolina  ? — A.  I  have  been  since  1873 
more  or  less  actively  inquiring,  for  political  reasons,  into  that  subject. 

Q.  State  whether  you  have  been  engaged  in  journalism. — A.  Yes,  sir; 
a  portion  of  the  time. 

Q.  Have  you  been  one  of  the  editors  and  proprietors  of  the  Indiaua 
Sun  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  your  politics,  Mr.  Buchanan  ? — A.  I  belong  to  the  Na¬ 
tional  Greenback  and  Labor  party. 

Q.  State  whether  you  have  devoted  much  of  your  time  to  a  discussion 
of  political  questions  from  your  standpoint. — A.  Yes,  sir;  somewhat 
extensively. 

Q.  Will  you  give  the  committee  the  result  of  your  examination  into 
this  labor  question  ? — A.  The  results,  as  it  pertaius  to  the  facts  in  the 
State  of  Indiaua,  are  these  :  There  is,  to  state  it  broadly,  no  demand  for 
labor  in  that  State  that  is  not  amply  supplied  within  the  State  at  any  and 
all  seasons  of  the  year  ;  indeed,  there  is  a  surplus  of  labor  in  the  State  at 
certain  seasons  of  the  year.  There  are  perhaps  only  three  or  four  weeks  in 
the  year  when  all  the  labor  in  the  State  can  be  profitably  employed,  and 
that  is  the  harvest  season  in  the  summer  time.  My  position  politically 
brought  me  in  contact  with  men  coming  from  all  parts  of  the  State.  At 
my  location  in  Indianapolis  I  naturally  see  numbers  of  people  from  every 
section,  as  that  city  bears  a  relation  to  all  parts  of  the  State  that  no 
other  capital  city  of  any  State  on  the  continent  does,  since  it  is  in  close 
connection  with  all  parts  of  the  State.  There  is  once  in  a  while  a  de¬ 
mand  for  labor  in  particular  townships.  Take  the  township  of  Pike, 
for  instance,  and  there  was  last  year  a  demand  for  labor  in  that  town¬ 
ship,  but  at  the  same  time  in  Indianapolis  and  in  Marion  County  there 
was  enough  idle  labor  and  more  to  supply  all  that  Pike  Towmship  re¬ 
quired  and  two  or  three  more.  In  my  office  I  will  safely  say  there  are 
on  an  average  two  to  three  every  day  in  the  year  who  come  around  in¬ 
quiring  for  situations  or  opportunities  for  employment.  The  position 
1  have  occupied  politically,  advocating  especially  the  labor  interests,  is 
perhaps  the  reason  for  their  applying  at  my  office  more  than  at  others ; 
and  also,  I  may  say,  at  my  house  1  am  applied  to  by  one  or  two  persons 
a  day  for  employment,  some  of  them  being  white  and  some  colored. 

Q.  That  is,  it  would  average  one  a  day  all  the  year  round  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


229 


Q.  Is  it  not  the  fact,  Mr.  Buchanan,  that  in  the  mean  time  there  is  ac¬ 
tual  suffering  at  many  points  in  Indiana  for  the  want  of  employment  by 
these  people? — A.  There  can  be  no  doubt  of  it.  There  has  been  ever  since 
1873,  a  year  which  deranged  the  manufacturing  pursuits  of  the  country, 
a  continuous  suffering  among  a  portion  of  our  laboring  population. 
There  is  not  enough  labor  in  agricultural  communities  where  they  em¬ 
ploy  wage  hands  to  take  up  the  labor  of  all  those  seeking  employment. 
They  cannot  now  earn  enough  during  the  time  when  they  can  be  em¬ 
ployed  to  carry  them  through  thew  inter  in  comfort. 

Q.  You  were  raised,  Mr.  Buchanan,  on  a  farm  as  a  young  man,  as  well 
as  I  was? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  are  familiar  with  farm  labor  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  been 
all  the  time. 

Q.  Something  has  been  said  here  about  there  being  a  demand  more 
than  usual  in  harvest  time  for  labor;  do  you  know  of  any  demand  of 
late  years  even  in  harvest  time  that  could  not  have  been  supplied,  or 
that  cannot  now  be  supplied,  by  our  own  hands'? — A.  No,  sir;  yet  in 
good  seasons  there  are  times  when  mechanics  are  in  demand,  but  I  do 
not  know  of  any  time  when  all  the  labor  has  been  demanded  that  could 
be  supplied  by  our  own  people.  None  of  the  harvests  have  gone  to 
waste  from  the  want  of  labor  to  take  care  of  them.  They  have  been 
rained  on  sometimes  and  damaged  in  that  way,  but  have  not  been  lost 
from  the  want  of  labor  to  house  them. 

Q.  If  there  should  be  a  demand  for  extra  labor  in  harvest-time,  about 
what  leugtli  of  time  would  this  demand  last? — A.  In  some  localities  it 
would  last  two  or  three  weeks.  It  begins  down  in  the  southern  portion 
of  the  State,  where  the  wheat  ripens  first,  and  then  moves  on  towards 
the  northern  portion  of  the  State,  where  it  is  later  m  ripening.  The 
time  between  the  two  is  probably  six  weeks. 

Q.  Is  there  as  much  demand  for  labor  during  the  spring  as  during  the 
harvest  time  J? — A.  No,  sir;  and  I  will  remark  here  that  the  suffering 
has  mostly  been  among  the  mechanics.  Their  employment,  especially 
that  of  house-carpenters  and  brick  masons,  is  outdoor  employment. 
They  are  generally  employed  in  building,  and  when  it  comes  to  the  win¬ 
ter  season  building  operations  are  mostly  suspended.  This  is  true  any¬ 
where  andatall  times;  but  since  1873  and  the  financial  panic  which  occur¬ 
red  at  that  time  there  has  been  little  or  no  employment  for  mechanics 
in  Indianapolis  at  any  season,  because  building  operations  have  stopped, 
so  that  skilled  labor  has  been  driven  to  seek  employment  on  the  farm. 
Many  times  men  of  families  have  been  compelled  to  take  labor  upon  the 
farms  in  the  country,  and  I  have  known  of  much  suffering  among  this 
class  of  people.  I  have  myself  employed  some  of  them  when  I  did  not 
need  them. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  winter  since  1873  in  Indianapolis  where  it 
has  not  been  the  daily  practice  and  duty  of  the  town  trustees  to  feed,  in 
charity,  able-bodied  men  and  women  who  are  willing  to  work  to  earn 
their  living  if  they  could  get  the  work  to  do? — A.  That  is  true,  sir. 

Q.  And  thatistruenow  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  not  so  much  so  as  formerly, 
it  has  improved  a  little  and  mechanics  have  been  scattered  away  from 
there  and  gone  wTest  to  seek  employment. 

Q.  The  winter,  Mr.  Buchanan,  has  been  mild? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  families 
that  have  worn  their  old  clothes,  where  in  good  times  they  would  have 
bought  new  ones,  denied  themselves  the  comfort  which  they  would  have 
had  if  their  labor  could  have  been  employed. 

Q.  lrou  have  an  office  here,  Mr.  Buchanan,  so  I  see,  and  you  are  prac¬ 
ticing  law;  have  you  been  home  since  this  movement  struck  Indianapo- 


230 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES./ 


lis? — A.  1  left  Indianapolis  on  the  evening  of  the  5th  of  January,  and 
have  not  been  home  since. 

Q.  Then  you  have  not  had  much  observation  of  these  immigrants  ! — 
A.  No,  sir;  I  know  very  little,  except  what  I  have  heard. 

Q.  You  know  enough  to  know  that  they  have  been  constant  paupers 
upon  the  charity  of  the  public  ! — A.  There  is  no  question,  I  think,  of 
that.  I  understand  there  are  200  there  now  on  charity,  and  I  think  that 
that  is  not  denied  by  any  one. 

Q.  Have  you  been  observant  of  the  position  of  the  press  of  the  State 
on  this  immigration  question! — A.  Yres,  sir,  to  some  extent,  but  I  don’t 
know  that  I  know  the  position  of  the  whole  press  of  the  State. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  any  notice  in  any  of  the  Republican  press  of  the 
State  that  these  people  were  paupers  and  their  presence  was  not  desired 
in  Indiana! — A.  I  think  I  saw  it  in  the  Indianapolis  News. 

Q.  Do  you  call  it  a  Republican  newspaper  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  it  manages 
to  get  in  and  support  the  Republican  ticket  every  time.  I  think  it  has 
always  done  that  since  the  Greeley  campaign. 

Q.  But  it  is  opposed  to  the  exodus  full  drift,  is  it  not ! — A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  It  calls  itself  independent,  does  it  not,  and  has  Republican  tend¬ 
encies  ! — A.  Y^es,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  paper  that  has  said  the  same  thing! — 
A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not.  I  will  state  that  outside  of  Greencastle,  Put¬ 
nam  County,  and  Indianapolis,  I  know  of  nothing  as  a  basis  of  quota¬ 
tion  on  this  subject.  The  Greencastle  Banner  was  a  leading  advocate 
of  the  movement,  and  all  the  other  papers  would  copy  from  it  aud  com¬ 
ment  on  its  statements;  that  is  the  nature  of  the  discussion  that  has 
been  going  on  in  the  State  over  this  subject.  The  Democratic  and  Na¬ 
tional  papers  were  opposed  to  it,  not  because  they  did  not  believe,  as  I 
did,  that  a  man  has  got  a  right  to  go  where  he  pleases,  but  because  these 
men  were  imported  in  the  State  from  wrong  motives. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  you  and  they  opposed  it  because  these  peo¬ 
ple  were  better  off  in  the  South  than  they  were  in  the  State  where  they 
could  not  find  employment  and  support  ! — A.  From  what  I  have  learned 
I  think  their  condition  is  better  in  North  Carolina  than  it  would  be  in 
Indiana. 

Q.  You  were  always  a  Republican,  that  you  know! — A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
helped  to  organize  the  Republican  party  and  abolish  slavery. 

Q.  And  you  were  as  much  gratified  at  that  result,  the  abolition  of 
slavery,  as  anybody  in  the  State  of  Indiana ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  believe  that  the  negro  has  an  absolute  right  to  stand  upon 
the  same  footing  in  their  relation  of  leaving  as  anybody  else  ! — A.  Yes, 
sir;  I  think  it  is  God’s  given  right. 

Q.  Then  it  is  not  prejudice  against  the  colored  man  that  makes  you 
believe  he  should  not  go  to  Indiana! — A.  Not  in  the  world,  sir;  but 
certain  facts  are  facts,  and  I  believe  that  the  white  people  in  North 
Carolina  have  in  a  certain  sense  a  better  feeling  toward  the  colored 
people  than  have  the  white  people  in  Indiana ;  the  people  divide  there 
in  some  sense  according  to  their  feelings.  It  is  true  that  the  idea  of  the 
political  rights  of  the  negro  has  the  same  effect  upon  the  average  Dem¬ 
ocrat  that  water  would  have  upon  a  mad  dog;  to  a  certain  extent  in 
Indiana  the  same  feeling  is  shared  by  Republicians;  these  things  are 
played  upon  and  operate  to  the  detriment  of  the  negro.  I  have  friends 
and  relatives  living  in  the  South  ;  my  father  and  mother  came  from  the 
South,  and  were  of  what  they  called  certain  abolitionists  of  the  intensest 
character  :  but  I  think  the  Southern  feeling  is  better  towards  the  negro 
than  the  feeling  in  the  North.  As  to  these  whites  of  the  North,  these 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


231 


leading  Republicans  in  Indianapolis,  wlio  are  encouraging  this  move¬ 
ment,  I  believe  their  motive  is  to  gain  votes  for  the  Republican  party 
without  regard  to  the  social  and  industrial  position  of  the  voters;  they 
seek  gaiu.  That  opinion  is  founded  on  the  drift  of  comment  and  what  I 
know  the  facts  to  be.  The  Indianapolis  Journal  is  the  leading  Repub¬ 
lican  organ  of  the  State,  and  in  my  judgment  is  excessively  economical 
of  the  truth. 

Q.  Do  you  state  that  under  oath,  that  it  is  very  economical  of  the 
truth? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  the  Indianapolis  Sentinel  is  the  leading  Dem¬ 
ocratic  organ  of  the  State,  and  I  do  not  consider  it  as  exceedingly  re¬ 
liable  in  its  comments  on  party  matters.  It  takes  the  other  extreme  ; 
the  one  Republican,  and  the  other  Democratic. 

Q.  Do  you  think,  from  your  old  Republican  sentiments  and  anteced¬ 
ents  and  your  connection  with  the  study  of  the  labor  movement,  that 
you  have  taken  an  impartial  view  of  this  subject  ? — A.  I  think  I  have. 
Every  man  might  not  feel  the  same  way  upon  these  subjects  like  myself. 
My  position  on  the  slavery  question  was  not  simply  that  it  was  for  one 
man  against  another,  but  I  thought  that  the  negro  had  the  right  to  the 
fruits  of  his  own  labor.  I  think,  however,  that  another  system  of  slav¬ 
ery  has  supplanted  the  one  that  was  abolished. 

Q.  What  system  of  slavery  do  you  think  has  taken  the  place  of  the 
one  that  was  abolished  ? — A.  Financial  robbery  ot  the  people  through 
the  agency  of  monopolies  and  class  legislation. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  I  suppose,  sir,  from  your  examination,  that  you  have  had  some  con¬ 
siderable  study  of  the  labor  question.  You  have  heard  the  examination 
of  Mr.  Wooten  and  Mr.  Fields,  the  two  gentlemen  from  North  Caro¬ 
lina? — A.  Yes,  sir;  a  portion  of  it. 

Q.  The  substance  of  their  testimony  as  to  what  was  paid  farui  labor¬ 
ers  in  North  Carolina  was  that  they  got  $10  a  month  wages,  house  rent 
free,  a  garden  patch,  and  fire- wood  free,  and  that  the  hiring  extended 
over  the  entire  twelve  months.  I  desire  to  ask  you  whether  farm  labor 
is  any  better  paid  than  that  in  Indiana  ? — A.  No,  sir;  it  is  not  so  well 
paid.  During  certain  seasons  our  farmers  might  pay  better,  but  for 
the  regular  season  for  a  laboring  man  he  is  not  thus  well  provided  for. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  You  have  spoken,  Mr.  Buchanan,  of  the  economy  of  truth  prac> 
ticed  by  the  Indianapolis  Journal  in  its  discussion  of  party  questions' 
do  you  think  the  Sentinel,  which  you  say  is  the  Democratic  organ,  prac 
tices  the  same  economy? — A.  I  think  it  is  a  full  brother. 

Q.  You  think  the  only  papers,  then,  that  have  a  monopoly  of  the  truth 
are  the  Greenback  papers? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  say  that. 

Q.  Are  they  the  only  papers  that  tell  the  truth  in  Indiana  ? — A.  Well, 
sir,  they  have  not  entered  into  this  fight  very  much. 

Q.  But  do  they  tell  the  truth,  and  are  they  the  only  papers  that  do 
tell  the  truth  in  Indiana? — A.  As  a  general  proposition,  with  reference 
to  this  movement,  they  have  stated  the  whole  truth  without  entering 
the  contest  over  the  issue. 

Q.  Yrou  have  not  answered  my  question.  I  desire  to  know  whether 
you  think  the  Greenback  papers  are  the  only  papers  in  Indiana  that  tell 
the  truth  on  this  subject  ? — A.  Of  course,  sir,  there  have  been  prevari¬ 
cations  in  them  as  well  as  in  other  papers. 

Q.  Then  you  think  they  may  not  have  told  what  is  true  about  this 
movement? — A.  I  have  not  expressed  it  that  way,  sir. 


232 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  You  regard  that  the  Greenback  papers  are  very  lavish  of  the 
truth  ? — A.  Iu  relation  to  these  facts,  I  think  they  are. 

Q.  Then  the  Indianapolis  Sun  was  the  only  one  of  the  leading  papers 
of  the  State  that  you  could  rely  upon  to  get  the  truth  about  the  exodus? 
— A.  I  think  you  could  rely  on  any  of  them  where  there  was  no  parti¬ 
san  interest  involved. 

Q.  But  do  you  mean  to  back  up  the  Indianapolis  Sun  as  the  only 
paper  giving  the  truth  in  the  discussion  of  these  questions  ? — A.  I  will 
back  the  Indianapolis  Sun  on  its  statement  of  facts  as  long  as  Iwascon- 
nected  with  it. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  only  one  of  the  leading  papers  of  the  State  that 
you  will  back? — A.  I  will  not  back  them  to  the  same  extent. 

Q.  Is  there  any  improvement  in  the  times  in  Indiana? — A.  In  one 
sense;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  us  in  what  sense  you  have  realized  this  improve¬ 
ment? — A.  The  Lord  has  been  very  kind  to  Indiana  and  given  it  an 
immense  wheat  crop,  which  has  brought  more  money  than  we  have  had 
for  several  years.  That  amount  of  money  enables  those  people  to  get 
some  comforts  from  which  they  have  heretofore  been  deprived. 

Q.  Do  you  thiuk  that  improvement  is  not  permanent? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I 
think  not.  It  may  last  a  year  or  so,  but  I  could  not  predict  that  it  is 
permanent. 

Q.  Then  you  mean  to  say  that  the  wheat  crop  is  to  be  credited  with 
any  improvement  in  the  times  in  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir;  we  had  an  im¬ 
mense  wheat  crop  while  there  were  short  crops  in  Europe.  This  latter 
fact  created  a  demand  for  our  wheat  and  hence  the  improvement. 

Q.  You  thiuk  that  is  the  cause  of  the  improvement? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  your  judgement  it  is  that  and  nothing  else? — A.  Yes,  sir. 
When  you  speak  of  a  general  revival  of  business,  as  the  term  is  used  in 
discussing  the  present  situation,  I  understand  it  to  mean  a  revival  iu 
the  financial  condition  of  the  people,  in  the  employment  of  labor,  which 
enables  all  who  desire  it  to  have  employment;  and  in  that  sense  there 
is  not  a  general  revival  of  business. 

Q.  You  find  more  people  now  who  can  find  employment  than  could  do 
so  some  time  ago  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  not  in  Indiana. 

Q.  Do  you  think  Indiana  is  worse  off  in  that  matter  than  the  other 
States  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  think  there  is  no  general  revival  of  business  anywhere? — 
A.  No,  sir;  in  the  sense  I  explained  to  you  I  do  not. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  your  party,  the  National  Greenback  Labor 
party,  do  not  take  a  very  cheerful  view  of  the  condition  of  the  country  ? 
— A.  We  take  a  full  and  fair  view  of  the  facts.  I  do  not  think  a  funeral 
is  a  very  cheerful  thing  at  any  time. 

Senator  Vance.  That  depends  on  who  is  being  buried.  [Laughter.] 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  You  have  sworn,  Mr.  Buchanan,  that  there  is,  in  your  opinion,  no 
general  revival  of  business;  now,  will  you  please  explain  what  you  mean 
and  what  is  the  character  of  the  improvement  which  you  admit  has 
taken  place  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  think  that  there  has  been  a  general 
revival  of  business,  but  there  has  been  an  apparent  revival.  In  trans¬ 
porting  the  products  of  the  year  from  the  producers  over  to  the  con¬ 
sumers  it  gives  activity  to  business,  an  activity  that  appears  to  some 
persons  to  be  a  revival  of  business,  but  which  is  not  a  revival  of  business 
such  as  I  have  explained  to  you. 

Q.  Are  there  any  more  manufactories  in  operation  now  than  there 
were  five  years  ago  ? — A.  I  do  not  think  all  of  them  are  in  operation. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  2  )3 

Q.  Then  you  think  the  factories  are  quite  as  silent  now,  or  more  so,, 
than  they  were  five  years  ago? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  would  fix  it  at  1873  and 

1874. 

Q.  Well,  speak  of  four  years  ago  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  Indianapolis  did 
not  feel  the  suffering  arising  from  the  panic  in  1874  and  1875.  Its  worst 
time  was  in  1875  and  1876.  It  is  not  so  bad  there  now  as  in  1875  and 
1876,  but  that  is  due  largely  to  the  fact  that  the  surplus  labor  of  those 
years  has  thinned  out  and  goue  off  to  other  places. 

Q.  Well,  sir,  you  seem  to  have  made  this  an  economic  study,  and  I 
am  anxious  to  have  your  opinion  on  the  record  regarding  this  revival 
of  business? — A.  I  do  not  think  there  is  any  substantial  revival  on  a 
basis  to  be  permanent. 

Q.  There  are  as  many  factories  running  now  as  there  were  five  years 
ago,  are  there  not  ? — A.  I  think  not. 

Q.  Well,  sir,  how  many  ?  Give  us  the  proportion  for  the  two  periods 
as  nearly  as  you  can? — A.  I  think  there  are  not  more  than  one-third  as- 
many  that  are  idle,  but  the  basis  of  my  calculations  on  that  point  may 
be  erroneous. 

Q.  Your  view  is  that  there  is  no  more  substantial  employment  to  be 
given  to  the  people  in  the  United  States  to-day  than  there  was  five 
years  ago? — A.  There  is  no  more.  There  is  no  more  measured  by  the 
compensation  of  the  labor. 

Q.  That  is,  there  is  not  the  amount  of  wealth  being  produced  in  the 
country  now  as  there  was  before  the  panic,  but  there  is  some  more  than 
there  was  in  1876  and  1877 ;  what  is  the  percentage  of  the  increase? — 
A.  I  cannot  say,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  ten  per  cent.? — A.  I  think  so,  sir;  but  I  do  not  think  that 
this  increase  is  due  to  any  party  policy,  but  that  it  is  God’s  work. 

Q.  But  you  think  there  has  been  ten  per  cent,  more  employment 
given  to  the  laborers  of  the  country? — A.  Well,  sir,  the  compensation 
of  labor  is  not  as  great  as  it  was  four  years  ago.  Then  the  w  ages  that 
are  paid  when  parties  are  employed  are  very  little  higher  than  they 
were  when  the  number  of  laborers  was  greater. 

Q.  Is  it  not  very  much  greater,  Mr.  Buchanan  ;  would  you  not  say  it 
was  10  per  cent,  more  ? — A.  Or  should  say  there  are  10  per  cent,  more 
individuals  who  can’t  find  employment. 

Q.  Would  you  say  20 per  cent.? — A.  I  don’t  think  120  men  have  em¬ 
ployment  now  where  100  were  in  1876. 

Q.  Then  you  don’t  think  the  employment  amounts  to  20  per  cent? — 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  do  you  think  that  is  the  true  state  of  the  country  generally  ? 
— A.  I  don’t  know,  sir;  that  is  only  guesswork  at  best. 

Q.  Well,  10  per  cent,  improvement  makes  a  very  great  difference  ? — 
A.  I  don’t  know,  sir,  as  to  that  matter. 

Q.  W’hat  is  your  opinion? — A.  I  cannot  state,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  do  think  there  is  10  per  cent.  ? — A.  I  have  my  doubts  as 
to  that. 

Q.  You  have  your  doubts  as  to  whether  the  general  condition  of  the 
country  is  improved  10  per  cent. — A.  Labor  in  the  amount  of  its  im¬ 
provement  I  don’t  think  has  increased  10  per  cent.,  and  in  its  compen¬ 
sation  I  don’t  think  it  is  quite  up  to  the  mark,  as  I  explained  to  you  a 
short  while  ago,  of  men,  the  wTealth  produced  by  it,  and  added  to  the 
aggregate  sum  of  the  nation’s  wealth. 

Q.  You  think  there  is  not  10  per  cent,  being  added  to  the  nation’s- 
wealth  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  think  the  prospect  generally  is  gloomy  ? — A.  I  think 


234 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


that  we  are  all  upon  a  basis  in  this  country  where  we  are  likely  to  fall 
into  ruin  in  ten  years. 

Q.  Then  you  take  a  dark  view  of  the  employment  of  labor  in  the 
country,  quite  as  dark  as  you  do  of  the  employment  of  colored  people  in 
Indiana  ? — A.  I  have  not  spoken  of  the  employment  of  colored  people  in 
Indiana  especially. 

Q.  Well,  then,  you  take  the  same  gloomy  view  of  the  whole  country  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  but  I  have  not  been  speaking  of  the  condition  of  the 
country,  as  a  general  thing  to  apply  everywhere.  Now,  iu  some  locali¬ 
ties  it  is  different,  and  the  improvement  appears  to  be  substantial. 
You  have  factories  upon  the  Ohio  and  Wabash  that  are  doing  their  full 
amount  of  business.  Y^ou  may  take  the  glass  factory  at  New  Albany, 
where,  I  understand,  they  have  orders  two  months  ahead  of  their  ca¬ 
pacities. 

Q.  Y^ou  stated  awhile  ago  that  200  of  these  people  were  living  upou 
charity  in  Indianapolis. — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  parties  were  soliciting  charity 
for  them.  When  1  was  there  I  was  asked  to  give  something  to  help  them. 
I  heard  Mr.  W.  R.  Holladay,  at  the  Ebbitt  House,  no  longer  ago  than 
last  night  speaking  of  it ;  he  was  criticising  what  was  said  by  a  Mr. 
Bogley,  a  prominent  negro  in  Indiana,  and  denied  that  there  was  need 
and  employment  for  these  negroes. 

Q.  Then  he  is  not  iu  favor  of  the  exodus? — A.  It  was  reported  that 
he  was  engineering  it  and  shipping  them  to  Indianapolis  in  mail  cars. 
I  think  I  lizard  Mr.  Krouse  there  state  something  of  the  kiud. 

Q.  What  is  Mr.  Krouse’s  politics  ? — A.  He  is  a  National. 

Q.  Then  he  takes  the  same  gloomy  view  of  the  situation  that  you  do  ! 
— A.  I  do  not  think  that  is  necessarily  a  gloomy  view ;  a  truthful  view 
is  not  necessarily  gloomy. 

Q.  Y'ou  said  awhile  ago  that  you  did  not  think  a  funeral  was  a  very 
cheerful  thing,  but  rather  a  gloomy  one.  Would  you  think  that  a  truth¬ 
ful  funeral  would  be  gloomy  ? — A.  Not  necessarily. 

Q.  You  stated  that  leading  Republicans  wanted  these  people  out  there 
to  vote.  What  do  you  know  about  that  ? — A.  I  qualified  that,  and 
stated  that  if  I  could  go  into  it  I  would  give  my  reasons  for  so  speaking. 
I  know  that  Mr.  Holloway  and  others,  when  spoken  to  upon  the  matter, 
would  make  light  of  it  on  the  idea  that  there  was  a  demand  for  labor 
aud  for  these  people. 

Q.  Then  he  does  not  take  the  same  gloomy  view  of  the  condition  of 
the  country  that  you  do  ? — A.  If  you  want  to  hear  what  he  says  and 
my  views  upon  it,  I  will  tell  you.v 

Q.  You  have  been  very  liberal  in  denouncing  Republicans  of  Indiana 
for  encouraging,  as  you  claim,  this  emigration  for  the  alleged  purpose 
of  using  their  votes  ? — A.  No,  sir.  I  do  not  think  that  is  a  proper  infer¬ 
ence. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  say  that  the  Republicans  wanted  them  there  to  vote? 
— A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  say  that  the  leading  Republicans  of  Indianapolis  were 
encouraging  aud  aiding  the  movement? — A.  Y^es,  sir:  but  they  are  not 
all  the  Republicans  in  Indiana,  and  they  do  not  run  the  party  in  that 
State.  They  have  tried  to  several  times  aud  failed.  And  I  will  state 
that  I  think  if  there  was  a  vote  of  the  Republican  party  of  Indiana  taken 
upon  the  subject  nine  out  of  ten  would  vote  against  it.  I  do  not  think 
they  want  these  negroes  there. 

Q.  Now,  then,  according  to  that  statement,  one-tenth  of  them  do. — 
A.  Yes,  sir.  Those  who  expect  to  make  office  out  of  it  would  like  to 
have  them  there. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


235 


Q.  Can  you  name  any  of  those,  any  of  those  leading  Republicans  of 
Indianapolis  who  would  like  to  have  these  negroes  in  Indiana  to  vote  ? 
— A.  Well,  sir,  there  is  Mr.  John  C.  New,  Mr.  Holloway,  Judge  Martin- 
dale,  and  Mr.  Wilduian.  I  have  heard  them  all  say  there  was  room 
enough  for  all  the  labor  in  the  State  that  could  come  there.  I  say  my¬ 
self  that  iu  one  sense  that  is  true;  if  they  bring  men  there  with  money 
to  open  up  coal  mines,  forests,  and  farms,  to  build  iron -works,  and  all 
that,  if  they  mean  that  kind  of  labor,  I  agree  with  them  ;  but  if  it  is 
labor  without  capital,  seeking  wages  only,  I  say  it  is  false. 

Q.  You  say  you  agree  with  them  if  they  mean  it  in  the  sense  that 
you  have  indicated?  How  do  you  know  that  was  not  the  view  they 
took  of  it  when  they  made  the  statement  ? — A.  It  is  impossible  it  could 
have  been.  It  is  these  poor  class  of  people  who  are  coming  iu  there 
now,  and  it  was  with  reference  to  them  they  were  speaking,  and  not  of 
the  other  class  in  the  slightest.  These  negroes  who  come  from  the 
South  and  have  to  be  supported  by  charity  as  soon  as  they  get  there, 
you  may  well  know  they  have  not  capital  and  credit  to  begin  on. 

Q.  Then  because  these  gentlemen  do  not  agree  with  you  as  to  the  in¬ 
dustrial  wants  of  the  State,  you  swear  that  their  desire  is  to  import 
voters  ? — A.  I  always  assume,  sir,  that  if  a  man  is  sane  that  he  has  got 
a  motive' for  what  he  does.  If  he  agrees  to  the  fact  that  two  huudred 
of  these  people  are  there  supported  by  charity  to-day  because  they  can¬ 
not  get  employment,  and  he  still  tries  to  bring  more  of  them,  I  cannot 
see  what  motive  can  be  in  it  except  it  be  to  use  them  as  voters. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  of  those  gentlemen  or  any  other  Republicans 
advocate  their  being  brought  to  Indiana  for  that  purpose? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  the  Indianapolis  Journal  did. 

Q.  Will  you  refer  me  to  the  date  of  the  issue  in  which  that  was  said  ? 
— A.  I  cannot  say  positively  what  the  da'te  was. 

Q.  Do  you  swear  that  any  such  article  was  ever  put  into  that  journal 
or  ever  appeared  in  it  iu  any  shape  advocating  this  exodus  to  Indiana 
as  a  means  of  importing  voters  into  the  State? — A.  Notin  that  lan¬ 
guage,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  what  was  the  language  ? — A.  It  said  that  there  was  room 
for  the  people,  able-bodied  male  laborers,  in  the  State. 

Q.  WTiat  reason  have  you  to  infer  or  to  impugn  their  motives  in  the 
way  that  you  do? — A.  I  do  not  know  that  I  have  done  that. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  it  is  a  bad  motive  if  it  is  to  bring  them  in  there 
in  order  to  carry  the  State  in  the  interest  of  a  political  party  ? — A.  Not 
if  they  bring  them  in  there  to  vote  according  to  the  laws  of  the  State. 
I  do  not  think  a  man  should  impose  ou  another  one  for  any  purpose  in 
the  world,  and  I  do  not  think  it  was  right  to  bring  these  men  there  and 
colonize  them  to  carry  elections. 

Q.  Then,  do  you  think  it  is  right  or  wrong  under  any  circumstances 
to  bring  them  into  the  State  in  order  to  carry  it  in  the  interest  of  their 
party  ? — A.  For  that  purpose,  sir,  I  say  it  is  wrong. 

Q.  You  must  recollect,  sir,  that  you  have  made  a  severe  charge  ou 
these  gentlemen,  and  I  want  to  know  upon  what  ground  you  have  made 
it? — A.  I  say  they  tell  these  people  to  come,  and  that  is  the  only  charge 
I  have  made  against  them. 

Q.  You  say  they  know  that  there  is  no  room  there  for  them,  and  still 
they  tell  them  to  come  ? — A.  I  have  given  you  the  facts,  sir.  I  con¬ 
versed  with  Mr.  Holloway  about  it,  and  he  concedes  that  there  are  two 
hundred  women  and  children  there  being  supported  by  charity ;  that 
means  that  they  are  without  employment  or  the  means  to  support  them¬ 
selves. 


236 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Did  be  say  they  were  brought  there  for  voting  purposes? — A.  Of 
course,  sir,  he  would  deny  it,  but  I  have  my  own  opinion  of  it.  Of 
course  I  do  not  think  that  they  bring  women  and  children  there  to  vote. 

Q.  Do  you  think  one  fifth  of  those  people  are  voters  ? — A.  I  do  not 
think  that  one-fifth  of  these  people  who  came  are  voters. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  if  these  people,  these  leading  Republicans  that 
you  spoke  of,  wanted  voters  brought  into  the  State  they  would  send  and 
get  four  or  five  women  and  childreu  in  order  to  get  one  voter  ? — A.  I 
have  not  said  that,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  they  would  not,  then  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  think  that  is  about  the  proportion  among  those  who  have 
come  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  so. 

Q.  Then,  if  you  make  the  charge  against  them  that  you  have  made 
in  your  direct  examination,  you  charge  them  with  a  want  of  common 
sense? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  think  they  would  have  been  glad  not  to  have 
had  any  women  and  children  come,  but  to  have  had  them  all  voters. 

Q.  You  stated  that  you  judged  all  this  to  be  the  case  from  the  ex¬ 
pressions  of  these  men  themselves.  Now,  have  they  ever  said  one  word 
to  you  about  these  people  coming  there  as  voters? — A.  They  have 
stated  that  there  was  work  and  room  in  the  State  for  able-bodied  male 
laborers,  but  not  any  demand  for  the  labor  of  women  and  children. 

Q.  Do  you  state  your  belief  to  be  that  the  leading  Republicans  of  In¬ 
diana  had  nothing  to  do  with  sending  these  people  out  there? — A.  I 
think,  perhaps,  not  a  half  dozen  of  them  would  approve  of  it  or  favor  it 
except  in  the  sense  of  not  disapproving  of  it. 

Q.  You  think  not  a  half  dozen  of  them,  then,  ever  had  that  motive 
which  you  attribute  to  the  Republican  party  as  a  mass;  in  other  words, 
you  do  not  believe  that  this  was  a  party  movement  ? — A.  That  would 
depend  on  what  you  call  a  party  movement. 

Q.  Didn’t  yofi  state  awhile  ago  that  these  very  men  do  not  constitute  the 
Republican  party  of  Indiana? — A.  I  stated  so,  and  to  what  extent  I 
thought  they  were  participating  in  this  movement. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  say  that  these  men  were  not  the  party  ? — A.  A  party, 
sir,  is  often  chargeable  with  what  its  leaders  do. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  mean  to  repudiate  the  idea  that  they  were  the  Repub¬ 
lican  party  of  the  State  ? — A.  I  repudiated  the  suggestion  of  your  ques¬ 
tion.  You  said  they  constituted  the  Republican  party  of  the  State,  and 
I  said  they  did  not. 

Q.  You  do  not  think  these  half-dozen  men  represent  or  constitute  the 
Republican  party  of  Indiana  ?— A.  There  are  probably  250,000  voters  in 
that  party,  and  these  men  certainly  cannot  be  250,000. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  they  represent  it  ? — A.  I  do  not  think  they  do. 

Q.  You  think  a  half-dozen,  though,  want  to  see  these  men  come  there 
to  vote,  aud  the  others  do  not  ? — A.  I  think  there  are  a  half-dozen 
there  who  do  want  to  see  them  come  there  for  that  purpose. 

Q.  Will  you  give  us  the  names  of  that  half-dozen  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  Mr. 
Holloway,  the  postmaster;  Mr.  Martindale,  the  editor  of  the  Journal; 
Mr.  Reynolds,  one  of  the  assistants  to  Mr.  Holloway,  Mr.  New,  the 
chairman  of  the  Republican  State  Central  Committee;  Mr.  James  A. 
Reynolds,  the  ex-auditor  of  the  State,  and  Mr.  John  T.  Pressley,  the 
present  sheriff  of  county. 

Q.  Is  that  all  ? — A.  They  are  the  only  ones,  1  think,  who  would  take 
any  lively  interest  in  the  matter,  but  I  do  not  say  they  have  been  so. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  that  they  have  done  so? — A.  I  do  not  know  it. 

Q.  And  you  think  it  is  quite  right  to  attribute  such  a  motive  to  them 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  237 

if  you  do  not  know  that  they  had  it? — A.  You  can  attribute  a  motive 
to  a  man  for  what  he  does. 

Q.  That  is,  then,  if  he  does  not  agree  with  you  in  politics  or  in  the 
view  that  he  takes  of  the  industrial  necessities  of  the  State  and  the 
gloomy  condition  of  the  country  generally,  his  motive  is  a  wrong  one  ? — 
A.  Well,  sir,  I  say  that  these  negroes  have  come  to  Indiana  without  any 
good  cause. 

Q.  AVill  you  please  be  kind  enough  to  tell  me  what  you  heard  these 
gentlemen  say  upon  this  subject? — A.  I  have  not  talked  with  Judge 
Martindale  particularly  about  it,  but  I  have  heard  him  express  an  opin¬ 
ion  in  the  presence  of  others  that  there  was  ample  room  in  Iudiaua  for 
all  the  laborers,  able-bodied,  that  could  get  there. 

Q.  Did  be  'feay  anything  about  politics  in  that  connection  ? — A.  No, 
sir;  but  he  said  that  negroes  were  preferred  as  laborers, 

Q.  Well,  they  say  the  same  thing  about  them  in  the  South  ? — A.  Y"es, 
sir;  I  heard  it  said  here  this  morning. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  in  that  conversation  with  reference  to  this 
exodus  being  a  political  movement? — A.  Not  a  word,  sir,  as  to  partisan 
politics,  but  we  attribute  to  him  the  responsibility  for  the  policy  and 
conduct  of  the  Indianapolis  Journal. 

Q.  Has  he  ever  said  anything  of  that  kind  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  when  the 
Sentinel  would  denounce  the  exodus  the  Journal  would  copy  what  it 
said,  and  add  that  there  was  room  for  ten  thousand  of  these  people  in 
the  State,  and  that  their  coming  would  add  to  the  Republican  vote. 

Q.  Do  you  think  or  know  that  anything  of  that  sort  ever  appeared  in 
the  columns  of  the  Journal  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  think  it  was  about  the 
month  of  December. 

Q.  Do  you  say  on  your  oath  that  it  is  in  there  ? — A.  I  think  it  is  in 
there. 

Q.  Are  you  quite  sure  that  you  did  see  any  such  expression  as  that 
in  there  ? — A.  I  think  it  is  there,  sir. 

Q.  You  doubt  your  recollection  on  it,  do  you  not  ? — A.  I  do  not,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  Mr.  Buchanan,  you  live  here,  and  will  you  show  us  that  ex¬ 
tract  if  you  can  find  a  file  of  the  Journal  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir.  I 
expected  to  leave  to-night  for  Indiana. 

Q.  Well,  sir,  I  will  try  and  supply  that  myself.  Now,  as  to  Mr.  New, 
what  did  you  hear  him  say  about  it? — A.  I  heard  him  sav  that  there 
was  room  there. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  what  Mr.  New  said? — A.  I  think  I  have  given  all  I 
heard  him  express  about  the  matter. 

Q.  He  spoke  simply  about  the  demand  for  labor  there? — A.  Y^es,  sir; 
in  connection  with  the  fact  of  southern  uegroes  coming  into  the  State. 

Q.  And  that  is  all  he  said  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  all  on  that  point.- 

Q.  What  did  the  other  three  gentlemen  say? — A.  They  said  similar 
things. 

Q.  That  is,  that  there  was  plenty  of  room  in  Indiana  for  good  labor¬ 
ers  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  There  would  be  a  discussion,  and  something  would 
be  said  about  the  Democrats  getting  on  their  ears  about  the  exodus, 
and  gentlemen  would  remark  that  there  was  plenty  of  room  for  the  ne¬ 
groes  in  Iudiana. 

Q.  Well,  the  Democrats  have  been  on  their  ears  about  it,  have  they 
not  ? — A.  I  think  they  have,  sir.  I  say  that  holding  up  the  negro  as  a 
voter  to  the  average  Democrat  in  the  North  is  like  it  is  in  the  South  ;  it 
is  like  water  to  a  person  with  the  hydrophobia. 

Q.  You  spoke  awhile  ago  of  the  condition  of  the  negro  in  the  South  ; 


238 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


did  you  refer  to  what  you  understood  as  bis  condition  in  North  Carolina? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  You  did  not  refer  to  his  condition  in  Mississippi  and  Louisiana  ? — 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  There  are  two  states  of  feeling  about  that;  the  white  people  of 
Mississippi  deny  the  reports  about  the  State,  and  the  wThite  Republi¬ 
cans  of  the  North  assert  that  they  are  true ;  what  is  your  opinion  about 
it? — A.  My  first  opinion  is,  that  if  it  is  really  true  as  the  white  Repub¬ 
licans  in  the  North  say  that  it  is,  and  that  the  negroes  are  hunted  with 
rifles  and  shot-guns,  and  bulldozed,  it  is  the  best  argument  in  the  world 
why  the  Republican  party  ought  to  be  put  out  of  power  as  quickly  as 
possible. 

Q.  And  the  Greenback  party  put  in  % — A.  I  say  it  is  charged  both 
ways.  I  think  a  part  of  these  reported  outrages  are  true,  but  part  of 
them  are  not  true;  and  I  judge  that  a  great  deal  of  it  is  only  said  for 
campaign  purposes  and  use  up  North.  These  reports  generally  accumu¬ 
late  about  that  time,  and  I  say  if  it  is  true,  as  these  reports  allege,  it  is 
the  strongest  arraignment  of  the  Republican  party  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  You  stated,  I  believe,  that  the  white  people  of  the  South  treated 
them  better  than  the  white  people  of  the  North  ? — A.  That  is  my  opin¬ 
ion  as  to  North  Carolina. 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion  of  the  treatment  they  receive  from  the  peo¬ 
ple  of  Mississippi  and  Louisiana  % — A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about 
what  it  is. 

Q.  Have  you  an  opinion  ? — A.  My  opinion  to-day  is,  and  my  facts 
are  slender,  that  if  true  it  is  infamous. 

Q.  Then  you  have  no  opinion  as  to  what  is  the  truth  ? — A.  I  think 
from  the  representations  made  public,  that  the  colored  people  are  better 
off  in  North  Carolina  than  in  any  other  Southern  State. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  of  Mississippi  and  Louisiana,  and  as  to  whether 
they  are  better  treated  there  than  negroes  in  the  North  ? — A.  I  don’t 
know  ;  that  is,  I  don't  want  you  and  this  honorable  committee  to  under¬ 
stand  that  I  intimate  that  colored  people  are  oppressed  at  the  North,  for 
they  are  not. 

Q.  Then  you  cannot  answer  my  question  ? — A.  My  general  informa¬ 
tion  is,  that  they  are  not  treated  so  well. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  information  ? — A.  In  part,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  would  qualify  your  former  statement  by  saying  they  are 
treated  better  in  North  Carolina  ?— A.  I  don’t  qualify,  because  I  con¬ 
fined  it  to  North  Carolina  when  I  made  it. 

Q.  You  don’t  want  to  say  that  is  true  of  the  South  generally  ? — A.  I 
don’t  think  I  have  said  any  such  thing. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  white  people  of  Louisiana  and  Mississippi  treat 
the  colored  people  in  those  States  as  well  as  the  colored  people  are 
treated  living  in  the  North? — A.  My  information  is  such  that  I  think 
they  are  not;  there  are  two  statements  made  of  the  case  ;  if  one  state¬ 
ment  is  true  their  condition  is  horrible,  if  the  other  is  true  it  is  lovely. 

Q.  Please  answer  my  question. — A.  I  state  from  my  information.  I 
would  think  they  wTere  not  so  well  treated  in  those  localities  as  in  the 
North  Carolina  regions,  and  I  stated  two  views  of  the  case  that  have 
been  presented.  I  said  if  the  facts  were  true  as  presented  by  the  Re¬ 
publicans  the  situation  of  the  colored  man  there  was  horrible,  and  if  true 
as  the  Democrats  say,  lovely. 

Q.  Which  do  you  believe  ? — A.  I  believe  a  part  of  both. 

Q.  Averaging  it,  which  do  you  believe? — A.  I  believe  that  they  are 

ot  so  well  treated. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


239 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  the  14th  article  of  the  Constitution,  sec¬ 
tion  1st  of  the  same  article,  which  says  :  “All  persons  born  or  natural* 
ized  in  the  United  States  and  subject  to  the  jurisdiction  thereof  are  citi¬ 
zens  of  the  United  States  and  of  the  State  wherein  they  reside.  No 
State  shall  make  or  enforce  any  law  which  shall  abridge  the  privileges 
or  immunities  of  citizens  of  the  United  States  ;  nor  shall  any  State  de¬ 
prive  any  person  of  life,  liberty,  or  property  without  due  process  of  law  • 
nor  deny  to  any  person  within  its  jurisdiction  the  equal  protection  of  the 
laws.77  Are  you  familiar  with  those  provisions  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  ^ 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion  of  a  party  and  the  leaders  of  a  party,  espe¬ 
cially  in  Congress,  who  insisted  that  the  colored  people  of  the  United 
States  who  have  been  made  citizens  are  denied  their  rights  and  deprived 
of  protection  to  life  and  liberty,  and  of  those  within  the  jurisdiction  of 
the  United  States  who  claim  that  they  are  not  given  equal  protection 
under  the  laws,  what  do  you  think  of  a  party  claiming  that  and  who 
as  yet  have  taken  no  steps  of  any  kind  by  resolution  or  act  in  either 
branch  of  Congress  for  the  past  six  years  looking  to  the  remedy  of  that 
situation  of  affairs  ? — A.  I  take  it  as  simply  infamous,  and  I  say  it  is 
one  of  the  bitterest  things  for  which  I  arraign  the  Republican  party. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  move  made  by  any  Senator  or  member  of  the 
Republican  party  looking  to  anything  of  the  kind? — A.  I  think  there 
has  been  none  since  the  virtue  and  brain  of  the  Republican  party  left  it 
and  died  out  of  it. 

Q.  Who  do  you  think  composed  the  virtue  and  brain  of  the  Republi¬ 
can  party  ? — A.  I  think  men  like  Charles  Sumner,  Wilson,  Chase, 
Thaddeus  Stevens,  Greeley,  and  others  I  might  mention. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  15th  amendment,  which  says  that — 

The  right  of  citizens  of  the  United  States  to  vote  shall  not  be  denied  or  abridged  by 
the  ETnited  States  or  by  any  State  on  account  of  race,  color,  or  previous  condition  of 
servitude  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  the  15th  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Q.  Would  you  suppose  that  honest  and  fair  men,  and  they  are  all 
honorable  men  who  would  insist  that  that  provision  of  the  Constitution 
is  habitually  violated  and  who  believed  it,  would  sit  by  and  see  it  done 
when  they  have  the  power  to  remedy  the  evil  by  legislation  here  ? — A. 
I  think  they  cannot  believe  it  ;  if  they  did,  such  conduct  would  be  infa¬ 
mous  ;  there  is  uo  other  way  that  will  suit  the  case. 

Q.  Does  not  the  attitude  of  the  Republican  party  upon  the  subject 
prove  to  you  that  these  things  are  not  true  and  they  don’t  believe 
them  ? — A.  It  proves  one  of  two  things,  either  the  fact  does  not  exist 
or  they  want  to  use  it  for  some  other  purpose. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Thos.  P.  Mills  who  testified  be¬ 
fore  this  committee,  or  did  you  hear  of  it  ? — A.  I  heard  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  that  he  said  he  told  his  friends  when  they  first  came 
to  Indiana,  these  emissaries  of  the  exodus,  that  they  wanted  20,000 
bucks,  meaning  men  without  women,  to  go  to  Indiana  ? — A.  I  did  not 
hear  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  his  saying  that  his  sentiments  upon  this  subject 
were  shared  by  leading  and  prominent  Republicans  of  Indiana  ? — A. 
Well,  sir,  I  will  not  say  anything  about  that;  the  general  matter  which 
I  heard  in  relation  to  his  testimony  was  that  he  was  a  Republican  from 
Indiana,  and  was  giving  the  Republian  party  a  heavy  lift. 

Bv  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Mills  ? — A.  I  have  a  short  acquaintance  with 


'240 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


him.  I  simply  know  he  is  of  the  firm  of  Morris  &  Mills,  and  they  have 
a  business  house  or  office  there. 

Q.  Mr.  Yoorhees  seems  to  have  called  you  as  an  expert  with  rela¬ 
tion  to  the  conduct  of  political  parties;  assuming  the  fact  to  be  true 
that  you  are,  I  will  ask  you  some  questions.  What  political  party  con¬ 
trols  the  State  legislature  and  State  offices  in  the  South? — A.  The 
Democrats,  I  believe,  without  exception.  They  were  controlled  by  Re- 
publicans  at  one  time. 

Q.  How  long  ago  ? — A.  I  believe  the  last  time  the  Republicans  got  a 
usufruct ,  to  use  Mr.  Tilden’s  expression,  out  of  the  South,  was  when 
they  got  the  electoral  votes  of  South  Carolina,  Florida,  and  Louisiana. 

Q.  All  those  States  are  now  in  the  hands  of  the  Democrats. — A. 
Yres,  sir. 

Q.  All  the  courts  and  offices  generally  are  in  the  hands  of  the  Demo¬ 
crats  ? — A.  YVs,  sir;  nearly  all. 

Q.  Don’t  you  understand  that  there  are  many  strong  Republican  dis¬ 
tricts  in  the  South  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  a  good  many  strong  Republican  States  if  the  colored  people 
were  allowed  to  vote  1 — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  that  there  are  no  representatives  in  the  Senate 
representing  the  South,  except  twTo  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  of  a  party  which  controls  all  these  Southern 
States  in  legislatures,  executive  offices,  aud  courts,  and  who  by  the  use 
of  shotguns  and  tissue  ballots  aud  bulldozing  run  negroes  out  of  the 
State,  aud  which  permits  men  of  the  same  party  to  meet  them  on  their 
arrival  at  the  North  with  mobs  and  house  burnings  and  threats  of  vio¬ 
lence — what  do  you  think  of  that  party? — A.  Assuming  the  facts  to  be 
true,  it  is  simply  infamous. 

Senator  Windom.  Well,  now,  since  you  have  got  us  both  infamous,  I 
will  let  you  go. 

By  Senator  VANCE : 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if,  since  these  States  passed  into  the  bauds  of  the 
Democrats,  it  is  not  a  fact  that  there  have  been  less  complaints  of 
wrongs  and  violence  to  the  negroes  in  those  States  than  at  any  other 
time  since  the  war  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  there  are  less  complaints  of 
misrule  there. 

Q.  You  think  there  are  less  complaints  from  the  colored  people? — A. 
Y"es,  sir.  But  about  the  time  of  elections  they  Hood  the  Northern 
country  with  outrage  literature  of  the  most  horrible  kind,  but  I  know 
of  no  great  outrages  from  that  section  since  the  Chisholm  murder. 

Q.  You  made  use  of  the  expression  that  it  was  infamous  for  a  party 
to  let  these  things  go  on  and  not  attempt  to  put  a  stop  to  them.  Do 
you  think  it  is  infamous  for  a  man  to  cut  the  throat  of  the  horse  that 
has  been  carrying  him  on  its  back  ? — A.  What  do  you  mean  ? 

Q.  I  mean,  if  these  outrages  were  corrected  the  Republican  party 
would  have  nothing  to  carry  them  through  the  election. — A.  They  as¬ 
sert  that  this  class  of  outrages  occur,  aud  I  say  if  they  are  in  power  and 
do  not  correct  them,  it  is  simply  infamous. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  that  they  could  not  carry  the  elections  without 
them;  and  if  that  is  true,  it  is  wise  and  profitable  not  to  correct  them? — 
A.  No,  sir;  I  think  it  rather  deepens  their  infamy. 

Q.  You  say  they  can  correct  these  things,  and  they  do  not  do  it  ? — A. 

I  think  thev  can. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  Then  you  think  the  Republican  party  is  infamous  because  it  does 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


241 


not  protect  the  Democratic  party  of  the  South  t — A.  I  say,  if  these 
things  are  not  true  the  Republicans  of  the  North  are  lying  about  it ; 
and  if  they  are  true,  they  are  not  doing  their  duty  in  forgetting  these 
colored  people. 

Q.  If  any  considerable  part  of  it  is  true,  don’t  you  think  the  Republi¬ 
can  party  is  infamous  for  not  punishing  the  Democratic  party  of  the 
South! — A.  I  have  had  some  pretty  hard  lights  against  the  Democratic 
party  and  the  Republican  party,  too,  and  1  expect  more  of  them,  and  to 
say  something  upon  this  very  subject  in  making  them. 

Q.  You  think  that  the  Republican  party  should  punish  the  Demo¬ 
cratic  party  to  prevent  them  from  bulldozing  the  colored  men  ! — A.  I 
think  it  should  punish  whoever  violates  the  rights  of  a  citizen. 

Q.  Well,  these  things  are  done,  are  they  not! — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  if 
they  are  done  for  political  reasons,  I  think  it  is  more  our  duty  to  punish 
them. 

Q.  You  have  heard  of  this  bulldozing! — A.  I  have  heard  of  Repub¬ 
lican  negroes  who  would  bulldoze  a  Democratic  negro  pretty  lively. 

Q.  Where  did  you  hear  of  it ! — A.  I  heard  of  it  here  on  the  stand. 

The  Chairman.  I  desire  to  put  into  the  record  a  copy  of  two  dis¬ 
patches  which  appear  in  the  Washington  Post  of  thi3  morning,  Feb¬ 
ruary  G : 


TIRED  OF  NEGRO  EMIGRATION. 

Leavenworth,  Kan.,  February  5. 

The  officers  of  the  Kansas  Free  Land  Association  have^Jbeendirected  by  the  direct¬ 
ors  of  the  association  to  devise  a  method  of  diverting  immigration  of  colored  people 
in  Kansas  and  turning  the  tide  to  other  States  in  more  need  of  laborers,  and  where 
the  people  are  better  able  to  care  for  such  as  are  in  destitute  circumstances.  The  relief 
association  is  unable  to  maintain  immigrants  lately  arrived. 

negroes  importing  disease. 

Leavenworth,  Kan.,  February  5. 

In  Emporia  and  one  or  two  other  places  a  new  disease,  which  the  doctors  do  not 
understand,  is  ‘prevalent  among  children.  It  is  a  rash,  resembling  measles,  and  is 
•  very  contagious.  It  was  brought  here  by  the  refugee  negroes  from  the  South.  Many 
cases  have  proved  fatal. 


TESTIMONY  OF  C.  W.  BROUSE. 

C.  W.  Beouse  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside  ! — Answer.  Near  Indianapolis. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  there  ! — A.  Twenty-five  years,  I  think. 

Q.  What  positions  have  you  occupied  there!  Were  you  pension 
agent ! — A.  I  was,  four  years  from  1809 — June,  18G9. 

Q.  I  want  to  examine  you  upon  the  first  point  presented  by  Mr.  Bu¬ 
chanan — that  is,  about  your  knowledge  or  other  men’s  knowledge  of 
the  unemployed  labor  of  the  State.  Give  your  views  to  the  committee 
on  that  subject  in  your  own  way! — A.  My  knowledge  of  the  labor 
question  in  Indiana  is  derived  from  the  leading  newspapers  and  con¬ 
versation  with  gentlemen  from  various  parts  of  the  State.  My  opinion 
is,  from  the  information  that  I  have,  that  there  is  to  day  and  has  been  for 

1G  EX 


242 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


four  or  five  years  past  more  laborers  than  could  get  employment  in  the 
State  of  Indiana.  I  speak  now  from  my  own  personal  knowledge.  My 
residence  is  outside  of  the  city  in  a  farming  community,  and  I  know  a 
number  who  have  been  out  there  for  years  past  seeking  for  work  and 
could  not  get  it  except,  it  was  an  occasional  day’s  labor. 

Q.  Is  it  not  true,  and  has  it  not  been  true  for  several  years  past,  that 
there  has  been  actual  suffering  in  that  section  of  the  country  among  the 
laboring  people  ! — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  very  great. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  there  has  not  been  a  constant  reliance  upon  pub¬ 
lic  and  private  charity  for  the  subsistence  of  able-bodied  men  and  women 
who  would  have  gladly  worked  if  they  had  had  a  chance  ! — A.  That  is 
true,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  not  conspicuously  true  ! — A.  It  is  a  well-known  fact. 

Q.  That  such  is  the  case  ! — A.  I  think  it  is. 

Q.  What  business  are  you  engaged  in  now"? — A.  I  have  been  engaged 
for  the  last  three  or  four  years  in  the  real  estate  business,  purchasing 
and  selling  land. 

Q.  Then  your  attention  has  been  much  directed  to  this  point! — A. 
Yes,  sir;  especially  since  1873. 

Q.  Now  have  you  always  been  a  Republican! — A.  YYs,  sir  ;  up  to  the 
time  of  the  election  of  Mr.  Hayes.  Probably  a  year  after  that  I  left  the 
Republican  party  and  affiliated  with  the  National  party. 

Q.  On  the  slavery  question  your  sympathies  are  all  with  the  colored 
men  !  You  are  as  much  their  friend  as  anybody  in  the  State  !- — A.  I 
think  so. 

Q.  You  were  in  the  military  service! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  know  that  the  prejudice  against  these  people  is  not  on  ac¬ 
count  of  their  color  ! — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  There  is  no  objection  to  their  coming  to  Indiana  if  they  could  be 
provided  for! — A.  No,  sir;  we  would  be  glad  to  see  them. 

Q.  State  what  you  think  of  their  coming  there  now  under  the  circum¬ 
stances  that  they  do! — A.  I  think  their  condition  in  North  Carolina 
would  have  to  be  very  bad  indeed  if  coming  to  Indiana  would  better  it. 

Q.  Have  you  followed  the  testimony  given  here  as  to  the  condition  of 
the  colored  men  who  have  gone  to  Indiana  ! — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  heard  Mr. 
Wootten’s  testimony  as  to  the  state  of  affairs  on  his  plantation. 

Q.  That  is  all  the  means  of  information  that  you  have  as  to  the  con¬ 
dition  of  colored  men  in  North  Carolina  ! — A.  Yes,  sir ;  except  what  I 
read  in  the  newspaper  of  a  gentleman’s  testimony  here  as  to  the  compen¬ 
sation  and  condition  of  the  laborers  there. 

Q.  And  you  think  it  must  be  very  hard  there  if  they  would  better  it 
by  coming  to  Indiana! — A.  Yes,  sir;  especially  at  this  time. 

Q.  Have  you  any  reason  to  believe  that  his  condition  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina  is  so  deplorable  that  it  would  be  bettered  by  coming  to  Indiana  ! — 
A.  Not  at  all. 

Q.  Have  you  auy  information  as  to  their  status  that  you  are  able  to 
state  that  ! — A.  No,  sir  ;  nothing  except  newspaper  reports. 

Q.  You  stated  that  there  was  no  demand  for  laborers  in  Indiana  at 
this  time! — A.  No,  sir;  beyond  the  supply  that  we  have  at  home. 

Q.  Then  there  would  be  no  hostility  to  emigrants  coming  there  who 
are  self-supporting? — A.  I  think  not. 

Q.  And  emigrants  of  any  kind,  white  or  colored,  negro  or  Irish,  who 
would  come  there  and  be  self-supporting,  would  not  be  objected  to  ! — A. 
I  think  not,  sir. 

Q.  There  would  be  opposition  to  any  kind  of  people  being  thrown  on 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES-  243 

public  charity  or  private  charity  with  no  hope  of  their  own  speedy  im¬ 
provement? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  been  to  Indiana  recently? — A.  Hot  within  the  last  thirty 
days. 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  introduction  of  seven  or  eight  hundred  persons 
into  your  State  would  create  widespread  distress  ? — A.  I  think  not,  be¬ 
yond  the  seven  or  eight  hundred  who  came. 

Q.  There  would  be  considerable  distress  occasioned  among  them  ? — 
A.  Some  of  them  might  get  employment,  but  it  would  be  by  throwiug 
others  out,  and  there  would  not  be  enough  of  it  to  support  all  the 
others. 

Q.  Do  you  think  a  laborer  is  worse  off  in  Indiana  than  in  other  States 
of  the  Union? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  as  to  the  other  States  in  the 
Union. 

Q.  You  know  of  no  reason  why  you  should  be  particularly  overstocked 
in  Indiana  beyond  any  other  State  in  the  Union  ? — A.  Ho„sir. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  how  many  of  these  people  have  come  there  ? — A. 
Ho,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  improvement  in  the  times  generally  out  there? — A. 
There  is  some  improvement  in  the  manufacturing  interests  of  the  State, 
and  considerable  in  merchandising. 

Q.  Is  there  any  in  the  agricultural  interests  of  the  State  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir  ;  the  crops  last  year  were  very  tine  indeed. 


TESTIMONY  OF  T.  E.  HOOKER. 

T.  E.  Hooker  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside? — Answer.  In  Greene  County,  Horth 
Carolina. 

Q.  Where  is  Greene  County,  with  reference  to  Leuoir  County  ? — A.  It 
is  adjoining  Lenoir  on  the  northeast. 

Q.  Where  is  your  residence?  How  far  from  La  Grange? — A.  About 
17  miles. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  portion  of  this  exodus  from  your  county? — A. 
Some  few  have  gone  from  there;  I  think  fifty  or  a  hundred  all  told. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  causes  that  induced  them  to  leave  ? — 
A.  I  do  not  know  as  I  do. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  to  any  of  those  who  were  about  to  leave  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  What  did  they  say? — A.  Some  said  they  thought  they  would  bet¬ 
ter  their  condition  in  Indiana,  as  wages  are  higher  there. 

Q.  Did  they  say  they  had  been  told  that? — A.  Yes,  sir;  there  were 
negro  agents  peddling  round  there,  and  telling  them  very  great  things. 
These  men,  Perry  and  Williams,  were  down  there. 

Q.  Did  they  visit  your  county  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir;  but  I  reckon 
thev  did. 

t  • 

Q.  You  do  not  know  that  they  made  any  speeches  there? — A.  Ho,  sir; 
I  do  not. 

Q.  What  were  these  negroes  told  they  could  get  in  Indiana? — A. 
They  were  told  that  they  could  get  $1.50  and  $2  a  day,  and  in  the  harvest¬ 
ing  season  that  they  would  get  $0  a  day. 


244 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  That  is  what  they  were  told  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  about  their  transportation  ?-  A.  Some  of  them  went  think¬ 
ing  they  were  going  to  go  free.  They  went  to  Goldsborough  and  found  it 
was  different,  and  they  came  back.  Some  of  those  who  went  off  from 
my  place  came  back. 

Q.  What  is  the  condition  of  the  colored  people  in  your  county  ? — A. 
About  as  good  as  it  is  anywhere. 

Q.  As  good  as  any  of  the  adjoining  counties? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  W^hat  wages  do  they  get  ? — A.  A  good  negro  hand  can  get  from 
$S  to  $10  a  month. 

Q.  What  does  that  include? — A.  That  includes  furnishing  him  a 
house,  rent  free,  firewood  free,  and  giving  him  a  little  patch  to  cultivate, 
and  furnishing  him  with  rations. 

Q.  Is  that  the  general  rule  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  for  A  No.  1  hands? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  what  length  of  time  does  the  hiring  extend  ? — A.  A  great  many 
times  it  is  for  twelve  months,  from  January  to  January  straight  through. 
After  they  get  through  picking  cotton,  then  they  go  to  raising  manure 
for  the  other  crop. 

'  Q.  What  can  hands  get  for  a  day’s  work  by  the  day? — A.  Fifty  to 
sixty  cents;  I  have  had  to  pay  a  little  more  than  that. 

Q.  And  do  you  feed  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  can  hands  make  hiring  in  that  way  during  the  fall  season 
when  cotton  begins  to  open? — A.  It  depends  on  what  kind  of  a  hand  it 
is.  Boys  and  girls  can  make  as  much  as  a  man  pickiug  cotton. 

Q.  What  do  you  pay  ? — A.  Fifty  cents  a  hundred. 

Q.  The  picking  of  cotton  depends  as  much  on  skill  as  it  does  on 
strength  ? — A.  More  so. 

Q.  What  can  a  man  pick  out  in  a  day  ?• — A.  With  good  cotton  he  can 
pick  from  150  to  300  or  400  pounds. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  of  a  good  picker  ? — A.  175  to  200  pounds. 

Q.  That  would  be  seventy-five  cents  to  a  dollar  a  day  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Cotton  begins  to  open  about  the  10th  of  September,  does  it  not  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  does  it  continue? — A.  Up  to  about  Christmas.  Of 
course  as  winter  comes  on  the  cotton  gets  scarcer. 

Q.  What  are  the  politics  of  your  county  ? — A.  Republican. 

Q.  What  is  the  population  of  white  and  colored  Republicans  ? — A. 
There  are  about  100  white  Republicans  and  800  colored. 

Q.  W7hat  is  your  usual  Republican  majority? — A.  150  to  200. 

Q.  Do  you  know  or  have  you  heard  of  any  bulldozing  of  the  colored 
people  in  your  section  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  they  vote  as  free  there  as  any¬ 
where  in  America.  They  hold  their  meetings  and  have  their  votes. 
There  are  people  at  the  polls  to  look  after  that,  and  they  are  generally 
colored. 

Q.  Then  you  know  of  no  case  in  the  shape  of  political  persecution 
that  should  have  made  these  men  leave  their  homes  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  state  of  feeling  between  the  two  classes  there? — A. 
It  is  kindly ;  there  is  no  hostility  between  the  two  classes  that  I  know 
of. 


TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  O.  KELLY. 

John  O.  Kelly  (colored)sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  Yance  : 

Question.  WTiere  is  your  residence? — Answer.  Raleigh,  North  Carolina. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  245 

Q.  What  is  your  profession  or  business? — A.  I  am  doing  a  livery 
business — all  that  is  done  there. 

Q.  You  run  a  livery  stable  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  own  any  property  ? — A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  own  any  real  estate? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  own  some  outside 
of  the  corporation  of  the  town,  and  I  have  got  a  house  and  home. 

Q.  You  were  formerly  a  slave  ? — A.  Yes,  sir :  I  used  to  belong  to 
General  Cox. 

Q.  How  much  property  at  a  round  guess  are  you  worth  now  ? — A.  I 
do  not  know,  sir ;  but  I  would  not  to  night  take  less  than  $5,000  for  what 
I  have  got. 

Q.  Have  you  made  all  that  as  a  free  man  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  had 
nothing  at  the  time  of  the  surrender. 

Q.  There  is  a  large  colored  population  in  Wake  County,  is  there  not  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir  ;  Wake  has  a  large  population  that  is  colored. 

Q.  What  are  the  politics  of  the  county  ? — A.  Wake  County  goes  Re¬ 
publican.  It  has  failed  one  year  of  going  Republican.  It  failed  to 
supply  the  members  of  the  general  assembly.  With  the  exception  of 
that  it  goes  Republican. 

Q.  By  what  majority? — A.  Well,  it  is  pretty  close.  Along  at  first  it 
was  about  250,  but  now  they  are  beginning  to  hew  it  down. 

Q.  Which  are  the  largest  in  number  in  the  county,  the  whites  or  the 
blacks? — A.  You  mean  the  voting  population? 

Q.  Yes. — A.  The  colored  people. 

Q.  The  colored  people  are  the  strongest  ?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  I  want  the  truth  all  to  come  out,  and  I  want  you  to  tell  us 
what  you  can  say  of  the  condition  of  the  colored  people  in  Wake 
County,  as  to  their  right  to  vote  and  the  enjoyment  of  their  liberties 
generally  ? — A.  Their  right  to  vote  and  their  liberty  in  Wake  County 
is  certainly  good.  The  colored  people  in  Wake  County  have  their  lib¬ 
erty,  and  their  privileges  are  good.  They  have  free  access  at  the  ballot- 
box  in  Wake  as  much  as  in  any  county  in  North  Carolina.  We  have 
as  little  trouble  there  as  anywhere.  We  have  very  few  difficulties 
about  Raleigh. 

Q.  Do  they  vote  just  as  they  please? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  do.  I  do 
not  think  we  have  half  a  dozen  colored  voters  in  Wake  County  but 
what  votes  the  Republican  ticket.  One  or  two  men  have  voted  the 
Democratic  ticket,  but  the  others  scorn  them  and  done  so  much  to  them 
that  I  think  they  are  about  worn  out  at  it. 

Q.  That  was  for  voting  the  Democratic  ticket?— A.  Yes,  sir:  that 
is  so. 

Q.  What  is  the  state  of  feeling  there  between  the  white  and  colored 
people? — A.  The  state  of  feeling  betwixt  the  white  and  colored  people 
in  Wake  is  very  good.  Unless  you  count  some  little  peculiar  feelings 
between  some  people  which  has  had  trouble,  that  feeling  is  now  good. 
There  was  a  little  hard  feeling  after  the  war,  but  that  was  because  they 
once  owned  us  and  ruled  us  and  then  they  could  not,  but  all  that  has 
worn  out. 

Q.  Does  a  colored  man  have  the  same  right  to  make  his  living  and 
fortune  as  a  white  man  ? — A.  Yes,  sir,  so  far  as  be  is  able  to  do  so.  The 
white  people  have  got  the  advantage,  because  they  had  land  at  the  sur¬ 
render  and  the  colored  folks  didn’t.  Some  of  them  thought  they  were 
going  to  have  land  given  to  them,  but  a  good  many  have  bought  land 
there  in  Wake  Countv.  It  is  like  some  of  vour  own  race,  who  never 
had  anything  and  never  will  have  it.  It  is  like  a  man  who  went  off  at 
sixteen  and  married  and  have  children,  and  never  had  twenty-five  cents 


246 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


to  his  name.  That  is  the  way  with  both  races,  and  a  great  many  of 
them  never  have  anything.  It  will  be  a  long  time  before  they  will  have 
anything.  It  is  not  every  man  that  can  build  up.  Now,  amongst  my 
people  there  are  a  great  many  who  have  to  work  for  wages,  and  a  great 
many  rent  land  to  make  a  crop.  So  far  as  malice  is  concerned,  there  is 
very  little  betwixt  the  white  and  colored  in  Wake  County. 

Q.  If  a  man  wanted  to  employ  a  laborer  down  there,  would  he  refuse 
to  employ  a  man  because  he  was  black  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  your  people  find  any  discrimination  against  them  on  that 
account? — A.  No,  sir;  but  you  have  made  a  pretty  good  scope  there, 
and  you  must  give  me  time  to  digress  and  come  back.  You  know  there 
are  both  kinds  there,  but  the  colored  men  won’t  be  paid  the  same  wages. 
They  work  at  the  same  bench  and  all  that,  but  they  won’t  get  as  much 
for  it.  The  people  of  the  South  and  of  Wake  County  prefer  colored 
labor,  and  the  reason  they  do  is  that  they  have  been  pretty  apt  always 
at  ordering  it  about,  and  they  can  still  do  that  with  a  colored  man  bet¬ 
ter  than  with  a  white  man.  They  can  use  the  colored  labor  better  than 
they  can  the  white,  and  I  consider  myself  it  is  the  best  labor  in  the 
circle  of  the  sun.  They  were  turned  loose  by  that  great  party  that  gave 
us  this  liberty,  but  they  did  not  make  provision  for  them.  The  colored 
men  have  been  two  centuries  without  education,  and  are  like  many 
whites  in  our  town  now  aud  before  the  war.  They  come  to  town,  for 
instance,  with  three  dozen  eggs,  and  you  say  what  you  will  give  them, 
but  they  say,  UI  cannot  take  this  money  until  I  go  and  see  Mr.  Adams,” 
or  somebody  else,  because  they  do  not  know  the  money,  and  have  to 
have  somebody  to  tell  them  about  it,  and  it  used  to  keep  the  poor  whites 
and  the  blacks  back.  That  was  the  cause  that  they  could  control  them. 
As  to  this  great  movement  of  the  exodus,  that  we  don’t  know  anything 
about  except  by  a  few  sketches  in  the  papers.  I  do  not  know  anything 
of  that  kind.  As  to  brick-masons  and  carpenters  getting  the  same  wages 
though,  they  can’t  do  it,  because  the  white  folks  won’t  give  it. 

Q.  About  what  price  is  paid  for  farm  laboiers  in  Wake  County  • — A. 
Well,  sir,  there  is  a  big  farm  right  in  front  of  me,  1  suppose  the  biggest 
in  the  vicinity  of  Raleigh.  They  pay  their  best  hands  $10,  and  ©n  down 
to  $8,  and  $7,  and  $6.  They  have  been  offering  as  low  as  $G,  and  a 
great  many  say  $6  is  all  they  will  give  ;  but  $6  to  $10  is  the  average 
price. 

•  Q.  That  is  according  to  the  quality  of  the  hand  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  does  he  get  besides  his  pay  ? — A.  Where  he  is  hired  he  gets 
his  pay,  and  they  give  him  3i  pounds  of  meat  and  a  peck  of  meal  a  week. 
Some  give  5  pounds,  but  more  give  3J  pounds  aud  a  peck  of  meal.  A 
good  many  do  not  board  them,  but  most  give  them  rations. 

Q.  Do  they  give  them  a  house  ? — A.  O,  yes,  they  give  them  a  house. 

Q.  Aud  firewood  free  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Pasture  for  a  cow  if  they  have  got  one  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir, 
about  that.  There  are  not  many  who  are  going  to  live  out  if  they'  have 
got  a  cow  and  such  things  as  that.  They  will  do  business  for  themselves. 

Q.  There  is  no  exodus  from  your  county  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  be¬ 
lieve  there  is  one  that  has  left  there. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  the  feeling  of  kindness  between  the  two  classes  has 
not  been  increasing  of  late  years — if  legislation  has  not  done  more  to 
help  the  colored  people  along  since  it  became  Democratic  than  before  ? — 
A.  Of  course,  on  account  of  prejudice  being  worn  down  a  great  deal, 
they  is  in  a  better  condition.  I  say  it  all  came  about  when  you  was  in 
charge.  I  never  voted  for  you  because  you  are  a  Democrat,  and  I  said, 
if  you  carried  out  what  you  preached  around  in  the  campaign  I  certainly 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


247 


would  leave  North  Carolina.  I  thought  you  were  going  to  make  some  laws 
to  keep  men  from  leaving  and  moving  about ;  but  after  you  got  elected 
and  got  your  seat  you  did  more  for  the  colored  people  than  any  other  gov¬ 
ernor  we  have  had  since  we  have  been  free  men.  Our  other  Republican 
governors  did  not  have  a  backbone,  but  give  out ;  but  Governor  Yance 
called  us  snake-killers,  and  I  thought  he  was  going  to  be  a  snake-killer 
and  go  for  us.  Then  after  him  comes  Governor  Jarvis,  and  I  would 
take  his  advice  to  the  colored  people  as  quick  as  any  man’s  except  Gov¬ 
ernor  Vance.  Still  when  Governor  Yance  was  running  I  feared  him, 
and  thought  I’d  have  to  move.  I  had  a  house  and  home,  and  me  and 
my  partner  were  doing  all  of  the  livery  business,  and  we  was  colored 
men.  We  is  doing  all  the  business  in  that  town  ;  and  as  for  respect  I 
do  not  want  any  more  than  is  shown  me  in  Wake  County  from  every 
man  who  knows  John  O.  Kelly. 

Q.  Is  not  every  other  colored  man  given  the  same  respect  that  you 
are  who  is  sober  and  industrious  ? — A.  Governor,  you  put  a  good  deal 
in  there.  Where  they  see  he  has  taken  a  start  in  an  early  day  and  got 
a  foothold  they  will  help  him.  I  have  seen  the  time  since  the  panic 
when  I  could  take  two  of  my  sons  and  go  to  the  bank  and  borrow  $500  as 
quick  as  any  man  ;  and  no  man  who  is  true  to  his  word  and  honest  but  can 
do  it.  But  there  is  one  deficiency  among  my  people ;  there  are  too  many 
men  who  want  to  make  a  crop  without  paying  a  man  for  his  labor. 
When  I  speak  of  these  men  I  have  to  digress  to  get  at  all  of  these  points. 
In  my  days  if  there  was  a  school-book  found  in  the  house  of  a  darkey 
he  got  nine  and  thirty  lashes  for  it.  Where  a  man  has  got  a  wife  and 
child  and  gets  $G  a  month  he  cannot  live  and  be  honest.  I  hire  seven 
men,  and  I  pay  one  of  them  $7,  another  $G,  and  the  others  $5.50  a  week, 
and  I  see  that  they  have  to  work.  I  see  so  many  of  our  people  going 
to  the  jails  and  penitentiary  that  I  have  been  very  much  disturbed. 
They  have  got  so  that  they  put  a  man  in  jail  if  he  steals  a  big  potatoe. 
Gentlemen,  do  get  to  work,  and  get  this  thing  done  ;  you  have  got  the 
sense  to  do  it,  and  you  fix  it  good.  Get  together  when  these  things 
occur,  and  say  to  a  fellow,  Sam,  you  stole  a  piece  of  meat  from  me,  and 
let  us  see  if  we  cannot  fix  it  up  without  the  law  and  the  jail ;  ’cause 
when  he  gets  in  the  solicitor’s  hands  he  has  to  get  $4  costs,  and  then 
you  go  sure  to  the  penitentiary.  If  you  give  a  man  good  wages  he  will 
look  to  your  interest,  but  for  these  $5  and  $6  a  month  a  man  cannot  get 
a  good  living  to  save  his  life  and  live  an  houest  one. 

Q.  How  is  it  about  the  education  of  the  colored  people  down  there? — 
A.  Well,  governor,  in  Wake  County  I  do  not  complain  about  it.  All 
my  politics,  gentlemen,  is  that  if  a  man  has  got  25  cents  I  will  take  him 
up-town  on  my  omnibus;  but  in  regard  to  Wake  County,  the  schools  are 
good,  still  there  is  some  little  complaining  among  folks  who  do  not  know 
what  they  want.  The  complaining  was  about  the  last  legislature  taking 
the  school  committee  out  of  the  hands  of  the  people,  and  giving-  the 
magistrates  the  power  to  appoint  them.  That  is  one  of  the  greatest 
complaints  among  the  people.  You  wanted  when  you  were  governor 
to  issue  money  for  the  graded  schools,  and  worked  hard  to  do  it,  and 
Governor  Jarvis  is  trying  to  do  it  still.  Everything  is  getting  along 
pretty  well,  and  there  is  no  complaint  except  where  the  county  has  got 
no  money,  and  the  schools  do  not  keep  up  long  enough.  Any  man  will 
complain  when  he  has  got  nothing,  and  must  eat  even  if  he  has  to  steal 
it. 

Q.  The  chance  of  a  colored  child  being  educated  is  as  good  as  that  of 
the  whites  ? — A.  Yes  sir  ;  I  send  four  of  mine  to  school  all  the  time. 

Q.  There  is  a  normal  school  there  for  the  purpose  of  educating  teach- 


248 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


ers  for  your  race? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  they  have  got  a  department  of  that 
house,  too,  at  the  Methodist  church. 

Q.  Who  is  the  county  treasurer? — A.  John  B.  Neathery. 

Q.  What  are  his  politics? — A.  Republican. 

Q.  I  want  to  read  you  an  extract  from  his  report  (reading)  : 


la  closing  this  statement  of  the  county  finances  for  the  past  fiscal  year,  which  I  have 
labored  to  make  full  and  explicit  in  every  respect,  if  you  will  permit  me,  gentlemen,’ 
I  will  mention  a  few  facts,  not  having  a  necessary  connection  therewith,  but  which 
bear  high  testimony  to  the  peaceable  and  law-abiding  character  of  the  people  of  Wake 
County,  and  which  should  be  gratifying  to  every  good  citizen. 

With  a  population  of  near  50,000,  including  the  capital  of  the  State,  we  have  never 
had  a  mob,  riot,  or  serious  disturbance  of  the  peace  during  the  past  fifteen  years.  Al¬ 
though  the  candidates  of  the  two  political  parties  have  in  every  campaign  conducted 
a  joint  canvass,  and  party  feeling  has  at  times  run  high,  yet  we  have  not  had  a  single 
murder,  homicide,  or  death  occurring  from  any  fight,  or  political  disturbance,  or  race 
difficulty  in  twenty  years.  During  the  past  three  years  we  have  had  in  the  county 
only  three  deaths  from  violence.  In  one  of  these  a  white  man  slew  a  white  man ; 
in  the  second  a  colored  man  slew  a  colored  man  ;  and  the  third,  was  a  case  where  a 
fugitive  from  justice  was  slain  by  an  officer  while  attempting  to  evade  arrest.  It 
must  be  borne  in  mind  also  that  the  State  penitentiary  is  located  in  our  county,  and 
all  the  convicts  from  the  entire  State,  whose  terms  of  service  expire,  are  turned  loose  in 
our  midst,  thus  swelling  our  criminal  population. 

To  show  the  good  feeling  existing  between  the  two  races  in  the  county,  it  is  only 
necessary  to  refer  to  one  or  two  facts  :  At  an  election  in  Raleigh  Township  last  spring, 
on  the  question  of  levying  an  additional  tax  on  property  for  the  support  of  graded 
schools,  for  each  race,  there  were  but  thirty  votes  cast  against  the  proposition,  though 
the  bulk  of  the  property  is  owned  by  our  white  population,  and  it  was  well  known 
that  the  colored  children  were  entitled,  under  the  law,  to  share  equally  with  the 
whites  in  the  benefits  of  the  tax  raised ;  and  a  good  jmrtion  of  the  thirty  votes  against 
the  tax  were  cast  by  colored  voters,  under  a  misapprehension. 

On  the  other  hand,  to  show  the  kind  feeling  of  our  colored  population  towards  the 
whites,  it  is  only  necessary  to  state  the  fact  that  we  have  three  colored  fire  compa¬ 
nies  in  this  city,  who  are  always  among  the  very  first  to  respond  to  the  alarm  of  fire, 
and  none  strive  harder  or  incur  greater  risks  of  life  and  limb  to  save  the  property  of 
their  white  fellow -citizens  from  destruction,  though  a  comparatively  small  number  of 
these  colored  firemen  own  any  real  property  themselves.  *  *  *  I  also  deem  it  a 

matter  of  great  gratification  that  we  have  at  this  date  more  and  better  public  school- 
houses  for  each  race ;  more  and  better  teachers  ;  a  larger  number  of  children  in  the 
schools;  and  a  greater  interest  manifested  in  the  cause  of  general  education  than  at 
any  previous  time  in  the  history  of  the  county. 

Respectfully  submitted. 


JOHN  B.  NEATHERY, 

Treasurer. 


Q.  Is  that  a  pretty  truthful  statement  of  affairs  there  ? — A.  It  is  as 
good  as  can  be  gotten  up  anywhere  as  to  those  firemen.  The  white 
folks  have  got  an  engine  there,  and  a  pair  of  horses  that  cost  five  hun¬ 
dred  dollars.  But  you  let  the  fire  bell  ring,  and  the  colored  people  are 
the  first  to  get  there,  and  if  they  are  going  to  put  the  fire  out  at  all  they 
will  done  have  put  it  out  before  the  others  get  there.  The  other  night 
Haygood’s  stable  caught  on  fire,  and  the  colored  folks  put  it  out,  and 
the  whites  come  and  gave  their  excuse  that  somebody  stole  their  little 
truck  or  wood  wagon  ;  but  the  truth  is  they  haven’t  got  the  grit,  no 
how. 

Q.  So  far  as  there  is  any  political  persecution  or  bulldozing,  you 
know  of  no  reason  why  they  should  pick  up  and  leave  there  ? — A.  There 
is  none  in  our  county.'  I  don’t  know  what  it  is  below,  but  I  know 
sometimes  when  they  don’t  register  somebody  will  try  to  keep  a  man 
from  voting.  There  are  some  little  differences  of  that  kind,  but  there  is 
no  bulldozing  and  saying  a  man  shall  not  vote.  I  don’t  see  anything  of 
that  kind  down  there.  The  trouble  is  this  back  law  and  returning 
board,  where  if  they  get  elected  they  count  you  out;  it  seems  to  me 
they  have  all  learned  schemes  down  there  by  it. 

1/ 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


249 


By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  the  returning  board  ? — A.  I  mean  where  a 
man  gets  elected  and  is  counted  out.  I  think  Mr.  Bledsoe  was  elected 
to  the  legislature  the  last  time.  Before  they  got  done  voting  I  think 
they  counted  him  out. 

Q.  That,  was  done  by  the  Democrats? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  was,  but  I 
don’t  know  where  these  returning  boards  first  came  from. 

Q.  When  was  the  first  time  you  heard  of  them  ? — A.  The  first  I  heard 
of  them  was  when  Mr.  Hayes  was  elected  up  here. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  them  in  North  Carolina  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  that 
they  call  them  returning  boards,  but  they  have  got  the  same  kind  of 
schemes  for  counting  a  man  out.  I  think  they  counted  Mr.  O’Hara 
out.  It  don’t  make  any  difference  what  you  call  it,  but  I  call  them  re¬ 
turning  boards  since  you  all  got  the  name  up. 

Q.  Your  legislature  is  Democratic  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  this  last 
time  they  had  two  majority.  I  know  they  ail  had  to  stay  at  the  rack 
very  closely. 

Q.  Well,  these  men  who  were  counted  out  were  Republicans, were  they 
not? — A.  I  do  not  know  what  Mr.  Bledso  was,  as  he  would  not  tell 
which  way  he  was  going.  I  think  he  would  have  been  a  Republican  if 
he  had  got  counted  in.  I  think  he  ought  to  have  been  put  in,  as  he  was 
in  such  a  good  move  for  us,  as  he  wanted  to  bring  a  railroad  from  the 
western  part  of  the  State  right  to  Raleigh. 

Q.  Wras  there  some  complaint  about  these  men  being  counted  out  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  that  come  from  Democrats  or  Republicans? — A.  I  cannot 
tell  which  it  came  from.  I  think  both  sides  have  been  counted,  sir.  I 
know  in  the  last  general  asssembly  they  had  some  white  men  elected, 
'and  the  colored  men  came  and  contested  their  seats,  but  they  didn’t 
turn  the  white  men  out  but  paid  both,  and  I  think  the  colored  men  got 
the  better  of  it,  for  they  staid  there  and  done  nothing.  They  got  their 
pay  and  had  no  work  to  do. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  magistrates,  and  that  there  was  some  complaint 
about  the  change  concerning  them? — A.  I  cannot  explain  that,  but  that 
is  one  of  the  complaints  ;  the  biggest  we  have,  I  believe. 

Q.  Who  do  those  complaints  come  from  with  reference  to  the  magis¬ 
trates  ? — A.  I  think  the  colored  people. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any  complaints  as  to  the  way  they  were 
treated  in  the  courts? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  don’t  know  of  these  things,  but  I 
have  heard  of  it.  They  said  in  some  counties  they  wouldn’t  allow 
colored  men  in  the  jury  box.  Tliere  is  discrimination  made  there. 

•  Where  they  have  them,  out  of  every  jury  they  run  in  from  seven  white 
men  up  to  ten  white  men  and  two  colored  men.  I  don7t  think,  though, 
in  our  county  that  is  due  to  the  legislature,  but  I  think  it  is  due  to  our 
sheriff,  who  has  not  got  the  back  bone  to  stand  up. 

Q.  He  is  a  Republican? — A.  Yes,  sir 5  and  elected  by  Republicans. 

Q.  How  is  it  needed — that  back  bone  ? — A.  I  tell  you  he  is  a  good 
man,  but  the  bond  which  he  had  to  give,  the  Democrats  had  to  go  on  it, 
and  that  brought  him  under  subordination  to  them.  You  see  if  you 
have  got  me  haltered,  I  cannot  get  far  away  from  you  ;  and  he  cannot 
pick  out  the  jurors  as  freely  as  he  might  do. 

Q.  He  thinks  that  the  Democrats  don’t  want  a  majority  of  colored 
jurors  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  so  ;  him  and  the  Democrats,  too. 

Q.  Are  those  all  the  complaints  you  have  heard  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I 
think  that  is  all. 

Q.  Do  they  punish  whites  the  same  as  they  do  the  colored  people  ? — 


250 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  believe  they  do  when  they  get  them  into  the  court,  but 
sometimes  they  run  a  little  cloak  around  it;  if  a  white  man  does  some¬ 
thing,  aud  goes  off*  to  the  mayor’s  office  and  confesses,  he  can  pay  a  fine, 
and  it  is  not  as  much  as  sent  into  a  court.  If  a  colored  man  does  any¬ 
thing  he  is  sent  to  the  solicitor,  and  is  pretty  bound  to  go  to  the  peni¬ 
tentiary. 

Q.  State  the  general  feeling  of  the  colored  people,  and  why  it  is  they 
don’t  have  a  fair  show  in  the  courts. — A.  I  can  say  that  I  have  heard 
complaints  of  the  jurors  being  most  all  of  them  whites.  I  do  not  have 
much  to  do  with  the  courts.  I  stay  as  far  away  from  them  as  I  can. 
I  think  there  are  not  a  great  many  cases  where  the  colored  people  are 
treated  wrong.  They  are  brought  and  punished,  and  of  course  they 
don’t  like  it. 

Q.  I  believe  you  stated  that  a  white  man  would  get  more  for  the  same 
work  than  a  colored  man. — A.  Certainly;  there  is  not  a  man  hardly  in 
Wake  County  if  he  wanted  a  job  done  but  will  pay  a  white  man  some 
fifty  cents  more  in  the  day  than  a  colored  man. 

Q.  Is  it  because  the  latter  is  a  colored  man  t — A.  ]So,  sir;  but  it  is 
nature  ;  they  think  the  colored  man  can  live  on  this. 

Q.  Does  that  sort  of  discrimination  extend  to  other  kinds  of  labor  !  I 
mean  to  common  labor,  and  not  to  skilled  labor. — A.  I  cannot  say  it 
does ;  there  are  a  very  few  white  men  who  hire  out  as  laborers. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  people  getting  only  five  or  six  dollars  a  month  ;  is 
that  quite  common  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  in  a  great  many  places  they  don’t 
like  to  pay  more  if  they  can  get  them  for  that ;  but  that  is  for  common 
boy  hands  and  women  ;  eight  and  ten  dollars  is  the  average  for  men. 

Q.  What  are  the  rations  ? — A.  Generally,  a  few  pounds  of  meat  and  a 
peck  of  meal  and  a  pint  of  molasses. 

Q.  Is  that  as  much  as  the  laboring  man  has  to  live  on  for  a  week  % — 
A.  It  is  not  as  much  as  I  had  when  I  was  a  slave,  for  my  people  fed  me 
as  they  did  themselves. 

Q.  But  you  think  these  petty  crimes  of  larceny  are  committed  largely 
on  account  of  this  inadequate  provision  ? — A.  Certainly  1  do,  but  negro 
men  is  better  in  some  respects  in  that  kind  of  doing  than  a  white  man  ; 
if  he  goes  to  steal  he  don’t  try  to  steal  all  you  have  got  and  the  white 
man  does. 

Q.  When  they  steal  in  this  way  to  preveut  starvation  they  take  them 
and  send  them  to  the  penitentiary  ? — A.  Some  get  off  and  some  go  to 
the  penitentiary. 

Q.  What  is  their  treatment  ? — A.  They  are  all  hired  out,  except  they 
are  put  in  there  for  lifetime  or  for  murder. 

Q.  Is  there  any  considerable  amount  of  that  hiring  out  done  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  they  are  working  on  the  railroads.  All  the  railroading  work 
up  there  aud  on  into  the  mountains  is  being  done  by  them.  Some  of 
the  white  people  who  are  put  in  there  take  advantage  of  it  in  getting  a 
trade.  1  don’t  understand  all  the  workings  of  it,  for  I  try  to  keep  out 
of  the  penitentiary  myself. 

Q.  What  length  of  time  do  you  think  they  generally  send  people  for 
stealing  those  little  things  we  have  mentioned  ? — A.  Until  this  last  act, 
a  man  had  to  stay  two  years,  but  now  it  is  twelve  months. 

Q.  Is  that  your  understanding  of  the  condition  of  the  colored  race, 
that  in  many  cases  they  are  compelled  from  receiving  short  wages  to 
steal,  and  then  they  are  convicted  and  sent  to  the  penitentiary  and  hired 
out  ? — A.  I  say  you  can  take  it  anywhere  in  the  world,  where  a  man 
with  one  or  two  in  family  besides  himself  gets  only  five  or  six  dollars  a 
month,  he  can’t  live  on  it.  Until  this  great  blessing  came  along,  which 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


251 


I  appreciate  as  much  as  any  man,  it  was  different,  and  they  can’t  all 
keep  np  to  it,  although  I  thiuk  as  much  of  principle  and  character  as 
any  other  man  that  ever  lived,  I  don’t  care  where  he  came  from. 

By  Senator  Voorhees  : 

Q.  You  are  in  the  livery-stable  business  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  pay  your  employes  ? — A.  I  pay  my  omnibus  drivers 
seven  dollars  a  week,  and  the  one  who  drives  two  horses  five  dollars 
a  week  ;  and  pay  it  to  them  every  Saturday  morning. 

Q.  Are  they  all  colored  men  ? — A.  All  of  them  are  out  of  the  seven¬ 
teen,  except  two  white  men — one  for  each  omnibus. 

Q.  They  are  picked  men,  though,  are  they  not — men  who  understand 
their  business  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  of  course,  they  must  be. 

Q.  These  are  high  wages,  are  they  not  ? — A.  Not  for  livery  work. 

Q.  You  pay  more  than  anybody  else,  do  you  not? — A.  More  than 
most  of  people  ;  yes,  sir,  I  reckon  I  do,  because  my  work  is  done  at  all 
hours.  I  work  three  every  night,  and  my  partner  four,  and  any  time 
you  come  to  my  office  door,  you  can  get  a  carriage,  unless  you  beat  me 
once,  and  then  you  can’t  get  one. 

Q.  You  are  paying  higher  wages,  though,  than  are  paid  to  most  la¬ 
borers  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  take  a  man  who  hires  by  the  month,  and  who  boards  him¬ 
self;  how  much  ought  he  to  get? — A.  I  do  not  know  about  that. 

Q.  If  they  board  him,  how  much  do  they  pay  ? — A.  If  he  is  boarded, 
they  give  him  about  ten  dollars. 

Q.  Is  that  about  the  average  ? — A.  That  is  about  the  average  wages, 
where  they  board  them,  and  get  good  hands. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  of  any  representations  made  to  your  people  about 
the  wages  they  would  get  out  there  in  Indiana? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not 
know  anything  of  that  matter  in  the  world.  I  saw,  say  two  or  three 
train  loads  going  to  Georgia,  to  the  turpentine  works.  I  asked  them 
what  they  were  going  for,  and  they  said  they  could  get  better  wages. 

Q.  You  would  not  think  they  could  better  themselves  by  going  from 
Wake  County  to  Indiana,  where  the  colored  man  never  was  seen  in  a 
jury-box? — A.  No,  sir;  1  think  they  would  be  getting  worse.  I  think 
any  man  can  get  aloug  better  with  the  people  that  he  knows. 

Senator  Vance.  Who  is  solicitor,  who  prosecutes  in  your  county  ? — 
A.  This  Mr.  Collins,  a  colored  man  ;  but  he  is  assisted  in  Wake  County 
with  Mr.  Harris.  He  makes  the  bills,  and  Mr.  Harris  does  the  pleading. 
He  is  a  white  man  and  a  Republican. 

Senator  Windom.  From  what  you  know  of  the  emigration  from  your 
State,  are  not  as  many  going  to  Georgia  as  Indiana  ? — A.  I  do  not  know, 
sir.  I  think,  from  what  I  saw  on  the  trains  going  through  Charlotte, 
and  who  said  they  were  going  to  the  turpentine  country — I  think  there 
were  about  one  hundred  and  fifteen,  all  told. 

Senator  Vance.  You  do  not  understand  that  they  were  going  there 
to  stay  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  they  worked  there  last  year  and  were  going  back 
again. 


TESTIMONY  OF  W.  W.  ARRINGTON. 

W.  W.  Arrington  called,  sworn,  and  examined. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN ; 

Question.  Where  do  you  live  ? — Answer.  In  Nash  County,  North  Car¬ 
olina. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  movement  of  colored  people  from  your  county 


252 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


to  Indiana1? — A.  I  think  not,  in  my  neighborhood;  but  I  understand 
that  some  went  from  down  about  Bocky  Mount.  There  have  been  none 
left  from  our  neighborhood. 

Q.  Did  you  speak  to  any  who  went  ? — A.  No,  sir.  I  spoke  to  some 
who  thought  of  going  from  North  Nashville. 

Q.  Did  they  give  you  any  reason  for  wanting  to  go  ? — A.  They  said 
they  could  get  big  wages,  from  a  dollar  and  a  half  a  day  to  five  dollars 
a  day  ;  that  during  harvest-time  they  could  get  five  dollars  a  day. 

Q.  Did  they  say  who  told  them  that  ? — A.  A  man  named  Perry,  I  be¬ 
lieve. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Perry  yourself? — A.  No,  sir;  I  never  saw  him. 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  speeches  in  your  county  ? — A.  Not  that  I  know 
of.  But  I  was  at  Bocky  Mount  one  day  and  there  was  a  fellow  over  on 
the  other  side,  in  Edgecombe,  making  of  a  speech,  and  I  understood  it 
was  Perry. 

Q.  Gan  you  give  us  a  statement  of  the  condition  of  the  colored  people 
in  your  section? — A.  In  the  northern  part  of  the  county,  where  I  live, 
they  are  in  a  good  condition,  and  many  own  land.  It  is  rather  thickly 
settled,  and  mostly  with  colored  people.  Only  once  in  a  while  you  will 
come  across  a  white  man ;  but  the  colored  people  own  the  country 
through  there. 

Q.  How  much  do  they  own  ? — A.  There  are  four  or  five  thousand 
acres  right  in  my  own  couuty  owned  by  them. 

Q.  How  much  is  owned  by  them  in  Nash  County  ? — A.  I  reckon  twenty 
thousand  acres  ;  all  of  that. 

Q.  How  is  it  distributed?  How  much  was  to  a  man  ? — A.  I  think 
the  smallest  farm  I  know  is  seventy  acres,  and  from  that  up  to  a  thou¬ 
sand. 

Q.  Does  any  colored  man  there  own  a  thousand  acres  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
one. 

Q.  Who  is  it  ? — A.  That  is  myself. 

Q.  Were  you  formerly  a  slave? — A.  YYs,  sir.  I  belonged  to  A.  H. 
Arrington. 

Q.  Baldi  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  a  perfect  gentleman,  if  there  ever  was 
one. 

Q.  Have  you  made  your  property  since  the  war  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  he 
gave  me  a  chance  after  the  surrender.  I  took  charge  of  his  business. 
He  employed  me  to  run  it  for  him,  and  gave  me  six  hundred  dollars  a 
year ;  and  I  laid  it  out  in  land,  right  at  the  start,  and  kept  adding  to  it. 

Q.  Do  you  farm  yourself? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  the  wages  you  pay. — A.  Well,  sir,  I  pay  my  men  ac¬ 
cording  to  the  grade  of  them.  If  he  is  a  good  man,  who  can  repair 
gates,  make  hoe-handles  aud  axe-helves,  and  mend  up  wagons,  I  pay 
him  ten  dollars,  give  him  a  patch  for  his  wife,  and  a  house  to  live  in. 
Some  others  that  are  not  quite  so  good  I  pay  eight  dollars. 

Q.  What  do  you  pay  women? — A.  The  women  get  five  dollars  and 
board.  Them  we  don’t  give  any  allowance. 

Q.  The  men  you  give  just  as  much  as  they  want  to  eat  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  but  I  only  allowance  one.  I  buy  a  year  two  hundred  pounds  of 
meat,  and  put  it  there,  and  allowance  him  five  pounds  a  week  ;  and  at 
the  end  of  the  time  he  knows  when  it  ought  to  be  out. 

Q.  Is  that  the  general  rule  of  pay  down  there  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  a 
general  rule  around  there  with  the  farmers.  Good  men  get  ten  dollars 
very  easily. 

Q.  How  far  do  you  live  from  Edgecombe? — A.  Twelve  miles. 

Q.  Do  you  know  much  about  the  rule  down  there? — A.  No,  sir;  but 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  253 

it  is  about  the  same,  I  believe.  That  down  there,  where  they  take  out 
marl,  is  a  little  better. 

Q.  Do  you  state  that  ten  dollars  a  month,  with  rations,  is  the  average 
price  for  good  hands  ? — xY  Yes,  sir;  and  on  down  to  eight  dollars.  I 
don’t  think  any  man  gets  less  than  eight  dollars  in  our  neighborhood. 

Q.  Doesn’t  that  depend  on  the  price  of  cotton  ? — A.  We  have  a  stand¬ 
ing  price,  and  don’t  change  it.  I  think  where  they  give  more  they  don’t 
give  a  patch.  But  if  a  man  has  a  wife,  she  can  take  a  patch  and  make 
a  bale.  There  is  no  charges  made  there  for  the  houses  or  fire-wood. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anything  why,  by  reason  of  political  proscription 
or  legal  discrimination,  the  colored  man  can’t  do  as  well  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina  as  a  white  man,  both  of  them  being  without  land  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  • 
there  is  a  little  difference  in  the  hiring  of  them.  When  they  hire  a  white 
man  they  take  him  into  the  house  and  feed  him  a  little  better.  But  there 
is  no  difference  generally,  because  there  are  not  many  white  men  who 
hire  out.  I  know  one  named  Dick  Thorpe,  who  does  not  get  but  nine 
dollars  a  month. 

Q.  Is  there  any  interference  down  there  with  the  right  of  the  colored 
people  to  vote  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  been  a  poll-holder  for  a  long  time, 
in  my  township,  and  both  sides  vote  as  free  as  they  please,  and  we 
have  no  disturbance  and  no  unfair  means  used. 

Q.  Nash  is  a  Democratic  county,  by  a  very  small  majority,  is  it  not? 
— A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  we  beat  you  last  time,  Governor,  by  taking  your  own 
means,  and  running  an  independent  Democrat.  But  there  is  about 
three  hundred  majority  of  whites  in  the  county. 

Q.  Have  you  many  colored  men  in  your  section  who  are  skilled  me¬ 
chanics,  brick  masons,  bouse  carpenters,  blacksmiths,  and  so  on  ? — - 
A.  I  don’t  think  many  of  them  are  brick  masons.  There  may  be  at 
Nashville ;  but  there  are  carpenters  up  there.  But  I  don’t  know 
what  the  saw-mill  man  is  paying  them.  He  takes  a  contract  to  do  the 
buildiug,  and  pays  them  by  the  month. 

Q.  What  chances  have  you  to  teach  and  learn  your  children  ? — A. 
We  have  good  chances,  now.  I  am  one  of  the  school  trustees  in  my 
township.  And  we  have  a  treasurer,  and  the  money  is  paid  out  by  the 
township. 

Q.  How  long  do  your  schools  run  ? — A.  About  four  months. 

Q.  Is  there  a  good  attendance  of  the  children  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  be¬ 
lieve  ours  has  an  attendance  of  seventy* nine. 

Q.  That  is  your  township  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  the  one  I  am  tru  tee  for. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  How  far  is  your  plantation  from  Goldsboro’ ?— A.  It  is  forty  miles 
from  our  depot  to  Goldsboro’. 

Q.  There  is  no  exodus  from  your  county  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  have  heard 
of  none.  Those  fellows  who  were  getting  it  up  did’nt  beat  down  our 
way.  We  are  working  people  up  there,  and  don’t  listen  to  such  things. 

Q.  You  are  against  it  yourself? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  am.  I  was  up  there 
at  the  church,  and  one  fellow  was  up  there  who  had  a  lot  of  his  circu¬ 
lars,  but  when  I  came  along  towards  him  he  wheeled  about  and  left. 

Q.  How  many  hands  do  you  employ  ? — A.  I  employ  four  ;  but  I  have 
a  right  smart  people  settled  about  on  my  plantation. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  heard  no  complaint  by  these  people  about  their 
condition  in  North  Carolina? — A,  Yes,  sir;  they  have  complained 
about  this  tenant  lieu  law,  and  the  taking  away  the  election  of  magis¬ 
trates  and  their  appointment  by  the  legislature. 

Q.  There  are  cases  of  some  complaint  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  think  they 


254 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


don’t  get  justice  in  that  way;  and  it  is  taking  away  the  rights  of  the 
people.  And  the  legislature  has  been  appointing  men  for  magistrates 
who  could  not  be  elected  by  the  people. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  anything  of  injustice  done  them  in  the  courts! 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have.  They  say  that  if  a  man  commits  larceny,  if  he 
is  blooded  stock  it  is  covered  up;  but  a  poor  white  man,  or  colored 
man,  they  lay  him  out.  I  know  there  was  a  gentleman  there  from 
Halifax  who  stole  something,  and  all  the  lawyers  tried  to  say  that 
what  was  the  matter  with  him  was  a  disease,  and  tried  to  prove  it  by 
doctors.  They  tried  to  prove  that  it  was  what  they  called  a  kepto- 
rnauiac. 

Q.  You  mean  kleptomaniac? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  think  if  a  colored 
man  steals  he  is  not  a  kleptomaniac,  but  if  it  is  a  white  man  it  is  a 
kleptomaniac. 

Q.  Is  there  any  difference  in  the  treatment  of  the  colored  men  and 
white  men  in  your  courts  ? — A.  Sometimes  there  is  a  little  difference. 

Q.  Do  these  differences  become  the  subject  of  complaint  among  your 
people? — A.  Well,  sir,  there  has  been  no  people  in  my  section  that  has 
been  sent  to  jail  since  the  surrender.  It  is  generally  the  refugees  who 
come  in  there  from  other  counties. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Who  is  the  solicitor  in  your  district  ? — A.  Swift  Galloway. 

Q.  What  are  his  politics  ? — A.  He  is  a  Democrat. 

Q.  Who  was  before  him  ? — A.  Log.  Harris. 

Q.  Mr.  Cook  was  the  first  Democratic  solicitor  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  Harris 
was  solicitor  before. 

Q.  And  he  was  a  Republican  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  you  appointed 
Cook. 

Q.  And  he  is  a  pretty  fair  man,  isn’t  he  ? — A.  Yes,  sir,  but  this  judge 
who  said  this  about  the  kleptomaniac  was  a  Democratic  judge  ;  and  he 
did  not  believe  in  the  kleptomania,  and  he  put  him  in  jail. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  But  got  to  the  penitentiary  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  he  was  one  of  those  who 
got  out  of  jail.  There  were  a  heap  of  them  got  out — Republicans  aud 
Democrats  too. 


TESTIMONY  OF  HILLIARD  ELLIS. 

Hilliard  Ellis,  colored,  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Question.  Where  is  your  place  of  residence? — Answer.  In  four  miles 
of  Wilson  Township,  in  the  county  of  Wilson,  North  Carolina. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  movement  among  the  colored  people  with 
reference  to  this  exodus  movement  in  your  section? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
suppose  there  has  been  some. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  it? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  have  heard 
people  talking  about  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  inducement  was  held  out  to  them  to  leave 
North  Carolina? — A.  Some,  I  think,  were  goiug  for  better  wages,  and 
some  were  complaining  that  they  could  not  get  their  rights  under  the  law. 
I  cannot  really  tell  you  all  that  was  said,  for  I  just  heard  it.  I  think 
some  of  them  went  just  to  have  a  big  ride — some  for  one  thing  and 
some  for  another.  They  did  not  talk  much  to  me  about  it. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


255 


Q.  Why  ? — A.  Because  I  suppose  they  thought  it  was  no  use  talking  to 
me ;  I  wasn’t  going  nohow.  They  organized  a  club  there,  I  understand. 

Q.  Was  that  a  secret  society  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  so.  Nobody 
could  get  their  secrets  unless  he  joined  the  club. 

Q.  Was  there  any  agents  up  there  making  speeches  to  them  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir  ;  there  was  a  fellow  from  Goldsboro’  by  the  name  of  Evans  ;  I 
think  they  said  that  was  the  name.  He  was  encouraging  the  thing 
along,  as  I  heard  it. 

Q.  What  were  the  inducements  he  held  out  to  these  people? — A.  He 
said  they  could  get  from  one  to  two  and  three  and  four  dollars  a  day, 
according  to  the  season.  When  spring  opens,  I  think  they  were  to  get 
two  dollars  and  a  half  and  three  dollars. 

Q.  Was  that  in  Indiana  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Ho  you  know  what  inducement  was  offered  them  about  transpor¬ 
tation  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  heard  some  say  that  they  had  to  pay  so  much, 
and  then  they  gave  them  the  secret  of  how  to  get  along  out  to  Indiana. 
Some  of  them  thought  they  were  to  go  free. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation  ? — A.  I  am  a  farmer. 

Q.  Do  you  own  land  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  ? — A.  I  have  a  little  upwards  of  two  hundred  acres. 

Q.  Is  it  good  or  poor  land  ? — A.  It  is  tolerably  good  land. 

Q.  What  is  it  valued  at? — A.  I  can  hardly  tell  you,  but  my  taxes  are 
twelve  or  thirteen  dollars  a  year,  as  I  pay  no  poll  tax. 

Q.  You  can  tell  us  the  usual  price  of  labor  there  ? — A.  In  my  neigh¬ 
borhood  we  don’t  pay  as  much  as  they  do  down  below  on  the  big  farms. 
The  wages  are  eight  and  ten  dollars  down  there  ;  but  we  don’t  push  them 
up  our  way,  and  only  pay  them  seven  and  nine  dollars.  That  is  the 
price  right  in  my  neighborhood. 

Q.  What  does  that  include? — A.  It  gives  them  a  house  rent  free, 
fire-wood  free,  aud  a  patch  to  tend,  and  five  pounds  of  meat,  and  a  peck 
of  meal  a  week. 

Q.  You  pay  them  from  seven  to  nine  dollars,  according  to  the  grade 
of  the  hand?— A.  Yes,  sir;  but  there  are  some  I  would  rather  give 
nine  to  than  to  give  seven  to  others. 

Q.  You  give  them  five  pounds  ration,  a  peck  of  meal,  a  house,  a 
patch,  and  fire-wood  free? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  does  that  last  ? — A.  That  is  for  twelve  months.  I  gen¬ 
erally  hire  for  a  year  at  a  time. 

Q.  What  do  day-laborers  get  when  you  hire  them  ? — A.  Forty  cents 
a  day,  with  lodgings  aud  rations. 

Q.  Is  there  any  restriction  upon  the  legal  rights  of  the  colored  peo¬ 
ple  in  your  county?  Are  they  interfered  with  in  their  right  to  vote  ? — A. 
No,  sir;  not  at  my  township.  I  have  been  poll-holder  there  myself  for 
a  long  time. 

Q.  You  mean  you  have  been  a  judge  of  elections? — A.  Yes,  sir.  Some¬ 
times  we  have  little  differences  about  the  men’s  registering,  but  there  is 
no  violations  and  no  difficulties  there. 

Q.  Do  the  colored  people  vote  the  same  as  others  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  a 
black  man  votes  the  same  as  a  white  man. 

Q.  Is  it  the  same  way  all  over  the  county  ? — A.  I  heard  of  little  dis¬ 
turbances  around  in  places,  but  I  do  not  think  there  were  any  disturb¬ 
ances  in  town. 

Q.  Your  voting-place  is  not  in  Wilson — in  the  town,  I  mean  ? — A. 
No,  sir ;  I  live  four  miles  out,  and  vote  at  a  place  about  a  mile  from  my 
place. 

Q.  What  is  the  state  of  feeling  between  the  whites  aud  the  blacks 


256 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  . 


there  ? — A.  I  have  heard  of  no  difficulties  between  them.  I  know,  of 
course,  in  town,  when  they  are  drinking,  of  Saturday  evenings,  they 
are  liable  to  have  difficulties  and  fights.  But  there  is  nothing  political 
in  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  reason,  in  the  way  of  political  disturbances 
or  proscription  or  discrimination  of  the  laws,  to  make  these  people  leave 
your  country?— A.  No,  sir.  One  thing  I  heard  them  say,  that  they  were 
going  where  they  could  get  better  wages ;  that  they  could  not  live  on  the 
prices  it  cotton  was  low.  But  I  think  it  amounted  to  about  the  same, 
in  the  way  of  living,  as  when  they  got  thirteen  and  fourteen  cents  for 
cotton.  They  could  get  meat  for  five  cents,  which  was  cheaper  than 
they  ever  got  it  before.  The  price  of  cotton  is  better  than  it  was  last 
year,  and  and  the  price  of  labor  has  gone  up  with  it. 

Q.  About  how  much  real  estate  has  been  acquired  by  the  colored 
people  in  your  county? — A.  I  could  not  tell  you,  sir.  I  know  people 
right  in  my  neighborhood,  and  could  pick  out  scattered  men,  who  own  a 
good  deal. 

Q.  Can  a  colored  man  who  is  sober  and  industrious  stand  as  good  a 
chance  as  a  white  man  to  acquire  property,  when  both  of  them  start 
without  any  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  have  always  done  so  myself. 

Q.  Can  one  do  as  well  as  the  other? — A.  I  think  they  do.  If  any 
difference  has  been  made,  I  can’t  see  it.  I  alwTays  do  well  myself. 

Q.  These  men,  you  said,  were  going  to  Indiana  for  better  wages : 
have  you  heard  anything  from  them  since  they  have  been  out  there? — 
A.  I  have  heard  of  them,  but  not  myself.  Mr.  Farmer,  who  lives  near 
me,  received  a  letter  from  some  of  them,  which  they  said  to  send  to 
Hilliard  Ellis’s  church  to  be  read. 

Q.  Was  it  read? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  were  the  contents  of  it? — A.  He  wanted  them  to  make  up 
some  money  to  bring  him  back  home.  He  said  he  wanted  all  the  mem¬ 
bers  to  throw  in  a  little  to  help  him. 

Q.  What  reason  did  he  give  for  wanting  to  come  home  ?— A.  He  said 
he  had  been  there  eighteen  days  and  only  made  two  dollars.  He  said 
he  had  stopped  there  in  town  and  could  get  no  work,  and  he  wanted  his 
friends  to  help  him  back. 

Q.  Did  he  come  back? — A.  No,  sir;  not  yet,  unless  he  has  got  there 
since  I  left  home. 

Q.  Did  they  make  up  money  for  him? — A.  No,  sir;  I  think  they  said 
they  didn’t  know  whether  he  would  get  the  money  or  not;  and  they 
would  look  further  into  it.  They  asked  me  if  I  would  give  something, 
and  I  said  I  did  not  know. 

Q.  Could  a  man  who  is  getting  ten  dollars  a  month,  his  house  and 
rations,  and  a  patch  to  tend  to,  support  himself  and  family  on  that? — 
A.  He  ought  to  do  it  at  the  present  prices  of  provisions. 

Q.  In  the  cotton-picking  season,  don’t  the  women  and  children  make 
good  wages  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  is  the  time  of  their  best  wages.  A 
child  can  pick  out  as  much  as  a  man,  almost,  and  they  make  more  in 
cotton-picking  time,  than  any  other  time.  That  is  the  reason  that  a 
good  many  of  them  won’t  hire  only  until  fall.  They  work  until  the  crop 
is  laid  up,  and  then  depend  on  making  double  wages  during  the  picking 
season. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  complaint’s  as  to  injustice  being  done  them 
in  the  courts  ? — A.  I  have  heard  some  of  them  grumble  about  not  get¬ 
ting  justice  in  some  cases;  but  I  have  heard  both  sides  to  that.  One 
says  that  they  didn’t  do  right,  and  the  other  say  that  it  was  right,  and 
backwards  and  forwards  in  that  way. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


257 


Q.  Is  there  no  complaint  that  there  is  a  difference  made  in  the  courts 
between  whites  and  blacks  ?  —A.  I  have  heard  of  it.  I  have  heard  some 
of  them  say  they  didn’t  get  justice  because  they  were  black  men. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  of  any  case  that  was  so? — A.  No,  sir;  I  only 
heard  that  the  colored  people,  as  a  general  thing,  was  oftener  in  the 
courts  for  larceny  than  the  white  people. 

Q.  That  makes  a  difference  and  causes  more  of  them  to  be  in  the  peni¬ 
tentiary? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Because  more  of  them  commit  these  little  crimes  l — A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
think  they  think  they  are  not  dealt  justly  by,  and  then  sometimes  they 
slip  into  the  penitentiary  before  they  know  it,  not  being  enlightened  to 
know  the  law.  But,  I  think,  in  my  neighborhood,  they  try  and  take 
care  of  themselves. 

Q.  When  a  colored  man  has  an  established  character  for  integrity  and 
honesty,  don’t  he  stand  the  same  chance  of  getting  justice  as  the  white 
man  ? — A.  I  think  he  does  in  my  town  ;  I  dou’t  go  there  myself  about 
the  courts,  and  I  only  hear  about  it  after  the  courts  are  done. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  You  spoke  of  some  complaints  ;  are  they  general  among  the  colored 
people  ? — A.  I  have  heard  them  complain  a  good  deal  after  the  courts 
were  over  for  a  while.  I  have  heard  them  say  that  in  such  and  such  a 
case  that  was  tried  that  they  didn’t  think  that  they  got  justice  because 
it  was  a  colored  person. 

Q.  Did  they  think  it  was  injustice  to  them  because  of  their  color? — 
A.  Yes,  sir:  on  account  of  their  color.  But  then,  you  know,  in  many 
times  they  may  be  mistaken. 

Q.  There  is  an  impression  that  they  didn’t  get  even-handed  justice? 
— A.  That  is  the  talk  among  them;  but  I  don’t  get  to  see  aud  I  don’t 
know  that  any  wrong  is  done  them.  I  would  not  know,  probably,  if  I 
was  to  see  it. 

Q.  Dave  you  heard  anything  in  the  way  of  complaints  about  the 
tenants  law  ? — A.  Yes,  sir,  a  little;  but  not  enough  to  tell. 

Q.  Is  your  county  Republican  or  Democratic? — A.  It  is  Democratic, 
and  always  has  been.  They  have  got  a  majority  there. 

Q.  How  far  do  you  live  from  Goldsborough  ? — A.  It  is  about  twenty- 
four  miles  from  Wilson  to  Goldsborough. 

Q.  About  how  many  people  have  gone  from  your  county  ? — A.  I  do 
not  know,  sir  ;  really  I  could  not  tell.  But  there  are  a  good  many  gone 
right  out  of  that  town. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  heard  of  some  political  troubles  in  Wilson  County? 
— A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  not  serious.  They  were  just  little  differences  between 
individual  men. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  of  them  given  as  a  reason  for  this  emigration  ? 
— A.  No,  sir;  but  some  of  them  says  they  wanted  to  go  where  they  could 
get  better  wages. 

Q.  You  said  you  heard  of  no  disturbance  in  your  locality,  but  there 
were  some  in  Wilson? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  it  was  mostly  from  whisky. 
It  would  be  where  they  were  drinking,  and  they  would  have  a  drunken 
fight.  There  was  no  Democrats  or  no  Republicans  in  it. 


TESTIMONY  OF  ELLIS  DICKSON. 

Ellis  Dickson,  colored,  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  VANCE  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside? — Answer.  In  Green  Couuty. 
17  EX 


258 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  What  is  your  nearest  railroad  station  ? — A.  Kinston  is  the  nearest 
raiload  station. 

Q.  How  tar  do  you  live  from  there? — A.  I  live  fifteen  miles  from 
there.  I  live  on  Snow  Hill. 

Q.  Wh  at  is  your  occupation  ? — A.  I  am  a  mechanic. 

Q.  What  kind  of  mechanic?— A.  A  mill  wright. 

Q.  Are  you  a  farmer  too? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  farm  some,  too. 

Q.  Have  there  been  any  colored  people  left  your  county  in  this  exodus 
movement? — A.  Yes,  sir;  some  few. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  reasons  why  they  left;  what  they  said  about 
it? — A.  1  have  heard  them  say  they  were  going  because  they  heard 
they  could  get  better  wages;  and  they  thought,  probably,  they  could 
do  better  in  Indiana  than  they  were  doing  there. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  them  say  anything  about  the  fourteenth  or  fif¬ 
teenth  amendments  being  repealed  if  they  did  not  get  up  North  in  a  cer¬ 
tain  time? — A.  No,  sir;  I  never  heard  of  that. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  anybody  making  speeches  to  them  ? — A.  I  think 
there  wasone  man  came  down  there  and  made  a  speech  to  them.  1 
don’t  know  his  name,  but  he  went  in  the  court-house  and  made  a  little 
speech.  1  went  up  and  heard  it,  and  it  sounded  so  much  like  nothing 
to  me  that  I  turned  right  around  and  went  home. 

Q.  Don’t  you  remember  his  name? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  condition  of  the  colored  people  in  that  county  with 
regard  to  their  material  interests?  How  are  they  doing  and  prosper¬ 
ing  ? — a.  Some  in  our  county  are  getting  along  tolerably  well,  and  some, 
I  suppose,  are  doing  sorry. 

Q.  As  compared  with  the  white  folks,  who  have  to  work  the  same  as 
they,  are  they  doing  as  well? — A.  Just  about  the  same. 

Q.  Is  there  any  persecution  of  them  in  respect  to  their  political 
rights? — A.  No,  sir;  none  at  all.  I  have  been  to  the  ballot-box  often, 
and  seen  black  and  white  people  riding  together,  and  voting  different 
ways. 

Q.  Is  there  any  disturbance  among  them,  concerning  their  right  to 
vote  ? — A.  They  vote  the  same  as  white  men,  so  far  as  I  see. 

Q.  How  are  they  situated  as  to  their  schools? — A.  They  have  their 
free  schools  just  the  same  as  the  white  people.  The  white  people  have 
their  free  schools  to  themselves. 

Q.  What  are  the  average  wages  in  your  county  for  ordinary  farm 
laborers?— A.  Last  year  they  were  seven,  eight,  and  nine  dollars,  and 
on  up  to  ten  for  some  hands. 

Q.  Then,  from  seven  to  ten  would  be  the  wages? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  does  that  include? — A.  It  includes  his  house,  his  board,  fire¬ 
wood,  and  a  little  patch.  That  is  the  general  way  that  they  work  on 
wages. 

Q.  Do  any  of  them  crop? — A.  Yes,  sir;  a  great  many  tend  to  crops 
on  shares. 

Q.  How  much  do  they  pay  the  landlord  when  they  crop  on  shares? — 
A.  If  a  man  furnishes  all  his  own  material — his  horses,  plows,  and  sup¬ 
plies — he  pays  one-third  of  the  corn  and  one-fourth  of  the  cotton,  while 
some  of  them  rent  for  eight  hundred  or  a  thousand  pounds  to  the  horse. 

Q.  How  much  is  that? — A.  Well,  sir,  it  generally  rents  at  the  rate  of 
eight  hundred  pounds  for  thirty  acres.  If  he  crops  and  gets  the  mate¬ 
rial  and  supplies  from  the  landlord,  then  the  tenant  gets  one-third  of  the 
corn  and  one  fourth  of  the  cotton. 

Q.  That  is  just  about  reversing  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  the  landlord  furnishes  only  the  land,  and  the  tenant  his  own 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


259 


stock,  lie  pays  one-third  of  the  corn  and  one  fourth  of  the  cotton? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  but  sometimes  he  has  a  contract,  and  pays  a  third  of  the  cot¬ 
ton,  according  to  the  quality  of  the  land. 

Q.  And  if  the  landlord  furnishes  everything,  the  payment  is  reversed. 
— A.  Y"es,  sir;  that  is  the  general  way.  I  have  some  croppers  on  my 
place  who  pay  me  a  fourth  of  the  cotton  and  a  third  of  the  corn,  and 
that  is  the  general  rule  in  my  neighborhood. 

Q.  Well,  so  far  as  yourself  is  concerned,  your  business  is  that  of  a 
millwright? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  find  employment  at  your  business? — A.  I  find  something 
to  do  pretty  much  all  of  the  time. 

Q.  Do  you  work  for  wages  or  by  the  job? — A.  By  the  job,  but  some¬ 
times  for  wages. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  get  a  day  when  you  work  for  wages  ? — A.  Three 
and  a  half  a  day,  and  sometimes  four  dollars.  I  have  known  as  high  as 
five  dollars  to  be  paid  in  our  country. 

Q.  What  are  the  usual  wages  per  day  ? — A.  Two  and  a  half  and  three 
to  four  dollars. 

Q.  Is  there  any  difference  in  the  wages  between  white  men  and  black 
men  . — A.  None  in  the  millwright  business.  I  get  as  much  as  any  white 
man  who  goes  down  there. 

Q.  Have  you  found  any  discrimination,  where  men  would  not  hire 
you  because  you  were  a  colored  man? — A.  No,  sir;  I  never  had  any 
such  experience  as  that. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  these  people  would  have  been  satisfied  if  it 
had  not  been  for  these  statements  about  better  wages  made  tu  them? — 
A.  I  must  say,  they  would,  from  the  way  they  were  stirred  up  about  it. 
They  were  told  that  they  could  get  three  dollars  a  day  and  tweuty  dol¬ 
lars  a  month  ;  and  that  sounds  mighty  nice  to  get  that  much  money. 
They  were  told  that  land  was  cheaper,  and  they  would  get  homes  in  a 
short  time. 

Q.  When  you  take  a  job,  as  boss  millwright,  do  you  have  hands  under 
you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  have  had  as  high  as  eighteen  and  fifteen,  down  to 
ten. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  pay  them? — A.  I  have  none  who  work  for  less 
than  ten  and  twelve  dollars  a  month,  and  from  that  on  to  sixteen  and 
eighteen  dollars. 

Q.  These  are  not  skilled  laborers,  are  they? — A.  No,  sir;  they  are 
men  who  come  in  and  move  and  lift  things  around. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  employ  white  men  under  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir 

Q  Did  you  pay  them  the  same? — A.  Yes,  sir;  the  same  wages.  I 
have  paid  some  of  them  more,  and  have  paid  them  as  high  as  four  and 
a  half  a  day,  white  and  colored. 

Q  What  is  the  state  of  feeling  between  the  white  and  colore  I  men  in 
your  section? — A.  Why,  it  seems  to  be  friendly  down  there  in  my  neigh¬ 
borhood;  so  far  as  I  know,  it  is  so  in  my  county. 

Q.  Have  any  of  your  colored  people  down  there  bought  land? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  an  idea  how  much  they  own  in  your  county  ? — A.  I  have 
an  idea  about  those  who  are  close  around  me.  I  guess  there  are  some 
five  or  six  men  who  have  bought  right  close  around  me.  One  I  know 
bought  three  hundred  acres,  another  one  hundred  acres  not  more  than 
three  weeks  ago ;  and  there  are  two  or  three  who  own  land  a  little 
further  off. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Colonel  Jones,  up  seven  miles  above  Snow  Hill  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I  bought  my  place  from  him. 


260 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  How  is  it  with  the  colored  people  about  tlieir  schools'? — A.  We 
have  very  fine  schools  down  there,  considering. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  the  colored  people  down  there  are  doing  as 
well  as  white  people  with  the  same  start? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  What  is  good  land  worth — such  as  you  bought? — A.  From  nine 
to  ten  dollars  an  acre.  1  believe  that  is  what  they  pay  down  there. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  any  complaints  from  colored  people  about  dis¬ 
criminations  being  made  against  them  on  account  of  their  color? — A. 
No,  sir;  not  any  worth  noticing.  I  have  heard  something  about  the 
white  people  not  dealing  justly  by  them  ;  but  I  think  maybe  they  are 
mistaken. 

Q.  You  think  there  is  none,  then  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  the  juries  down  there? — A.  We  have  colored  jurors; 
we  used  to  have  half  colored,  but  we  don’t  now. 

Q.  What  is  the  proportion  of  white  and  colored  people  in  your  county? 
— A.  I  do  not  exactly  know. 

Q.  The  blacks  are  the  largest  in  number? — A.  YYs,  sir. 

Q.  Is  this  a  Democratic  or  Republican  county  ? — A.  It  is  Republican. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  majority  of  colored  people — the  Republican 
majority,  rather? — A.  I  am  acquainted  with  two  hundred,  I  believe. 

Q.  Then  you  elect  your  Republican  officers  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  But  then 
the  number  is  a  little  less  now  than  two  hundred,  I  think. 

Q.  How  far  is  it  from  you  to  Goldsborougk  ?—  A.  Twenty-five  miles 
from  my  place. 

Q.  Has  there  any  considerable  number  of  colored  people  left  your 
county  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  considerable  dissatisfaction  among  them  down  there  ? 
— A.  No,  sir. 


By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  I  did  not  ask  you  your  politics. — A.  I  am  a  Republican. 


TESTIMONY  OF  NAPOLEON  HIGGINS. 

Napoleon  Higgins,  colored,  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside? — Answer.  Near  Goldsborough.  I 
don’t  stay  iu  Goldsborough,  but  it  is  my  county  seat.  I  live  fifteen 
miles  from  town 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation? — A.  I  am  farming. 

Q.  Do  you  farm  your  own  land  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  own  ? — A.  Four  hundred  and  eighty-five  acres. 

Q.  How  did  you  get  it? — A.  I  worked  for  it. 

Q.  Were  you  formerly  a  slave  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  was  a  free  mau  before 
the  war. 

Q.  You  say  yrou  worked  for  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  1  worked  for  it,  and  got 
it  since  the  war. 

Q.  \\  hat  is  it  worth  per  acre  ? — A.  1  don’t  know,  sir,  what  it  is  worth 
now.  I  know  what  I  paid  for  it. 

Q.  What  did  you  pay  for  it?— A.  I  believe  I  paid  $5,500;  and  then 
I  have  got  a  little  town  lot  there  that  1  don’t  count  ;  but  I  think  it  is 
worth  about  $500. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


261 


Q.  Then  you  have  made  that  all  since  the  war? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  cotton  do  you  raised — A.  I  don’t  raise  as  much  as  I 
ought  to.  I  only  raised  fifty-eight  bales  last  year. 

Q.  What  is  that  worth  ? — A.  I  think  I  got  $55  a  bale. 

Q.  How  many  hands  do  you  work  yourself? — A.  I  generally  rent  my 
land.  I  only  worked  four  last  year,  and  paid  the  best  hand,  who  fed 
the  mules  and  tended  around  the  house,  ten  dollars;  and  the  others  I 
paid  ten,  and  eight,  and  seven. 

Q.  That  was  last  year? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  give  them  besides  their  pay? — A.  I  gave  them 
rations  ;  and  to  a  man  with  a  family  I  gave  a  garden  patch  and  a  house, 
and  a  place  to  raise  potatoes. 

Q.  What  about  the  rate  of  wages  in  your  section  of  the  country  ;  does 
that  represent  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  of  course  a  no-account  hand  don’t 
get  much,  and  a  smart  oue  gets  good  wages. 

Q.  Have  you  made  auy  contracts  for  this  year? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  I 
am  only  hiring  two  hands  this  3Tear. 

Q.  What  do  your  tenants  pay  you  for  the  use  of  your  laud? — A. 
Some  of  the  tenants  give  me  a  third  of  the  corn  and  a  third  of  the  cot¬ 
ton.  Then  I  have  got  some  more  land  that  I  rent  out  to  white  men, 
and  they  give  me  a  fourth  of  the  cotton,  and  another  gives  me  a  thou¬ 
sand  pounds  of  lint  cotton  for  twenty  acres. 

Q.  Hoes  anybody  interfere  with  your  right  to  vote  down  there  ? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  with  any  of  the  rights  of  your  race? — A.  No,  sir;  we  vote  freely 
down  there.  Of  course,  if  one  man  can  persuade  you  to  vote  with  him, 
that  is  all  right.  But  you  can  vote  as  you  please. 

Q.  What  are  your  politics  ? — a.  I  am  a  Republican,  and  that  is  the 
way  my  township  generally  votes. 

Q.  You  say  there  is  no  interference  with  the  rights  of  your  race 
there  ? — A.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

A.  There  has  been  something  said  here  about  the  landlord  and  tenant 
act.  Do  you  think  that  does  anybody  auy  harm? — A.  I  think  it  is  a  good 
law. 

Q.  The  object  of  it  is  to  give  you  a  lien  on  everything  your  tenant  has 
until  your  rent  is  paid? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  I  think  I  am  entitled  to  that. 

Q.  These  white  tenants  cau’t  run  off  any  of  your  cotton  until  you  are 
paid? — A.  No,  sir;  I  am  live  or  six  miles  from  them,  and  they  can’t 
run  it  off.  They  might  do  it  and  I  not  see  them  if  1  did  not  have  the 
law  to  back  me ;  and  they  are  just  as  apt  to  run  it  all  off  as  not  when 
they  start. 

Q.  Then  you  think  it  is  a  good  protection  to  you  in  your  rights? — A. 
Yes,  sir  ;  I  do. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  schools  down  there? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  is  the  money  raised  for  them  ?  Most  of  it  is  by  a  property- 
tax,  is  it  not? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  poll-tax  all  goes  to  education  except  twenty-five  cents  on 
the  dollar? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  yon  know  how  much  laud  your  race  has  acquired  in  that 
county? — A.  I  reckon  they  have  got  fifteen  hundred  acres  in  our  town¬ 
ship;  but  I  could  not  tell  how  much  in  the  county. 

Q.  Is  there  any  distinction  made  between  the  whites  and  the  blacks 
down  there  in  the  renting  of  lands? — A.  None  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Both  are  paid  the  same  wages  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  unless  a  man  wants 
to  hire  some  man  to  lock  his  doors  and  look  after  and  keep  his  keys; 


262 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


then  they  pay  him  more.  And  if  it  is  a  colored  man  that  he  has  confi¬ 
dence  in,  they  pay  him  the  same. 

Q.  Is  there  any  disposition  there  to  take  all  white  men  as  tenants'? — 
A.  No,  sir;  in  our  township  they  take  them  without  regard  to  color.  If 
a  man  is  a  smart  man,  he  gets  in  just  the  same  as  a  white  man.  Col¬ 
ored  men  rent  from  white  men,  and  white  men  from  colored  men. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  any  talk  with  any  of  those  people  who  went  to 
Indiana? — A.  No,  sir;  I  never  saw  one  who  went. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  of  the  speeches  of  any  of  these  men  who  were 
stirring  up  these  men  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  their  circulars? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  hear  of  any  inducements  offered  to  them  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  get  any  letters  from  any  of  them  who  went  out  there? — 
A.  No,  sir  ;  I  wasn’t  acquainted  with  any  who  went.  I  learned  more  of 
it  at  Goldsborougb,  last  Monday  night,  when  I  was  coming  on  here, 
than  I  ever  knew  before. 

Q.  Are  there  any  complaints  among  your  people  as  to  discriminations 
in  the  courts,  between  the  whites  and  blacks? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have 
heard  them  say  that  the  same  evidence  that  will  convict  a  colored  man 
for  stealing  won’t  convict  a  white  man. 

Q.  When  they  are  convicted,  are  they  punished  alike? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
in  the  same  cases.  I  have  spoke  to  them  and  told  them,  lots  of  times, 
that  of  course  they  would  be  convicted  many  times  where  a  white  man 
would  get  out,  and  the  only  way  to  avoid  that  was  to  quit  stealing.  I 
told  them,  a  white  man  has  got  more  sense  and  more  money  to  pay  lawT- 
yers  and  knows  better  how  to  hide  his  rascality,  and  the  best  way  for 
the  colored  man  to  keep  out  of  the  penitentiary  was  to  quit  stealing. 


By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  Is  it  the  general  impression  among  colored  people  down  there 
that  they  don’t  get  justice ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  when  two  or  three  colored 
men  get  convicted  they  think  so.  But  there  are  more  black  men  con¬ 
victed  because  there  are  more  of  them  tried. 

Q.  You  say  they  have  not  got  sense  enough  to  get  out  of  it  when 
they  get  in;  they  have  attorneys,  do  they  not? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  very 
often  they  have  not  got  the  money  to  feed  up  an  attorney ;  and,  you 
know,  the  more  you  pay  a  lawyer  the  more  he  sticks  with  you. 

Q.  Is  there  not  discrimination  therein  the  employment  of  mechanics  ? 
— A.  No,  sir;  I  never  heard  of  it. 

By  Senator  Vooriiees: 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  of  these  people,  white  and  black,  who  have 
been  convicted  that  you  thought  were  convicted  wrongfully? — A.  No, 
sir. 


Q.  You  thought  they  were  rightfully  convicted  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  been  on  juries  yourself ;  did  you  ever  make  any  differ¬ 
ence  between  them  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  sat  on  juries  there  many  times, 
and  sat  on  a  case  of  a  white  man  who  was  tried  for  his  life. 

Q.  Was  there  any  other  colored  men  on  that  jury  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  was 
the  only  one  on  that  one ;  but  1  have  been  on  others. 

Q.  You  have  sat  on  juiies  when  white  men’s  cases  were  being  tried, 
both  on  the  criminal  and  on  the  civil  sides  of  the  court? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  any  white  man  object  to  you  sitting  there? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  most  of  this  talk  about  discrimination  and  injustice  is  by 
men  who  have  been  disappointed  in  the  results  of  their  suits  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 


Q.  You  see  no  cause  for  it  yourself?— A.  No,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


263 


Q.  You  have  be  ird  white  men  who  complained  just  as  bitterly  ?— A. 
Yes,  sir ;  of  course.  I  suppose  they  are  like  I  am.  I  always  try  to  beat 
the  case. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  You  say  ,>ou  think  this  laud  and  tenant  act  a  good  thing;  do  you 
think  the  renter  is  in  favor  of  it? — A.  I  don’t  know;  they  never  say 
anything  to  me  about  it.  I  am  on  the  other  side  of  that  question. 

Q.  Does  not  the  fact  that  you  own  285  acres  of  land  give  you  a  little 
better  standing  in  the  community  than  most  of  your  colored  friends  ? — 
A.  Of  course;  I  suppose  it  does. 

Q.  How  did  you  start  it? — A.  I  rented  a  farm  and  started  on  two 
government  horses.  I  went  to  the  tightest  man  I  knew  and  got  him  to 
help  me.  I  rented  from  Mr.  Exam  out  there. 

Q.  Are  there  any  others  there  who  have  succeeded  as  well  as  you? — 
A.  Yes,  sir,  there  are.  One  or  two  more  who  have  succeeded  better 
than  me.  There  are  several  of  them  in  good  circumstances  there  in 
our  township.  I  think,  altogether,  they  own  1,500  acres  there. 

Q.  How  many  colored  people  own  this? — A.  1  reckon  150. 

Q.  The  1,500  acres  is  divided  up  among  150  people  ? — A.  No,  sir;  a 
good  many  of  them  have  got  none. 

Q.  This  is  what  I  asked  you  :  How  many  own  this  1,500  acres,  all  put 
together? — A.  I  reckon  a  dozen.  It  might  not  be  more  than  eight. .  It 
is  from  eight  to  a  dozen,  anyhow.  But  there  are  a  number  who  own 
some  little  lots  of  four  or  live  acres  that  I  have  not  mentioned. 


TESTIMONY  OF  J.  O.  DANE. 


J.  C.  Dane  sworn  and  examined. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  live,  Mr.  Dane? — Answer.  Richmond  is  my 
headquarters. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation  ? — A.  I  am  traveling  agent  of  the  Chesa¬ 
peake  and  Ohio  Railroad. 

Q.  What  have  yon  been  doing,  with  reference  to  the  transportation 
of  emigrants  ? — A.  Nothing,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  try  to  do  ? — A.  After  I  found  out  what  they  were 
doing,  and  that  they  were  under  the  control  of  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio 
Railroad,  I  knew  we  had  a  shorter  route,  and  I  tried  to  get  at  the  negroes 
w'io  were  controlling  t’  at. 

Q.  Who  did  you  go  to? — A.  To  Tailor,  Evans,  and  this  man,  Scott. 

Q  Where  did  you  see  them  ? — A.  In  Goldsborough. 

Q.  When? — A.  The  first  time  I  saw  them  was  the  first  week  in  De¬ 
cember.  I  went  down  there  and  saw  how  they  were  going,  and  in  what 


way. 

Q.  Were  you  sent  by  the  company  ?— A.  I  had  no  instructions  from 
any  officer.  I  have  my  general  instructions  to  look  after  business. 

Q.  Arou  are  a  passenger  agent? — Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  nou  went  to  see  if  you  could  get  your  share  of  these  emi¬ 
grants? — A.  Yres,  sir;  I  wanted  to  see  how  they  were  going.  I  did  not 
know  they  were  going  by  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad,  at  first. 

Q.  What  did  they  tell  you? — A.  I  heard  that  they  were  coming  by  Wash 
ingtou  ;  and  I  heard  from  some  of  them  that  they  said  they  could  only 


264 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


pay  to  Washington  or  Weldon  ;  and  I  said  that  I  didn’t  want  any  busi¬ 
ness  of  that  kind.  They  were  just  trusting,  after  they  got  here,  to  the 
government  or  to  the  aid  society. 

Q.  They  were  starting  in  the  dark,  then,  and  trusting  to  these  agen¬ 
cies  to  get  them  on  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was  there  on  the  2d  of  December, 
and  1  think  they  left  the  next  day.  I  staid  over  that  day  and  came  up 
to  Richmond  on  the  same  train. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Dukelieart  there  ? — A.  Ares,  sir;  he  was  there,  and  he 
went  in  charge  of  them. 

Q.  He  bid  lower  for  them  than  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  suppose  so. 

Q.  Wasn’t  it  their  idea  that  this,  being  Washington  City,  and  the  seat 
of  the  government,  that  they  would  get  on  from  here  by  its  aid? — A. 
Yres,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  had  no  Washington  City  on  your  route? — A.  No,  sir  ;  if 
they  had  gone  on  my  route  they  would  have  been  thrown,  probably,  on 
the  hands  of  our  citizens  at  Richmond  or  some  other  point. 

Q.  But  you  nave  not  taken  any  of  them  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  All  of  them  came  through  Washington  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  about  all  the  connection  you  had  with  these  men  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir.  In  January  1  went  down  and  saw  Evans,  and  told  him  I  had 
come  to  make  a  proposition  to  him.  The  first  time,  they  were  then  en¬ 
gaged  to  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio,  and  he  asked  time  to  see  about  that. 
Scott  said  he  would  listen  to  the  proposition,  as  he  was  clear  of  the 
Baltimore  and  Ohio  road.  But  I  have  not  heard  from  him  since  the 
20th  of  January. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  The  reason  you  could  do  nothing  with  them  was  because  they  had 
a  contract  with  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  offer  these  agents  a  dollar  a  head  ? — A.  Yres,  sir  ;  I  would 
have  done  better  than  that  for  them,  because  we  have  a  shorter  line,  and 
they  were  working  the  territory  that  we  think  is  legitimately  ours. 

On  motion,  the  committee  adjourned  to  Saturday,  February  7,  at  11 
a.  m. 


ELEVENTH  DAY. 

Washington,  Saturday ,  February  7,  1880. 

The  committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment. 

Present:  The  Chairman  (Senator  Voorhees),  Senators  Vance  and 
Windom. 

The  taking  of  testimony  was  resumed  as  follows: 

TESTIMONY  OF  LEONARD  G.  A.  HACKNEY. 

Leonard  G.  A.  Hackney  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside? — Answer.  Shelbyville,  Shelby  Coun¬ 
ty,  Indiana. 

Q.  What  is  your  profession  ? — A.  Iain  practicing  law. 

Q.  What  position,  if  any,  do  you  hold  ? — A.  I  am  prosecuting  attor¬ 
ney  of  the  sixteenth  judicial  circuit. 

Q.  You  may  state  whether  there  have  been  any  colored  emigrants 
from  North  Carolina  in  your  county,  or  any  attempt  to  put  them  there? 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


265 


— A.  Yes,  sir;  on  the  12th  of  December  a  number  of  them  arrived 
there. 

Q.  Well,  sir,  what  became  of  them"? — A.  They  arrived  there  in  the 
morning  at  about  10  o’clock,  on  the  western-bound  train.  They  got  off 
the  train  right  on  at  the  depot  platform.  It  was  a  very  cold  morning, 
and  a  man  by  the  name  of  Morgan,  a  colored  man,  there  took  charge  of 
them,  and  took  them  to  his  place  of  business,  a  sort  of  barber’s  shop  and 
tenement-house  combined.  The  mayor  of  the  city  called  the  common 
council  together  that  evening,  and  made  a  statement  to  them  in  writing, 
that  these  people  were  there  in  destitute  circumstances,  and  unless  aid 
was  given  them  at  once  they  would  suffer  and  perhaps  die  from  expos¬ 
ure  and  starvation.  I  believe  a  committee  of  the  council  was  appointed 
to  provide  lor  them  temporarily  through  charity,  and  to  feed  them,  and 
finally  to  secure  homes  for  them  if  they  could.  I  know  they  remained 
there  at  Morgan’s  for  several  days,  but  what  final  provision  was  made 
for  them  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  How  many  were  there  in  the  crowd? — A.  I  did  not  count  them, 
but  I  was  told  there  were  twenty-six.  1  believe  the  mayor  so  reported 
to  the  council. 

Q.  Were  they  men  and  women,  both  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  children. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  them  were  men  ? — A.  I  am  not  advised  as  to 
the  proportion.  1  think  some  six  or  seven  were  men. 

Q.  You  say  they  landed  thereon  the  12th  of  December? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  On  a  bitter  cold  day  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Without  any  provision  having  been  made  for  them? — Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  utter  destitution? — A.  Yes,  sir;  the  mayor  reported  so. 

Q,  Andy  he  mayor  made  an  official  proclamation  that  they  were  in 
need  of  charity  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  became  of  them? — A.  I  do  not  know  what  became  of  all  of 
them.  1  have  seen  a  number  of  them  about  the  streets  of  Shelby ville, 
but  I  do  not  know  their  employment. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  they  are  living  ? — A.  1  know  they  are  in  and 
about  Shelby  ville. 

Q.  Is  that  the  only  lot  that  came  to  your  place  ? — A.  That  is  the  only 
lot  to  my  knowledge.  I  was  at  the  depot  at  that  time,  but  I  have  been 
told  there  were  two  or  three  other  squads  that  came  in.  One  that  came 
to  Greesburgh  came  through  in  wagons.  Others  came  over  the  I.,  C. 
&  L.  road  to  Greensburgh  and  Saint  Paul,  and  they  would  be  driven  in 
or  walk  in  to  Shelby  ville.  That  f  have  heard,  but  I  do  not  know  it. 

Q.  Shelby  County  is  a  Democratic  county  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  the  district  it  is  in  are  Marion  and  Hancock  Counties,  and 
that  makes  it  a  close  district  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  the  difference  it  is  thought 
is  not  more  than  200,  but  I  do  not  think  it  is  any. 

Q.  Are  the  Republicans  of  the  same  mind  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  district  is  composed  of  Shelby,  Marion,  and  Hancock  Coun¬ 
ties  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  negroes  going  into  Hancock  County  ? — A. 
I  do  not  remember  to  have  heard'  anything  of  it  from  Hancock  County. 

Q.  Have  they  not  gone  to  Indianapolis? — A.  O,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  you  are  prosecuting  attorney  ;  have  you  in  any  way  in 
that  capacity  come  into  contact  with  any  of  these  emigrants  from  North 
Carolina? — A.  Yes,  sir.  Shortly  after  their  arrival  at  Shelbyville  there 
was  a  meeting  of  citizens,  and  some  resolutions  were  passed  concerning 
the  exodus,  and  one  of  the  resolutions  was  to  the  effect  that  the  officers 
executing  the  law  should  take  all  proper  and  necessary  steps  to  ascer- 


266 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


tain  who  was  engaged  in  this  business  of  importing  paupers  into  the 
county,  so  that  they  might  be  prosecuted. 

Q.  What  is  the  law  upon  that  point  $  I  believe  there  is  a  penalty  of 
$500  for  bringing  a  pauper  into  the  State? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  think  it  is  a  law  of  1852,  probably;  that  is  my  recollection. — A. 
I  know  it  is  a  law  of  several  years’  standing. 

Q.  That  is  making  it  a  penal  otfense  to  bring  any  pauper  into  the 
State? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  instructions  from  the  bench  upon  that  point® — A, 
No,  sir,  I  received  none  except  what  was  in  the  resolution  where  the 
officers  were  advised  to  take  all  neeessary  and  proper  steps  in  the  mat¬ 
ter.  At  that  time  the  grand  jury  was  in  session,  and  they  caused  sub¬ 
poenas  to  be  issued,  and  one  or  two  of  these  North  Carolina  emigrants 
were  brought  before  them.  One  of  them,  I  do  not  remember  which, 
but  one  was  named  James  Harper. 

Q.  What  was  his  statement  like? — A.  1  heard  it  only,  and  it  was  to 
the  effect  that  Sam  Perry  and  one  Williams  visited  North  Carolina 
and  made  speeches  and  offered  inducements  to  persons  to  emigrate  to 
Indiana,  telling  them  of  their  destitution  in  the  South,  and  the  advan¬ 
tages  of  the  North  over  the  South,  ot  the  liberty  they  would  enjoy  there, 
and  the  high  wages  they  could  receive  for  their  labor,  and  that  their 
transportation  would  cost  them  nothing  if  they  would  go.  He  said 
there  was  an  arrangement  by  which  their  transportation  would  be  paid 
to  Washington,  and  in  Washington  there  was  a  society  to  receive  them 
and  pay  their  expenses  to  Indiana.  He  said  that  from  the  time  they 
left  North  Carolina  until  they  reached  Indiana  they  did  not  know  where 
they  were  to  be  located.  He  said  that  several  car-loads  started,  and 
none  of  them  stopped  until  they  reached  the  Indiana  line.  Tasked  him 
if  he  knew  of  any  persons  in  the  train  at  the  time  who  were  not  Repub¬ 
licans.  He  said  that  he  believed  without  exception  they  voted  the  Re¬ 
publican  ticket.  He  said  there  was  a  sort  of  understanding  that  they 
were  to  be  received  there  by  somebody,  but  he  did  not  know  who  it  was. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  about  finding  these  representations  true  or  false  ? 
— A.  They  had  been  there  so  short  a  time  that  I  knew  he  did  not  know 
as  to  that,  so  I  did  not  ask  him. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  about  the  scope  of  this  emigration  scheme  ?  How 
many  were  going  to  be  put  into  the  State? — A.  1  do  not  think  lie  stated. 
Knowing  that  the  political  aspect  of  the  movement  was  insisted  on,  I 
asked  him — I  do  not  know  whether  I  or  the  foreman  of  the  grand  jury 
asked  the  question,  but  he  said  all  the  women  who  came  there  had  hus¬ 
bands  and  would  be  on  after  a  while.  I  asked  another  colored  man  the 
question  you  put  to  me. 

Q.  Who  was  that? — A.  A  man  who  represented  himself  as  Flowers. 
He  represented  that  lie  was  sent  there  from  this  place  by  some  society. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  ? — A.  He  was  telling  the  auditor  of  our  county, 
Mr.  Carson,  in  the  presence  of  Mr.  Henry  Ray,  Mr.  Wilson,  and  myself, 
and  lie  said  that  some  fifteen  thousand  would  be  brought  into  the  State. 

Q.  Did  he  say  at  what  time? — A.  He  said  on  or  about  the  1st  of  Feb¬ 
ruary  ;  that  is  my  recollection.  He  claimed  that  he  had  been  sent  out 
there  to  investigate  the  character  and  surrounding  of  a  large  and  pretty 
vigorous  mob  at  Shelby ville. 

Q.  Was  there  any  mob  there ? — A.  It  is  alleged  by  some  that  there 
was,  but  1  do  not  think  so. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  it  ? — A.  I  wish  to  say  that  I  was  not 
present.  I  make  this  statement  because  it  has  been  reported  that  I  was 
present.  Although  1  do  not  insist  very  vigorously  on  the  denial,  as  I 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


267 


am  a  Democrat  and  opposed  to  the  exodus,  yet  I  make  it  to  set  myself 
right.  On  the  night  this  mob  was  reported  to  have  visited  the  station 
I  was  going  home,  and  saw  half  a  dozen  people  standing  near  the 
stairs  leading  to  Mr.  Blair’s  law  office.  I  halted  near  them,  and  they 
told  me — some  one  did — to  go  upstairs.  I  went  upstairs  and  found 
several  gentlemen  assembled  there,  and  among  them  several  gentlemen 
appointed  on  a  committee  to  visit  the  trains  and  see  the  character  and 
extent  of  the  exodus  coming  into  Indiana.  Somebody  said  that  a  tele¬ 
gram  had  been  received  from  Cincinnati,  stating  that  a  train  load  of 
emigrants  were  coming  on  to  Shelby  ville.  Judge  Ord  and  Mr.  Glessner 
and  I  met  them  there,  and  we  went  home  together.  I  can  only  tell  from 
the  statements  of  these  persons  who  were  present  as  to  what  was  done, 
and  their  statements  differ  very  much  from  the  statements  made  in  the 
newspapers,  both  as  to  the  persons  present  and  the  character  of  the 
transactions. 

Q.  That  was  the  kind  of  mob  that  was  spoken  of? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  was  no  question  of  opposition  on  the  part  of  your  folks  to 
these  people  coming  there  because  they  were  colored  people  only  ? — A. 
No,  sir;  but  I  think  there  is  a  decided  opposition  to  it  by  the  Demo¬ 
crats  and  by  the  more  respectable  portion  of  the  population  in  our  town, 
without  regard  to  the  color  of  the  people. 

Q.  Is  it  opposed  by  the  workingmen  ? — A.  I  think  by  a  large  portion 
of  them,  but  I  do  not  know  that  I  can  approximate  the  number. 

Q.  It  is  winked  at  and  connived  at  by  your  town  politicians  of  the 
Republican  party? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  attitude  of  the  Republican  newspaper  in  your  town  ? 
— A.  It  hajs  taken  occasion  to  assail  anything  that  the  Democrats  or  the 
Democratic  papers  say  about  it.  I  do  not  remember  to  have  seen  any 
other  encouragement  it  has  given  to  it. 

Q.  They  give  it  no  other  encouragement  than  to  oppose  the  Demo¬ 
crats  for  opposing  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  that  paper? — A.  It  is  called  the  Republican. 
It  is  a  daily  and  weekly  paper,  edited  by  Simeon  J.  Thomas,  Mr.  Win¬ 
gate,  and  Mr.  Bone. 

Q.  Who  is  Mr.  Bone? — A.  Alfred  P.  Bone  is  postmaster. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  any  Republican  newspaper  that  is  opposed  to  this 
emigration  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  all  hostile  to  this  investigation  ? — A.  As  far  as  1  have 
seen  they  are  inclined  to  ridicule  it ;  but  this  man  Flowers  said  there  was 
an  organization  here,  an  emigration  society,  that  was  furnishing  trans¬ 
portation  to  these  people,  and  that  there  was  a  subordinate  society  in 
Indianapolis. 

Q.  Did  he  mention  anybody  there  who  was  active  in  the  matter  ? — A. 
No,  sir  ;  I  did  not  ask  about  that. 

Q.  Will  you  state  what  that  book  is  (handing  a  book  to  the  witness)  ? 
— A.  It  is  the  acts  of  the  regular  and  special  session  of  the  legislature 
of  1875  of  our  State. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  read  there  on  page  10G  of  the  acts  of  the  Indi¬ 
ana  legislature  on  the  subject  of  landlords  and  tenants. — A.  (Reading.) 

“  Section  1.  Be  it  enacted  by  the  general  assembly  of  the  State  of  Indiana, 
That  section  seventeen  of  theabove  recited  act  be,  and  the  same  is  hereby, 
amended  to  read  as  follows:  Section  17.  In  all  cases  where  the  tenant 
agrees  to  pay,  as  rent,  a  part  of  the  crop  raised  on  the  leased  premises,, 
or  a  cash  lent,  the  landlord  shall  have  a  lien  on  the  crop  raised,  under 
such  contract,  for  the  payment  of  such  rent:  Provided ,  That  nothing 
herein  contained  shall  prohibit  the  tenant  from  removing  from  such 


268 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


leased  premises  and  disposing  of  so  much  of  said  growing  crop,  not  more 
than  his  part,  when  the  rent  is  to  be  paid  in  part  of  the  crop  raised,  and 
in  other  cases,  not  more  than  one-half  of  the  crop  growing  or  matured. 
Approved  March  11,  1875.” 

Q.  That  seems  to  be  a  lien  on  the  whole  crop  with  the  privilege  to  the 
tenant  of  the  removing  of  such  portion  as  is  his  to  the  extent  of  not 
more  than  one-half? — A.  Yes,  sir.  Where  the  rent  is  to  be  paid  out  of 
the  crop,  he  is  prevented  from  removing  more  than  one-half  of  his  own 
portion,  and  where  it  is  a  cash  reut  he  can  remove  more  than  a  half  to 
create  a  lien  on  the  whole,  if  it  is  at  cash  prices. 

Q.  It  is  claimed  here  that  the  penal  laws  of  North  Carolina  are  very 
severe  upon  the  crime  of  petit  larceny.  As  you  are  prosecuting  attor¬ 
ney,  state  what  are  the  laws  in  your  State  on  that  subject,  and  for  what 
time  a  man  can  be  sent  to  the  penitentiary  for  it. — A.  The  general  stat¬ 
ute  defining  petit  larceny  and  prescribing  a  penalty  provides  that  the 
larceny  of  any  sum  under  $15  shall  be  punished  by  imprisonment  in 
the  State  penitentiary  for  a  term  not  more  than  14  years,  and  not  less 
than  one  year. 

Q.  I  think  a  man  can  be  sent  to  the  penitentiary  for  stealing  one 
cent  for  not  less  than  a  year,  and  not  more  than  three? — A.  Yes’,  sir; 
that  is  the  amendment  of  1877. 

Q.  Now  there  was  an  act  passed  at  the  last  session  of  our  legislature, 
which  I  could  not  get  this  morning,  on  the  subject  of  burglary  or  bur¬ 
glarious  trespass ;  I  wish  you  would  describe  it. — A.  There  was  an  en¬ 
actment  during  the  last  session  of  the  legislature  of  1879  to  the  effect 
that  any  person  who  should,  in  the  day  or  night,  with  or  without  force, 
enter  the  property — describing  different  characters  of  property — of  an¬ 
other,  with  the  intention  of  committing  any  misdemeanor  or  doing  per¬ 
sonal  violence,  or  removing  any  property  which  the  party  was  not  au¬ 
thorized  to  remove,  he  should  be  guilty  of  felony,  and  imprisoned  not 
more  than  fourteen  and  not  less  than  two  years. 

Q.  Then  if  a  man  were  to  step  into  an  outh  mse  for  a  loaf  of  bread  or 
apiece  of  bacou-ham,  he  could  be  punished  in  that  way? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  not  passed  because  people  were  tramping  around  through 
the  State,  and  going  into  outhouses  ami  stealing  ? — A.  I  do  not  know 
the  entire  spirit  of  it,  but  when  the  session  first  met  there  were  some 
young  men  in  our  county  charged  with  larceny,  and  the  evidence  estab¬ 
lished  that  they  had  gone  to  a  man’s  stable  and  taken  his  horse,  or  per¬ 
haps  two  horses  and  sleigh  ;  and  they  had  driven  around  over  the  coun¬ 
try.  He  pursued  them  and  did  not  get  up  with  them  until  they  came 
back  to  the  stable.  It  was  not  their  intention  to  steal  the  property,  but 
only  to  use  it  for  their  frolic;  and  hence  it  was  an  error  in  charging 
either  larceny  or  burglary,  as  there  was  no  felonious  intent.  There  was 
another  case  of  a  tramp  who  had  gone  to  the  house  of  a  lady  there  and 
taken  her  horse  and  ridden  it  some  distance  and  then  turned  it  loose. 
So  I  wrote  to  Major  Gordon  and  suggested  some,  such  an  act  as  this,  and 
it  was  passed. 

Q.  Then  it  must  have  commended  itself  to  the  votes  of  a  majority  of 
the  members  of  the  legislature? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  1  do  not  know  what 
occurred  at  the  passage  of  it. 

Q.  What  is  the  demand  for  unskilled  laborers  in  Shelby  County  ? — 
A.  Well,  sir,  our  poor  farm  is  conducted  with,  I  think,  very  great  econ¬ 
omy,  at  an  expenditure  of  $10,000  a  year,  and  so  far  as  my  knowledge 
and  information  is  concerned,  the  demand  for  labor  has  always  been 
abundantly  supplied,  and  still  there  has  been  ample  demands  made 
upon  the  accommodations  of  the  farm. 


* 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


269 


Q.  What  do  you  know  of  people  seeking  labor  about  there  and  not 
finding  it? — A.  I  know  of  many  round  there  who  are  good  laborers 
who  complain  of  having  no  work  to  perform. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  your  county ? — A.  Shelby. 

Q.  How  many  of  these  people  have  come  in  there  ? — A.  I  have  no  ac¬ 
curate  knowledge  of  the  number.  1  was  told  by  persons  who  counted 
the  first  batch  that  there  were  2G. 

Q.  That  you  say,  was  December  12? — A.  Yres,  sir ;  my  information 
is  not  very  definite  as  to  the  number  following  that. 

•  Q.  What  is  your  best  information  about  the  others? — A.  I  think  I 
could  safely  say  as  many  as  twenty  have  come  in  since  that. 

Q.  Were  they  men  or  women  mostly  ? — A.  These  I  understand  to 
have  been  men  who  have  come  in  since. 

Q.  All  of  them  ? — A.  I  have  understood  so. 

Q.  How  many  men  were  there  in  the  first  batch  ? — A.  As  I  stated,  I 
do  not  know  myself,  but  I  was  told  six  or  seven,  and  I  am  not  certain 
but  that  I  got  that  information  from  this  man  Harper. 

Q.  Then  there  were  about  the  usual  number  of  men  out  of  the  first 
twenty  six  composing  families? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  as  to  that.  I 
think  this  man  told  me  he  had  charge  of  one  or  two  families,  and  that 
the  husbands  had  not  come,  but  were  to  arrive. 

Q.  Then  there  were  rather  more  than  the  usual  number  of  women  and 
children  ? — A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  You  said  something  of  a  number  of  them  getting  off  at  a  station 
and  walking  or  riding  in  ? — A.  I  think  I'have  heard  of  some  getting  off 
at  Greeusburgh  and  Saint  Paul,  twenty  miles,  probably. 

Q.  They  would  get  oft*  at  the  station  and  come  in  at  night,  I  under¬ 
stand  ? — A.  lres,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  was  the  reason  of  that? — A.  I  do  not  know, 
but  I  understood  they  had  some  fears  of  violence. 

Q.  Was  that  after  the  organization  of  this  self-constituted  committee 
of  which  you  spoke,  and  who  were  to  go  and  see  them  arrive? — A.  I  do 
not  speak  of  anything  of  that  kind. 

Q.  What  is  that  room  of  which  you  spoke  ? — A.  I  stated  it  was  a  room 
once  occupied  by  Mr.  Blair  as  a  law  office,  and  I  went  up  there. 

Q.  Who  did  you  find  there  ? — A.  I  found  fifteen  or  twenty  persons 
there. 

Q.  What  were  they  doing  ? — A.  They  were  talking  about  receiving  a 
telegram  from  Cincinnati  that  a  large  train  load  of  emigrants  had 
started  to  Shelbyville,  and  were  going  down  there  to  the  depot  to  in¬ 
quire  into  it. 

Q.  Was  it  just  a  simple  inquiry  that  they  were  going  to  make?  Did 
it  occur  to  you  that  that  was  rather  a  novel  way  to  make  an  inquiry? — 
A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  think  it  occurred  to  me  in  any  way. 

Q.  How  did  it  occur  to  you  as  an  officer  of  the  law? — A.  I  do  not 
think  as  an  officer  it  occurred  to  me  at  all. 

Q.  How  did  it  occur  to  you  as  a  citizen  ? — A.  It  occurred  to  me  that 
there  wrere  some  hoodlums  going  down  there  to  act  the  fool. 

Q.  What  kind  of  people  were  they  in  this  party? — A.  They  were  not 
the  best  class  of  people,  some  of  them. 

Q.  You  thought  they  were  a  crowd  of  roughs  going  down  to  the  train 
to  act  the  tool? — A.  I  think  some  in  the  party  were  pretty  rough. 

Q.  How  many  respectable  people  did  you  notice  ?  —A.  Four  or  five. 

Q.  Were  they  opposing  the  operations  of  the  hoodlums  in  the  matter 
of  investigating  the  train  ? — A.  I  heard  no  talk  of  it. 


270 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  What  were  they  doing  ? — A.  They  were  quiet,  and  two  of  the  gen¬ 
tlemen  came  out  and  we  went  off  together. 

Q.  What  did  they  say  they  were  going  to  do,  these  hoodlums? — A. 
They  said  they  were  going  down  there  to  tell  the  damned  niggers  they 
could  not  stop  there. 

Q.  Did  they  do  anything  more  ? — A.  No,  sir.  I  thought  they  might 
go  down  there  an<i  talk  loud  and  give  us  just  such  a  report  as  we  got. 

Q.  The  report  made  of  that  affair  was  pretty  rough  in  some  cases, 
was  it  not? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  I  expected  it  from  the  character  of  our 
partisan  newspapers. 

Q.  And  you  saw  all  that  was  going  on,  and  as  a  peace  officer  did  not 
speak  to  prevent  it? — A.  I  am  not  a  peace  officer. 

Q.  If  you  see  a  mob  in  process  of  forming,  do  not  you  feel  it  to  be 
your  duty  to  tell  people  to  desist? — A.  I  did  not  take  it  that  there  was 
anything  in  the  character  of  a  mol)  there. 

Q.  What  is  a  mob  in  your  estimation  ?  —A.  Well,  it  is  something  in 
the  character  of  a  crowd  of  people  with  pistols,  rocks,  and  bludgeons 
bent  on  doing  violence. 

Q.  That  was  the  character  of  the  report  that  was  made  of  this  crowd, 
was  it  not? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  1  took  occasion  to  ask  a  number  of  peo¬ 
ple  about  it,  and  found  there  was  nothing  of  the  kind. 

Q.  Who  (lid  you  ask  ? — A.  1  cannot  tell  you  all  the  persons. 

Q.  Who  was  one  of  them  ? — A.  John  Hook  is  one  of  them. 

Q.  Is  he  a  hoodlum  ? — A.  He  is  recognized  as  one  by'some  people. 

Q.  And  you  went  to  the  hoodlums  to  hear  about  what  they  did  ? — A. 
I  went  to  one  of  those  who  were  there. 

Q.  And  you  went  to  them  to  know  what  they  did  as  a  mob  ? — A.  I 
thought  they  would  know  best,  certainly  better  than  people  who  were 
at  home  in  bed. 

Q.  Is  it  the  character  of  your  prosecutions  that  when  there  is  a  crime 
to  be  prosecuted  you  go  to  the  criminal  to  hud  out  whether  he  is  guilty 
first? — A.  I  have  frequently  had  men  charged  with  crimes  before  a 
grand  jury,  and  I  thought  it  was  my  duty  to  inquire  into  both  sides. 

Q.  Who  did  you  inquire  of  on  the  other  side? — A.  I  do  not  think  I 
did  so.  I  did  not  think  it  was  necessary  to  make  any  inquiries  on  the 
other  side. 

Q.  You  stated  you  did  make  inquiries  on  the  side  of  the  hoodlums  ? — 
A.  That  was  only  for  personal  reasons. 

Q.  And  you  were  satisfied  that  the  reports  of  their  transactions  were 
not  so? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  Democrats? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  else  did  you  ask?— A.  I  asked  Walter  Colt;  he  was  a  Re¬ 
publican. 

Q.  What  did  he  say?— A.  He  said  it  was  a  damned  lie. 

Q.  Most  of  the  Republicans  reported  the  names,  did  they  not  ? — A.  I 
do  not  believe  any  of  them  were  there. 

Q.  You  think  there  were  no  Republicans  about  the  depot? — A.  I  do 
not  know  of  any. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  to  any  of  them  about  it? — A.  Nothing. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  when  they  said  in  the  room  that  they  were 
going  to  the  train? — A.  Not  a  word. 

Q.  Were  you  not  in  favor  of  their  going? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  opposed  to  it? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  about  it? — A.  I  did  not  give  it  a  thought. 

Q.  Who  invited  you  as  the  prosecuting  attorney  to  go  up  there  ? — A. 
Nobody  did  it. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


271 


Q.  Were  you  not  tbe  prosecuting  attorney  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  were  invited  to  their  meeting'? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  told  you  to  go  upstairs'? — A.  I  think  Mr.  Wilson,  but  there 
was  no  consultation  about  it.  He  was  connected  with  a  newspaper.  He 
is  a  sort  of  volunteer,  and  he  simply  said  to  ine  to  go  upstairs. 

Q.  Did  he  go  up  with  y  out — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  were  the  politics  of  this  volunteer? — A.  Well,  his  paper 
that  he  was  with  pretended  to  be  a  Democratic  paper,  but  it  was  doubt¬ 
ful. 

Q.  To  get  at  it  straight,  now,  you  were  going  along  on  the  street  and 
a  man  invited  you  upstairs  into  a  room  ;  now  were  those  parties  you 
found  there,  those  15  or  20,  very  much  excited? — A.  No,  sir;  I  think 
not. 

Q.  They  had  received  news  that  a  train  load  ot  emigrants  were 
coming,  and  they  were  going  down  to  see  to  it;  what  did  they  mean  by 
that? — A.  They  said  they  were  going  down  to  tell  the  damned  niggers 
they  could  not  get  off  there. 

Q.  And  these,  you  think,  were  hoodlums? — A.  I  do  not  think,  and 
did  not  say,  they  were  all  hoodlums. 

Q.  You  said  there  were  respectable  people  and  hoodlums  in  the  crowd, 
and  they  were  going  down  to  the  train  to  tell  the  damned  niggers  they 
could  not  get  off? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  saw  them  making  these  arrangements  and  said  nothing? — A. 
Yes,  sir,  1  saw  them,  and  I  said  nothing. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  that  it  would  be  a  breach  of  the  law  to  prevent 
the  negroes  from  getting  off  the  train  ? — A.  Technically,  no,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  substantially? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  I  thought  that  breach  was 
more  than  closed  by  the  purposes  of  bringing  them  there. 

Q.  And  you  went  to  your  home  and  to  your  room  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  did  not  you  think  that,  after  the  prosecuting  officer  had  been 
invited  into  their  counsels,  and  had  failed  to  warn  them  of  their  viola¬ 
tions  of  the  law,  they  would  consider  you  would  not  be  hard  on  them  ? — 
A.  In  the  first  place,  I  did  not  think  of  it  when  I  got  to  my  room  ;  I  did 
not  think  anything  about  it.  I  was  not  sent  for  to  be  consulted  about 
it.  I  was  not  consulted  ;  not  a  word  was  said  to  me,  personally,  about 
the  purposes  of  their  going. 

Q.  We  understand  you  that  you  were  invited  up  there  ? — A.  I  under¬ 
stand  that  1  stopped  there  and  asked  what  was  going  on,  and  they  said 
t>  go  upstairs,  and  I  went  up,  and  found  these  men  there,  heard  their 
conversation,  and  then  went  home. 

Q.  Is  it  customary  to  invite  prosecuting  officers  iu  where  a  conspiracy 
is  being  formed  ? — A.  I  do  not  consider  there  was  any  conspiracy  iu  this 
case. 

Q.  You  found  respectable  men  and  hoodlums  there,  and  they  said  a 
number  of  people  were  coming  there  on  a  train,  and  they  were  going 
down  there  to  tell  them  not  to  get  off;  did  not  you  understand  that  that 
was  a  conspiracy  to  intimidate  those  people  ? — A.  I  understood  that 
there  were  a  number  of  men  who  were  going  down  to  the  train  to  tell 
the  damned  niggers  not  to  get  off,  and  you  can  make  what  you  please 
out  of  it. 

Q.  That  is  what  you  heard  ? — A.  That  is  all  I  heard. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  there  ? — A.  About  three  minutes. 

Q.  Who  addressed  you  first  when  you  went  into  the  room? — A.  I 
stated  to  you  that  I  was  not  addressed  at  all.  I  stated  that  I  stepped 
in  and  staid  there  a  moment  or  two,  and  then  went  home. 

Q.  You  staid  there  long  enough  to  know  they  were  going  to  keep 


272 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


these  negroes  and  innocent  people  of  a  peaceable  character  from  getting 
off  of  the  train  and  stopping  in  your  town? — A.  I  do  not  know  any¬ 
thing  of  the  peaceable  character  of  the  negroes.  I  thought  if  they 
went  down  there  and  did  what  they  said,  it  would  be  a  decided  notice 
to  the  negroes  that  they  were  not  wanted  there. 

Q.  You  thought  no  violence  was  going  to  be  committed? — A.  No, 
sir.  1  say  they  were  swearing  that  the  damned  negroes  should  not  get 
off  there. 

Q.  Were  they  men  who  would  naturally  give  a  polite  notice  of  that 
sort  to  people  they  did  not  like? — A.  They  were  the  kind  of  men  who 
usually  do  more  talk  than  they  do  acting.  I  did  not  believe  that  there 
would  beany  violence,  and  I  think  there  was  none.  I  think  my  impres¬ 
sions  at  the  time  were  proved  to  be  correct. 

Q.  Is  it  a  habit  in  your  county  to  call  the  prosecuting  attorney  in 
when  a  thing  of  that  sort  is  to  be  done;  or  did  you  think  that  this  was 
a  Democratic  crime,  and  you  being  a  Democratic  prosecuting  attorney, 
it  would  make  no  difference  if  you  were  informed  of  it? — A.  I  did  not 
think  any  of  those  things. 

Q.  It  is  the  habit,  is  it  not,  in  your  county,  to  call  the  prosecuting 
attorney  in  when  a  crime  is  contemplated? — A.  I  do  not  think  this  is  a 
Democratic  crime,  or  that  my  being  a  Democratic  prosecuting  attorney 
had  anything  to  do  with  my  going  there  that  night. 

Q.  Now  you  have  said  that  you  were  invited  to  go  there,  and  then 
you  have  said  that  you  were  not ;  which  shall  I  believe  ? — A.  I  said  no 
such  thing.  I  said  I  saw  a  man  named  Wilson,  who  was  near  the  foot 
of  the  stairs.  I  do  not  know  whether  he  was  the  party  or  not;  but 
when  I  asked  what  was  going  on  he  said  to  go  upstairs.  I  did  not  con¬ 
sider  that  as  an  invitation,  but  simply  a  notice  that  if  I  was  curious 
about  it  I  could  go  and  find  out  for  myself. 

Q.  You  saw  him  there? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  told  you  to  go  upstairs? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  said  I  saw  him 
there,  but  I  did  not  say  he  went  upstairs. 

Q.  Why  did  he  invite  you  up? — A.  I  have  no  impression  about  that, 
because  he  did  not  invite  me  up. 

Q.  Well,  think  about  it. — A.  It  requires  no  thought,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  no  impression  on  the  subject? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  came  down  after  seeing  what  was  going  on,  did  you 
have  any  impression  about  it? — A.  I  did  uot  think  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  see  him  up  there? — A.  1  never  said  he  was  up  there. 

Q.  Then  am  I  to  understand  that  you  were  ordered  up  there? — A.  I 
was  not  oidered  up  there.  I  have  said  to  you  a  dozen  times  almost,  and 
I  repeat  it,  that  I  met  William  Wilson  at  the  foot  of  the  stairs,  and  I 
asked  what  was  going  on  upstairs,  and  he  told  me  to  go  upstairs  and 
see. 

Q.  What  did  you  consider  that  to  be  ? — A.  I  told  you  the  facts,  and 
you  can  draw  your  own  conclusions. 

Q.  Then  I  draw  the  conclusion  that  it  was  not  an  order  to  you  ;  am  I 
right?— A.  I  give  you  the  facts,  and  you  can  digest  them  as  you  please. 

Q.  You  found  your  way  up  there  at  somebody’s  suggestion  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir.  I  have  told  you  that  twelve  or  fifteen  times. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  it  is  twelve  or  fifteen  times? — A.  To  the  best  of  my 
recollection  it  has  been  that  many. 

Q.  And  you  swear  it? — A.  Yes,  sir;  to  the  best  of  my  recollection. 

Q.  And  you  made  no  inquiry  about  the  mob,  except  to  the  men  who 
were  engaged  in  it  ? — A.  I  stated  so,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


273 


Q.  Who  were  those  resolutions  passed  by  ?  Were  they  citizens  of 
Shelbyville? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  were  they — the  resolutions,  I  mean  ? — A.  I  think  they  were 
to  the  effect  that  while  they  recognized  the  right  of  colored  emigrants 
to  emigrate  to  Shelbyville  or  Shelby  County  for  legitimate  purposes, 
they  believed  these  half  starved,  deluded,  and  unfortunate  wretches  were 
brought  into  the  State  for  political  purposes ;  that  they  were  deceived, 
and  that  it  was  the  duty  of  every  good  citizen  to  advise  them  and  get 
them  to  return. 

Q.  Have  you  a  copy  of  those  resolutions  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  a  sort  of  Democratic  arrangement  that  passed  those 
resolutions? — A.  Well,  sir,  by  way  of  parenthesis,  it  was. 

Q.  What  does  the  Democratic  party  think  about  it  ? — A.  They  think 
it  is  wise  to  make  these  people  understand  that  the  Republican  party 
are  using  them  as  though  they  were  cattle  or  hogs  driven  about  for  po¬ 
litical  purposes. 

Q.  That  was  the  opinion  of  that  caucus,  was  it? — A.  That  was  the 
spirit  of  the  resolution. 

Q.  What  was  that  resolution  of  theirs  about  the  penalty  ? — A.  That 
they  deemed  it  the  duty  of  the  officers  of  the  county  to  investigate  the 
matter  and  take  proper  steps  to  punish  such  persons,  either  foreign  or 
local,  whom  it  might  be  found  were  engaged  in  importing  these  people 
into  our  county. 

Q.  Tell  me  what  evidence  you  have  that  the  Republican  party  was 
doing  this? — A.  I  do  not  profess  to  give  the  evidence. 

Q.  You  have  not  any? — A.  I  think  it  is  a  logical  deduction  from  the 
facts,  which  you  might  make  as  well  as  T. 

Q.  What  are  the  facts  from  which  you  deduce  it? — A.  Well,  sir,  here 
are  poor  people  without  money  to  pay  their  way  to  the  North,  and  who 
know  the  people  they  live  among,  and  have  plenty  of  work  to  do  there, 
are  in  a  climate  adapted  to  them  and  to  their  natures,  who  are  "going 
into  a  State  where  there  is  no  work  for  them,  where  the  people  do  not 
understand  them,  where  the  climate  is  poor  for  them,  and  the  wages 
are  not  so  good  as  in  the  South ;  therefore  I  think  it  is  an  unreasonable 
thing  that  they  should  be  emigrating  in  that  way  unless  somebody  was 
assisting  them  ;  therefore,  as  the  Democrats  will  not  assist  them,  and  as 
the  Republicans  need  them,  I  make  the  deduction  that  the  Republican 
party  is  at  the  bottom  of  the  movement. 

Q.  Do  the  Democrats  have  any  sympathy  with  the  negro  in  your 
State? — A.  I  think  quite  as  much  as  the  Republicans,  except  in  the 
matter  of  their  votes. 

Q.  Your  party,  you  think,  has  as  much  sympathy  with  them  and  are 
as  good  friends  to  the  negroes  as  the  Republicans  ? — A.  I  think  the 
Democrats  of  my  State  have  as  much  sympathy  with  them  as  the  Re¬ 
publicans,  and  employ  as  many  of  them,  and  pay  them  as  well,  and  all 
that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  Republican  by  name  who  has  been  engaged 
in  bringing  these  people  there? — A.  1  do  not. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  of  one? — A.  No,  sir;  only  by  these  indefinite, 
floating  rumors. 

Q.  Why,  then,  do  you  charge  it  on  them? — A.  I  believe  I  gave  you 
my  reasons  a  moment  since. 

Q.  I  believe  you  did  not;  and  you  have  no  reason  therefor? — A.  Per¬ 
son  ally  I  have  not. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  anybody  else  state  that  they  were  doing  it  ? — A. 

•  Yes,  sir. 

18  EX 


274 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  What  investigation  did  you  make  of  it  ? — A.  I  made  no  extensive 
investigation  of  it. 

Q.  Have  von  made  anv  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  that  I  have. 

Q.  Do  you  know  why,  if  the  Democrats  are  so  dead  sure  that  the  Re¬ 
publicans  have  so  imported  these  negroes,  and  are  doing  it,  they,  the 
Democrats,  do  not  avail  themselves  of  the  penalties  of  the  law  ? — A. 
Well,  sir,  the  rascals  who  are  doing  it,  if  any  there  are,  have  been  so 
successful  in  coveting  up  their  tracks  that  we  cannot  find  them  out. 

Q.  You  cannot  find  them  out? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  yet  you  charge  it  on  the  Republican  party  ? — A.  I  think  it  is 
their  work  to  a  moral  certainty. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  a  moral  certainty  that  seven  or  six  men  were 
brought  in  there  by  the  Republican  party. to  vote,  encumbered  with  26 
women  and  children  ? — A.  I  think  that  might  be  done  if  others  were  ex¬ 
pected  ;  and  these  families  had  come  ahead  in  order  to  gain  a  residence  for 
them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  to  be  a  fact  from  anything  they  have  said  ? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  from  what  anybody  else  had  said  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not  know 
as  1  do. 

Q.  The  first  batch  you  say  were  26  in  number  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  there  were  about  six  men  among  them? — A.  Six  or  seven. 

Q.  Did  your  Democratic  party  come  to  the  conclusion  that  these  six 
men  w  ere  going  to  overslaugh  you,  and  that  the  Republican  party  brought 
these  people  there  simply  that  these  six  or  seven  men  might  vote  ? — A. 
My  impression  was  that  they  were  simply  a  starter,  and  were  to  feel  the 
pulse  of  the  people  out  there. 

Q.  Did  you  get  frightened  at  their  coming? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  get  disgusted  at  their  coming  ? — A.  1  do  not  know  as  I 
did. 

Q.  Do  you  really  think  if  they  were  importing  voters  to  carry  the  State 
that  that  might  be  the  way  for  the  Republican  party  to  do  it? — A.  I 
thought  it  might  be  done  that  way. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  reasonable? — A.  Yres,  sir,  I  do. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  reasonable  that  any  party  would  bring  26  women 
and  children  half  way  across  the  continent  in  order  to  get  six  votes? — 
A.  No,  sir  ;  I  don’t  think  you  have  any  right  to  draw  that  deduction 
from  anything  that  I  have  said.  I  said  I  thought  that  they  brought 
these  people  there  and  put  them  off  to  feel  the  public  pulse. 

Q.  How  did  you  get  that  impression? — A.  It  was  in  my  own  mind. 

Q.  Y"ou  had  not  heard,  had  you,  that  any  more  were  coming  ? — A. 
Y"es,  sir ;  for  it  had  been  preached  tin- re  since  1876. 

Q.  Who  by;  the  Democrats? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Principally  by  Mr.  Hendricks? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  he  is  a  very  re¬ 
spectable  man. 

Q.  It  was  used,  theu,  as  a  political  argument  by  your  party  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  And  when  26  women  and  children  aud  six  men  came,  you  thought 
it  was  going  to  be  the  commencement  of  the  avalanche? — A.  No,  sir; 
but  I  heaul  of  a  number  of  others  who  were  settling  in  other  parts  of 
the  State. 

Q.  Yrou  say  you  have  a  penalty  of  $500  for  bringing  paupers  into  the 
State? — A.  Yes,  sir;  for  settling  paupers  in  the  State. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  these  were  paupers  ? — A.  They  are  generally 
understood  to  be.  I  took  it  to  be  so  from  the  reports. 

Q.  Ho  you  know  of  any  effort  having  been  made  anywhere  in  your 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


275 


State  to  fix:  this  sentence  upon  any  party  in  the  State  ? — A.  Well,  sir; 
the  experience  I  have  had,  which  I  hive  detailed,  will  suffice  to  auswer 
yon  as  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  You  told  Mr.  Voorhees  that  an  effort  was  made  in  your  county? — 
A.  1  stated,  sir,  that  in  Shelby  County  the  grand  jury  caused  two  of  these 
men  to  be  brought  before  them,  and  their  sworn  testimony  was  given 
as  to  who  brought  them,  and  what  they  had  experienced. 

Q.  Did  you  find  out  who  brought  them? — A.  No,  sir;  I  found  out 
nothing  of  the  motives  of  the  parties  who  were  bringing  them  through 
the  country  and  seeing  them  at  the  depots. 

Q.  Did  you  learn  anything  going  to  show  that  the  Republican  party 
had  anything  to  do  with  it  ? — A.  I  learned  that  Sam  Perry  and  Williams 
were  going  through  the  South,  and  doing  this  thing  by  speeches  and 
misrepresentations  to  the  colored  people. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  anybody  in  Indiana  who  was  instigating  it  ? — A. 
No,  sir;  I  heard  the  witness  state  that  he  understood  that  they  were  to 
be  received  there  by  somebody,  but  he  did  not  know  of  anybody  who 
was  to  do  it. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  if  the  Republicans  were  engineering  this  move¬ 
ment  it  could  be  found  out  by  a  grand  jury  ? — A.  I  do  not  think  so. 

Q.  But  it  is  a  difficult  crime  to  prove  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  would  have  to  have  money,  would  they  not,  to  bring  these 
people  there  ? — A.  \res,  sir. 

Q.  Do  not  you  think  that  if  money  was  furnished  for  that  purpose, 
you  could  fiud  it  out? — A.  1  think  not,  sir. 

Q.  Suppose  this  was  a  conspiracy  to  pass  counterfeit  money  or  a  con¬ 
spiracy  to  steal  horses,  instead  of  to  bring  colored  voters  to  Indiana; 
what  do  you  think  then  ? — A.  I  tliiuk  the  same,  for  I  know  many  mur¬ 
ders  have  been  committed,  and  the  perpetrators  never  found  out.  I 
know  that  at  the  time  our  grand  jury  investigated  it  they  could  get  no 
evidence  on  which  to  base  an  indictment. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  of  any  more  efforts  in  that  line? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  not  think  that  you  can  find  out  who  of  the  Republicans  are 
doing  this? — A.  Well,  Senator,  if  you  cau  assist  me,  I  would  like  very 
much  to  rattle  some  of  them. 

Q.  Awhile  ago  you  used  language  of  this  sort:  that  you  did  not  want 
to  insist  very  much  on  your  denial  that  you  were  in  that  mob,  as  you 
were  a  Democrat;  what  do  you  mean  by  that? — A.  I  wanted  to  state 
that  I  was  not  taking  very  active  steps  to  disprove  that  I  was  with  the 
mob,  as  stated  by  the  Republican  papers.  They  stated  that  I  was  with 
Judge  Ord  and  Cflessner  and  others,  and  that  we  were  present  with  the 
mob,  and  encouraging  it.  I  want  to  state  that  I  was  not  with  it;  I  do 
not  want  the  statement  of  these  false  reports  to  be  taken  as  evidence 
against  me  here. 

Q.  And  you  said  you  were  a  Democrat  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  do  not  take 
particular  pains  to  deny  it.  For  political  reasons  it  did  not  make  any 
difference  to  me,  but  for  moral  reasons  it  might. 

Q.  Is  that  the  style  in  Indiana,  that  a  prosecuting  officer  does  not 
care  to  deny  that  he  was  in  a  mob? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  your  county  officers  generally  feel  that  way  ? — A.  I  do  not 
know,  sir. 

Q.  You  said  you  had  not  seen  any  Republican  papers  that  opposed 
this  exodus? — A.  No,  sir;  and  I  do  not  say  that  I  have  seen  any  that 
favored  it. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  any  Republican  or  Democratic  paper  that  is  op¬ 
posed  to  the  emigration  of  any  people  other  than  these  North  Carolina 


276 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


negroes  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  inasmuch  as  I  have  seen  numbers  of  them  that 
opposed  the  immigration  of  Chinese. 

Q.  Do  not  the  Ifepublican  papers  feel  and  hold  that  anybody  should 
be  permitted  to  come  there  and  make  it  their  home  ? — A.  I  think  I  have 
seen  editorials  in  some  of  them  against  men  coming  there  who  are  un¬ 
able  to  take  care  of  themselves,  and  I  do  not  know  of  any  efforts  to 
bring  them  there. 

Q.  Can  you  advise  the  suffering  Irish  people  to  come  there  ? — A.  I  do 
not  know  as  I  could  answer,  except  to  say  that  the  demand  in  Indiana 
for  labor  is  supplied. 

Q.  You  do  not  think  it  best  for  them  to  come  there? — xY  I  do  not 
tliiilk  it  best  for  them. 

Q.  Then  that  is  one  State  that  is  not  an  asylum  for  the  oppressed  ? — 
A.  I  do  not  know  as  to  the  sentiment  of  the  State;  I  speak  for  myself. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  You  knew  of  no  mob  iu  Shelbyville,  and  you  knew  that  as  well  as 
anybody  could  know  it  ? — A.  I  know  the  report  about  the  mobs  there 
were  gross  exaggerations. 

Q.  You  satisfied  yourself  that  no  violence  was  committed  ? — A.  Yes2 
sir. 

Q.  The  prosecuting  officer  in  Indiana  is.not  a  peace  officer? — xY  No, 
sir. 

Q.  He  has  no  power  to  arrest  anybody  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  to  command  the  peace? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  only  to  prosecute  complaints  that  are  lodged  with  him  ? — A. 
That  is  where  his  duty  commences. 

Q.  You  simply  heard  that  some  men  were  trying  to  prevent  these 
paupers  coming  into  the  county.  Do  you  think  it  a  crime  for  a  man 
to  try  to  prevent  the  commission  of  another  crime? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not 
think  it  was  any  crime  technically.  In  the  other  case  I  know  of  no 
statute  iu  the  State  to  punish  these  men  for  what  they  were  doing. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  It  seems  that  you  now  remember  something  else;  these  men  said, 
as  you  remembered,  something  about  paupers? — A.  No,  sir;  I  refer 
you  to  the  statement  I  made. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  them  say  that? — A.  I  did  not  hear  the  word  “  pau¬ 
pers  ”  used  ;  they  were  going  to  tell  the  damned  niggers  not  to  get  off*. 

Q.  It  was  ‘‘damned  niggers”  that  you  heard? — A.  Y^es,  sir. 

By  the  Chairman: 

Q.  When  they  got  off'  they  proved  to  be  paupers,  and  the  mayor 
made  a  proclamation  to  that  effect?— A.  No;  you  forget  the  time,  Sen¬ 
ator.  It  was  in  December  when  the  paupers  came  there,  and  the  proc¬ 
lamation  was  made  when  there  was  information  of  another  car-load  com¬ 
ing,  and  that  was  the  time  that  these  men  said  they  were  going  to  tell 
the  damned  niggers  not  to  get  off. 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  What  became  of  the  paupers  ? — A.  I  understand  that  IS  or  20  of 
them  are  down  below  town  in  a  hovel,  suffering  from  cold  and  hunger, 
but  I  do  not  know  anything  about  it  myself. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


277 


TESTIMONY"  OF  MILTON  M.  HOLLAND. 

Milton  M.  Holland  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Question.  You  are  a  member  of  this  local  organization  called  the  Em¬ 
igrant  Aid  Society  ? — Answer.  I  am. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  it  as  a  political  organization,  if  you  know 
anything  about  that? — -A.  The  organization  was  formed  about  the  20th 
of  March,  four  or  five  days  after  the  lot  of  emigrants  was  reported  in 
a  destitute  condition  at  Saint  Louis,  Missouri. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  That  was  last  March,  about  a  year  ago  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  Tell  us  what  the  objects  of  the  organization  were  ? — A.  They  were 
purely  charitable — to  aid  these  people. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  steps  ever  having  been  taken  in  any  way  what¬ 
ever  to  induce  men  to  go  to  any  State  or  Territory  for  political  pur¬ 
poses? — A.  No,  sir.  I  wish  to  say  right  here  that  that  question  may 
be  settled  at  once  so  far  as  our  organization  is  concerned.  We  have 
sent  sixty  odd  of  these  people  to  Ohio.  In  December  there  were  four 
men,  full-grown  men,  who  had  got  tickets  to  Indianapolis,  Iudiana,  and 
they  had  reached  the  depot  here,  and  iu  conversing  with  them  they  said 
that  they  desired  to  go  to  Gallia  County,  Ohio.  Mr.  Freeman  asked  me 
what  should  be  done  in  the  matter,  and  I  said,  “  Let  them  exchange 
their  tickets,  and  let  them  go  where  they  want  to.”  And  we  kept  them 
here  until  Mr.  Freeman  could  get  their  tickets  exchanged,  and  they  got 
tickets  to  Indianapolis.  Our  society  has  nothing  to  do  with  any  politi¬ 
cal  organization  whatever.  It  has  nothing  to  do  with  politics.  Mr. 
Perry  or  Mr.  Williams  are  neither  of  them  agents  of  the  Emigration 
Society.  We  have  no  agents  of  any  kind. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  any  ? — A.  Never. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  done  anything  in  any  way,  manner,  or  form,  as  a 
society,  to  encourage  people  to  leave  this  State?— A.  No,  sir;  but  we 
sympathize  with  them. 

Q.  Of  course  you  do.  But  the  society  was  organized,  as  I  understand 
you,  solely  with  reference  to  the  emigration  from  the  States  of  Louisiana 
and  Mississippi,  and  with  reference , to  helpiug  the  people  who  had  gone 
to  Kansas  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  State  any  efforts  you  ever  made  to  divert  them  from  Kansas  to 
any  other  place. — A.  I  never  made  any.  I  have  sent  some  to  Ohio,  to 
Gallia  County,  to  Athens  County,  and  to  Glen  wood,  West  Virginia,  and 
to  Parkersburg,  West  Virginia. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  send  them  there? — A.  Because  they  were 
here  and  a  gentleman  who  was  on  here  wanted  them  to  go,  and  some 
preferred  to  go  there  because  others  had  gone  there  iu  July  and  had 
written  back  to  them  that  they  had  done  well. 

Q.  In  these  localities  ? — A.  Ares,  sir.  When  I  was  there  in  Ohio — I  had 
my  leave  of  absence  last  fall — I  met — let  me  see  ;  I  have  got  a  paper 
here — three  men  and  two  boys,  good-sized  boys,  who  went  there  from 
here  on  the  18th  of  July.  We  helped  them  to  get  situations,  aud  they 
were  doing  well  at  Gallia  County,  Ohio — at  Harrisburg. 

Q.  And  you  understood  that  they  had  written  back  to  these  people  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir.  In  October  there  was  another  lot  went  to  Gallia  County, 
Ohio. 


278 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHEKN  STATES. 


Q.  Ilow  was  this  money  raised  with  which  you  helped  these  people  ? 
— A.  We  begged  it  from  charitably  disposed  persons — from  the  churches. 
And  I  wish  to  say  here  this  about  the,  Republican  party  :  I  have  a  good 
deal  of  fault  to  find  with  that  party,  and  in  this  way,  that  if  this  had 
been  a  political  movement  none  of  them  have  ever  given  anything,  and 
I  feel  very  hard  about  certain  cabinet  officers  who  gave  $50  to  the  Irish 
relief  fund  when  they  would  not  give  us  a  penny.  I  do  not  know,  how 
ever,  that  they  were  asked  for  it,  but  they  knew  that  these  people  were 
here  and  needed  help. 

Q.  Well,  from  what  you  have  heard  of  the  condition  of  the  people  in 
the  Southern  States,  in  Mississippi,  Louisiana,  &c.,  what  was  your  opin¬ 
ion  as  to  how  they  could  better  their  condition  by  going  to  Kansas  or 
anywhere  else? — A.  My  opinion  was,  and  still  is,  that  these  people  there 
in  Louisiana,  Mississippi,  South  Carolina,  or  North  Carolina,  can  better 
their  condition  in  Indiana. 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion  still  on  that  subject? — A.  Well,  sir,  from 
the  testimony  given  here,  I  have  been  continued  in  that  opinion,  and 
I  think  I  shall  work  with  a  great  deal  more  enthusiasm  in  this  move¬ 
ment  than  ever  before. 

Q.  In  the  discussions  that  have  taken  place  in  your  society,  has  there 
ever  been  any  resolution  or  act  or  anything  done  which  would  commit 
it  in  any  way  to  the  favor  of  any  political  movement  whatever  ? — A. 
No,  sir.  I  said  in  a  public  meeting  here — and  I  suppose  that  is  what 
has  caused  a  good  deal  of  talk  about  this  being  a  political  movement — 
that  if  the  Democratic  party  pursues  this  course  I  should  be  in  favor  of 
taking  every  man  south  of  Mason  and  Dixon’s  line  and  sending  him  oft 
to  the  North. 

Q.  What  for;  for  political  purposes? — A.  No,  sir;  but  that  they 
might  have  their  rights.  I  lived  in  Ohio,  near  the  Indiana  line,  and  I 
knew  that  it  had  always  been  considered  a  bad  State;  that  is,  it  had  a 
bad  record  during  the  war.  I  believed  and  I  thought  that  the  influence 
of 'the  Republican  States  of  Michigan,  Ohio,  and  Illinois  had  materially 
changed  their  sentiments  against  the  colored  people  since  the  waiybut 
I  never  did  favor  their  going  to  Indiana. 

By  the  Chairman: 

Q.  You  say  you  never  favored  their  going  to  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean,  then,  by  saying  a  moment  ago  that  they  would 
better  their  condition  in  Indiana? — A.  I  believed  then,  and  I  believe 
now,  that  their  condition  would  be  better  in  Indiana  than  in  the  South¬ 
ern  States. 

Q.  What  did  you  mean  to  say,  then  ? — A.  Well,  I  believed  or  thought 
that  there  would  be  enough  good  Republican  men  in  the  State  of  In¬ 
diana  to  protect  them  in  their  rights. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  saying  that  you  never  favored  their  going 
to  Indiana  ? — A.  I  never  urged  them  to  go  there  ;  I  preferred  their  going 
to  Ohio,  to  Illinois,  to  Michigan,  or  Kansas  and  Nebraska,  or  any  other 
State  that  you  could  mention  in  preference  to  that.  As  I  said,  I  had 
heard  and  knew  that  Indiana  was  a  pretty  hard  State;  that  is,  it  was 
during  the  war. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live  ? — A.  In  Columbus,  Ohio. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  there  ? — A.  I  am  not  living  there  now. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  saying  that  you  live  there  and  that  you 
do  not  live  there  ?  I  asked  where  you  lived  and  you  said  Columbus, 
Ohio,  and  in  the  next  breath  you  say  you  do  not  live  there. — A.  Sena¬ 
tor  Voorhees,  don’t  you  know  that  I  am  in  the  goverment  employ  merit 
here  ? 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


279 


The  Chairman.  I  do  not. 

The  Witness.  Well,  you  seemed  to  fiud  me. 

The  Chairman.  I  do  not  know  that  you  are  a  man  of  so  much  conse¬ 
quence  that  1  should  know  that  you  were  in  the  government  employ. 
The  Witness.  Of  course  not. 

By  the  Chairman  : 


Q.  What  position  do  you  hold! — A.  Second  class  clerk  in  one  of  the 
departments. 

Q.  In  what  department  ! — A.  In  the  Bureau  of  Internal  Revenue,  law 
division. 

Q.  Yes  ;  and  you  say  do  not  live  in  Columbus;  where  do  you  live! — 
A.  Here,  now. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  here!— A.  Ten  years  and  a  little  over. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  live  in  Indiana! — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  yon  ever  in  Indiana! — A.  I  might  say  that  I  was.  I  was  in 
Harris — I  think  it  is — part  of  it  is  on  one  side  and  part  on  the  other  of 


the  State  line. 

Q.  I  do  not  know  any  such  place. — A.  There  is  such  a  place. 

Q.  What  part  of  Indiana  did  you  live  in! — A.  Just  across  the  line. 

Q.  Yes;  and  you  had  always  heard  in  regard  to  Indiana  that  it  was  a 
pretty  hard  place  on  colored  people! — A.  Yes,  sir:  that  is  what  I  have 
heard. 

Q.  Still  you  think  that  after  hearing  what  you  have  heard  from  these 
witnesses  from  North  Carolina  that  you  would  work  more  enthusiasti¬ 
cally  to  get  the  people  from  the  South  to  Indiana  than  ever  before  ! — 
A.  I  did  not  say  from  the  South. 

Q.  You  named  the  States  of  Louisiana,  Mississippi,  South  Carolina, 


and  North  Carolina. —  A.  I  did  not  say  that  I  would  work  more  en¬ 
thusiastically  to  get  them  into  Indiana. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  ? — A.  I  said  I  should  prefer  their  going  to  In¬ 
diana,  bad  as  it  is,  rather  than  to  have  them  stay  in  these  States. 

Q.  You  think  that  Indiana  affords  better  inducements  to  the  colored 
people  than  North  Carolina  ! — A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  a  negro  in  Indiana  who  owns  a  thousand 
acres  of  land! — A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  No;  and  you  did  not  know  how  the  colored  people  were  treated 
there  ;  did  you  ever  hear  of  a  negro  serving  on  a  jury  in  Indiana! — A. 
No  ;  1  never  did. 

Q.  Did  you  know  of  a  canal  commissioner  in  Indiana  belonging  to 
your  race — the  only  office-holder  of  your  race  there! — A.  That  is  one; 
I  do  not  care  so  much  about  these  officers. 

Q.  No;  being  an  officer  yourself,  I  do  not  suppose  you  do.  Did  you 
ever  hear  tell  of  the  Republican  party  in  Indiana  giving  to  the  colored 
man  an  office,  other  than  that  which  Colonel  Hintou  had  as  canal  com-' 
missioner  ! — A.  I  have  heard  of  Walker  being  mail  agent. 

Q.  That  was,  he  carried  the  mail  from  the  Federal  office  to  the  depot. 
You  never  knew  of  one  in  the  Federal  legislature! — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  There  never  was  but  one  in  the  legislature  of  Ohio  till  this  winter  ! 
— A.  No;  but  we  are  going  to  have  more.  Ohio  is  coming  around,  and 
as  civilization  extends  I  hope  it  will  extend  over  into  Indiana;  I  think 
it  will. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  of  the  fact  that  a  colored  legislator  sued  some 
hotel  or  restaurant-keeper  for  not  letting  him  sit  down  at  the  table! — 
A.  I  did  not  know  that  he  was  sued;  but  I  did  not  approve  of  Mr. 
Williams’  going  there  if  they  did  not  want  to  entertain  him. 


280 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  You  have,  then,  no  political  feeling  yourself,  have  you  !— A.  None 
whatever ;  except  this,  that  I  want  to  get  these  people  out  from  what  I 
believe  to  be  the  oppression  of  the  South. 

Q.  You  think  they  are  terribly  oppressed  in  North  Carolina  ? — A.  I 
do  think  so.  When  a  man  has  to  live  on  three  pounds  of  bacon  and  a 
peck  of  meal  per  week  I  think  he  is  considerably  oppressed. 

Q.  There  has  been  no  proof  of  that  kind. — A.  That  is  the  testimony, 
I  think. 

Q.  From  whom  l — A.  Your  minutes  will  show — three  pounds  of  bacon 
and  a  peck  of  meal  a  week. 

Senator  Vance.  I  do  not  think  that  that  was  testified  to.  It  was 
ten  dollars  a  mouth  and  three  pounds  of  bacon  and  a  peck  of  meal. 

The  Chairman.  The  ten  dollars  a  month  escaped  your  notice;  you 
could  not  remember  that. 

Senator  Windom.  It  was  six  dollars  a  month  in  some  cases. 

The  Witness.  I  know  at  any  rate  that  Mr.  Kelley — mau  cannot  live 
on  the  wages  he  was  getting. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Well,  you  say  that  you  think  the  colored  people  are  greatly  op¬ 
pressed  in  North  Carolina,  and  that  they  would  do  better  in  Indiana  ! — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  there  is  nothing  political  in  this  movement  of  yours  at 
all  ! — A.  Nothing  political  at  all. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  that  is  all. 


TESTIMONY  OF  SAMUEL  L.  PERRY. 

Samuel  L.  Perry  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Question.  Give  us  your  full  name,  please. — Answer.  Samuel  L.  Perry. 

Q.  Where  do  you  reside  now  ! — A.  1  am  here  now  temporarily  on  Wil¬ 
son  street,  Washington  City. 

Q.  Where  has  your  home  been  for  several  years  past  !— A.  In  North 
Carolina,  sir. 

Q.  What  part  of  North  Carolina! — A.  Originally  in  Chatham,  but 
for  the  last  ten  or  thirteen  years  I  have  been  living  in  Lenoir  County. 

Q.  How  far  is  that  from  Goldsborough  ! — A.  Thirteen  of  fourteen 
miles  by  rail. 

Q.  You  have  heard  a  good  deal  of  this  testimony  with  reference  to  this 
exodus  from  North  Carolina.  Now  begin  at  the  beginning  and  tell  us 
all  you  know  about  it. — A.  Well,  the  beginning,  I  suppose,  was  in  this 
way  :  The  first  idea  or  the  first  thing  was,  we  used  to  have  little  meet¬ 
ings,  to  talk  over  these  matters.  In  1872  we  first  received  some  circu¬ 
lars  or  pamphlets  from  O.  F.  Davis,  of  Omaha,  Nebraska. 

Q.  In  1872! — A.  Yes,  sir;  in  1872 — giving  a  description  of  govern¬ 
ment  lands  and  railroads  that  could  begot  cheap;  and  we  held  little 
meetings  then;  that  is,  we  would  meet  and  talk  about  it  Sunday  even¬ 
ings — that  is,  the  laboring  class  of  our  people — the  only  ones  I  knew 
anything  about ;  I  had  not  much  to  do  with  the  big  professional  negroes, 
the  rich  men.  I  did  not  associate  with  them  much,  but  I  got  among 
the  workingmen,  and  they  would  take  these  pamphlets  and  read  them 
over.  We  then  thought  that  if  we  could  get  out  West  somewhere  we 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


281 


would  go  in  a  colony  ;  but  after  a  while  we  let  it  all  die  out ;  and  in  IS 70 
it  sprung  up  again,  and  we  sent  a  petition  to  the  legislature — to  Mr. 
Williamson,  I  think.  There  were  a  great  many  signers  to  that  petition, 
asking  to  ask  Congress  to  set  us  apart  a  territory  in  the  West.  That 
was  in  1870,  but  afterwards  they  gave  us  some  schools  and  one  thing  or 
another,  and  we  all  got  satisfied  ;  that  is  the  college  you  hear  so  much 
talk  about  and  the  asylum.  Well,  that  died  out ;  but  to  come  down  now 
to  the  fall  before  this  last - 

Q.  You  mean  the  fall  of  1878  ? — A.  Well,  I  was  going  to  say  that  the 
fall  before  last  the  crop  was  short  or  something  or  other,  and  there  was 
a  terrible  cleaning  up  of  the  colored  people ;  sometimes  two  or  three 
wagons  would  be  at  one  maids  house — white  people  as  well  as  colored 
people — and  they  would  talk  of  what  they  would  do  under  the  mortgage 
system.  And  these  complaints  came  up  again.  They  wanted  to  go 
away.  About  that  time  I  was  a  subscriber  to  the  New  York  Herald, 
and  from  au  article  the  report  was  that  the  people  were  going  to  Kan¬ 
sas;  we  thought  we  could  go  to  Kansas;  that  we  could  get  a  colony  to 
go  with  us.  That  waslast  spring.  We  came  together  and  formed  our¬ 
selves  into  a  colony  of  some  hundred  men  ;  that  was  all  we  was  to  have. 
It  was  not  to  be  considered  an  exodus  ;  we  did  not  use  the  word  emigra¬ 
tion.  There  was  only  a  hundred  of  us,  and  I  have  the  original  petition. 
I  have  got  it  here.  We  thought  we  could  probably  go  North  somewhere 
and  find  somebody  that  would  stand  behind  us  with  money  enough  to 
keep  us  up. 

Q.  If  you  have  that  petition,  let  us  have  it. — A.  We  started  with  one 
hundred,  but  afterwards  they  sent  sixty-eight  more  to  us. 

Q.  Just  get  us  that  petition  and  read  it. 

The  Witness  [producing  a  paper [.  It  was  addressed  to  the  National 
Emigrant  Aid  Society,  and  is  as  follows: 


To  the  National  Emigration  Aid  Society: 


We,  the  undersigned  colored  people  of  the  second  Congressional  district  of  North 
Carolina,  having  labored  hard  for  several  years,  under  disadvantages  over  which 
avc  had  no  control,  to  elevate  ourselves  to  a  higher  plane  of  Christian  civiliza¬ 
tion  ;  and  whereas,  our  progress  has  been  so  retarded  as  to  nearly  nullify  all  our  efforts, 
after  dispassionate  and  calm  consideration,  our  deliberate  conviction  is,  that  emigra¬ 
tion  is  the  only  way  in  which  we  can  elevate  ourselves  to  a  higher  plane  of  true  citi¬ 
zenship. 

As  our  means  are  insufficient  to  emigrate  without  the  aid  of  friends,  we  therefore 
petition  your  honorable  body,  through  our  worthy  agents  Samuel  L.  Perry  and  Peter 
C.  Williams,  for  aid  to  emigrate  to  some  of  the  Western  States  or  Territories. 

Aud  we  furthermore  agree  to  be  bound  by  any  contract  that  they  may  enter  into  in 
their  efforts  to  secure  aid  for  our  transportation  and  settlement;  aud  your  petitioners 
will  ever  pray. 


1  Redrick  Hood.  20 

2  J.  H.  Wooten.  21 

3  Jesse  Wooten.  22 

4  Thomas  Hill.  23 

5  Henderson  Washington.  24 

7  Lewis  Flemings.  25 

8  Orlando  Marrca.  26 

9  Henry  Wooten.  27 

10  Henry  Hardy.  28 

11  Robert  Wooten.  29 

12  Haywood  Edward.  30 

13  Bennett  Haywood.  31 

14  Wright  Parks.  32 

15  Aden  Smith.  *  33 

16  Raleigh  Wooten.  34 

17  Elias  Simmons.  35 

IS  Shade  Simmons.  36 

19  Oscar  Jones.  37 


Moses  Stubbs. 

Charley  Stubbs. 
Theodore  Washington. 
Simon  Wooten. 

Daniel  Maboru. 

Daniel  Blount. 

P.  L.  Wade. 

Abell  Gardner. 

Alfred  Mewborn. 

Allen  Spright. 

Tally  Mewborn. 

Cater  Brad  berry. 
Leonard  Sherrod. 

J.  R.  Martaiu. 

Henry  Smith. 

Ephraim  Jones. 

Hiram  Parks. 

Jane  Peacock. 


38  Frank  Blount. 

39  Deli lali  Howard. 

40  Geo.  Thompson. 

41  Rider  Bell. 

42  Caroline  Vest. 

43  Mingo  Simmons. 

44  Noah  Best. 

45  Jacob  Bryant. 

46  Eleeh  Gray. 

47  William  Warterr. 

48  John  Blue. 

49  Bryant  Harper. 

50  Axum  Kennedy. 

51  Caleb  Vaugbnee. 

52  Samuel  Miller. 

53  Sarah  Williams. 

54  Thomas  Gregory. 

55  John  Taylor. 


282 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


56  Joseph  Anderson. 

57  Spence  Edwards. 

58  Wm.  Wooten. 

59  Cicero  Wooten. 

60  Homer  Borden. 

61  R.  T.  Jones. 

62  Spence  Herring. 
69  S.  J.  Dixon. 

64  Julia  Hill. 

65  Hi  ram  Joyner. 

66  William  Lynch. 

67  Lewis  Anderson* 

68  Harkless  Fuller. 

69  Jeck  Kennedy. 

70  Solomon  Wooten. 

71  Henry  Barbee. 

72  Gabe  McMemitt. 

73  Haywood  Jones. 

74  Leah  Best. 

75  Abner  Whitney. 

76  Luke  Parks. 

77  Jane  Bryant. 

78  James  Palmer. 

79  Irwin  Simmons. 

80  John  Sutton. 

81  Frank  Taylor. 

82  Geo.  Hood. 

83  Rufus  Hood. 

84. A.  P.  Williams. 

A 

85  Barney  Dawson. 

86  David  Binghams. 

87  James  Darden. 

88  Gilbert  Hood. 

89  Bryant  Best. 

90  Bryant  Parks. 

91  Jon.  Gatlin. 

92  Henry  German. 

93  Kisiah  Smith. 


94  Wright  Rouse. 

95  Morning  Mosely. 

96  Peter  Fuller. 

97  William  Wooten. 

98  David  Best. 

99  A.  E.  Perry. 

100  J.  C.  Wooten. 

101  Adlas  Mitchener. 

102  Marv  Sutton. 

103  B.  II.  Herring. 

104  W.  A.  Chambers. 

105  Geo.  Conley. 

106  Daniel  Lottin. 

107  Henry  Thompson. 

108  Jack  Smith. 

109  Levi  Edmonson. 

110  Caleb  Sutton. 

111  Tobias  Williams. 

112  Limbrich  Lassetter. 

113  Jordan  Wooten. 

114  Joseph  Ford. 

115  C.  R.  Perry. 

116  Raleigh  Me  whom. 

1 17  Jack  Smith. 

118  Patrick  Joiner. 

119  Joseph  Goodin. 

120  Sanders  Jones. 

121  Henry  Gatlin. 

122  Biddle  Stroude. 

123  Alexander  Joiner. 

124  Peter  Reid. 

12b  Stephen  Wadkins. 

126  Franklin  Jones. 

127  Robert  Garrett. 

128  Benj.  Stanley. 

129  Francis  Adams. 

130  Williams  Reid. 

131  David  Johnson. 


132  Richards  Wooten 

133  Cesar  Dawson. 

134  Wright  Dawson. 

135  Samuel  Waters. 

136  Henry  Dawson. 

137  Reuben  Atmore. 

138  Willis  Wooten. 

139  Jerry  Williams. 

140  Frank  Blount. 

141  Henry  Smitu. 

142  George  Smith. 

143  James  Mathis. 

144  C.  J.  Joiner. 

145  Frank  Miller. 

146  Bright  Joiner. 

147  Daniel  Wo. ten. 

148  Jas.  Copse. 

149  C.  B.  Waters. 

150  Emily  Jones. 

151  Annie  Dawson. 

15)2  Madison  Lane. 

153  Sam  Thomas. 

154  Simon  Dancy. 

155  Mary  Shepherd. 

156  Abraham  Boyd. 

157  Henry  Cushin. 

158  P.  R.  Pittman. 

159  Willis  Statin. 

160  Joseph  Ellis. 

161  Robert  Harper. 

162  Raford  Staton. 

163  William  Croom. 

164  Chester  Nicholson. 

165  Arnold  Murphy. 

166  Solomon  Wooten. 

167  Allan  Davis. 

168  James  Taylor. 


Q.  This  is  signed  by  how  many  ? — A.  It  was  signed  by  oue  hundred 
at  first,  but  after  we  came  here  they  sent  us  sixty  eight  names  more. 
That  was  this  colony  there  which  was  added  to  the  hundred.  Well, 
we  organized  as  I  said.  We  had  a  little  colony  there.  I  think  it  was 
in  April,  probably,  and  the  day  afterwards  we  agreed  to  make  up  the 
colony.  They  said  if  Peter  O.  Williams  and  myself  would  go  West, 
either  to  Kansas  or  Southern  Nebraska  or  Colorado — if  we  would  go 
West  that  they  would  pay  our  expenses  there  and  back. 

Q.  Who  said  that  °! — A.  This  was  the  resolution  iu  the  meeting  of  the 
colony  in  North  Carolina.  That  was  the  understanding,  that  we  were  to 
go  and  look  out  a  location,  get  a  section  of  laud  if  possible,  and  if  we 
could  get  anybody  to  stand  behind  us  and  assist  us — to  advance  the 
means  to  live  until  we  could  make  a  farm — we  would  go.  And  that  is 
the  money  you  hear  so  much  talking  about.  They  did  give  twenty-five 
cents  apiece,  some  of  them,  and  made  up  $54  in  all;  that  is  all  we 
ever  got  to  go  to  Kansas  with.  I  have  the  names  of  all  who  paid  the 
money.  That  was  to  be  the  colony;  it  had  nothing  to  do  with  the 
wholesale  exodus,  although  I  do  not  say  that  I  opposed  the  exodus,  but 
so  far  as  our  little  colony  was  concerned  we  did  not  represent  all  the 
people  of  North  Carolina,  only  ourselves.  We  left  on  the  15th  of  Sep¬ 
tember  and  came  on  and  presented  that  petition  to  this  society  here, 
the  National  Emigrant  Aid  Society,  as  we  understood  it,  and  they  told 
us  they  didn’t  have  any  money,  and  they  couldn’t  do  anything  for  us, 
and  we  staid  here,  I  think,  thirteen  days. 

Q.  By  “  we”  you  mean  yourself  and  Williams? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  myself 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


283 


and  Williams.  We  staid  here  about  thirteen  days,  1  think  it  was;  and  in 
the  meantime  we  was  waiting  for  money  from  home.  We  only  left  there 
with  $28;  I  think  that  was  what  we  both  had  to  go  to  Kansas  with. 
But  the  understanding  was  we  was  to  come  here  and  see  if  we  could 
get  from  here,  and  while  we  were  ’tending  to  that  they  would  make  up 
some  money  and  send  it  on  to  us.  But  we  failed  to  get  aid  here. 

Q.  They  did  not  furnish  you  with  any  money  to  go  ou  there? — A. 
No,  sir;  not  any  at  all;  they  met  and  talked  about  it,  but  they  never 
done  anything. 

Q.  Well,  you  and  Williams  were  on  your  way  to  Kansas? — A.  Yes, 
sir  ;  on  our  way  to  Kansas.  We  kuew  nothing  of  any  other  State. 

Q.  Did  you  get  money  finally  from  any  one  ? — A.  We  got  money  from 
AJ i*.  Galvin,  treasurer  of  a  church  here. 

Q.  You  mean  to  go  West? — A.  Yres,  sir;  to  go  away;  the  under¬ 
standing  was  that  we  could  get  to  Russell,  in  Kansas ;  that  was  the  point 
we  started  to  from  here. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  after  you  got  that  money  ? — A.  We  went  direct 
to  Indianapolis  from  here.  We  had  a  letter  of  introduction  to  Dr. 
Elbert,  a  colored  man  there,  a  physician.  I  think  we  got  there  Sunday 
night.  He  carried  us  around  to  Elder  Broiles,  a  colored  man,  and  min¬ 
ister  of  the  Second  Baptist  Church.  We  went  there  and  staid  proba¬ 
bly  eight  days.  The  next  morning  I  think  Dr.  Elbert  or  Elder  Broiles — - 
we  went  down  to  the  Journal  office  and  saw  Mr.  Martiudale  there,  but 
did  not  have  any  talk  with  him. 

Q.  You  didn’t  have  any  talk  with  Mr.  Martindale? — A.  No,  sir.  I 
saw,  too,  Mr.  Cobb,  I  think,  the  commercial  editor  of  the  Journal,  I 
think  he  was,  and  sent  for  Colonel  Straight  or  told  us  that  we  would 
meet  Colonel  Straight  at  some  time,  as  he  was  saying  something  about 
hunting  up  some  hands  and  probably  as  he  was  a  large  landowner  that 
he  could  settle  the  whole  colony  and  furnish  means  to  supply  them. 
We  went  to  see  Colonel  Straight;  I  don’t  know  whether  we  went  that 
day  or  not,  and  he  said  that  he  could  not  do  much  for  us. 

Q.  Does  Colouel  Straight  live  in  Indiauapolis  ? — A.  He  has  a  lumber¬ 
yard  near  the  railroad. 

Q.  And  he  said  he  could  not  do  anything  for  you  ? — A.  He  could  not 
do  it;  he  could  not  take  so  heavy  a  responsibility,  or  something  of  that 
kind.  We  afterwards  saw  Colonel  Holloway. 

Q.  Well,  what  did  he  say  ? — A.  He  could  not  do  it,  and  we  saw  Colo¬ 
uel  Dudley.  In  the  meantime  Williams  had  no  money  at  all,  and  we 
wanted  to  go  further  west.  After  seeing  Colonel  Nixon  and  Dudley  aud 
Holloway,  and  we  saw  this  man  Mills  that  was  here  the  other  day,  we 
went  to  Elder  Broiles  and  asked  him  to  let  us  have  his  church  to  lec¬ 
ture  in  and  raise  some  money.  He  did,  and  we  took  in  $1.10.  Mills 
told  us  that  he  could  not  furnish  us  tickets  at  less  than  $32  to  Topeka, 
Kansas.  It  took  all  we  could  get  to  go  to  Greencastle,  ludiana. 

Q.  What  did  you  go  to  Greencastle  for? — A.  We  had  a  letter  there 
to  John  H.  Clay,  the  man  who  scut  these  circulars,  so  we  went  over 
there.  No,  we  saw  Mr.  Langsdale  and  we  had  a  letter  to  him  too  from 
Mr.  Nixon  ;  they  called  him  Colouel  Nixon  ;  I  do  not  know  what  else  his 
name  is.  Then  we  saw  this  gentleman,  Mr.  Clay,  and  went  up  to  his 
house,  and  they  told  us  that  they  could  find  homes  for  the  people  there. 
They  told  us  so  in  Indianapolis,  too,  and  they  told  us  it  was  no  use  going 
to  Kansas  and  Colorado ;  they  told  us  that  in  Indianapolis,  but  we 
thought  it  would  not  suit  our  people  and  we  did  not  want  to  stop  there, 
because  these  people  that  we  represented  wanted  to  farm  and  not  to 
hire  out,  and  we  knew  it,  and  we  was  still  trying  to  get  west.  These 


284 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


people  in  Indianapolis  told  us  that  we  could  find  work  and  get  good 
wages,  but  we  did  not  know,  and  we  understood  when  we  left  home  that 
we  did  not  think  the  people  would  be  willing  to  put  up  with  hiring  out. 
At  Greencastle  Mr.  Clay  and  Jones,  Hawthorne,  the  leading  men  there, 
all  told  us  that  they  came  from  the  South  and  owned  property  and  things 
looked  splendidly,  and  they  told  us  they  were  getting  good  wages,  and 
they  told  us  what  pay  they  was  getting;  so  we  staid  a  night  and  part  of 
a  day  talking  with  these  men  ;  then  they  gave  us  these  circulars.  Still 
we  asked  Mr.  Clay  if  we  could  call  a  meeting  and  see  if  we  could  not 
raise  money  in  his  church  ;  said  he,  u  What  for  %  v  said  I,  “  To  go  West,” 
and  he  said  that  we  could  not  raise  any  money.  We  was  near  about 
forced  to  return,  and  we  came  back.  There  is  one  fact  I  want  to  state, 
that  only  forty  of  the  names  on  that  petition  has  given  anything  any  way, 
because  we  did  not  decide  what  we  was  going  to  do ;  we  did  not  think 
they  would  be  satisfied,  and  in  the  meantime  while  we  was  in  Indianapo¬ 
lis,  after  I  came  back  from  Greencastle,  I  heard  that  they  was  going  to 
arrest  or  mob  me  when  I  got  back  to  North  Carolina.  I  have  got  three 
letters  now  telling  me  not  to  go  back.  I  told  them  I  was  not  harming 
anybody  and  was  going  back,  and  I  went.  After  I  got  back  there  was 
a  camp  meeting  and  we  gave  out  these  circulars;  I  did  not  know  whether 
the  circulars  were  true  or  not.  It  stirred  them  up.  After  going  back 
we  never  made  speeches;  there  were  no  speeches  made. 

Q.  Had  you  ever  made  any  before  in  opposition  to  this  colonization  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir,  we  did.  Williams  and  myself,  wherever  we  were  called 
upon,  before  we  first  came  away,  we  made  speeches.  I  know  I  did  one 
occasion  at  the  court-house  in  my  county  there.  I  simply  reported  the 
products  and  laws  of  the  State — so  far  as  looking  out  the  laws  of  other 
States  I  had  done;  but  we  do  think  now  when  I  was  there  all  the  time 
meeting  the  laboring  classes — for  I  never  shined  around  much  among 
those  big  fellows,  though  I  was  around  among  them  at  all  election  times 
— now  we  think  there,  and  justly  so,  that  there  is  different  laws  on  the 
statute  -books  from  what  was  there  before  the  war  ;  they  are  more  severe. 
We  looked  at  them,  and  we  think  they  were  put  there  because  of  the 
colored  people. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  What  State  are  you  talking  about — North  Carolina? — A.  Yes; 
there  is  one  or  two  laws  there — this  road  law,  I  hear  them  talk  of 
that — that  caused  quite  a  confusion  both  among  white  and  colored  Dem¬ 
ocrats  and  white  and  colored  Republicans,  and  we  all  held  a  meeting  and 
denounced  that  law.  I  read  at  least  in  one  paper,  published  by  a  gen¬ 
tleman  there,  that  all  parties  denounced  it. 

Q.  What  was  there  about  that  law,  as  you  understood  it,  that  oppressed 
the  colored  people  l — A.  Why,  every  man  between  the  ages  of  eighteen 
and  forty -five  years  has  to  work  on  the  public  roads.  I  think  it  is  not 
less  than  ten  days,  and  as  many  more — I  think  that  is  the  way  it  reads 
— I  have  not  seen  it  for  some  time — whenever  the  overseer  calls  on  him. 
Well,  it  has  had  quite  a  bad  effect  on  the  colored  people,  to  my  knowl¬ 
edge;  for  instance,  right  after  the  crops  are  done — it  is  when  the  mer¬ 
chant  dou’t  furnish  much  to  the  man  who  mortgaged  his  crops, and  they 
generally  cut  off  supplies  then — so  the  man  had  to  knock  about  to  get  a 
living  as  well  as  he  could.  It  is  about  that  season  of  the  year  that  the 
men  are  called  on  to  work  on  the  road.  Sometimes  a  man  has  to  work 
on  the  road  eight  or  ten  days,  and  he  gets  no  pay  and  furnishes  his  own 
tools  and  everything ;  and  in  my  section  there  mighty  near  all  the  peo¬ 
ple  works  on  the  roads — all  the  colored  people. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


285 


Q.  Are  they  not  pretty  much  all  colored  people  in  your  section  ? — A. 
Yes$  sir  ;  nearly  all. 

Q.  While  you  were  on  the  subject  of  grievances,  just  tell  us  what 
created  the  dissatisfaction  among  the  colored  people? — A.  Well,  in  this 
landlord  and  tenant  act — I  have  heard  a  good  deal  of  complaint  about 
that ;  but  I  think  it  is  generally  heard  there  about  political  times.  At 
the  same  time  it  is  right  severe,  some  portion  of  it.  The  only  thing  I 
could  see  objectionable  in  that  is  that  it  forbids  a  man  moving  any  part 
of  the  crop  till  his  rent  is  paid,  and  it  leaves  that  to  the  landlord  to 
settle  himself ;  he  is  the  man  to  say  about  that  as  whether  advances 
are  made.  I  do  not  know  whether  any  other  liens  would  come  in  ahead 
of  his  or  not.  I  have  not  read  the  act  for  some  time.  Anyhow  that  is 
the  way  we  took  it — the  landlord  is  the  one  to  decide  when  his  rent  is 
paid  or  anything  else.  Another  thing  that  caused  unrest  among  the 
colored  people  was  that  they  cannot  feel  that  their  former  masters  will 
ever  recognize  them  as  their  equals  ;  that  is  another  thing.  They  cannot 
stand  up  to  a  white  man  and  demand  their  rights,  especially  from  their 
former  masters,  and  they  think,  and  I  do,  if  we  was  out  in  some  Terri¬ 
tory — I  don’t  mean  Indiana — I  think  it  would  be  different  when  we  can 
get  out  and  away  from  our  old  masters. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  complaints  made  in  courts  about  that  ? — A. 
O,  yes,  sir;  the  courts,  so  far  as  a  colored  man  is  concerned,  I  know 
they  are  unjust  and  unfair  in  some  parts  of  the  State.  I  do  not  cover 
all  the  State.  < 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  what  is  the  complaint  of  the  colored  people  as 
to  the  couits? — A.  Well,  1  know  it  does  not  take  the  same  evidence  to 
convict  a  colored  man — that  is,  as  much  of  it — as  to  convict  a  white 
man  ;  because  I  have  been  on  the  jury  there  a  number  of  times,  and  I 
know  pretty  much  the  way  the  thing  goes  on.  I  was  on  the  jury  there 
last  fall  in  the  United  States  courts,  and  I  have  been  on  a  jury  in  our 
county  court  a  number  of  times.  Though  I  will  say  there  is  a  class  of 
colored  people,  that  is,  I  mean  there  are  two  grades,  there  are  some  col¬ 
ored  people  if  he  has  got  good  white  friends  he  will  get  along  all  right, 
but  there  are  few  of  that  kind.  These  higher  classes,  that  is,  not  the 
majority  there,  it  is  not  the  general  kind  among  the  colored  people. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  reasons  you  can  give  why  the  colored  people 
are  dissatisfied  ? — A.  Yes,  another  reason  :  Just  after  the  war  a  good 
many  Northern  men  stopped  down  there,  and  1  knew  of  several  who 
used  to  build  up  schools — Mr.  Ames,  for  instance,  right  near  where  I 
was — he  had  on  his  plantations  two  colored  schools  and  two  churches; 
it  was  not  his  plantation  ;  he  rented  it.  He  had  a  good  many  colored 
people  and  used  to  have  little  meetings  for  their  advancement  and  so 
on.  And  there  is  another  man  that  stopped  down  there.  I  do  not 
know  hardly  if  they  claimed  violence  or  not,  but  it  was  one  thing  or 
another,  and  before  long  they  left,  and  they  have  all  gone  away.  The 
colored  people  looked  on  them  as  being  their  friends.  Of  course  they 
were,  because  they  were  running  the  schools  and  the  churches  and  paying 
for  it  out  of  their  own  pocket,  and  they  naturally,  you  see,  have  a  lik¬ 
ing  for  them. 

Q.  Hid  the  colored  people  have  the  impression  that  they  were  driven 
out? — A.  Yes,  sir;  we  know  it  in  some  cases.  Adjoining  our  county 
Sheriff  Cargo  was  called,  and  another  man  there.  We  know  it,  though 
we  didn’t  run  to  the  politicians  and  tell  them  all  about  it,  because  we 
didn’t  have  much  confidence  in  them  ;  that’s  the  fact  of  the  business. 
And  we  looked  at  all  these  things,  and  these  statutory  enactments  that 
seemed  more  severe  than  before  the  war,  and  we  wondered  why  it  is 


286 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


that  we  have  been  a  government  so  long  and  they  just  now  began  to 
talk  about  these  benefactors. 

Q.  Was  there  anything  in  the  papers  saying  that  this  is  a  white 
man’s  government,  etc.  ? — A.  Yes;  I  know  another  thing — taking  away 
from  the  people  the  right  to  elect  county  officers,  county  commissioners, 
and  justices  of  the  peace.  All  that  has  been  swept  away  from  us  under 
Democratic  rule  ;  that  all  has  added  to  the  dissatisfaction  and  unrest  of 
our  people,  because  in  our  county  the  magistrate  there  is  a  man  that 
declares  that  ua  nigger  is  no  more  a  human  being  than  a  horse  is  a 
mule.”  I  know  that  he  advocated  that  in  his  paper;  I  have  a  copy  of 
it  down  in  my  box  at  Goldsborough.  He  declares  that  as  a  general  thing 
a  nigger  is  not  a  human  being. 

Q.  What  paper  is  it  ? — A.  The  La  Grange  Yidette.  It  was  published 
in  1875  or  1374,  but  it  was  soon  suspended. 

Bv  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  You  say  it  was  soon  suspended  ? — A.  AYs,  sir. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  Well,  he  was  the  magistrate? — A.  Yes  ;  he  was  appointed  magis¬ 
trate  ;  of  course  he  could  not  be  elected. 

Q.  Who  appointed  him  ? — A.  The  legislature.  The  colored  people, 
when  that  man  administered  the  law,  and  when  he  asserts  that  the 
negro  is  not  a  human  being,  of  course  can  have  no  confidence  in  him. 

Q.  Are  you  positive  that  he  has  used  that  expression  ? — A.  O,  yes, 
sir;  he  don’t  deny  it. 

Q.  Did  you  think  that  tends  to  produce  confidence  on  the  part  of  the 
negro  race  that  they  will  be  fairly  treated  by  him  ? — A.  O,  no,  sir. 

Q.  What  other  papers  have  used  the  expression  that  this  is  a  white 
man’s  government;  whatabout  the  Goldsborough  paper? — A.  Ihaveseen 
a  good  many  things  in  that  paper  of  that  kind — it  has  been  so  many 
years  ago — it  was  about  the  time  the  civil  rights  bill  was  passed;  I 
have  not  read  the  papers  lately,  and  I  have  not  seen  it  in  The  Messenger 
or  other  papers  lately  as  plain  as  it  used  to  be. 

Q.  What  is  the  opinion  of  the  colored  people  as  to  whether  your 
people  really  ought  to  have  the  right  to  vote  ? — A.  I  used  to  talk  a  good 
deal  with  Democrats — with  a  number  of  leading  Democrats — and  they 
would  tell  me  this  is  a  white  man’s  government,  and  white  men  ought 
to  rule,  and  niggers  ought  not  to  have  a  vote. 

Q.  I  wanted  to  know  what  the  general  feeling  is  on  the  subject  among 
the  class  of  colored  people  you  associate  with  ? — A.  Well,  that  is  what 
we  think.  Another  thing  :  We  know  we  used  to  have  a  good  many 
colored  officers  down  there;  since,  we  have  lost  all  that.  We  do  not 
think  it  has  been  done  fairly.  Of  course  we  have  no  idea  that  it  was  ; 
there  is  some  that  have  a  different  idea;  but  we  do  not  believe  it  was 
done  fair.  And  we  think  we  used  to  have  in  these  different  States  all 
these  colored  members  we  was  to  have  in  these  different  States  and  do 
not  get  them  ;  all  that  we  think  is  unfair,  and  we  do  not  see  how  we  can 
remedy  it  by  staying  there,  and  we  think  we  ought  to  get  away  off  in 
the  Territories — away  oft  in  Colorado. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  the  colored  people  believe  will  be  their  treat¬ 
ment  when  the  Southern  States  are  entirely  controlled  by  the  Demo¬ 
cratic  party — -how  do  you  look  forward  to  that  event  ? — A.  I  have  heard 
some  talk  in  a  different  way  ;  I  have  hearn  some  say  that  they  believe 
the  amendments  would  be  repealed  aud  we  would  be  reduced  to  a  con¬ 
dition  worse  than  that  of  slavery ;  I  do  not  know.  Of  course  we  have 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


287 


no  confidence  in  the  Democrats.  We  think  if  they  were  to  get  in  power, 
we  claim  that  the  same  feeling  that  was  there  before  the  war  is  there 
now — that  is  the  way  we  look  at  it. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  How  do  you  account  for  the  fact  that  it  does  not  express  itself  as 
it  did  then  ? — A.  We  think  it  has  gradually  taken  hold  of  the  people. 

Q.  You  say  these  things  in  the  minds. of  the  colored  people  give  them 
the  desire  to  get  away  ? — A.  Yes;  the  feeling  has  been,  we  think,  for 
sometime,  though  not  much  is  said  about  it.  The  Liberia  movement 
in  187G — then  everybody  was  going  to  Liberia,  and  that  was  the  time 
they  gave  us  the  schools,  and  that  stopped  the  movement,  butit  created  a 
great  deal  of  unrest  among  the  colored  people.  I  was  opposed  to  their 
going  to  Liberia,  and  on  that  account  I  had  a  good  many  disputes  and 
talks  about  it ;  I  told  them  I  was  opposed  to  going  to  any  foreign  country  ; 

I  believed  we  had  a  right  to  stay  in  this  country,  and  I  said  then  let  us 
go  West,  to  Southern  Nebraska;  that  is  where  I  have  been  wanting  to 
go  to,  and  I  expect  to  keep  hanging  on  to  that. 

Q.  You  heard  the  testimony  of  the  colored  man  from  North  Carolina 
here  ? — A.  No,  sir.  I  was  not  here  yesterday. 

Q.  Well,  tell  us  what  else  you  did  after  you  went  to  Indiana. — A. 
As  I  started  to  tell  you  I  received  letters  that  I  would  be  arrested  when 
I  got  back.  I  told  them  O,  no.  Of  course  the  white  people  down  there 
I  used  to  have  a  right  good  time  with  them  myself;  they  never  treated  me 
bad;  I  always  had  fair  play.  I  happened  to  have  right  smart  due  of 
politics,  and  could  hold  up  tolerably  well  among  the  laboring  class  of 
people  there,  and  I  didn’t  care  about  the  balance  of  the  niggers,  those 
big  niggers,  so  I  was  getting  along. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  your  ex  master.  Perry;  you  would  go  to  your  ex¬ 
master  very  quickly  if  you  wanted  him  to  do  you  a  favor,  would  you 
not? — A.  I  would,  for  a  favor,  yes,  that  I  would. 

Q.  Well,  he  would  treat  you  as  kindly  as  anybody  in  the  world, 
wouldn’t  he,  don’t  you  think? — A.  To  a  certain  extent  he  would,  me  in 
the  place  of  a  servant  and  him  a  master,  yes,  he  would  treat  me  kindly. 

Q.  I  don’t  want  to  talk  of  unpleasant  things,  but  a  man  like  you,  you 
don’t  fiud  social  equality  any  more  in  Indiaua  than  you  did  in  North 
Carolina,  do  you? — A.  No  ;  and  I  do  uot  advise  them  to  go  there. 

Q.  You  never  advised  them  to  go  there? — A.  No,  sir;  I  carried  these 
circulars,  but  so  far  as  making  a  speech,  I  told  them  what  the  meu  told 
me,  but  my  knowledge  of  the  State  was  too  sh  allow  to  advise  anybody 
to  go  there. 

Q.  Well,  it  is  your  deliberate  opinion,  taking  all  things  into  consider¬ 
ation — the  matters  you  complain  of  in  North  Carolina — that  it  is  not 
desirable  for  your  race  to  go  from  North  Carolina  to  Indiana,  is  that 
your  opinion  ? — A.  I  wall  tell  you  what  I  wuote  on  the  loth  of  Novem¬ 
ber;  I  wrote  to  the  old  gentleman  Bergen  that  if  I  owned  a  lot  in  In¬ 
diana  and  one  in  hell,  I  would  rent  out  the  one  m  Indiana  and  live  in 
hell  before  I  would  live  there;  that  is  the  way  I  expressed  it. 

Q.  Yrou  mean  that  you  would  seek  a  tenant  for  the  one  in  Indiana 
and  rent  that,  and  live  yourself  in  the  other  one  ? 

Senator  Vance.  Or  go  into  a  Republican  couutry. 

Q.  (By  the  Chairman.)  Are  you  a  preacher? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  a  good  deal  of  a  talker,  though,  ain’t  you  ? — A.  O,  I  used 
to  take  a  big  hand  in  Southern  politics. 

Q.  Well,  you  do  it  yet  when  you  get  a  chance,  don’t  you  ? — A.  No; 
when  I  run  this  man  O’Hara  I  went  out  of  the  business;  I  paid  a  man  a 


288 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


dollar  to  print  me  some  circulars  to  say  that  I  sold  out  all  my  interest 
in  politics;  O’Hara  sickened  me,  and  I  quit  the  business. 

Q.  So  you  consider  yourself  on  the  retired  list  as  a  politician  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir,  I  do.  I  hare  got  a  piece  here  taken  from  a  newspaper  (open¬ 
ing  a  memorandum  book  and  passing  it  to  the  chairman.).  It  is  from 
the  New  York  Herald. 

The  Chairman  (after  examining).  Well,  they  told  you  in  that  article 
to  go  West  and  grow  up  with  the  country,  didn’t  they  ?  I  see  it  don’t 
point  out  any  particular  place  J? — A.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  the  article  is  calculated  to  arrest  your  atten- 
tion. 

The  Witness.  We  had  been  making  calculations  for  a  long  time  how 
much  was  raised  in  the  West,  and  how  many  acres  of  land;  that  is, 
taking  the  government  lands  out  on  the  prairies,  and  we  done  that  all 
spring. 

Q.  Perry,  do  you  know  a  man  named  MacMerriek  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  does  he  live  now  ? — A.  He  went  to  Greencastle  first  and 
afterwards  came  to  Shelbyville;  at  least  I  saw  him  there  one  night. 

Q.  I  find  him  reported  as  saying  this  to  a  gentleman  out  there  :  “  We 
were  going  to  Kansas,  but  circulars  were  sent  from  Greencastle,  Iud., 
saying  that  we  could  get  good  houses  there,  and  our  delegates,  Perry 
and  Williams,  both  of  whom  are  teachers  and  preachers,  came  back  to 
tell  us  that  there  were  houses  here  for  ten  thousand  colored  people  or 
more.” — A.  The  circular  says  that.  I  tokl  you,  you  got  the  circular  -r 
that  is  what  it  said.  I  do  not  vouch  for  the  truth  of  it. 

Q.  They  said  that  your  people  in  Putnam  County  would  furnish  them 
with  fifteen  or  twenty  dollars  a  month,  with  a  cow  and  calf,  a  garden, 
and  wood  to  burn.  The  circulars  that  you  circulated  did  state  that,  did 
they  not  ? — A.  Yes  sir. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Perry,  as  you  have  such  a  terrific  and  brimstone  opinion 
of  Indiana,  you  must  have  formed  some  opinion  as  to  whether  these 
glowing  and  paradise  reports  in  this  circular  were  true  or  not;  what  do 
you  think  of  them  ? — A.  O,  I  think  it  is  a  little  too  much. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  a  little  too  much? — A.  YYs,  sir;  the  colors  were 
put  on  a  little  too  heavy  in  that  circular.  I  will  tell  you  what  my  opin¬ 
ion  of  that  is  now.  As  to  knowing  whether  all  this  work  and  prices 
could  be  furnished  or  not  I  am  unable  to  say,  but  I  think  that  as  the 
report  got  out  that  it  was  a  political  thing,  &c.,  and  the  Democrats 
were  opposing,  and  it  was  reported  that  we  was  burning  property  and 
these  houses,  that  it  deterred  the  people  and  made  them  refuse  to  em¬ 
ploy  these  emigrants. 

Q.  If  you  could  get  a  house  and  a  garden,  a  cow  and  a  calf,  and  wood 
to  burn,  and  $15  a  month,  you  would  rather  live  there  than  in  the  other 
country  you  spoke  of  a  while  ago,  wouldn’t  you  ? — A.  I  did  not  teli 
you  I  believed  we  would  get  it. 

Q.  I  know  you  did  not  believe  a  word  of  it,  and  that  is  what  I  am 
trying  to  get  it. — A.  I  intended  to  go  somewhere  in  the  West  myself, 
and  I  thought  if  these  things  are  so,  I  may  stop  in  Indiana  myself,  but 
afterwards  hearing  of  this  attack  and  everything,  I  said  to  myself,  well, 
I  would  not  live  there  for  a  hundred  dollars  a  day,  because  I  would 
not  feel  safe  if  all  these  these  things  be  so.  If  comes  to  a  party  question, 
and  two  parties  are  fighting  over  the  colored  man,  I  would  not  be  in  the 
wrangle. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  that  is  a  sensible  remark.  [To  the  witness.] 
Perry,  tell  me  first  time  you  were  ever  in  Indiana. — A,  The  first  time 
was  October. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  28£> 

Q.  This  last  October? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  there? — A.  Eight  or  ten  days;  not  over 
ten  days. 

Q.  Then  where  did  you  go? — A.  I  said  Indiana;  I  went  to  Indian¬ 
apolis,  and  from  there  to  Greencastle. 

Q.  I  am  not  asking  you  about  your  movements  in  the  State  ;  you  say 
you  were  in  Indiana  the  forepart  of  October;  after  .you  had  been  eight 
or  ten  days  in  the  State,  where  did  you  go  ? — A.  I  never  went  out  of 
the  State ;  I  came  back  here. 

Q.  How  longdid  you  stay  there  before  ytou  came  back  here? — A.  Not 
over  ten  days. 

Q.  And  you  came  back  to  Washington  ?—  A.  Yes;  I  came  back  on 
the  17th  of  October. 

Q.  Did  you  stay  here? — A.  I  went  to  Baltimore  to  see  Mr.  Cole. 

Q.  To  see  about  the  railroad  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  go  back  to  North  Carolina? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  time  you  were  arrested  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  longdid  ytou  stay  in  North  Carolina? — A.  We  stayed  there — 
we  left  Baltimore  on  the  20th  or  21st,  and  stayed  in  North  Carolina  till 
the  15th  of  November. 

Q.  Then  you  came  back  here  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  here? — A.  I  brought  my  family  when  I 
came  here. 

Q.  That  don’t  quite  answer  my  question. — A.  I  have  been  out  to  In¬ 
diana  two  or  three  times. 

Q.  After  coming  back  you  brought  your  family,  and  left  your  family 
in  Indiana  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  there  then  ? — A.  I  think  probably  a  week 
or  two  weeks. 

Q.  Is  that  the  last  time  you  were  there? — A.  No,  sir;  I  was  there 
two  or  three  weeks  ago.  I  took  three  or  four  trips  to  Indiana  in  all ; 
five  including  last  October. 

Q.  Yes,  and  each  time  you  were  there,  how  loug  did  you  stay  ?  What 
was  the  shortest  visit  you  made  ? — A.  I  think  I  went  off  one  Monday  and 
got  back  here  on  the  next  Sunday  morning. 

Q.  That  would  leave  you  there  three  or  four  days  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  would  make  your  longest  staYT  eight  or  ten  days  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Was  that  your  longest  stay  in  Indiana? — A.  Yes;  not  over  ten 
days,  I  think. 

Q.  Well,  now,  Mr.  Perry,  tell  us  what  prominent  white  men  you  got 
acquainted  with  there  ? — A.  Mr.  Holloway,  Mr.  Dudley,  and  Mr.  Jordan. 

Q.  Mr.  Holloway  was  postmaster,  was  he  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Mr.  Dudley  United  States  marshal  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  Mr.  Jordan  register  in  bankruptcy  ? — A.  Yes ;  and  I  saw 
Colonel  Straight;  this  man  Mills  that  was  to  furnish  all  the  clothing, 
he  forgot  to  tell  you  that. 

Q.  You  got  acquainted  with  Mills  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  get  acquainted  with  Colonel  Straight — I  believe  he  was  a 
general,  I  think  he  is  entitled  to  that  rank,  he  is  a  Republican  State 
senator  from  that  county  in  the  legislature  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  about 
that ;  I  never  heard. 

Q.  Did  you  get  acquainted  with  anybody  in  the  Journal  office? — A. 
Yes ;  with  Mr.  Martindale. 

Q.  Did  you  get  acquainted  with  this  handsome  young  gentleman 
19  EX 


2£0 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


liere?  [Indicating  Judge  Martindale’s  son,  who  was  present.] — A.  I 
think  I  never  saw  him  before. 

Q.  He  looks  something  like  his  father,  don’t  you  think  ? — A.  I  should 
say,  at  least,  he  is  small  to  compare  with  the  judge. 

Q.  You  got  acquainted  with  Judge  Martiudale  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  found  him  a  very  pleasant,  agreeable  gentleman? — A. 
Well,  Williams  and  me  complained  about  it — lie  seemed  a  little  dry,  and 
we  wasn’t  much  pleased. 

Q.  Dry?  — A.  Yes.  He  told  us  to  come  down,  but  we  never  had  any 
conversation  with  him,  any  more  than  he  told  us  to  come  down  that 
evening  and  see  Mr.  Cobb. 

Q.  Who  is  Mr.  Cobb  ;  the  city  editor  of  the  paper  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Cobb  ? — A.  YYs;  I  went  up  there. 

Q.  Did  he  write  you  up  pretty  nicely  next  morning  ? — A.  I  do  not 
know  as  it  was  the  next  morning;  he  had  a  little  piece  in  the  paper. 

Q.  Rather  friendly  to  the  movement,  wasn’t  he? — A.  O,  yes. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Mr.  John  C.  New,  chairman  of  the  State  Republican 
committee? — A.  Yes;  I  saw  him  once,  probably  in  the  post-office ;  he 
was  going  off  to  California,  they  said,  on  some  banking  or  mining  busi¬ 
ness. 

Q.  Did  any  of  these  prominent  men  tell  you  that  you  ought  not  to 
bring  any  negroes  into  Indiana  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  we  asked  them — of  course 
we  presented  our  petition ;  if  we  had  met  you  and  thought  you  had  any 
money  we  would  have  presented  it  to  you — telling  them  that  we  wanted 
help  to  settle  in  Kansas ;  they  all  told  us  they  could  not  do  it. 

Q.  Out  in  Kansas? — A.  Yes;  or  Colorado,  or  some  of  the  Territories 
— any  place  we  would  like. 

Q.  They  said  they  couldn’t  give  you  any  money  for  that  purpose  ? — 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Were  you  in  Indianapolis  when  that  telegram  came  telling  Mr. 
Tenney  to  get  -$620  or  $625  ? — A.  I  sent  the  telegram  here  myself,  or 
had  Mr.  Kooutz  to  do  it.  I  sent  it  through  Mr.  Koontz;  by  doing  that 
it  didn’t  cost  me  anything. 

Q.  You  say  vou  lectured  in  Indianapolis  in  the  colored  church? — A. 
I  did. 

Q.  For  the  sake  of  getting  money  to  go  into  Kansas? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  got  $4.10? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  about  twenty-four  hours,  however,  that  telegram  raised  $620? 
— A.  I  do  not  know  the  money  was  raised. 

Q.  Yrou  knew  that  the  fare  of  these  people  was  paid  ? — A.  I  left  that 
night. 

Q.  You  know,  Perry,  just  as  well  as  you  know  that  you  and  I  are 
sitting  at  this  table  looking  each  other  in  the  face,  that  that  money 
was  raised  because  of  that  telegram. 

A.  No ;  I  didn’t  know  one  dollar  was  raised. 

Q.  Have  you  any  doubt  about  it? — A.  Mr.  Koontz  told  me  it  was  not. 
I  left  with  the  party  that  had  tickets  that  night. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go? — A.  To  Indianapolis. 

Q.  What  did  you  find  when  you  got  there  about  the  money  that  had 
been  raised? — A.  They  said  nothing  to  me  about  it.  Mr.  Teuuy  came 
out  of  a  room — him  and  some  leading  colored  men  came  out  of  the 
room - 

Q.  So  you  had  Mr.  Koontz  to  telegraph  for  $600,  and  you  don’t  to 
this  day  know  whether  it  was  raised  or  not  ? — A.  Mr.  Koontz  told  me 
it  was  not. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


291 


Q.  How? — A.  Mr.  Koontz  said  it  was  not.  I  asked  him  if  he  got  it, 
and  he  said  not. 

Q.  None  of  it? — I  give  you  his  words. 

Q.  We  will  send  for  Mr.  Koontz. — A.  He  is  the  man.  I  do  not  know 
how  they  got  off.  I  went  that  night. 

Q.  Yon  went  that  night  ? — Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  knew  you  sent  that  telegram? — A.  He  sent  it. 

Q.  I  understand  that,  Perry ;  I  will  not  misrepresent  you  at  all ;  you 
need  not  be  afraid  of  that.  Were  you  there  when  this  lot  came  pursu¬ 
ant  to  your  telegram  ? — A.  I  think  I  was;  I  forget  the  number. 

Q.  Do  you  look  me  in  the  eye  and  tell  me  that  you  didn’t  talk  to  any¬ 
body  about  the  $625,  and  how  it  was  raised  ? — A.  Yes,  I  do.  I  had  no 
talk  with  anybody  as  to  what  was  raised. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  whether  it  was  raised  or  whether  it  was  not? — 
A.  I  do  not,  but  before  that  time  I  told  Mr.  Bagley,  chairman  of  a 
committee  there,  that  sometimes  these  people  came  here  to  Washington, 
and  had  already  overdone  the  churches,  and  concerts  were  gotten  up, 
and  it  was  quite  a  strain  on  the  people  here.  Bagley  had  a  relief  com¬ 
mittee  or  association  there,  I  think  they  call  it,  and  I  asked  him  if  he  was 
going  to  get  a  pass  for  the  people  here  who  could  not  get  away,  and  if 
he  would  send  a  telegram  and  deposit  the  money  with  Mr.  Tenney.  He 
said  he  didn’t  know  he  could  send  a  telegram,  but  would  if  he  could ; 
so  I  sent  it  on  these  words  of  his,  but  whether  it  was  raised  and  de¬ 
posited  or  not  I  do  not  know.  R.  B.  Bagley  is  the  man  from  whom  you 
can  find  out  all  about  it,  and  Mr.  Koontz. 

Q.  You  had  this  dispatch  sent  through  Mr.  Koontz ;  how  soon  after 
you  sent  it  did  you  go  to  Indianapolis? — A.  That  night;  I  was  going 
with  the  party  that  went  that  night.  There  were  two  parties.  I  went 
with  those  who  paid  their  own  way. 

Q.  You  had  Mr.  Koontz,  you  say,  to  send  a  dispatch  to  Tenney  to 
see  Bagley,  and  you  did  that  because  Bagley  told  you  about  his  being 
at  the  head  of  the  relief  committee,  and  then  that  evening  you  went  on 
yourself? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  I  was  there  when  Mr.  Tenney  came  out  of 
the  room.  There  was  two  parties  of  us,  and  I  left  the  party  that  had 
no  money,  and  they  were  the  ones  we  telegraphed  for. 

Q.  We  understand  that  perfectly  well,  that  you  left  a  portion  here 
that  could  not  go  on,  and  you  sent  a  dispatch  through  Tenney  to  reach 
Bagley  to  provide  for  them,  and  you  started  right  away  after  the  dis¬ 
patch,  and  got  there  by  the  time  Tenney  got  the  dispatch,  and  he 
showed  you  the  dispatch,  didn’t  he? — A.  No,  sir;  he  never  showed  it 
to  me. 

Q.  How  did  you  know  he  got  it?  You  heard  him  speaking  of  getting 
it  when  yon  got  there,  did  you  not? — A.  He  was  in  the  church;  had 
just  come  out  of  tbe  room. 

Q.  And  you  were  there  with  Bagley  ? — A.  I  came  in  as  they  came 
out. 

Q.  And  you  met  Mr.  Tenney,  and  knew  he  had  Koontz’s  dispatch ; 
how  did  you  ascertain  it? — A.  Yes;  I  knew  he  had  the  dispatch. 

Q.  And  yet  you  tell  this  committee  you  didn’t  know  whether  that 
money  was  raised  or  not? — A.  I  didn’t.  Mr.  Koontz  and  Mr.  Bagley 
will  tell  you  so. 

Q.  You  never  talked  about  it  that  evening  ? — A.  When  I  got  there 
they  spoke  to  me  about  just  getting  a  telegram,  but  as  to  telling  me 
whether  money  was  raised  or  not  he  didn’t. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  whether  he  could  raise  it? — A.  He  only  said  to 
me,  u  I  have  just  got  your  telegram.” 


292 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  You  had  telegraphed  to  him  to  raise  $G25  for  destitute  emigrants 
here  in  Washington,  and  you  got  out  there  yourself  as  soou  as  your 
telegram,  and  you  met  him  ;  now,  you  don’t  want  to  be  understood  that 
you  and  he  didn’t  talk  about  that  money,  do  you? — A.  No  money  was 
mentioned;  nothing  was  said  further  than  just  about  receiving  the 
telegram. 

Q.  Well,  here  were  these  poor  emigrants  at  this  end  of  the  line  with¬ 
out  money.  Now,  didn’t  you  ask  him  whether  he  could  raise  the  money 
or  not? — A.  I  do  not  know  that  I  did.  I  did  not  interest  myself  about 
asking  him. 

Q.  Well,  didn’t  you  care  whether  these  poor  lellows  got  any  money 
or  not? — A.  I  did  care. 

Q.  But  you  did  not  care  to  ask  him  whether  he  could  raise  the  money 
or  not;  you  cared  enough  to  have  the  telegram  sent  to  raise  the  money, 
and  when  you  met  him  you  didn’t  care  enough  about  the  matter  to  ask 
him  whether  or  not  he  could  raise  the  money  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  that 
I  asked  him  that. 

Q.  Is  not  that  a  little  singular  when  you  sent  the  telegram  for  that 
very  purpose  ? — A.  I  didn’t  know. 

Q.  You  knew  these  men  were  at  this  end  without  means,  and  you 
sent  the  telegram  ? — A.  But  I  do  not  think  that  I  asked  him  about  it. 

Q.  Arou,  an  emigrant  agent,  you  who  had  mainly  induced  these  people 
to  come  up  from  their  North  Carolina  homes  and  had  seen  them  landed 
here  without  means  to  go  on,  didn’t  interest  yourself  to  ask  about  the 
means  for  getting  them  on  ? — A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Well,  you  sent  these  circulars  out  ? — A.  I  sent  the  circulars,  but 
I  wrote  them  on  the  15th  of  February  not  to  come  to  Indiana. 

Q.  Is  that  the  reason  why  you  didn’t  ask  Bagley  whether  the  money  could 
be  raised  ? — A.  I  do  not  think  that  I  did.  He  says  to  me,  him  or  Elder 
Treveigne,  three  or  four  big  men  who  were  there  together - 

Q.  Didn’t  you  tell  Thomas  P.  Mills  when  he  was  here,  u  You  know 
how  that  money  was  raised;  you  keep  dark”? — A.  Isays  to  Mr.  Mills 
as  I  was  walking  up  the  street,  u  Flow  are  you  ?  ”  And  when  I  said, 
“I  am  going  to  make  you  tell  about  that  money,”  he  said,  u  Well,  I 
will  tell  the  truth,”  and  1  said,  u  so  shall  I.”  That  was  all  that  was  said 
between  me  and  Mills,  but  that  money  is  the  $27  which  he  says  is  only 
$25;  that  is  the  money  Mr.  Jordon  spoke  of  giving  to  me. 

Q.  How  many  negroes  did  you  leave  down  here  after  you  started  ? — 
A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  As  near  as  you  can  tell  ? — A.  I  could  not  say  ;  I  do  not  recollect; 
I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Well,  you  were  a  pretty  big  nigger  yourself  in  their  estimation, 
were  you  not? — A.  Well,  I  was  right  smart  during  the  campaign,  but 
it  always  came  hard  on  me  after  the  campaign  was  over.  I  did  not  be¬ 
lieve  these  letters,  because  I  knew  I  had  not  bothered  anybody ;  but,  of 
course,  they  claimed  that  I  had  demoralized  the  labor  system  down 
there.  I  did  not  care  about  that,  so  far  as  our  colony  was  concerned. 
I  was  determined  to  settle  them  in  the  West  if  I  could,  in  one  of  the 
Territories ;  so,  when  I  went  back  there  I  asked  an  officer  if  he  did  not 
have  a  warrant  against  me — after  being  there,  I  think,  twelve  days — 
and  he  said  yes. 

Q.  Well,  were  you  arrested? — A.  He  told  me  to  come  around  next 
morning — to  come  around  to  the  trial.  1  told  him  all  right.  I  came,  and 
this  same  man  that  declared  that  the  negro  has  got  no  soul,  he  was  the 
man  I  was  to  be  tried  before. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


293 


By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  What  was  his  name1? — A.  His  name  is  Dr.  P.  W.  Woolley.  He 
was  the  man  I  was  to  be  tried  before;  but  I  didn’t  take  no  notice  of  it. 
I  did  not  think  it  amounted  to  anything;  for  I  had  no  idea  there  was 
prejudice  enough  or  malice  against  me  to  fasten  anything  wrong  against 
me.  I  had  a  credential  from  the  mayor  of  the  town  and  the  officers 
there.  They  knew  my  standing ;  it  had  never  been  questioned  up  till 
now. 

Q.  Well,  what  was  done? — A.  They  had  an  indictment  against  me 
for  assisting  in  forging  papers,  or  something  of  that  kind — aiding  and 
abetting,  I  think,  was  the  word.  They  called  a  witness  on  the  stand, 
and  one  man  swore  very  hard  against  me.  He  didn’t  swear  that  I 
altered  any  names  or  figures,  or  put  in  any  names,  still  they  required 
me  to  come  there  and  give  a  bond.  The  church  there  was  taking  hold 
of  the  matter. 

Q.  The  colored  church  you  belong  to? — A.  Yes,  sir;  the  Methodist 
church,  and  the  Baptist  church  too,  though  I  did  not  belong  to  that. 
The  men  who  told  me  that  they  would  never  give  their  consent  to  set- 
tling  this  colony,  and  were  opposed  to  it,  came  that  day  and  put  their 
money  down,  and  told  me  if  it  had  not  been  for  that  thing  they  never 
would  have - 

Q.  Well,  you  say  there  was  no  evidence  implicating  you  in  any  way? — 
A.  Not  a  bit.  There  was  no  evidence,  and  I  did  not  make  any  effort. 
That  bond  was  given  in  April.  They  say  that  I  have  run  away. 

Q.  Your  bond  was  not  forfeited  till  April  ? — A.  No,  sir.  This  man, 
Mr.  Ducarte,  who  swore  against  me,  swore  that  I  run  away. 

Q.  What  bonds  were  you  put  under? — A.  $100,  I  think. 

Q.  Well,  you  have  had  more  connection  with  this  movement  from 
North  Carolina  than  anybody  else  that  you  know  of,  have  you? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  there  were  any  political  motives  connected  with  it, 
so  far  as  going  to  Indiaua  was  concerned  ? — A.  Not  that  I  know  of.  I  was 
in  Indiana,  as  I  told  you — Williams  and  myself.  Williams  was  a  minis¬ 
ter,  and  never  has  anything  to  do  with  politics,  and  we  talked  about 
that  between  ourselves,  that  we  was  afraid  there  might  be  some  political 
clap-trap  in  it,  some  kind  of  political  trick  or  other,  but  we  did  not 
know.  We  simply  got  off  and  talked  about  it,  and  we  wanted  to  go  off 
further  West ;  in  fact,  we  had  no  confidence  in  anybody  so  far  as  that  is 
concerned,  and  we  thought  it  might  be  so. 

Q.  Well,  have  you  co-operated  in  any  political  movement  or  had  any 
money  furnished  to  you  for  any  political  purpose  whatever  ? — A.  No,  sir ; 
not  a  cent  for  any  political  purpose  at  all. 

Q.  And  you  have  told  us  now  substantially  all  you  recollect  at  pres¬ 
ent  about  that  movement,  about  your  getting  it  up,  and  why  it  was — the 
motives  which  induced  it,  and  so  on  ;  if  you  think  of  anythiug  else  just 
give  us  the  whole  story  ? — A.  Auother  thing  I  forgot  about.  Down 
South  there  is  a  set — at  least  we  have  them  among  us  there — of  broken- 
down  politicians,  men  of  no  standing  at  all.  I  have  noticed  in  several  Re¬ 
publican  papers  even  about  being  cheated  out  of  the  election  there  in 
the  second  Congressional  district,  but  the  man  was  so  rotten  that  ran 
for  the  office  that  we  had  to  lay  him  over.  The  Republicans  I  admit — I 
do  not  say  the  Democrats — done  that ;  we  uever  charged  it  on  them.  Of 
course  I  am  a  Republican,  I  would  not  be  anythiug  else,  but  I  would 
vote  for  Kitchen  a  thousand  times  before  I’d  vote  for  any  man  like 
O’Hara,  because  he  was  a  man  that  was  a  bigamist,  had  two  wives,  and 
was  accused  of  being  in  jail  in  Halifax.  So  we  laid  him  over,  and  the 


294 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


intelligent  Republicans  was  satisfied,  aud  nobody  complained,  I  suppose, 
of  political  violence  there,  not  of  late  years  anyhow.  Bat  in  the  Kuklux 
time  of  coarse  there  was  violence. 

Q.  What  was  the  feeling  in  the  Kuklux  time  ? — A.  Why,  it  was  in¬ 
tense,  of  coarse;  that  was  rough  ;  that  is,  the  colored  people  was  alarmed; 
they  was  scared. 

Q.  Is  there  any  apprehension  on  their  part  now  as  to  a  return  of  that 
condition  of  things? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  kuow  that  there  is. 

Q.  Do  they  think  the  men  have  changed  very  much  on  these  things? 
— A.  No,  sir;  they  think  they  are  at  it  in  another  way.  We  think  the 
idea  is  to  get  us  poor,  and  keep  us  starved  down  from  hand  to  mouth, 
just  simply  to  get  enough  to  subsist  on.  In  fact,  in  our  particular  sec¬ 
tion  there,  there  has  been  no  violence  that  I  know  of,  and  that  is  lately ; 
but  in  the  Kuklux  time  there  was  a  good  many  colored  people  killed; 
I  know  of  several ;  but  that  was  in  1870,  I  think  ;  about  1870. 

Q.  Was  that  about  the  time  when  the  State  went  into  Democratic 
hands  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  that  was  the  year  that  they  read  us  fel¬ 
lows  out;  that  was  the  year  1870.  In  18G8,  that  was  the  year  Jim  Har¬ 
ris  got  the  bribe.  James  H.  Harris — he  is  one  of  the  men  that  in  1868 
got  the  bribe;  in  1870  the  Democrats  got  control  of  the  legislature ; 
they  did  not  get  the  governor  until  1876, 1  believe.  We  had  the  State 
officers,  but  they  had  the  legislature. 

Q.  If  you  think  of  anything  else  that  will  throw  light  on  the  subject 
you  may  give  it  to  us? — A.  I  do  not  think  of  anything  else  now. 

By  the  Chairman: 

Q.  Perry,  how  old  are  you  ? — A.  Thirty  years  old  on  the  15th  of  last 
July. 

Q.  Well,  you  have  been  a  pretty  active  enterprising  young  fellow  in 
your  time  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  a  mere  boy  when  the  war  closed? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was 
born  in  1849. 

Q.  Did  you  belong  to  somebody  before  the  war  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  be¬ 
longed  to  a  man. 

Q.  He  was  a  good  man,  was  he? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  was  he? — A.  Wiiliam  G.  Perry. 

Q.  Do  you  bear  his  name  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  he now  ? — A.  Ido  not  know,  sir;  I  have  not  hearn  of 
him,  I  think,  for  five  years.  I  left  him  in  Chatham  County,  and  I  went 
down  east.  Everybody  went  down  east  to  get  rich  in  raising  cotton.  I 
think  it  was  125  miles.  He  was  living  up  in  Raleigh,  and  I  lived  down 
in  Goldsborough. 

Q.  You  did  not  better  your  condition  by  going  down  east,  did  you? — 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  we  did.  We  had  more  money,  but  we  had  to  spend 
more.  We  used  to  raise  fruit  in  that  country. 

Q.  WTas  your  old  master  a  planter? — A.  Yes,  sir;  down  in  Chatham 
County. 

Q.  Are  you  a  married  man,  Perry? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where'is  your  family? — A.  Here. 

Q.  Here  with  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  you  commenced  turning  your  attention  to  this  matter  in 
1872  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  Uncle  Bergen,  old  Hemer  Bergen,  used  to  be  mag¬ 
istrate — he  was  an  old  colored  man,  and  we  elected  him  three  or  four 
times.  He  was  always  talking  about  going  to  Liberia  or  to  the  West. 
He  was  a  married  man  and  had  several  children.  We  got  the  circular 
of  O.  F.  Davis,  and  that  was  the  first  time,  in  1872  or  1874;  that  was 
the  first  time  we  heard  about  him,  and  that  we  could  get  free  lands. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


295 


Q.  How  many  of  those  emigrants  did  yon  leave  here1? — A.  I  found 
out,  when  the  train  started  to  go,  that  a  good  many  ot  them  had  money 
to  pay  their  way.  The  society  had  raised  it. 

Q.  You  telegraphed  to  them  for  $625  or  $620? — A.  Well,  I  do  not 
recollect;  I  think  he  said  $625.  I  don’t  recollect  exactly  what  amount, 
but  I  think  it  was  $600. 

Q.  How  many  negroes  would  that  carry  to  Indiana  ? — A.  I  don’t  know,, 
sir  ;  but  it  is  very  easy  to  tell.  Forty  something,  I  reckon. 

Q.  Do  you  want  to  make  any  change  in  your  answer,  that  you  do  not 
know  anything  of  money  being  raised? — A.  I  say  I  do  not  recollect 
talking  to  him  about  the  money ;  he  said  he  had  just  got  the  telegram. 

Q.  isn’t  this  the  truth,  that  when  you  got  there  the  first  thing  you 
did  was  to  inquire  whether  that  dispatch  got  there  ? — A.  I  do  not  know 
that  it  is  ;  I  think  the  first  thing  he  said  when  I  met  him  was  that  the 
dispatch  had  just  got  there. 

Q.  Wasn’t  it  a  fact  that  you  asked  him  that? — A.  He  said  he  had 
just  got  it. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  wait  there  some  little  time,  until  Tinney  came  home  ? — 
A.  No,  sir  ;  I  got  there  that  night,  I  think. 

Q.  Didn’t  Bagby  tell  you  that  Tinney  didn’t  get  the  dispatch,  but 
that  Levi  0.  Morriss  got  it? — A.  I  believe  there  was  something  of  that 
kind ;  but,  gentlemen,  I  have  got  nothing  to  keep  back.  I  recollect 
that  Bigbee  said  that  Morriss  got  the  dispatch.  That  was  a  mistake  I 
made  a  while  ago,  unintentionally.  I  recollect  that  Bigbee  did  tell  me 
that  Tinney  was  down  in  the  country  advertising  a  grand  reception. 

Q.  You  did  not  ask  Bigbee  if  he  could  raise  the  money  ? — A.  No,  sir; 
I  did  not  ask  him  anything  about  the  money. 

Q.  You  did  not  ask  if  anybody  could  raise  the  money?  You  knew 
the  people  were  here,  and  could  not  go  without  it  ? — A.  I  did  not  know 
that,  because  the  churches  and  things  here  had  sent  off  a  good  many 
before. 

Q.  But  you  thought  they  were  about  worn  out  in  their  charity? — A. 
I  thought  they  had  done  their  share. 

Q.  Have  you  given  all  your  reasons  why  you  have  changed  your 
mind  against  people  going  to  Indiana? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  began  to  thiuk 
there  was  some  mistake  somewhere ;  and  I  did  not  think  things  had 
been  told  that  were  right ;  that  the  truth  had  not  been  told,  or  that 
other  men  had  made  a  mistake.  I  first  lost  confidence  in  the  truth  of 
the  circulars.  I  know  I  was  out  there  once,  and  there  came  some  wo¬ 
men  and  said  they  could  not  suit  the  white  people  out  there,  and  they 
wanted  to  come  back  home.  There  is  a  good  deal  of  feeling  among 
them  in  favor  of  getting  back  ;  among  those  there  in  Indianapolis. 

Q.  How  long  is  it  since  you  were  there  ? — A.  The  8th  of  January. 

Q.  There  is  a  good  deal  of  sickness  and  some  deaths  among  them  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir  ;  some  of  the  children  died  therein  Indianapolis,  but  I  don’t 
know  how  many.  One  or  two  died  that  day  or  night.  I  went  to  the 
house,  but  I  did  not  stay  there  long.  There  was  one  child  dead  right 
at  the  door ;  some  children  were  sick,  and  I  heard  that  one  of  the  grown 
people  was  dying. 

Q.  You  are  a  retired  politician,  but  you  are  still  in  favor  of  your 
party? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  want  our  party  to  stand  up. 

Q.  You  think  it  would  be  a  good  thing  to  have  ten  thousand  of  those 
people  there? — A.  If  their  financial  and  industrial  condition  could  be 
made  right,  I  would  like  to  see  ten  thousand,  or  as  many  as  are  neces¬ 
sary,  go  in  there  and  work  a  revolution  in  the  politics  of  the  State. 


296 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  You  thought  that  when  you  were  organizing  this  movement? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Wasn’t  that  a  natural  feeling  of  your  kind  of  people  out  there  in 
Indiana? — A.  I  cannot  recollect  a  man  out  there  who  brought  up  the 
subject  of  politics  in  connection  with  it.  We  acted  on  our  petition  all 
the  time.  When  we  met  a  man  we  would  talk  to  him  about  it;  we  al¬ 
ways  poked  it  at  him.  I  said,  the  night  I  was  lecturing  in  the  colored 
church,  that  if  I  thought  there  was  any  politics  in  the  thing  I  would 
take  my  hands  out  of  it ;  and  I  was  poked  in  the  back  by  a  colored 
man  behind  me  who  said  I  ought  not  to  say  that. 

Q.  You  knew  you  were  with  the  big  men  of  the  Bepublican  party 
there  in  Indianapolis? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  I  do  that,  too,  at  home.  But 
we  were  introduced  out  there  to  men  who  were  said  to  be  philanthropic, 
and  would,  probably,  assist  us. 

Q.  The  day  that  Mr.  Morriss  made  that  little  speculation  with  you  and 
Williams,  where  did  you  get  that  money? — A.  Mr.  Jerdeu,  Mr.  Morriss, 
Williams,  and  myself  were  all  together;  but  the  money  was  all  given  to 
Williams  and  myself;  and  Morriss  got  into  the  buggy  with  Mills’s  in¬ 
structions  and  w7ent  down  there  to  the  depot  with  us,  and  gave  the 
money  to  his  brother. 

Q.  Did  you  know  they  were  making  a  speculation  out  of  you  by  sell¬ 
ing  you  these  tickets? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  found  that  out  afterwards;  but 
they  sell  tickets,  and  I  had  been  in  the  office,  and  knew  a  mau  coming 
in  there  to  bu3T  tickets,  and  I  thought  we  could  get  them  there  cheaper 
from  them. 

Q.  They  are  scalpers,  are  they  not? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  guess  so. 

Q.  Did  you  know  they  were  good  Republicans? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  heard 
a  good  deal  of  politics  in  there. 

Q.  Yrou  say  they  passed  the  money  around  so  fast  you  could  hardly 
see  it? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  could  hardly  see  where  it  went  to. 

Q.  Whose  money  was  it? — A.  Jerden’s. 

Q.  That  was  for  the  two  tickets  for  you  to  come  back  on  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir.  Mr.  Mills  said,  if  he  bought  them  at  the  depot  it  would  be  $18 
apiece,  and  he  would  sell  them  for  $13  each,  and  I  thought  that  was  a 
pretty  big  saving. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  to  get  that  squad  to  Greencastle? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
I  went  with  the  first  lot. 

Q.  Were  you  with  the  crowd  when  Langsdale  walked  them  up  the 
street  ? — A.  He  was  at  the  head  of  it,  and  I  think  I  wras  at  his  side. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  there  ? — A.  Until  Monday  evening,  I  think. 
That  wras  on  Saturday. 

Q.  Who  bought  the  tickets  for  them? — A.  Mr.  Reynolds  bought  the 
tickets.  He  is  the  mail  agent  at  Indianapolis.  I  seen  him  handling 
mail  bags  in  that  little  room  there. 

Q.  What  are  you  going  to  do  in  this  business  hereafter;  are  you  go¬ 
ing  to  keep  on  in  it  ? — A.  No,  sir  ee,  boby.  I  started  some  back,  the 
other  day  ;  or,  rather,  changed  them  from  Indiana. 

Q.  Well,  now,  about  this  little  arrangement  writh  the  Baltimore  and 
Ohio  Road  ;  did  they  treat  you  right  in  that? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  don’t  think 
they  treated  anybody  fairly.  I  never  received  a  cent  from  them.  When 
we  came  back  here  wre  went  to  see  Mr.  Cole,  to  see  what  rates  w7e  could 
get  from  Goldsborough  to  Indianapolis.  He  w7rote  to  me  he  could  put 
us  there  for  fifteen  dollars,  and  said  he  would  pay  us  seventy-live  cents 
on  each  passenger.  He  afterwards  offered  a  dollar.  He  said  he  would 
allowT  us  seventy-live  cents  for  our  services;  but  this  man,  Dukehart, 
came  down  there  and  saw  me,  and  raised  it  to  a  dollar.  1  was  the  only 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


✓ 


297 


man  lie  could  see  while  he  was  down  there.  He  gave  me  a  pound  of 
tobacco,  and  cigars  were  nowhere  ;  I  had  plenty  of  them. 

Q.  He  thought  you  were  a  fine  man,  then? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  was  to  give  you  seventy-five  cents,  and,  afterwards,  a  dollar, 
on  each  passenger? — A.  Yes,  sir.  Me  and  Williams  talked  about  it, 
and  we  would  not  agree  to  receive  it.  We  decided  that  we  would  let  the 
money  be  paid  to  the  Emigration  Aid  Society,  and  to  tell  them  to  fur¬ 
nish  tickets  to  our  colored  friends.  Mr.  Cole  never  paid  me  a  dollar. 
I  was  here  without  any  money  and  got  thirty-one  dollars  and  seventy- 
five  cents  from  the  treasurer  of  the  aid  society. 

Q.  You  think  the  road  ought  to  pay  you  something? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
but  they  don’t  do  it. 

Q.  I  think  they  ought,  myself. — A.  They  don’t  do  fair  at  all.  Cole 
wrote  mo  the  other  day  that  never  owed  me  a  cent,  and  that  he 
never  did. 

Q.  You  have  no  confidence  in  them  any  more  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  not  a  bit. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  been  sending  some  of  them  back  home? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  I  have  told  them  to  sell  their  tickets  here  and  go  somewhere 
else,  and  for  God’s  sake  not  to  go  to  Indiana.  Some  of  them  went  back 
to  Portsmouth,  and  some  to  Maryland,  and  some  have  gone  to  Pennsyl¬ 
vania.  I  told  them  I  went  into  the  thing  honestly,  and  when  I  saw 
it  was  wrong  I  gave  it  up. 

Q.  You  pointed  out  some  things  in  the  laws  of  North  Carolina  that  they 
complain  about;  now,  isn’t  it  likely  that  in  other  States  you  would  find 
laws  that  you  would  complain  of  just  as  much  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  per¬ 
haps  they  would  be  administered  or  executed  differently. 

Q.  Did  your  people  complain  of  the  execution  of  the  laws  when  Gov¬ 
ernor  Vance  was  governor? — A.  I  think  they  rather  praised  him,  as  he 
did  so  much  better  than  we  expected. 

Q.  You  have  schools  down  there — separate  normal  schools  for  your 
people  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  such  thing  as  that  in  Indiana? — A.  My  knowledge  of 
Indiana  is  small.  I  think  I  was  told  \>y  a  colored  man  there  that  the 
schools  were  all  the  same. 

The  Chairman.  We  have  a  large  and  magnificent  normal  school,  the 
finest  in  the  world  ;  and  it  is  in  my  town  ;  and  there  is  a  portion  of 
that  school  where  people  of  your  race  can  be  educated.  But  there  are 
so  few  of  them  in  the  State,  except  in  the  cities,  that  it  is  a  very  poor 
privilege  to  the  colored  race. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Now,  what  do  you  think  of  the  State  that  gives  you  a  separate  in¬ 
sane  asylum  ?  Is  there  any  such  thing  in  Indiana  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  I  only  wanted  to  give  you  some  additional  reasons  not  to 
like  Indiana. — A.  You  can’t  do  that  any  more  than  I  dislike  itno  w. 

Q.  I  understood  you,  Perry,  to  say  that  the  laws  in  relation  to  public 
roads,  passed  at  the  last  session  of  the  legislature,  you  understood,  were 
to  affect  the  colored  people  ? — A.  I  said  those  laws,  in  connection  with 
others,  were  complained  of. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  affect  the  negroes  more  than  any  others  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir  ;  that  is,  the  way  1  construe  it. 

Q.  What  is  that  law? — A.  That  a  man  between  eighteen  and  forty- 
five  must  work  the  roads  ten  days  in  every  year,  whenever  the  over¬ 
seer  calls  on  him.  The  complaint  is  made  by  both  white  and  colored 
people. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  desire  to  improve  the  public  highways  has  a  ten- 


298 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


deucy  to  hurt  the  colored  people? — A.  No,  sir.  The  colored  people, 
though,  have  little  stock  to  travel  od,  and  we  think  the  roads  ought  to 
be  worked  by  taxation,  and  men  paid  to  work  them.  I  know  at  our 
revival  down  there  they  took  our  preacher  out  of  the  pulpit  and  put 
him  on  the  public  works. 

Q.  Well,  his  business  there  was  to  learn  people  to  mend  their  ways, 
wasn’t  it? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  that  busted  up  our  revival. 

Q.  Your  race  don’t  own  much  of  the  land  and  the  stock  that  travels 
the  roads? — A.  No,  sir;  and  thereiore  I  say  the  roads  ought  to  be 
worked  by  taxation. 

Q.  Your  folks  don’t  pay  much  tax,  do  they? — A.  They  pay  a  poll-tax, 
but  have  got  nothing  else  to  pay  ou. 

Q.  Well,  the  poll  tax  goes  to  education,  doesn’t  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  matter  with  this  landlord  and  tenant  act  ?  Where  is 
there  anything  unrighteous  in  it? — A.  The  part  of  it  where  we  think  it 
is  most  severe  is  where  it  gives  the  landlord  the  right  to  be  the  court, 
sheriff,  and  jury,  and  say  when  the  rents  shall  be  paid. 

Q.  Does  it  say  that? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  when  the  landlord  says  my  rent  is  not  paid,  supposing  a  ten¬ 
ant  is  dishonest — when  he  wants  to  cheat  him — don’t  you  think  he  ought 
to  have  a  right  to  make  him  pay  ? — A.  The  reason  we  complain  is  that 
we  can’t  turn  any  of  it  into  money  unless  the  rent  is  paid. 

Q.  You  think  that,  by  the  act  passed  first,  by  the  Republicans,  he 
could  move  part  of  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  you  ought  to  be  careful,  Perry,  when  you  swear  to  the  law, 
because  that  is  written  down  and  can  be  proven  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  the 
whites  complained  of  this  law  the  same  as  the  colored  people.  It  bears 
heavily  ou  all  the  poor  people. 

Q.  It  does  not  bear  heavily  on  the  poor  man  when  he  is  honest  and 
wants  to  pay  his  rent. — A.  It  comes  hard  on  him  sometimes,  when  he 
wants  to  sell  a  part  of  his  crop,  to  hire  help,  and  buy  meat,  and  get  out 
the  balance.  And  then  they  claim  that  it  makes  them  sort  of  servants 
to  the  landlords. 

Q.  Any  man  who  owes  money  to  another  man  is  a  sort  of  servant  any 
way,  isn’t  he? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  three  wagons  coming  up  to  a  man’s  house  and  taking 
away  his  crop  ?— A.  Yes,  sir;  that  was  under  the  mortgage  system. 

Q.  Well,  the  man  had  mortgaged  the  crop? — A.  Yes,  sir.  That  was 
year  before  last.  There  were  short  crops  then,  and  merchants,  I  don’t 
suppose,  got  all  for  their  goods. 

Q.  If  the  merchants  advance  money  and  do  not  get  their  money  out 
of  the  crop,  the  tenants  get  the  best  of  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  merchant  loses  his  money  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  when  you  went  to  Chatham  county  ? — A.  I  was 
working  on  a  farm. 

Q.  As  a  hireling  or  as  a  cropper  ? — A.  As  a  hireling.  I  never  cropped 
at  all. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  get? — A.  I  got  eleven  and  twelve  dollars,  and 
I  eat  at  the  white  folks’  house.  I  worked  with  Mr.  Sutton.  They  paid 
me  more  than  anybody  else,  because  I  weighed  up  the  cotton,  and  all 
that. 

Q.  Then  you  were  not  oppressed  very  badly? — A.  No,  sir;  I  said 
awhile  ago  I  could  stay  there  and  do  pretty  well. 

Q.  You  said  there  was  a  desire  among  the  colored  people  to  get  away 
from  the  old  master  class.  Now,  I  ask  you  to  tell  this  committee  if 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


299 


the  old  master  class  are  not  better  friends  to  the  colored  people  than  the 
men  who  never  did  own  them  ? — A.  That  may  be  in  some  eases. 

Q.  Won’t  they  universally  do  more  for  them  than  the  people  who 
never  owned  them  ? — A.  They  will  as  servants.  I  went  to  my  old  mas¬ 
ter,  William  S.  Perry,  and  worked  with  him  up  there  in  1875,  and  he 
talked  of  putting  a  stick  on  me.  I  thought  that  I  was  a  citizen,  and 
that  was  going  too  far ;  but  you  know  I  could  not  go  back  and  talk  to 
him  like  any  other  man. 

Q.  May  be  he  did  not  have  much  opinion  of  you  as  a  man  when  he 
owned  you  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  he  let  his  folks  do  pretty  much  as  they 
pleased.  He  was  a  sort  of  Quaker,  you  know. 

Q.  These  changes  in  the  constitution  which  give  the  election  of  mag¬ 
istrates  to  the  legislature,  instead  of  the  people — you  know  the  cause  of 
these  changes  ;  now  state  them. — A.  I  know  that  they  claimed  that  the 
negroes  were  not  fit  to  elect  magistrates  for  themselves. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  that  they  had  some  down  there  who  could  not 
read  and  write? — A.  Ido  not  know  of  one. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Blunt,  at  Kinston  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  he  could  not  read  and  write  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but 
I  think  it  is  the  people  to  blame  who  do  that. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  also  there  was  universal  complaint  among  the 
Democrats  in  most  of  those  counties  where  they  had  a  large  Republi- 
can  majority  that  the  county  finances  were  taken  away  and  county  taxes 
were  not  collected,  and  when  collected  were  used  up  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I 
know  that  was  a  Democratic  complaint,  but  I  know  in  our  county  there 
was  money  out  at  interest  with  a  Republican  government.  That  was 
charged  during  the  campaign,  and  that  claim  was  the  cause  of  the 
change. 

Q.  The  Democrats  claimed  it  was  to  protect  the  county  against  cor¬ 
rupt  county  governments? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  was  the  claim. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  wanting  to  go  to  Kansas? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  wanted 
to  take  up  a  section  of  land  there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  constitution  of  Kansas  has  the  word  u  white”  in 
it  with  reference  to  suffrage  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  know  that. 

Q.  I  thought  you  said  you  were  looking  up  the  laws  of  the  several 
States? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  know  them.  I  said  of  our  State.  I  do 
not  know  of  any  more  laws  than  the  Revised  Statutes. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  a  man  named  Colgrove,  who  was  killed? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  he  was  a  sheriff  there.  We  claim  that  he  was  killed  because  he 
was  a  Northern  man. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  that  he  was  charged  with  encouraging  house-burn¬ 
ing,  and  all  that? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  in  1870,  and  that  was  the  general  understanding;  that 
was  the  time  the  Nethercotes  were  killed  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  not  Colgrove  a  convict  from  the  New  York  penitentiary  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir  ;  the  Democrats  claim  that  was  true. 

Q.  It  was  proven  on  him  by  the  records,  wasn’t  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I 
believe  it  was.  I  heard  of  it,  but  I  know  men  there  who  are  bad  men 
who  hold  office. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  the  correspondent  of  the  New  York  Times  that  Rouse  and 
Edwards  and  another  man  offered  him  a  thousand  dollars  for  your  head  ? 
— A.  No,  sir;  when  I  came  back  there  were  several  colored  men  who 
came  to  me  and  said  I  had  better  look  out,  that  I  was  in  danger,  and 
they  were  going  to  get  away  with  me,  and  that  they  had  offered  a  thou 
sand  dollars  for  my  head. 

Q.  Why,  you  would  not  have  brought  that  in  old  times.  You  are 


300 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


rather  undersized,  ain’t  you  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir.  I  said  that  I 
heard,  for  it  was  reported  to  me.  I  reckon  there  are  numbers  of  men 
who  told  me  that  if  I  walked  around  there  I  would  be  killed. 

Q.  Did  anybody  offer  you  any  violence  ? — A.  Not  that  I  saw. 

Q.  What  were  they  against  you  for  ? — A.  For  this  exodus ;  they 
thought  I  was  carrying  on  the  exodus.  I  had  made  speeches  there  and 
told  the  colored  people  of  the  government  lauds  and  those  on  the  Kan¬ 
sas  Pacific,  and  how  they  could  get  homesteads. 

Q.  What  did  you  tell  them  that  wages  were  ? — A.  1  think  $2.50  a 
day  and  $20  a  month.  I  wish  I  had  those  papers  with  me,  and  I  would 
show  them  to  you. 

Q.  You  didn’t  tell  them  they  could  get  that  in  Indiana  ? — A.  No,  sir  ; 
I  had  no  idea  of  us  going  there  at  that  time. 

Q.  This  statement  in  the  circulars  is  that  “the  fifteenth  amendment 
will  be  repealed,  and  all  the  colored  people  found  south  of  the  Ohio  on 
the  1st  of  May  will  be  put  back  into  slavery.”  You  knew  that  was  a 

lie  ? — A.  I  did  not  know:  I  laid  that  on  the  table  to  think  over. 

/ 

Q.  Now,  Perry,  you  knew  that  was  a  lie,  didn’t  you  ?  Heave  her  up 
now. — A.  To  be  honest  about  it,  I  did  not  know  what  Mr.  Clay  meant. 
I  wasn’t  there  when  he  composed  the  circular.  I  think  if  the  majority 
of  the  people  in  the  South,  of  the  white  people,  not  all  of  them — but  I  be¬ 
lieve  if  they  had  their  way  they  would  repeal  it. 

Q.  The  statement  in  the  circular  was  that  it  would  be  repealed.  Didn’t 
you  know  that  was  not  so  ? — A.  I  cannot  answer  that;  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Yrou  do  not  know  it  to  be  the  truth  t — A.  Of  course  I  do  not  know 
what  Clay  says,  and  that  is  the  truth.  I  cannot  say  that  I  know  what 
Clay  meant  by  that. 

Q.  You  won’t  say  you  knew  it  was  a  lie.  Do  you  know  it  was  the 
truth  ? — A.  I  know  that  were  not  so. 

Q.  And  yet  you  handed  around  this  circular  to  those  ignorant  people 
in  your  place  ? — A.  I  carried  them  there  at  the  request  of  Clay. 

Q.  And  every  fellow  that  was  induced  to  travel  off  on  that  you  got  a 
dollar  for? — A.  It  was  not  paid  to  me. 

Q.  You  got  a  quarter  of  a  dollar  from  all  the  men  who  signed  this  pe¬ 
tition  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  they  were  to  give  me  $250  and  only  paid  us 
$54. 

Q.  I  seethe  names  are  all  signed  in  one  handwriting? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
that  was  by  the  secretary  of  the  society.  Aud  nobody  was  sworn  there. 
We  threw  the  doors  open  right  there  by  the  roadside,  and  there  were 
no  sentinels. 

Q.  You  say  you  wanted  your  race  to  enter  upon  a  new  plane  of  higher 
Christian  civilization.  Was  that  the  way  to  get  on  that  plane? — A.  I 
do  not  vouch  for  all  that  is  in  that  circular,  Senator. 

Q.  But  you  handed  them  out  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  do  not  believe  them  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  see  men  around 
here  handing  out  Colonel  Ingersoll’s  lectures,  and  I  do  not  believe  them. 

Q.  You  believe  in  a  hell,  don’t  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  1  am  glad  to  hear  that.  Now,  in  reference  to  your  trial,  you  say 
you  gave  bond? — A.  The  church  gave  it ;  they  deposited  the  money  ; 
Mr.  Dickerson  and  Mr.  Morton  got  it  up. 

Q.  What  was  the  paper  you  were  said  to  have  forged? — A.  A  school 
order. 

Q.  An  order  for  school  money? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much? — A.  $54. 

Q.  What  did  the  forgery  consist  in  ;  in  making  it  too  big? — A.  Yes, 
sir  ;  that  was  it. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


301 


Q.  But  that  order  there  was  written  by  Aaron  Perry. — A.  1  used  to 
write  them  for  a  good  many  people  myself.  I  have  written  them  out 
for  white  ladies  and  others. 

Q.  This  paper  was  in  your  handwriting? — A.  No,  sir;  there  were 
white  men  there  who  swore  it. 

Q.  What  proof  was  there  ;  or  didn’t  you  hear  any? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  counsel? — A.  Yes,  sir;  Mr.  W.  S.  O.  B.  Bobinson? 
of  Goldsborough. 

Q.  He  let  you  go  on  to  trial  without  any  testimony  against  you  ? — A. 
How  could  he  help  himself? 

Q.  Who  presented  that  paper  for  the  money  ? — A.  I  do  not  know, 
sir.  All  I  know  was  what  I  heard  there  at  the  trial. 

Q.  The  committee  swore  they  never  signed  it? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  was  for  signing  the  names  as  well  as  making  it  too  big 
that  you  were  prosecuted  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  was  trying  to  make  the  money  out  of  it  ? — A.  It  was  Aaron 
Perry.  They  had  done  arrested  him  and  turned  him  loose  on  straw 
bail,  and  waited  to  arrest  me. 

Q.  Aud  you  say  you  was  tried  by  a  man  who  said  a  nigger  was  no 
better  than  a  beast? — A.  Yes,  sir.  He  is  an  honorable  man  in  most 
ways,  and  I  like  him,  but  he  said  that. 

(The  witness  here  produced  a  paper  which  he  presented  to  the  com¬ 
mittee  with  the  remark,  u  That  was  sent  me  by  a  justice  of  the  peace.’7) 

Q.  (By  Senator  Vance.)  Do  you  own  any  property  down  there  ? — A. 
No,  sir;  only  what  the  railroad  has  got.  They  say  they  have  got  it. 

Q.  Do  you  own  any  land  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  own  an  acre. 

Q.  Whereabouts? — A.  In  the  town  of  La  Grange;  part  of  it  is  in 
the  town,  and  part  out. 

Q.  Have  you  sold  it? — A.  I  gave  it  away.  I  could  not  hardly  say  I 
sold  it. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  give  it  to  ? — A.  I  got  $60  in  money  and  traded  out 
the  balance  ;  to  Henry  Dillon. 

Q.  Why  didn’t  you  wait  and  hold  on  to  it  ? — A.  I  had  mortgaged  it 
the  year  before  for  something  to  live  on  ;  the  mortgage  was  due  in  a  few 
days. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  mortgage  it  for  ? — A.  $28  or  $30. 

Q.  And  you  couldn’t  raise  that  much  money? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not 
think  I  could.  I  had  nobody  to  borrow  from,  and  everybody  else 
wanted  their  money.. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  speeches  to  the  people  of  La  Grange  on  the 
exodus? — A.  Last  summer  some  of  them  wanted  some  of  us  to  make  a 
speech  to  them,  and  I  probably  said  about  twenty  words  on  that  sub¬ 
ject.  I  said  that  I  was  going  to  Kansas;  and  then  they  met  at  every 
fortnight  at  the  school-house  to  consider  it. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  sentinels  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  not  while  I  was  there. 
If  they  had  while  I  was  gone,  it  was  contrary  to  the  rules. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  secrets  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  not  then. 

Q.  When  did  you  have  any  ? — A.  They  had  some  people  over  at 
Wooten’s  aud  some  meetings  over  there.  I  think  a  man  told  me  they 
found  it  necessary  to  hold  these  meetings  secret. 

Q.  Why  was  it  necessary  to  hold  them  secret  ? — A.  They  said  these 
white  people  being  opposed  to  our  leaving,  they  could  not  sell  anything 
they  had  to  advantage  unless  they  kept  the  movement  secret. 

Q.  They  didn’t  want  to  leave  without  selling  their  goods  ? — A.  No, 
sir ;  but  they  were  told  just  to  sell  them  as  though  they  were  going  over 
to  the  next  county. 


302 


NEGKO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  W as  that  the  only  reason  why  it  was  necessary  to  be  secret? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  any  violence  ottered  toward  any  of  them?— A.  No,  sir; 
not  that  I  ever  heard  of. 

Q.  The  poor  class  of  white  people  down  there  were  willing  for  you 
to  go? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  several  white  men’s  names,  who  said  if  I 
saw  places  for  them  to  write  to  them  and  they  would  come. 

Senator  Windom  (referring  to  the  paper  just  previously  presented  by 
the  witness).  How  came  you  to  get  this  paper  ? — A.  I  say  that  Mr. 
Dukehart  swore  and  Mr.  O’Hara,  a  carpet-bag  nigger  from  New  York, 
both  swore  about  me,  and  I  wrote  to  those  gentlemen,  the  justice  of  the 
peace,  who  was  p resent  at  the  trial,  to  send  me  a  statement  whether  he 
thought  it  was  a  fair  trial,  and  he  sent  me  this. 

Q.  (By  Senator  Windom.)  Read  it. 

The  Witness  (reading) : 

We,  tlie  undersigned,  citizens  of  Moseley  Hall  Township,  wore  present  at  the  bogus 
trial  of  Samuel  L.  Perry,  at  La  Grange,  in  November  last,  and  do  certify  that  there 
was  no  evidence  against  him  at  all.  We  have  known  him  for  several  years,  and  be¬ 
lieve  him  to  be  an  honest  colored  man,  and  innocent  of  making  out  school  orders  and 
signing  them  for  Aaron  Perry,  as  charged  against  him.  We  further  believe  the  charges 
were  more  against  him  on  account  of  the  exodus  movement  than  on  account  of  school 
orders  that  was  claimed  to  be  signed  by  him. 

BARNA  DAWSON. 

PATRICK  JOYNER. 

CISERO  WOOTEN. 

RABUN  HARPER. 

JOHN  WOOTEN. 

HOMER  BORDEN. 

ISAAC  DANAL. 

RUFUS  PARRY. 

PETER  DAWSON. 

RIGHT  RAWS. 

SAM  PARISH. 

REUBEN  ATMORE. 

I  certify  the  above  names  are  correct. 

R.  W.  MOORE,  J.  P. 

We  could  have  got  all  the  names  you  wanted  if  you  had  sent  in  time. 

Q.  Are  any  of  these  people  who  signed  that  paper  white  people,  or 
are  they  all  colored  men? — A.  The  justice  of  the  peace  is  a  white  man, 
elected  by  the  legislature.  He  is  a  man  who  was  summoned  to  swear  to 
my  handwrite,  and  could  not  do  it. 

Q.  What  is  this  other  paper  ? 

The  Witness  (readiug) : 

La  Grange,  North  Carolina, 

September  20,  1879. 

This  is  to  certify  that  the  undersigned  have  known  Samuel  L.  Perry  for  several  years 
and  recommend  him  to  be  trusty  and  reliable.  He  has  been  teaching  school  here  sev¬ 
eral  years,  and  at  the  same  time  an  acknowledged  leader  of  his  race. 

JAMES  C.  CARTER. 

A.  J.  McINTIRE,  Mayor. 

B.  F.  ALDRICH. 

S.  D.  POPE,  P.  M. 

JOHN  W.  SUTTON. 

Q.  Is  the  mayor  a  white  man  ?— A.  Yes,  sir.  That  little  town  is 
Democratic  ;  and  you  know  he  is. 

Q.  Are  they  all  white  men  who  signed  that  ?— A.  Yes,  sir,  all  of  them. 
Mr.  Sutton  has  been  constable. 

Q.  What  is  the  opinion  of  your  people  as  to  whether  the  fifteenth 
amendment,  in  case  the  Democratic  party  comes  into  power  in  the  State 
and  nation,  will  be  executed  faithfully  or  not? — A.  I  stated  to  Senator 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


303 


Vance  that  a  majority  of  the  white  people  would  be  in  favor  of  striking 
it  down  if  they  could. 

Q.  From  what  you  hear  of  the  state  of  things  in  Mississippi  and 
Louisiana,  what  do  you  think  about  it  there?  Do  you  think  the  colored 
people  have  tlieir  rights  guaranteed  by  it  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  What  is  the  understanding  of  your  people  about  this  fifteenth 
amendment,  whether  their  rights  are  abridged  in  the  Democratic  States  ? 
— A.  They  think  they  are. 

Q.  Do  you  know  about  how  many  colored  voters  there  are  in  the 
United  States  ? — A.  I  do  not  recollect  right  now. 

Q.  You  know  there  is  a  very  large  number  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  especially 
in  the  Southern  States. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  in  some  of  the  States  they  are  in  a  majority,  and 
in  some  of  the  Congressional  districts  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  since  the  Democrats  came  into  power  they  have  ceased  to  be 
represented? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  of  your  people  have  ceased  to  vote  ? — A.  A  good  many 
of  them.  We  know  that  we  are  cheated  out  of  our  representatives  in 
the  South. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  the  general  opinion  of  your  race  that  the  fifteenth  amend¬ 
ment  is  substantially  abrogated  in  those  States?  Isn’t  that  their  state 
of  mind  ?  x\nd  don’t  you  think  they  would  vote  if  they  could  ? — A.  I 
do  not  know,  sir.  I  could  not  say  as  to  that. 

Q.  Are  they  not  generally  inclined  to  vote  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  a  great 
many  of  them  don’t  vote,  because  they  do  not  expect  any  success.  We 
have  elected  men  time  and  again  and  could  not  get  them. 

Q.  Why,  were  you  cheated  out  of  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  We  should 
have  up  here  thirty-five  members  who  were  put  in  here  after  the  war  on 
account  of  the  colored  people. 

Q.  If  by  tissue  ballots  and  all  that,  that  amendment  is  abrogated  sub¬ 
stantially,  is  not  that  just  as  bad  for  the  colored  people  as  if  it  were  re¬ 
pealed  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  makes  no  difference  to  them  whether  it  is  repealed  or  vir¬ 
tually  abrogated  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  look  at  it  that  way.  We  don’t 
expect  anything  more  from  it.  Electors  don’t  amount  to  anything  with 
those  people  down  there,  and  I  have  often  said  that  if  I  wanted  to  get 
elected  I  would  conciliate  the  canvassing  board  of  the  Democrats. 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  your  old  master  class  treated  your 
people  very  well  as  servauts  but  not  as  citizens  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  is  your  relation  as  citizens  that  you  complain  of  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  general  opinion  of  your  race  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  school  facilities  of  North  Caro¬ 
lina — what  you  had  before  the  war? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  you  have  got  now  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  know. 
I  know  that  since  the  legislature  passed  that  tax  of  ten  dollar’s  upon 
each  merchant  it  has  run  up  pretty  high. 

Q.  You  saw  the  statement  in  the  paper  about  it ;  what  was  it  before 
the  war  ? — A.  I  think  it  was  $2,000,000. 

Q.  And  it  was  reduced  down  by  Democratic  rule  to  $100,000  ? — A.  No, 
sir;  I  do  not  know  anything  about  that. 

On  motion  the  committee  adjourned  to  Monday,  February  9,  1880,  at 
10  o’clock  a.  m. 


304 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


TWELFTH  DAY. 

WASHINGTON,  Monday ,  February  9, 

The  committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment;  present,  the  chairman 
and  all  the  members.  The  taking  of  testimony  was  resumed  as  fol¬ 
lows  : 


TESTIMONY  OF  WILEY  LOWEBFY. 

Wiley  Lowerey,  colored,  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Where  do  you  live? — A.  In  Kinston,  Lenoir  County,  North  Caro¬ 
lina. 

Q.  What  is  your  business  at  home  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  run  drays  on  the 
street,  and  I  have  been  drayer  there  for  two  or  three  years.  I  keep 
store  besides. 

Q.  In  the  town  of  Kinston  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  held  any  public  office  in  the  county  ? — A.  I  have  been 
county  commissioner. 

Q.  How  long  ? — A.  About  eight  years. 

Q.  Are  you  county  commissioner  now  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  for  eight  years  you  were  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  of  the  colored  people  who  have  left  that  county 
in  this  exodus  movement  ? — A.  There  has  not  been  many  left  from  the 
town,  but  there  has  been  some  from  the  country.  I  was  up  at  the  de¬ 
pot  and  saw  some  of  them  going  off,  but  I  do  not  know  them  person¬ 
ally. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  cause  which  makes  them  leave  ? — A.  I  think 
that  this  man  Perry  was  the  gentleman  who  was  stirring  them  up.  I 
think  he  is  pretty  much  the  cause  of  it. 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  speeches  in  Kinston  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  him? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  never  went  to  hear  him. 

Q.  Was  it  reported  to  you  what  he  said  ? — A.  I  heard  it  going 
around  the  street ;  but  I  paid  no  attention,  and  didn’t  think  much 
of  it. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  what  inducements  Perry  held  out  to  them  ? — A. 
I  was  told  that  he  told  them  if  they  could  sell  their  things  and  go  to 
Goldsborough  they  would  have  free  transportation. 

Q.  From  Goldsborough  on  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  a  great  many  of  them 
went  up  there,  and  were  there  some  time.  But  I  don’t  know  how  they 
managed  to  get  away. 

Q.  What  wages  did  he  tell  them  they  would  get  ? — A.  From  a  dollar 
to  a  dollar  and  a  quarter  a  day. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  of  the  circulars  that  he  put  out  ? — A.  No, 
sir,  not  in  Kinston  ;  but  I  heard  of  them  all  around. 

Q.  Was  there  anything  like  a  society  organized  by  these  exodus  peo¬ 
ple  ? — A.  I  heard  that  they  were  holding  a  meeting  about  it,  but  I  never 
went  to  one  of  them. 

Q.  Was  there  anything  to  pay  to  get  into  it  ? — A.  I  think  there  was 
twenty-five  cents  a  head. 

Q.  That  was  to  join  the  society? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  it  was  secret  or  not? — A.  It  was  secret,  I 
suppose. 

Q.  Did  any  of  these  people  leave  your  section  by  reason  of  not  being 
allowed  to  vote  freely? — A.  No,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  305 

Q.  Or  because  they  were  persecuted  by  the  white  people  in  any  way  ? 
— A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  not  justly  treated  in  the  courts,  when  they  were  tried  for  any¬ 
thing? — A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not.  I  think  they  left  because  these  agents 
held  out  the  positions  that  they  could  get  higher  wages;  and  I  think 
most  of  them  have  left  on  that  account. 

Q.  And  that  is  all  that  you  heard  about  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  anything  of  the  fifteenth  amendment  being  repealed 
and  the  black  people  being  put  back  into  slavery? — A.  No,  sir.  It  has 
also  been  stated  that  they  left  because  their  wages  was  not  sufficient  for 
them  to  live  upon. 

Q.  State  what  the  usual  wages  are  that  are  paid  down  there  ? — A. 
From  eight  to  ten  dollars  a  mouth. 

Q.  What  does  that  include  besides  his  pay  ?  Is  the  man  boarded  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  that  means  eight  and  ten  dollars  a  mouth  and  his  board. 

Q.  I  am  speaking  now  of  farm  laborers. — A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  is  it. 

Q.  Does  he  have  a  house  to  live  in  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  His  firewood  and  patch  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  that  he  wants  to  attend  to? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Eight  and  ten  dollars  is  given  to  a  good  hand? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  women  and  inferior  hands  worth? — A.  Five  to  six  dol¬ 
lars. 

Q.  What  time  does  the  hiring  generally  last;  how  many  months  on 
the  plantation  and  at  what  ra^e  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  when  we  are  coming  to 
picking-out  time  the  hands  don't  like  to  work  for  wages,  as  they  make 
more  picking  out  cotton. 

Q.  How  much  do  they  make  ? — A.  Women  can  make  a  dollar  a  day, 
and  men  can  make. as  much.  They  can  make  more  on  the  average  pick¬ 
ing  out  cotton  than  they  can  by  workiug  out  by  the  month. 

Q.  When  does  the  cotton-picking  season  begin? — A.  I  think  the  last 
of  September. 

Q.  What  kind  of  prices  does  skilled  labor  bring,  such  as  brick-masons, 
carpenters,  and  blacksmiths? — A.  From  one  and  a  half  to  two  and  a 
halt  a  day. 

Q.  Is  there  any  preference  shown  to  one  kind  of  workmen  over  others? 
—  A.  I  generally  see  them  working  on  the  same  building,  and  have  seen 
it  many  times. 

Q.  If  a  white  man  has  hands  to  hire,  which  has  the  preference,  the 
white  or  the  black  ? — A.  The  white  has  the  preference  sometimes  in 
wages. 

Q.  Which  does  he  prefer  to  have? — A.  I  believe  the  colored  men. 

Q.  He  would  not  turn  one  off  on  account  of  his  color? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  mean  that  a  white  carpenter,  then,  would  get  better  wages 
than  a  black  one?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  not  so  in  the  case  of  field  hands  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  the  black  people  get  better  wages  and  have  the  preference 
there? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  county  commissioner,  it  was  your  business  to  help  draw  the 
juries? — A.  YYs,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  colored  people  got  a  fair  showing  in  that  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
they  always  got  their  fair  proportion. 

Q.  Some  of  the  witnesses  say  that  many  times,  in  some  counties,  they 
did  not  get  their  fair  proportion. — A.  There  was  no  difference  in  our 
county.  The  tickets  were  put  in  one  box  and  drawn  by  a  small  boy  and 
put  over  in  another  one. 

Q.  In  putting  the  names  into  the  first  box,  the  law  prescribed  a  ccr- 
20  ex 


306 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


tain  character  as  to  education,  intelligence,  and  so  on,  for  a  juror  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  drawing  the  juries,  you  found  more  qualified  white  than 
black  men  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  when  you  found  a  colored  man  qualified,  there  was  no  discrim¬ 
ination  against  him  ? — A.  No,  sir;  not  when  I  was  there. 

Q.  And  you  were  county  commissioner  eight  years  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  mode  of  appointing  them  has  been  changed  now,  and  they  are 
selected  by  the  legislature  ? —  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Before  they  were  elected  by  the  people  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  it  is 
different  from  what  it  used  to  be. 

Q.  It  has  been  pretended  here  that  the  judges  don’t  act  fair,  and  that 
a  colored  man  is  convicted  quicker  than  a  white  man.  Do  you  know 
anything  about  that*? — A.  No,  sir;  1  don’t  know  of  anything  of  the 
kind.  There  are  some  people  who,  if  they  don’t  come  out  all  right,  will 
clamor  anyhow,  but  I  know  of  nothing  of  that  sort,  and  I  have  been 
about  the  court  house  most  of  the  time. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  more  white  men  get  off  than  colored  ? — A. 
Well,  the  colored  men  have  more  business  in  court  than  white  men. 

Q.  Suppose  you  would  put  six  white  men  and  six  colored  men  on 
trial  for  larceny,  would  the  wiiite  men  get  off  better  than  the  colored 
men  ? — A.  Well,  Sir,  I  have  seen  that  in  some  cases. 

Q.  Is  it  because  the  white  man  has  money  to  pay  a  lawyer,  and  is  a 
little  sharper  in  hiding  his  rascality  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  so  ;  for  you 
know  the  lawyer  works  for  money. 

Q.  And  the  colored  men  are  not  able  to  cover  up  their  rascality  ? — A. 

es,  sir  ;  and  generally  they  have  no  lawyers. 

Q.  Doesu’t  the  court  assign  counsel  to  them? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  think 
there  has  not  been  much  of  it  done  of  late. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  something  about  the  education  of  the  colored 
people — about  their  children.  What  chances  have  they  in  your  county 
to  educate  them? — A.  I  think  we  have  good  schools  going  on,  and  had 
them  all  the  time. 

Q.  As  good  as  the  whites? — A.  I  reckon  they  are. 

Q.  And  as  many  of  them  ? — A.  We  have  a  great  deal  more  in  our 
schools. 

Q.  You  have  more  schools  than  the  whites? — A.  Not  more  schools, 
but  more  children  in  them.  We  have  a  good  school  that  runs  five  or 
six  months  in  the  year. 

Q.  That  is  a  free  school  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  the  chances  for  the  higher  education  of  your  children  ? 
Are  there  any  colleges  for  colored  people  in  reach  of  your  town  ? — A. 
None  in  our  county. 

Q.  I  mean  in  your  end  of  the  State.  Are  there  any  schools  for  the 
education  of  teachers? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  a  very  fine  school  in  Greeusborough,  where  the  colored  people 
are  educated  in  the  higher  branches  free? — A.  Y"es,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  state  of  feeling  in  that  section  between  the  whites  and 
the  blacks? — A.  I  think  it  is  very  friendly. 

Q.  Yrou  have  no  disturbances  on  public  days,  such  as  election  days  ? — 
A.  No,  sir;  I  believe  everybody  votes  to  suit  himself. 

Q.  What  are  your  politics  ? — A.  I  am  a  Republican. 

Q.  Do  you  vote  that  ticket  every  time? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  formerly  a  slave  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Yrou  were  a  freeman  before  the  war? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  own  property  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  307 

Q.  How  much,  and  what  does  it  consist  of? — A.  Town  property  prin¬ 
cipally. 

Q.  Real  estate? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  made  it  since  the  war  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  most  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  serve  on  juries? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  a  judge  of  election  ? — A.  No,  sir, 

Q.  Do  yon  own  a  house  and  lot? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  own  a  right  smart 
of  houses.  My  renters  pay  me  between  tour  and  live  hundred  dollars  a 
year. 

Q.  Then  you  are  in  favor  of  the  landlord  and  tenant  act?  You  don’t 
think  a  fellow  ought  to  be  allowed  to  move  his  crops  off  the  premises 
until  he  pays  his  rent  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  don’t.  But  there  are  some  little 
restrictions  that  are  pretty  hard. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  How  far  is  Lenoir  County  from  Warren  ? — A.  1  think  180  miles. 

Q.  How  long  was  it  after  you  left  there  before  you  moved  to  the  one 
where  you  now  are? — A.  I  was  raised  there. 

Q.  You  always  lived  there  until  you  came  to  Lenoir? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  were  always  free? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Always  free? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  age  now? — A.  I  am  fortyr-seven  years  old. 

Q.  Were  you  always  free? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  born  free  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  your  parents  ever  slaves? — A.  No,  sir;  they  never  was. 
My  old  grandfather  was  a  hundred  and  five  years  old  when  he  died, 
and  was  always  free. 

Q.  Neither  you  or  any  of  your  ancestors  were  ever  slaves  in  this 
countrv? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  were  your  opportunities  for  education  before  the  war  ? — - 
A.  1  do  not  know,  sir.  Before  the  war  I  didn’t  know  much;  but  the 
free  colored  people  had  a  school  going  on  in  Raleigh. 

Q.  Yrou  said  you  were  a  county  commissioner;  where  did  you  find 
such  an  education  such  as  you  found  necessary  in  that  position  ? — A.  I 
just  picked  it  up.  I  never  went  to  school  a  day  in  my  life. 

Q.  You  found  time  to  study  and  pick  up  a  little  arithmetic? — A.  Yes, 
sir  ;  1  can  read  and  write. 

Q.  W’hat  have  been  your  duties  as  county  commissioner? — A.  Just 
what  the  others  on  the  board  had  to  do. 

Q.  What  are  the  duties  of  the  county  commissioners? — A.  Attending 
to  the  poor-house,  appointing  jurors,  and  looking  after  the  roads  and 
bridges. 

Q.  Did  they  have  anything  to  do  with  the  taxes? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  valuation  of  property,  and  the  assessment  of  taxes? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Who  collected  the  taxes? — A.  The  sheriff. 

Q.  Who  appointed  the  sheriff  ? — A.  He  was  elected  by  the  people. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  a  change  in  the  mode  of  appointing  county  commis¬ 
sioners.  Since  that  change  was  made  have  you  been  a  commissioner! 
— A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  there  been  any  colored  commissioners  since  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  commissioners  are  there  in  your  county  board? — A. 
There  are  five  and  they  are  all  white. 

Q.  How  was  it  before  this  change  ? — A.  Generally  there  were  about 
two  colored  and  three  white  commissioners. 

Q.  Is  that  a  Republican  county? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


308 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  What  are  the  politics  of  the  couuty  commissioners  now  ? — A.  They 
are  all  Democrats. 

Q.  How  does  that  happen  ? — A.  By  this  change  in  the  law. 

Q.  Do  you  imagine  that  change  in  the  law  was  made  to  secure  Dem¬ 
ocratic  county  commissioners  in  Republican  counties ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
think  so. 

Q.  Do  your  people  so  understand  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  no  Republican  officials  in  that  couuty  ? — A.  The  sheriff 
is  a  Republican  and  so  is  the  register. 

Q.  How  about  your  judges — those  who  try  causes? — A.  Of  the  infe¬ 
rior  courts,  do  you  mean  ? 

Q.  Take  the  judges  of  the  higher  courts  first,  for  instance  ? — A.  They 
are  elected. 

Q.  Elected  by  the  people? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  court  in  the  State? — A.  The  supreme  court. 

Q.  Is  that  the  one  you  refer  to? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  have  judges  of  the  inferior  courts,  also? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  a  county  court  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  class  of  cases  do  they  have  jurisdiction  over — crimiual 
cases  ? — A.  No,  sir,  I  think  not. 

Q.  [  mean  do  they  try  men  for  larceny,  and  all  that? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  mean  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  those  county  judges  elected  or  appointed  ? — A.  They  are  ap¬ 
pointed. 

Q.  How  was  it  before  this  change  in  the  constitution — were  they  ap¬ 
pointed,  or  chosen  by  the  people  ? — A.  They  were  elected. 

Q.  All  the  judges  were  then  elected  t — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Before  the  change  the  judges  of  the  higher  courts  had  jurisdiction 
in  all  cases?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  by  this  change  jurisdiction  in  these  smaller  crimes  is  given  to 
the  county  interior  courts? — A.  Yes,  sir.  * 

Q.  And  who  are  those  judges? — A.  They  are  Democrats. 

Q.  You  say  all  these  county  judges  are  Democrats  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  county  commissioners,  also? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  the  new  constitution  has  resulted  in  thus  changing  the 
political  control  of  these  Republican  counties? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  understand  that  wras  a  part  of  the  design  in  changing  the 
constitution? — A.  I  thiuk  it  was,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Lowery,  you  have  perhaps  not  visited  any  of  our  Northern 
States  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  do  not  know  the  chances  the  colored  man  has  there  for 
acquiring  an  education  and  exercising  all  his  civil  and  political  rights  ? 
— A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  know  that  it  is  not  an  advantage  to  your  people 
to  go  North  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  You  say  you  do  not  know  of  but  very  few  who  have  left  your 
county? — A.  No,  sir;  most  of  those  who  left  there  were  from  back  in 
the  country. 

Q.  You  live  in  town  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  in  a  thickly-settled  town? — A.  Yes,  sir :  it  is  the  county 
seat. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  the  colored  people  are  situated  out  in  the  country? 
Take  the  matter  of  public  schools — I  think  it  has  been  said  that  the 
country  people  do  not  have  as  much  chance  as  those  in  town  to  send 
their  children  to  school  ? — A.  I  thiuk  we  have  very  good  schools  all  over 
the  county.  I  have  seen  teachers  who  were  teaching  out  there. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


309 


Q.  Do  you  know  bow  long  tbe  schools  are  kept  open  in  the  country  ? 
— A.  Four  months,  I  believe.  In  town  we  have  them  longer.  1  think 
ours  in  our  town  run  ten  months.  Oat  in  the  country  I  think  they  run 
four  and  five  months. 

Q.  The  length  of  time  depends,  I  suppose,  upon  the  amount  of  prop¬ 
erty  to  support  them? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  the  number  of  children. 

Q.  How  many  colored  men  do  you  know  to  have  left  your  county? — 
A.  1  was  up  at  the  depot  one  day  and  I  saw  a  good  many  getting  oft; 
but  I  don’t  think  they  were  all  from  our  couuty. 

Q.  Do  you  think  there  are  twenty  five  who  have  gone? — A.  I  don’t 
think  many  over  twenty-five. 

Q.  About  how  many  did  you  see  getting  on  the  train  that  day  ? — A. 
I  could  not  say.  I  think  right  smart  of  them  were  from  Pitt  County. 
I  know  the  wagons  were  bringing  them  in  from  there.  I  just  went  up 
th^re  to  the  depot  and  I  saw  them  getting  off. 

Q.  You  mean  getting  ou  the  train? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  “getting  off'”  from  the  couutry  to  Indiana,  or  elsewhere? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Your  county  seems  to  be  a  Republican  county  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  a  majority  of  the  population  colored  ? — A.  I  think  it  is. 

Q.  How  is  the  colored  population  divided  politically  ? — A.  I  believe 
they  are  pretty  much  altogether  there. 

Q.  You  mean  all  Republicans  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  one  colored  mau  out  of  fifty  who  is  a  Democrat  ? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  one  out  of  a  hundred  ? — A.  I  suppose  you  might  get  that 
many. 

Q.  I  suppose  they  all  vote  for  Governor  Vance,  however? — A.  No, 
sir;  but  there  is  a  great  many  of  them  that  always  like  him.  While 
not  many  of  them  vote  for  him,  yet,  as  a  man,  they  like  him  pretty 
well. 

Q.  You  speak  in  your  testimony  here  of  the  condition  of  the  colored 
people  in  your  county  principally? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  do  not  claim  to  know  it  so  well  as  to  the  State  generally  ? — 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q  Is  it  or  is  it  nit  your  understanding  that  in  some  parts  of  the 
State  the  colored  people  have  been  subjected  to  hardships  and  cruel¬ 
ties,  and  have  some  causes  of  complaint  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  really.  I 
do  not  hear  much  complaint  of  them  being  oppressed.  Some  time  back 
there  was  talk  of  it ;  but  for  the  last  seven  or  eight  years  I  haven’t 
heard  any  of  it. 

Q.  Rut  yon  all  still  stick  to  the  Republican  party  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  From  what  part  of  the  State  is  this  exodus  most  numerous  ? — A. 
I  think  from  our  county,  and  from  Pitt  and  Wayne  and  Greene. 

Q.  Do  those  counties  all  lie  together? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  many  of  these  people  come  back  who  went  North  ? — A.  I 
have  heard  talk  of  several  coming  back,  and  a  great  many  writing  that 
they  want  to  come  back. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  any  of  the  letters  ? — A.  I  have ;  but  I  have  not  had 
any  myself. 

Q.  Have  you  known  of  any  political  characters,  or  of  any  men  who, 
so  far  as  y&u  know,  had  political  reasons  for  it,  going  through  your 
State  to  stir  up  this  emigration  to  the  North?  Do  you  know  anything 
of  its  being  a  Republican  movement? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  think  the  men  who 
did  it  did  it  for  their  own  benefit.  I  never  heard  anything  about  it  until 
I  heard  of  Perry  going  around  stirring  them  up. 


310 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Perry,  you  said,  was  from  your  county? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  not 
from  my  town. 

Q.  You  thiuk  it  was  a  business  enterprise? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  some  men  thought  they  could  make  money  out  of  it? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  Louis  Williams? — A.  I  do  not  know  of  him. 

Q.  He  was  one  of  the  colored  men  who  left  there. — A.  Those  who 
left  there  were  mostly  from  back  in  the  country,  and  I  did  not  know 
them.  There  were  none  who  left  the  town,  or  from  around  the  edges 
of  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Perry? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  does  he  stand  there  with  the  better  class  of  your  colored 
people? — A.  I  don’t  think  he  stands  so  well. 

Q.  The  suspicion  is  among  them  that  he  was  trying  to  make  money 
out  of  this  thing  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  colored  man  who  had  labored  and  made 
money  for  himself  who  went  off  in  this  exodus? — A.  I  heard  talk  of 
one  leaving;  but  he  never  sold  his  land.  I  reckon  he  just  went  to  look 
aud  see  for  himself,  and  come  back.  Vre  have  in  our  county  jail  now 
two  fellows  who  were  going  through  the  county  selling  tickets  for  the 
exodus. 

Q.  What  kind  of  tickets? — A.  Tickets  to  Indiana. 

Q.  What  right  did  they  have  to  sell  tickets  to  Indiana  ? — A.  None  at 
all.  They  went  out  into  the  back  country  aud  got  in  with  an  old  man 
out  there.  They  asked  him  if  he  wanted  to  go,  and  he  said,  “Yes”; 
and  they  sold  him  tickets  to  take  him  and  his  whole  family  to  Indiana 
for  a  dollar  apiece ;  but  he  found  out  that  the  tickets  were  not  good, 
and  he  came  to  town  aud  got  a  warrant  and  had  them  arrested. 

Q.  They  have  taken  a  homestead  in  jail  ? — A.  I  left  them  in  there. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  Do  you  keep  the  jail? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  LEWIS  H.  FISHER. 

I  Lewis  H.  Fisiier  (colored)  was  sworn  aud  examined  as  follows: 

By  Senator  Vance: 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside? — Answer.  At  Kinston,  Lenoir 
County. 

Q.  in  North  Carolina? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation  at  home? — A.  I  am  a  merchant. 

Q.  Do  you  own  property? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  and  of  what  kind  ? — A.  It  is  personal  property  and  real 
estate — farming  lands  and  town  lots. 

Q.  Do  you  farm  some,  also? — A.  I  rent  out  my  land  in  the  country. 
Q.  How  much  do  you  hold  your  property  to  be  worth  today? — A. 
Between  $4,000  and  $5,000. 

Q.  Were  you  formerly  a  slave? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  age? — A.  I  entered  my  thirty-second  year  last  Jan¬ 
uary. 

Q.  So  you  were  not  of  age  when  you  were  set  free? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  made  all  your  property  since  you  were  set  free  ? — A. 
Every  dollar  of  it. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


311 


Q.  What  is  your  politics?— A.  Republican,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  held  auv  offices  or  official  positions  in  your  county? — 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was  first  appointed  on  the  school  committee  in  laying 
off  the  districts  in  the  beginning.  After  that — holding  it  for  four  years — 
I  was  elected  coroner  and  held  it  two  terms,  or  four  years;  after  that  I 
was  appointed  county  ranger,  and  at  the  present  time  I  am  school  com¬ 
mitteeman  again. 

Q.  For  your  district,  or  the  county? — A.  For  the  ninth  district. 

Q.  Who  appointed  you  a  school  committeeman  ? — A.  I  was  appointed 
by  the  Democratic  board. 

Q.  The  board  of  county  commissioners? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  state,  if  you  know  anything,  what  you  know  about  these 
people  who  left  your  county  to  go  West? — A.  I  know  some  of  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  inducements  were  held  out  to  them  to  cause 
them  to  go? — A.  The  most  that  was  agitated  among  them  was  the  low 
wages  at  home  and  that  they  were  going  where  they  could  get  better 
ones.  That  was  what  they  most  seemed  to  talk  about. 

Q.  What  did  they  say  was  promised  them  ? — A.  They  were  informed 
that  they  could  get  $L  and  $1.25  per  day,  and  in  some  instances  $1.50 
per  day  ;  and  on  the  farms  could  get  $15  per  month. 

Q.  That  is  what  they  were  promised  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  was  said  to  them  about  transportation? — A.  I 
heard  that  after  they  got  to  Washington  they  were  to  get  free  trans¬ 
portation  ;  and  some  said  that  after  they  got  to  Goldsborough  there  was 
to  be  a  sort  of  free  train  that  would  carry  them  for  a  cent  a  mile. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  put  those  reports  out  among  them  ? — A.  I  think 
I  do. 

Q.  From  what  you  have  heard  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  a  society 
up  there  in  La  Grange  that  sent  Perry  to  Kansas  to  view  the  lands,  and 
lie  came  back  and  told  them  they  could  get  places  in  Indiana  and  do 
better  there. 

Q.  He  told  them  that  there  was  a  demand  for  them  out  there,  and 
that  they  could  get  these  prices  that  you  have  mentioned  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  of  those  circulars  that  were  distributed? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  some  of  them. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  the  promises  that  were  made  in  those  circulars? — 
A.  Some  portion  of  them,  but  I  do  not  recollect  all.  I  recollect  that  I 
saw  where  they  said  a  man  could  get  $15  a  mouth  and  a  cow - 

Q.  And  calf? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  a  dwelling  and  fire-wood.  All  who 
were  good  farmers  were  to  get  $15  a  month  and  those  other  things. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  chromos  or  pictures  of  the  kind  of  houses  they 
were  to  have  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not  see  any  pictures  of  houses. 

Q.  What  are  the  average  wages  of  those  kinds  of  hands  in  your 
country  ? — A.  Labor  runs  down  there  according  to  the  hands.  I  don’t 
know  of  any  lower  wages  than  $7  a  month  for  a  man.  They  run  from 
$7  to  $10,  and  in  some  cases,  on  account  of  skill,  very  good  hands 
get  $12. 

Q.  What  else  is  included  with  those  wages? — A.  House,  fire- wood, 
garden  patch,  and  sometimes  a  potato  patch. 

Q.  Is  there  any  stint  about  the  land  allowed  for  patches? — A.  No, 
sir,  l  don’t  believe  there  is. 

Q.  A  man  can  have  as  much  land  free  as  his  family  can  attend? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  now,  please  explain  the  situation  of  your  people  there  with 
regard  to  their  right  to  vote  and  the  exercise  of  their  legal  rights, 
whether  they  enjoy  them  or  not? — A.  Well,  sir.  I  think  they  vote  just 


312 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


as  they  please.  There  is  no  intimidation  there.  People  may  ask  them 
to  vote  this  or  that  way,  but  they  can  vote  as  they  please. 

Q.  You  mean  people  electioneer  with  them  the  same  as  they  do  with 
white  people? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  there  is  no  force  about  it. 

Q.  Is  there  any  restriction  put  upon  their  holding  public  meetings, 
religions,  political,  or  educational  ? — A.  No,  sir;  not  at  all. 

Q.  How  is  it  about  education  for  your  race  down  there? — A.  Well, 
sir,  we  have  a  ten  months’  system  there  at  this  time  and  the  county  is 
divided  up  into  districts,  and  as  a  general  thing  throughout  the  county 
they  have  four  and  five  months’  schools,  just  as  the  money  is.  Some¬ 
times  they  can’t  get  teachers  and  then  they  wait  until  the  next  session 
and  run  seven  or  eight  months. 

Q.  They  put  two  sessions  into  one  in  that  way  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  session  of  the  schools  out  in  the  county  ? — A. 
About  four  months. 

Q.  Are  the  school-houses  convenient  for  the  colored  children  out  there? 
— A.  Yes,  sir:  sometimes  they  have  to  go  three  or  three  and  a  half 
miles. 

Q.  The  colored  children  as  a  general  thing  attend  the  schools  more 
closely,  do  they  not? — A.  Yes,  sir,  to  the  public  schools ;  because  many 
of  the  white  people  won’t  send  their  children  to  the  public  schools.  They 
send  them  to  the  pay  schools. 

Q.  Private  schools,  you  mean  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  complaint  to  make  for  your  people  about  their  treat¬ 
ment  in  the  courts;  will  the  judges  there  do  them  justice? — A.  I  think 
whenever  parties  are  convicted  I  see  no  discrimination  on  the  part  of 
the  judges.  Sometimes  the  colored  people  do  not  get  their  cases  through 
as  well  as  they  would  if  they  had  money.  I  think  it  is  the  lack  of  money 
mostly  that  makes  them  lose  in  court. 

Q.  The  white  rascals,  you  think,  are  the  smartest  in  covering  up  their 
tracks  and  in  managing  their  cases? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  am  speaking  of  my 
county  and  that  is  the  way  of  it  there. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  and  as  au  honest  colored  man,  give  this  com¬ 
mittee  your  opinion  as  to  whether  au  honest,  industrious  colored  man 
can  do  as  well  iu  North  Oaraliua  as  anywhere  else  that  you  know  of. — 
A.  I  think  an  industrious,  sober  man  can  always  do  very  well  there. 
Some  advantage  is  sometimes  taken  of  ignorant  colored  men.  Some¬ 
times  they  buy  land  and  when  they  get  it  nearly  all  paid  for  and  go  to 
the  records  they  find  they  can  get  no  title  to  it. 

Q.  Isn’t  an  ignorant,  poor  white  man  in  the  same  predicament  often  ? 
— A.  Y"es,  sir;  they  are.  I  have  often  said  that  the  poor  whites  and  the 
poor  colored  people  were  all  in  the  same  dish. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  Do  you  not  punish  men  iu  North  Carolina  who  swindle  other  per* 
sous  by  void  titles? — A.  YYs,  sir;  but  then  every  man  who  buys  has 
the  privilege  to  go  and  see  to  his  titles  by  the  registry  of  deeds. 

Q.  Of  course,  I  understand  that,  but  what  I  wanted  to  know  is 
whether  instances  of  the  kind  you  mention  are  never  punished  in  North 
Carolina  ? — A.  I  haven’t  known  of  any.  They  always  bring  up  the  plea 
that  the  men  could  go  to  the  records  and  see  for  themselves. 

Q.  That  is  no  sufficient  reply  to  the  crime;  but  you  say  you  have 
never  known  any  man  to  be  punished  for  this  sort  of  imposition? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  instances  have  you  known  of  this  kind  ? — A.  I  know 
of  one  south  of  Kinston. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  colored  men  who  are  voters  are  also 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  313 

owners  of  land? — A.  I  think  the  majority  of  the  voters  with  us  are  col¬ 
ored. 

Q.  But  what  proportion,  how  many,  whether  one-tenth,  one  fourth,  or 
one-hundredth  of  those  who  have  the  right  to  vote  are  owners  of  land, 
or  have  homesteads? — A.  1  know  from  eight  to  fifteen  who  own  land 
in  our  county. 

Q.  How  many  do  you  know,  irrespective  of  whether  they  own  land,, 
are  voters  in  your  county  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir.  I  know  we  have  a 
majority  of  from  200  to  300. 

Q.  And  mostly  colored  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  more  than  fifteen  colored  men  who  own  land  in 
your  county  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  know  more  than  that  many. 

Q.  1  suppose  in  that  county  there  are  some  fifteen  or  twenty  thousand 
people?— A.  I  don’t  think  there  are  that  many. 

Q.  You  make  your  answer  about  voting  in  such  a  way  as  leads  me 
to  suppose  you  do  not  tell  all  about  it.  Is  there  anything  else,  about 
the  counting  of  the  votes  for  instance,  that  you  have  on  your  mind  ? — 
A.  No,  sir.  All  the  officers  that  we  are  allowed  to  vote  for  we  generally 
elect. 

Q.  What  officers  are  elected  iu  the  county  ? — A.  The  sheriff,  the  reg¬ 
ister  of  deeds  and  the  clerk  of  the  superior  court,  the  coroner,  and  1  be¬ 
lieve  we  all  go  for  the  surveyor,  Democrats  and  Republicans  alike.  The 
county  treasurer  is  also  elected. 

Q.  How  is  it  about  your  representatives  in  the  legislature  ?  IJow  are 
they  chosen  ? — A.  We  vote  for  them. 

Q.  You  choose  a  county  delegation  to  your  legislature? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
and  we  generally  elect  a  Republican. 

Q.  Don’t  you  elect  but  one  ? — A.  That  is  all. 

Q.  And  you  get  a  Republican? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  lie  chosen  for  one,- two,  or  four  years  ? — A.  For  two  years. 

Q.  Then  you  do  get  your  Republican  representative  ?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  other  officers  are  there  iu  the  county  ? — A.  The  magistrates 
we  do  not  vote  for. 

Q.  How  do  you  come  by  your  magistrates  ? — A.  They  are  appointed. 

Q.  How? — A.  By  the  legislature. 

Q.  Are  they  Republicans  or  Democrats  ? — A.  They  are  Democrats. 

Q.  What  are  the  other  officers  that  you  have? — A.  County  commis¬ 
sioners. 

Q.  They  are  appointed  in  the  same  way  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  others,  still  ? — A.  Judges  of  the  inferior  courts. 

Q.  How  do  you  come  by  them? — A.  Through  the  county  commis¬ 
sioners. 

Q.  Then  the  legislature  elects  the  commissioners,  and  they  appoint 
the  judges?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  it  comes  to  this,  that  Democrats  value  and  assess  property  for 
taxes,  and  that  the  laws  are  administered  by  Democrats,  and  the  only 
officers  you  Republicans  get  are  officers  who  simply  carry  out  the  direc¬ 
tions  of  the  Democratic  office-holders  ? — A.  That  is  so. 

Q.  And  that  in  a  county  that  is  largely  Republican? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So,  under  this  change,  it  does  not  make  much  difference  to  you 
whether  you  vote  or  not? — A.  No,  sir;  so  far  as  those  officers  are  con¬ 
cerned.  We  would  like  to  vote  for  all  our  officers  if  we  could  be  allowed 
to. 

Q.  Of  how  many  judges  does  the  supreme  court  consist  ? — A.  I  can’t 
say.  That  is  the  highest  court.  The  judges  of  the  superior  court,  we 
elect  them. 


314 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  How  are  they  elected  ? — A.  By  districts. 

Q.  Taking  the  State  together,  how  many  of  them  are  there  ? — A.  I 
disremember  whether  it  is  nine  or  not,  but  I  think  there  are  nine  judicial 
districts. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  of  them  are  Republicans  ? — A.  I  do  not 
know  but  one,  sir,  at  present. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  There  are  Seymour  and  Buckstone,  are  there  not? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
Seymour  is  in  there.  He  was  elected  in  our  district,  but  that  don’t  do 
us  much  good,  as  they  have  to  change  around. 

By  Senator  Blair: 

Q.  How  many  judges  do  you  say  comprise  the  supreme  court? — A. 
There  are  three  of  them,  I  think. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  And  they  are  elected? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  political  sentiments  of  the  supreme  court  ? — A. 
I  do  not. 

Q.  Jn  speaking  of  the  schools  you  said  something  about  private  schools 
and  that  many  white  men  will  not  send  their  children  to  the  public 
schools;  do  you  mean  to  say  there  is  any  prejudice  ou  the  part  of  these 
people  against  public  schools? — A.  I  suppose  it  is  because  they  think 
they  are  able  to  pay  for  their  children’s  schooling  and  so  send  to  them. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  The  private  schools  are  generally  better  than  the  public  schools  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  hence  are  preferred  by  those  who  can  afford  to  pay  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  the  way  of  it. 

On  motion  the  committee  stood  adjourned  to  Wednesday,  February 
11,  1880,  at  10  a.  m. 


THIRTEENTH  DAY. 

Washington,  Wednesday,  February  11,  1880. 

The  committee  met  at  10  a.  m.,  pursuant  to  its  order  of  adjournment, 
and  proceeded  with  the  taking  of  testimony. 

Present,  the  chairman  and  all  the  members  of  the  committee. 

TESTIMONY  OF  F.  B.  LOFTIN.  • 

F.  B.  Loftin  was  sworn  and  examined  as  follows : 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside? — Answer.  In  North  Carolina. 

Q.  What  is  the  place  of  your  residence  in  North  Carolina? — A.  My 
residence  is  in  Kinston,  Lenoir  County,  North  Caroliua. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation  ? — A.  I  am  an  attorney  at  law. 

Q.  What  counties  do  you  practice  in  ? — A.  In  the  counties  of  Lenoir, 
Greene,  and  Jones,  and  occasionally  in  Wayne  and  Craig. 

Q.  1  have  called  upon  you  to  testify  in  regard  to  the  treatment  of  the 
colored  people  in  the  circle  of  your  practice  in  the  courts.  You  have  had 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


315 


some  criminal  practice? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  bad,  since  I  have  been 
practicing,  quite  an  extensive  criminal  practice,  particularly  in  Jones 
and  Greene  Counties,  and  a  good  deal  of  opportunity  to  observe  the 
courts  there.  I  can  state  to  the  committee  that  so  far  as  I  have  been 
able  to  observe,  1  have  known  no  distinction  made  between  the -white 
and  colored  man.  We  have  gentlemen  of  learning  and  eminence  for 
judges,  and  who  administer  our  Jaw  impartially,  I  think,  between  the 
white  and  colored  man.  I  have  never  noticed  any  distinction  on  account 
of  race  or  color. 

Q.  Have  you  colored  men  on  the  juries  down  there  ? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
we  have.  They  are  permitted  to  sit  on  juries  without  any  discrimina¬ 
tion  whatever. 

Q.  It  has  been  said  here  that  more  white  men  than  colored  men  go 
free  in  proportion  to  the  number  indicted  for  offenses.  How  is  that? — 
A.  My  observation  is,  that  more  white  men  who  are  indicted  are  con¬ 
victed  than  colored  men.  I  have  noticed  that  where  a  white  man  is 
arraigned  for  larceny,  or  a  felony,  as  his  social  condition  is  more  affected 
than  the  negro’s,  and  I  think  the  juries  are  more  severe  on  them  than 
on  the  negroes.  1  remember  a  case  at  the  last  inferior  court,  where 
a  colored  man  appeared  for  a  colored  man,  and  the  argument  he  made 
to  the  jury  was  that  they  were  to  try  him  the  same  as  they  would  a 
white  man  ;  and  when  the  judge  came  to  charge  the  jury  he  reiterated 
that  part  of  the  counsel’s  argument,  and  said  they  were  to  liud  the  f.icts, 
and  try  him  by  the  same  rules  as  they  would  a  wlr.te  man. 

Q.  You  are  not  a  farmer  yourself,  but  your  father  is? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
he  is  a  tolerably  large  farmer.  He  owns  some  two  thousand  acres  ot 
land. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  farming  operations  in  that  section  as 
affecting  these  people? — A.  They  work  on  there  very  smoothly.  We 
have  had  no  trouble  with  them,  but  this  exodus  movement  is  affecting 
labor  with  my  father  some.  He  talks  over  his  business  to  me  and  tells 
me  about  it.  He  usually  makes  contracts  on  the  1st  of  January,  and 
this  January,  at  the  middle  of  the  month  he  had  not  rented  any  land  or 
made  a  contract.  He  ran  off  two  or  three  families  on  that  account  be¬ 
fore  lie  could  make  contracts  with  the  others. 

Q.  You  mean  he  made  them  leave  unless  they  would  make  contracts  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  whether  there  is  any  political  persecution,  violence, 
or  anything  of  that  kind  influencing  them  to  leave  there  ?— A.  I  have  no 
hesitancy  iu  saying  that  they  vote  just  as  freely  and  without  compulsion 
as  they  could  desire,  so  far  as  the  white  people  are  concerned.  They 
vote  very  nearly  the  same  way,  and  the  only  thing  I  have  seen  to  fore¬ 
stall  their  action  is  when  a  colored  man  tries  to  prevent  another  col¬ 
ored  man  from  voting. 

Q.  They  don’t  allow  him  to  vote  the  Democratic  ticket  ? — A.  No,  sir; 
they  don’t  respect  him  afterward,  if  he  does.  I  have  seen  violence  of 
fered  between  themselves,  but  have  seen  nobody  hurt.  I  know  my  father 
had  a  waiting  boy  and  I  had  a  very  particular  friend  who  was  running 
for  the  legislature  and  I  wanted  the  boy  to  vote  for  him.  He  said  be¬ 
fore  the  election  that  he  would  do  it,  but  on  the  day  of  the  election  he 
came  and  told  me  that  the  colored  people  were  all  mad  and  he  could 
not  doit.  I  said,  “All  right,”  and  he  voted  the  full  Republican  ticket. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  men  discharging  their  croppers  or  worknu  n 
for  not  voting  the  Democratic  ticket? — A.  No,  sir;  1  haven’t  heard  of 
any  case  of  that  kind.  When  politics  are  running  high  about  election 
time  they  talk  that  way — some  violent  men  do,  but  after  the  election  it 


316 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


all  passes  off.  I  will  cite  an  instance  in  our  town.  Our  barbers  are  all 
colored  men  and  vote  the  Republican  ticket.  We  were  trying  to  elect 
our  senator,  but  could  not  do  it.  Some  parties  got  angry  at  the  colored 
barbers  and  one  man  sent  oft'  after  a  white  barber.  One  came  there  and 
set  up,  but  pretty  soon  they  wouldn’t  patronize  him  and  he  had  to  leave. 

I  do  not  think  the  better  part  of  our  people  were  iu  favor  of  any  such 
move  as  that. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  To  what  extent  does  your  father  tell  you  this  disturbance  of  his 
labor  exists? — A.  It  is  very  general  among  his  hands. 

Q.  How  many  hands  does  he  employ? — A.  I  believe  he  works  a  four 
or  live  horse  farm — thirty  acres  to  the  horse  ;  I  know  he  works  that 
much. 

Q.  How  many  hands  would  that  require  ? — A.  From  seven  or  eight 
to  ten  hands. 

Q.  Theu  he  rents  some  of  his  land? — A.  Yes,  sir;  the  principal  por¬ 
tion  of  his  land  is  rented. 

Q.  And  this  disturbance  of  labor  exists  quite  generally  ? — A.  Among 
his  hands  it  is  very  general. 

Q.  You  know  of  no  reason  why  that  is  true  of  his  hands  more  than 
of  others? — A.  I  have  heard  of  others  in  the  same  fix. 

Q.  There  is  no  reason  why  your  father’s  hands  should  complain  more 
than  those  of  others? — A.  No,  sir;  but  I  think,  from  what  I  have 
heard,  they  were  pretty  generally  stirred  up  by  this  Indiana  movement. 

Q.  Is  the  movement  increasing  or  decreasing  ? — A.  It  is  very  gen¬ 
erally  passing  away. 

Q.  You  have  no  reason  to  think  it  will  be  in  existence  a  year  from 
now? — A.  I  think  not.  I  think  the  colored  people  in  our  county  are 
well  treated,  and  where  they  are  industrious  and  honest  they  accumu¬ 
late  something. 

Q.  Are  they  generally  well  satisfied  ? — A.  I  think  they  are,  or  were 
until  I  first  heard  of  this  movement  last  September. 

Q.  Have  you  come  in  contact  personally  with  any  of  the  negroes, 
and  learned  their  reasons  for  emigrating  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not  had 
one  of  them  to  tell  me. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  this  is  a  political  move  or  not  ;  whether 
the  Republican  party  down  there  has  encouraged  it? — A.  I  think  this 
movement  was  gotten  up  by  this  fellow  Perry  and  others.  He  is  a 
very  violent  Republican  down  there.  He  spoke  right  in  front  of  my 
office,  on  the  court-house  green,  and  told  the  colored  people  they  were, 
outraged  by  the  white  people  and  cheated  and  all  that. 

Q.  Do  you  think  he  was  talking  for  himself,  or  do  you  think  the  Re¬ 
publican  party  iu  North  Carolina  encouraged  this  movement? — A.  I 
do  not  know  of  anything  of  the  kind.  All  I  know  about  that  part  of  it 
I  got  from  newspapers. 

Q.  All  the  testimony  we  have  had  here  has  been  to  the  effect  that  the 
Republican  press  of  the  State  was  strongly  opposed  to  it. — A.  I  know 
the  white  Republicans  of  our  county  haven’t  favored  it-  The  white  men 
of  the  Republican  party  are  opposed  to  it. 

Q.  There  are  not  many  of  them  ? — A.  No,  sir;  our  sheriff  is  one  of 
the  leading  Republicans — James  K.  Davis.  There  are  also  W.  W. 
Hunter,  our  clerk,  and  our  register,  and  a  Republican  justice  of  the 
peace  by  the  name  of  Coleman. 

Q.  These  men  are  all  opposed  to  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  depend  upon  the  colored  Republicans  for  their  votes  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


317 


Q.  They  would  hardly  encourage  the  emigration  of  their  own  sup¬ 
porters,  would  they? — A.  Those  who  are  there  I  ain  satisfied  are 
against  it. 

Q.  Then  the  leading  Republicans,  white  and  black,  in  North  Carolina 
are  opposed  to  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  my  judgment. 

Q.  Can  you  mention  a  prominent  Republican,  white  or  colored,  who 
is  in  favor  of  the  exodus? — A.  Well,  I  can  mention  this  negro,  Perry. 

Q.  Do  you  look  upon  him  as  a  leading  Republican? — A.  Any  negro 
who  speaks  much  gets  to  be  a  leader  with  them. 

Q.  Do  you  recognize  him  as,  in  any  sense,  a  leader  of  Republican  sen 
timent? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Is  his  movement,  then,  a  political  one,  or  a  scheme  to  accumulate 
a  little  money  for  himself? — A.  I  think  his  principal  object  was  to  make 
money. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  way  in  which  he  is  aided  by  political  influence? 
— A.  No,  sir;  I  have  heard  that  the  railroads  pay  him  something,  and 
that  he  had  a  society  that  paid  him  something. 

Q.  I  meant  to  ask  you  whether  Perry  was  trying  to  promote  his  own 
interests  by  it,  pecuniarily  or  politically  ? — A.  Pecuniarily  ;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  \rou  spoke  of  some  case  in  court,  and  of  the  lawyer  cautioning  the 
jury  to  try  the  colored  man  by  the  same  rules  they  would  a  white  man, 
and  that  the  judge  reiterated  the  remark — how  was  that? — A.  Yes, 
sir ;  that  was  it. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  would  be  necessary  to  remind  them  of  that,  and 
ask  the  same  justice  for  him  as  for  a  white  man,  if  there  were  not  some 
prejudice  usually  among  juries  against  colored  men  on  trial  ? — A.  No, 
sir.  I  think  that  was  a  case  of  overzeal  on  the  part  of  his  counsel. 

Q.  And  the  court  in  its  overzeal  reiterated  it? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  think 
it  was  unnecessary  for  counsel  to  have  made  it. 

Q.  Why,  then,  were  you  particular  to  remark  that  the  judge  repeated 
it? — A.  I  made  that  remark  to  show  that  our  courts  eudeavor  to  pre¬ 
vent  any  differences  between  white  men  and  colored  men. 

Q.  Then  it  was  a  sort  of  vague  sentimental  statement  of  an  abstrac¬ 
tion  ? — A.  lres,  sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  J.  H.  RUSSELL. 

J.  H.  Russell  was  sworn  and  examined,  as  follows : 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Mr.  Russell,  where  do  you  live? — Answer.  Indianapolis, 
Indiana. 

Q.  What  business  are  you  engaged  in  ? — A.  In  the  undertaking  and 
livery  business,  and  running  a  hack  and  transfer  line. 

Q,  You  are  in  the  “  undertaking  71  business — that  is,  you  bury  people? 
— A.  \res,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  you  live  at  Indianapolis,  and  are  an  undertaker  by  occupa¬ 
tion  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  state  to  this  committee  about  how  many  of  these 
North  Carolina  emigrants  you  have  buried  since  they  commenced  com¬ 
ing  there  to  Indianapolis? — A.  Up  to  the  28th  of  January,  I  think  we 
buried  from  twenty -five  to  thirty. 

Q.  What  were  they;  men,  women,  and  children? — A.  Mixed;  some 
men  and  some  women  and  children,  but  mostly  children. 

Q.  In  what  space  of  time  did  you  bury  twenty-five  or  thirty  ? — A. 


318 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


From  the  time  my  attention  was  first  called  to  it — say  seven  weeks  to 
two  months — the  1st  of  December  to  the  28th  of  January. 

Q.  in  two  months  you  buried  this  number"? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  this  undertaking  business? — A. 
About  twenty  months. 

Q.  Supposing  there  were  one  thousand  to  twelve  hundred  of  these 
people  who  remained  in  Indianapolis,  would  that  be  an  ordinary  or  un¬ 
usual  per  cent,  of  mortality  for  that  time  ? — A.  It  would  bean  unusual 
mortality  among  that  number  of  people. 

Q.  Wh  it  is  the  average  in  your  city? — A.  We  have  oue  hundred  and 
seven  thousand  (107,000)  population,  and  our  average  death  rate  is 
twenty  seven  (27)  a  week. 

Q.  State  whether  Marion  County,  in  which  Indianapolis  is  located,  em¬ 
ploys  a  county  undertaker  to  bury  the  poor,  charging  the  expense  to  the 
public  ? — A.  That  is  the  contract ;  we  have  it. 

Q.  You  are  county  undertaker? — A.  County  and  city  both. 

Q.  How  many  of  these  North  Carolina  folks  did  you  bury  as  paupers? 
— A.  Every  one  of  them. 

Q.  They  were  all  buried  as  paupers? — A.  Yes,  sir;  every  one. 

Q.  Were  they  charged  to  the  charity  of  the  city  or  the  county? — A. 
Of  the  county.  The  city  only  pays  for  those  dying  in  the  hospital  and 
the  station-houses.  The  county  pays  where  they  die  otherwise,  and  in 
public  institutions. 

Q.  What  is  the  expense  of  burying  one  of  these  paupers  ? — A.  Five 
dollars  and  fifteen  cents — grave  and  everything. 

Q.  Is  that  cheap  or  not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  very.  They  get  no  carriage 
or  hearse  ;  nothing  but  a  plain  box. 

Q.  And  have  no  religious  services? — A.  No,  sir;  unless  it  is  before 
we  take  the  box  there.  That  is  the  general  way. 

Q.  What  were  the  causes  of  the  deaths  of  these  people? — A.  Diph¬ 
theria  and  scarlet  fever  principally.  Their  difficulty  was  in  not  being 
acclimated.  Some  of  them  died  with  pneumonia. 

Q.  What  was  the  condition,  generally,  of  these  people  ? — A.  I  did  not 
go  mysell;  but  my  men  reported  each  family. 

Q.  What  opinion  of  them  did  you  derive  from  the  reports? — A.  They 
reported  it  bad  in  most  every  case.  In  some  houses  with  only  two  or 
three  rooms,  there  were  ten  or  fifteen  people  together.  They  have  no 
furniture  and  make  their  scanty  beds  on  the  floor,  and  all  their  general 
surroundings  indicate  poverty.  One  case  of  death  in  the  southern  part 
of  the  city  occurred  along  in  January.  A  family  of  nine — seven  children 
and  man  and  wife — had  nothing  at  all  except  a  pile  of  straw  in  a  corner 
and  one  old  comfort  to  cover  them.  One  of  the  children  was  taken  sick 
and  died  before  they  let  it  be  known. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  this  as  a  report  from  your  men  ? — A.  Yres,  sir  ;  and 
I  afterwards  went  down  myself  to  see  the  destitution  of  those  people. 

Q.  Did  you  take  some  steps  to  help  them? — A.  Yes,  sir;  we  did. 

Q.  You  are  a  Democrat? — A.  I  am  not  radical  in  any  way.  If  I  have 
any  special  friend  in  any  way  I  vote  for  him,  but  I  generally  vote  the 
Democratic  ticket. 

Q.  What  is  your  firm  ? — A.  It  is  under  the  name  of  J.  H,  Eussell 
&  (Jo. 

Q.  You  are  pretty  well  mixed  in  politics? — A.  No,  sir;  not  particu¬ 
larly. 

Q.  What  do  think  of  there  being  a  demand  out  there  for  these  sort  of 
people  ? — A.  There  is  none  whatever. 

Q.  Doesn’t  it  seem  to  you,  with  your  knowledge  of  their  condition,  a 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  319 

shame  and  an  outrage  to  encourage  them  to  come  out  there? — A.  Yes, 
sir  :  not  only  upon  them,  but  upon  the  people — the  tax  payers. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a  great  outrage  upon  the  poor  negroes? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a  fact  that  there  has  been  a  large  number  ot  idle  people  in 
our  State  and  actual  suffering  among  them  for  want  of  employmeut  dur¬ 
ing  several  years  past? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  old  residents,  too. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  true  that  men  in  all  kinds  of  business,  even  now,  are  being 
constantly  applied  to  for  work  ? — A.  There  is  a  surplus  of  labor  in  Marion 
County  at  all  seasons  of  the  year. 

Q.  And  you  know  of  no  demand  for  farm  labor? — A.  Farmers  com¬ 
plain  of  being  applied  to  too  much  and  of  having  to  keep  and  feed  men 
who  come  destitute  and  asking  for  work. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  I  suppose  you  find  the  mortality  in  Indianapolis  usually  larger 
among  poor  people  than  others  in  the  winter  season? — A.  Not  in  those 
months  I  mentioned. 

Q.  In  what  months  do  you  have  the  most  deaths? — A.  We  usually 
have  them  in  June,  July,  and  August,  and  in  October  and  November. 

Q.  What  are  the  causes? — A.  They  are  the  changes  of  the  weather 
at  that  time  of  the  year. 

Q.  Have  you  a  poorer  class  there  who  are  subject  to  more  deaths  in 
the  winter  than  another? — A.  The  winter  and  poverty  might  increase 
the  rate  a  little. 

Q.  There  is  such  a  class  there  as  I  have  spoken  of  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  cold  and  hunger  tend  to  increase  the  death  rate? 
— A.  My  experience  is  that  we  have  a  larger  death  rate  at  other  seasons 
of  the  year. 

Q.  Taking  the  poor- — the  paupers — don’t  you  think  the  mortality  is 
greater  with  that  class  in  the  winter  time? — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  had  the 
contract  for  two  years  and  I  know  our  bills  run  up  to  larger  amounts  in 
the  summer  time. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  true  that  the  mortality  is  greater,  as  a  rule,  among  the  poor 
and  destitute  than  among  the  well-to-do  people  who  are  able  to  attend 
to  their  sanitary  condition  and  have  physicians  ? — A.  Those  things  might 
have  effect  upon  the  number. 

Q.  So  you  would  expect  to  find  amoug  the  poorer  classes  a  greater 
number  of  deaths  at  any  season? — A.  Yes,  sir;  in  proportion. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  buried  twenty -five  or  thirty  of  these  immigrants? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  the  full  number  who  have  died  ? — A.  I  said  since  my  atten¬ 
tion  was  first  called  to  the  fact  by  my  men  that  they  were  immigrants 
we  were  burying. 

Q.  Perhaps  they  mentioned  it  about  the  first  case  they  had? — A.  No, 
sir;  not  the  very  first,  probably. 

Q.  You  do  not  suppose  there  were  many  more  than  twenty-five? — A. 
There  might  have  been  three  or  four  more. 

Q.  Possibly  thirty,  in  all  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I)o  you  know  how  many  emigrants  came  to  Indiana  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  There  were  a  good  many  women  and  children  among  them? — A. 
lres,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  were  all  poor? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  come  as  laborers  in  search  of  wTork  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  any  of  them  distributed  amoug  the  farmers? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
there  are  a  great  many  of  them  distributed. 

Q.  Do  you  kuowT  how  they  are  doing — those  who  got  work? — A.  We 


320 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


get  reports  that  they  are  not  doing  very  much.  The  people  do  not  like 
them  as  laborers. 

Q.  Then  Perry  is  about  right  when  he  thinks,  for  the  negroes  u  Indi¬ 
ana  is  worse  than  hell” — or  words  to  that  effect! — A.  No,  sir;  we  don’t 
think  so. 

Q.  Haven’t  yon  heard  that  they  find  Indiana  that  sort  of  locality  that 
Perry  thinks  it  to  be! — A.  No,  sir.  Those  who  came  there  expected  to 
find  something  great  ready  for  them  and  were  disappointed. 

Q.  They  have  been  badly  disappointed! — A.  Yes,  sir.  We  have  plenty 
of  men  out  there  and  no  work  for  them. 

Q.  Do  you  find  a  general  desire  among  them  to  get  back  ! — A.  A  great 
many  do,  for  the  reason  that  they  have  been  deceived  in  being  brought 
there. 

Q.  Is  there  any  general  desire  among  the  people  to  have  this  immi¬ 
gration  increase! — A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not,  outside  of  the  politicians. 

Q.  Who  of  the  politicians  do  you  think  are  at  the  bottom  of  it  ! — A.  I 
think  such  men  as  John  C.  New  and  Martiudale. 

Q.  They  are  leaders  of  the  Republican  party  ! — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  they 
stay  in  the  background  and  use  “  Cy  ”  Reynolds  as  a  tool. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that! — A.  From  conversations  I  have  heard. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  Mr.  New  say  anything  about  it! — A.  No,  sir;  I 
have  not  talked  to  him  personally. 

Q.  What  is  the  effect  of  this  movement  on  public  sentiment? — A. 
The  public  are  against  it,  because  these  people  are  poor  and  have  to  live 
on  the  charity  of  the  county. 

Q.  Yrou  think  Mr.  New  would  incur  trouble  with  his  party  by  doing 
this  thing? — A.  Not  if  he  could  stay  in  the  background  like  he  has. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  the  Republicans  will  find  it  out  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  not 
generally.  I  think  some  of  them  do  know  it,  but  have  not  the  power  to 
stop  it. 

Q.  Who  have  not? — A.  Those  Republicans  who  are  in  active  life. 

Q.  Nevertheless,  you  think  they  will  resent  it  ? — A.  I  think  they  will. 

Q.  You  think  he  would  do  that  knowing  he  would  lose  votes  to  his 
party  ? — A.  I  think  he  would. 

Q.  Then  you  think  he  is  making  a  brilliant  fool  of  himself? — A.  I  do 
not  know  as  to  that. 

Q.  You  are  a  Democrat? — A.  I  am  not  a  Radical. 

Q.  The  Democrats  are  anxious  that  he  should  go  on  and  do  this  thing  ? 
— A.  No,  sir  ;  we  are  not. 

Q.  Yours  is  a  pretty  close  State? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  close  and  severe  political  fights  there? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  it  is  possible  if  the  Democrats  saw  New  and  other 
leading  Republicans  doing  things  to  injure  their  party  these  Democrats 
would  want  it  done  ? — A.  If  it  was  a  general  thing  it  might  do,  but  it  is 
only  done  in  certaiu  localities. 

Q.  Rut  they  are  anxious  for  it  if  it  can  be  pretty  well  known  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir ;  I  think  so. 

Q.  And  you  think  this  movement  is  going  to  hurt  the  Republican 
party  ? — A.  YYs,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  the  Democrats  are  willing  to  see  the  Republican 
party  injured? — A.  Well,  sir,  we  don’t  like  to  have  these  people  there  on 
any  terms. 

Q.  You  have  been  paid  over  one  hundred  dollars  for  burying  these 
people  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  about  that. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  are  generally  earning  a  living?— A.  No,  sir;  I 
do  not  think  they  could  live  there  at  the  wages  they  would  receive. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  321 

They  can  live  down  South  where  the  people  understand  them  and  live 
much  better. 

Q.  Well,  as  I  understand  you,  here  is  a  movement  that  is  directly  to 
the  injury  of  the  Republican  party,  and  yet  you  Democrats  are  opposed 
to  it? — A.  My  idea  is  that  the  Democratic  party  is  opposing  it  because 
it  is  to  the  injury  of  the  tax  payers. 

Q.  Don’t  they  want  it  kept  up  to  injure  the  Republican  party? — A. 
No,  sir  ;  I  don’t  think  so. 

Q.  They  do  not? — A.  No,  sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  SCOTT  RAY. 

Scott  Ray  was  sworn,  and  testified  as  follows: 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside? — Answer.  Shelbyville,  Ind. 

Q.  What  is  your  profession  ? — A.  I  am  a  lawyer,  and  editor  of  the 
Shel by  Democrat- V olunteer. 

Q.  Mr.  Ray,  you  may  state  to  this  committee  whether  you  know  of 
any  North  Carolina  emigrants  coming  into  your  county  recently,  under 
this  emigration  movement  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  some  time  this  winter  there 
was,  I  presume,  25  or  30  that  came  into  Shelbyville. 

Q.  Are  you  advised  of  the  purpose  of  this  emigration,  any  further 
than  their  coming  to  your  county  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  caunot  say  that  I  am 
directly. 

Q.  State  what  demand  is  there  for  the  labor  of  these  emigrants. — A. 
I  think  there  is  no  demand  there  at  all,  for  I  think  we  have  enough 
laborers  there  to  supply  all  the  demand — more,  iu  fact,  than  is  necessary 
to  supply  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  condition  and  the  employment  of  these  emigrants 
at  the  time  you  came  away  from  home? — A.  The  last  I  heard  from  them 
they  were  huddled  together  in  a  little  hut  on  the  side  of  the  city,  and 
living  on  the  charity  of  the  people,  out  of  wood  and  with  very  little  to 
eat. 

Q.  How  many  were  in  that  house,  did  you  understand? — A.  I  think 
all  were  there,  or  nearly  all. 

Q.  Nearly  all  the  25  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  rooms  were  in  that  house  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir  ;  it 
is  a  little  cabin,  and  1  think  it  has  only  one  room. 

Q.  How  are  they  being  taken  care  of  ? — A.  I  think  they  were  on  the 
charity  of  the  people  there. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  that  sort  which  depends  upon  individual  giving  or 
upon  public  charity  ? — A.  Individual  charity. 

Q.  Then  there  has  been  no  official  charity  extended  to  them  yet  ? — 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Those  sort  of  people  generally  get  into  the  poor-house,  do  they 
not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  the  result,  1  believe,  generally. 

Q.  Under  the  laws  of  Indiana  there  is  a  couuty  poor-house  in  each 
county,  is  there  not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  those  who  cannot  find  employment,  and  have  nothing  to 
live  on,  can  go? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  people  are  those  ? — A.  I  think  they  are  all  women 
and  children,  except  lour  or  five. 

Q.  Have  the  men  got  employment  ?— A.  They  are  trying  to  get  em- 
21  EX 


322 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


ployment  about  the  town  at  sawing  wood  and  doing  the  best  they  can 
at  odd  jobs. 

Q.  Before  these  people  came  was  there  any  symptom  or  any  talk  of 
any  movement  to  invite  them  to  come  to  your  place  ? — A.  No,  sir;  there 
was  no  invitation  from  anyone  in  our  town. 

Q.  Is  there  a  Republican  newspaper  in  your  place? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  it  called? — A.  The  Republican. 

Q.  Has  it  discouraged  their  coming  ?■ — A.  No,  sir;  but  rather  encour¬ 
aged  it  by  holding  out  the  impression  that  there  was  plenty  of  work  to 
do,  and  all  that. 

Q.  Mr.  Ray,  have  you  ever  had  any  conversation  with  or  heard  him 
say  anything  about  this  matter — I  mean  the  chairman  of  the  Republican 
County  Committee  of  Shelby  County? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  had  a  conversa¬ 
tion  with  Captain  Byers.  He  has  been  the  chairman  of  the  Republican 
county  committee  until  within  the  last  few  days. 

Q.  What  is  his  name? — A.  Captain  Henry  S.  Byers. 

Q.  You  say  he  has  been,  up  to  within  a  lew  days,  the  chairman  of  the 
Republican  county  committee? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  State  what  conversation  >  ou  had  with  him  on  the  subject.— -A.  I 
had  a  conversation  witli  him  that  day,  which  I  reduced  afterward  to 
writing  that  same  evening. 

Q.  Have  you  it  with  you  ? — A.  I  believe  I  have. 

Q.  AYill  you  please  produce  it? 

| The  witness  produced  a  paper.] 

The  Chairman.  If  you  wish  it,  you  can  give  it  to  the  committee  in 
the  form  as  you  have  it  there.  Was  he  at  that  time  the  chairman  of 
the  county  Republican  committee  ? 

The  Witness.  I  think  they  had  appointed  his  successor  on  the  Friday 
previous,  and  this  was  on  the  following  Sunday  evening. 

Q.  Captain  Byers  is  a  man  of  character  and  respectability,  is  he  not? 
— A.  Yes  ;  he  is  one  of  the  leading  Republicans  of  our  county,  and  very 
generally  esteemed. 

Q„  What  is  his  age  ? — A.  I  suppose  38  years. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  hold  any  official  position  in  your  county  ? — A.  No,  sir  ; 
not  in  our  county. 

Q.  It  is  rather  difficult  for  a  Republican  to  hold  office  in  your  county, 
is  it  not? — A.  Yes,  sir;  our  county  is  pretty  solidly  Democratic. 

Q.  Now,  will  you  please  read  that  paper. 

The  witness  read  the  paper  as  follows: 

“I  had  a  conversation  with  Captain  Henry  S.  Byers,  ex  chairman  of 
the  Republican  Central  Committee  of  Shelby  County,  lud.,  on  Sunday 
night,  January  25,  1880,  in  the  city  of  Shelbyville,  in  the  presence  of 
Edward  Small  and  George  M.  Colliding,  two  of  the  leading  merchants 
of  the  city,  in  which  Mr.  Byers  said  :  4  There  is  no  disguising  the  fact, 
Ray  ;  the  exodus  movement  of  the  colored  men  to  Indiana  is  a  political 
movement  of  the  Republican  party,  as  1  know  it  to  be  a  fact.  We  in¬ 
tend  to  carry  Indiana  with  the  aid  of  the  negro  vote,  and  if  the  Repub¬ 
lican  party  had  taken  my  advice  six  years  ago,  they  would  have  set  the 
movement  on  foot  and  brought  them  here  long  ago.  We  intend  to 
bring  8,000  of  them  into  the  State  in  time  for  them  to  vote  this  fall,  and 
will  place  them  in  the  close  congressional  districts  and  into  the  close 
couuties  of  Indiana.  While  it  is  rather  expensive,  it  is  cheaper  for  the 
party  than  to  be  compelled  to  buy  votes  on  the  day  of  election,  as  we 
have  always  had  to  do.’  I  asked  him  if  we  was  in  a  position  to  know 
whether  it  was  an  organized  effort  on  the  part  of  the  Republican  man¬ 
agers  to  bring  them  into  the  State  for  political  purposes,  and  he  said  he 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


323 


was,  and  then  produced  a  letter  with  the  heading  of  the  Republican 
State  central  committee  printed  upon  it,  but  refused  to  read  its  contents. 
I  asked  him  if  he  had  contributed  any  money  for  the  purpose  of  bring¬ 
ing  the  negroes  who  had  lately  come  into  Shelby  County,  and  he  replied  : 

4  Yes  ;  I  contributed  all  I  was  able  to  contribute.’  Mr.  Byers  for  several 
years  has  been  one  of  the  leading  Republicans  in  Shelby  County,  and 
for  several  years  has  been  its  chairmen.” 

Q.  Who  was  that  made  in  the  presence  of,  what  parties  ? — A.  Mr. 
George  W.  Goulding,  a  leading  clothing  merchant  in  our  town,  and  Mr. 
Edward  Small. 

Q.  What  is  Small’s  occupation  ? — A.  lie  is  a  confectioner,  and  sells 
newspapers  and  cigars,  and  has  been  there  for  a  number  of  years.  Both 
of  them  are  men  of  high  character  and  standing. 

Q.  You  say  that  Captain  Byers  produced  a  paper  with  the  State  cen¬ 
tral  committee’s  printed  heading  on  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  of  the  letter  did  you  see  ? — A.  No  more  than  the  head¬ 
ing.  When  I  asked  him  if  he  was  in  a  position  to  know  whether  this 
was  a  Republican  movement  or  not,  he  pulled  the  letter  out  and  showed 
it  to  me,  but  he  did  not  let  me  see  the  contents  of  it. 

Q.  But  he  was  thereby  making  the  impression  upon  you  that  he  was  in 
communication  with  headquarters  upon  this  subject  ? — A.  That  was  the 
impression  I  thought  he  intended  to  convey. 

Q.  How  far  is  Shelbyville  from  Indianapolis? — A.  Twenty-five  miles. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  the  object  of  the  coming  of  those  negroes  to 
Shelbyville? — A.  When  those  negroes  came  to  Shelbyville  I  met  one  of 
them,  and  he  had  a  card,  or  a  little  slip  of  paper,  with  the  name  of  a 
prominent  Republican  upon  it. 

Q.  Who  was  that  ? — A.  George  M.  Wright. 

Q.  Where  did  this  negro  tell  you  he  came  from? — A.  From  North 
Carolina. 

Q.  Where  did  he  tell  you  he  got  Mr.  Wright’s  name  from  ? — A.  He 
did  not  tell  me. 

Q.  He  came  with  this  party  of  emigrants,  did  he  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  with  any  of  them  besides  him  ? — A.  Yes,  s:r ;  I  had 
a  talk  with  some  of  the  women  the  same  day  they  got  there. 

Q.  What  is  this  about  a  mob  or  a  riot  in  your  town  that  we  have  heard 
of?  There  has  been  some  talk  here  about  it. — A.  I  was  not  there  myself, 
but  I  took  occasion  to  inform  myself  concerning  it,  and  I  ascertained  that 
there  was  no  mob  and  no  riot,  but  there  had  been  some  outrages,  and 
sensational  reports  had  been  sent  to  the  Cincinnati  Gazette  and  Indian¬ 
apolis  Journal  concerning  an  alleged  mob  in  Shelbyville  ;  I  suppose  sent 
there  for  political  effect. 

Q.  But  there  was,  however,  a  strong  feeling  in  the  community  against 
the  coming  of  these  emigrants? — A.  Yes,  sir  •  but  it  did  not  break  out 
in  the  form  of  mobs  or  any  other  violence. 

By  Senator  Blair: 

Q.  So  you  think  the  negro  can  go  to  Indiana  and  exercise  his  politi¬ 
cal  rights  without  being  subjected  to  mob  violence  and  the  interference 
of  the  ku-klux  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  do. 

Q.  Indiana  is  better  in  that  respect  for  them  than  some  parts  of  the 
South  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  as  to  that. 

Q.  It  is  a  fact,  though,  that  the  negro  can  go  there  and  exercise  his 
political  rights? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  to  this  alleged  riot,  as  you  term  it,  in  your  town,  Mr.  Ray, 
please  state  what  the  circumstances  were  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  after  this  first 


324 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


batch  of  negroes  arrived  at  Shelbyville,  word  reached  the  city  by  tele¬ 
graph  from  Cincinnati,  that  there  was  another  car  load  coining  to  Shel¬ 
byville.  Our  folks  were  very  indignant  about  it,  and  quite  a  number, 
probably  25  or  more,  went  down  to  the  depot  to  see  who  were  coming, 
and  how  many  got  off  at  Shelbyville.  That  was  the  extent,  and  that 
was  their  intent,  as  I  understand  it. 

Q.  From  whom  did  you  understand  it?— A.  That  was  the  information 
which  I  gathered  from  parties  who  were  there,  and  who  composed  some 
of  the  best  citizens  of  the  place. 

Q.  And  that  you  understood  was  the  whole  extent  of  their  actions? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  any  negroes  come  at  that  time  ? — A.  I  think  there  were  some 
who  passed  through,  but  they  did  not  stop  ;  they  were  checked  through 
to  Indianapolis. 

Q.  There  was  no  intention,  then,  among  them  to  stop  there? — A.  No, 
sir;  I  think  not. 

Q.  But  the  train  stopped  there,  did  it  not? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  these  15  or  20  citizens  go  in  and  look  over  these  emigrants  in 
the  train  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not. 

Q.  They  simply  went  there  and  looked  over  the  train,  and  stood 
around  like  other  people? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  was  not  a  very  serious  matter  after  all  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  sav  that  there  was  15  or  20  of  them  that  went  down  there  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  and  among  them  were  some  very  respectable  people. 

Q.  You  have  with  you  here  a  written  conversation  between  yourself 
and  Captain  Byers? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  1  see  that  it  is  a  very  recent  date,  the  25th  of  January  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  It  is  pretty  generally  known  out  there  that  this  investigation  is  go¬ 
ing  on  here  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  a  matter  of  common  knowledge  to  your  people  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  know  that  Captain  Byers  knows  about  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
1  suppose  so. 

Q.  And  he  knows  that  it  has  been  charged  here  that  this  is  a  Repub- 
can  movement  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  if  he  has  been  reading  the  newspapers,  I 
suppose  he  does. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  such  facts  as  he  told  in  that  conversation  would, 
if  generally  diffused  through  Indiana,  help  the  Republican  party  very 
considerably  ?  If  it  were  known  that  the  Republican  party  as  indi¬ 
vidual  politicians,  or  as  a  party,  were  raising  money  to  bring  colored 
people  there  to  carry  the  State  and  swamp  the  Democratic  party,  what 
tendency  do  you  think  that  information  would  have  upon  the  prospects 
of  the  Republican  party  generally? — A.  I  think  it  would  have  a  ten¬ 
dency  to  hurt  the  party. 

Q.  And  especially  when  he  can  claim  these  people  are  poor,  and  not 
only  curse  citizens  by  coming,  but  curse  the  State? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they 
are  no  benefit  to  the  State. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Ray,  as  an  intelligent  man,  do  you  think  that  Captain 
Byers  would  communicate  to  you  facts  like  these,  knowing  you  to  be  a 
Democrat  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  the  captain  is  a  very  frank  man,  and  he  often 
puts  me  in  possession  of  facts  about  his  party  which  I  otherwise  could 
not  obtain.  He  has  frequently  given  me  information  of  that  kind. 

Q.  Did  you  think,  at  the  time  you  had  this  conversation,  that  you 
were  going  up  as  a  witness  before  this  committee  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  thought  you  would  talk  with  him,  and  hear  what  he  had 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  325 

to  say  ? — A.  I  thought  I  would  talk  to  him,  and  if  he  said  anything  that 
I  thought  important  I  would  use  it. 

Q.  And  you  secured  that  conversation  and  committed  it  to  paper  for 
use  before  this  committee. 

The  Chairman.  1  wish  to  state  here  that  I  did  not  know  anything  of 
the  paper  whatever. 

The  Witness.  No,  sir;  I  never  showed  it  to  you. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  I  see  from  your  statement  that  this  man  says  they  were  going  to 
introduce  8,000  negroes  into  the  State  before  the  next  election  ;  now, 
how  long  a  residence  has  a  man  got  to  have  before  he  votes  in  Indiana  ? 
— A.  Six  mouths. 

Q.  The  election  is  to  occur  next  November  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  do  you  believe,  as  an  intelligent  man,  that  they  are  coming 
there  ? — A.  I  do.  There  are  2,000  or  3,000  there  now. 

Q.  Not  all  voters,  are  they  ? — A.  No,  sir;  they  are  not  all  voters. 

Q.  Perhaps  three-fourths  of  them  are  women  and  children,  are  they 
not*? — A.  No,  sir;  I  think  probably  two  thirds. 

Q.  Tlie  great  mass  of  them,  then,  do  not  come  there  for  the  purpose  of 
voting  ? — A.  Of  course,  the  women  and  children  cannot  vote. 

Q  Now,  if  the  Republicans  ever  intend  getting  control  of  the  State, 
don’t  you  think  they  are  acting  very  foolish  to  bring  in  three  persons 
who  are  not  voters  in  order  to  get  one  who  can  vote  ? — A.  I  do  not  think 
the  original  intention  was  to  bring  these  women  into  the  State.  I  think 
they  thought  they  would  bring  in  the  men,  and  it  has  siuce  turned  out 
that  the  men  would  not  come  unless  the  women  and  children  accompa¬ 
nied  them. 

Q.  And  you  think  that  they  are  really  going  to  bring  them  in  there ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  they  will  get  enough  in  there  if  they  can. 

Q.  How  many  colored  Republicans  do  you  think  they  would  have  to 
bring  into  the  State  of  Indiana  to  break  up  the  Democratic  majority  ? — 
A.  Eight  or  ten  thousand. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  think  that  this  importation  of  voters  is  likely  to 
cause  much  defection  from  the  Republican  party  ? — A.  I  thiuk  it  has  a 
tendency  to  drive  the  poor  white  men  from  the  Republican  party  into 
the  Democratic  party. 

Q.  What  is  the  Democratic  majority  in  the  State  on  a  popular  vote  ? 
— A.  I  do  not  know,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  pretty  nearly  even,  is  it  not? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  more  than  5,000  or  0,000  majority  ? — xY  1  think 
it  is  about  that. 

Q.  And  you  think  the  Republicans,  between  now  and  the  1st  of  May, 
are  going  to  brink  8,000  colored  Republicans  there  from  other  States  for 
the  purpose  of  carrying  the  State  in  the  interest  of  the  Republican 
party  ? — A.  I  think  they  are  going  to  bring  them  there  and  try  it. 

Q.  And  you  base  that  statement  on  this  statement  of  Byers  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir,  partly;  and  this  gentleman  who  is  at  the  head  of  the  emigrant 
society  here  in  Washington,  Mr.  Holland,  I  believe,  who  testified,  said 
he  was  going  to  enter  into  the  movement  with  greater  vigor,  and  send 
all  the  people  he  could  to  Indiana. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  the  Republicans  there  believe  that  there  is  a 
legitimate  demand  for  the  emigration  of  white  and  colored  people  to  In¬ 
diana,  and  that  they  are  glad  to  receive  any  emigrants  who  desire  to 
come,  and  the  negro  being  a  natural  Republican,  they  desire  to  have 
these  men  come  more  than  any  other? — A.  No,  sir  I  think  the  Repub- 


326 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


lican  party  is  actuated  by  the  very  worst  of  motives  in  carrying  out 
this  scheme.  I  think  they  are  bringing  them  into  our  State  for  a  polit¬ 
ical  purpose. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  are  bringing  them  in  there  for  a  political  pur¬ 
pose  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  they  would  do  almost  anything. 

Q.  What,  this  party  of  high  moral  ideas? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  think  these  Republicans  are  doing  this  thing — paying  the 
way  of  these  negroes,  and  helping  them  along  for  six  or  eight  months, 
from  the  very  worst  of  motives  ? — A.  I  think  it  is  for  a  political  purpose, 
and  I  do  not  think  it  is  done  without  any  regard  for  the  condition  of  the 
negro  himself  or  his  material  welfare  and  benefit. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  feeling  against  men  coming  in  there  and  voting 
the  Democratic  ticket? — A.  I  would  not  object  to  it. 

Q.  You  would  not  object,  but  you  do  not  want  them  to  come  there, 
even  if  they  vote  the  Democratic  ticket,  since  there  is  a  surfeit  of  labor, 
do  you  ? — A.  I  think  if  a  man  wants  to  come  into  the  State,  and  wants 
to  vote  the  Democratic  ticket,  it  is  all  right. 

Q.  And  if  a  good  Republican  editor  says  he  is  willing  for  a  man  to 
come  in  there  and  voting  the  Republican  ticket,  how  about  that? — A. 
I  think  that  is  all  right. 

Q.  Are  you  willing  for  the  laboring  people  to  come  into  the  State — 
the  poor  people,  even — if  they  vote  the  Democratic  ticket  ? — A.  I  do  not 
think  they  would  do  very  well  to  come  in  there;  as  I  say,  the  State  is 
full  of  laboring  people,  sufficient  to  meet  all  the  present  demands. 

Q.  Yrou  mean  until  business  starts  again — that  times  are  dull  there  ? — 
A.  Well,  sir,  we  have  got  plenty  of  labor  to  do  all  that  is  required  at  all 
seasons  of  the  year. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  Indiana  has  ceased  to  be  a  desirable  State 
for  people  to  emigrate  to  ? — A.  I  said  it  in  this  way,  that  I  think  there 
is  enough  there  to  till  the  soil  and  supply  all  the  present  demand  for 
workingmen. 

Q.  Then,  as  a  Democratic  editor,  if  you  were  to  write  anything  for 
publication  in  your  paper  on  this  subject,  you  would  say  to  the  laboring 
people  of  this  country  and  the  world,  “  Do  not  come  to  Indiana,”  would 
you  not? — A.  No,  sir;  I  would  not  say  that.  If  I  was  called  upon  to 
express  my  sentiments  on  the  subject,  I  would  express  them  just  as  I 
have  done  to  you. 

Q.  Then,  if  you  were  an  honest  editor,  would  you  not  say  that  ? — A. 
Well,  sir,  they  could  take  their  choice  and  chances. 

Q.  Is  it  not  your  duty  as  an  editor  and  sentinel  of  the  watch-tower  of 
this  journalistic  Zion  to  tell  these  people  all  to  come  there  ? — A.  No,  sir  ; 
I  do  not  think  it  is  part  of  the  duty  of  the  press  to  do  anything  of  that 
sort. 

Q.  It  is  against  the  interest  of  the  people  and  tax-payers,  and  if  it  is 
to  their  interest  not  to  have  these  people  come,  and  to  the  interest  of 
the  people  themselves  to  stay  away,  do  you  not  think  it  is  your  duty  to 
do  that? — A.  No,  sir;  1  do  not. 

Q.  These  gentlemen, Small  and  Goulding,are  both  good  Democrats? — 
A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  are  solid  Democrats. 

Q.  Was  this  a  prearranged  conversation  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  it  was  not. 

Q.  Where  was  it  held? — A.  It  was  held  in  front  of  Mr.  Small’s  place. 
Mr.  Byers  came  up,  or  rather  Mr.  Doubling  went  in  to  get  a  cigar,  and 
I  suppose  Byers  came  up  to  do  the  same  thing. 

Q.  And  you  thought  it  was  a  good  place  to  put  your  questions  in  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  327 

Q.  Do  you  not  think  that  he  was  hoodwinking  you? — A.  No,  sir;  I 
think  not. 

Q.  Well,  Republicans  are  a  pretty  smart  people  out  there,  are  they 
not? — A.  Yes,  sir;  some  of  them  are. 

Q.  Might  it  not  be  that  in  this  case  the  biter  was  being  bitten  ? — A. 
No,  sir  ;  I  think  not. 

Q.  He  might  have  been  fooling  with  you,  though? — A.  Well,  sir,  the 
captain  was  very  serious  in  what  lie  said. 

Q.  He  looked  like  it,  at  any  rate  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  JAMES  E.  BAKER. 

James  E.  Baker  was  sworn  and  examined,  as  follows  : 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  What  is  your  occupation,  Mr.  Baker  ? — Answer.  I  am  laud 
clerk  in  the  auditor  of  state’s  office. 

Q.  Where? — A.  Indianapolis. 

Q.  Mr.  Baker,  you  may  state  if  you  have  given  some  attention  to  this 
movement  of  colored  people  into  our  State. — A.  I  have,  sir. 

Q.  About  what  time  was  your  attention  directed  to  it? — A.  About 
the  18th  of  October,  1879. 

Q.  What  directed  your  attention  to  it  at  that  time  ? — A.  There  was  a 
party  who  gave  his  name  as  Aaron  W.  Heath,  who  was  brought  to  our 
office  as  the  advance  agent  of  the  emigrants  from  North  Carolina. 

Q.  A  colored  man  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  sort  of  a  colored  man  was  he  ? — A.  Areal  sharp,  intelligent 
colored  man  ;  rather  above  the  average,  I  thought. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  is  now? — A.  No,  sir;  I  saw  him  last  on 
the  23d  of  October. 

Q.  What  did  he  come  to  your  office  for  ? — A.  He  came  there  for  help. 
He  took  us  for  Republicans. 

Q.  Who  came  with  him  ? — A.  Mr.  James C.  Miller,  assistant  adjutant 
general. 

Q.  Did  Miller  play  Republican  on  him  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  he  did. 

Q.  Who  else  was  there? — A.  Miller  and  I  and  the  darky.  He  gave 
us  a  statement  of  his  mission  there,  which  we  wrote  down  and  took  to 
Hie  clerk  of  the  supreme  court  to  be  sworn  to  by  him. 

Q.  How  much  conversation  did  you  have  with  him  before  that  was 
done? — A.  Fully  an  hour.  I  spent  pretty  much  a  full  day  with  him. 

Q.  Look  at  that  (handing  witness  a  paper)  and  see  if  that  is  the  state¬ 
ment  he  made. — Yes,  sir ;  that  is  the  statement  the  darky  gave  us. 

Senator  Voorhees,  the  chairman,  read  the  statement,  as  follows: 

State  of  Indiana, 

Marion  County,  set.  : 

I,  A.  W.  Heath,  colored,  aged  30,  being  a  resident  of  Kingston,  Lenoir  County,  North 
Carolina,  being  duly  sworn,  say  that  I  left  the  place  of  my  residence  in  September, 
1879,  and  went  to  Washington,  D.  C.,  when  I  landed  at  Washington  City  October  1, 
1879;  and  when  I  first  landed  at  Washington  I  inquired  for  my  aunt,  Harriet  Brooks, 
and  found  her,  and  staid  there  for  one  week,  being  sick.  I  then  went  to  J.  M.  Adams, 
secretary  of  the  emigrant  society,  1338  V  street,  northwest,  at  Washington  City,  and 
he  gave  me  transportation  to  Indianapolis.  Mr.  Hawkins,  who  stays  on  the  second 
floor  of  the  Treasury  building,  also  advised  me  to  come  here.  I  think  Mr.  Adams  said 
his  home  was  here.  Mr.  Adams  told  me  when  I  got  here  to  apply  to  Dr.  S.  R.  Elbert, 
at  Indianapolis,  Ind.  I  called  on  Dr.  Elbert;  he  gave  me  but  little  satisfaction. 


328 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


He  advised  me  to  get  a  job  and  go  to  work  here.  This  did  not  satisfy  me,  for  the  num¬ 
ber  I  was  hunting  homes  for  would  not  be  benefited  by  my  securing  a  job  for  myself. 
I  think  the  whole  colored  population — in  fact,  as  many  as  several  hundred — desire  to 
come.  I  represent  a  large  body  that  want  homes,  and  as  soon  as  I  get  places  found  I 
am  to  inform  Mr.  Adams,  and  he  is  to  send  10,000  pamphlets  to  Ohio  and  Indiana,  stat¬ 
ing  the  condition  of  the  colored  people.  We  have  been  instructed  to  get  away  from 
North  Carolina  by  the  1st  day  of  June  next,  so  that  the  census  may  show  us  to  belong 
in  Indiana,  and  not  in  North  Carolina,  for  if  we  are  taken  there  the  Democrats  will 
elect  the  Congressmen,  and  our  moving  won’t  do  us  any  good  at  all.  I  am  a  Republi¬ 
can,  and  always  have  been.  I  think  some  400  or  500  voters  from  my  own  neighbor¬ 
hood  are  expecting  to  come.  I  met  this  morning  in  the  city  of  Indianapolis  a  school 
teacher  (colored)  who  told  me  to  go  and  see  Mr.  Martindale.  I  went  to  his  room,  but 
he  was  not  in.  If  I  can’t  get  location  for  myself  and  the  families  that  want  to  come 
here,  I  am  going  to  Kansas,  even  though  I  have  to  walk  all  the  way. 

A.  W.  HEATH. 

Witnesses : 

James  E.  Baker. 

James  Miller. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  18th  day  of  October,  1879. 

GABRIEL  SC H MUCK, 

Clerk  Supreme  Court,  Indiana. 

Q.  Did  he  write  his  own  name? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  that  is  his  state¬ 
ment  without  any  coloring,  just  as  he  made  it. 

Q.  This  statement  was  written  out  by  whom  ? — A.  By  me. 

Q.  And  read  over  to  him  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  after  we  came  to  the  clerk’s 
office. 

Q.  And  these  interlineations  were  put  in  as  he  desired  the  changes 
made? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  could  read  writing,  and  write  himself. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  with  him? — A.  Nearly  the  whole  day  of  Sat¬ 
urday,  and  then  I  was  with  him  a  while  on  Monday. 

Q.  This  was  on  the  18th  of  October  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  whom  of  the  prominent  men  of  Indianapolis  did  you  submit 
this  statement  when  you  got  it? — A.  When  I  got  it  in  the  evening  1  called 
together  Governor  Hendricks,  Mr.  Brown,  William  Henderson,  W.  W. 
Wooten,  T.  W.  Wooten,  attorney-general,  and  Joseph  Nichol,  of  the 
leading  Democrats  of  Indianapolis. 

Q.  You  showed  it  to  me,  didn’t  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  Senator  Mc¬ 
Donald  was  present. 

Q.  This  affidavit  was  made  and  shown  to  Governor  Hendricks  before 
he  made  that  speech  about  the  exodus  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  was  the  first 
affidavit  captured  in  Indiana. 

Q.  This  man  went  to  Greencastle  in  a  mail  car,  did  he  not  ?— A.  Yes, 
sir;  I  was  there  and  saw  him  dropoff.  I  was  there  as  an  advance 
agent  to  warn  those  people  of  his  coming.  I  saw  Mr.  Lewman  and  we 
went  down  there  to  the  train,  and  he  (Heath)  dropped  out  of  the  car. 
He  had  a  six-quart  bucket  and  an  old  carpet-bag. 

Q.  You  saw  the  paper  that  Mr.  Lewman  has  testified  to,  directing 
him  to  Rev.  Mr.  Clay  and  to  Langsdale  ? — A.  lres,  sir;  I  saw  that.  On 
the  back  of  it  was  u  Holloway,  P.  M.”  He  dropped  from  the  train  and 
came  up  to  Lewman  and  asked  him  if  he  would  show  him  to  the  post- 
office,  and  Lewman  said  u  yes,”  and  that  he  kept  the  office.  Heath 
did  not  recognize  me,  as  I  hid  my  face  from  him.  I  did  not  want  him  to 
see  me  there  after  having  played  such  a  trick  on  him  in  Indianapolis  just 
a  day  or  two  before.  So  I  kept  in  the  background. 

Q.  What  did  he  tell  you  about  seeing  Martindale  in  Indianapolis? — 
A.  He  was  at  the  office  on  Monday  and  said  he  was  going  to  see  Mar¬ 
tindale.  I  suppose  the  reason  he  came  to  our  office  was  that  I  kept  the 
land  office  and  he  had  been  told  he  could  buy  a  great  deal  of  land  at 
one  dollar  and  a  quarter  per  acre,  with  four  years  to  pay  for  it.  He 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  329 

said  that  he  wanted  to  get  homes  for  these  colored  people  who  were 
coming. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  How  old  a  man  was  this  Mr.  Heath  ? — A.  I  should  judge  between 
thirty  and  forty  years  of  age. 

Q.  Was  he  a  man  of  family  himself? — A.  I  did  not  see  any  family 
with  him,  or  ask  him  about  it. 

Q.  You  say  he  was  an  intelligent  man  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  really  above 
the  ordinary  Northern  darky. 

Q.  He  told  you  his  mission  as  you  have  stated  it? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and 
he  regretted  very  much  that  Perry  and  Williams  had  gone  away  the 
day  before. 

Q.  He  was  seeking,  he  said,  to  provide  homes  for  his  people  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q;  What  Republicans  did  he  see  about  it  ? — A.  He  saw  Elbert  and 
Marti n dale,  as  I  understood. 

Q.  Hid  you  direct  him  to  any  of  them  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Miller  go  with  him  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  so. 

Q.  He  said  he  wanted  to  find  these  various  Republicans ;  how  did 
you  divert  him  from  finding  those  men? — A.  We  did  not  do  it. 

Q.  He  wanted  to  see  those  men;  how  did  you  prevent  his  following 
out  his  purpose? — A.  We  did  not  prevent  him. 

Q.  You  persuaded  him? — A.  We  did  not,  at  all.  We  were  in  con¬ 
versation  with  him,  and  he  thought  he  was  in  the  hands  of  friends. 

Q.  How  was  that? — A.  We  played  Republican  on  him. 

Q.  In  what  way  ? — A.  We  gave  him  the  ordinary  Republican  side  of 
the  story. 

Q.  You  and  Miller  both  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  talked  with  him  all  day? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  did. 

Q.  And  in  your  assumed  capacity  as  Republicans  you  got  this  affi¬ 
davit? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  thought  you  were  Republicans  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  believes  it  to  this  day  ? — A.  No,  sir.  He  found  out  differ¬ 
ently  before  he  got  away. 

Q.  You  are  a  Democrat  ? — A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  And  it  is  the  party  of  “  reform,”  and  all  that? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that 
is  the  reason  I  got  that  affidavit.  My  conscience  is  not  smarting  me 
about  it  at  all. 

Q.  You  say  Heath  was  an  intelligent  man  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  state  the  reason  why  he  wanted  to  bring  these  people  to 
Indiana  or  Kansas?  Was  he  making  any  complaints? — A.  No,  sir. 
All  lie  said  was  that  he  was  told  they  could  get  a  house  free,  cow'  and 
calf,  and  winter’s  provisions  for  a  laborer  in  Indiana,  and  could  buy 
land  at  $1.25  per  acre  and  have  four  or  five  years  to  pay  it  in. 

Q.  He  did  not  bring  any  of  the  families  with  him  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  came  to  spy  out  the  land? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  he  would  make  a  reliable  report  to  his  people  of  the 
condition  of  things  in  Indiana? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  as  to  that. 

Q.  You  do  not  think  he  would  transmit  false  intelligence  to  his  peo¬ 
ple  who  were  depending  upon  him  for  the  truth? — A.  I  do  not  desire  to 
express  an  opinion  on  it.  I  think  he  is  an  honorable  colored  man,  so 
far  as  I  know. 

Q.  Then,  from  at  least  one  source,  the  colored  people  of  the  South 
would  be  apt  to  get  a  proper  report  ? — A.  He  did  not  dwell  long  in  In- 


330 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


(liana.  He  went  to  Greencastle  Monday  night,  and  Tuesday  morning, 
I  understand,  he  was  on  his  weary  way  to  Kansas. 

Q.  And  all  the  friends  he  found  in  Indiana  were  Democrats  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  until  Monday,  when  he  got  into  some  Republican  hands. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  is? — A.  No,  sir.  I  understand  that  at 
Greencastle  they  made  up  enough  money  to  ship  him  to  Saint  Louis  on 
his  way  to  Kansas. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  we  can  find  him,  probably? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I 
have  not  seen  him  since  the  23d  of  October.  Then  he  was  at  Green- 
castle  and  went  away  the  next  day,  I  understand. 

Q.  He  did  not  stay  there  to  be  buried  by  Mr.  Russell,  then  ? — A.  No, 
sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  M.  W.  STACK. 

M.  W.  Stack  was  sworn  and  examined,  as  follows  : 

Bv  the  Chairman: 

Question.  Mr.  Stack,  where  do  you  reside  ? — Auswer.  Terre  Haute, 
Ind. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  there? — A.  I  am  chief  of  police  of  the  city  of 
Terre  Haute. 

Q.  Have  you  noticed  these  colored  folks  coming  in  there  from  North 
Carolina? — A.  I  have,  sir;  most  of  them. 

Q.  What  is  their  condition,  generally? — A.  They  are  very  destitute, 
the  most  of  those  whom  1  have  seen. 

Q.  What  part  of  them  have  gotten  employment  since  they  reached 
there  ? — A.  Very  few  of  them  have  gotten  anything  to  do,  and  those 
who  have  have  not  retained  it. 

Q.  Why  is  that ;  if  you  can  state  it  ? — A.  I  know  from  several  sources 
of  four  or  five  who  had  been  employed,  and  in  two  or  three  days 
after  had  been  discharged,  and  who  have  had  no  employment  since.  I 
know  of  others  who  sought  employment  for  several  weeks  and  who  have 
not  been  able  to  find  it.  Eight  or  ten  of  them,  perhaps  more,  have  got¬ 
ten  work. 

Q.  Do  you  think,  from  your  intimate  knowledge  of  the  laboring  classes 
in  Terre  Haute,  that  there  is  any  demand  for  this  destitute  labor  there  ? 
— A.  Not  at  the  present  time. 

Q.  None  at  all? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a  fact  that  we  have  many  people  there  who  are  out  of  work 
and  cannot  get  it? — A.  I  think  I  could  to-day  command  two  hundred 
men  at  one  day’s  notice  in  Terre  Haute.  I  could  get  that  many  in  twen- 
ty-lour  hours  for  any  kind  of  work. 

Q.  And  at  pretty  low  wages? — A.  Yes,  indeed. 

Q.  How  is  it  out  in  the  country  ? — A.  My  knowledge  of  affairs  in  the 
country  leads  me  to  thiuk  there  is  nothing  doing  at  this  season  to  cause 
a  demand  for  this  labor.  Those  who  are  already  there  are  doing 
nothing. 

Q.  What  provision  has  been  made  for  those  emigrants  who  are  not 
employed?  How  are  they  living? — A.  There  are  a  few  of  them  who 
have  had  a  little  money,  so  one  of  them  explained  to  me,  and  they  rented 
a  house.  There  are  two  others  who  have  been  there  for  some  two  mouths 
or  more,  one  of  whom  has  bought  property  and  got  a  home  there.  These 
others  are  scattered  around  among  the  colored  people  where  they  live, 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


331 


and  some  others  have  gone  to  a  colored  settlement  five  or  six  miles  in 
the  country. 

Q.  To  Lost  Creek  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  to  Lost  Creek. 

Q.  How  did  those  old  settled  negroes  take  this  influx  of  new  ones? — 
A.  In  conversation  with  them,  they  say  they  do  not  like  it. 

Senator  Blair.  We  have  no  questions  for  the  witness. 

On  motion,  the  committee  thereupon  adjourned  to  Thursday,  Febru¬ 
ary  12,  1880,  at  10.30  a.  m. 


FOURTEENTH  DAY. 

Washington,  Thursday  February  12,  1880. 

The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  order,  at  10.30  a.  in.,  and  proceeded 
with  the  examination  of  witnesses. 

Present,  the  chairman  and  all  the  members. 

TESTIMONY  OF  HUGHES  EAST. 

Hughes  East  was  sworn  and  examined  as  follows  : 

By'  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside,  Mr.  East  ? — Answer.  At  Indianapolis, 
Ind.  . 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  Indianapolis? — A.  Nearly  five  years; 
will  be  on  the  first  of  May. 

Q.  Where  did  you  live  before  that? — A.  At  Bloomfield,  seventy-five 
miles  west  of  Indianapolis. 

Q.  Are  you  a  native  of  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir, 

Q.  Have  you  lived  all  your  life  in  the  State  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  has  been  your  business  ? — A.  Since  I  have  been  in  Indian¬ 
apolis  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir. — A.  I  have  been  a  grain  and  provision  dealer. 

Q.  Now,  before  you  went  to  Indianapolis? — A.  A  few  years  before  I 
left  Bloomfield  I  was  in  the  live-stock  trade,  and  had  some  warehouses 
on  the  railroad,  and  dealt  in  pork.  Before  that  I  was  a  county  officer. 

Q.  Has  your  attention  been  called  in  any  way  to  the  arrival  of  North 
Carolina  negroes  in  our  State  recently  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  talk  with  them  ? — A.  I  have  had  more  or  less 
conversation  with  some  half  dozen  or  more  of  them. 

Q.  Look  at  that  paper  (handing  a  paper  to  witness)  and  see  if  you 
can  identify  it. — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  recognize  it. 

Q.  What  is  it? — A.  It  is  a  statement  made  by  one  Silas  Isler,  a  col¬ 
ored  man,  whom  I  chanced  to  meet  in  the  auditor’s  office  in  Indianapolis. 

Q.  How  came  he  to  make  it? — A.  He  came  in  with  one  or  two  others, 
in  company  with  a  young  man  from  the  Sentinel,  and  said  he  wanted  to 
make  a  statement,  and  I  wrote  this  out  just  as  he  wanted  it. 

Q.  Did  he  approach  you  on  the  subject,  or  you  him  ? — A.  I  went  down 
to  the  office  to  attend  a  meeting  of  citizens  to  invite  Parnell  to  Indian¬ 
apolis.  I  went  into  the  auditor’s  office,  and  soon  after  these  men  came 
in  there.  I  had  seen  one  of  them  before  probably,  but  not  this  gentle¬ 
man  who  made  the  statement. 

Q.  Who  was  it  brought  them  there? — A.  A  young  man  named  Tark- 
ingtou,  1  think,  introduced  these  boys  to  General  Mauson  and  myself, 
and  to  perhaps  one  or  two  others.  He  introduced  the  subject,  I  think, 


332 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


himself,  saying  the  boys  wanted  to  make  a  statement  in  reference  to 
their  situation  ;  that  they  were  out  of  money  and  needed  relief. 

Q.  How  old  was  Isler  ? — A.  Some  twenty-two  or  twenty-three  years 
old. 

Q.  What  degree  of  intelligence  did  he  show? — A.  About  the  ordi¬ 
nary  degree  for  a  colored  man  in  Indiana. 

Q.  Who  wrote  that  statement? — A.  I  did. 

Q.  Did  you  read  it  over  to  him  ?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  write  what  be  told  you? — A.  Yes,  sir,  as  near  as  I  could 
gather  his  ideas  and  embody  them  in  language. 

Q.  You  may  read  that  statement  to  the  committee. 

The  w  itness  read  as  lollows  : 


Indianapolis,  Ind.,  January  10,  1880. 

I,  Silas  Isler,  of  Lenoir  County,  North  Carolina,  make  the  following  statement:  I  am 
from  the  State  of  North  Caroliua,  Lenoir  County.  I  left  home  about  live  weeks  ago 
with  my  father  and  mother,  leaving  my  wife  and  child  there.  I  lived  with  Mr.  Alfred 
Canady,  near  La  Grange,  say  four  miles.  I  was  induced  to  come  to  lndiaua  by  the  rep¬ 
resentations  made  by  Sam.  Perry  and  Peter  Williams,  both  Republicans,  who  said  there 
was  plenty  of  work  in  Indiana.  That  men  would  hire  us  as  soon  as  we  arrived,  right 
from  the  train,  and  pay  us  from  $1.50  to  $3  a  day.  That  400  or  500  houses  were  ready 
for  us,  all  furnished  for  us,  and  we  could  get  land  at  $1  to  $1.50  per  acre  on  seven 
years’  time  in  any  quantity  to  suit  us,  and  that  the  women  folks  could  get  from  $20  to 
$25  per  month.  I  paid  my  way  here  from  money  made  in  picking  cotton,  aud  father 
and  mother  sold  three  cows,  and  horse  and  buggy,  aud  corn  and  fodder,  and  all  in  the 
house  but  their  beds,  to  get  money  to  come  on.  I  have  only  made  since  I  come  on  five 
dollars,  at  40  cents  a  day,  and  it  is  hard  for  father  aud  me  to  make  enough  to  live  on 
in  the  plainest  and  cheapest  way.  We  were  better  off  in  Caroliua,  and  want  to  go 
hack.  They  told  us  Indiana  was  Democratic,  and  they  wanted  us  to  vote  the  Repub¬ 
lican  ticket,  for  the  Democrats  “were  using  the  offices  for  fraud  and  corruption.”  And 
Mr.  Perry  said,  “We  must  all  be  Republicans;  we  want  no  Democrat  negroes  in  the 
party  going  to  Indiana;  we  want  all  the  party  to  be  strong  hearted  Republicans,” 
and  the  people  wroukl  take  care  of  us.  I  was  well  treated  in  North  Carolina,  and  so 
was  everybody  who  behaved  themselves,  both  white  aud  black. 

Ms 

SILAS  X  ISLER. 

mark. 

Witnesses  to  signature: 

J.  C.  Tarkington. 

Hughes  East. 


Q.  Who  attest  that  paper? — A.  Mr.  Tarkington  and  myself,  but  it 
was  made  in  the  presence,  also,  of  General  Mauson,  auditor  of  State. 

Q.  See  whether  you  recognize  that  paper  (handing  another  paper  to 
witness). — A.  Yes,  sir;  this  is  the  statement  made  by  Mr.  Williams. 

Q.  What  is  his  name? — A.  Lewis  Williams. 

Q.  Where  was  it  made  ? — A.  The  same  afternoon,  and  in  the  same 
building.  He  was  an  older  man  than  Isler,  and  a  man  of  some  intelli¬ 
gence. 

The  Chairman.  Please  read  that  statement  to  the  committee. 

The  Witness  read  as  follows; 

Indianapolis,  January  10,  1880. 

Lewis  Williams,  from  Lenoir  County,  North  Carolina,  makes  the  following  state¬ 
ment: 

1,  Lewis  Williams,  of  my  own  free  will,  make  the  following  statement:  I  am  from 
the  State  of  North  Carolina,  Lenoir  County.  I  left  my  home  in  North  Carolina  about 
five  weeks  ago.  I  was  induced  to  leave  North  Carolina  by  representations  made  by 
Sam.  Perry  and  Peter  Williams,  both  Republicans,  and  one  or  two  others,  who  were 
also  Republicans.  These  men  said  there  was  plenty  of  work  in  Indiana ;  that  men 
would  be  ready  to  hire  the  immigrants  as  soon  as  they  arrived,  right  from  the  train, 
and  pay  them  from  $2  to  $3  per  day  for  farming  aud  for  such  other  work  as  the  men 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


333 


could  do.  That  there  were  at  least  500  houses  waitiug  for  them  all  furnished  and  ready 
to  receive  them,  and  that  provisions  would  be  furnished  for  six  or  seven  months  gra¬ 
tuitously.  That  land  would  be  furnished  in  such  tracts  as  the  immigrants  might 
want,  and  that  from  six  to  seven  years  to  pay  for  it  in  would  be  given,  and  that  these 
lands  could  be  had  at  from  $1  to  $1.50  per  acre;  and  that  women  as  cooks,  chamber¬ 
maids,  and  house  servants,  could  get  from  $20  to  $25  per  month.  All  of  those  repre¬ 
sentations  I  have  found  to  be  untrue.  There  is  no  demand  for  labor,  no  lands  for  sale 
at  the  prices  named,  and  no  such  wages  as  I  was  promised  are  paid.  Iu  four  weeks  I 
have  been  able  to  earn  $8.  I  paid  my  own  way  to  Indiana,  but  about  three-fifths  of 
the  immigrants  could  not  pay  their  way  from  Washington,  and  had  to  have  it  paid  for 
them  by  parties  in  Washington,  and  were  destitute  of  comfortable  clothing,  and  when 
they  arrived  were  in  a  suffering  condition.  The  immigrants  were  told  that  they  must 
vote  the  Republican  ticket  when  they  arrived  in  Indiana,  because  the  Democrats  had 
used  their  offices  for  fraud  and  corruption.  We  were  told  by  Perry  and  Williams  that 
we  must  all  be  Republicans  ;  we  want  no  Democrat  negroes  in  the  party,  and  they 
want  all  the  negroes  to  be  valiant-hearted  Republicans.  I  was  induced  to  believe  the 
representations  made  by  Peter  Williams  because  he  is  my  cousin.  My  observation 
leads  me  to  believe  that  the  colored  people  who  have  come  from  North  Carolina  to  In¬ 
diana  are  far  worse  off  than  they  were  iu  North  Carolina.  Since  I  have  been  in  In¬ 
diana  I  have  met  a  good  many  Republicans,  white  and  colored,  and  have  been  uniformly 
told  that  the  State  of  Indiana  is  Democratic,  and  that  the  colored  immigrants  would  be 
expected  to  vote  the  Republican  ticket.  These  Republicans  have  told  me  that  now, 
being  in  Indiana,  I  was  a  free  man  and  could  vote  as  I  please,  but  I  was  as  free  in 
North  Carolina  as  I  am  in  Indiana.  I  am  a  married  man  and  have  a  wife  and  two 
children  to  support,  who  are  with  me.  While  in  Washington  I  was  led  to  believe  from 
conversation  with  white  and  colored  people  that  the  money  raised  to  forward  the  des¬ 
titute  negroes  to  Indiana  was  furnished  entirely  by  Republicans,  and  I  know  posi¬ 
tively  that  in  North  Carolina  no  Democrat  in  any  way  helped  to  entice  us  from  our 
homes,  but  advised  us  to  stay,  for  they  were  certain  we  should  be  deceived.  I  am 
personally  acquainted  with  Governor  Vance,  now  United  States  Senator  from  North 
Carolina,  and  if  he  were  in  Indianapolis  to-day  he  would  shake  hands  with  me  as  quick 
as  he  would  with  any  man  in  the  State,  and  I  am  willing  to  refer  to  him  as  to  my 
character. 

*  his 

LEWIS  X  WILLIAMS. 

mark. 

Witness  to  signature: 

Jesse  C.  Tarkington. 

Q.  You  say  he  was  a  man  of  more  than  ordinary  intelligence? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  he  impressed  me  as  a  right  sprightly  colored  man. 

Q.  Did  you  read  that  over  to  him  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  did  nor.  It  is  not 
written  in  my  hand.  It  was  written  in  the  same  room  at  the  time,  and 
the  intelligence  he  evinced  makes  it  certain  he  understood  it. 

Q.  That  seems  to  be  a  copy  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  as  to  that.  The  orig¬ 
inal  ought  to  be  here,  I  think.  1  did  not  see  him  write  it,  but  I  had  a  talk 
with  this  man  myself. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  he  bad  made  such  a  statement? — A.  I  do  not  rec¬ 
ollect  that  he  did.  I  told  him  what  I  had  heard  of  it,  and  he  said  it 
was  a  truthful  statement. 

Q.  What  did  these  men  say  about  getting  away  from  Indiana? — A. 
That  was  the  burden  of  their  talk.  They  were  very  much  discouraged, 
and  evidently  in  need  of  aid.  Indianapolis  is  a  charitable  place,  but 
the  great  number  of  these  people  made  it  hard  to  furnish  them  with 
anything.  They7  were  praying  to  get  home,  and  said  if  we  would  get 
them  to  Washington  they  would  walk  home. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  many  of  them  since  they  came  there? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  not  to  communicate  with  many  of  them,  but  1  have  seen  them  pass¬ 
ing  on  the  street ;  passing  our  board  of  trade  on  their  way  from  the 
depot  up  to  the  quarters  where  they  were  taken  care  of. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  those  who  are  not  employed  are  living  now? — 
A.  Very  few  of  them  have  any  money,  as  I  am  informed  by  reading  the 
colored  paper  there.  They  have  a  standing  committee  of  colored  peo¬ 
ple  to  look  after  these  folks,  and  I  understand  they  make  an  effort  to 
take  care  of  them. 


334 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Mr.  East,  do  you  regard  yourself  well  informed  as  to  whether 
there  is  a  demand  in  Indiana  for  more  laborers  than  we  already  have? 
— A.  I  think  I  am  reasonably  informed  on  that  point. 

Q.  State  your  conclusions  in  regard  to  it? — A.  I  am  sorry  to  have  to 
state  that  Indiana  has  a  great  many  worthy  poor  people  now  who  can¬ 
not  get  employment  in  her  borders. 

Q.  They  are  no  small  number? — A.  They  are  a  great  number. 

Q.  Isn’t  that  fact  forced  upon  the  attention  of  the  people  every  day  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir ;  of  course.  If  a  man  is  not  so  cold  that  none  can  approach 
him  he  hears  these  appeals  for  employment  every  day,  coming  from 
worthy  men. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  true  that  worthy  men  and  women  are  searching  for  em¬ 
ployment  daily  to  earn  bread  and  clothing? — A.  I  think  that  has  been 
true  every  year  for  several  years  past. 

Q.  And  been  especially  so  since  the  crash  in  1S73  ? — A.  Probably  for 
a  year  or  so  it  wasn’t  so  great,  but  it  had  to  come,  and  there  has  been  a 
great  deal  of  suffering  since.  There  has  been  some  little  improvement 
for  the  last  year. 

Q.  But  there  is  still  enough  suffering  to  give  everybody  serious  con¬ 
cern  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  appeal  after  appeal  to  get  men  places  and 
cannot  do  it. 

Q.  From  your  intimate  knowledge  of  the  situation,  is  not  this 
immigration,  however  induced  or  caused,  the  greatest  crime  against 
these  poor  colored  people  that  you  have  ever  witnessed  ? — A.  I  think 
it  is  cruel  to  the  colored  men — woefully  so.  I  live  in  the  northern 
part  of  the  city,  on  Illinois  street,  where  these  colored  people  are  quar¬ 
tered.  I  took  a  stroll  with  a  Republican  friend  one  day  just  to  look  at 
them,  and  the  scene  was  pitiable. 

Q.  How  were  they  living  ? — A.  They  were  lying  about  the  church  floor, 
which  a  fire  made  comfortable,  and  the  colored  people  and  some  white 
people  were  trying  to  help  them. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  were  there  ? — A.  I  could  not  say. 

Q.  Any  number? — A.  A  considerable  number. 

Q.  Men,  women,  and  children  living  there  all  together? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Eating  and  sleeping  there? — A.  I  did  not  see  them  eating,  but  I 
think  something  to  eat  is  brought  there  to  them. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  Where  are  these  two  witnesses,  Isler  and  Lewis  Williams? — A.  I 
think  they  are  there  yet.  I  had  not  seen  them  for  a  day  or  two  before 
I  left,  but  I  think  they  are  there. 

Q.  Were  these  statements  of  theirs  sworn  to? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Why  not  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  nothing  was  said  about  their  swearing  to 
them. 

Q.  They  were  brought  in  there  by  this  attache  of  the  Democratic 
Sentinel  to  get  their  testimony  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  know  anything 
of  the  kind,  sir. 

Q;  Why  did  you  take  the  statement? — A.  Because  I  was  glad  to  re¬ 
duce  it  to  writing  in  view  of  what  was  going  on  here. 

Q.  You  did  it  for  use  here  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  didn’t  you  reduce  it  to  the  form  of  an  affidavit  ? — A.  I  would 
ask  the  question  whether  an  affidavit  would  be  admissible  ?  I  know  that 
in  a  court  of  record  it  would  not  be. 

Q.  I  would  like  to  have  you  explain  more  fully  to  the  committee  that 
while  preparing  the  paper  you  thought  it  would  be  more  likely  to  be 
received  as  evidence  if  not  sworn  than  if  it  was  ? — A.  I  do  not  say  I 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  335 

thought  so.  I  took  it  simply  because  I  wanted  to  remember  and  have 
this  committee  remember  what  these  men  had  said  in  case  they  were 
called  here  as  witnesses. 

Q.  Do  you  know  why  you  were  summoned  instead  of  those  men  ?— A. 

I  do  not  think  Senator  Voorkees  knew  I  had  those  papers  when  he 
summoned  me. 

Q.  Who  were  present  when  this  statement  was  gotten  ? — A.  General 
Manson,  auditor  of  State,  and  Mr.  Maynard. 

Q.  Is  Maynard  a  Democrat  ? — A.  A  Democrat;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  else  was  there  ? — A.  This  young  man  Tarkington. 

Q.  You  three  Democrats  were  there  when  you  first  heard  that  these 
men  were  to  make  statements  ? — A.  I  did  not  hear  it. 

Q.  Who  first  introduced  them? — A.  I  think  young  Tarkington  intro¬ 
duced  them. 

Q.  Why  did  they  come  to  you? — A.  They  did  not  come  to  me.  I  was 
there  and  met  them. 

Q.  Could  this  colored  man  read  ? — A.  I  do  not  know.  He  said  he 
could  not  write,  and  I  read  it  all  over  to  him. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  whether  the  other  man  could  read  or  not? — A. 
No,  sir.  And  in  answer  to  your  question  why  they  were  not  brought 
here  as  witnesses  I  will  state  that  it  was  not  my  province  to  bring  any¬ 
body.  They  were  anxious  to  get  here,  and  I  would  have  brought  them 
if  I  could. 

Q.  These  affidavits  were  taken  at  the  same  time? — A.  Those  are 
statements,  not  affidavits,  ies,  sir;  they  were  made  the  same  after¬ 
noon. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  heard  a  good  many  say  that  if  they  could  only 
get  to  Washington  they  would  walk  back  home? — A.  Yes,  sir;  those 
two  are  not  the  only  ones  I  spoke  of. 

Q.  Who  else? — A.  Peter  Drew  is  another.  His  statement  is  here,  I 
believe,  though  I  did  not  see  him  make  it.  Another  party  made  a  state¬ 
ment  to  which  he  was  qualified  in  the  Sentinel  office,  some  days  after.  I 
believe  those  four  are  the  only  oues  I  have  heard  express  a  wish  to  come 
back. 

Q.  How  many  were  in  that  building  you  visited? — A.  That  church- 
building  ?  I  did  not  count  them. 

Q.  How  long  had  they  been  there  ? — A.  I  do  not  remember  that. 

Q.  Were  not  they  a  very  recent  arrival  ? — A.  I  do  not  think  they  had 
been  there  but  a  few  days. 

Q.  Was  that  the  receiving  room  for  them? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  it 
w  as  regarded  for  a  while  as  the  place  for  them. 

Q.  That  is  where  the  colored  residents  were  taking  care  of  them  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  but  I  think  the  trustees  refused  them  permission  to  go 
into  the  church  any  more. 

Q.  That  w7as  the  last  arrival  ? — A.  The  last  arrival,  I  think,  remaiued 
in  the  depot.  I  think  the  Independent  News  stated  they  were  still  in  the 
Union  Depot  when  I  left,  and  their  leaders  were  loud  in  their  indigna¬ 
tion. 

Q,  You  spoke  of  the  condition  of  these  people  as  “  pitiable  ;  v  do  not 
both  Democrats  and  Republicans  contribute  alike  to  their  relief  ? — A.  I 
do  not  know  much  as  to  the  condition  of  this  particular  charity. 

Q.  I  speak  now  of  this  particular  charity. — A.  I  think  they  do;  but 
there  is  some  prejudice  against  these  people. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  such  as  to  keep  a  humane  person  from  helping 
people  in  their  pitiable  condition  ? — A.  No,  sir. 


336  NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 

Q.  ETave  you  heard  anybody  speak  of  it  ? — A.  I  heard  General  Man- 
son  say  he  had  exhausted  all  his  pocket  change  on  them. 

Q.  How  much  change  was  that  ? — A.  Some  five  or  six  dollars,  I  think. 
I  heard  Holloway  say  he  had  sent  them  a  barrel  of  pork  ;  also  five  dol¬ 
lars  for  their  support. 

Q.  And  General  Manson  gave  them  money? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  is  a  Democratic  official  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Holloway,  a  Republican  official? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  infer  because  Republicans  gave  them  help  and  support, 
the  exodus  is  therefore  a  political  movement?— A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not 
said  any  such  thing. 

Q.  Do  you  infer  because  Republicans  gave  to  them  as  charity,  the 
movement  is  still  a  political  one  ? — A.  I  think  the  Republicans  and  Dem¬ 
ocrats  alike,  in  Indiana,  will  give  to  people  whom  they  know  to  be  sui- 
fering. 

Q.  But  not  for  political  purposes  ? — A.  The  Democrats  and  Republi¬ 
cans  out  there  give  pretty  liberally  for  political  purposes  in  Indiana 
also. 

Q.  Are  the  Republicans  more  liberal  generally  in  such  matters  than 
the  Democrats? — A.  I  have  no  idea  that  the  Republicans  are  more  lib¬ 
eral  just  now  to  these  people  than  the  Democrats,  though  the  Republi¬ 
cans  rather  encourage  it,  and  ask  the  people  to  come  there. 

Q.  Are  not  the  Republicans  more  friendly,  as  a  rule,  to  the  colored 
people  than  Democrats? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  they  may  be. 

Q.  They  manifest  the  same  feeling  now  toward  them  as  before  the  ex¬ 
odus? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  think  their  sympathy  goes  so  far  as  to  be 
wholly  removed  from  the  hope  of  political  advantage  from  the  exodus. 

Q.  Tell  us  why  you  think  so  ? — A.  I  see  the  county  of  Marion,  the 
county  in  which  Indianapolis  is  located,  the  colored  men  have  the  bal¬ 
ance  of  power,  but  the  Republicans  use  them,  and  hardly  ever  give  them 
any  of  the  offices.  They  ask  for  office  but  never  get  it.  The  Republi¬ 
cans  are  very  kind  in  their  expressions,  treat  them  nicely  at  election 
times,  appoint  some  on  the  police,  perhaps,  but  when  it  comes  to  the 
offices  they  do  not  give  them  any. 

Q.  Do  the  Democrats  give  them  a  chance  at  the  offices  ? — A.  We 
nominated  one  named  Christie  for  an  office,  but  he  was  beaten  by  the 
Republicans  and  their  hostility  to  him. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  movement  by  Democrats  from  Indiana  to 
North  Carolina,  in  consequence  of  this  exodus  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  think 
there  is  none. 

Q.  Have  you  any  information  in  regard  to  the  importation  of  white 
people  and  voters  across  the  line  from  Kentucky  into  Indiana? — A.  I 
have  this  information:  I  read  in  this  Independent  News,  a  colored 
paper,  where  the  editor  took  to  task  the  editor  of  another  paper  for 
stating  that  this  exodus  movement  ought  to  be  counteracted  by  the  im¬ 
portation  of  whites  across  the  line;  that  the  Democrats  have  the  advan¬ 
tage  now,  and  it  would  be  a  good  thing  to  keep  it. 

Q.  It  was  rebuking  the  Democrats  lor  that  proposition  ? — A.  No,  sir ; 
it  was  giving  us  a  warning. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  this  hue  and  cry  was  raised  against  these  poor 
negroes  in  order  to  divert  attention  from  and  cover  the  importation  of 
white  Democratic  voters? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  think  there  is  a  word 
of  truth  in  the  statement. 

Q.  It  has  been  reported  as  true  to  me? — A.  Some  men  might  have 
said  that,  but  I  do  not  kuow  of  any  particle  of  truth  in  it. 


NEGKO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  337 

Q.  You  said,  I  believe,  that  there  is  some  improvement  in  affairs  in 
Indiana  the  past  year? — A.  Yes,  sir;  some. 

Q.  Is  it  very  great? — -A.  Yres,  sir;  that  might  not  be  too  strong  to 
say  that  it  is  great,  because  the  depression  before  that  was  very  great. 


TESTIMONY  OF  GEN.  M.  D.  MANSON. 


Gen.  M.  D.  Manson  was  sworn  and  examined  as  follows  : 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  General  Manson,  where  do  you  reside? — Answer.  Indian¬ 
apolis. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  Indiana? — A.  About  thirty-eight 
years,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  reside  before  going  to  Indianapolis  ? — A.  At  Craw- 
fordsville. 

Q.  What  circumstance  made  you  change  your  residence? — A.  I  was 
elected  auditor  of  State,  and  I  removed  to  the  capital. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  there? — A.  Since  last  April. 

Q.  Yrou  are  auditor  of  State  at  this  time? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  serve  in  the  lower  house  of  Congress  ? — A.  I 
served  during  the  Forty-second  Congress. 

Q.  I  believe  you  likewise  served  during  the  war  somewhere  else? — A. 
I  went  into  the  military  service  the  next  day  after  Fort  Sumpter  was 
fired  upon,  and  I  resigned,  on  account  of  a  wound  received  in  service, 
December,  1804. 

Q.  Do  you  regard  your  acquaintance  in  Indiana  as  largeand  thorough 
as  that  of  most  men  ? — A.  I  have  a  general  acquaintance  over  the 
State. 


Q.  Has  your  attention  been  arrested  by  this  immigration  of  colored 
people  into  our  State  from  North  Carolina  during  the  past  few  months? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  first  attracted  your  attention  and  caused  you  to  give  it  any 
notice? — A.  I  saw  notices  in  the  newspapers  of  a  contemplated  migra¬ 
tion  of  negroes  from  the  South,  but  the  first  I  knew  of  it  actually  was 
when  this  man  Heath,  of  whom  Mr.  Baker  spoke  in  his  testimony,  was 
in  our  office.  That  was  about  the  20th  of  October.  I  do  not  think  there 
was  any  general  movement  of  them  into  the  State  until  November,  and 
they  have  been  coming  regular  ever  since. 

Q.  Have  you  noticed  them  on  their  arrival  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  For  the 
first  few  weeks  the  immigrants  went  up  Illinois  and  Meridian  streets  ; 
Illinois  street  goes  up  from  the  west  end  of  the  depot.  Since  that  they 
have  changed  their  tactics  and  go  up  Tennessee  street.  The  State  offices 
are  on  that  street — corner  of  Washington  and  Tennessee  streets.  Quite 
a  number  of  these  folks  were  passing  by  about  three  weeks  ago,  and 
some  of  the  boys  on  the  street  called  at  them  and  attracted  some  atten¬ 
tion.  I  stepped  to  the  door  and  asked  what  was  the  matter.  One  of 
the  immigrants  shook  his  finger  over  and  said  :  “  God  damn  you,  we 
will  show  you  after  the  next  election  whether  you  will  holler  at  ns.” 

Q.  He  seemed  to  know  there  was  to  be  an  election? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
and  he  was  going  to  show  those  fellows  at  the  State-house  not  to  “hol¬ 
ler”  at  them. 

Q,  Who  was  conducting  them  ? — A.  I  do  not  know.  They  had  guns 
with  them  ;  there  was  one  gun  about  every  fifteen  feet  in  the  squad. 


22 


EX 


338 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Dow  many  of  them  were  men? — A.  Less  than  half  of  them  were 
men. 

Q.  They  were  men,  women,  and  children  ? — A.  Men,  women,  and 
children. 

Q.  Uow  many  of  them  were  there  ? — A.  A  pretty  large  body  of  them. 

Q.  Have  any  of  these  people  been  about  your  office  and  the  State- 
house  ? — A.  There  have  been  a  great  many  of  them  about  there. 

Q.  vVliat  appears  to  be  their  reason  for  coming  there  about  the  State 
officers  ? — A.  They  seemed  to  think  the  State  officers  would  send  them 
back  home  from  Indiana  to  get  rid  of  their  votes. 

Q.  The  State  offices  are  tilled  by  Democrats,  are  they  not  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  these  people  came  there  to  get  sent  back  home? — A.  Some 
of  them  have  an  idea  that  there  is  a  fund  there  to  be  used  to  help  them. 

Q.  What  did  you  tell  them  on  that  subject  ? — A.  I  said  we  had  no 
fund,  and  that  the  Democratic  party,  nor  I,  had  anything  to  do  with 
bringing  them  into  the  State,  and  we  would  do  nothing  to  send  them 
out  of  it. 

Q.  Were  you  present  when  Islerand  Williams  made  their  statements? 
— A.  A"es,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  dictate  them? — A.  Y'es,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  they  say  about  swearing  to  them  ? — A.  They  offered  to 
swear  to  them  but  there  was  no  officer  in  the  building  who  could  ad¬ 
minister  an  oath.  I  do  not  think  I  could,  because  while  I  had  the  right 
to  do  so  in  certain  matters  of  State,  I  do  not  think  I  could  in  other 
things.  They  would  have  been  sworn,  but  there  was  no  notary  or  the 
clerk  of  the  supreme  court  there. 

Q.  Now,  general,  on  this  subject  of  charity — what  is  your  experience 
on  that  subject  ? — A.  Well,  I  think  nearly  every  one  who  came  to  the 
office  and  said  he  was  in  a  destitute  condition  got  something.  I  know 
Governor  Williams  has  been  exceedingly  kind  to  them. 

Q.  Hardly  a  day  passes,  does  it,  that  they  do  not  get  something  out 
of  him  ? — A.  I  know  his  office  is  next  to 
without  getting  it. 

Q.  They  are  in  a  miserable,  destitute  condition,  are  they  not? — A. 
Yres,  sir;  the  most  of  them,  but  some  of  them  are  in  good  condition. 
This  man  Williams,  who  made  the  statement,  had  money  enough  to  pay 
his  way  to  Indianapolis  and  had  five  dollars  at  the  time.  He  had  un¬ 
derstood  that  Martindale  made  a  statement  to  a  newspaper  reporter 
that  the  Republicans  would  furnish  them  with  money  or  work.  He 
went  to  see  him,  and  when  Martindale  came  into  the  office  he  asked  him 
for  money  or  work.  Martindale  asked  him  what  he  followed  ;  he  said 
“ farming,”  and  Martindale  asked  why  he  did  not  go  to  the  country  and 
get  work.  He  replied  that  he  had  been  all  around  Indianapolis  for  a 
distance  often  miles  and  could  get  neither. 

Q.  Did  the  judge  (Martindale)  promise  him  any  money? — A.  No,  sir; 
he  did  not  give  him  any,  or  promise  him  any.  The  man  said  it  would 
take  seventy-five  dollars  to  get  himself  and  family  back. 

Q.  What  is  your  general  opinion  of  the  prospects  at  this  time  of  ne¬ 
gro  laborers  from  the  South,  or  laborers  from  anywhere  else,  coming  to 
our  State  to  better  their  condition  ? — A.  I  do  not  believe  that  the  colored 
people  can  benefit  themselves  by  coming  to  Indiana.  While  it  is  a 
liberal  State,  the  people  hav  e  never  looked  very  liberally  on  the  colored 
people.  When  the  present  constitution  was  adopted,  there  was  a  clause 
(No.  13)  to  prohibit  colored  immigration.  Although  the  general  con 


mine,  and  that  none  ask  him 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  339 

stitu t ion  was  only  adopted  by  20,000  votes,  that  clause  was  adopted  by 

80,000  ! 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  that  while  the  school  law  is  general  on  its  face,  it  is 
almost  a  dead  letter,  because  the  people  do  not  like  mixed  schools  ? — A. 
It  was  so  at  first,  but  I  think,  to  some  extent,  that  is  dying  out.  I  know 
of  colored  children  going  into  schools,  where  there  are  not  colored 
schools  in  proper  distance.  In  Indianapolis  we  have  a  very  fine  colored 
school. 

Q.  Now,  tell  us,  in  your  opinion  (and  nobody  is  better  able  to  tell), 
whether  there  is  a  demand  for  labor,  aside  from  the  race  of  the  laborers, 
at  this  time  in  Indiana? — A.  There  is  not  a  demand  for  foreign  labor  at 
this  time.  There  could  be  much  more  used  than  is  there  if  it  only 
brought  capital  with  it.  It  takes  capital  to  create  such  a  demand.  We 
have  vast  stone  quarries  and  mines  of  coal  to  open,  but  it  takes  capital 
to  manage  that. 

Q.  Is  there  any  idle  labor  in  Indiana? — A.  There  is  idle  labor,  and 
has  been  much  of  it  for  the  last  two  years.  I  know  a  competent  engineer, 
by  the  name  of  Scanlan,  who  has  been  many  years  employed  m  and 
about  Indianapolis,  and  who  has  been  exceedingly  anxious  to  get  a 
place  in  the  new  asylum  building.  He  said  he  was  destitute,  and  finally 
offered  to  work  for  board  for  himself  and  wife.  He  has  been  so  pressed 
that  I  know  Adjutant  General  Buss  went  around  and  raised  money  to 
pay  his  rent.  I  do  not  know  whether  he  is  in  Indianapolis  yet,  or  not. 

Q.  Is  not  your  attention  constantly  called  to  people  who  are  wanting 
work  ? — A.  There  is  a  great  desire  for  something  to  do  in  Indianapolis. 

Q.  It  has  been  sought  to  represent  here  that  the  people  of  Indiana  are- 
hostile  to  immigration.  Do  you  know  of  any  hostility  there  to  the 
coming  of  any  except  paupers  who  become  objects  of  charity  ?  Is  there 
any  hostility  to  any  man  coming  there  who  can  support  himself? — A. 
None,  whatever.  The  people  of  Indiana  gladly  welcome  all  immigrants 
from  all  countries  who  can  support  themselves;  but  they  are  not  satis¬ 
fied  to  have  paupers  of  any  country,  north  or  south,  Europe  or  Asia, 
brought  into  the  State  and  dumped  upon  them. 

Q.  We  have  a  law  against  that,  have  we  not  ? — A.  I  am  not  a  lawyer, 
and  I  do  not  know  as  to  that. 

By  Senator  Vance: 

Q.  The  representations  made  here  by  witnesses  from  North  Carolina, 
black  and  white,  are  to  the  effect  that  a  common  field-hand  there  aver¬ 
ages,  for  the  best  hands,  ten  dollars  per  month,  with  rations,  a  house  to 
live  in,  with  firewood  free,  and  the  ordinary  garden  patches;  and  that 
women  and  children  get  front  five  dollars  up  to  seven,  eight,  and  nine 
dollars  per  month  ;  now,  I  ask  you  if  common  farm  labor  is  any  better 
paid  in  Indiana? — A.  No,  sir;  it  is  not,  taking  the  year  around.  The 
ordinary  price  of  labor,  with  board,  is  fifteen  or  sixteen  dollars  a  month 
during  the  cropping  season,  running  from  the  time  they  commence 
plowing  for  corn  on  until  the  oats  are  harvested;  Almost  anywhere 
that  the  farmers  are  gathering  corn,  they  do  it  by  paying  by  the  bushel. 
I  have  had  some  gathered  myself  that  way. 

Q.  flow  many  hands  do  the  tarmers  employ  according  to  the  acres  of 
land  they  cultivate? — A.  There  are  few  farmers  who  have  many  hands 
all  the  year  around.  The  best  of  our  farmers  employ  three  or  four  all 
the  time  during  the  cropping  season.  Nearly  all  the  time  else  they 
have  no  more  than  one  or  two. 

Q.  Suppose  a  man  is  employed  at  fifteen  and  sixteen  dollars  a  month, 
and  all  that;  has  he  a  house  and  so  on,  as  I  described  awhile  ago  ? — A. 


340 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


No.  sir.  The  most  of  the  laborers  are  young  men,  or  they  take  some¬ 
thing  in  the  shape  of  land  to  work. 

Q.  These  wages,  then,  include  only  board  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  wash¬ 
ing. 

Bv  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  You  think  it  is  a  lack  of  capital  rather  than  a  surplus  of  labor 
that  makes  the  demand  for  laborers  light  in  Indiana  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  We 
could  employ  more  labor  if  we  had  more  capital. 

Q.  Indiana  is  not  a  poor  State,  is  it  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  not  a  good  deal  of  accumulated  capital  in  the  State  ? — A. 
I  cannot  say  that  there  is.  There  are  a  number  of  people  pretty  well 
off  in  most  of  the  counties;  but  the  people  generally  are  not  rich. 

Q.  Yrou  say  your  people  have  no  hostility  to  those  who  can  support 
themselves  ? — A.  Yres,  sir;  I  say  so. 

Q.  And  you  are  willing  to  have  people  come  there  who  have  muscle? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  the  people  are  willing  and  anxious  to  have  people  come 
in  there  who  can  make  a  living,  either  by  labor  or  the  use  of  capital. 

Q.  Do  not  the  majority  of  the  people  who  make  an  honest  living  do  so 
by  muscle  ? — A.  YYs,  sir,  I  suppose  so,  if  you  throw  out  these  fellows 
who  hang  around  the  capitol. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  the  capitol  of  Indiana? — A.  No,  sir;  I  mean  here — 
the  carpet-baggers. 

Q.  Are  you  opposed  to  people  coming  to  Indiana  who  bring  their 
honest  muscle  and  willing  hearts,  seeking  to  make  a  decent  living? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  not  these  people  from  North  Carolina  of  that  class? — A.  I  do 
not  know  ;  it  remains  to  be  seen  whether  they  are  or  are  not. 

Q.  Are  not  these  people  able  to  make  their  way  in  the  world  if  they 
are  given  a  fair  chance? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  as  there  is  much  pros¬ 
pect  of  it  when  we  have  to  run  them  into  a  poor-house  as  soon  as  they 
come  there. 

Q.  Do  not  they  come  there  with  muscle  ? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  And  did  not  you  say  that  a  man  who  had  no  money  had  better 
stay  away? — A.  I  said  if  he  had  to  go  into  a  poor-house  as  soon  as  he 
got  there  he  had  better  and  ought  to  stay  away. 

Q.  Your  conclusion  is,  then,  that  the  immigrant  ought  to  have  money 
before  he  comes  there? — A.  I  think  they  ought  to  have  money  enough 
to  support  themselves  until  they  can  get  work. 

Q.  Your  judgment  is  if  they  do  not  have  money  enough  to  support 
themselves  they  had  better  stay  away  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  would  you  reply  to  the  Irishmen*who  are  flying  from  famine 
and  oppression,  if  they  should  come  to  Indiana? — A.  The  Irishman  can 
generally  take  care  of  himself. 

Q.  He  generally  votes  the  Democratic  ticket,  does  he  not? — A.  Some¬ 
times  he  does. 

Q.  You  think  if  two  or  three  hundred  Irishmen  were  to  come  in  there 
the  Democrats  would  not  “  kick,”  or  would  they? — A.  I  do  not  think 
they  would  put  on  mourning.  They  have  been  very  valuable  citizens  to 
Indiana,  in  the  making  of  canals  and  building  railroads. 

Q.  Do  you  think  your  people  would  object  to  any  more  of  them  com¬ 
ing  in  there? — A.  I  do  not  think  they  would  try  to  bring  them,  and  I 
do  not  think  they  would  ooject  if  they  did  come,  my  dear  Senator. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  a  number  of  people  coming  into  Indiana 
from  Kentucky,  about  election  time? — A.  Yes,  sir — in  Republican  news¬ 
papers. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


341 


Q.  Did  you  ever  bear  of  any  Democrats  protesting  against  it  ? — A. 
No,  sir  ;  I  do  not  suppose  they  thought  it  was  necessary  to  notice  that 
charge.  Our  idea  is  that  that  charge  is  made  as  a  counter-irritant. 

Q.  I  am  told  that  your  charge  as  to  the  negroes  is  made  as  a  counter- 
irritant  to  the  one  about  the  people  from  Kentucky  ? — A.  I  never  heard 
of  any  such  charge  against  the  Democratic  party,  but  I  have  heard  that 
the  Republicans  have  brought  negroes  over  from  Kentucky  time  and 
again. 

Q.  You  stated  that  the  colored  men  Isler  and  Williams  dictated  every 
word  in  those  statements'? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  think  they  were  pretty  intelligent  men? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
but  I  have  no  doubt  Mr.  Maynard  and  Mr.  East,  who  are  scholars, 
changed  the  grammar  somewhat. 

Q.  You  say  they  dictated  every  word  ? — A.  YYs,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  we  will  let  that  drop  there? — A.  Yes,  sir;  we  will  let  it 
drop. 

Mr.  AYindom.  It  was  somewhat  remarkable  was  the  reason  I  spoke  so 
closely  of  it. 

The  Witness.  Yes,  sir;  these  are  remarkable  times. 

Q.  Well,  this  man  Heath — when  did  you  meet  him  ? — A.  How  did  you 
get  the  information  that  I  met  him  ? 

Mr.  Windom.  I  was  told  so. 

The  Witness.  I  said  that  I  did  not  see  him  at  all. 

Q.  Did  anybody  telegraph  to  Lewmau  that  this  man  was  coming  to 
Greencastle? — A.  There  was  no  such  telegram  sent  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Was  not  a  messenger  sent  there0? — A.  There  was. 

Q.  Who  sent  him  °? — A.  I  sent  him. 

Q.  How  came  you  to  send  him  ? — A.  I  understood  that  Heath  was  in 
close  consultation  with  Holloway  and  Denny  and  was  going  there  to 
Greeneastle  to  see  the  postmaster  and  make  arrangements  to  import  the 
darkeys;  so  I  sent  Mr.  Baker  to  go  and  inform  Lawman  and  Mattison 
of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  he  had  made  an  affidavit? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  it? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  what  it  was? — A.  I  had  heard  that  he  said  the  ob¬ 
ject  was  to  get  the  negroes  out  of  North  Carolina  in  time  not  to  be  enu¬ 
merated  in  the  census,  and  info  Indiana  in  time  to  be  counted  there. 

Q.  Who  told  you  that? — A.  My  clerk. 

Q.  The  one  who  made  the  writing? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  directions  did  you  give  to  this  clerk  as  the  body-guard  of 
Heath  ? — A.  He  was  not  a  body-guard. 

Q.  Well,  forerunner? — A.  Yes,  sir;  forerunner.  I  wanted  him  to  go 
before  and  give  the  glad  tidings  to  the  Democracy  of  Putnam  County. 

Q.  Wrhat  did  you  tell  him  ? — A.  I  am  sorry,  my  dear  Senator,  but  I 
canuot  tell  you  now. 

Q.  Well,  the  substance  of  it? — A.  I  think  I  said  to  go  and  tell  them 
that  this  man  was  coming,  and  that  there  was  a  scheme  to  import  ne¬ 
groes  into  their  midst. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  him  they  were  coming? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  he  (Heath)  was  the  advance  agent? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  tell  Lewman  how  to  palm  himself  off*  on  this  fel¬ 
low  as  a  Republican  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  tell  them  down  there  how  to  receive  him? — A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  they  did  receive  him? — A.  Only  as  I  have 
heard  of  it. 


312 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


Q.  This  man  whom  you  sent  was  the  same  one  who  had  taken  the 
statement  from  Heath? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  the  same  man. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  when  he  returned  that  he  had  communicated  with 
Lew  man  ? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  that  Lewman  told  the  man  he  (L.)  was  postmas¬ 
ter? — A.  He  said  they  met  him  at  the  depot;  but  I  do  not  think  he 
said  that  Lewman  told  him  he  was  postmaster. 

Q.  Did  lie  tell  you  of  the  conference  between  Lewman  and  Heath  ? — 
A.  1  think  he  left  on  the  early  train  next  morning. 

Q.  What  did  he  report  to  you  ? — A.  He  reported  that  the  darkey  had 
got  there  and  had  been  received  by  Lewman  ;  but  I  cannot  remember 
all  that  he  said. 

Q.  What  do  you  think,  anyhow,  of  that  conspiracy  to  cheat  this  poor 
darkey? — A.  Well,  1  did  not  consider  it  of  enough  importance  to  think 
about. 

Q.  You  thought  it  important  enough  to  send  a  man  ahead  of  him  ? — 
A.  I  thought  it  important  enough  to  send  a  clerk  to  Greeucastle,  and 
he  came  back  and  said  the  fellow  had  gotten  there. 

Q.  Cannot  you  remember  anything  more  that  he  said? — A.  Well,  he 
stated  that  Lewman  met  the  man,  andLewinan  told  me  afterwards  that 
he  did  meet  him  and  had  gotten  the  papers,  or  whatever  papers  he  had 
with  him,  from  him. 

Q.  Did  your  clerk  see  the  papers  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  but  I  have  seen  them 
since. 

Q.  What  did  Lewman  tell  you  he  told  the  man  ? — A.  I  do  not  remem¬ 
ber. 

Q.  Did  not  he  think  it  was  a  pretty  good  joke  that  he  had  deceived 
the  negro  and  made  him  think  he  (Lewman)  was  a  Kepublican  ? — A.  He 
never  told  me  that. 

Q.  He  swore  to  it  here  ? — A.  He  told  me  he  took  him  to  a  hotel. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  one  playing  a  trick  on  one  of  these  men  in 
your  office  and  making  believe  he  was  a  Kepublican  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I 
do  not. 

Q.  You  heard  your  clerk  and  other  witnesses  make  the  statement  yes¬ 
terday? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  that  in  their  testimony  they  said  they  played  Ke¬ 
publican  on  a  darkey  and  got  this  statement  out  of  him  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  heard  your  clerk  say  he  kept  out  of  his  (Heath’s)  sight  at 
Greeucastle,  because  he  had  played  such  a  joke  on  him  at  Indianapolis  ? 
— A.  Yres,  sir.  There  are  several  offices  in  the  auditor’s  department, 
and  I  am  in  the  back  part  of  the  building  and  do  not  see  the  clerks 
always. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  generally  about  how  many  there  were  in  that  squad 
which  passed  up  by  the  State-house? — A.  It  would  be  nothing  but  a 
guess,  and  I  would  not  pretend  to  say  it  would  be  correct. 

Q.  Give  us  an  idea? — A.  Well,  I  should  judge,  from  the  space  they 
occupied,  there  must  have  been  seventy-five. 

Q.  And  you  think  less  than  half  of  them  were  voters? — A.  I  think 
there  were  not  one-half  who  were. 

Q.  Do  you  think  one-fourth  were? — A.  YYs,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  the  calls  made  to  them  from  the  State- 
house? — A.  I  do  not  know.  I  was  at  ni3r  desk,  but  there  was  a  good 
deal  of  laughing  from  some  of  the  young  men  on  the  sidewalk.  They 
had  been  talking  to  them,  I  think. 

Q.  Were  they  making  sport  ot  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  was  emigrant  himself  who  made  that  remark  you 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


343 


quoted  ? — A.  It  was  a  man  in  the  crowd,  near  the  middle  of  the  proces¬ 
sion. 

Q.  It  was  a  little  political  jeering  between  the  two  parties  ? — A.  I  did 
not  suppose  so  until  this  man  made  this  remark,  and  then  I  supposed 
lie  thought  he  was  coming  to  Indiana  to  vote. 

Q.  Those  were  Democratic  clerks  who  were  about  ? — A.  There  were 
Democratic  clerks  in  the  door,  but  I  do  not  know  whether  these  people 
on  the  sidewalks  were  Democrats  or  not. 

Q.  May  it  not  have  been  Democratic  negroes  who  answered  back  ? — 
A.  There  are  not  many  of  that  kind,  and  Ido  not  think  they  would  an¬ 
swer  back  that  way  at  the  State-house. 

By  Senator  VANCE : 


Q.  Will  you  give  your  reasons  for  believing  that  the  negroes  will  be 
better  off  in  the  South  than  in  the  North? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  please  ? — A.  I  believe  that  in  the  Southern  States,  where 
the  negroes  were  raised  in  tiie  same  community  with  the  whites,  the 
whites  are  kinder  to  them  than  they  are  in  the  Northern  States  where 
they  have  not  mixed  so  intimately  together  as  in  the  Southern  States. 
It  seems  to  me  they  can  do  better  in  their  old  homes  than  in  strange 
States  like  Ohio  and  Indiana.  When  I  was  in  New  Orleans  in  1870 — 
in  November — there  were  some  thirty  or  forty  negroes  there,  of  the 
most  intelligent  class,  who  called  upon  the  gentlemen  from  the  North¬ 
ern  States.  In  talking  with  them  I  asked  them  why  it  was  so  many 
negroes  voted  the  Democratic  ticket.  One  of  them  said  that  they  were 
naturally  Republicans,  and  they  looked  to  it  as  the  party  that  freed 
and  enfranchised  them;  that  they  had  no  quarrel  with  the  Republican 
party  of  the  country,  but  that  carpet  bag  rule  in  Louisiana  was  intoler¬ 
able;  that  it  had  confiscated  twenty  millions  of  dollars  of  their  prop¬ 
erty.  Major  Bascom  who  was  there  (an  Ohio  man)  said  he  was  at  the 
election  in  East  Feliciana  Parish,  and  he  never  saw  a  quieter  one.  The 
electioneering  was  done  mostly  by  negroes.  There  was  a  Tilden  and 
Hendricks  club  of  twelve  or  thirteen  hundred  members,  and  Governor 
Wickliffe  headed  the  ticket,  to  whom  the  people,  black  and  white,  all 
feel  kind.  I  think  the  people  of  the  South  like  them ;  they  elect  them 
to  office,  while  such  a  thing  as  electing  a  colored  man  to  office  is  unknown 
in  the  North,  except  in  one  case — the  city  of  Cincinnati.  There  a  very 
respectable  colored  gentleman,  named  Williams,  waselected.  There  was 
an  exciting  election  and  a  long  ticket,  but  there  were  twenty  six  hundred 
Republicans  who  stopped  and  took  time  to  read  the  ticket  and  scratch 
his  name. 

Q.  Did  he  fall  that  far  behind  the  vote,  or  the  vote  of  his  party?— 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Bv  Senator  Window: 


Q.  When  was  that  election  in  East  Felicianato  which  you  referred? — 
A.  In  1876. 

Q.  I  suppose  you  have  never  heard  of  any  bulldozing  or  anything  of 
that  kind  in  Louisiana ? — A.  Iam  surprised  that  you  should  ask  me 
that. 


Q.  You  have  heard  of  it  then  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 
q>.  You  do  not  believe  much  of  it  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  troubles  down  there  now  ? — A.  Not  much 
since  they  got  rid  of  the  carpet-bag  rule. 

Q.  A  good  many  of  them  have  left  there  in  the  last  few  years  ? — A.  I 
do  not  know. 

Q.  Yrou  think  the  great  curse  of  the  country  is  carpet-bag  rule? — A. 
Yes,  sir  ;  I  emphatically  think  so. 


344 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  You  do  not  believe  any  of  those  stories  of  bulldozing? — A.  I  do 
not  believe  much  of  it. 

Q.  You  do  not  believe  in  “  tissue  ballots”  either? — A.  I  have  one,  I 
think,  from  South  Carolina  that  is  called  a  “  pudding  ticket” — a  Repub¬ 
lican  ticket. 

Q.  How  are  they  fixed  ? — A.  White  men  fix  them  and  the  negroes  vote 
them. 

Q.  Do  you  justify  the  use  of  tissue  ballots? — A.  I  do  not  know  any¬ 
thing  about  the  use  of  them.  White  men  in  the  South,  I  suppose,  are 
the  same  as  in  Minnesota.  You  like  to  carry  your  elections  and  so  do 
they. 

Q.  We  do  not  like  to  carry  our  elections  by  stuffing  ballot-boxes. — A. 
We  do  not  know  about  that.  1  have  not  been  up  there  to  see.  Indiana 
does  not  do  it,  and  still  we  like  to  carry  the  elections,  and  when  we 
elect  men  we  like  to  have  them  put  in,  and  not  counted  out. 

Q.  You  do  not  count  out  in  Indiana? — A.  No,  sir;  we  do  not  count 
out  anybody.  We  do  not  believe  in  the  processes  of  Kellogg  and  the 
returning-board  in  Louisiana. 

Q.  And  never  stuff  ballot  boxes? — A.  The  Democrats  often  protest 
against  the  Republicans  stuffing  the  ballot-boxes,  but  I  never  heard  of 
the  Democrats  stuffing  any. 

Q.  And  you  do  not  approve  of  bulldozing,  I  presume  ? 

The  Witness.  What  is  bulldozing? 

Mr.  Windom.  It  is  going  out  with  shot-guns,  red  shirts,  rifles,  and 
clubs,  and  riding  around  at  night,  killing  and  murdering  people  on  ac¬ 
count  of  their  politics. 

The  Witness.  Do  you  find  that  definition  in  Webster’s  Dictionary? 

Mr.  Windom.  I  am  giving  you  my  definition. 

The  Witness.  I  will  say  this,  that  I  know  of  nothing  of  the  kind,  ex¬ 
cept  as  1  have  heard  it  produced  here  in  Congress. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Windom.)  And  what  do  you  think  of  it,  as  thus  t>roduced  ? 
— A.  I  think  they  produced  what  is  not  true. 


By  Senator  Blair: 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  twenty-six  hundred  Republicans  scratched 
the  name  of  Williams  in  Cincinnati? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  my  informa¬ 
tion. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  were  Republicans? — A.  I  do  not  kuow  of  any 
Democrats  voting  that  ticket. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that  this  falling  off  of  his  vote  was  due  to  his 
color? — A.  He  was  represented  to  be  the  most  respectable  man  on  his 
ticket,  and  the  falling  oft  was  therefore  on  account  of  his  color,  I  sup¬ 


pose. 

Q.  What  is  your  authority  for  making  that  statement — that  “he  was 
the  most  respectable  man  on  his  ticket”? — A.  I  make  it  from  seeing  it 
in  the  newspapers  at  the  time  and  since.  I  do  not  know  that  any  news¬ 
paper  said  it  in  so  many  words,  but  from  what  they  said  of  him  and  the 
others  with  him,  I  judged  so  for  myself. 

Q.  Why  did  you  judge  so  ? — A.  lean  give  you  no  special  reasons, 
except  that  I  judged  from  my  reading  about  him. 

Q.  Where  did  you  read  anything  about  him  ? — A.  The  Cincinnati 
Enquirer  said  before  the  election  that  he  was  going  to  be  scratched, 
and  all  the  papers  said  nevertheless  he  was  a  man  of  high  character. 

Q.  The  Enquirer  is  a  Democratic  paper  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  there 
were  notices  of  the  case  in  all  the  other  papers.  I  read  the  Enquirer 
more  than  the  others. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  345 

Q.  You  saw  some  notices  of  the  fact  in  other  papers,  though  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  the  information  you  have  on  the  subject  you  got  from  news¬ 
papers? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  from  politicians. 

Q.  Do  not  you  know  that  he  was  scratched  on  account  of  his  charac¬ 
ter,  and  that  it  was  charged  upon  him  that  he  got  money  here  in  Wash¬ 
ington  by  swindling,  and  the  colored  aien  scratched  him  on  that  ac¬ 
count? — A.  No,  sir;  I  never  heard  of  that. 

Mr.  Blair.  Well,  that  is  the  charge  that  was  made  against  him. 

The  Chairman.  I  am  well  acquainted  with  that  canvas,  and  I  say  I 
never  heard  of  it  any  time  or  any  where  till  now. 

The  witness  was  thereupon  discharged. 


STATEMENT  BY  O.  S.  B.  WALL. 


O.  S.  B.  Wall  arose  and  said  :  Mr.  Chairman,  I  desire  to  make  a 
statement  upon  that  last  point  about  Mr.  Williams.  Mr.  Williams 
came  here  to  this  city  and  stopped  here  awhile  to  establish  a  newspa¬ 
per.  He  wanted  to  get  subscriptions,  and  Mr.  Douglass,  Mr.  Langston, 
and  myself  gave  subscriptions.  He  went  off  and  took  the  subscriptions 
in  his  pocket.  It  was  talked  of  freely,  and  I  talked  of  it  in  Cincinnati 
when  I  was  there  in  the  convention  to  nominate  Hayes,  and  I  have  heard 
it  was  talked  about  to  him  (Williams). 

Q.  (By  the  Chairman.)  You  think  that  accounts  for  his  running  be¬ 
hind  his  ticket? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir;  I  think  it  might  have  had  an 
effect  of  that  kind. 

Adjourned  to  Friday,  February  13,  18S0,  at  10.30  a.  m. 


TESTIMONY  OF  HUGHES  EAST. 

'  Washington,  D.  C.,  February  13,  1SS0. 

Committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment  and  proceeded  to  take  testi¬ 
mony  as  follows  : 

Present,  Senator  Voorhees,  chairman  ;  also  Senators  Vance,  Pendle¬ 
ton,  Windom,  and  Blair. 

Hughes  East  was  recalled  by  the  chairman. 

By  the  Chairmans 

Question.  Mr.  East,  have  you  any  extracts  from  Bepublican  news¬ 
papers  on  that  subject? — Answer.  Do  you  mean  as  to  the  emigration  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir. — A.  I  have  a  few  extracts  from  some  of  the  newspapers. 

Q.  From  what  papers  ? — A.  From  the  Indianapolis  Leader,  the  colored 
organ  there,  and  some  extracts  from  the  Vincennes  Commercial.  Here 
is  one  from  the  Commercial  : 

The  colored  people  from  the  South  who  want  work  can  get  it  in  Indiana.  Let  them 
come  with  a  boom. 

Another  one  : 

We  believe  that  the  negroes  have  a  right,  under  the  circumstances,  to  come  to  Indi¬ 
ana;  and  we  hope  they  will  come  in  such  numbers  as  to  redeem  the  State  from  Demo¬ 
cratic  rule. 

Q.  What  sort  of  paper  is  that  ? — A.  That  is  a  white  paper. 


346 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  What  sort  of  paper  is  the  Leader  ? — A.  The  Leader  is  a  Republi¬ 
can  paper. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  the  manner  in  which  a  certain  sum  of  money 
was  being  raised  to  bring  a  number  of  emigrants  to  Indiana  who  had 
been  stopped  here  for  want  of  means  ? — A.  1  have  a  statement  here  that 
about  one  hundred  and  fifty  of  these  people  were  here  in  this  city,  un¬ 
able  to  proceed.  It  is  an  extract  from  a  letter  of  Mr.  O.  S.  B.  Wall, 
president  of  the  Emigrant  Aid  Society.  He  says  : 

We  have  about  exhausted  the  resources  of  the  charitable.  These  people  have  no 
sympathy  with  the  exodus,  as  they  are  rebel  sympathizers.  We  have  hopes  that  the 
State  of  Indiana  will  help  us. 

Yours,  O.  S.  B.  WALL. 


That  was  published  in  the  Leader,  the  colored  organ  at  Indianapolis. 
Soon  after  that  a  dispatch  was  sent  to  have  credited  to  the  Baltimore  & 
Ohio  Railroad  $625,  and  these  negroes  .would  come  on.  I  am  informed 
that  the  money  was  raised.  The  matter  of  raising  the  money  was  placed 
in  the  hands  of  a  committee;  and  Mr.  Wood,  who  is  here,  and  who  was 
a  member  of  that  committee,  told  me  yesterday  that  the  money  was 
raised  and  the  men  came  on. 

Q.  Does  Mr.  Wood  know  how  the  money  was  raised? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
he  said  Mr.  Bagby  had  more  to  do  with  the  matter  than  he  had. 

Q.  That  is  all  you  know  of  the  money  branch  of  the  case? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  I  have  heard  a  few  other  things,  but  that  is  about  all. 


By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  You  do  not  know  anything  about  the  raising  of  any  money  your¬ 
self  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not  help  raise  it,  but  I  understood  that  it  was 
raised. 


Q.  Where? — A.  In  Indianapolis. 

Q.  How  much? — A.  Enough  to  bring  the  men. 

Q.  What  men  ? — A.  This  party  that  were  here  ? 

Q.  You  have  simply  heard  that  it  was  raised  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anybody  in  Indiana  who  was  supposed  to  have 
assisted  in  raising  it? — A.  That  is  all  I  know  about  it. 


TESTIMONY  OF  L.  C.  MORRIS. 

L.  C.  Morris  was  sworn  and  examined  as  follows: 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Mr.  Morris,  where  doyou  reside  ? — Answer.  In  Indianapolis. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  there? — A.  I  am  a  railroad  passenger  agent. 

Q.  Of  what  firm  are  you  a  member? — A.  I  am  connected  with  Mor¬ 
ris  &  Mills. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  Indianapolis? — A.  I  have  lived  in 
Indianapolis  five  years;  I  was  raised  near  there. 

Q.  How  do  you  describe  your  business?— A.  As  a  railroad  passenger 
agent,  to  solicit  emigration  business. 

Q.  Are  you  employed  by  the  railroads  ? — YEs,  sir  ;  all  of  them. 

Q.  Then  you  are  in  the  railroad  business? — A.  No,  sir,  I  am  not; 
nor  am  I  in  that  part  of  the  firm  of  Morris  &  Mills. 

Q.  Mr.  Morris,  state  to  us  what  you  know  of  money  being  raised  to 
send  negroes  to  Greencastle  by  Mr.  Reynolds. — A.  I  learned  that  there 
was  a  party  coming  through,  and  I  was  interested  in  having  them  come 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


347 


over  the  Vandalia.  road.  I  found  that  Reynolds  had  something  to  do 
with  it,  and  I  said  to  him  that  I  wanted  them  to  go  that  way.  I  want¬ 
ed  him  to  give  me  the  numbers  of  the  tickets ;  he  said  he  would  give 
them  to  me  and  he  did  so. 

Q.  How  many  tickets  did  he  give  you  the  numbers  of  ? — A.  Of  twen- 

tv  seven  tickets. 

• 

Q.  He  gave  you  the  numbers  and  he  gave  you  the  tickets  ? — A.  No, 
sir;  l  asked  him  to  give  me  the  tickets  and  their  numbers.  It  was  neces¬ 
sary  to  show  up  the  business  over  the  lines  of  road;  and  that  was  the 
only  way  in  which  we  could  do  it. 

Q.  Do  you  think  you  were  instrumental  in  getting  them  to  go  over 
that  road  ?— A.  I  hoped  to  be  so. 

Q.  I  mean  did  you  get  them  to  go,  or  did  Reynolds  get  them  ? — A. 
Well,  sir,  I  was  talking  to  Perry  and  others  to  go  over  that  road,  and 
Reynolds  did  not  seem  to  care  which  way  they  went.  I  tried  tointlu- 
ence  them  to  go  over  that  road  and  they  went. 

Q.  Mr.  Morris,  what  number  of  tickets  did  he  furnish  you'? — A.  He 
did  not  furnish  me  the  tickets;  he  furnished  me  the  numbers  of  twenty- 
seven  full  tickets. 

Q.  Where  did  he  get  those  tickets  ? — A.  He  purchased  them  there  at 
the  Union  depot. 

Q.  He  bought  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  With  his  own  money? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir,  where  the  money 
came  from.  I  saw  him  at  the  window,  and  afterward  he  came  and  gave 
me  the  numbers. 

Q.  He  is  the  railroad  transfer  mail  agent  there,  is  he  not  ? — A.  YYs, 


sir. 


Q.  Employed  under  the  government? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  don’t  know  whether  he  was  buying  those  tickets  with 
his  own  money  or  somebody  else’s? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  did  not  tell  you? — A.  Nothing  was  said  about  the  money  part 
of  it. 


Q.  And  you  did  not  feel  sufficient  curiosity  to  inquire  ? — A.  No,  sir 
we  had  only  a  few  moments’  conversation. 

Q.  All  you  wanted,  I  suppose,  was  for  the  Vandalia  Road  to  carry 
the  passengers? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  What  conversation  did  you  have  with  anybody  with  regard  to 
where  the  money  was  raised  to  enable  Perry  and  Williams  to  come  back 
to  Washington  City  ? — A.  I  think  the  first  I  knew  of  it  was  when  the 
money  was  produced  to  get  the  tickets.  It  was  handed  to  me,  and  1 
procured  their  tickets,  checked  their  baggage,  and  they  started  East. 

Q.  Who  handed  it  to  you  ? — A.  My  brother,  V.  K.  Morris. 

Q.  What  was  said  at  the  time? — A.  Nothing  was  said  at  the  time; 
but  a  few  days  afterward,  in  our  uptown  office,  I  got  an  idea  that  the 
money  was  handed  to  him  or  to  Mr.  Mills,  either  by  Perry  himself  or 
by  Colonel  Jordan. 

Q.  Colonel  Jordan  is  register  in  bankruptcy,  is  he  not? — A.  AYs,  sir. 

Q.  And  Perry  and  Williams  were  returning  here  on  this  business — 
to  bring  more  emigrants ?  —  A.  That  is  the  understanding,  as  I  learned. 
They  had  not  their  railroad  arrangements  fully  made  at  that  time. 

Q.  They  were  railroad  agents,  and  were  returning  here  for  that  pur¬ 
pose? — A.  I  suppose  that  is  what  they  were  coming  for. 

Q.  You  understood  that  it  became  necessary  for  them  to  return  to 
Washington  ? — A.  Their  object  was  to  return  to  Washington,  and  to 
North  Carolina,  but  to  stop  here  and  take  the  Pennsylvania  Railroad. 
I  sent  for  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  agent,  who  makes  his  office  with  me, 


248 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


and  he  got  there  in  time  to  telegraph  here  to  send  them  on  to  Baltimore, 
which  was  done. 

Q.  You  understood  that  they  were  to  return  here  on  emigrant  busi¬ 
ness? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  money  was  furnished  to  help  them  on  in  it? — A.  I  do 
not  know,  sir. 

Q.  Money  was  furnished  them  to  come  to  Washington  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  State  whether  you  ever  had  any  communication  with  or  from  any 
member  of  the  State  Central  Republican  Committee,  or  anybody  em¬ 
ployed  by  them,  on  the  subject  of  this  emigration  business. — A.  I  do 
not  know  certainly;  I  believe  there  was  a  gentleman  who  clerks  there, 
who  came  down  and  inquired  of  me  how  much  it  would  cost  to  send 
these  people  to  Greencastle  and  Terre  Haute. 

Q.  What  was  his  name? — A.  J.  W.  Horton. 

Q.  You  say  he  clerks  for  the  State  Ceutral  Republican  Committee? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  he  a  full  clerk  there? — A.  I  think  he  is  a  deputy  clerk. 

Q.  Well,  he  is  employed  there  anyway? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  made  inquiry  to  know  what  it  would  cost  to  send  these 
people  to  Greencastle  and  Terre  Haute? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  that  before  or  after  this  lot  was  sent? — A.  It  was  before. 

Q.  Did  .you  tell  him  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  gave  him  the  rate. 

Q.  Did  he  make  a  memorandum  of  it  ? — A.  No,  sir  :  I  think  not. 

Q.  Did  the  conversation  between  you  stop  there  ? — A.  No,  sir;  we 
talked  on  in  a  general  way  as  to  the  number  that  were  coming,  and  all 
that. 

Q.  What  did  he  say? — A.  He  asked  how  many  I  thought  had  gone 
out,  and  how  many  would  come.  That  was  about  the  substance  of  it. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  flow  many  colored  people  have  come  to  Indiana  in  this  exodus 
movement? — A.  I  am  not  aware,  but  I  should  judge  some  seven  or 
eight  hundred. 

Q.  What  has  become  of  them  ? — A.  They  are  distributed  around 
among  the  counties  near  to  our  county. 

Q.  Among  what  kind  of  people  ? — A.  Among  Republicans. 

Q.  I  ihean,  are  they  among  farmers  or  manufacturers? — A.  Farmers 
principally,  if  not  wholly. 

Q.  Have  they  pretty  generally  found  employment? — A.  Mr.  Perry 
stopped  there  at  my  office  pretty  generally,  and  he  told  me  they  had 
done  so,  and  so  did  others. 

Q.  To  what  extent  have  they  been  employed  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  as 
to  them  all ;  I  know  but  few  of  them  personally  ;  there  are  only  a  few 
who  have  employment  that  I  know  personally. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  they  have  pretty  generally  found  employ¬ 
ment,  and  will  get  along,  or  are  they  in  a  church  out  there  starving,  as 
has  been  stated  here? — A.  My  understanding  is  that  they  went  away 
into  the  country  mostly  and  were  provided  for. 

Q.  Are  there  any  of  them  who  are  in  the  church  now  ? — A.  I  am  not 
aware  of  any  who  are  in  the  church. 

Q.  You  think  that  those  in  the  State  outside  of  the  church  are  doing 
well  ? — A.  I  have  heard  of  some  exceptions,  but  generally  I  think  they 
are  doing  as  well  as  could  be  expected,  considering  how  they  came 
there. 

Q.  Did  you  say  that  there  are  none  in  the  church  there  now  ? — A.  I 
am  not  able  to  say  ;  there  are  none  who  are  out  of  employment  that  I 
know  of  personally,  except  those  in  the  church. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  S  3UTHERN  STATES 


349 


Q.  How  many  arc;  at  that  church  ? — A..  I  could  not  say,  but  I  should 
infer  there  must  have  been  over  a  hundred  at  the  time  I  left.  Eighty- 
seven  came  in  at  one  time,  and  there  were  some  children  who  were  not 
enumerated. 

Q.  That  is  their  headquarters  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  sort  of  like  the  emigrant  headquarters,  I  presume,  iu  New 
York  City? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  the  arrivals  continuing  ? — A.  The  parties  are  not  so  numer¬ 
ous  as  they  were,  and  there  are  not  so  many  in  the  parties  when  they 
arrive  now. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  expected  increase  in  the  numbers  arriving? — 
A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  the  Republicans  and  others  generally  expect  any  increasing 
influx  of  them  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  that. 

Q.  What  are  the  chances  for  the  Republicans  carrying  the  State  if 
the  people  get  there  before  the  first  of  May? — A.  I  do  not  think  that 
will  be  dependent  upon  these  colored  people. 

Q.  You  do  not  think  that  the  Republicans  are  dependent  on  these 
people  to  carry  the  State? — A.  I  do  not  think  they  are. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  more  who  are  to  come? — A  No,  sir;  I  am 
not  aware  of  any. 

Q.  Then  the  contributions  that  were  made,  if  any  were  made  by  Re¬ 
publicans,  were  for  the  purpose  of  taking  care  of  these  people  there  who 
were  suffering?  And  then  you  know  of  the  payment  for  those  twenty- 
seven  tickets  to  Greencastle? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  not  that  in  the  nature  of  a  charity? — A.  I  suppose  so,  as 
they  had  to  be  supported  somewhere. 

Q.  Either  there  or  in  Indianapolis  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  I  do  not  know 
where  the  money  came  from. 

Q.  I  asked  you  if  the  use  of  that  money  to  send  these  people  to  Green- 
castle  was  not  really  a  charity  ?  —  A.  I  do  not  know  whether  they  had 
any  money  or  not;  I  think  some  of  them  had  ;  one  man,  I  heard,  had 
$1,200  and  another  had  a  large  sum  of  money. 

Q.  What  was  the  object  of  buying  tickets  for  these  people  if  they 
could  buy  them  themselves? — A.  I  understood  they  bought  the  tickets 
for  the  poor  and  needy. 

Q.  Then  it  was  a  charity  ? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fair  inference  that  the  buying  of  these  twenty- seven 
tickets  under  the  circumstances  was  a  charitable  act? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it 
was  if  they  were  needy  and  could  not  buy  them  themselves. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  are  concerned  you  acted  entirely  iu  a  business  way? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  entirely. 

Q.  Yrou  did  not  act  for  political  reasons  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  a  clerk  at  the  Republican  committee  headquarters  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  that  he  talked  to  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  talk  with  Democrats  ? — A.  lres,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  did  not  mean  to  say  that  he  connected  the  Republican 
party  with  this  movement,  because  he  talked  to  you  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I 
did  not  mean  to  be  so  understood.  I  do  not  connect  the  conversation 
with  the  central  committee  at  all. 

Q.  So  far  as  \ou  know  and  believe,  is  the  exodus  of  the  southern  ne¬ 
groes  a  political  movement? — A.  Originally  I  think  it  was  not. 

Q.  What  is  it  now? — A.  1  think  it  is. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  In  speaking  of  Mr.  Ilorton,  you  only  meant  to  state  the  fact  that 


350 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


a  deputy  clerk  of  tlie  Republican  State  central  committee  of  Indiana 
came  down  to  you  and  asked  you  how  much  it  would  cost  to  send  these 
people  to  Greencastle  and  Terre  Haute? — A.  I  meant  to  say  that  Mr. 
Horton  came  up  only  as  a  gentleman  who  knew  me  and  asked  me  that 
question. 

Q.  You  think  he  left  his  clerkship  behind  when  became  to  you? — A. 
I  do  not  know,  sir. 

Q.  He  did  not  tell  you  so,  did  he? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  about  the  depot  most  of  the  time,  are  you  not? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  I  have  a  copy  of  the  Indianapolis  News,  of  the  31st  of  January, 
1880.  Is  that  a  respectable  paper? — A.  I  believe  it  is;  it  often  says 
things,  however,  that  I  do  not  agree  with. 

Q.  It  is  the  evening  paper,  is  it  not? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  see  an  article  here  wherein  it  says  that  “the  party  of  negroes 
which  arrived  here  last  night  are  still  in  the  waiting  room  at  the  depot,’7 
&c. ;  is  that  the  party  you  referred  to  as  arriving  ?  Or  do  you  remem¬ 
ber  of  a  crowd  being  huddled  up  there  for  two  or  three  days  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  I  think  there  was  a  crowd  came  in  there,  and  staid  several  days. 
But  if  they  remained  longer  than  Saturday  I  did  not  know  it. 


F.  A.  Arnold,  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman: 

Question.  Where  do  you  live  ? — Answer.  Greencastle,  Ind. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation? — A.  I  am  a  newspaper  publisher. 

Q.  Of  what  paper? — A.  The  Star. 

Q.  Have  you  given  some  attention  to  this  emigration  of  colored  peo¬ 
ple  into  your  county  ? — A.  Well,  my  attention  was  first  called  to  it  by 
articles  published  in  the  paper  called  The  Banner,  published  in  our  town, 
perhaps  at  the  beginning  of  the  summer,  and  I  felt  some  interest  in  the 
matter;  looked  after  it  a  little  in  a  business  way ;  made  some  inquiries 
in  regard  to  it,  and  accidentally  heard  that  circulars  had  been  printed 
in  our  town  and  sent  to  the  South  encouraging  this  emigration.  I  en¬ 
deavored  for  some  time  to  obtain  a  copy,  but  failed.  I  believe  the  first 
copy  of  the  circular  that  I  ever  read  was  furnished  me  by  the  sheriff  of 
our  county,  Mr.  Lewman,  probably  in  December.  They  had  been 
printed  as  early  as  June,  if  I  remember  aright. 

Q.  Here  are  the  articles  which  have  been  produced  before  the  com¬ 
mittee. — A.  I  understand  that  you  have  them  here  in  evidence. 

-  Q.  I  have  a  statement  here,  which  appears  to  have  been  published  in 
your  paper,  which  I  would  like  you  to  look  at  and  see  if  you  identify  it 
as  true  of  your  own  personal  knowledge  ?  (Handing  witness  a  paper.) 
— A.  (Examining.)  Yes,  sir;  this  is  an  interview  with  some  of  those 
colored  people  who  called  at  my  office,  and  obtained  money  to  go  home 
with. 

Q.  An  interview  with  whom  ? — A.  Well,  there  were  four  of  those 
colored  people  from  North  Carolina,  and  a  man  by  the  name  of  McMer- 
riek  was  rather  the  brighter  of  the  four,  and  he  was  spokesman  for  them. 

Q.  Were  they  talking. with  you? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  their  conversation  faithfully  reported  in  that  article  ? — A.  Ares, 
sir;  the  substance  of  it.  It  is  not  in  their  dialect. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  read  that  article. — A.  This  interview  was  on  the 
first  Monday  in  December,  if  I  remember  aright,  and  the  weather  was 
rather  cold. 

We  were  going  to  Kansas,  but  circulars  were  sent  to  our  country  from  Greencastle, 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


351 


Indiana,  saying  we  could  get  good  bouses  there.  Our  delegates  Perry,  and  Williams, 
both  of  whom  are  teachers  ami  preachers,  came  back  and  told  us  that  there  was 
houses  here  for  10,000  colored  people  or  more.  They  said  that  the  people  of  Putnam 
County  would  furnish  work  for  the  colored  people  at  .$15  and  $25  a  month,  cow  and 
calf,  garden,  and  wood  to  burn.  I  arrived;  have  no  home  furnished  me,  and  “boss77 
says  he  cau’t  do  anything  more  for  us.  I  have  a  family  in  South  Carolina,  and  tele¬ 
graphed  them  not  to  come.  In  the  South  I  can  make  a  better  living  than  I  can  here, 
and  not  freezing  to  death.  We  have  nothing  to  wear  but  the  clothes  we  have  on  ;  no 
underclothing;  no  overcoats;  no  warm  shoes  or  stockings,  and  no  money.  The  men 
that  telegraphed  back  to  Carolina  want  to  go  there,  where  they  have  work,  homes, 
and  warm  weather.  I  seen  the  circulars  from  Greencastle  that  were  sent  asking  us  to 
come  up  here.  Massa  Laugsdale  took  charge  of  us  at  Indianapolis  and  brought  us  to 
Greencastle.  In  the  South  we  got  $7  to  $d  a  month,  house  to  live  in,  and  ground  to 
raise  garden  stuff,  corn,  potatoes,  &c.,  and  an  extra  acre  or  two  sometimes;  and  the 
women  can  work  there,  too,  in  the  fields  and  help  support  the  children.  They  prom¬ 
ised  to  pay  our  way  back  if  we  did  uot  like  it  here,  but  they  won’t  keep  their  prom¬ 
ises;  won’t  give  us  homes,  nor  send  us  home. 

The  other  clarkies  in  the  party  seconded  McMerrick's  story  all  the  way  through,  and 
wished  for  a  chance  to  take  the  back  track. 

The  Saturday  afternoon  previously,  a  number  of  these  colored  people 
had  gone  to  Vandalia  depot,  and  had  m  ide  up  a  pony-parse  to  carry 
them  back  to  North  Carolina. 

Q.  Were  they  soliciting  money  from  you  to  help  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  they  succeeded  in  raising  money  enough  to 
carry  them  back? — A.  Well,  I  think  not;  when  they  came  to  my  office 
they  had  a  written  petition  soliciting  contributions.  I  think,  perhaps, 
they  had  a  dollar  or  two  subscribed.  A  few  days  afterwards,  one  of 
my  country  correspondents  wrote  me  that  four  colored  persons,  answer¬ 
ing  the  description  of  the  men  who  had  been  at  my  office,  were  tramp¬ 
ing  eastward,  with  the  intention  of  going  back  to  North  Carolina — as 
he  termed  it,  kicking  sand. 

Q.  Did  you  have  other  interviews  with  others  of  these  emigrants  ? — 
A.  Well,  1  do  not  remember  any.  I  may  have  had  casual  interviews 
with  them — talking  with  them  on  the  street.  Nothing  of  importance, 
however. 

Q.  What  do  you  say  on  the  subject  as  to  whether  there  is  a  demand 
for  labor  for  the  emigrants  in  Putnam  County  ? — A.  I  do  not  believe 
there  is  any  demand  for  it.  I  think  there  is  more  labor  in  our  county 
than  there  is  capital  to  employ  it.  We  have  much  spare  land,  but  no 
means  to  work  it.  Men  have  to  subsist  while  they  work  it. 

Q.  Have  you  observed  whether  any  of  these  emigrants  are  out  of  em¬ 
ployment? — A.  Many  of  them  are  out  of  employment.  I  see  them 
standing  on  the  street  corners.  I  do  not  know  how  many.  I  have  in 
my  pocket  a  copy  of  The  Banner,  the  paper  which  first  encouraged  this 
movement,  containing  a  correspondence  from  Fillmore,  situated  in  the 
township  east  of  us,  in  which  the  correspondent  says — I  do  not  remem¬ 
ber  the  exact  language — the  paragraph  is  this: 

Wheat  is  iu  a  fine  condition  now.  Corn  ground  is  very  scarce ;  a  great  many  are  un¬ 
able  to  secure  what  they  would  like  to  put  iu  corn. 

By  {Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  What  is  the  date  of  that  ? — A.  The  29th  of  January.  I  have  re¬ 
ceived  it  since  I  have  been  here. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  Is  there  any  other  point,  Mr.  Arnold,  on  which  you  wish  to  be 
heard  in  regard  to  this  subject? — A.  1  do  not  know  of  anything  special. 


352 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


TESTIMONY  OF  GENERAL  GEORGE  W.  RUSS. 


General  George  W.  Russ  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  You  may  state  your  name  and  residence. — Answer.  George 
W.  Russ  ;  Indianapolis,  Ind. 

Q.  What  is  your  profession  ? — A.  I  am  adjutant  general  of  the  State. 

Q.  State  whether  you  have  given  any  attention  to  the  emigration  that 
has  taken  place  of  colored  people  into  our  State  from  North  Carolina. 
— A.  I  have,  since  I  learned  of  the  fact  that  negroes  were  being  brought 
into  the  State. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  whether  your  acquaintance  with  the  neighboring 
people  of  Indianapolis  and  Marion  Counties,  and  the  parts  thereabout 
is  general  and  full,  or  otherwise? — A.  I  am  quite  well  acquainted  with 
the  laboring  classes  in  our  city  and  elsewhere  over  the  State. 

Q.  What  do  you  say  as  to  whether  there  is  a  demand  for  labor  that 
would  call  an  emigration  there  at  this  time  ? — A.  I  do  not  think  there 
is  any  demand  at  this  time  that  would  demand  destitute  people  of  any 
color  or  class. 

Q.  You  think  there  is  no  demand  for  laborers  in  our  State,  even  though 
they  were  willing  to  work? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  that  we  have  a  great  many  idle  people  there  who  are 
disposed  to  work  and  cannot  get  it? — A.  A  great  many ;  I  have  seen  a 
great  many. 

Q.  Have  you  looked  into  the  question  of  the  employment  of  these  emi¬ 
grants  since  their  arrival  ? — A.  I  only  know  what  they  have  told  me 
when  they  called  at  my  office. 

Q.  What  have  they  told  you  ? — A.  There  have  been  a  great  many  at 
my  office  who  said  they  failed  in  getting  employment.  Resident  colored 
men  have  also  called  on  me  and  denounced  the  movement,  stating  that 
there  was  no  occasion  for  colored  people  coming  there ;  that  is,  people 
in  their  condition,  their  financial  condition. 

Q.  You  mean  by  that  that  the  resident  colored  people  are  opposed  to 
this  emigration  ? — A.  Some  of  them  are. 

Q.  There  are  politicians  among  the  colored  people  as  well  as  amongst 
the  white  people,  are  there  not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  some  pretty  shrewd  ones. 

Q.  Well,  how  is  it  on  that  point?  Do  the  colored  politicians  oppose 
or  favor  this  emigration? — A.  I  think,  Senator,  with  few  exceptions 
they  oppose  it. 

Q.  Who  do  you  rank  as  the  leading  politicians  of  the  colored  folks  at 
Indianapolis? — A,  Dr.  S.  A.  Elbert,  Moses  K.  Broyles,  James  S.  Hinton, 
and  R.  B.  Bagby. 

Q.  You  named  Dr.  Elbert,  Bagby,  Hinton,  and  Broyles  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  what  is  their  position  on  this  exodus  of  their  race  from  North 
Carolina? — A.  I  think,  with  the  exception  of  Bagby,  the  others  whom 
I  have  named  are  doing  all  they  can  to  assist  this  emigration. 

Q.  To  promote  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  That  is,  the  leaders  of  the  colored  people  there? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
with  the  exception  of  R.  B.  Bagby.  I  suppose  he  objects. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  You  misunderstand  me  or  I  you.  I  asked  you  whether  the  lead¬ 
ing  politicians  of  the  colored  people  of  Indianapolis  were  in  favor  of  or 
opposed  to  it  ? — A.  I  said  with  a  few  exceptions.  I  named  all  the  ex 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


353 


ceptions  and  the  leading  politicians.  I  answered  yon,  and  said  that  I 
thought  those  whom  I  have  named  were  in  favor  of  it  except  Bagby, 
and  he  is  opposed  to  it. 

Bv  Senator  Blair  : 

€/ 

Q.  So  that  your  statement  is  that  the  colored  politicians  are  opposed 
to  the  exodus  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  named  the  colored  politicians.  Did 
you  ask  me  for  the  colored  politicians"? 

Q.  I  said  the  colored  politicians. — A.  I  thought  you  said  the  colored 
population.  I  would  have  to  answer  that  the  majority  of  them  are. 
They  seem  to  be. 

Q.  Hinton  is  quite  a  leading  man  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  about  the  only  col¬ 
ored  man  who  got  a  place  under  the  Republican  party  while  they  were 
in  power  in  our  State,  the  only  one  who  got  a  place  of  any  prominence. 

Q.  Now,  if  I  understood  you  correctly,  the  politicians  of  the  colored 
race  are  disposed  to  favor  this  movement,  while  the  body  of  their  peo¬ 
ple  are  not  as  favorably  inclined  to  it? — A.  I  think  the  large  majority 
of  the  colored  people  of  our  city  are  opposed  to  it. 

Q.  It  is  taxing  their  charity  to  the  utmost,  is  it  not? — A.  They  are 
complaining  bitterly. 

Q.  Do  they  complain  upon  that  poiut? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  they  talked  to  you  in  regard  to  it! — A.  Yes,  sir;  a  great 
many  of  them  or  quite  a  number. 

Q.  Well,  how  do  they  put  their  complaint? — A.  They  say  that  they 
are  a  poor  people,  they  have  too  little  to  live  upon  themselves,  and  to 
tax  them  with  providing  houses  and  sustenance  for  the  emigrants  is 
more  than  they  can  afford. 

Q.  How  do  those  colored  people  now  residents  at  Indianapolis — I  ask 
for  information — how  do  they  account  for  this  avalanche  in  their  midst 
of  their  colored  brethren  from  North  Carolina? — A.  A  great  many  of 
them  seem  to  be  anxious  to  know  the  cause  and  ask  me  such  questions, 
if  I  knew.  I  tell  them  I  do  not;  I  only  had  an  opinion.  Others  have 
expressed  opinions  as  to  the  cause. 

Q.  Do  they  in  any  respect  look  upon  it  as  apolitical  fraud  ? — A.  Some 
of  them  do.  One  colored  man,  quite  an  intelligent  man  among  them, 
has  been  quite  independent  in  his  politics,  but  is  classed  as  a  Republi¬ 
can,  told  me  that  he  was  a  member  of  the  relief  committee  appointed  at  a 
meeting  of  the  colored  people;  that  they  had  a  suspicion  that  other  parties 
were  operating  in  this,  that  is,  that  they  were  interested  in  bringing  the 
parties  there  and  proposed  making  this  committee  responsible  for  their 
relief  or  protection  while  they  were  there,  and  consequently  responsible 
for  any  suffering.  They  appointed  James  S.  Hinton,  so  he  informed 
me,  who  was  a  member  of  the  relief  committee,  to  visit  the  Republican 
State  central  committee  room,  to  learn,  if  possible,  if  there  was  any  other 
arrangement  that  they  were  not  aware  of.  The  informatien  that  Hinton 
reported  to  the  committee  was  that  at  the  State  central  committee  rooms 
he  was  informed  that  Mr.  Byrom,  Hinton,  and  McKay  were  acting  for 
the  committee. 

The  Chairman.  My  attention  was  diverted  for  a  moment. 

The  Witness.  This  relief  committee  appointed  James  S.  Hinton  to 
visit  the  Republican  State  central  committee  rooms,  and  learn,  if  pos¬ 
sible,  if  anything  was  being  doue  that  this  committee  was  not  aware  of, 
any  moneys  that  they  were  collecting  that  they  were  not  handling.  He 
informed  me  that  Hinton  reported  to  the  comm  tee  that  he  was  informed 
at  the  Republican  State  central  committee  ro  ms  that  Mr.  Byrom,  of  In- 

23  EX 


354 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


dianapolis,  and  Captain  McKay,  were  acting  for  the  State  central  com 
mittee. 

Q.  Byrom  and  McKay,  who  are  they! — A.  They  are  both  city  coun- 
cilmen — prominent  men  in  our  State. 

Q.  What  color  are  they! — A.  White. 

Q.  What  is  the  color  of  their  politics  ! — A.  They  are  Republicans! 

Q.  What  were  Byrom  and  McKay  doing  in  these  movements! — A. 
This  committee  were  informed — so  he  told  me — by  Byrom  and  McKay, 
that  Moses  K.  Broyles,  colored,  and  S.  A.  Elbert,  also  colored,  were 
handling  the  funds.  They  notified  both  Byrom  and  McKay — so  he  in¬ 
formed  me — that  they  refused  to  act  longer  for  other  colored  men  who 
were  handling  the  money  collected. 

Q.  Now  what  money  was  he  alluding  to  that  was  collected! — A.  That 
I  do  not  know.  I  am  only  giving  you  the  information  that  he  furnished 
me.  This  committee  appointed  by  the  colored  people  refused  to  act 
longer  as  a  relief  committee  unless  they  had  the  handling  of  the  funds, 
the  money  collected,  or  the  money  used.  This  colored  man  who  told  me 
said  he  would  not  act  no  longer  on  a  relief  committee  if  they  had  to 
bear  the  burden,  and  if  they  could  not  use  the  funds  they  refused  to  act 
longer. 

Q.  Have  you  any  objection  to  giving  the  name  of  your  informant  ? — 
A.  W.  H.  Woods. 

Q.  General,  if  you  have  an  opinion  that  this  is  a  political  movement 
on  the  part  of  certain  prominent  Republicans  in  Indiana  to  get  colored 
voters  in  there  to  control  elections  with,  you  may  give  the  reasons  that 
have  led  you  to  such  a  conclusion  ! — A.  At  first,  Senator,  I  did  not  think 
it  was  a  political  movement ;  I  thought  it  was  got  up  by  colored  men  to 
make  money  from  the  railroad  companies,  but  from  what  I  have  learned 
since,  and  conversations  that  I  have  had  with  white  and  colored  Repub¬ 
licans,  I  have  changed  my  opinion,  and  am  now  of  the  opinion  that  it 
was  a  political  movement  at  that  time. 

Q.  Well,  are  there  any  points  that  you  desire  to  give  as  bearing  upon 
your  change  of  opinion,  and  as  causing  it! — A.  In  conversation  with 
different  parties  who  came  into  the  office,  invariably  I  found  Republican 
politicians  favoring  it.  I  saw  a  subscription  list  for  the  purpose  that 
had  been  taken  around  by  a  colored  man,  upon  which  were  the  names 
of  the  prominent  Republicans  of  our  city,  subscribing  from  $5  to  $10 
each — 1  believe  $10.50;  and  I  have  failed  to  see  the  name  of  any  Dem¬ 
ocrat.  I  asked  this  gentleman  why  he  did  not  call  upon  Democrats,  and 
he  said  that  he  had  instructions  not  to  do  so. 

Q.  Did  a  good  many  colored  men  talk  with  you! — A.  Permit  me  to 
say  that  I  am  considered  quite  a  friend  of  theirs  in  Indianapolis.  I  was 
on  Mr.  Hinton’s  bond  when  he  was  State  commissioner,  and  I  have  done 
a  good  deal  of  work  for  them.  I  have  helped  and  labored,  and  I  suffer 
for  it  to-day. 

Q.  So  that  there  is  not  a  very  marked  hostility  between  you  and  the 
colored  people  of  Indianapolis  ! — A.  No,  there  is  not. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  They  helped  a  little  in  preserving  the  Union  in  the  late  unpleas¬ 
antness! — A.  I  have  always  been  of  the  opinion,  Senator,  and  it  was  my 
opinion  then,  that  we  could  have  had  all  the  honor  of  putting  down  the 
rebellion  without  their  assistance. 

Senator  Blair.  Very  likely;  I  do  not  want  to  interrupt  the  examina¬ 
tion. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  You  say  they  came  and  talked  with  you,  general;  did  not  all  of 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


355 


the  emigrants  come  and  talk  with  you  on  this  subject? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
there  have  been  several  in  there  begging  money. 

Q.  How  did  they  seem  to  be  pleased  with  their  new  homes  ? — A.  Some 
seemed  to  be  very  much  displeased ;  some  seemed  to  be  very  anxious  to 
get  back  to  their  old  places. 

Q.  Recurring  again  to  its  political  character,  have  you  ever  seen  a 
-Republican  newspaper  oppose  this  emigration  or  advise  against  it  ? — A. 
I  have  not. 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  that  where  they  do  not  directly  encourage  it,  they 
abuse  the  Democrats  for  opposing  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  used  to  be  an  old  term  applied  to  the  Democratic  party, 
charging  it  with  sympathizing  with  the  rebellion  ;  how  would  that  term 
describe  the  attitude,  in  your  opinion,  of  the  Republican  parly  in  en¬ 
couraging  the  emigration  of  the  colored  people  into  the  State  of  In¬ 
diana,  taking  the  principles  of  the  leading  men  of  the  town  and  the 
conversation  among  them  as  to  the  immigration  of  North  Carolina  ne¬ 
groes  into  our  State;  that  is  to  sa.v,  do  they  not,  as  a  general  rule,  sym¬ 
pathize  with  the  movement  ? — A.  I  think,  Senator,  that  the  sympathies 
of  the  Republicans  in  Indiana  with  this  movement  are  much  stronger, 
much  more  universal,  than  were  the  Democratic  sympathies  for  the  Con¬ 
federate  cause. 

The  Chairman.  Yres  ;  I  have  not  a  doubt  of  it. 

Senator  Windom.  He  is  stating  it  pretty  strong. 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  I  hold  in  my  hand  a  paper  that  it  seems  to  me  I  have  not  seen 
before,  the  Indianapolis  Journal,  dated  Saturday,  February  12.  It  is  a 
paper  that  has  just  been  laid  down  before  me;  consequently,  you  and  I 
cannot  be  charged  with  having  concocted  the  production  ot  this  testi¬ 
mony,  because  you  have  not  seen  it,  nor  have  I,  and  I  have  not  had 
time  to  read  the  whole  article.  You  identify  this  as  the  Indianapolis 
Journal  of  February  12? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  An  article  headed,  “Our  colored  citizens;  a  meeting  at  the  Col¬ 
ored  Baptist  Church  last  night.  What  has  been  done  by  the  North 
Carolinians,  and  where  the  help  came  from.”  It  is  a  long  article,  au  I 
states  how  the  amount  was  raised  and  how  it  has  been  expended,  as 
follows  : 


The  mass  meeting  held  at  the  Second  Baptist  Church  (colored)  last  night  to  consider 
the  workings  of  the  relief  societies  among  the  colored  immigrants  was  well  attended. 
Rev.  Moses  Broyles  presided.  The  business  of  the  evening  was  the  report  of  the  Em¬ 
igrant  Aid  Society.  At  the  close  of  the  meeting  Mr.  Burley,  of  Bloomington,  Ind., 
engaged  several  of  the  immigrants  to  goto  Monroe  County  to  work  on  farms.  The 
following  is  the  report  of  the  committee  : 

“On  Wednesday  evening,  December  3,  1879,  a  meeting  was  held  in  the  lecture  room 
of  the  Second  Baptist  Church  to  organize  an  aid  or  relief  society  to  care  for  the  col¬ 
ored  emigrants,  as  we  learned  that  some  of  them  were  on  their  way  here  from  North 
Carolina,  and  that  they  would  arrive  here  destitute.  After  the  preliminary  organiza¬ 
tion  of  the  meeting,  the  object  of  the  same  being  stated,  on  motion  it  was  voted  that 
a  society  be  organized  to-night  for  the  purpose  of  helping  and  caring  for  those  peo¬ 
ple  when  they  arrive  here,  similar  to  and  in  co-operation  with  the  relief  society  which 
was  organized  at  the  A.  M.  E.  Church  November  24.  It  was  further  resolved  that 
the  organization  be  known  as  the  Christian  Emigration  Aid  Society,  Rev.  Moses 
Broyles,  president;  Rev.  Wm.  Singleton,  vice-president;  Mr.  G.  W.  Prince,  secretary  ; 
Mr.  Conrad  Burley,  corresponding  secretary ;  and  Rev.  J.  R.  Raynor,  treasurer,  with 
the  other  three  Baptist  ministers,  viz:  N.  Simons,  Thomas  Smith,  and  C.  C.  Wilson, 
honorary  officers,  as  they  brought  their  churches  into  the  organization.  The  society 
organized  with  the  representatives  from  the  six  colored  Baptist  churches  of  this  city. 
There  was  also  an  executive  committee  appointed  to  co-operate  with  the  other  officers 
of  the  society,  consisting  of  two  members  from  each  church,  Messrs.  R.  B.  Turner  and 
B.  Rankins,  of  the  Second  Church  ;  Messrs.  Jesse  McCroclilin  audThomas  Pentacost,  of 
the  Mount  Zion  Church;  Messrs.  Wesley  Jackson  and  Stephen  Williams,  of  the  New 


356 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Bethel  Church;  Messrs.  David  Tucker  and  Wm.  Whitehead,  of  the  Olivet  Church; 
Messrs.  Siah  Russell  and  Solomon  Moss,  of  the  Tabernacle  Church  ;  Messrs.  Thomas 
Durham  and  Charles  Williams,  of  the  Calvary.  All  these  officers  and  ministers  consti¬ 
tute  the  executive  board  of  the  organization.  This  board  has  been  holding  weekly 
meetings  since  that  time,  and  appointing  sub-committees  to  meet  the  people  at  the 
depot,  and  see  that  they  are  cared  for.  On  the  night  of  December  4  eighty-seven  immi¬ 
grants  arrived.  Although  fifty  had  gone  on  to  Greencastle  several  weeks  previously, 
these  eighty-seven  were  the  first  who  stopped  at  Indianopolis.  Although  the  arrival 
of  these  found  our  society  without  money  or  provisions,  the  churches,  committee,  and 
ministers  sent  provisions  to  them,  and  a  committee  of  ladies  prepared  a  nice  breakfast 
the  morning  of  December  5,  and  our  committee  went  to  the  committee  of  the  relief 
society  of  the  Vermont  Street  Church  and  in  for  hied  them  that  we  were  prepared  to 
take  care  of  half  of  those  people  who  arrived.  Accordingly  they  were  divided,  half  of 
the  emigrants  remaining  at  the  Vermont  Street  A.  M.  E.  Church  and  half  came 
to  the  Second  Baptist  Church.  From  that  time  up  to  Christmas,  there  arrived  in 
the  city  460  emigrants  from  North  Carolina.  These  were  about  equally  divided  be¬ 
tween  the  two  societies,  who  were  about  equally  efficient  iu  providing  and  finding 
them  homes  and  employment.  About  the  20th  of  December,  the  people  taken  care  of 
by  the  relief  society  at  the  A.  M.  E.  Church  were  removed  to  the  Blackford  Street 
Zion  Methodist  Church.  December  24  the  Christ  an  Emigrant  Aid  Society  rented 
the  hall  on  the  con  er  of  California  and  Pratt  streets  and  removed  the  people  from  the 
lecture  room  of  the  Second  Baptist  Church  to  that  place,  wdiere  those  who  have  ar¬ 
rived  since  have  been  temporarily  quartered  until  they  found  homes  and  employment. 
About  that  time  the  relief  society  ceased  entirely  to  meet  and  call  for  the  emigrants 
as  they  arrived  in  the  city.  The  two  hundred  who  arrived  on  New  Year’s  eve  were  pro¬ 
vided  and  cared  for  by  the  Christian  Emigrant  Aid  Society.  Six  hundred  and  twenty- 
five  emigrants  have  arrived  since  the  relief  society  ceased  To  help  them  in  any  way. 
This  burden  has  since  that  entirely  fallen  upon  the  Christian  Emigrart  Aid  Society. 
Since  that  time  this  society  has  had  an  average  of  from  twenty-five  to  two  hundred 
emigrants.  This  has  been  very  heavy  upon  this  society,  the  members  of  'which  are 
all  poor.  As  before  stated,  the  society  was  without  money  when  the  first  emigrants 
arrived.  The  churches  and  committees  brought  in  provisions  abundantly  for  the  peo¬ 
ple  for  the  first  few  days.  Then  the  churches  commenced  holding  prayer  meetings 
among  the  emigrants.  As  they  (the  emigrants)  were  gcod  revival  singers  and 
prayers,  many  people  came  to  hear  them.  At  the  close  of  these  meetings  we  lifted 
collections,  all  of  which  amounted  to  $50.  About  the  same  valuation  in  provisions 
were  given  by  the  churches  and  friends,  so  that  up  to  the  17th  of  December  we  had 
collected  through' the  six  churches  $50  in  money  and  $50  worth  of  provisions  and  cloth¬ 
ing.  On  the  evening  of  17th  December  the  board  met,  and  seeing  that  the  churches 
were  unable  to  support  the  emigrants  who  were  abundantly  coming,  appointed  a 
soliciting  committee  to  go  out  into  the  city  and  collect  money  and  provisions.  The 
soliciting  committee  consisted  of  Mr.  Conrad  Burley,  Rev.  J.  R.  Raynor,  Rev.  Ander¬ 
son  Simmons,  Rev.  Wm.  Singleton,  Rev.  Moses  Broyles,  Rev.  E.  C.  Wilson,  and  Rev. 
Thos.  Smith. 


This  committee  has  collected  iu  money .  $246  85 

Money  raised  by  the  churches .  50  00 


Total  raised . 

Which  has  been  expended  as  follows:. 

To  2  months’  house  rent . 

To  5  stoves  for  emigrants . 

To  cooking  and  washing  things . . 

To  carpenter  work  and  materials _ 

To  washing  and  other  help . 

To  lamp-oil . 

To  cleaning  up  the  church . 

To  whitewashing  same  after  they  left 

To  lamp-oil  and  candles . 

To  meat  and  salt . 

To  bread  and  meal . 

To  railroad  fare . 

To  hominy . 

To  beans . 

To  wood . 

To  coal . 

To  sugar  and  coffee . 

Total  amount  paid  out . 


,  296 

85 

#12 

00 

23 

14 

3 

50 

5 

14 

3 

50 

4 

40 

3 

25 

3 

00 

5 

15 

53 

15 

45 

25 

53 

75 

10 

15 

11 

40 

25 

25 

29 

50 

6 

25 

296  85 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


357 


Balance,  nothing. 

The  above  is  what  has  been  collected  and  expended.  The  society  is  indebted  as  fol¬ 
lows  : 


To  Thomas  Nelson  for  wrood .  $4  00 

To  Win.  Porter  for  wood .  3  50 

To  T.  Eames  for  meat .  4  60 

To  Louis  Weasner  for  groceries .  3  88 

To  Geisensauner  for  bread .  4  50 

To  Mr.  Amsley  for  meal .  50 

To  house-rent  due  the  24th  instant  . .  6  00 


Total  indebtedness 


23  98 


“  The  means  of  the  society  are  entirely  exhausted,  and  we  need  only  the  money  to  pay 
indebtedness,  but  there  are  families  in  the  city  who  need  help,  and  we  ask  a  generous 
public,  in  behalf  of  humanity,  to  help  the  society  to  prevent  those  people  from  suffer¬ 
ing  until  the^  can  find  employment.  They  came  here  expecting  to  obtain  remunera¬ 
tive  employment.  Just  so  soon  as  they  are  so  employed,  they  don’t  have  to  be  helped. 
The  society  has  not,  directly  or  indirectly,  expended  a  cent  in  aiding  a  single  emi¬ 
grant  to  come  to  the  State  or  city,  and  it  is  determined  not  to  spend  any  iu  that  way. 
There  has  come  into  the  State  from  North  Carolina,  since  they  commenced,  1,135,  in¬ 
cluding  women  and  children  ;  about  one-fourth  of  these  are  men.” 


Senator  Blair.  What  date  is  that? 

The  Chairman.  This  is  Saturday,  and  it  falls  under  the  notice  of  this 
Emigrant  Aid  Society. 

Q.  (To  the  witness.)  You  would  concur  iu  that  statement  from  your 
knowledge? — A.  Heartily. 

Q.  Do  you  regard  it  as  a  kindness  to  the  colored  race  for  them  to  be 
taken  to  Indiana  in  the  winter  time  and  quartered  there  at  Indianapolis 
upon  the  charity  of  their  own  race  and  the  white  race,  in  the  present 
condition  of  our  labor  system? — A.  I  consider  it  a  very  great  outrage 
upon  our  people,  and  also  upon  those  negroes  who  were  seut  there. 


By  Senator  Blair: 

Q.  What  is  your  official  position  iu  Indiana? — A.  I  am  adjutant-gen¬ 
eral  of  the  State. 

Q.  Your  political  sentiments  are  Democratic,  of  course  ? — A.  At  pres¬ 
ent  they  are. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  a  Democrat  ? — A.  Since  plundering,  and 
robbing,  and  whisky-rings,  and  carpet  bag  rule  in  this  country. 

Q.  Can  you  fix  the  date  when  you  experienced  this  change  of  politi¬ 
cal  sentiment  ? — A.  When  I  became  convinced  that  I  was  on  the  wrong 
side — immediately.  I  was  four  years,  I  think,  in  changing  my  opinions. 

Q.  About  when  did  you  comumnce  to  act  with  the  Democratic  party  ? 
—A.  fn  1870. 

Q.  When  did  this  robbing,  plundering,  and  so  forth,  which  you  men¬ 
tion,  occur  in  the  Republican  party  ? — A.  Well,  there  was  a  good  deal 
of  it  during  Grant’s  first  administration,  and  a  great  deal  more  of  it  iu 
his  last  administration. 

Q.  It  commenced  in  1870  ? — A.  I  voted  for  him  twice,  however. 

Q.  Well,  to  leave  that  part  of  it,  allow  me  to  ask  you  if  you  yourself 
have  taken  considerable  interest  as  a  Democratic  politician  in  promoting 
this  investigation  ? — A.  Not  as  a  politician. 

Q.  As  a  Democrat? — A.  Individually,  I  have. 

Q.  You  have  been  anxious  for  the  investigation,  have  you? — A.  I 
have  been  anxious  that  the  facts  should  come  out. 

Q.  You  have  spent  considerable  time  in  making  inquiries  and  pro¬ 
curing  evidence  for  its  presentation  here,  h  ive  you  not? — A.  Nearly  all 
of  it  came  to  my  office  without  solicitation. 


358 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  It  sought  you,  then  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  If  I  am  not  mistaken  as  to  the 
reputation  I  have  in  my  city,  any  one  who  is  in  a  suffering  condition  or 
imposed  upon  would  come  to  my  office  who  knows  me. 

Q.  Not  in  relation  to  your  political  sentiments  at  all  ? — A.  Independ¬ 
ently  of  those. 

Q.  So  that  your  connection  with  or  the  knowledge  you  have  of  this 
exodus  in  no  sense  results  from  your  interested  political  character  as  a 
Democratic  politician,  but  rather  as  a  humanitarian  ? — A.  Both. 

Q.  To  what  extent  do  you  think  that  you  have  been  identified  with 
the  political  aspect  of  this  investigation  ? — A.  When  I  became  satisfied 
in  my  own  mind  that  the  Republican  party  was  perpetrating  this  out¬ 
rage,  or  interested  in  it,  or  encouraging  the  immigration  of  these  poor, 
ignorant,  destitute  people  into  our  State,  I  then  took  quite  an  interest 
against  the  party. 

Q.  When  did  your  conviction  come  that  the  Republican  party  was 
encouraging  it?  How  long — a  week  ago? — A.  Perhaps  a  month  ago. 

Q.  And  since  that  time  you  have  been  making  active  investigations 
as  a  politician  into  it? — A.  No,  sir;  not  as  a  politician. 

Q.  I  do  not  use  the  term  in  an  offensive  sense.  We  are  all  politicians, 
or  want  to  be. — A.  I  felt  this  way  :  If  it  could  be  proved  that  the  Demo¬ 
cratic  party  was  responsible  for  this  exodus,  I  was  willing  to  lend  any 
aid  1  could  to  convict  them. 

Q.  I  wanted  to  get  your  real  animus.  Now  you  state  that  at  some 
time  you  were  persuaded  that  it  was  a  political  movement,  but  I  have 
not  understood  you  to  state  any  very  definite  evidence  of  it.  Will  you 
not  state  the  evidence,  not  the  surmises,  and  what  it  was  that  changed 
your  opinion  as  to  the  political  aspect  of  this  exodus? — A.  We  form 
opinions  not  from  an  isolated  fact,  but  from  the  general  inferences  that 
we  may  gather  from  a  combination  of  facts.  It  is  a  fact,  and  a  notori¬ 
ous  fact,  that  the  Republican  press  of  the  State  is  encouraging  it,  and 
that  alone  ought  to  satisfy  me  that  the  party  is  interested  in  it. 

Q.  Can  you  mention  any  other  fact  besides  this  that  the  Republican 
press  generally  encourage  it  in  Indiana? — A.  The  Republicans  in  the 
city  with  whom  I  have  talked,  while  some  of  them  do  not  seem  to  en¬ 
courage  it  directly,  they  defend  it. 

Q.  Thus,  they  say  this,  that  these  people  have  a  perfect  right  to  come 
to  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  good  a  right  to  come  as  white  people? — A.  I  have  heard  that 
argu  m  en  t  f re q  u  en  tly . 

Q.  Do  you  object  to  that? — A.  Do  I  object  to  it  ? 

Q.  Do  you  object  to  these  people  going  there  with  the  same  induce¬ 
ments  and  the  same  desire  for  freedom  as  the  white  people  who  come  to 
Indiana? — A.  I  certainly  would  not  advise  them  to  come. 

Q.  But  suppose  they  elected  to  come,  saw  fit  to  come,  you  would  ad¬ 
vise  any  destitute  person  not  to  come  to  Indiana? — A.  I  suppose  they 
have  a  right  to  come. 

Q.  Well,  these  Republicans  whom  you  speak  of  simply  defend  their 
right  to  come,  the  same  right  as  they  say  everybody  has  a  right  to  come 
to  Indiana? — A.  You  remember  that  Mr.  Mills  did  not  put  it  in  that 
way.  He  said  they  wanted  some  20,000  bucks  there. 

Q.  I  was  asking  you  what  you  based  it  upon,  and  you  say  Republicans 
defend  their  right  to  come  the  same  as  they  defend  the  right  of  every¬ 
body  else  to  come  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  say  that  some  of  them  come  because 
they  want  their  votes. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  Republicans  want  them  to  come  as 
paupers,  and  with  the  prospect  that  they  will  remain  as  paupers, simply 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


359 


because  they  want  their  votes  ? — A.  I  do  not  believe  that  one-fourtli  of 
the  people  of  the  State  of  Indiana  desire  them  to  come,  or  would  en¬ 
courage  it. 

Q.  And  you  don’t  say  that  the  Republicans,  generally,  desire  them  to 
cornel? — A.  I  say  that  the  leading  Republicans  desire  it. 

Q.  Can  a  pauper  vote  in  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  can. 

By  the  Cn airman  : 

Q.  They  don’t  require  a  property  qualification  in  Indiana  as  they 
would  up  in  the  New  England  States  to  enable  them  to  vote? — A.  A 
man  may  be  ever  so  poor,  but  he  is  not  too  poor  to  cast  a  ballot  in  In¬ 
diana. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  That  is  good  ;  and  you  base  your  opposition  to  the  colored  man 
coming  there  upon  the  ground,  simple  and  purely  in  your  own  mind, 
that  he  is  too  poor  to  get  a  living  in  Indiana? — A.  Will  you  let  me 
answer  in  my  own  language. 

Q.  Yes,  sir  ;  in  your  own  way. — A.  I  oppose  it,  first,  because  there  is 
no  demand  for  his  labor;  he  will  only  meet  with  suffering  and  want. 

Q.  That  reason  applies  to  all  the  laboring  people  coming  there,  does 
it  not;  all  poor  people  coming  to  Indiana? — A.  Destitute  people,  pau¬ 
pers;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Laboring  people — laboring  emigrants — who  are  obliged  to  depend 
upon  their  labor  for  a  living;  that  is  what  you  mean,  is  it  not? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  I  don’t  think  there  is  any  demand  for  that  class  of  labor. 

Q.  Your  opinion  is  so  broad  that  it  covers  the  white  as  well  as  the 
negro? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  strong  and  vigorous,  able  to  do  work? — A.  I  have  not 
seen  any  of  them  doing  work. 

Q.  But  you  have  seen  these  people,  and  they  are  able,  strong,  vigorous 
men  ;  able  to  do  work,  are  they  not? — A.  If  I  was  going  to  select  a  man 
to  work  upon  a  farm  I  would  certainly  select  some  one  not  on  account 
of  any  political  prejudice,  because  I  may  state  I  have  very  little  against 
the  negro,  but  I  would  select  some  one  other  than  the  negro;  I  would 
prefer  a  German. 

*  Q.  You  are  a  very  intelligent  gentleman,  at  any  rate,  if  not  a  lawyer ; 
with  little  less  circumlocution  I  ask  you  whether  these  colored  men  and 
women  who  come  there  are  not  strong  healthy  people? — A.  I  think  not, 
sir. 

Q.  Well,  I  will  ask  it  in  this  way;  do  you  not  think  they  are  fair 
representatives  of  the  laboriug  population  of  the  South,  or  of  the  colored 
laboring  population  of  all  parts  of  the  country  ? — A.  Senator  Yance 
would  be  a  better  witness  on  that  question. 

Q.  He  is  not  under  oath. — A.  I  will  give  my  opinion;  those  who  are 
the  better  class  of  blacks  are  not  coming  to  our  State. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  the  better  class? — A.  I  will  explain  it  in 
this  way;  an  industrious  black  man  in  the  South  will  have  a  home. 

Q.  I  am  not  asking  you  about  that,  I  am  asking  you  as  to  the  per¬ 
sonal  vigor  of  these  colored  people  who  are  coming  to  Indiana. 

The  Chairman.  Let  the  witness  have  a  little  chance. 

The  Witness.  I  have  seen  some  from  the  South,  very  healthy  men, 
that  you  could  not  get  a  day’s  work  out  of  in  the  year. 

Q.  Yrou  have  disconnected  that  other  answer  from  the  question  I  am 
asking  you.  Did  you  not  say  that  this  population,  who  come  there,  have 
come  there  as  paupers;  that  you  did  not  consider  it  a  laboring  popula- 


360 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


tion  ? — A.  I  certainly  don’t  consider  them  capitalists;  they  certainly 
have  not  the  balance  with  the  bondholders. 

Q.  I  will  give  it  up,  as  I  don’t  see  you  will  answer  the  question. — A. 
I  don’t  know  whether  a  majority  of  them  are  willing  to  work  or  not. 

Q.  I  do  not  wish  to  talk  with  you  about  it  because  it  comes  to  noth¬ 
ing,  but  let  me  ask  you  if  this  colored  population,  as  a  rule,  who  have 
come  out  there  during  the  exodus  have  been  distributed  through  all 
parts  of  that  State  ? — A.  Did  you  say  a  majority  of  them  ? 

Q.  Yres,  sir.  Now,  I  want  you  to  be  sure  and  understand  me.  I  don’t 
want  >ou  to  understand  me  if  the  children  are  not  at  work  and  getting 
a  living,  if  the  population  that  comes  to  that  State  is  not  now  self-sus¬ 
taining? — A.  From  the  information  that  I  have  now,  it  is  my  judgment 
that  one-half  of  them  had  employment. 

Q.  But  my  question  is,  whether,  as  a  whole,  these  1,000  people  or  so 
who  have  come  there  are  not  to-day  self-sustaining ;  there  may  be  a  few 
who  are  not  earning  their  living,  but  are  they  not  earning  as  an  entirety 
more  than  they  are  expending  in  that  State  ? — A.  Let  me  digress  a  lit¬ 
tle.  I  don’t  know  the  condition  of  the  parties  who  are  sent  in  the  inte¬ 
rior  portion  of  the  State. 

Q.  You  understand  they  have  gone  there  to  get  work  ? — A,  But  I 
spoke  of  those  who  have  remained  there  at  Indianapolis. 

Q.  O,  I  mean -  A.  I  cannot  answer  for  those  who  have  gone  else¬ 

where.  1  understand  there  were  two  carloads  that  went  yesterday.  I 
don’t  understand  that  there  is  any  employment  for  them. 

Q.  You  don’t  understand,  as  a  whole,  that  this  population  who  have 
come  into  your  State,  1,000  or  so,  are  self-sustaining? — A.  I  don’t. 

Q.  This  is  the  winter  season? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  expect  that  they  will  suffer  soon? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  think 
they  will  in  our  city  now. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  that  these  colored  people  will  be  able  to  get  a 
living  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  there  are  a  great  many  in  our  city  now  who  do  not 
get  a  living. 

Q.  A  great  many  will  starve  to  death  in  Indiana,  will  they  not? — A. 
A  great  many  more  are  destitute  who  were  there  before  these  people 
went  there. 

Q.  Are  any  of  these  people  who  went  to  Indianapolis  employed  in 
that  city  since  they  went  there? — A.  I  don’t  know  of  any. 

Q.  How  many  do  you  actually  know  of  in  that  city  who  have  come 
from  North  Carolina  or  elsewhere  in  the  progress  of  this  exodus  ? — A. 
I  could  only  answer  that  by  memory  and  from  seeing  them  puss  by 
the  office.  My  office  is  on  the  street  opposite  the  other  State  offices,  and 
I  could  only  see  them  in  the  street  passing  by. 

Q.  You  say  you  know  of  none  who  have  found  employment? — A.  I 
state  that  I  don’t  know  of  any.  I  could  not  name  one. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  very  much  about  it  in  that  way  ? — A.  I  know  more 
perhaps  concerning  those  who  are  destitute  and  who  come  to  my  office 
seeking  assistance  than  I  do  of  those  who  have  been  successful,  who 
have  been  getting  employment. 

Q.  Many  of  them  have  gone  to  other  parts  of  the  State,  have  they 
not? — A.  There  may  have  been  many. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  it  at  all  strange  that  in  the  progress  of  such  a 
movement  there,  in  the  transit  would  be  more  or  less  of  suffering,  and 
that  without  regard  to  the  colored  emigrant,  while  people  are  in  this 
state  of  transit? — A.  I  think  it  depends  a  great  deal  upon  the  section 
of  country  they  would  move  from  whether  they  would  be  acclimated  or 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


361 


not.  I  don’t  think  there  would  be  us  much  suffering  in  moving  from 
Ohio  into  Indiana  or  from  Pennsylvania  to  New  York. 

Q.  But  is  it  not  a  fact  that  in  all  great  movements  of  population  there 
is  more  or  less  individual  suffering.  You  recollect  the  Pilgrims  had  a 
hard  time  in  the  first  settlement  of  this  country  ? — A.  Well,  there  is 
more  or  less  suffering  occasioned  from  moving  from  one  locality  to 
another,  and  more  coming  from  the  South. 

Q.  You  could  not  condemn  this  movement  as  a  whole  because  27  per¬ 
sons  had  died  in  Indiana  ? — A.  That  is  in  Indiana  in  a  very  short  time. 

Q.  At  t)ue  time  in  Indianapolis,  a  great  city,  where  they  have  arrived 
and  where  the  people  suffering  would  be  likely  to  be  left  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  known  something  of  the  inclination  of  these 
people  to  get  back  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  them  actually  getting  back  to  North 
Carolina? — A.  I  don’t. 

Q.  Hawe  you  known  the  fact  which  one  witness  mentioned  that  many, 
or  at  least  some,  of  these  emigrants  were  men  of  property  ? — A.  I  have 
heard  some  of  them  had  means,  but  never  met  any  of  them. 

Q.  What  amount  have  you  understood  that  some  of  them  possessed  ? — 
A.  Well,  I  have  never  heard  any  amount  at  all;  on  the  stand  this  morn  - 
iug  when  a  witness  said  $20,000. 

Q.  Have  you  any  at  this  moment  information  which  would  lead  you 
to  modify  your  statement  that  these  people  are  paupers? — A.  There 
may  be  an  isolated  exception,  but  from  their  appearance  and  from  the 
conversation  I  have  had  with  them,  I  would  certainly  class  them  as 
paupers,  destitute  people. 

Q.  But  would  you  notadmit  now  that  they  are  generally  people  wholook 
as  though  they  could  earn  their  living  if  they  had  the  chance  to  work  ? — 
A.  I  would  feel  very  much  discouraged  if  I  had  as  large  a  family  as  some 
of  them  have,  with  no  bedding,  clothing,  or  house  to  make  a  living  in 
Indiana ;  it  takes  less  for  them  to  live  in  North  Carolina  than  it  would 
in  Indiana. 

Q.  Is  it  not  likely  that  they  would  get  a  pretty  solid  compensation  for 
their  labor  in  Indiana ;  are  not  wages  higher  in  Indiana  than  in  the 
South  ? — A.  t  have  posted  myself  more  in  reference  to  that.  I  have 
4some  interest  in  the  South.  I  have  said  this  to  my  friends.  I  am  speak¬ 
ing  of  laboring  men.  Northern  Alabama  has  the  same  climate  as  North 
Carolina,  very  much  the  same  climate. 

Senator  Vance.  Very  nearly  the  same. 


By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q,  But  the  question  is  as  to  whether  you  are  posted  as  to  the  wages 
paid  in  Northern  Alabama? — A.  I  have  advised  a  great  many  of  my 
friends  to  go  there,  in  preference  to  remaining  in  Indiana,  where  they 
can  buy  lands  much  cheaper. 

Q.  You  are  not  sending  paupers  down  there;  you  are  not  encourag¬ 
ing  a  movement  of  that  kind  ? — A.  If  a  man  has  not  a  dollar  in  t lie 
world,  or  a  home,  or  much  clothing  to  wear,  I  don’t  know  that  I  could 
give  him  much  advice. 

Q.  I  asked  you  if,  as  a  rule,  you  are  not  aware  that  the  wages  are 
higher  in  the  North  than  in  the  South,  though  I  don’t  limit  it  to  North 
Carolina  or  Indiana? — A.  If  the  same  class  of  laborers  who  are  coming 
to  Indiana  could  do  better  in  Alabama,  I  would  advise  them  to  go 
there  in  preference  to  remaining  in  Indiana. 

Q.  Irrespective  of  politics? — A.  lres,  sir.  My  plantation  is  in  a  Re¬ 
publican  district. 


362 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Then  you  have  not  any  definite  knowledge  more  than  you  stated  ; 
you  don;t  know  whether  these  are  better  off  in  Indiana  than  in  North. 
Carolina  or  not? — A.  Taking  everything  into  consideration,  the  number 
of  days  that  they  can  work,  and  the  expense  of  living,  I  think  the 
wages  better  in  Northern  Alabama  than  they  are  in  Indiana  for  labor¬ 
ing  men. 

Q.  Well,  that  is  one  reason  why  you  are  opposed  to  the  exodus,  is  it 
not? — A.  I  stated  the  cause  of  my  opposition. 

Q.  Well,  General,  then  I  understand  from  you  that  you  claim  that 
wages  are  better  and  higher  in  the  South  than  in  the  Northern  States, 
and  that  understanding  is  one  of  the  reasons  why  you  are  opposed  to 
the  colored  man  coming  to  the  State  of  Indiana  ? — A.  I  have  not  stated 
that  the  per  diem  is  higher  in  Alabama  than  it  is  in  the  Northern  States. 
I  said  I  would  consider  the  wages  in  Alabama — I  think  that  the  wages 
are  better  in  Alabama  than  in  Indiana. 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say,  General,  that  one  reason  why  you  thought 
this  exodus  was  a  political  movement  was  because  the  subscribers  to  the 
papers  for  relief  contained  none  but  Republican  names.  Did  you  say 
that? — A.  Perhaps  I  named  that  among  other  things. 

Q.  And  you  thought  that  because  Republicans,  and  none  others,  sub¬ 
scribed  to  the  relief  of  these  people,  that  therefore  it  was  a  political 
movement? — A.  I  do  not  know,  Senator,  whether  that  money  was  paid 
for  the  bread  and  butter  and  clothing  of  these  people,  or  whether  it  was 
paid  for  their  railroad  fare.  If  I  had  known  for  what  purpose  it  was 
used,  I  might  have  changed  my  opinion. 

Q.  But  you  do  not  know  for  what  purpose  it  was  used? — A.  No,  sir; 
I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Have  you  noticed  the  entire  amount  that  was  raised,  as  it  is  stated 
in  the  paper  from  which  Mr.Voorhees  just  read?  (Referring  to.  The  In¬ 
dianapolis  Journal  of  date  February  12,  1880.) — A.  No,  sir;  1  do  not 
think  I  heard  the  amount,  but  it  is  under  $300  I  know. 

Q.  Did  you  not  hear  of  any  Democrats  subscribing  to  this  relief  fund  ? 
Would  you  suppose  that  they  would  encourage  the  raising  of  money  for 
this  fund  ? — A.  I  would  not. 

Q.  Why  would  you  suppose  that  it  was  for  political  purposes  in  the 
one  case  and  not  in  the  other  ? — A.  If  it  had  been  presented  to  Repub¬ 
licans  and  Democrats  alike,  I  would  have  thought  that  it  was  a  hu¬ 
manitarian  movement,  and  subscribed  for  charitable  purposes  alone, 
but  it  had  the  ear  marks  of  a  Republican  document,  when  I  looked  at  it. 

Q.  Now  this  report  from  which  the  chairman  read  shows  a  total 
amount  of  $296.85,  raised  for  the  relief  of  these  people  in  your  city  ? — 
A.  Whose  report  is  it  ? 

Q.  It  is  the  report  made  at  this  meeting  by  the  committee.  I  will 
read  to  you.  (Reading  from  The  Indianapolis  Journal  of  February  12, 
1880):  “The  mass  meeting  held  in  the  Second  Baptist  Church  (col¬ 
ored)  last  night,  to  consider  the  workings  of  the  relief  society  among 
the  colored  emigrants,  was  well  attended,  the  Rev.  Moses  Broiles  pre¬ 
siding,”  &c.  It  gives  a  report  of  the  money  raised  by  friends  of  the 
colored  people  there,  and  the  total  amount  paid  it  states  at  $296.85, 
and  it  itemizes  the  accounts  for  which  it  was  paid. — A.  Does  it  name  the 
tickets  which  were  purchased  ? 

Q.  It  does  not. — A.  Does  it  name  the  twenty-five  dollars  paid  to 
Williams  and  Perry  here? 

Q.  It  does  not  mention  any  tickets  at  all.  Do  you  know  whether 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  363 

$25  was  paid  for  tickets  ? — A.  I  do  not ;  that  is  wliat  I  wanted  to  find 
out. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  $25  being  raised  ? — A.  I  know  of  its  being 
raised  by  bearing  tbe  testimony  here. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  Republican  papers,  so  far  as  you  have  seen  them, 
all  sympathize  in  this  movement  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Their  sympathy  in  it  is  strong,  isn’t  it,  apparently  ? — A.  It  is  not 
to  be  mistaken,  sir. 

Q.  Any  more,  do  you  think,  than  in  the  other  case  you  spoke  of? — 
A.  To  what  do  you  refer? 

Q.  You  spoke  of  the  sympathy  of  the  Democratic  papers  for  the  re¬ 
bellion.  Do  you  think  that  the  Republican  papers  are  as  strong  in 
their  sympathies  for  this  movement  as  the  Democratic  papers  were  in 
favor  of  the  rebellion  ? — A.  I  was  a  boy  in  the  Army  at  that  time  and 

I - 

Q.  Didn’t  get  the  papers,  I  suppose? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  I  understood  your  answer  to  Mr.  Voorhees’ question  awhile  ago  to 
be  that  you  thought  the  sympathies  of  the  Republican  papers  were  even 
stronger  in  favor  of  the  present  exodus  than  the  Democratic  papers 
were  in  favor  of  the  rebellion  ? — A.  That  was  my  opinion  from  the  sen¬ 
timents  I  had  heard. 

Q.  Then  you  made  that  comparison  to  show  how  strong  the  sympa¬ 
thies  of  the  Republican  press  of  Indiana  are  in  favor  of  this  exodus,  did 
you? — A.  Well,  1  would  make  it  even  stronger,  perhaps. 

Q.  But  it  serves  you  for  the  purpose  of  a  comparison,  does  it? — A.  I 
hardly  know  whether  I  ought  to  make  such  a  comparison,  for  I  have 
only  resided  in  Indiana  since  the  war. 

Q.  Well,  didn’t  you  agree  with  the  comparison  made  by  the  chair¬ 
man  ? — A.  I  only  answered  that  in  my  opinion  the  Republican  papers 
are  much  more  unanimous  in  favor  of  the  present  exodus  than  the 
Democratic  papers  were  in  indorsing  the  rebellion. 

Q.  But  you  do  not  know  what  the  Democratic  papers  did  at  that 
time? — A.  No,  I  do  not;  I  only  judge  from  the  Democrats  f  met  then, 
and  that  I  meet  and  talk  with  now,  as  to  the  course  they  pursued  in  the 
war. 

Q.  Then  the  comparison  suggested  by  the  chairman  as  to  the  Dem¬ 
ocratic  sympathy  with  the  rebellion  and  the  Republican  sympathy  with 
the  present  exodus  does  not  amount  to  much  in  your  case,  because  you 
can  only  judge  from  hearsay,  and  not  from  your  knowledge? — A.  Well, 
it  may  not  amount  to  much  as  a  comparison  ;  I  speak  only  from  gen¬ 
eral  impressions  made  at  the  time  in  the  Army.  I  met  General  Manson, 
who  is  here,  in  the  Army;  he  was  a  Democrat  then  and  he  is  a  Democrat 
now. 

Q.  He  did  not  edit  a  paper  then  ? — A.  No;  he  was  in  the  Army  then. 

Q.  But  we  are  speaking  of  papers  now. — A.  The  only  knowledge  I 
have  is  what  I  then  knew  and  what  I  have  heard  since. 

Q,  Then  you  cannot  very  well  make  the  comparison  which  the  chair¬ 
man  suggested  in  his  question  to  yon  ? — A.  Perhaps  not,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  anything  of  this  Democratic  exodus  from  Ken¬ 
tucky  into  Indiana  ? — A.  Not  until  you  asked  the  question. 

Q.  You  didn’t  hear  of  it  in  the  papers  ? — A.  No,  sir. 


364 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


TESTIMONY  OF  W.  H.  WOODS. 

Washington,  D.  C.,  February  13,  1880. 

W.  H.  Woods  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  State  your  name,  Mr.  Woods. — Auswer.  AY.  H.  Woods. 

Q.  And  your  residence. — A.  Indianapolis,  Ind. 

Q.  Aud  your  occupation. — A.  I  am  a  barber  by  trade. 

Q.  IIow  long  have  you  lived  in  Indianapolis,  Mr.  AA7oods? — A.  I 
have  lived  there  about  four  years  and  a  half — four  years  possibly — about 
four  years  and  a  half. 

Q.  AVhere  did  you  live  before  that  ? — A.  I  lived  in  Parsons,  Kans., 
before  that. 

Q.  Are  you  a  Northern  man  by  birth  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  am  not. 

Q.  AYhat  State  were  you  born  in  ? — A.  In  Tennessee — Nashville, 
Tenn. 

Q.  You  are  a  Republican  in  politics,  Mr.  Woods? — A.  I  am,  sir. 

Q.  You  take  some  interest  in  politics  as  well  as  other  people  at  In¬ 
dianapolis? — A.  A  little,  sir. 

Q.  State  whether  you  have  taken  an  interest  in  these  people  that  have 
come  to  our  State  from  North  Carolina. — A.  I  have  taken  no  interest  in 
getting  them  there. 

Q.  No,  but  since  their  arrival. — A.  I  am  a  member  of  the  citizens’ 
relief  committee,  aud  have  had  something  to  do  with  taking  care  of 
those  that  have  come. 

Q.  AVell,  what  duties  have  you  performed  in  that  respect,  Mr.  Woods  ? 
— A.  AA7ell,  I  have,  as  a  member  of  the  committee,  had  something  to  do 
with  trying  to  collect  funds  for  the  purpose  of  buying  provisions,  &c., 
to  take  care  of  these  people. 

Q.  Have  you  succeeded  in  collecting  a  considerable  fund  for  that  pur 
pose? — A.  I  think  I  collected,  myself,  nearly,  about — well,  something 
about  seventy-odd  dollars. 

Q.  AYhat  do  you  know  ab3ut  some  people  of  your  race  applying  to 
the  Republican  State  central  committee? — A.  Well,  all  I  know  about 
that  is  that  our  committee  had  about  exhausted  all  of  the  monev  we 
were  able  to  collect  from  the  friends  on  the  street ;  and  we  had  learned 
that  there  was  some  funds  that  had  been  collected,  or  at  least  some 
parties  had  signified  that  if  the  money  could  be  rightfully  expended, 
that  they  would  donate  something,  or  give  something  in  that  direction. 
I  believe  that  the  Hon.  J.  S.  Hinton,  down  at  the  Republican  State 
committee  rooms,  one  day,  had  made  some  inquiry  (as  he  had  heard  it 
reported,  I  guess,  on  the  streets,  that  there  was  some  money — I  do  not 
know  where  else  he  got  it ;  aud  while  he  was  in  the  State  Central  com¬ 
mittee  rooms,  I  believe),  he  asked  what  was  going  to  be  done  with 
these  people  ;  that  they  were  there,  and  our  people  had  exhausted 
about  all  the  means  that  we  had  on  hand ;  and  L  believe  that  he  was 
told  that  the  matter  had  been  left  with  a  man  by  the  name  of  M.  H. 
McKay,  I  think  the  name  is,  and  a  man  by  the  name  of  Byram. 

Q.  Do  you  know  these  two  gentlemen  ? — A.  1  had  not  met  Byram. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Air.  Byram  by  reputation? — A.  Yes;  I  know  him 
by  reputation. 

Q.  AATas  he  a  man  of  some  prominence? — A.  M.  H.  AIcKay  was  in  the 
city  council  there.  Byram  was  a  man  of  some  prominence;  I  think  he 
was  an  ex-councilman  or  ex-alderman  ;  I  don’t  know  which. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


365 


^  Q.  Did  you  understand  that  Mr.  Hinton  was  informed  that  the  mat¬ 
ter  was  left,  by  the  Republican  State  central  committee,  to  these  two 
gentlemen  ? — A.  Yes  ;  he  was  simply  referred  to  these  two  gentlemen; 
lie  said  the  matter  had  been  left  with  these  two  gentlemen,  and  that 
we  would  have  to  call  upon  these  gentlemen  ;  that  if  we  would  call 
upon  them  they  would  give  us  satisfaction  relative  to  the  matter. 

Q.  Did  you  call  upon  them,  Mr.  Woods  ? — A.  After  Mr.  Hinton  had 
reported  this  matter  to  the  committee,  and  as  our  committee  had  ex¬ 
hausted  at  that  time  about  all  the  means  they  had,  I  thought  that  if 
there  was  any  money  that  had  been  collected  for  taking  care  of  these 
people,  the  best  thing  we  could  do  was  to  try  to  get  hold  of  it.  So  I 
wrote  a  resolution  in  the  committee  that  a  committee  of  live  be  ap¬ 
pointed  to  wait  upon  these  gentlemen  and  see  if  there  was  any  means 
that  had  been  collected  or  left  with  them  to  take  care  of  these  people; 
for  I  thought  it  necessary  that  they  should  be  taken  care  of. 

Q.  Was  your  resolution  adopted  ? — A.  Yes;  and  the  committee- was 
appointed. 

Q.  Who  was  chairman  of  that  committee,  yourself  ? — A.  No.  R.  B. 
Bagby. 

Q.  Were  you  a  member  of  that  committee  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was. 

Q.  Did  you  wait  on  Mr.  Byram  or  Mr.  McKay  ? — A.  We  waited  on 
Mr.  McKay.  Mr.  By  ram  was  notified  I  believe  by  Cyrus  T.  Nixon,  if  I 
am  not  mistaken,  to  meet  the  committee  at  Marshal  Dudley’s  office,  I 
believe,  for  a  conference,  but  he  did  not  appear,  neither  did  Mr.  McKay. 
We  afterwards  waited  on  Mr.  McKay  at  his  office  in  the  Odd  Fellows’ 
Hall. 

Q.  Well,  what  satisfaction  did  you  get,  Mr.  W7oods  ? — A.  All  the  sat¬ 
isfaction  we  got,  so  far  as  Mr.  Dudley  was  concerned,  at  his  office  while 
we  were  there,  and  from  Mr.  McKay,  was  that  Mr.  Nixon  stated  to  us 
that  he  had  been  appointed  by  somebody,  he  did  not  state  who,  to  go 
through  the  State  soliciting  funds,  and  he  had  made  a  failure  of  it. 

Q.  That  is,  Nixon  stated  that  t — A.  Yes  ;  and  that  he  had  caused  Dr. 
S.  A.  Elbert  to  be  appointed  in  his  stead  ;  and  if  there  was  any  funds 
that  had  been  collected  that  McKay  and  Byram  knew  of  and  had  the 
money — if  there  was  any  collected — that  he  had  made  a  failure.  Mar¬ 
shal  Dudley  stated  to  us  that  all  he  knew  about  it  was,  he  (Dr.  Elbert) 
had  subscribed  ten  dollars,  and  that  he  supposed  Dr.  Elbert  had 
the  money  if  he  did  not  turn  it  over  to  McKay.  So  we  protested 
against  Dr.  Elbert  being  appointed  to  collect  the  funds  as  he  did  not 
belong  to  the  committee — was  not  a  member,  having  been  defeated  for 
corresponding  secretary  of  the  committee  by  Benjamin  Thornton.  Not 
being  a  member  of  the  committee,  we  thought  he  had  no  right  to  handle 
any  of  the  funds  that  should  come  into  his  hands,  because  he  was  rather 
hostile  to  the  committee,  and  we  was  satisfied  in  our  minds  that  if  he 
collected  any  funds  toward  taking  care  of  these  people,  we  would  not 
get  any  of  it.  That  was  our  opinion,  so  we  protested  against  it.  They 
requested  us  to  give  a  written  statement  to  that  effect,  and  we  did. 

Q.  Was  Mr.  McKay  present  when  Nixon  made  this  statement? — A. 


Not  at  that  time. 

Q.  This  was  an  interview  you  had  with  Nixon  in  Marshal  Dudley’s 
office,  was  it? — A.  Yes,  in  his  office,  at  which  we  expected  to  meet  Mc¬ 
Kay  and  By  ram. 

Q.  Who  is  Mr.  Nixon  ? — A.  I  believe  he  is  a  prominent  politician  of 
Indianapolis,  and  i  think  he  was  at  that  time  a  member  of  the  legisla¬ 
ture.  I  think  so. 

Q.  He  is  a  white  man,  is  he  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  is. 


366 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  And  a  candidate  now  for  nomination  to  the  legislature,  is  he  not  ? — 
A.  I  believe  lie  is. 

Q.  Mr.  Woods,  he  said  that  he  had  been  appointed  to  canvass  the 
State  for  funds,  I  believe  you  stated?  He  did  not  say,  however,  whom 
he  had  been  appointed  by,  did  he  ? — A.  He  did  not ;  he  simply  said  that 
he  had  been  appointed  to  go  over  the  State  and  collect  funds,  and  that 
he  had  made  a  failure  of  it  and  that  he  had  caused  Dr.  Elbert  to  be  ap¬ 
pointed  in  his  stead.  Or,  in  other  words — I  will  give  it  to  you  in  his 
own  words — that  he  had  written  out  a  recommendation  for  Dr.  Elbert  to 
be  appointed,  and  that  recommendation  had  been  signed  by  McKay  and 
Byram  ;  that  if  any  wrong  had  been  did  in  Dr.  Elbert  being  appointed 
to  collect  funds,  he  was  responsible  for  it. 

Q.  What  employment  is  Nixon  in? — A.  Well,  Senator,  to  tell  you  the 
truth,  I  don’t  know  what  he  is  doing.  He  has  an  office  there,  but  I 
don’t  know  exactly  what  he  is  employed  in. 

Q.  You  did  not  know  that  he  was  employed  in  the  United  States 
marshal’s  office  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  whether  he  was  or  not. 

Q.  Now,  passing  from  the  office,  did  you  see  McKay  at  all  in  connec 
tion  with  this  business? — A.  We  did. 

Q.  Where  did  you  see  him? — A.  We  saw  him  at  his  office. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  to  you  ? — A.  Well,  this  written  statement  that  we 
made  and  signed  at  the  committee.  I  went  first  in  company  with  Mr. 
Nixon  to  McKay — or  Nixon  said  that  after  this  written  statement— that 
would  relieve  him  of  having  Dr.  Elbert  appointed,  and  he  desired  some 
one  of  the  committee  to  go  down  with  him  and  present  this  written  state¬ 
ment  against  Dr.  Elbert’s  collecting  any  funds,  to  McKay;  and  I  was 
solicited  to  go  down  with  him  and  present  this  written  statement  to  Mc¬ 
Kay.  He  said  McKay  could  remove  Dr.  Elbert  if  he  desired  to  do  so, 
and  could  simply  lay  the  matter  before  McKay.  So  he  and  I  laid  the 
matter  before  McKay.  Next  day  the  committee  called  on  McKay  to 
know  what  he  was  going  to  do  about  it.  McKay  said  to  the  committee 
that  he  considered  that  Dr.  Elbert  was  responsible  to  them  for  all  the 
amounts  he  collected :  and  if  he  collected  any,  the  committee  would  get 
it,  and  that  we  might  call  on  him  and  not  Dr.  Efbert  for  the  money.  • 

Q.  Did  you  mention  to  Mr.  McKay  that  Mr.  Hinton  had  informed 
you  that  the  State  central  committee  left  the  matter  to  him  ? — A.  We 
did  ;  we  told  him  that  we  had  learned — we  had  been  referred  to  him  and 
Mr.  Byram  by  some  gentleman  up  at  the  committee  room  of  the  State 
central  committee,  that  there  was  some  funds  collected  and  left  in  their 
hands  for  that  purpose;  and  if  there  was  any,  we  would  like  to  have  it, 
as  we  thought  we  were  the  proper  persons  to  handle  the  funds  ;  to  take 
care  of  these  people. 

Q.  You  were  seeking  funds  to  take  care  of  these  people  after  they  had 
come  there  ;  to  feed  and  clothe  them  and  take  care  of  them,  if  you  could, 
were  you  not? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  McKay,  Mr.  Nixon,  and  Mr.  Dudley  all  knew  that  that  was 
your  object  in  getting  the  money,  did  they  ? — A.  We  so  stated;  that 
that  was  our  object  in  getting  funds;  that  we  had  exhausedall  we  had. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  get  any  of  it  for  that  purpose  ? — A.  I  believe  Mr. 
McKay  furnished  the  president  of  our  association,  Mr.  W.  C.  Trevau, 
$10.  • 


Q.  Did  he  say  that  was  all  he  had  ? — A.  He  said  it  was  all  he  had  at 
present. 

Q.  Did  he  deny  having  collected  any  ? — A.  To  tell  you  the  truth,  Sen. 
ator,  it  seems  as  though  he  did  not  want  our  committee  to  use  the  funds 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


367 


that’s  the  truth  of  the  matter  :  and  he  had  rather  it  would  come  through 
Dr.  S.  A.  Elbert’s  hands  and  Rev.  Moses  Broyles’s. 

Q.  They  are  political  leaders  of  your  people  there,  are  they  not? — A. 
Yes,  sir ;  they  are. 

Q.  And  it  looked  as  though  the  Republican  State  central  committee 
preferred  to  disburse  the  funds  through  them  than  through  your  com¬ 
mittee,  which  was  purely  a  charitable  committee? — A.  I  do  not  know 
what  the  Republican  State  central  committee  had  instructed  them  to 
do,  but  these  gentlemen  seemed  to  desire  that. 

Q.  These  were  the  gentlemen  you  had  been  referred  to  through  Mr. 
Hinton? — xY  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  Doctor  Elbert  on  the  subject? — A.  I  think  I 
never  had  any  particular  conversation  with  him  about  the  matter,  be¬ 
cause  I  did  not  thiuk  lie  was  the  proper  man  to  handle  the  funds,  and 
I  did  not  talk  to  him  about  it,  because  I  had  signed  a  written  recommen¬ 
dation  against  his  collecting  funds,  and  presented  that  to  Mr.  McKay, 
and  I  thought  that  a  sufficient  reason,  so  I  was  not  disposed  to  consult 
with  him  about  it. 

Q.  You  did  not  ascertain  how  much  Elbert  had,  did  you  ? — A.  We  did 
not  find  out  that  from  McKay,  because  he  seemed  as  though  he  did  not 
care  to  give  us  any  information  as  to  how  he  got  the  money. 

Q.  The  money  had  been  collected  and  he  would  not  give  you  any  sat¬ 
isfaction  as  to  the  amount  Elbert  had  in  his  hands;  is  that  it? — A.  Ko, 
sir;  we  never  did  find  that  out. 

Q.  What  steps  did  you  take  in  that  connection,  as  a  committee,  when 
you  found  that  state  of  affairs? — A.  Well,  when  we  found  that  state  of 
affairs,  and  as  we  believed  the  means  was  somewhere,  although  we  could 
not  get  them,  we  thought  that  if  Dr.  S.  A.  Elbert  and  Rev.  Moses 
Erodes  was  the  persons  these  gentlenen  desired  to  have  handle  the  funds 
if  any  was  collected — our  committee  thought  that  Rev.  Moses  Broiles 
and  Dr.  J.  A.  Elbert  was  the  men  to  take  care  of  them,  so  when  our 
committee  had  a  meeting  next  we  simply  resolved  to  do  nothing  more 
unless  we  was  furnished  means  to  do  it  with,  as  we  had  exhausted  all 
we  had.  And  we  have  not  did  anything  since  leaving  it  to  these  gen¬ 
tlemen  to  attend  to. 

Q.  Was  there  anything,  Mr.  Woods,  connected  with  this  matter  that 
made  an  impression  on  your  mind  that  there  were  political  objects  in 
view? — A.  Well,  after  we  had  called  upon  these  gentlemen — up  to  that 
time — I  thought  there  was  not;  but  after  we  had  called  upon  these  gen¬ 
tlemen,  and  the  manner  in  which  we  was  treated  by  them,  it.  kind  of 
looked  to  us,  as  we  termed  it,  as  if  there  was  “  a  dog  in  the  well.”  We 
thought  there  was  something  somewhere,  and  they  didn’t  desire  to  let 
us  know  anything  about  it,  and,  after  pressing  the  matter  as  far  as  we 
could,  we  dropped  it. 

Q.  Who  was  on  this  committee  with  you  ? — A.  Mr.  R.  B.  Bagby. 

Q.  He  is  a  very  respectable  man,  is  he  not? — A.  He  is  principal  of 
the  school  there,  number  24,  I  believe. 

Q.  Is  he  a  colored  man  ? — xY  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  who  else  ? — A.  Mr.  James  S.  Hinton. 

Q.  He  has  been  canal  trustee,  has  he  not? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  has. 

Q.  Who  else? — A.  William  F.  Floyd,  I  believe,  and  Benjamin  Thorn¬ 
ton  and  L.  E.  Christy. 

Q.  In  other  words,  it  was  a  responsible  committee  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Responsible  for  the  handling  and  disbursement  of  money  ? — A. 
We  thought  so,  sir. 

Q.  Yes,  I  think  so  too.  You  have  not  been  able  to  determine  why 


368 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


the  money  was  not  disbursed  through  you  except  on  the  hypothesis  that 
there  seemed  to  be  “  a  dog  in  the  well,”  as  you  expressed  it  ? — A.  That 
is  what  we  thought. 

Mr.  Vance.  Down  in  our  country  they  call  it  u  nigger  in  the  wood- 
pile.” 

By  the  Chairman: 

Q.  You  stated  at  the  outset  of  your  examination  that  you  were  a  Re¬ 
publican  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything — I  do  not  know  whether  you  do  or  not — 
about  the  manner  in  which  the  money  was  raised  there  to  bring  these 
people  on  from  Washington,  or  whether  they  had  any  money  to  get 
through  with  ? — A.  I  do  not,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  how  that  money  was  raised  ? — A.  I  do  not  know 
how  that  money  was  raised. 

Q.  I  mean  not  merely  of  your  own  knowledge,  but  from  information  ? 
— A.  No,  sir;  all  I  know  is,  the  agent  of  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Rail¬ 
road  called  upon  us  one  night  when  our  committee  was  in  session,  to 
know  whether  a  dispatch,  I  think,  had  been  received  for  money  to  be 
sent  to  Washington. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  much  he  stated  that  money  was  ? — A.  My 
impression  is  he  stated  there  was  a  dispatch  sent  for  some  six  hundred 
dollars,  I  think. 

Q.  Mr.  Woods,  do  you  think  that  six  hundred  dollars  could  have  been 
raised  among  the  colored  people  at  that  time  in  the  course  of  twenty-four 
hours,  or  forty-eight  hours,  for  the  purpose  of  buying  transportation 
from  Washington  City  to  Indianapolis  for  these  colored  emigrants? — A. 
Well,  I  know  that  it  could  not. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  anything  about  it,  you  know  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I 
know  it. 

Q.  You  were  satisfied,  then,  that  if  six  hundred  dollars,  or  any  such 
sum,  was  raised  for  such  a  purpose,  it  had  to  be  raised  outside  of  the 
colored  people? — A.  If  any  such  sum  was  raised,  it  must  have  been 
raised  outside  of  our  people. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  that  soon  after  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  agent 
spoke  to  you  there  was  an  arrival  of  some  hundred  and  fifty  to  two  hun¬ 
dred  of  these  people  ? — A.  I  believe  there  was,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  informed  that  the  money  was  raised — not  as  to  how  it 
was  raised,  for  you  have  said  you  did  not  know  that — but  were  you  in¬ 
formed  that  the  money  was  raised  there  for  them  ? — A.  All  I  know 
about  that  is  that  we  referred  the  agent  of  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Rail¬ 
road  to  Mr.  R.  B.  Bagby,  chairman  of  the  executive  committee,  and  what¬ 
ever  disposition  they  made  of  it  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  Well,  do  you  know  whether,  in  point  of  fact,  there  was  a  sum  of 
money  raised  for  that  purpose  at  that  time  ?— A.  I  could  not  state  posi¬ 
tively  whether  there  was  or  not. 

Q.  Well,  upon  information? — A.  I  understood  that  the  money  was 
sent  on. 

Q.  Yen  understood  that  money  was  sent  on? — A.  Yes;  I  understood 
that,  but  I  don’t  know  whether  it  was  or  not. 

Q.  Well,  this  investigation  is  not  governed  by  the  close  rules  of  a 
court,  and  you  can  give  us  what  you  have  heard.  How  did  you  come 
to  understand  that,  Mr.  Woods? — A.  I  don’t  know;  I  think  I  just 
merely  heard  it  talked  of  generally,  rumored  around,  and  I  got  hold  of 
it.  A  great  many  rumors  were  going  around,  and  it  may  have  been  a 
false  one  for  all  I  know. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


369 


Q.  Yes  ;  but  you  think  there  was  a  general  understanding,  in  which 
you  participated,  that  money  had  been  sent  on  to  them? — A.  Just  as 
I  stated  before,  we  thought  there  was  a  “a  dog  in  the  well,”  and  there 
must  be  some  money  in  some  place,  and  that  is  all  I  know  about  it. 

Q.  You  pulled  out  of  the  business  pretty  much  after  that,  didn’t  you? 
A.  Our  committee  has  not  did  anything  since,  and  didn’t  intend  to,  un¬ 
less  they  gave  us  some  money  to  do  it  with. 

Q.  Are  you  a  man  of  family,  Mr.  Woods? — A.  I  am. 

Q.  What  family  have  you? — A.  I  have  only  a  wife,  sir. 

Q.  You  still  are  occupied  there  in  the  Bates  House,  in  the  barber¬ 
shop,  are  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Woods,  you  write  sometimes  for  the  press  in  behalf  of  your  peo¬ 
ple,  do  you  not? — A.  I  do;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  are  a  member  of  the  Republican  club  of  your  ward,  I  be¬ 
lieve? — A.  Yes,  sir,  I  am. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar,  Mr.  Woods,  with  the  condition  of  these  emigrants 
at  this  time  in  Indianapolis  ? — A.  The  most  that  I  have  seen  of  them, 
sir,  has  been  in  connection  with  our  committee  work.  In  fact,  I  believe 
my  committee  handled  four  hundred  and  thirty-eight  of  them. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  “handled,”  Mr.  Woods? — A.  That  is,  they 
came  into  our  hands,  and  we  took  care  of  them  for  a  time;  that  is,  they 
were  put  in  the  hands  of  our  committee;  we  quartered  them  in  the 
church  and  we  fed  them  for  a  time. 

Q.  Well,  what  proportion  of  them  have  been  able  to  get  employment  ? 
— A.  All  of  those  we  had  we  disposed  of ;  we  got  places  for  them  here 
and  there  over  the  State. 

Q.  You  got  places  for  them  in  different  parts  of  the  State  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  sent  a  good  many  of  them  away  from  Indianapolis,  did  you  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir ;  we  sent  about  all  of  them  away  from  Indianapolis. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Langsdale,  of  Greencastle,  communicate  with  you  on  the 
subject? — A.  I  do  not  know  whether  we  had  any  direct  communication 
from  Mr.  Langsdale  or  not. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  these  people  have  not  been  employed  ? — A.  I 
do  not  know,  sir ;  this  Christian  Aid  Association,  of  which  the  Rev. 
Moses  Broiles  is  president,  got  a  good  many  of  them  places  around  the 
city  there;  I  don’t  know  how  many  of  them  is  employed.  Those  we 
had  we  sent  away. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  any  of  them  unemployed? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think 
there  is  a  good  many  of  them  over  there  that  is  not  employed  in  the  kind 
of  headquarters  of  Moses  Broiles’s  old  building,  on  the  corner  of  Cali¬ 
fornia  and  Pratt  streets,  I  think. 

Q.  It  was  in  behalf  of  these  that  the  constant  appeals  for  public 
charity  were  made,  was  it  not  ? — A.  I  believe  so,  sir.  I  heard  you  read 
a  report  to  this  committee,  or  a  portion  of  it,  awhile  ago. 

By  Mr.  Windom: 

Q.  Mr.  Woods,  what  is  Mr.  Byram’s  Christian  name,  please? — A.  I  do 
not  know,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  ascertain  while  you  are  here,  and  give  it  to  me  before  you 
go  away? — A.  No,  sir;  I  cannot. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  McKay’s  given  name  ? — A.  I  think  it  is  M.  H., 
if  1  am  not  mistaken — Mr.  M.  H.  McKay. 

Q.  What  is  Mr.  Nixon’s  given  name? — A.  Cyrus  T.,  I  think. 

Q.  Cyrus  T.  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  Cyrus  T.  Nixon. 

Q.  Mr.  Woods,  there  are  two  societies  there,  among  your  people,  tak- 
24  EX 


370 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


ing  care  of  these  colored  emigrants,  are  there  not? — A.  Yes,  sir;  there 
are. 

Q.  And  there  was  some  disagreement  or  misunderstanding  among 
them,  was  there  not? — A.  There  was  just  this  misunderstanding  about 
it,  Senator,  that  Dr.  S.  A.  Elbert  and  Rev.  Moses  Broiles,  together  with 
some  more  of  our  prominent  colored  citizens  there,  called  a  mass-meet¬ 
ing  to  appoint  a  committee,  and  the  committee  was  appointed.  The  Rev. 
Moses  Broiles  was  put  up  for  president,  and  he  got  beaten,  I  believe,  by 
Elder  Trevan.  Dr.  S.  A.  Elbert  was  put  up  for  corresponding  secretary, 
and  he  got  defeated  by  Benjamin  Thornton,  and  that  seems  to  have  dis¬ 
pleased  them  in  some  way. 

Q.  It  resulted  in  ill-feeling  between  the  two  organizations,  did  it  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  they  went  off  and  called  a  meeting  of  the  five  Baptist 
churches  in  the  Second  Baptist  Church,  and  formed  what  we  called  a 
“Christian  Aid  Association,”  with  the  Rev.  Moses  Broiles  as  president. 

Q.  And  that  still  further  promoted  the  ill-feeling  or  rivalry  between 
the  two  committees,  did  it,  so  that  they  did  not  work  together  harmoni¬ 
ously  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  did. 

Q.  1  am  not  trying  to  get  at  the  merits  of  the  case;  I  am  only  trying 
to  find  out  the  facts. — A.  I  am  only  stating  to  you  what  I  know. 

Q.  Yes,  I  know.  Now,  when  you  went  to  Mr.  McKay  about  the 
money,  he  did  not  seem  to  favor  your  committee,  did  he? — A.  He  did 
not  seem  to  favor  our  committee,  because  it  appeared  to  us,  as  we  found 
out  on  investigation,  rather,  that  they  were  desirous  of  having  Dr.  S.  A. 
Elbert  and  Rev.  Moses  Broiles  handle  whatever  funds  should  be  col¬ 
lected. 

Q.  That  is,  they  preferred  that  their  committee  should  handle  the 
funds? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  we  thought  that  is  the  reason  why  the  Rev. 
Moses  Broiles  and  Dr.  S.  A.  Elbert  formed  this  other  organization,  be¬ 
cause  they  didn’t  happen  to  be  elected  as  officers  of  the  citizens’  com¬ 
mittee. 


Q.  Very  likely;  but  the  impression  you  had  was  that  they  preferred 
their  committee  to  handle  the  funds? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  the  impres¬ 
sion  we  got,  that  they  desired  these  gentlemen  to  handle  the  funds,  if 
there  was  any  funds. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  of  any  funds  being  raised,  except  for  the  purpose 
of  relief  and  charity  ? — A.  Only  as  I  stated  a  while  ago,  I  heard  a  rumor 
about  six  hundred  dollars;  that  is  all  I  know. 

Q.  But  you  didn’t  know? — A.  I  didn’t  know  positively  that  it  was; 
no,  sir. 

Q.  You  didn’t  know  whether  $G00  was  sent  out  at  all? — A.  I  didn’t 
know  positively,  at  all ;  no,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  given  us  all  the  tacts  you  have  that  made  you  give  any 
credence  to  the  rumor,  have  you  ? — A.  That  is  all  I  have  in  that  respect. 
Mr.  Bagby  may  possibly  give  you  some  information.  The  matter  was 
referred  to  him,  to  Mr.  R.  B.  Bagby. 

Q.  Can  you  give  me  your  best  opinion  about  how  many  of  the  whole 
number  of  these  people  that  arrived  there — of  those  able  to  work — have 
failed  to  find  employment — abled-bodied  men,  L  mean  ? — A.  No,  sir;  all 
that  are  there  unemployed  are  in  the  hands  of  the  Christian  Aid  Society, 
and  I  don’t  know  anything  about  whether  they  are  working  or  not. 

Q.  You  do  not  know,  then,  how  many  have  not  succeeded  in  finding 
employment  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  ;  we  took  care  of  ours. 

Q.  You  found  employment  for  how  many  ? — A.  Our  secretary’s  books 
show  that  we  handled  four  hundred  and  thirty  eight,  I  believe. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  371 

Q.  These  were  all  disposed  of,  and  found  employment  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  committee  here  took  a  recess  of  ten  minutes. 

After  recess,  2  o’clock  p.  m. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MINGO  SIMMONS,  COLORED. 

Mingo  Simmons,  colored,  was  sworn  and  examined,  as  follows  : 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  live  when  you  are  at  home? — Answer.  In 
North  Carolina,  Greene  County. 

Q.  What  is  the  county  seat  of  Greene  County  ? — A.  Snow  Hill. 

Q.  How  far  do  you  live  from  there? — A.  Ten  miles,  it  is  called,  from 
my  house. 

Q.  Have  you  been  out  to  Indiana  recently? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  go  ? — A.  I  went  by  here  ou  the  first  train  that  went 
there. 

Q.  How  many  were  on  that  train?— A.  We  took  fifty-three,  I  think. 

Q.  Were  they  all  men  ? — A.  There  were  three  women  in  the  crowd. 

Q.  Have  you  a  wife  and  children  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  are  they? — A.  In  North  Carolina. 

Q.  Did  you  have  them  out  there  with  you  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  are  you  goiug  now  ? — -A.  I  am  on  my  way  back  home,  when 
I  leave  here. 

Q.  Are  you  going  home  to  stay? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  like  it  out  there  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  not  so  well. 

Q.  You  think  you  can  do  better  at  home? — A.  Yes,  sir;  at  present 
prices  I  can. 

Q.  Could  you  get  no  work  at  Indianapolis? — A.  I  had  a  little  to  do 
at  Greencastle. 

Q.  How  much? — A.  When  I  first  went  down  there  I  laid  around 
three  or  four  weeks  before  I  got  any  work  to  do.  Then  I  went  to  work 
for  a  gentleman  named  Peck. 

Q.  Where  did  he  live? — A.  He  lives  across  from  the  south  depot. 

Q.  Did  he  give  you  any  work  to  do? — A.  He  gave  me  some  work  to 
do  ;  a  little  work. 

Q.  How  much  did  he  pay  you  ? — A.  He  gave  me  50  cents  a  day,  and 
I  boarded  myself  out  of  that. 

Q.  He  is  a  pretty  prominent  man  there,  is  he  not  ? — A.  He  is  said  to 
be,  sir.  They  were  all  strangers  to  me. 

Q.  Mr.  Peck  has  a  large  farm  out  there,  has  he  not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  lives  pretty  well,  there? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  for  him  ? — A.  I  gathered  corn. 

Q.  Did  you  do  a  full  day’s  work? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  unless  there  came 
rain,  and  broke  it  up. 

Q.  Where  did  you  board  ? — A.  There  at  his  house. 

Q.  Did  he  charge  you — did  he  take  it  out  of  your  pay? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  did  your  board  cost  you  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir.  I 
did  not  stay  there  long. 

Q.  How  long  ? — A.  Three  weeks. 

Q.  How  much  money  did  you  get  from  him  ? — A.  I  did  not  get  much. 

Q.  Well,  can  you  tell  us  about  how  much? — A.  I  do  not  know,  sir; 
it  was  all  gone  before  1  got  it.  I  had  to  keep  eating,  you  know,  or  die. 

Q.  When  you  settled  up  at  the  end  of  three  weeks,  how  much  did  you 
get  ? — A.  Not  a  cent. 


372 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Was  it  all  charged  against  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  got  through  with  your  three  weeks7  work,  you  found 
you  were  just  even  and  had  nothing  ahead. — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  have  to  pay  anything  to  him  to  get  to  leave  there,  did 
you  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

b  Q.  What  had  you  got  from  him  besides  your  board  that  it  brought 
you  out  just  even  ? — A.  Nothing  at  all,  sir;  I  worked  there  three  weeks, 
and  the  weather  is  terribly  bad  out  there  at  this  time  of  the  year ;  and 
including  bad  days  the  board  taken  out,  and  me  still  eating,  there  was 
nothing  for  me  left.  You  know  I  had  to  keep  on  eating,  rain  or  shine. 

Q.  When  he  charged  you  for  the  rainy  days  that  you  did  not  work, 
you  just  came  out  even  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  could  have  done  as  well  as  that  in  North  Carolina,  could  you 
not? — A.  I  could  have  done  better,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go  then  ? — A.  I  went  to  a  gentleman  named  Elsbury 
O’Hara. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  that  he  was  very  fond  of  your  race  of  people  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Peck  was  a  Republican,  was  he  not  ? — A.  I  understood  so. 

Q.  Mr.  O’Hara  was? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  politics  yourself  ? — A.  Not  so  much,  sir. 

Q.  You  voted  down  in  North  Carolina,  did  you  not? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
just  as  much  as  I  pleased. 

Q.  How  did  you  vote  ? — A.  I  always  votes  the  Republican  ticket. 

Q.  How  will  you  vote  when  you  get  back  there — the  same  way  ? — A. 
I  expect  to,  when  I  get  back,  vote  the  same  ticket. 

Q.  Nobody  ever  bothered  you  about  it  down  there,  did  they  ? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  you  left  Mr.  Peck’s  and  went  to  Mr.  O’Hara’s. — A.  Yes, 
sir;  I  hired  with  him,  and  staid  there,  I  reckon,  a  month  and  a  half; 
and  I  cleared  ten  dollars  from  him. 

Q.  In  what  length  of  time? — A.  I  reckon  I  staid  there  a  little  over  a 
month  and  a  half. 

Q.  On  what  terms  did  you  work,  by  the  day  or  by  the  month  ?  How 
much  was  he  to  give  you  ? — A.  Ten  dollars. 

Q.  And  he  to  board  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  boarded  me  out  of  that, 
at  that  time.  I  cleared  $10  in  a  month  and  a  half  and  more. 

Q.  How  is  it  that  you  did  not  clear  $15? — A.  I  got  some  clothing 
from  him,  and  that  cut  it  down  to  $10.  When  I  had  gone  there  with 
him,  I  asked  him  what  he  was  going  to  give  me,  and  he  said  $10  a 
month  and  house  rent,  and  board  myself  out  of  that- 

Q.  You  staid  with  him  six  or  seven  weeks? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  you  could  have  done  that  well  in  North  Carolina  ? — 
A.  I  could  have  done  better  in  North  Carolina.  I  can  get  $10  a  month 
there,  and  half  of  Saturday  afternoon,  and  as  much  ground  as  1  want, 
and  a  horse  to  plow  it  with,  and  my  board. 

Q.  You  were  never  offered  anything  like  that  out  there,  were  you  ? — 
A.  No,  sir  ;  nothing  like  that  at  all. 

Q.  Are  the  rest  of  your  people,  who  have  gone  out  there,  in  Putman 
County,  getting  on  better  than  you  did  ? — A.  You  mean  those  emi¬ 
grants  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir. — A.  No,  sir.  Some  of  them  are  getting  only  $5  a  mouth. 

Q.  Men  folks? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  of  the  men  who  are  working  for  Mr.  Stevenson  ? 
— A.  No,  sir ;  they  came  out  from  another  party. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  he  is  paying  them  ? — A.  No,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  373 

Q.  Do  all  those  who  are  out  there  get  work  ? — A.  No,  sir  5  not  all  of 
them  get  work. 

Q.  What  are  those  doing  who  have  not  got  any  work  ?— A.  They  are 
just  walking  around  there. 

Q.  Living  on  what  people  give  them? — A.  Yes,  sir;  going  from  place 
to  place. 

Q.  Do  the  women  get  places  out  there? — A.  No,  sir;  I  saw  some  of 
them  on  Sunday,  and  talked  with  them  about  that. 

Q.  Why  don’t  they  get  places  ? — A.  They  say  they  do  not  suit  out 
there. 

Q.  Do  they  get  as  much  as  they  get  in  North  Carolina  when  they  are 
employed  ? — A  I  have  heard  of  some  of  them  getting  $4,  but  I  hain’t 
seen  that;  women  in  North  Carolina  gets  $5,  and  some  of  them  $4,  ac¬ 
cording  to  what  sort  of  hands  she  is. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  ever  get  in  North  Carolina  ?: — A.  I  have  got 
$12,  but  I  put  it  down  to  $10  all  round  ;  they  call  me  an  extra  hand 
down  there. 

Q.  How  old  are  you  ? — A.  I  am  thirty-two  this  coming  July. 

Q.  How  much  of  a  family  have  you  ?- — A.  I  have  six  children  and  a 
wife. 

Q.  Did  you  live  on  a  piece  of  rented  ground  in  North  Carolina? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  own  it  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  lived  with  a  gentleman,  Mr. 
Ki  chard  Hardy. 

Q.  And  he  gives  you  a  piece  of  land  to  cultivate  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  farm  some  for  yourself? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  have  to  pay  rent? — A.  I  pay  half  the  cotton,  and  a  third 
of  the  corn  and  fodder. 

Q.  How  much  can  one  man  make  at  that  rate? — A.  Well,  it  is  owing 
to  the  ground. 

Q.  You  have  fair,  average  ground,  have  you  not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  take  yourself,  now;  how  much  do  you  make  on  it? — A. 
About  eight  bags. 

Q.  You  do  not  mean  bales  of  cotton  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  call  them 
“bags.” 

Q.  How  much  laud  would  it  take  to  raise  eight  bales  of  cotton  ? — A. 
We  generally  put  in  down  there  about  twelve  acres  of  ground  in  cotton. 

Q.  Can  you  get  eight  bales  or  bags  of  cotton  off  from  that  ? — A.  Yes, 

sir. 

Q.  How  much  is  a  bag  of  cotton  worth,  delivered  at  Snow  Hill  ?- — A. 
Well,  sir,  it  is  owing  to  what  the  price  is. 

Q.  Well,  this  year  for  instance? — A.  Well,  sir,  this  year  for  a  five 
hundred  pound  bag  it  is  worth  10  cents  a  pound. 

Q.  That  would  be  $50  a  bale  ?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So,  if  you  get  four  bales  out  of  eight,  you  would  have  $200  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  would  have  a  patch  of  ground  to  cultivate,  and  a  place 
for  your  cow  and  calf,  and  all  that  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  one-third  of  the  corn  you  raise  goes  to  pay  the  rent  ? — A. 
Two-thirds  of  it  goes  to  pay  the  rent,  and  one-third  comes  to  me. 

Q.  Have  you  a  pretty  good  house  ? — A.  Yes,  sir,  I  had,  because  it 
has  not  been  so  very  long  since  it  was  built. 

Q.  Did  you  live  comfortably  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  get  your  fire-wood  free  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  would  go  down 
in  the  marsh  and  get  as  much  as  I  wanted — and  light  wood,  too. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  last  year  ? — A.-  Last  year  I  hired  out  for  the  sea- 


374 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


soli  to  a  gentleman  ;  be  bad  some  green  marsb  down  there  to  clear  up, 
and  I  hired  with  him. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  a  “season”  in  North  Carolina  ? — A.  From  the 
time  we  plow  until  we  gather  in. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  for  that  gentleman  last  season  ? — A.  I  com¬ 
menced  last  winter  cutting  off  timber;  he  was  to  give  me  five  acres  to 
clean  up,  and  all  I  got  off  from  there  I  was  to  have. 

Q.  For  cleaning  it  up  you  were  to  have  what  you  could  raise  on  it  for 
oue  season  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  this  last  year? — A.  Yes,  sir;  this  last  year  past. 

Q.  And  then  you  made  a  crop  on  the  new  ground  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ; 
part  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  raise  cotton  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  raised  corn.  We  do  not  put 
cotton  in  the  marsh. 

Q.  Nobody  had  abused  you  then,  in  North  Carolina,  to  make  you  un¬ 
comfortable  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  The  white  people  treated  you  kindly  ? — A.  Y"es,  sir  ;  nobody  ever 
bothered  me  at  all. 

Q.  Did  you  belong  to  anybody  before  the  war? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  be¬ 
longed  to  a  gentleman  in  Newbern,  named  Smallwood  ;  and  then  I  came 
to  the  place  where  I  live  now. 

Q.  You  never  had  any  trouble  in  court,  did  you  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  never 
at  all,  at  no  time,  except  that  I  have  been  on  the  jury. 

Q.  Can  you  read  and  write? — A.  No,  sir;  I  cannot  read  and  write. 

Q.  Now,  you  said  you  had  no  trouble  there  of  any  kind ;  how  did  you 
come  to  go  to  Indiana  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  Samuel  Perry  was  knocking  around 
there  among  some  of  the  boys,  and  he  said  there  was  a  circular  telling 
us  to  go  out  to  Kansas;  and  he  said  they  would  give  us  land  and  plenty 
to  do;  that  the  government  wanted  us  to  go  out  there:  and  then  he 
began  to  hold  meetings ;  some  of  them  said  they  were  political,  and 
some  of  them  said  that  if  the  government  was  not  in  it  they  were  not 
going.  Some  of  the  Republicans  and  Democrats  of  the  negroes  both 
said  so;  but  they  kept  up  the  meetings,  and  at  last  we  started  Perry 
out  to  Kansas,  to  that  big  place  down  there  that  he  talked  about,  to  pick 
out  somewhere  for  us  to  go.  He  came  on  here;  he  took  up  a  collection, 
I  do  not  know  of  how  much  money,  to  pay  his  way;  when  he  was  to 
come  back  he  was  to  take  us  on.  When  he  was  here  in  this  city  he 
sent  for  more  money,  and  we  took  up  another  collection,  and  sent  it  to 
him;  but  whether  he  got  it  or  no  I  do  not  know.  He  wrote  again  to 
know  whether  we  would  like  to  go  there,  to  Kansas.  He  said  that  In¬ 
diana  was  a  better  place;  that  in  Kansas  we  would  starve  out ;  and  he 
said  how  would  we  like  it  in  Indiana.  He  sent  circulars  down  there 
and  all  that,  and  we  said  all  right,  to  go  on.  Wre  thought  it  was  a  long 
way  to  go  to  Kansas.  He  came  back  so  soon  that  I  did  not  think  he 
had  been  down  there  anyway.  He  came  back,  and  said  that  he  had 
seen  Mr.  Laugsdale  and  Mr.  Olay,  and  they  had  fixed  up  a  circular.  He 
said,  “Now,  boys,  all  is  fixed  for  you,  and  they  want  you  out  there;” 
and  he  said,  “You  must  go  there.”  He  said  that  we  could  not  go  any 
farther,  nor  go  to  Kansas;  he  said  that  we  would  go  to  Indiana;  that 
they  had  furnished  the  money  ;  but  he  said,  “  They  won’t  furnish  the 
money  for  you  to  go  to  Kansas,  but  you  must  stop  there  in  Indiana.” 
I  said  all  right;  I  would  do  that.  And  he  said  that  the  Preacher  Clay 
said  that  the  women  could  get  $10  a  week  out  there  for  pealing  toma¬ 
toes  and  for  waiting  girls.  That  was  pretty  high,  you  know,  and  it 
took  with  the  negroes  powerful.  I  asked  what  would  become  of  the 
old  women  in  North  Carolina.  He  said  we  could  leave  them  or  take 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


375 


them.  He  said  that  funds  were  all  ready  made  up  there  for  us;  so  we 
concluded  to  go  out.  I  thought  I  would  bring  my  wife  with  me,  and  he 
appointed  a  time  for  us  to  come.  That  day,  though,  I  thought  it  was 
best  to  leave  my  wife  and  look  at  the  thing  for  myself.  He  held  another 
meeting,  and  he  said,  “Now,  men,  the  party  don’t  want  any  women  out 
there.”  He  said,  “The  party  has  been  so  badly  fooled  that  we  don’t 
want  them  out  there.”  He  said,  “  They  want  to  see  our  faces  first,  and 
know  that  its  all  right;”  and  that  is  the  reason  why  only  three  women 
went  out  in  that  first  crowd. 

Q.  How  much  did  he  tell  you  the  men  got  out  there  ? — A.  He  said  we 
would  get  $15  month  now,  and  more  in  the  spring. 

Q.  When  spring  opened,  how  much  were  you  to  get? — A.  From 
eighteen  to  twenty  or  twenty-live  dollars  a  month. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  that  circular  sa.d  ?  Was  it  read  over  to  you  ? — 
A.  He  was  reading  something,  but  I  do  not  know  whether  the  circular 
said  it  or  no. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  of  Perry? — A.  Sam  Perry?  I  think  he  is  a 
bad  fellow. 

Q.  You  think  he  is  a  bad  fellow,  do  you? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  am  down 
on  people  going  around  among  the  ignorant  people  to  fool  them. 

Q.  He  fooled  you,  did  he? — A..  Yes,  sir;  he  fooled  the  whole  bustin’ 
bilin’  of  us. 

Q.  What  did  you  find  about  the  schools  out  there?  That  was  one  of 
his  big  points,  was  it  not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  about  the  schools,  I  found 
that  true. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  about  the  climate  ? — A.  He  said  it  was  just  one 
degree  colder  there  than  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  about  that  ? — A.  1  think  he  did  not  get  that 
down  right.  But  it  is  not  the  cold  out  there  that  I  am  standing  back 
home  on.  It  is  my  labor  and  forage  I  am  after.  I  am  frost-bitten  now  ; 
I  never  was  before  in  my  life;  and  if  I  live  I  am  never  going  to  be  no 
more. 

Q.  What  were  you  doing  when  you  got  frost-bitten  ? — A.  I  was  shuck¬ 
ing  corn ;  it  was  wet  and  muddy  and  miry  out  there. 

Q.  Do  you  think  you  want  to  be  frost-bitten  any  more? — A.  No,  sir; 
not  by  him  nor  Indiana  either.  But  I  sort  of  smelt  a  rat  when  I  first 
came  to  this  here  depot,  down  here.  I  said  to  him,  “  Why  ain’t  you 
doing  what  you  were  going  to  do?”  He  said  he  hadn’t  seen  the  lead¬ 
ing  parties  yet.  I  said  I  did  not  know  we  were  going  to  stay  here  more 
than  a  day,  and  now  it  was  two  days ;  and  he  said  it  was  no  difference 
to  me,  and  for  me  to  keep  still.  I  said,  “  What  did  you  come  to  this 
place  for?”  We  came  here  at  your  beck  and  call,  and  you  ought  to 
come  to  us  now  and  help  us  out.  We  had  to  go  to  the  other  depot  down 
here;  and  he  began  to  wean  off  from  us  clean  till  we  got  to  Green  Cas¬ 
tle  ;  I  went  to  Indianapolis,  but  to  Greencastle  I  would  not  go. 

Q.  At  what  time  did  you  get  there  ? — A.  I  got  there  over  night. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  your  own  way  out  there  ? — A.  I  paid  $19;  that  is 
what  I  paid  to  the  emigrant  society  and  the  exodus. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  Perry  anything  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  to  pay  it? — A.  1  paid  my  fareage ;  and  Perry 
said  the  head  authorities  said  for  all  that  had  had  money  to  pay  out  for 
the  rest  up  here  to  Washington  City,  and  from  here  the  road  was  already 
opened  for  us.  There  were  several  standing  around  there  who  wanted 
to  come,  and  who  had  no  money,  and  I  pulled  out  my  money  and  paid 
it  for  them  on  Sam  Perry’s  say-so.  I  paid  that  money  to  get  here,  and 
then  I  paid  another  dollar  right  here  at  the  depot. 


376 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  What  did  you  pay  that  for  ? — A.  To  help  the  others.  Peter  Will¬ 
iams  had  his  roll-book  going  along  raising  a  collection,  and  I  gave  him 
a  dollar. 

Q.  Where  is  Peter  Williams  now  ? — A.  He  is  in  a  coal  mine  down 
below  Greencastle. 

Q.  Do  you  know  T.  C.  Williams? — A.  No ;  I  do  not  know  him. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Scott  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Taylor  Evans  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  got  any  money  to  go  home  on  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  the  money  to  come  here  with  ? — A.  I  sent 
home  for  it. 

Q.  To  whom  ? — A.  To  old  Dr.  Howard’s  son. 

Q.  Is  he  a  friend  of  yours  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  send  you  the  money  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  got  anything  to  go  home  on  from  here  ? — A.  No,  sir  pit 
cost  me  $27  from  Greencastle  here. 

Q.  Not  from  Greencastle  here  ? — A.  I  think  that  is  what  I  paid,  sir. 

Q.  They  robbed  you,  then.  Where  did  you  buy  your  ticket  ? — A.  I 
bought  it  at  Indianapolis  ;  I  paid  my  fare  on  the  train  from  Greencastle 
to  Indianapolis,  and  bought  a  ticket  from  Indianapolis  here  ;  I  think 
the  man  I  got  it  from  said  he  paid  $16  for  it ;  and  then  $1  on  top  of 
that  to  Greencastle  was  $17.55. 

Q.  And  that  is  what  you  paid  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  is  it. 

Q.  How  much  money  did  Mr.  Howard  send  you  ? — A.  Twenty  dol¬ 
lars. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Did  you  write  any  letters  back,  or  have  any  written,  to  your  col¬ 
ored  friends  at  home  telling  them  not  to  come  there? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  wrote  them  for  yon  ? — A.  One  colored  fellow,  who  went  there 
with  me ;  he  wrote  them. 

Q.  You  cannot  write  yourself? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  those  letters  received  there? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  right  smart  of 
them.  I  got  letters  back  from  them. 

Q.  Did  anybody  deceive  you  about  those  letters  ? — A.  I  got  one  man 
to  write  a  letter  for  me,  I  do  not  know  who  he  was,  and  he  did  not  write 
it  exactly  as  I  wanted  him  to,  and  I  threw  it  into  the  tire,  and  burnt  it 
up. 

Q.  What  did  you  tell  him  to  write? — A.  I  said,  this  is  not  the  place 
for  colored  folks ;  that  they  said  it  would  be  better  in  the  spring,  but 
there  was  no  capital  or  labor  for  them  ;  that  it  was  very  cold,  and  they 
better  not  come  out  there. 

Q.  How  did  he  write  it  ? — A.  He  wrote  to  them  to  come  right  on  ; 
that  it  was  all  right,  and  that  I  was  as  fat  as  a  bear,  and  weighed  over 
200  pounds. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  to  find  out  that  he  had  deceived  you  ? — A.  I 
didn’t  seal  up  the  letter ;  he  wanted  to  send  it  right  away  ;  but  I  kept 
it  for  this  man  near  me  to  read  ;  I  bu’sted  it  open,  and  showed  it  to  him, 
and  told  him  what  I  had  told  the  man  to  put  into  it;  he  saw  it,  and 
read  what  that  white  man  had  said,  and  it  didn’t  work  right. 

Q.  Who  was  that  man  ? — A.  He  was  a  white  man  at  Greencastle ;  I 
don’t  know  his  name;  I  don’t  know  many  folks  out  there. 

Q.  Did  anybody  say  anything  to  you  before  you  went  there,  or  after 
you  got  there,  about  how  you  were  to  vote? — A.  Well,  sir,  they  said, 
“I  reckon  you  are  all  voters?”  and  I  said,  “yes ;”  but  I  don’t  know 
whether  the  man  that  said  that  was  a  Republican  or  a  Democrat.  Di- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


377 


rectlv  I  caught  up  with  another  fellow,  and  he  said,  “All  you  folks  that 
are  coming  ought  to  come  before  the  1st  of  May  ;  after  that  we  don’t 
want  no  more  of  you.”  I  said  to  the  boys,  “  Look  here,  boys,  this  is 
poor  encouragement ;  our  folks  in  North  Carolina  can’t  get  out  here 
before  that  time.” 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  he  wanted  them  to  be  there  by  the  1st  of  May 
for  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  don’t  know  what  his  politics  was  ;  but  he  said  after 
the  1st  of  May  he  didn’t  want  another  one  of  us  darkies  to  move  in 
there. 

Q.  Where  was  he  when  he  said  that  to  you  ? — A.  It  was  at  the  depot 
down  at  Greencastle. 

Q.  Did  he  say  that  to  anybody  else  ? — A.  There  were  four  or  five 
others  standing  about  there. 

Q.  You  think  you  can  do  better  in  North  Carolina  than  you  did  out 
there  ? — A.  At  present  prices  I  can. 

Q.  You  have  an  opportunity  to  educate  your  children  in  North  Caro¬ 
lina,  haven’t  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  we  have  schools  there. 

Q.  Do  you  have  the  same  chance  as  the  white  people? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  be  summoned  before  this  committee? — A. 
I  do  not  know,  sir. 

Q.  Who  first  spoke  to  you  about  it  ? — A.  Do  you  mean  before  the 
committee?  I  don’t  know  who  was  the  first  man  who  spoke  to  me 
about  it. 

Q.  Where  were  you  when  you  were  spoken  to? — A.  I  was  in  Green¬ 
castle  ;  I  was  talking  about  coming,  and  they  wanted  me  to  stop  here 
when  I  came  through. 

Q.  Who  did? — A.  Some  persons  down  there. 

Q.  Did  Sheriff  Lewman  want  you  to  stop  here? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  what  he  wanted  you  to  testify  ? — A  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  what  to  say  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  what  he  wanted  you  to  do? — A.  No,  sir.  He  said 
that  they  might  want  me  before  this  committee. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Sheriff  Lewman  ? — A.  I  never  saw  him*  but  three 
times,  and  but  twice  to  know  him. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Allen,  his  deputy? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  know 
him. 

Q.  When  did  you  get  the  money  to  come  here  on  ? — A.  I  got  it  last 
Saturday;  it  came  Thursday,  but  I  was  out  in  the  country  when  it 
came. 

Q.  AVho  handed  you  the  money  ? — A.  Sheriff' Lewman  got  it  for  me  ;. 
I  saw  by  the  first  letter  where  they  were  going  to  send  it. 

Q.  Did  Sheriff  Lewman  pass  himself  off  on  you  as  a  Republican  ? — A. 
No,  sir ;  he  said  he  was  a  full-blooded  Democrat. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  his  passing  hiinselfoff  as  a  Republican  on  others  ? 
— A.  I  heard  of  it,  but  I  do  not  know  it.  I  saw  him  at  Greencastle, 
and  then  I  came  up  to  Indianapolis  and  saw  him. 

Q.  It  was  after  you  was  here  that  he  gave  you  that  money  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  I  never  got  it,  however,  until  Monday;  it  was  on  Thursday 
before  last,  and  I  did  not  come  to  town  until  Saturday. 

Q.  You  had  talked  with  him  about  it  before  ? — A.  I  said  I  wanted  to 
go  home ;  he  was  asking  me  how  I  liked  the  country,  and  I  told  him, 
and  1  said  if  I  had  mouey  I  wanted  to  go  home. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  anything  of  the  Democrats  not  hiring  your  people 
out  there  ? — A.  No,  sir. 


378 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Did  you  hear  of  some  houses  that  were  burnt  out  there  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  I  heard  of  one  that  a  tree  was  sawed  down  on  it. 

Q.  Was  that  because  they  were  going  to  let  colored  people  live  in  it  ? 
— A.  That  is  what  I  heard. 

Q.  You  thought  then,  that  if  you  were  getting  into  a  place  where 
there  were  such  Democrats  as  that,  it  wasno  better  than  it  wasathome? — 
A.  No,  sir ;  for  I  do  not  know  who  was  doing  that.  I  know  the  poor  classes 
out  there  are  Republicans,  and  they  do  not  want  colored  people  in  there ; 
they  say  they  take  away  their  labor,  and  cut  down  their  wages,  and 
they  are  against  it. 

Q.  You  think  they  are  opposed  to  your  coining  there? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
I  know  that  they  are.  There  is  one  party  among  the  colored  folks  out 
there  that  do  not  want  us  to  come  and  one  party  that  does. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  You  were  asked  who  first  told  you  that  you  must  come  before 
this  committee  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  cannot  remember  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  talked  with  anybody  about  what  you  were  going  to 
swear  to  here? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  man  over  there  (indicating  Mr.  O.  S.  B.  Wall)  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  conversation  with  him  upon  that  subject? — A. 
He  said  something  to  me  about  it,  and  told  me  who  he  was;  but  I  did 
not  pay  much  attention  to  it. 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  Did  you  not  complain  pretty  bitterly,  while  you  were  passing 
through  here,  about  your  treatment  in  North  Carolina? — A.  No,  sir;  I 
never  said  anything  about  it;  the  other  folks  were  talking,  and  I  was 
standing  by  and  listening;  I  said  that,  if  the  prices  were  such  as  the 
circular  said,  it  was  better  than  the  prices  we  were  getting  in  North 
Carolina. 

Q.  I  mean  down  here  at  the  depot;  were  you  not  complaining  very 
bitterly  down  there  about  the  Democrats  in  North  Carolina  ? — A.  No, 
sir ;  I  nev<?r  said  anything,  except  as  to  present  prices  in  Indiana. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  You  thought  if  you  could  get  better  wages  you  would  go? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  believed  the  circular  and  what  Sam.  Perry  said  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Now,  you  are  going  back  home? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  am  going  back 
home. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  And  going  to  stay  there  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  if  I  ever  get  there. 

The  committee  then  adjourned  to  10.30  a.  m.  Monday. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


379 


SIXTEENTH  DAY. 

Washington,  Monday,  February  16,  1880. 

The  committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment,  and  proceeded  with  the 
taking  of  testimony. 

TESTIMONY  OF  GREEN  RUFFIN. 

Green  Ruffin  (colored)  was  sworn  and  examined  as  follows : 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  State  where  you  live  when  at  home  ?— Answer.-  I  live  in 
Wilson  County,  North  Carolina. 

Q.  How  long  is  it  since  you  left  home? — A.  Its  a  bout  two  mouths 
now,  as  near  as  I  can  get  at  it. 

Q.  Where  have  you  been  ? — A.  To  Indianapolis. 

Q  How  did  you  come  to  go  there? — A.  Well,  sir,  there  came  news 
about  there  in  the  settlement,  that  if  we  would  all  agree  to  go  out  to 
the  Western  States,  to  Indianapolis,  we  could  live  considerably  better 
out  there.  Well,  it  get  my  head  deranged,  so  I  had  no  sense  to  make 
any  bargains  to  work  at  home,  and  I  said  I  would  go,  aud  I  would 
carry  my  folks ;  but  I  didn’t,  and  I  put  off  and  goes  myself. 

Q.  Have  you  a  family  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  in  the  family  ? — A.  1  have  a  wife  and  three  children. 

Q.  Did  you  go  with  the  first  party  that  went? — A.  No,  sir;  I  went 
with  the  second  party. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  your  own  way  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  it  cost  you  to  get  there  ? — A.  I  think  it 
was  $15.65. 

Q.  Well,  when  you  got  there,  what  did  you  do  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  I 
done  nothing  for  about  two  or  three  weeks. 

Q.  Did  you  get  any  work  at  all? — A.  Sometimes  I  could  get  some — 
just  a  little  more  than  enough  to  board  me  and  pay  rent.  I  tried  every 
day  to  get  work,  except  on  Sunday. 

Q.  During  the  two  months  that  you  were  there  how  much  work  did 
you  do  ? — A.  I  can’t  tell. 

Q.  Did  you  work  half  the  time  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  work  one  day  in  three? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  worked  one  week 
in  about  three  weeks.  Maybe  I  would  get  a  week’s  work  for  a  whole 
week  at  a  time. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  get? — A.  I  got  a  dollar  a  day  and  boarded 
myself,  and  furnished  my  own  tools. 

Q.  What  sort  of  work  did  you  do  ? — A.  I  was  putting  in  sewers 
about  the  city. 

Q,  Did  you  have  to  furnish  your  own  shovel? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  but 
they  furnished  the  picks. 

Q.  And  you  got  a  dollar  and  boarded  yourself? — A.  l^es,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  find  much  demand  there  for  work  ? — A.  There  was 
mighty  few  people  there  were  looking  for  workmen. 

Q.  Were  there  a  few  or  many  who  were  looking  for  work  ? — A.  There 
were  a  great  many  of  them  looking  for  work,  for  there  are  plenty  of 
people  there  as  bad  off  as  we  were. 

Q.  How  much  wages  were  you  to  get  out  there  ? — A.  Fifteen  dollars 
a  month  on  a  farm,  and  house  to  live  in,  firewood  furnished,  and  a 
cow  and  calf  to  milk  extra  for  each  family. 

Q.  Did  you  find  any  truth  in  such  statements? — A.  None  at  all,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  on  your  way  back  to  North  Carolina  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


380 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Do  you  expect  to  stay  there? — A.  I’m  aiming  to  get  back  home 
and  die  there. 

Q.  You  are  going  to  stay  when  you  get  there? — A.  I  am  going 
to  stay  right  at  home  and  advise  all  the  rest  to  stay. 

Q.  What  kind  of  advice  are  you  going  to  give  them  ? — A.  I  am  going 
to  tell  them,  u  You  have  got  a  home,  and  you  stay  there”;  for  its  an 
abomination  to  go  where  you  have  got  none. 

Q.  You  speak  in  the  church  at  home  sometimes,  don’t  you  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir ;  sometimes  in  the  prayer  meetings  and  round  about. 

Q.  Do  you  expect  to  speak  to  them  about  this  thing  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
if  I  live,  I  expect  to  tell  them  about  these  things. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  a  great  outrage  on  your  race? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  a 
regular  abomination. 

Q.  You  belonged  to  Mr.  Ruffin,  who  was  once  in  Congress,  did  you 
not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  have  you  been  treated  since  the  war  down  there? — A.  As 
good  as  I  want  to  be.  Nobody  has  ever  bothered  me,  and  when  I  worked 
for  them  they  paid  me. 

Q.  Did  you  vote  down  there  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  at  every  election.  I  have 
never  missed  any  one  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  What  ticket  did  you  vote  ? — A.  The  Republican  ticket. 

Q.  Did  anybody  ever  keep  you  from  voting  it? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  go  to  court  during  court  week? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  go  to  see 
how  court  goes  on  and  the  cases  there. 

Q.  Did  you  live  there  on  the  old  plantation  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  have  a 
piece  of  ground  there  yet. 

Q.  Do  you  rent  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  rent  from  a  landholder. 

Q.  What  sort  of  terms  do  you  get  ? — A.  Weil,  sir,  if  you  tend  the  lands 
and  they  furnish  the  teams  and  all  the  utensils  and  seed,  and  I  do  the 
labor  and  board  myself,  I  get  a  half. 

Q.  Do  you  make  a  living  for  yourself  and  family  in  that  way  ?— -A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  heard  of  those  big  wages,  you  thought  you  could  do  bet¬ 
ter  out  there  than  at  home  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  its  a  man’s  duty  to  do  better 
if  he  can,  but  if  you  don’t  like  it,  why  then  don’t  take  up  with  it. 

Q.’  You  don’t  like  it,  and  you  are  going  back  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  of  your  people  out  there  would  go  back  from  Indiana 
if  they  could  ? — A.  I  know  of  two  families,  and  I  think  they  have  some¬ 
thing  of  the  rise  of  eight  or  ten  children,  who  asked  me  to  do  something 
to  get  them  back,  and  I  said  I  would  do  my  best. 

Q.  And  you  are  going  to  try  to  get  them  back  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  get  back? — A.  I  had  worked  and  got  seven  dollars 
that  I  saved ;  and  the  man  that  I  was  with  wrote  for  money,  and  they 
sent  him  $35,  and  he  lent  me  seven,  and  with  the  seven  I  had  it  brought 
me  here  ;  and  when  I  got  here  I  had  nothing  to  eat,  but  I  was  this  nigh 
home. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  the  white  people  out  there  you  were  going  home  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  declared  I  wouldn’t  live  in  their  State. 

Q.  Did  any  of  them  advise  you  to  stay? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  said  they 
did  not  blame  you  immigrants  for  wanting  to  go  home,  but  said,  you 
try  and  stay  until  after  the  Presidential  election,  and  then  we  think  it 
is  best  for  you  to  go  home;  and  I  said  all  right,  and  I  went  on  my  way 
and  come  here. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  men  who  said  that  to  you  ? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  You  have  been  raised  in  North  Carolina,  I  believe.  Now  tell  us 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  381 

how  you  found  the  weather  out  there  in  Indiana  for  your  people  ? — A. 
It  was  too  cold,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  a  good  many  people  among  your  emigrants  who 
were  sick0? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  some  two  or  three  died  in  the  time.  There 
were  little  children  who  were  carried  to  the  graveyard  and  some  old 
ones. 

Q.  Do  you  know  this  man  Perry— Sam.  Perry  ? — A.  I  know  him  if  I 
see  him,  but  I  wasn’t  acquainted  with  him. 

Q.  Did  he  make  speeches  down  there  in  your  country  about  this  emi¬ 
gration  matter? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  know  of  anybody  making  any 
speeches  in  Wilson,  but  when  I  got  to  town  I  found  this  thing  was  ail 
through  there.  I  caught  hold  of  it  and  it  worried  me  so  that  I  got 
away. 

Senator  Blair.  I  want  you  to  tell  us  how  many  people  advised  you 
to  stay  in  Indiana  until  after  the  election? — A.  I  didn’t  take  any  notice 
how  many — no  more  than  I  know  this  was  spoke  to  me. 

Q.  How  many  times  ? — A.  Twice. 

Q.  Only  twice? — A.  Only  twice  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Were  they  there  in  Indianapolis? — A.  Yes,  sir;  right  in  the  city. 

Q.  You  have  no  knowledge  of  the  persons  who  said  that  to  you  ? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  kept  quiet  about  it? — A.  I  said  all  right  and  walked 
right  on. 

Q.  How  many  white  people  did  you  talk  with  while  you  were  there? 
— A.  A  great  many. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  with  them  probably  a  thousand  times? — A.  Yes,  sir, 
more  or  less. 

Q.  And  twice  only  somebody  said  for  you  to  hold  on  until  after  the 
election  ?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  can’t  give  the  names  of  those  persons  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  their  politics  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  knew  you  were  dissatisfied  out  there  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  they 
could  see  that. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  but  what  they  were  Democrats  who  wanted  you 
to  stay  there  and  vote  the  Democratic  ticket? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

Q.  These  Democrats  are  pretty  sharp,  and  up  to  a  great  many  tricks, 
ain’t  they  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  reckon  so. 

Q.  How  much  money  did  you  have  when  you  started  to  Indiana? — A. 
$45. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  pay  to  get  there? — A.  $15.65. 

Q.  And  it  cost  you  something  to  live  on  the  way? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  loaned  out  $8  to  a  colored 
man  who  was  going  on. 

Q.  Then  it  must  have  cost  you  some  $28  ? — A.  I  never  counted  it  up. 

Q.  When  you  got  ready  to  go  back,  when  did  you  start  from  Indiana  ? 
—  A.  Thursday  morning  at  five  o’clock. 

Q.  This  last  week? — ±±.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  arrive  here  ? — A.  Friday  night,  at  seven  o’clock. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  be  here  this  morning? — A.  Well,  sir,  Mr. 
Barnes  requested  of  me  to  stay. 

The  Chairman.  I  subpoenaed  him,  Mr.  Blair. 

The  Witness.  Mr.  Barnes  requested  of  me  to  stay,  and  so  I  staid. 

Senator  Blair.  Did  anybody  else  request  you  to  stay  ? — A.  I  don’t 
know  if  Mr.  Vance  didn’t  say  he  would  like  for  me  to  tarry. 

Q.  How  did  anybody  know  you  had  anything  to  tell  about  this  emigra¬ 
tion  ? — A.  They  spoke  to  me  in  the  depot,  and  I  said  I  was  going  home 


382 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


from  Indianapolis  ;  and  they  asked  me  how  I  liked  it,  and  I  said  I  didn’t 
like  it  all.  I  said  to  them  “  Do  you  know  of  a  man  here  by  the  name 
of  Mr.  Barnes  ?”  They  said  “  Yes.” 

Q.  How  did  you  come  to  know  him  ? — A.  Because  I  was  raised  with 
him  right  there  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  You  sa57  you  got  work  only  a  third  of  the  time  you  were  out  there  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  had  been  at  home,  how  much  would  you  have  gotten? — A. 
I  would  have  worked  every  day  if  the  weather  was  suitable. 

Q.  You  could  work  all  the  time  there? — A.  Y"es,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  any  idle  people  down  there? — A.  Yes,  sir;  if  they  make 
themselves  idle — that  is  all  there  is  about  it. 

Q.  What  is  the  demand  for  labor?  Is  it  so  that  the  whole  colored 
people  there  can  work? — A.  Yes,  sir;  if  they  want. 

Q.  From  January  to  January? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  work  out  yourself? — A.  I  farm,  sir. 

Q,  You  rent  land,  do  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  mean,  then,  that  you  can  work  on  the  piece  of  land  that  you 
hire  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  mean  that  your  people  generally  can  have  labor  by  the 
day,  every  single  day  in  the  year  ? — A.  They  don’t  do  much  of  that  kind 
of  hiring  down  there  with  us. 

Q.  You  mean,  then,  they  can  work  on  their  land  or  land  that  they  hire  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  there  are  a  good  many  days  that  you  don’t  have  to  work  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir.  There  are  a  good  many  days  when  you  won’t  have  to  work 
if  you  are  up  with  your  business. 

Q.  And  it  is  in  that  way  that  you  mean  that  you  have  work  every  day 
in  the  year  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  man  can  do  that  in  Indiana,  can’t  he  ? — A.  I  didn’t  inquire  about 
that. 

Q.  When  you  got  there  you  didn’t  have  any  such  work  as  that  to  do  ? 
— A.  No,  sir;  I  didn’t. 

Q.  But  you  got  a  chance  to  dig  sewers  in  Indianapolis  ? — A.  Yres,  sir; 
I  struck  it  for  awhile. 

Q.  That  is  not  good  work  for  farmers  to  do,  is  it? — A.  No,  sir;  but 
they  tell  me  they  don’t  have  any  use  for  farmers  much  until  about 
March.  I  went  round  for  about  ten  miles  from  the  city  all  round. 
Some  of  them  said  they  would  take  me  in  March,  but  I  said  I  couldn’t 
be  there  in  March.  They  asked  me  where'I  was  going  to  be.  I  said  I 
reckon  I  would  be  dead  if  I  staid  there,  for  I  must  have  something  to 
eat  between  this  and  March. 

Q.  Yet  you  say  you  accumulated  $7  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  that’s  noth¬ 
ing  to  what  I  would  get  at  home. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  you  had  the  chance  out  there  that  you  have  at 
home  ? — A.  Not  the  beginning  of  the  chances. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a  fact  that  a  good  many  colored  people  have  got  chances  to 
work,  and  have  scattered  out  among  the  farmers  and  are  doing  well  ? — 
A.  Well,  sir,  some  of  them  have,  and  if  they  don’t  like  it  they  say  they 
do. 

Q.  If  they  don’t  like  it  they  say  they  do  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  don’t  see 
how  they  liked  it  though,  when  they  say  they  can’t  get  work  and  are 
most  tit  to  starve. 

Q.  You  think  they  don’t  tell  it,  then,  as  it  is? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t 
think  so,  because  I  could  see  their  condition  myself. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  383 

Q.  At  the  same  time  they  seem  to  like  it  better  than  North  Carolina? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  saw  many  men  who  have  families,  and  who  want  to  get 
back  home? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  told  me  so. 

Q.  And  these  are  the  only  ones  you  know  who  want  to  get  back  ? — A. 
They  are  the  only  ones  who  told  me  so. 

Q.  You  are  a  preacher,  and  a  sociable  sort  of  a  man,  and  you  go  round 
among  them  a  great  deal  at  Indianapolis? — A.  I  didn’t  have  anything 
to  say  of  the  Scriptures  among  them. 

Q.  You  saw  them  and  talked  with  them,  though  ? — A.  Mighty  little  ; 
I  talked  mighty  little  myself. 

Q.  But  you  saw  most  of  them  and  talked  with  them  ? — A.  I  couldn’t 
say  that  and  tell  the  truth. 

Q.  But  you  saw  a  good  deal  of  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  saw  a  good  deal 
of  them. 

Q.  And  two  of  them  said  they  wanted  to  get  back  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  you  seem  to  have  a  good  deal  of  feeling  in  this  matter  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir  ;  I  have. 

Q.  And  you  want  to  get  back  home  and  die  there  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  don’t  want  to  die  right  away,  do  you  ? — A.  I  hope  not, 
but  I  am  going  to  tell  them  not  to  go  out  there  to  Indiana  ;  I  ain’t  going 
myself  no  more ;  but  I  shall  not  pester  them  if  they  want  to  go  and  find 
out  for  themselves. 

Q.  You  think  they  have  a  right  to  go  if  they  want  to  ? — A.  YYs,  sir. 

Q.  They  have  the  same  right  to  go  to  Indiana  as  a  white  man  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  with  the  white  people  out  there  much  as  to  whether 
they  thought  the  colored  people  ought  to  go  there  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  politicians  out  there,  and  talk  politics  with  them? 
— A.  I  don’t  talk  politics  with  anybody  if  I  can  help  it. 

Q.  Why  not  ? — A.  I  don’t  believe  in  taking  up  too  much  time  with  that 
sort  of  stuff,  and  if  I  can  get  labor  and  get  my  money  for  it,  I  rather  for 
that. 

Q.  But  the  question  is,  did  you  talk  any  politics  out  there? — A.  Not 
unless  somebody  attacked  me  about  it. 

Q.  Did  anybody  attack  you  with  it? — A.  I  told  you  that  gentleman 
did,  who  asked  me  to  stay  until  after  the  day  of  election. 

Q.  Were  there  any  others  who  talked  the  merits  of  the  political  ques¬ 
tion  with  you  ;  argued  with  you  about  it  ? — A.  Not  that  I  can  remem¬ 
ber. 

Q.  Those  two  Republicans  or  Democrats  told  you  to  stay  until  after 
the  election  ? — A.  I  didn’t  know  what  their  politics  were. 

Q.  Didn’t  they  tell  you  you  would  have  an  easy  time  when  it  came 
spring  ? — A.  Some  did  and  some  did  not ;  so  me  of  them  said  it  would  be 
the  same  thing  all  the  year. 

Q.  Some  of  them  said  it  was  better  for  you  to  go  out  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  they  were  Republicans  or  Democrats  ? — 
A.  I  am  certain  there  were  two  of  them  who  were  Republicans ;  they 
were  the  same  two  who  sent  off  my  letters. 

Q.  They  were  Republicans  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  were  not  anxious,  then,  for  you  to  stay? — A.  They  were  Re¬ 
publicans,  and  they  said  I  had  better  go  back. 

Q.  They  advised  you  to  come  back  home  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  very  strong  Republicans  ? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  good  looking  men?— A.  Yes,  sir;  they  looked  like  in  - 
telligent  men. 


384 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  And  they  advised  you  to  leave  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they 
thought  it  best,  as  they  said  we  were  most  ou  to  starvation. 

Q.  These  people  who  go  out  there  didn’t  take  money  to  buy  land, 
and  so  they  have  to  work  and  earn  some  before  they  can  make  any 
purchases  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  a  man  went  to  Indiana  with  three  or  five  hundred  dollars  in  his 
pocket  he  could  do  as  he  pleased,  could  he  not? — A.  Five  hundred  dol¬ 
lars  wouldn’t  go  far  with  him  there  to  buy  land. 

Q.  How  far  would  it  go  in  North  Carolina? — A.  A  right  smart  piece. 

Q.  It  wouldn’t  buy  much  in  Raleigh  would  it? — A.  Well,  sir,  I 
haven’t  been  there  since  l  was  a  boy. 

Q.  Well,  $500  wouldn’t  buy  much  in  a  city  ? — A.  I  think  not. 

Q.  And  wouldn’t  do  so  in  Indianapolis  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  don’t  sup¬ 
pose  it  would. 

Q.  Suppose  you  were  to  go  out  into  the  unsettled  parts  of  Indiana  as 
in  North  Carolina,  then  it  would  go  pretty  far,  wouldn’t  it? — A.  I  can’t 
keep  up  with  you  about  that ;  I  am  telling  only  as  far  as  I  went. 

Q.  Well,  if  you  were  to  go  out  in  the  country  it  would  go  farther  than 
in  the  city  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  ;  I  have  not  any  experience  of  it. 

Q.  (By  the  Chairman.)  Mr.  Blair  has  asked  you  if  you  believe  it  is  right 
for  a  man  to  go  anywhere  in  this  country  that  be  pleases,  and  you  said 
you  do  think  so.  Do  you  think  it  is  right  to  be  induced  to  leave  your 
home  and  go  away  where  you  are  not  known,  and  where  you  cannot  get 
work,  by  means  of  falsehoods  and  misrepresentations  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  a  man  ought  to  be  induced  in  that  way  to  go 
where  he  would  be  worse  off ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  think  so. 

Q.  You  think  that  has  been  done  in  this  case  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  with 
me  and  all  the  rest. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  feeling  of  the  colored  people  towards  this  man 
Perry  ? — A.  The  feeling,  so  far  as  I  presume  of  it,  is  great  dissatisfaction 
with  him. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Syphax,  I  will  swear  you  as  the  next  witness. 

The  witness,  John  B.  Syphax  (colored),  addressed  the  chair  : 

Mr.  Chairman,  allow  me  to  state  here  that  the  testimony  which  I 
have  to  give  before  your  honorable  committee  will  relate  altogether  to 
the  Senator  from  Minnesota,  Mr.  Windom,  who  is  a  member  of  this 
committee.  L  expect  to  charge  him,  and  1  believe  that  I  can  prove  that 
he  originated  this  matter,  and  I  make  the  special  request  that  he  be 
here  to  listen  to  it.  I  shall  regard  him  as  the  originator  of  this  move¬ 
ment,  and  I  shall  be  glad  to  have  him  here  .and  hear  my  testimony. 

The  Chairman.  Very  well,  we  will  not  examine  you  until  he  is 
present. 


TESTIMONY  OF  J.  W.  DODD. 

J.  W.  Dodd  was  sworn  and  examined  as  follows : 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  You  may  state  where  you  reside. — Answer.  Indianapolis,  Iud. 
Q.  State  what  positions  you  have  occupied  in  the  State. — A.  I  have 
occupied  official  positions  in  the  State  for  some  years,  but  not  now. 

Q.  You  have  been  auditor  of  the  State? — A.  I  have  been  for  two  terms 
or  four  years. 

Q.  You  reside  at  Indianapolis  now?-— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Has  your  attention  been  called  to  the  matter  of  this  emigration  of 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


385 


colored  people  into  our  State? — A.  Yes,  sir;  X  have  beard  of  it  and 
read  of  it  in  the  newspapers,  and  have  seen  them  arrive  in  droves  and 
squads,  and  noticed  them  afterwards  on  the  streets,  and  talked  to  a  good 
many  of  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  of  them  making  any  statements  on  the  subject  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was  present  when  some  of  them  made  and  subscribed 
to  certain  statements,  and  I  have  read  some  statements  made  when  I 
wasn’t  present. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  names  of  any  of  them  who  made  statements 
to  \our  knowledge  ? 

(The  witness* produced  a  paper  containing  names,  and  then  answered:) 

A.  Well,  I  talked  with  Needham  Green  and  Peter  Dew,  John  Taylor, 
Louis  Williams,  a  man  named  Miller,  and  Robert  Mawley. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  Needham  Green  making  a  statement  in  writing? 
— A.  1  didn’t  see  it;  I  only  know  what  I  heard  him  say. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  Peter  Dew  making  a  statement  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  him  make  it?— A.  I  don’t  know  as  I  did.  I  think  I 
was  present  when  he  signed  it;  I  wasn’t  present  when  lie  made  it. 

Q.  See  if  you  can  identify  that  as  a  copy  of  the  paper  you  know  of  his 
making  (handing  witness  a  paper).— A.  lam  not  certain,  sir,  that  1 
was  present  when  he  made  that  statement,  but  I  heard  him  state  all  that 
was  here. 

Q.  If  you  can  identify  that  as  the  statement  substantially  made  to 
you,  do  so. — A.  Yes,  sir;  1  heard  him  state  all  that  is  here. 

Q.  You  may  read  that  then. 

The  Witness  (reading):  u  I,  Peter  Dew,  make  the  following  statement 
of  my  own  free  will  this  the  19th  day  of  June,  1880:  I,  with  400  other 
persons  emigrated  to  Indiana  four  weeks  ago.  I  came  here  through  pre¬ 
vious  promises  made  by  Samuel  Perry  and  Peter  Williams,  both  of  whom 
are  Republicans.  They  represented  that  I  would  receive  for  labor  on 
farms  $15  per  mouth,  provisions,  and  a  cow  and  calf,  and  in  the  city 
would  be  paid  $2.50  per  day.  They  also  said  that  each  one  who  came 
would  be  given  and  furnished  a  house;  that  we  could  buy  land  in  any 
tract  that  we  wanted  for  from  one  dollar  to  a  dollar  and  a  half  per  acre. 
Not  one  of  these  promises  is  true,  so  far  as  I  know.  I  haven’t  found 
work  of  any  kind  except  at  a  coal  yard  and  stave  factory,  where  1 
worked  four  days  and  received  $2.50.  I  can’t  find  any  work  ;  my  money 
is  all  gone,  and  I  will  have  to  call  on  the  city  for  help.  I  am  a  Repub¬ 
lican,  and  1  came  here  expecting  to  vote  that  ticket.”  Yes,  sir,  he  made 
all  those  statements  to  me.  1  am  not  quite  sure  that  I  was  present  when 
he  made  this  statement. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  to  you  about  going  back  ?— A.  He  said  he 
would  like  to  go  back,  and  he  was  trying  to  collect  money  to  get  back 
the  tirst  day  1  saw  him. 

Q.  Was  he  a  man  of  family  ?— A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  he  had  a  wife  and 
several  children. 

Q.  Was  his  family  with  him?— A.  I  can’t  say  positively,  bat  I  think 
he  had  them. 

Q,  Did  you  talk  with  Needham  Green? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  talked  to  four 
or  five  together,  among  whom  those  names  I  mentioned,  and  I  don’t 
know  that  I  can  state  what  each  one  said  by  himself,  except  Peter  Dew  ; 
him  I  remember  particularly. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  Needham  Green  so  that  you  can  recollect  what  he 
said  ? — A.  I  thiuk  I  can. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  his  telling  you  that  the  reason  he  came  was 
that  Perry  aud  Williams  and  Evans  promised  him  work,  and  that  he 

25  ex 


386 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 

would  bo  paid  from  two  to  three  dollars  a  day,  and  that  houses  were  fur¬ 
nished  there  waiting  for  the  emigrants  ! — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  all  four 
said  so. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  Green  and  the  others,  whether  those  or  not  made 
particular  statements  that  Ferry  and  others  told  them  that  there  were  500 
carpenters  pushing  all  the  time  building  homes  for  emigrants  ? — A.  I 
think  one  of  them  made  that  statement— one  of  those  whose  names  I 
gave  you. 

Q.  How  did  they  say  they  found  things  out  there  agreeing  with  those 
promises! — A.  They  said  they  had  been  deceived  and  disappointed,  ami 
if  they  had  their  way  about  it  the  colored  men  in  North  Carolina  would 
know  the  facts  and  be  told  to  stay  at  home. 

Q.  Did  they  say  anything  about  going  out  there  to  vote  the  indepen¬ 
dent  Republican  ticket  ?— A.  Some  of  them  said  that;  I  asked  Peter 
Dews  about  it  and  lie  would  not  say  what  was  the  purpose,  but  he  ex - 
pected  to  vote  the  Republican  ticket.  He  thought  he  was  expected  to 
do  that,  and  that  all  of  them  were.  Some  of  them  said  they  were  told 
before  they  left  North  Carolina  that  they  were  expected  to  be  good  strong 
Republicans— valiant,  stout-hearted  Republicans. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  a  man  named  John  Taylor! — A.  Yes,  sir;  he 
was  in  the  party,  and  that  is  what  he  said. 

Q.  He  says  here,  “I  was  induced  to  leave  North  Carolina  by  SamT 
Perry  and  Williams,  who  are  Republicans.  They  told  me  I  would  be 
paid  $15  and  $3  per  day  with  borne  furnished  ;  firewood,  amPcow  and 
calf  free;  that  they  were  furnishing  clothing,  &c.,  ready;  that  land 
would  be  furnished  in  such  tracts  as  the  emigrants  wanted,  and  they 
would  have  from  six  to  seven  years  to  pay  it  in  ?— A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think 
all  four  said  so. 

Q.  That  these  lands  could  be  had  from  a  dollar  to  a  dollar  and  a  half 
per  acre? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q,  And  that  a  hundred  acres  could  be  bought  by  each  emigrant  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir  ;  They  also  stated  they  could  have  a  number  of  years  to  pay 
for  it  in. 

Q.  Did  any  of  them  speak  about  what  time  they  were  expected  to  go 
or  to  get  to  Indiana  ?— A.  1  don’t  think  I  heard  any  of  them  say  any¬ 
thing  about  that. 

Q.  What  did  they  say  women’s  wages  would  be  as  represented  to  them 
down  in  North  Carolina? — A.  They  said  it  was  represented  that  plenty 
of  work  could  be  had  for  them  as  house  servants,  and  that  they  could  get 
three  to  five  dollars  per  week. 

Q.  What  are  the  wages  of  good  servant  girls  in  Indiana? — A.  Well, 
sir,  one  of  our  best  servants  gets  from  two  and  a  half  to  three  and  a 
half  per  week. 

Q.  That  is  tor  choice  women  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  get  from  ten  to  fif¬ 
teen  dollars  per  mouth. 

Q.  You  have  seen  some  of  the  women  folks  who  came  with  these  em¬ 
igrants? — A.  Yes,  sir;  some  of  them. 

Q.  Are  they  such  as  would  be  employed  to  do  house  work  in  Indian¬ 
apolis?— A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not.  They  are  women  with  children,  and 
a  good  many  of  them  small  children  such  as  would  not  be  desired  in  such 
a  place. 

Q.  You  talked  with  Louis  Williams,  did  you  not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  is  the  same  man  whose  statement  was  read  here  by  Mr.  East? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  made  substantially  the  same  statements  to  you  ?— A.  Yes,  sir 
I  believe  I  saw  him  make  that  statement. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


387 


Q.  Do  you  remember  a  man  by  the  name  of  James  Wooten  ? — A.  I 
am  not  positive,  but  I  think  so.  I  think  he  was  one  of  the  parties  I 
talked  with. 

Q.  When  did  you  have  those  talks  with  those  parties  ? —  A.  I  saw 
them  in  the  street,  and  in  the  room  in  the  Sentinel  building,  and  in  the 
rooms  of  the  office  of  the  auditor  of  state. 

Q.  Were  they  all  manifesting  a  wish  to  go  home,  if  they  had  the 
means? — A.  That  is  what  I  understood  from  them. 

Q.  Were  they  all  men  of  family  ? — A.  I  think  most  of  them  were. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  a  man  by  tbe  name  of  Samuel  McKay?— A. 
No,  sir;  not  by  name. 

Q.  Did  any  of  them  complain  of  being  abused  in  North  Carolina  ? — A. 
No,  sir;  the  men  I  talked  with  said  thev  were  well  enough  oft  in  Nortn 
Carolina  and  making  a  living.  Some  of  them  said  they  had  disposed  of 
their  little  property  to  get  there  to  Indiana.  Some  of  them  had  sold  a 
little  ground,  and  a  cow  and  calf,  and  a  horse  and  wagou  to  get  the 
means,  and  had  spent  it  all  and  had  arrived  there  destitute. 

Q.  You  have  spent  all  your  life  in  Indiana,  Mr.  Dodd  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
since  1  was  a  boy. 

Q.  And  about  twenty-five  years  in  Iudianapolis?— A.  I  went  there  in 
185(5. 

Q,  Do  you  know  a  much  more  unpromising  place  where  a  man  could 
go  to  look  for  work  at  this  time?— A.  I  wouldn’t  advise  anybody  to  go 
there  at  this  time. 

Q.  White  or  black  or  any  color  ? — -A.  No,  sir  ;  I  think  for  two  or  three 
years  past  the  supply  for  every  kind  of  labor  has  been  ample.  The  rea¬ 
son  is  this,  that  Indianapolis  had  a  very  rapid  growth  up  to  1873.  It 
was  very  prosperous  and  buildings  and  improvements  were  going  on 
very  fast.  The  town  and  country  round  were  filled  up  with  laborers, 
and  we  had  inflation  in  prices,  but  that  suddenly  stopped  and  these 
men  are  there,  and  there  are  more  of  them  than  can  be  employed. 

Q.  Isn’t  there  much  suffering  among  the  poorer  classes,  and  wouldn’t 
many  of  them  die  from  want  unless  they  were  helped  by  public  charity  ? 

- — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  the  record  of  tbe  township  trustees  show  that  last  winter 
many  of  them  were  suffering  and  had  to  be  helped.  It  is  a  very  un¬ 
promising  place  just  now  for  poor  people.  Perhaps  it  is  a  little  better 
now  than  for  several  years  past,  and  I  hope  it  is.  •  . 

Q.  You  are  acquainted  with  the  leading  men  of  Indianapolis,  and 
through  the  State? — -A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  believe  I  am. 

Q.  Have  you  noticed  any  Republican  newspapers  discouraging  this 
immigration  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  I  don’t  think  I  have.  I  don’t  remember 
now  but  one  paper  ever  saying  anything  on  the  other  side  of  the  ques¬ 
tion,  and  that  is  The  Indianapolis  News. 

Q.  And  it  is  not  square  in  the  traces,  is  it  ?— A.  It  doesn’t  call  itself 
a  Republican  newspaper  ;  no,  sir. 

Q.  It  calls  itself  an  independent  newspaper? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is 
what  it  calls  itself. 

Q.  You  haven’t  noticed  any  other  paper  of  even  Republican  leaning 
that  has  discouraged  this  movement  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  1  think  they  have 
all  encouraged  it,  so  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  What  is  the  feeling  in  Indianapolis  as  to  whether  this  is  a  political 
movement  or  not  ?— A.  I  think  it  is  the  opinion  of  every  man  of  reason¬ 
able  intelligence  who  reads  the  papers,  that  it  is  a  Republican  move¬ 
ment  for  the  purpose  of  carrying  the  State  of  Indiana.  I  think  that  is 
public  opinion.  It  is  evidenced  by  the  fact  that  the  Republican  news- 


388 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


papers  approve  it,  and  men  who  talk  on  the  streets  chuckle  at  it,  while 
Democrats  swear  it. 

Q.  The  truth  is,  it  is  as  much  a  question  there  as  any  that  has  ever 
been  before  them? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  there  is  another  reason  far  above 
that,  and  that  is  that  you  can’t  account  for  it  on  any  other  ground. 
There  is  no  reason  why  they  should  go  there,  except  to  be  used  for  that 
purpose.  They  leave  a  climate  that  is  hospitable  and  congenial  to 
them, and  go  where  they  can’t  get  work,  and  where  they  are  unsuited  ; 
their  native  country  to  a  country  where  they  are  not  wanted,  where 
they  are  not  acclimated  ;  to  an  inhospitable  country  where  they  suffer 
and  die  ;  and  for  all  this  you  have  to  give  a  reason,  and  you  can’t  find  it 
anywhere  except  from  the  evidences  I  have  given  you  :  that  is,  the 
movement  is  for  political  purposes.  The  real  movers  may  be  concealed, 
but  they  pull  the  trigger  all  the  same.  That  is  my  judgment  of  it. 

Senator  Blair.  Have  you  ever  been  to  North  Carolina? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  any  colored  people  being  subjected  to 
hardships  and  abuses  there  in  the  last  fifteen  years,  or  in  the  South 
generally? — A.  I  don’t  know  as  I  have;  my  impression,  from  what  i 
have  seen  aud  heard  from  others,  is  that  they  are  doing  well. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  that  the  people  who  live  there  have  lost  some  of 
their  rights,  aud  think  they  can  do  better  elsewhere? — A.  No, sir;  none 
that  I  have  known  have  said  so. 

Q.  How  many  have  you  known  ? — A.  I  think  I  have  given  you  the 
names  of  all  of  them. 

Q.  Then  you  have  seen  those  only  who  have  been  scraped  together, 
gotten  up  by  the  Democratic  strikers  and  feuglemen  of  the  Sentinel 
office  and  State  House,  who  were  trying  to  get  these  statements  to  be 
sent  here  as  evidence  before  this  committee;  and  you  think  that  is  the 
sort  of  evidence  that  should  be  sent  here  to  prove  that  men  are  taken 
from  that  State  and  brought  to  Indiana  to  vote  the  Republican  ticket  ? 

(The  witness  hesitating  — — ) 

Mr.  Blair.  I  suppose  you  don’t  understand  the  question. 

The  Witness.  No,  sir  ;  1  didn’t  think  you  were  asking  a  question. 

Q.  Arou  were  summing  up  the  reasons,  or  rather  stating  that  there 
was  no  possible  reason  for  their  going  to  Indiana,  except  that  the  Re¬ 
publicans  there  wanted  them  to  vote  ?— A.  I  didn’t  say  there  was  no 
possible  reason  ;  I  said  it  was  the  only  reasonable  explanation  for  their 
going. 

Q.  You  are  aware  of  the  fact  that  a  great  many  colored  people  do 
give  reasons  for  leaving  North  Carolina  and  other  portions  of  the 
•South  that  are  different  from  that  one? — A.  I  have  not  seen  anv  from 
any  other  portion  of  the  South  except  North  Carolina. 

Q.  And  of  those  you  have  seen  none  except  those  who  have  given 
these  statements? — A.  I  have  never  seen  or  heard  of  anything  to  the 
contrary,  except  one  statement  which  I  saw  in  a  negro  paper  there  in 
Indianapolis. 

Q.  You  stated  that  these  statements  were  all  you  knew  anything 
about? — A.  Thev  were  all  the  written  statements. 

Q.  Then  upon  these  statements  of  these  men  you  make  up  your  opin¬ 
ion  as  to  the  reason  why  the  great  mass  of  them  leave  North  Carolina  ? — 
A.  That  is  the  reason  I  have  heard  from  all  I  have  talked  with  ;  the 
same  given,  for  instance,  by  the  man  who  has  just  left  this  chair  (Green 
Ruffin). 

Q.  Did  you  hear  him  make  these  statements  anywhere  but  here? — 
A.  No,  sir;  but  I  have  heard  the  same  things  from  those  in  Indiana. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  389 

Q.  Then  you  didn’t  make  lip  your  mind  here? — A.  No,  sir;  I  had  it 
pretty  well  made  up  when  I  left  Indiana. 

Q.  Wasn’t  your  mind  made  up  before  you  left  Iudiana  that  the  lle- 
pub  leans  were  making  them  leave  North  Carolina  and  going  there  in 
order  to  get  their  votes  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  so  still. 

Q.  And  you  say  these  statements  were  all  that  you  heard  from  the 
colored  men  as  to  why  they  were  induced  to  leave  North  Carolina  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  these  statements,  and  my  talks  with  some  eight  or  ten  of  them, 

Q.  Did  those  men,  any  of  them,  make  any  statements  of  the  hard¬ 
ships  they  endured  at  the  South  ? — A.  I  think  I  stated  that  all  of  them 
said  they  were  doing  well  and  were  treated  well  there. 

Q.  Have  you  stated  all  the  grounds  upon  which  you  base  your  opinions 
that  this  was  a  political  movement? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  I  have. 

Q.  And  it  is  based  on  the  statements  of  those  eight  or  ten  colored 
men  who  were  well  off  in  North  Carolina?— A.  Yes,  sir;  and  who  were 
induced  to  go  there  by  false  representations. 

Q.  If  all  the  rest,  leaving  out  these  ten,  were  to  give  a  different  reason 
you  would  change  your  opinion,  would  you  not?  If  they  stated  that 
they  came  North  because  they  could  educate  their  children  better,  and 
get  better  wages,  and  enjoy  their  civil  rights,  would  you  alter  your 
opinion? — A.  If  there  were  any  evidences  that  these  statements  were 
due  I  would;  but  if  the  men  were  paupers  and  beggars  there  in  Indiana, 
and  were  still  to  tell  me  they  had  plenty  of  work  when  I  knew  they  had 
not,  I  would  not  believe  them. 

Q.  You  would  believe  them,  though,  until  it  was  proven  that  they  lied  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  if  the  evidence  was  right  there  with  them. 

Q.  Suppose  the  large  mass  of  them  said  they  came  there  to  better 
educate  their  children,  and  to  regain  their  political  rights,  and  that  by 
the  system  of  labor  in  the  South,  under  the  landlord  and  tenant  act,  he 
was  deprived  of  the  fruits  of  his  labor,  and  expected  to  do  better  in  In¬ 
diana,  then  you  would  believe  him  !— A.  Yes,  sir.  Without  other  evi¬ 
dence  I  should  have  to  believe  him. 

Q.  If  the  colored  man  came  and  said  he  had  worked  here  in  the  South, 
.and  was  paid  in  orders  on  stores,  &e.,  and  was  not  enabled  to  enjoy  the 
fruits  of  his  labor,  wouldn’t  you  believe  him  I — -A.  Well,  sir,  you  put  a 
hard  hvpotheticai  case. 

Q.  Wouldn’t  you  believe  him  if  he  said  that?— A.  Well,  sir,  from  the 
evidence  that  1  havb  had  from  them,  I  think  I  would  believe  him  as 
quick  as  if  he  had  said  that  two  and  two  make  live. 

Q.  The  evidence  that  you  mean  that  you  have,  is  contained  in  these 
statements.  Now,  suppose  that  five  times  as  many  were  to  give  other 
reasons,  wouldn’t  you  believe  them  ? — A.  Not  unless  I  had  some  other 
proof  of  the  state  of  things  than  I  have  got  up  now. 

Q.  If  they  were  to  say  it  wasn’t  a  political  movement,  wouldn’t  you 
believe  what  they  did  say  ?— A.  It  would  require  some  other  proof  to 
make  ine  believe  it. 

Q.  1  take  it  that  your  feelings  and  political  prejudices,  are  pretty 
strong  on  this  subject?— A.  I  don’t  know  as  I  liavfc  any  prejudices  on 
the  subject.  I  think  that  1  could  demonstrate  that  my  opinion  is  a  fact, 
or  that  there  is  sufficient  reason  for  a  man  to  have  such  an  opinion. 

Q.  You  said,  I  believe,  that  there  wras  no  cause  for  it  except  a  politi¬ 
cal  one  ? — A.  I  say  there  has  been  none  furnished  thus  far. 

Q.  You  say,  in  effect,  that  you  would  not  believe  what  these  people 
say  as  to  their  treatment  down  there.  Now,  are  you  not  unreasonable 
in  taking  these  statements  of  eight  or  ten  persons  to  be  true,  because 
(they  agree  with  you,  and  refuse  to  take  the  statements  of  fifty  others 


390 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


who  say  different? — A.  I  don’t  know  anything  about  them.  I  have 
never  heard  those  statements. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  hear  the  man  who  was  sitting  there  a  few 
days  ago  state  that  he  was  a  slave  at  the  end  of  the  war,  and  now  had 
property  and  white  tenants  on  his  land,  &c.  ? — A,  Yes,  sir. 

Q  And  you  were  impressed  with  the  belief  that  in  a  State  that  would 
allow  a  man  to  do  that,  wasn’t  a  very  bad  place? — A.  Yes,  sir;  those 
are  among  the  things  which  go  to  make  my  opinion.  My  opinions  are 
made  up  from  what  I  see  and  hear  and  read. 

Q.  And  you  think  there  is  no  reasonable  cause  for  this  exodus,  unless 
it  is  a  political  one? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  think  any  man  can  give  a 
good  one  that  will  be  different. 

Q.  Yrou  think  so,  too,  because  the  entire  Republican  press  of  the  State,, 
while  they  don’t  approve  of  it,  doift  disapprove  of  it?— A.  Yes,  sir;, 
that’s  a  fact. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  Did  you  hear  a  colored  witness  who  testified  here,  and  who  said 
that  out  of  the  entire  population  of  his  county  he  only  knew  two  col¬ 
ored  men  who  owned  property  ¥ — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  the  colored  people  were  in  the  majority  in  his  county? — 
A.  I  think  I  heard  one  say  so. 

Q.  What  would  you  think  of  the  state  of  society  where  a  majority  of 
the  people  in  the  county — heads  of  families — in  fifteen  years  of  freedom 
were  not  able  to  accumulate  enough  property  to  acquire  a  homestead  t 
What  do  you  think  of  that  state  of  society  and  laws? — A.  That  is  an- 
o  her  hypothetical  case  of  yours.  I  would  have  to  know  the  facts  before 
expressing  an  opinion. 

Q.  If  that  is  a  fact  what  do  you  say  of  it?— -A.  I  would  say  that  those 
men  who  had  not  acquired  anything  were  not  a  very  thrifty  set  of  men. 

Q.  Suppose  the  laws  and  the  influence  of  the  dominant  class  are  such 
that  they  could  not  do  it?- — A.  J  could  not  suppose  that,  because  the 
A  ery  evidence  you  refer -me  to  is  different.  They  said  that  the  laws  are 
good  and  equal  as  to  whites  and  blacks;  that  they  had  voted  as  they 
believed. 

Q.  Yrou  don’t  seem  to  be  disposed  to  answer  my  question  except  on 
such  evidence  as  you  believe  yourself.  When  the  chairman  asks  you  a 
question  which  is  supposititious,  you  answer  it,  presuming  that  it  is  true?’ 
— A.  Mr.  Senator,  when  that  state  of  things  is  presented  to  me  as  a  fact,, 
then  I  can  answer  it. 

Q.  And  you  won’t  until  then  ?—  A.  I  don’t  know  what  I  might  do  if 
the  state  of  facts  were  presented  to  me  as  true.  The  broad  fact  is,  if  a 
man  reads  the  newspapers  in  Indiana  he  must  think  it  is  a  political 
movement,  and  intended  to  carry  the  State  of  Indiana  for  the  Republi¬ 
cans.  1  believe  if  1  were  allowed  to  make  a  speech  of  thirty  minutes,  I 
could  make  you  believe  it. 

Senator  Blair.  Well,  that  is  your  opinion,  but  it  is  not  the  public 
opinion  of  Indiana.  We  have  had  a  plenty  of  evidence  here  to  the  con¬ 
trary. 

The  Chairman.  As  Mr.  Blair  is  making  a  statement  about  the  public- 
opinion  ot  Indiana  and  the  evidence,  1  will  make  one  myself,  and  say  to 
you,  Mr.  Dodd,  that  there  is  plenty  of  evidence  here  that  what  you  say 
is  true. 

On  motion,  the  committee  adjourned  to  10.30  a.  m.  Wednesday* Feb* 
ruary  18,  1880. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


391 


SEVENTEENTH  DAY. 

TESTIMONY  OF  J.  B.  SYPHAX. 

J.  B.  Syphax  (colored)  was  sworn  and  examined,  as  follows: 

The  Witness.  Before  you  proceed,  Mr.  Chairman,  to  interrogate  me, 
it  may  he  proper  for  me  to  say  that  I  am  pleased  to  answer  any  question 
that  any  member  of  the  committee  may  ask,  or  to  go  on  in  a  general 
way  and  make  my  statement,  just  as  it  may  suit  the  committee. 

The  Chairman.  After  I  ask  you  a  few  questions  you  may  go  on  and 
make  your  statement.  Give  us  your  name. — Answer.  John  B.  Syphax. 

Q.  Where  do  you  reside?— -A.  At  Arlington  County,  Alexandria,  Va. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  resided  there  !— -A.  It  is  my  birth  place.  I  am 
living  now  right  where  I  was  born. 

Q.  What  is  your  age! — A.  Thirty-eight,  I  think. 

(J.  Mr.  Syphax,  the  reason  that  I  had  you  subpoenaed  was,  that  I  saw 
your  name  appended  to  a  printed  report  which  had  been  made  to  a  meet¬ 
ing  of  your  people  on  the  subject  of  the  exodus.  The  matter  attracted 
inv  attention,  and  I  had  you  subpoenaed  in  order  to  enable  you  to  give 
the  committee  your  views  upon  that  subject !— -A.  Well,  Mr.  Chairman, 
in  so  far  as  any  information  that  I  may  have  touching  this  matter  is  con¬ 
cerned,  it  is  rather  of  a  peculiar  character,  and  I  suppose  it  will  be  nec¬ 
essary  for  me  to  make  some  reference  here  just  at  this  point,  i  have 
some  papers  in  my  pocket  to  which  I  can  refer,  I  suppose,  as  the  com¬ 
mittee  desires  information. 

Q.  You  may  state,  in  passing,  what  your  politics  are. —  A.  Mr.  Chair¬ 
man,  I  have  never  been  a  slave  to  any  party,  but  I  am  known  in  the 
State  of  Virginia  as  affiliating  with  the  Republican  party.  I  hold  the 
local  office  of  justice  of  the  peace,  elected  on  a  Republican  ticket. 

Now,  sir,  in  the  beginning  of  this  matter,  so  far  as  the  immediate 
cause  of  the  movement  is  concerned,  as  I  said  yesterday,  and  as  I  very 
significantly  indicated,  that  I  would  hold  the  very  distinguished  mem¬ 
ber  of  your  committee  and  also  of  the  Senate  of  the  United  States,  Mr. 
Windom,  responsible  for  it.  I  know  nothing  concerning  the  origin  or 
causes  of  the  exodus;  yet  the  resolution  and  speech  made  in  the  Senate 
by  Mr.  Windom,  of  Minnesota.  I  think  I  will  be  able  to  state  to  the 
committee  that  my  judgment  in  that  particular  is  correct. 

Now,  when  this  resolution  was  first  offered,  or  before  it  was  offered  in 
the  Senate,  there  is  a  man  there  who  sweeps  the  floor  of  the  American 
Senate,  and  one  or  two  other  colored  men  in  this  city,  who  were  re¬ 
quested  by  the  Senator  from  Minnesota  to  come  to  him  and  request  that 
he  should  originate  something  of  this  character  touching  the  status  of 
the  colored  people  in  the  South,  for  what  purpose  I  have  been  unable 
to  learn.  After  reading  his  resolution,  after  that,  in  some  of  the  news¬ 
papers  here,  and  regarding  the  matter  as  being  quite  a  startling  and 
extraordinary  position  to  be  assumed  or  taken  by  either  a  Republican 
or  Democratic  Senator,  I  came  to  the  Capitol,  and  went  into  the  docu¬ 
ment  room  of  the  Senate  and  requested  a  copy  of  that  resolution.  While 
there  a  gentleman  came  in  who  was  an  employe  in  the  Senate — I  think 
lie  occupied  the  position  of  doorkeeper.  I  think  he  comes  from  tin*/ 
State  of  Rhode  Island,  and  is  a  colored  man,  and  I  think  his  name  is 
Gaskins.  He  thought,  like  other  colored  men  who  had  been  gotten  in 
to  express  an  enthusiasm  for  the  movement,  and  he  made  some  state¬ 
ments  to  me. 

I  desire  to  be  strictly  truthful,  and  let  me  say  that  I  speak  the  truth 
because  I  have  some  feeling  in  this  matter,  for  it  goes  beyond  party  feel- 


392 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


in",  and  so  far  as  ray  testimony  is  concerned  it  will  not  be  for  the  pur 
pose  of  giving  any  particular  consolation  to  either  the  Democratic  or 
Republican  party.  1  think  my  head  is  pretty  clear  as  to  that.  While 
reading  this  resolution  in  the  presence  of  an  ex-member  of  the  legisla¬ 
ture,  a  man  who  served  in  that  body  with  myself,  this  man  Gaskins 
came  up  and  said  to  me  (of  course  I  suppose  he  was  an  ignorant  man, 
and  knew  nothing  of  the  matter  at  all),  but  he  said  to  me,  u  Well,  I  hope 
you  heartily  endorse  this  movement,  because  Senator  Windom  has  said 
that  when  he  makes  his  speech  in  the  Senate  on  this  question  he  desires 
to  hold  in  his  hand  letters,  communications,  from  500  colored  representa¬ 
tive  men.’7  That  was  all  about  that  he  said  to  me. 

But  to  show  you  that  I  have  acted  perfectly  square  and  honest,  I 
went  directly  to  the  door  of  the  Senate  and  met  the  Senator  from  Min- 
nesota.  I  inquired  of  him  when  he  would  make  his  speech  on  this  ques¬ 
tion,  and  he  said  to  me  Friday,  perhaps,  if  he  could  prepare  his  notes 
and  get  ready.  I  don’t  think  the  speech  was  made  on  Friday,  but  I 
was  in  the  gallery  and  heard  it,  and  I  went  at  once  to  him,  and  before 
he  made  his  speeds  here  in  Washington  the  past  January,  the  29th  of 
January,  1879,  I  think  it  was,  I  addressed  the  Senator  a  letter  on  my 
own  responsibility,  and  as  one  identified  with  this  people,  whose  inter¬ 
ests  were  called  in  question,  representing  myself  and  nobody  else,  and 
I  have  that  letter  here  over  my  signature. 

Q.  Do  you  desire  to  make  it  a  part  of  your  testimony  %  If  so,  just 
read  it  so  the  reporter  can  take  it.— -A.  They  have  it  headed,  u  Moving 
the  blacks  about — -A  colored  Virginian  legislator  who  does  not  agree 
with  Senator  Windom— Mr.  Syphax  as  a  leading  colored  man.77 

I  put  this  in  the  post  office  addressed  to  the  distinguished  member 
from  Minnesota.  This  was  the  beginning  of  the  matter,  so  far  as  I  know 
it,  and  as  I  said  before,  I  am  at  the  disposal  of  the  committee  to  answer 
any  questions,  or  if  they  desire  me  to  go  on  and  make  any  further  state¬ 
ment. 

The  Chairman.  Go  on  Mr.  Syphax  —A.  After  this,  there  was  much 
confusion  over  the  subject,  and  having  thus  committed  myself  in  this 
way,  I  had  but  one  object  in  view,  and  that  was  to  defeat  the  move¬ 
ment.  The  letter  was  published  in  North  Carolina,  there  in  the  city  of 
Raleigh,  last  August.  After  that  I  thought  it  proper  that  we  should 
have  a  meeting  in  the  city  here,  and  have  an  investigation  here  at  the 
very  capital.  I  made  some  such  proposition,  and  we  had  the  meeting, 
and  I  offered  a  resolution,  which  is  here  in  this  newspaper,  with  this 
report  in  it.  I  will  only  read  it  for  the  committee. 

(The  witness  read  the  resolution.) 

1  made  the  same  charges  in  this  report,  and  I  am  ready  now  to  do  the 
best  I  can  to  sustain  the  assertions  I  have  made. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  Have  you  told  us  all  you  know  about  it?— A.  I  may  know  some¬ 
thing  else.  The  better  way  is  to  interrogate  me.  I  am  in  your  hands. 

Q.  I  want  you  to  tell  all  you  know.  I  want  you  to  tell  it  right  out 
in  your  own  wav.— A.  I  don7t  know  that  1  can  suit  you  in  that  way. 

Q.  I  ask  you  if  you  know  anything  more  about  this  movement  ?— A. 
That  question  isn’t  the  one  to  ask  me. 

Q.  1  want  to  know  if  you  know  anything  more  about  it  ?— A.  I  don’t 
know  that  I  have  anything  more  to  say. 

Q.  Are  you  keeping  back  anything  that  you  do  know?— A.  I  don’t 
know  as  I  am.  When  the  chairman  tells  me  that  I  am  in  the  hands  of 
gentlemen  to  be  interrogated,  I  take  it  that  that  is  the  proper  course  of 
the  examination. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


303 


Q.  Well,  I  am  interrogating  you  now.  Do  you  know  any  more  about 
this  matter  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Tell  it. — A.  I  will.  After  this  matter  was  referred  to,  there  were 
a  number  of  gentlemen,  who  were  on  the  very  same  line,  who  came  up 
to  interview  the  Senator  from  Minnesota — a  Mr.  Greener,  Mr.  Du  Foe, 
and  several  other  gentlemen.  They  had  an  interview  with  him,  and 
it’s  all  quoted  here  in  my  report.  They  carried  out  the  programme  on 
the  line  already  indicated.  Tt  was  such  a  character  of  meeting  as  would 
justify  the  Senator  from  Minnesota  in  going  before  the  country  and 
stating  the  position  of  the  colored  men  as  indorsing  this  movement, 
&c. 

Q.  Is  that  all  you  know  about  it  ?— A.  I  guess  that  is  all. 

Q.  Have  they  any  lunatic  asylums  in  Virginia  to  which  colored  peo¬ 
ple  are  admitted? — A.  In  the  State  of  Virginia,  Senator  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.- — A.  We  have  two  there,  one  for  colored  people  and  one 
for  white  people,  and  when  we  find  people  there  who  don’t  understand 
themselves  we  send  them  to  one  or  the  other. 

Q,  How  did  you  escape? — A.  If  the  Senator  wants  to  go  to  one  of 
them,  and  will  go  to  my  county,  we  will  send  him. 

Q.  How  did  you  escape  from  one  ? — A.  They  released  me  on  the  sup¬ 
position  that  I  would  interview  you,  and  get  you  to  go  there. 

Q.  And  you  came  here  to  interview  Mr.  Voorhees  and  other  members 
of  the  committee? — A.  No,  sir;  not  particularly. 

Q.  But  you  have  sworn  that  you  were  released? — A.  Of  course  the 
records  will  show  what  I  said. 

Q.  Certain  ? — A.  If  the  Senator  wants  to  make  anything  out  of  me  in 
that  way,  or  begin  his  bulldozing,  he  can  do  so. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  I  didn’t  understand  you,  Mr.  Syphax,  to  swear  that  you  were  re¬ 
leased  from  a  lunatic  asylum,  but  that  you  made  that  statement  in  the 
same  spirit  of  badinage  that  the  Senator  from  Minnesota  was  using  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  not,  in  point  of  fact,  ever  released  from  a  lunetic  asy¬ 
lum  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  a  justice  of  the  peace,  elected  by  the  Republican  party  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  I  think  that  yon  are  about  the  best  one  of  that 
party  that  I  ever  saw. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  You  say  you  wrote  that  letter  to  me? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  didn’t  get  any  answer  to  it  ? — A.  No,  sir.  Any  more  ques- 
tons? 

Senator  Windom.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  think  you  know  enough  of  this 
subject  to  justify  my  asking  you  anything. 

The  Witness.  All  right,  sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  JOSEPH  ADAMS. 

JosEPn  Adams  (colored)  sworn  and  examined,  as  follows: 
By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  What  is  your  name? — Answer.  Joseph  Adams. 
Q.  Where  do  you  live? — A.  In  Goldsborough. 

Q.  North  Carolina  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


394 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  How  long  have  you  been  away  from  there  f — A.  Three  weeks. 

Q.  Wliat  are  you  doing  up  here? — A.  I  came  up  here  the  time  the 
emigrants  was  going  up  West,  and  I  stopped  here. 

Q.  What  made  you  stop  here? — A.  1  heard  there  was  no  getting  along 
for  a  poor  man  up  West,  and  I  stopped.  .  I  have  no  money  to  back  me 
up,  and  they  said  a  poor  man  couldn’t  get  along  there,  so  I  stopped  here. 

Q.  Who  told  you  that  a  poor  man  couldn’t  get  along  there? — A.  X 
can’t  remember,  but  he  was  a  man  who  was  going  along  back  home. 

Q.  He  had  been  out  to  Indiana  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  said  there  was  no  place  for  you  out  there? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  don’t  you  go  back  to  .North  Carolina  ? — A.  I  had  run  through 
all  1  had,  and  I  staid  here. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  work  since  you  have  been  here? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
two  days  I  worked  at  Mr.  Smith’s  mill. 

Q.  Are  you  going  back  when  you  can  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  Sam  Perry  since  you  have  been  here? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  about  how  they  were  getting  along  out  there  ? — 
A.  He  said  he  went  through  here  about  two  or  three  weeks  ago,  and 
that  he  went  to  the  barracks  out  there,  where  they  were  crammed  in  as 
thick  as  they  could  be  with  colored  people  from  the  South.  He  said  he 
was  going  there;  that  he  went  to  stay  all  night ;  that  there  were  two  or 
three  who  died  when  he  was  in  there,  and  he  wouldn’t  stay. 

Q.  What  did  Sam  I^erry  tell  you  down  in  North  Carolina  ? — A.  I  didn’t 
hear  Sam  Perry  speak. 

Q.  What  did  Talor  Evans  say? — A.  ne  said  any  colored  man,  if  he 
tried  to  got  along,  could  make  two  or  three  dollars  a  day  out  there,  and 
furthermore  said  that  the  colored  and  white  people  were  about  on  an 
equality — all  sociated  together. 

Q.  He  said  they  all  sociated  together? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  heard  him 
speak  that. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  about  the  chance  a  colored  man  had  to  get 
married  with  a  white  woman  ? — A.  He  said  there  was  no  difference  out 
there;  that  if  a  man  was  any  account,  and  any  kind  of  looking  colored 
man,  he  could  get  married  with  one  kind  as  well  as  the  other. 

Q.  Are  you  a  single  man  ? — A.  I  am  a  married  man  with  four  children. 

Q.  Are  they  at  home  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  They  are  at  Goldsborough.  My 
wife  has  been  cooking  for  John  Powers  for  four  or  live  years. 

Q.  Where  is  this  man  Evans? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir;  I  haven’t  seen 
him  since  about  a  month  ago;  he  came  along  herewith  a  lot  of  emi¬ 
grants  going  up  West.  He  went  on  through,  but  I  hear  he  has  been 
here  since. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  of  him  ? — A.  I  don’t  think  much  of  him  at  all. 

Q.  You  don’t  believe  what  he  told  you  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  This  is  a  committee  appointed  under  a  resolution  of  the  Senate  to 
investigate  the  causes  of  the  exodus.  Won’t  you  tell  us  what  you  know 
about  the  causes  of  the  exodus? — A.  I  have  told  you  as  near  as  I  have 
knowed  them. 

Q.  What  is  the  reason  that  you  came  from  North  Carolina?  Was  it 
on  account  of  all  these  things  that  you  have  stated  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  thought,  among  other  things,  if  you  went  to  Indiana,  a  black 
man  could  marry  a  white  woman  the  same  as  if  she  was  black  ? — A.  I 
didn’t  havb  anything  to  do  with  that,  because  I  was  a  married  man.  X 
started  there  to  make  a  better  living. 

Q.  Then  that  privilege  of  marrying  didn’t  influence  you  ? — A.  No,  sir ; 
it  didn’t. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


395 


Q.  Then  T  want  to  get  at  the  exact  reason  why  yon  left  ? — A.  The 
reason  I  left  North  Carolina  was  because  I  thought  1  could  make  a  better 
living  there  than  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  That  was  iu  Indiana? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  been  there? — A.  No,  sir;  but  I  have  heard  from  there. 

Q.  You  have  heard  stories  both  ways,  haven’t  you? — A.  I  can  only 
testify  to  what  I  heard  ;  I  know  I  can  get  along  better  in  North  Carolina 
than  the  way  I  hear  from  Indiana. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that  that  which  you  hear  is  true? — A.  Because 
1  have  seen  people  who  came  from  there. 

Q.  Haven’t  you  seen  anybody  who  told  you  you  could  get  along  better 
there  ? — Yes,  sir  ;  but  they  live  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  Perry  and  Williams  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  lived  in 
Noi  th  Carolina. 

Q.  They  have  been  there  some  time,  haven’t  they? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but 
they  haven’t  been  there  to  work. 

Q.  Well,  pretty  much  all  the  colored  people  who  have  been  to  Indiana 
stay  there? — A.  Gone  where? 

Q.  To  Indiana. — A.  lrou  mean  who  went  from  North  Carolina  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir. — A.  I  have  seen  one  or  two  who  have  gone  back. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  that  most  of  the  colored  people — industrious,  sen¬ 
sible,  economical  colored  people — who  are  there,  are  doing  well  and  pro¬ 
pose  to  stay  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  nothing,  except  what  I  hear. 

Q.  You  came  here  and  stopped  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  everybody  who  has  gone  out  there  starving?  Is  that  what  you 
hear  ? — A.  The  way  they  talk  they  are  starving  pretty  bad  up  there. 
That  is  the  reason  I  stopped  here. 

Q.  You  have  been  in  Washington  ever  since? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  this  is  a  bad  place  for  colored  people,  too? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
could  make  a  living  if  I  could  get  the  work  and  they  would  pay  me. 

Q.  Don’t  you  believe  if  you  were  iu  Indiana,  and  disposed  to  work, 
you  could  get  all  the  work  you  wanted  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  anything  about 
that. 

Q.  If  you  didn’t  know  how  it  is,  and  don’t  know  that  the  stories  you 
hear  are  true,  why  is  it  that  you  say  they  are  false,  and  that  the  people 
are  not  doing  well  out  there? — A.  Because  the  people  who  come  from 
Indiana  say  they  have  not  done  a  lick  of  work  since  they  have  been 
there,  and  that  some  are  there  who  can’t  get  away. 

Q.  That  is  what  you  hear? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  what  these  men  say 
who  came  from  up  there. 

Q.  How  many  have  you  heard  say  so? — A.  Two  or  three. 

Q,  You  have  seen  or  heard  from  very  few  of  them  ? — A.  I  have  heard 
mighty  smart  from  up  there. 

Q.  Who  have  you  been  with  and  who  have  you  talked  to  since  you 
have  been  here? — A.  I  haven’t  associated  with  anybody  much.  I  have 
been  with  Perry  two  or  three  days,  walking  about  some. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  be  here  to  testify  before  this  committee? — 
A.  I  was  up  here  by  the  stairs  in  the  Senate  when  I  was  subpoenaed. 

Q.  Was  that  when  we  had  a  hearing  in  Mr.  Yoorhees’s  room  ? — A. 
No,  sir;  1  don’t  know  anything  about  that. 

Q.  How  long  has  it  been  since  you  were  summoned  ? — A.  To  day. 

Q.  When  are  you  going  back  to  North  Carolina? — A.  Some  time  next 
week. 

Q.  Have  you  got  the  means  to  go  on  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  amount  will  it  take  ? — A.  Thirteen  dollars  and  fifty  cents. 


396 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Where  did  you  get  it  ! —  A.  I  had  the  money  when  I  came  here. 
Do  you  waut  me  to  tell  how  much  1  had  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir. — A.  Well,  I  don’t  think  it  is  right  to  do  that. 

Q.  You  had  money  enough  to  go  back  on  all  the  time  ! — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  got  enough  now  ! — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  have  you  got  ! — A.  Eight  or  nine  dollars. 

Q.  Have  you  had  it  all  the  time! — A.  No,  sir;  not  always. 

Q.  How  are  you  going  to  get  the  rest  of  the  money  to  get  home  with  ! 
—  A.  Work  for  it. 

Q.  Who  for! — A.  For  anybody. 

Q.  Who  for  particularly  ! — A.  I  don’t  know  yet. 

Q.  You  know  yo,u  are  going  to  work  for  it! — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  am  going 
to  work  for  Mr.  Smith,  down  at  the  mill. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  get  ! — A.  Ninety  cents  a  day. 

Q.  From  now  until  next  week,  how  much  can  you  earn! — A.  I  don’t 
know. 

Q.  What  time  are  you  going  to  start  home  ! — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

Q.  Has  anybody  promised  you  the  means  to  go  back  on  ! — A.  No,  sir  ; 
nobody  has  promised  me  anything.  I  may  stay  here  two  or  three  weeks, 
but  I  am  going  back  to  my  wife  and  children. 

Q.  Well,  in  North  Carolina,  did  you  make  a  living! — A.  Y^es,  sir;  I 
worked  for  Mr.  Daws  eight  years,  and  for  Mr.  Galloway.  I  can  tell  you 
all  that  I  worked  for. 

Q.  Do  you  own  any  lands! — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  worked  hard  all  the  time  ! — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  work  for  my 
living. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  work  ! — A.  Nearly  all  the  time. 

Q.  On  an  average  of  three-fourths  of  the  time! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  get !  Did  you  work  all  the  day  ! — A.  Some¬ 
times. 

Q.  Howr  much  did  you  get  by  the  day  ! — A.  From  75  cents  to  GO  cents. 

Q.  Did  you  board  yourself — take  care  of  yourself  out  of  that! — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  work  some  by  the  month  ! — A.  Yes,  sir;  for  eight  years. 

Q.  What  did  you  get  then  ! — A.  The  first  year  I  got  $12  and  from 
that  on  down  to  $10  per  month. 

Q.  Then  for  eight  years  you  got  from  $12  to  $10  per  month. — A. 
Yres,  sir. 

Q.  How  were  you  paid  !  In  money  or  in  goods  out  of  the  store  ! — A. 
There  was  no  store  there. 

Q.  How  were  you  paid  ! — A.  In  money. 

Q.  Yrou  say  there  are  no  stores  about  there! — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  there  are 
in  Goldsborough,  but  I  was  three  miles  from  town.  I  worked  eight  years 
from  1871. 

Q.  Did  you  work  all  the  year  during  those  eight  years  ! — A.  Yes,  sir; 
the  whole  year  round. 

Q.  And  3mu  had  $10  to  $12  dollars  per  month  all  the  year  round  ! — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  all  you  had  to  support  your  family  with  ! — A.  No,  sir; 
they  allowed  me  half  of  every  other  Saturday,  and  a  horse  and  plow  to 
work  a  little  land  they  let  me  have,  and  I  raised  a  little  cotton  and  a 
little  corn  on  my  patch. 

Q.  That  would  be  a  day  you  were  allowed  in  each  month  ! — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  a  house  to  live  in  ! — A.  Of  course  they  furnished  me 
a  house. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


397 


Q.  Was  there  a  school  near  by  ? — A.  Yes  sir. 

Q.  How  much  of  the  time  each  year  ? — A.  1  think  it  is  a  three  or  four 
months’  session. 

Q.  This  wasn’t  a  mixed  school,  was  it,  but  a  colored  school  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  it  was  a  colored  school. 

Q.  Had  you  during  these  six  years  been  able  to  save  any  money  ? — 
A.  If  1  had  taken  care  of  it  I  could  have  done  so. 

Q.  If  you  had  done  your  best,  how  much  could  you  have  saved? — A. 
From  the  time  the  vegetables  came  off,  I  could  have  saved  per  mouth 
three  or  four  dollars. 

Q.  You  didu’t  save  any? — A.  No,  sir;  because  I  run  through  it. 

Q.  You  spent  all  this  money,  then  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  .one  thing  with  the 
colored  people  is  that  they  buy  every  kind  of  something  to  eat. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  wasting  money  to  buy  something  to  eat  ? — A.  I 
don’t  think  the  colored  people  ought  to  buy  everything  that  they  have 
got  money  to  buy  of,  but  put  some  of  it  away. 

Q.  How  did  you  spend  yours? — A.  Buying  something  to  eat. 

Q.  What  did  you  buy  to  eat  ? — A.  I  couldn’t  tell  that. 

Q.  And  you  think  it  is  wrong  to  spend  money  to  buy  something  to  eat 
with  ? — A.  I  could  have  got  along  with  out  it. 

Q.  You  would  have  gotten  on  comfortably  without  spending  money? 
— A.  Yres,  sir;  I  could  have  lived  on  meat  and  bread  as  well  as  on  the 
line  victuals  that  I  had. 

Q.  What  were  the  line  victuals  that  you  bought? — A.  Well,  chickens 
and  eggs  and  butter,  and  things  of  that  kind. 

Q.  And  you  think  it  is  out  of  the  way  for  a  laboring  man  to  have 
them  ? — A.  They  might  had  them  sometimes,  but  not  as  a  general 
thing. 

Q.  How  many  chickens  a  month  would  you  buy? — A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  How  much  eggs  and  butter? — A.  I  couldn’t  tell,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  would  be  unusual  to  have  them  in  Indiana  ? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  that  they  are  common  food  for  laboring  people  out 
there? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  know  anything  about  that. 


TESTIMONY  OF  R.  C.  BADGER. 

R.  C.  Badger  was  sworn  and  examined  as  follows: 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Question.  Mr.  Badger,  you  have  been  summoned  before  the  Exodus 
Committee  to  give  us  the  causes  of  the  exodus  of  the  colored  people 
from  North  Carolina,  and,  as  preliminary  to  that,  I  will  ask  you  to  state 
what  is  the  condition  of  the  colored  people  in  regard  to  their  political 
rights,  and  otherwise.  What  is  your  profession  ? — Answer.  I  am  a  lawyer. 

Q.  What  are  your  politics? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  belong  to  the  honest- 
money  branch  of  the  Republican  party.  I  believe  in  a  government 
capable  of  keeping  peace  between  the  States,  and  in  the  States,  and 
protecting  people  in  the  States,  and  a  man  at  the  head  of  the  govern¬ 
ment  who  can  carry  these  things  out. 

Q.  What  positions  have  you  held  in  North  Carolina? — A.  I  was  twice 
in  the  general  assembly,  and  last  year  was  in  the  constitutional  conven¬ 
tion  of  the  State.  I  was  justice  of  the  peace,  and  recorder  of  deeds; 
I  have  been  prosecuting  attorney  in  the  county  several  terms,  and  have 


398 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


been  United  States  district  attorney  for  the  western  district  of  North 
Carolina,  but  finding  myself  in  discord  with  the  present  administration, 
I  resigned  last  year. 

Q.  Will  you  please  state  now  the  condition  of  the  colored  people  in 
North  Carolina?— A.  As  you  know,  Senator,  1  am  intimately  wrapped 
up  in  their  prospects.  I  was  opposed  to  slavery.  I  have  lived  with 
them  all  my  life,  and  studied  their  character.  They  are  slowly  develop¬ 
ing  in  North  Carolina  in  my  section  of  the  State.  I  am  from  the  city 
of  Raleigh.  They  are  beginning  to  accumulate  property,  and  becoming 
self-reliant.  They  were  not  so  until  very  lately.  They  were  not  self- 
reliant,  but  they  are  slowly  and  gradually  improving.  If  the  committee 
will  reflect  that  for  two  hundred  and  fifty  years,  taken  from  a  barbarous 
country,  and  kept  in  slavery,  and  now  allowed  to  own  property,  they 
will  understand  the  condition  of  the  negro;  but  there  is  a  slow  and 
gradual  development  in  my  section  of  the  State.  When  the  war  ended 
both  the  blacks  and  whites  went  together,  and  all  utterly  bankrupted 
as  to  property.  Those  who  cultivated  the  soil  had  to  go  into  the  con¬ 
trol  of  men  who  made  advances,  and  they  made  their  advances  at  from 
.15  to  25  per  cent,  on  the  price  of  the  things  advanced.  .Extreme  pov¬ 
erty  has  by  degrees  brought  them  out,  and,  in  my  section,  they  are  get¬ 
ting  along  reasonably  well.  They  don’t  get  exact  justice  in  the  courts. 
They  are  easily  convicted  of  larceny,  and,  frequently,  in  my  judgment, 
on  insufficient  testimony.  I  know  some  of  our  judges,  and  most  of 
them  have  set  aside  verdicts  that  were  wrong,  and  our  supreme  court 
never  fails  to  do  them  justice.  There  was  a  time  in  1871  up  to  about 
two  years  and  a  half  ago,  that  they  were  treated  with  great  barbarity, 
during  the  time  of  the  ku-klux,  but  the  situation  and  present  relations  be¬ 
tween  the  races  1  think  quite  as  good  as  could  be  expected  among  a  people 
divided  so  by  color.  There  is  that  distinction  which  I  think  would  pre¬ 
vail  against  them  anywhere,  where  they  would  go  in  large  numbers. 
I  took  occasion  to  consult  the  colored  solicitor  of  our  circuit  after  I  re¬ 
ceived  the  telegram  of  your  sergeant  at-arms,  and  he  goes  further,  and 
says  that  he  sees  no  distinction  made  between  them  on  account  of  their 
color  at  all.  1  do.  The  old  loco-tocos  (that  is  what  I  call  them,  though 
some  people  call  them  bourbons) — the  old  loco  focos  down  there  cheated 
them  out  of  their  votes,  but  I  don’t  think  that  has  had  anything  to  do 
with  the  exodus. 

One  distinguished  member  of  your  committee  got  2,700  more  votes 
down  there  were  voters  in  his  party  in  the  JState. 

Q.  Do  you  think,  Mr.  Badger,  there  is  any  necessity  for  that  exodus 
from  our  JState  to  Indiana? — A.  I  don’t  think  there  is  any  necessity  for 
the  exodus  from  our  State  to  Indiana.  I  state  what  I  believe  to  be  a 
fact,  that  these  colored  people  will  be  unable  to  compete  with  the  white 
laborers  out  there.  Like  most  of  the  men  of  his  kind,  the  negro  is 
bound  to  sing  and  have  a  good  time,  aud  if  he  was  cutting  grass  with 
one  of  those  mowers  that  are  used  in  Indiana,  he  would  either  fall 
asleep  ou  the  seat,  or  run  his  knife  against  a  rock,  if  there  was  one  in 
the  field.  I  think  they  are  going  out  there  to  meet  starvation. 

Q.  From  what  you  know,  do  you  think  they  would  improve  their  so¬ 
cial  and  political  rights  by  going  there? — xV.  I  have  never  been  in  In¬ 
diana.  1  have  been  in  Ohio.  I  think  the  humanitarians  out  there 
would  treat  them  better  probably.  They  have  almshouses  out  there, 
but  I  think  in  the  southern  part  of  Indiana  they  would  not  get  along 
so  well. 

Q.  Will  you  state  what  has  been  done  in  North'Carolina — what  is  be¬ 
ing  done  towards  educating  the  colored  people,  giving  them  all  the 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


399 


benefits  of  participation  in  the  government? — A.  Except  in  the  matter 
of  university  education  they  have  the  same  rights  as  the  whites.  There 
has  been  no  provision  made  for  university  education  of  the  blacks. 
They  are  learning  faster  than  the  whites,  displaying  a  greater  desire  to 
learn,  and  attend  the  public  schools  more  regularly.  I  think  the  Demo¬ 
cratic  party  have  violated  the  constitution  by  not  establishing  a  uni¬ 
versity  for  them.  They  have  institutions  there  of  that  character,  es¬ 
tablished  by  northern  charity,  like  the  Shaw  University,  and  they  are 
turning  out  preachers  and  other  well  educated  colored  men. 

Q.  They  have  them,  then,  but  not  at  the  expense  of  the  State  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir  ;  they  have  them,  as  I  stated,  by  public  charity,  but  they  have 
a  deaf  and  dumb  asylum,  a  normal  school,  and  all  that,  from  the  State. 
I  think  I  could  say  safely  that  in  twenty-five  or  thirty  years  there  will 
not  be  one  person  of  color  in  all  of  North  Carolina  who  can’t  read  and 
write.  They  have  shown  a  desire  for  knowledge  that  is  remarkable. 
They  are  all  of  them  going  to  school  who  can  get  there.  They  are  not 
the  best  quality  of  schools  that  we  have,  but  still  they  are  attending 
them  promptly. 

Q.  Is  it  or  is  it  not  your  opinion  that  this  exodus  is  caused  by  any 
political  persecutions  or  denial  of  their  privileges  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  don’t 
think  so.  I  think  it  is  the  result  of  false  hopes  held  out  by  the  agents 
who  have  gone  among  them. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  a  good  or  bad  thing  for  the  race  ? — A.  I  think  it  is 
a  bad  thing.  Of  course  with  this  qualification.  I  don’t  know  anything 
about  Indiana.  There  may  be  people  there  who  can  use  them,  but  my  own 
judgment  is  that  they  can’t  compete  with  northern  labor.  They  can  live 
iu  central  or  eastern  North  Carolina  on  two  days’  labor  in  the  week.  A 
man  like  the  one  who  preceded  me  can  do  that  easily.  They  live  on  a 
peck  of  meal,  and  four  and  a  half  pounds  of  Cincinnati  bacon,  cooked 
with  collards,  which  is  a  species  of  brassica  (I  believe  that  is  the  bo- 
tannical  name  for  it),  which  grows  up  and  runs  to  what  we  call  collards. 

Q.  You  mean  that  we  can  raise  cabbages  there,  but  they  run  to  col¬ 
lards  f — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Senator  Vance.  That  is  an  unorganized  cabbage  without  a  head  ? 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  Amu  spoke  about  the  outrages  during  the  Kuklux  days.  What 
were  they  ? — A.  They  were  awful  outrages  according  to  all  reports.  I 
was  employed  by  the  governor  of  North  Carolina,  ami  entered  into  an 
investigation  of  those  matters  long  before  the  people  of  our  State  be¬ 
lieved  that  such  things  existed — such  things  as  you  saw  in  the  kuklux 
reports  which  have  been  printed  by  Congress. 

Q.  Give  us  a  specimen  of  one  of  them  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  they  hung 
Wyatt,  outlaw,  who  was  a  man  of  sufficient  influence  to  be  elected  mayor 
of  Alamance.  I  don’t  think  they  intended  to  hang  him,  but  to  whip 
him  for  impudence;  but  I  think  they  found  them  out,  and  Judge  Bond 
made  it  pretty  hot  for  them.  They  took  Stephens,  and  garroted  him  in 
a  room  under  the  court-house. 

Q.  What  was  that  done  for  ? — A.  Part  of  it  was  said  to  be  done  for 
p<  litical  reasons,  and  a  part  of  it  for  the  regulation  of  society. 

Q.  What  did  they  mean  by  them  ? — A.  Why,  when  a  negro  got  too 
big  for  his  pants  they  dressed  him  down  a  little.  1  will  give  you  an  in¬ 
stance.  There  was  one  man  from  over  in  a  corner  of  Alamance;  they 
took  him  out  and  said  he  was  not  polite  enough  to  the  ladies  he  met  on 
the  streets  ;  that  he  must  take  off  his  hat  when  he  met  them,  and  they 
gave  him  one  hundred  to  enforce  that  subject  on  his  mind,  and  asked 


400 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


him  if  he  would  remember  it,  and  he  told  them  he  never  would  forget 
it. 

Q.  What  class  of  man  was  he  ? — A.  He  was  a  colored  man,  sorter 
like  this  man  here. 

Q.  Was  he  known  to  be  a  Republican? — A.  Yes,  sir;  all  of  them 
were  Republicans.  1  only  know  one  instance  of  an  outrage  on  a  Dem¬ 
ocrat,  and  this  was  a  personal  one.  He  had  been  maligning  a  woman 
there.  They  took  a  gourd-handle,  about  1^  inches  in  diameter,  and  put 
a  hickory  stick  through  it,  and  run  it  up  his  fundament,  and  they  had 
to  send  for  a  doctor,  a  long  ways  off,  to  get  it  out  with  instruments  that 
they  use  for  delivering  women  of  children. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  others? — A.  They  took  the  Marron  boys  and 
carried  them  away  and  shot  them,  and  knocked  one  of  the  children  in 
the  head.  It  was  alleged  that  that  was  done  on  account  of  barn  burn¬ 
ing  that  had  been  going  on,  and  they  took  these  men  outaud  shot  them 
as  a  sample  of  what  they  would  do  with  the  others. 

Q.  Was  there  any  trial  of  the  parties  that  were  engaged  in  that  ? — A. 
Xo,  sir;  there  was  no  trial  in  any  of  those  cases. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other? — A.  We  had  an  emigrant  from  Indi¬ 
ana  to  our  State,  named  Shoffner,  who  represented  Alamance  County  in 
the  legislature.  He  introduced  a  bill  that  whenever  the  governor 
thought  he  couldn’t  maintain  law  and  order  anywhere  in  the  State,  lie 
should  declare  it  in  a  state  of  insurrection.  It  cost  Governor  Holden 
his  office,  and  Shoft'uer  was  prevented  from  being  massacred  by  acci¬ 
dent. 

Q.  Who  were  going  to  massacre  him  ? — A.  The  White  Brotherhood. 
There  were  seveial  associations  of  them.  The  White  Brotherhood,  the 
Invisible  Empire,  and  the  Stonewall  Guard.  It  was  the  last  oues  who 
wished  to  run  the  Confederacy  if  they  could.  The  heads  of  the  other 
two  organizations  were  called  chiefs.  The  clan  in  one  county  would 
decree  the  death  of  a  man  in  another  county,  and  send  an  order  to  the 
other  county  for  its  execution.  That  is  the  way  they  were  able  to  keep 
it  so  secret.  They  were  sent  word  that  they  were  ready.  They  had 
done  so  in  this  case,  and  Shoffner  was  decreed  to  die.  The  messenger 
went  to  the  wrong  chief,  who  was  a  friend  of  Shoffner’s,  and  he  sent 
dow  n  for  them  not  to  do  it,  as  Shoffner’s  wife  was  about  to  be  confined, 
and  that  it  would  kill  her.  Shoffner  got  word  of  it  in  time,  and  he  went 
off  to  Greensborough,  in  Indiana,  and  hasn’t  been  back  since. 

Q.  This  was  a  Democratic  organization,  was  it? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think 
they  were  all  Democrats. 

Q.  And  these  tilings  occurred  at  the  time  the  change  took  place  from 
a  Republican  to  a  Democratic  government? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  they 
had  as  much  to  do  with  it  as  anything  else.  I  think  it  made  the  State 
Democratic  from  Holden’s  attempt  to  suppress  it.  It  grew  out  of  an 
effort  to  enforce  reconstruction.  Men  got  hold  of  the  secret  organiza¬ 
tion  and  vented  their  spite  on  others. 

Q.  Those  things  occurred  some  six  or  seven  years  ago? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
and  after  the  locofocos  got  control  of  the  State,  they  absolutely  stopped. 
1  called  those  people  locofocos  because  I  don’t  believe  much  in  them. 

Senator  Blair.  These  organizations,  if  I  understand  you,  w7ere  among 
the  agencies  they  used  in  getting  back  to  power  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  remembrance  of  those  things  still  affects  the 
colored  people? — A.  I  think  not.  I  think  it  is  the  hope  of  better  things 
elsewhere  that  makes  them  go  away. 

Q.  What  is  the  effect  upon  the  colored  people,  and  Republicans  gen- 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


401 


erally,  of  this  law  affecting  the  election  of  legislators'? — A.  I  voted 
against  that  amendment  because  of  my  opinions  favoring  universal  suf¬ 
frage,  but  I  think  it  has  done  more  good  in  bringing  the  people  together 
than  anything  else,  especially  in  the  western  counties.  Left  to  them¬ 
selves  they  are  disposed  to  run  an  honest  government,  but  in  these 
counties  they  wasted  the  public  funds,  and  through  other  people  lost 
much  money  by  their  running  away.  I  think  it  is  right  now,  though  I 
voted  against  it,  but  my  conscience  didn’t  satisfy  me  iu  doing  so.  It 
'has  enabled  them  to  save  their  money— but  it  has  done  another  thing — 
it  has  enabled  them  to  pack  their  returning  boards. 

Q.  H  ow  was  that  ? — A.  I  see  a  distinguished  member  of  Congress 
over  there,  a  Democrat,  from  a  district  with  9,000  Republican  majority; 
I  think  that  law  has  something  to  do  with  that. 

Q.  How  is  it  used  in  that  way? — A.  The  magistrates  appointed  by 
the  returning  boards —I  don’t  know  of  any  district  where  it  has  been 
abused  except  in  Kitehin’s  district.  It  didn’t  operate  wrong  in  my 
own  or  in  yours,  Senator  (addressiug  Senator  Vance). 

By  Senator  Vanoe  : 

Q.  Wasn’t  that  result  in  the  second  district  attributable  to  the  Re¬ 
publican^  themselves? — A.  It  may  be. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  How  about  the  discrimination  in  the  courts  as  between  the  whites 
and  blacks? — A.  That  is  principally  in  matters  of  larceny.  In  such 
cases  the  presumption  is  reversed  as  to  the  negro.  A  white  man  can’t 
be  convicted  without  the  fullest  proof,  and  with  the  negroes,  in  matters 
between  themselves,  such  as  assault  and  battery,  they  get  as  fair  a  trial 
as  the  whites.  At  the  January  term  of  our  court  Judge  Avery  presided. 
A  white  man  and  a  colored  woman  were  indicted  for  an  affray.  The 
woman  was  in  her  husband’s  barn  getting  out  corn ;  they  were  going  to 
move,  and  the  white  man  came  down  there  and  said,  u  You  seem  to  have 
a  good  time  laughing  here  this  morning,”  and  she  said,  u  Yes,  she  had 
a  right  to  laugh.”  He  said,  u  You  are  getting  that  corn  out,  and  you 
would  have  made  more  if  you  had  stuck  to  your  husband.”  She  seemed 
to  be  a  sort  of  termagant,  and  she  said  nobody  said  that  about  her  un¬ 
less  you  told  them.  He  made  some  insulting  remark,  aud  she  made 
something  in  return  to  him,  and  he  took  a  billet  of  wood  and  struck  her 
on  the  shoulder,  and  he  pulled  a  pistol  and  beat  her  with  it,- and  she 
went  for  him  to  kill  him.  They  found  the  man  not  guilty,  and  they 
found  her  guilty,  but  Judge  Avery  set  the  verdict  aside  and  ordered 
the  case  nol  prosed  against  her. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  is  a  fair  sample  of  the  justice  they  get? — A. 
Yres,  sir. 

By  Senator  Blair: 

Q  Do  you  think  they  will  convict  a  colored  woman  in  order  to  get  a 
chance  to  turn  loose  a  white  man? — A.  Yes,  sir.  These  people  have 
been  born  in  slavery,  and  the  white  people  of  course  don’t  like  any  im¬ 
pudence  from  them.  In  the  matter  of  larceny  it  is  difficult  to  acquit 
them,  but  I  have  been  a  prosecuting  officer  for  many  years,  and  I  have 
seen  very  few  charged  with  larceny  who  were  not  guilty.  We  don’t 
have  to  run  round  the  country  down  there  looking  up  larceny  cases 
among  them.  It  is  harder  to  convict  a  moonshiner  than  it  is  to  acquit 
a  negro  of  larceny. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  What  are  these  people  doing  in  the  penitentiary  down  there? — A 

26  ex 


402 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


They  are  working  upon  public  improvements.  They  are  not  hired  out 
as  they  are  in  other  States  unless  they  have  a  trade.  I  have  not  heard 
of  any  of  them  complain  about  their  treatment. 

Without  concluding  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Badger  the  committee,  on 
motion,  adjourned  to  Thursday,  February  19,  at  10  a.  m. 


EIGHTEENTH  DAY. 

Washington,  Thursday ,  February  19,  I860. 
The  committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment,  and  proceeded  with  the 
taking  of  testimony. 

TESTIMONY  OF  B.  0.  BADGER  RESUMED. 


R.  C.  Badger  recalled  to  the  stand  for  cross-examination. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Question.  Mr.  Badger,  I  wish  you  would  explain  to  me  a  little  more  fully 
how  this  change  is  effected  by  the  constitution  in  the  election  o(f  county 
officers. — Answer.  The  constitution  of  1868  provided  for  an  entire  change 
of  government  in  the  judicial  and  legislative  departments,  but  general  offi¬ 
cers  were  not  subject  to  legislative  control.  The  counties  were  con¬ 
trolled  by  the  people’s  vote  under  what  is  termed  municipal  government, 
consisting  of  live  commissioners,  elected  once  in  two  years;  and  the 
counties  were  directed  to  be  divided  into  townships,  and  three  magis¬ 
trates  were  directed  to  be  elected  by  the  people  in  those  townships  by 
the  popular  vote,  and  in  towns  one  for  each  ward.  Township  magis¬ 
trates  were  the  trustees  of  the  finances  of  the  county,  and  had  in  charge 
the  roads  and  bridges  and  the  assessment  of  properly  for  taxes ;  and 
the  county  commissioners  had  the  entire  supervision  for  the  whole 
county,  and  elected  judges  of  elections.  An  amendment  by  the  consti¬ 
tution  in  1875  provided  that  the  general  assembly  should  have  author¬ 
ity  to  take  such  appointment  of  such  officers  from  the  people  and  ap¬ 
point  them  it  elf;  and  thereupon  the  general  assembly  did  so. 

Q.  Whom  did  they  appoint! — A.  They  appointed  all  the  magistrates. 

Q.  And  what  did  they  do  ? — A.  They  would  elect  the  board  of  com¬ 
missioners.  The  magistrates  are  required  to  meet  once  in  two  years, 
and  elect  five  of  their  number,  who  are  practically  the  legislature  of  the 
county. 

Q.  What  power  did  those  election  officers  have  ? — A.  If  they  act 
earnestly,  they  have  only  to  count  up  the  returns  ;  but  they  have  ab¬ 
sorbed  a  great  deal  of  authority. 

Q.  vVhat  power  have  they  under  the  law? — A.  They  have  the  power 
to  count  up  the  returns,  and  throw  out  the  balance  for  any  technicality, 
exactly  as  Garcelou  and  Company  did  in  Maine.  They  have  no  power, 
except  they  usurp  it. 

Q.  What  is  the  feeling  in  regard  to  that  change  among  the  Republi¬ 
cans  generally  ? — A.  There  is  a  good  deal  of  bad  feeling  about  their 
counting  out  that  colored  man  in  the  second  district. 

Q.  That  is  the  one  from  which  most  of  these  exodusters  are  traveling? 
— A.  Yes,  sir.  It  may  be  that  the  condition  of  my  section  of  the  State 
is  so  much  better  than  the  general  condition  of  the  State  that  my  re¬ 
marks  may  be  more  highly  colored  than  the  situation  would  admit.  I 
think  Raleigh  and  Charleston  are  the  most  prospering  portions  of  the 
State. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


403 


By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  Yon  were  speaking  of  the  inclination  of  the  colored  race  to  learn. 
Do  you  think  they  are  more  inclined  to  acquire  education  than  the 
white  race  ? — A.  I  think  so.  I  think  that  is  the  general  understanding 
throughout  North  Carolina. 

Q.  How  do  you  account  for  it? — A.  It  is  impossible  to  account  for  it 
to  my  mind.  They  are  a  different  race  of  people.  You  live  in  a  country 
where  there  has  been  a  state  of  freedom;  but  the  result  of  slavery  in 
the  Southern  States  was  this,  that  it  made  a  race  of  landholders  highly 
aristocratic,  and  degraded  the  poor  whites;  and  the  effect  of  that  was 
to  destroy  their  ambition.  They  lived  on  the  ridge  lauds  of  the 
country,  and  they  worked  them,  but  they  had  hard  times.  They  are 
Useful  in  political  times  and  get  a  vote.  They  had  been  in  that  condi¬ 
tion  for  a  hundred  years  up  to  the  end  of  the  war,  and  it  is  hard  to  get 
them  out  of  the  old  ruts.  I  therefore  think  they  are  not  as  ready  to 
learn  as  the  colored  people.  But  the  whites,  I  mean  the  poorer  class, 
are  rapidly  improving. 

Q.  You  think  the  institution  of  slavery  was  injurious  to  the  whole 
people,  white  and  colored  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  in  that  to  account  for  the  avidity  of  the  colored 
people,  now  that  they  are  free,  .to  learn? — A.  No,  sir;  as  I  stated  I  do 
not  know  how  to  fully  account  for  that. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  an  evidence  of  superior  power  or  ambition  in 
them? — A.  No,  sir.  I  think  they  are  still  very  inferior  to  the  white 
race. 

Q.  I  did  notask  that.  I  think  this  is  the  question  I  wished  to  put. 
Does  it  indicate  to  you  that  the  colored  race  is  possessed  of  powers  for  im¬ 
provement  which  were  not  suspected,  even  by  themselves. —  A.  O,  yes. 
After  the  war  a  number  of  people  from  the  North  came  down  there  to 
teach  school,  and  these  people  flocked  to  them  at  once. 

Bv  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Before  the  war  the  negroes  were  not  taught  at  any  time  beyond 
the  use  of  figures  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  While  the  young  ones  were  growing 
up  we  taught  all  our  folks  to  read  and  write. 

Q.  There  is  a  tendency  in  the  race  naturally  to  improve  their  status? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  their  children  since  the  war  have  exhibited  the  same  tend¬ 
ency  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  seems  to  be  born  in  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  know  that  old 
negroes  of  sixty  or  seventy  years  old  wanted  to  go  to  school. 

Q.  And  those  children  born  siuce  have  manifested  the  same  pro¬ 
clivity  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  One  of  the  great  difficulties  in  the  way  of  the 
rising  of  the  negro  race  is  the  want  of  classes  or  of  ranks  of  society. 
Now  they  are  beginning  to  have  them,  and  it  makes  a  marked  effect  on 
»  them. 

Q.  To  what  extent  are  the  colored  race  as  well  as  the  white  race  pro¬ 
vided  with  the  means  of  education  in  North  Carolina  ? — A.  They  are 
well  provided.  The  great  difficulty  is  the  want  of  teachers.  They  are 
well  supplied,  though,  with  chances  to  get  the  ordinary  rudiments pof 
education. 

Q.  And  enough  of  them  to  be  useful  to  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  their 
chances  are  increasing. 

Q.  Are  these  teachers  white  or  colored? — A.  The  teachers  of  the  col¬ 
ored  schools  are  generally  colored. 

Q.  Do  they  have  some  white  teachers  ? — A.  Very  few. 


404 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Are  many  of  the  teachers  from  the  North,  or  are  they  generally 
native  born  ? — A.  They  are  generally  from  the  North,  and  in  the  graded 
schools  we  had  a  number  of  northern  teachers  teaching;  but  the  great 
majority  of  the  teachers  are  natives.  In  the  Shaw  Institute  they  turned 
over  from  sixty  to  seventy  teachers  a  year. 

Q.  Did  they  remain  in  the  State  usually? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  what  compensation  did  they  get  for  teaching? — A.  I  don’t 
know. 

Q.  There  are  some  white  teachers  in  colored  schools,  you  said  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  prejudice  still  remaining  there  against  white  teachers 
of  colored  schools? — A.  1  think  there  is. 

Q.  Will  you  explain  it? — A.  I  cannot  explain  it,  except  by  the  prej¬ 
udices  between  the  races. 

Q.  You  mean,  white  persons  teaching  a  colored  school  loses  social 
status? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


Q.  Now,  awhite  lady  who  comes  from  the  North  and  teaches  a  colored 
school,  to  what  extent  is  she  taboaed  ? — A.  I  don’t  think  she  would 
have  any  acquaintances  in  white  society. 

Q.  Would  she  be  any  quicker  invited  into  white  society  than  a  colored 
woman  ?— A.  Just  about  the  same.  We  have  been  living,  you  know, 
with  the  races  who  were  our  slaves ;  the  slaves  that  we  could  whip 
whenever  we  wanted  to,  though  we  did  not  do  it  as  much  as  were  rep¬ 
resented.  They  could  not  read  or  write,  except  to  figure  a  little,  and 
were  never  allowed  to  work  for  themselves.  In  all  respects  they  are  re¬ 
garded  now  as  a  hired  class  of  people,  and  any  association  between 
them  and  the  white  class  is  almost  impossible. 

Q.  And  it  is  that  way  still  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  prejudice  against  white  people  who  are  instru¬ 
ments  m  raising  them  to  a  higher  development  is  lessening? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  I  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  think  ultimately  it  will  disappear? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  one  of 
the  things  which  has  operated  most  against  such  people  was  that  they 
are  attempting  to  brave  the  public  opinion  by  such  things  as  walking 
up  and  down  the  streets  with  the  negroes.  I  think  that  has  done  more 
harm  than  anything  else.  We  have  old  negroes  called  mammies,  who 
raised  up  many  of  the  white  men,  who  came  into  the  house  over  night 
and  staid  there.  They  are  still  treated  with  respect  and  even  affection; 
but  there  is  generally  an  entire  disassociatiou  between  the  two  races. 

Q.  Mr.  Badger,  you  seem  to  have  studied  this  question  philosophi¬ 
cally.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  what  your  opinion  is  as  to  these  socia¬ 
ble  distinctions,  whether  they  are  such  as  will  last  for  all  time,  or 
whether  by  the  lapse  of  time  they  will  disappear? — A.  I  tliiuk  it  will 
be  indefinitely  prolonged.  A  great  many  of  the  prejudices  may  be 
broken  down.  Our  leading  politicians  seem  to  work  in  that  direction; 
among  them  our  Senator  from  North  Carolina,  who  was  a  member  of 
this  committee.  He  has  attended  numbers  of  their  meetings  and  always 
seemed  to  apologize  for  being  there.  I  saw  him  once  at  one  of  the 
emancipation  meetings.  They  had  a  fair  also  at  Raleigh,  and  our  pres¬ 
ent  governor  made  a  bold,  outspoken,  straightforward  speech,  stating 
that  he  would  see  that  they  get  all  their  rights;  yet  he  is  trying  to  be 
governor  again,  and  on  the  emancipation  day  last  he  made  the  same 
sort  of  speech;  being  a  politician,  I  was  struck  with  the  boldness  of  it, 
and  1  think  it  struck  them  as  it  did  me.  It  was  much  the  same  as  the 
speech  made  by  the  Senator  from  North  Carolina. 

Q.  You  were  about  the  only  white  man  present  on  that  occasion  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


405 


By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  So  it  is  understood  that  when  Governor  Vance  and  others  spoke 
to  them  it  was  for  political  effect? — A.  No,  sir;  I  don’t  think  so.  I 
think  at  that  time  he  was  trying  to  get  elected  to  the  Senate,  and  he 
went  and  made  a  speech. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  You  said  that  I  made  a  sort  of  apology.  The  apology  was  to  the 
white  people,  wasn’t  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  And  he  thought  it  was  necessary  to  carry  this  negro  vote  ? — - 
A.  No,  sir ;  I  think  it  was  made  to  preserve  the  Democratic  ascendancy. 

Q.  You  think  there  are  a  majority  of  Republican  votes  in  the  State  ? — 
A.  I  am  inclined  to  doubt  that. 

Q.  You  stated  that  the  change  was  made  in  the  constitution  taking 
from  the  people  the  right  to  elect  their  magistrates  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  but 
that  was  a  direct,  bargain  and  trade  by  which  it  was  understood  and 
agreed,  but  not  put  down  on  the  paper,  that  the  eastern  people  would 
aid  in  putting  forward  the  West  North  Carolina  Railroad,  and  in  return 
to  have  from  the  legislature  the  selection  of  their  magistrates. 

Q.  Why  did  the  people  want  the  change  made? — A.  On  account  of 
the  corruption  of  their  county  authorities. 

Q.  So  you  think  those  people  are  unable  to  exercise  the  right  of 
suffrage  properly  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Senator  VANCE  : 

Q.  Not  all  of  them,  Mr.  Badger  ? — A.  No,  sir  5  I  don’t  say  that ;  and 
then  it  is  only  the  magistrates  who  are  elected  by  the  general  assem¬ 
bly. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  And  other  officers  are  merely  executive,  such  as  sheriff,  county 
trustee,  clerks,  and  others  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  elected  by  the  people  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  what  gives  to  the  illiterate  the  idea  of  voting  for  their 
officers? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  l  think  the  system  gives  them  better  officers 
than  the  old  ones. 

Q.  Then  it  comes  to  this  :  that  it  is  better  that  these  people  should 
not  be  governed  by  themselves  ? — A.  I  think  experience  has  proven  it. 
You  take  the  counties  of  Halifax  or  Clayton,  and  their  county  treas¬ 
uries  have  been  depleted  and  utterly  wasted,  and  every  species  of  robbery 
that  could  be  committed  had  been  carried  on  until  they  are  now  in  a 
state  of  prostration  financially.  This  is  the  result  of  the  old  form  of 
government.  In  Edgecomb  and  Warren  they  could  have  gone  forward 
and  controlled  them,  and  if  the  white  people  had  awakened  to  their 
duty,  instead  of  turning  them  over  to  adventurers  from  the  North.  The 
change  in  the  government  was  required  by  the  desertion  of  the  respecta¬ 
ble  white  Republicans  from  these  people. 

Q.  You  think  the  change  is  due  to  those  corruptions? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
in  a  great  part.  I  kept  our  county  right,  with  the  exception  of  our 
sheriff,  who  stole  $90,000  ;  but  we  couldn’t  help  it. 

Q.  That  was  the  effect  of  what  ?  I  mean  this  changed  condition  of 
affairs  and  this  general  corruption  in  office — what  caused  it? — A.  It 
grew  out  of  the  attempt  to  enforce  reconstruction. 

Q.  That  was  the  effect  of  the  war  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  the  war  grow  out  of  ? — x\.  The  war  grew  out  of  the  fact 
that  you  had  in  the  Presidential  chair  an  old  Locofaco. 


406 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Who  was  that? — A.  James  Buchanan. 

Q.  The  war  came,  and  slavery  was  abolished;  and  that  resulted  in 
the  demoralization  of  your  society - 

The  Witness.  I  would  like  to  answer  that  part  of  the  question. 

Senator  Blair.  I  am  asking  the  question. 

The  Chairman.  I  insist  that  he  has  a  right  to  answer  the  question  in 
all  its  parts. 

Senator  Blair.  I  protest  against  it  until  I  finish  my  question. 

The  Chairman.  I  insist  that  he  has  a  right  to  answer  the  question  in 
such  a  way  as  to  make  his  answer  satisfactory  and  intelligible,  and  if 
you  insist  upon  your  protest,  we  clear  this  room  and  decide  whether  he 
has  a  right  to  answer  or  not. 

Senator  Blair.  1  was  asking  the  question,  and  he  began  to  answer 
before  I  finished.  I  made  no  remark  to  call  for  his  interruption  ;  and  I 
expected  to  put  a  proper  question.  I  think  the  chairman  lias  no  right 
to  interrupt  me  in  the  manner  in  which  he  has  done. 

The  Chairman.  Your  question  culminated  in  this :  that  the  war 
came  and  slavery  abolished,  and  society  in  the  South  demoralized  ;  and 
at  this  point  the  witness  desired  to  answer  that  full  question ;  aud  I 
think  he  has  a  right  to  answer  it,  and  I  think  so  still. 

Senator  Blair.  I  state  that  the  witness  had  previously  said,  that  the 
condition  of  things  in  the  State  grew  out  of  enforced  reconstruction,  aud 
even  weut  back  to  the  days  of  James  Buchanan,  as  the  cause  of  the 
war.  I  said  that  the  war  came,  and  slavery  was  abolished  ;  and  society 
was  demoralized  as  the  result. 

The  Chairman.  Will  you  please  state  what  your  objection  is  ? 

Senator  Blair.  Let  me  state  it.  I  wished  him  to  understand  my 
question,  and  after  he  answers  it,  lie  can  make  auy  explanation  he 
pleases. 

The  Chairman.  It  is  the  right  of  the  witness  to  answer  the  question 
in  the  way  in  which  he  desires  to  go  on  record.  That  was  the  reason 
why  I  interposed  ;  not  desiring  to  throw  any  obstacle  in  the  way  of  in¬ 
vestigation. 

Senator  Blair.  I  acquit  the  chairman  of  any  such  object.  I  claim 
no  perfection  as  a  practitioner  in  this  investigation,  but  I  say  I  have  the 
right  to  ask  the  witness  the  question. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  I  say,  Mr.  Badger,  this  demoralization  having  come  through  the 
South,  wasn’t  this  reconstruction  a  necessity  ?  —A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Now,  will  you  allow  me  to  say  one  thing'?  In  that  question  there 
was  an  assumption  that  the  demoralization  came  with  the  war  and  the 
abolishing  of  slavery,  but  the  demoralization  grew  as  much  out  of  the 
fact  that  the  Southern  people  were  in  a  state  of  siege  for  four  years. 
They  were  utterly  demoralized  before  the  abolishing  of  slavery  and  the 
results  of  the  war  had  been  accomplished.  Now,  I  want  to  call  your 
attention  to  the  initial  point  of  my  inquiry;  that  is,  where  the  blamefor 
these  evils  rests.  If  the  white  people,  at  the  close  of  the  war,  had 
chosen  to  exercise  their  rights,  and  sought,  as  you  say  they  now  do, 
to  live  in  harmony  with  the  colored  people,  would  not  these  evils  of 
enforced  reconstruction  have  disappeared,  or  never  appeared  at  all  1 — 
A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Then  the  fact  is  that  the  reason  the  carpet-bagger  came  and  pos¬ 
sessed  the  negro  vote  and  controlled  the  destinies  of  North  Carolina  and 
other  Southern  States,  was  because  the  white  people  refused  to  exer¬ 
cise  their  rights  and  influence  ? — A.  That  is  a  very  long  question  ;  please 
state  it  again. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


407 


Q.  i  say  the  fact  is  that  the  carpet-bagger  gained  his  ascendancy  in 
the  South,  through  the  negro  vote,  simply  because  the  white  people  at 
first  refused  to  exercise  their  rights  and  influence? — A.  I  think  so.  If 
Congress  in  18GG  had  seen  fit  in  its  wisdom  to  seat  the  Senators  and 
Representatives  elected  under  the  Johnson  reconstruction,  there  would 
have  been  no  difficulty.  That  is  one  of  the  reasons  why  I  think  the 
national  government  had  to  take  charge  and  enforce  reconstruction. 

Q.  And  has  there  been  any  time  when  the  Southern  white  man  has 
not  had  the  civil  rights  and  right  of  suffrage  which  he  now  enjoys  ? — A. 
Only  as  restricted  by  the  exceptions  put  into  the  proclamation  of  An¬ 
drew  Johnson  ;  that  is,  he  excepted  anybody  who  had  been  in  the  serv¬ 
ice  of  the  Confederate  States  and  those  who  had  been  worth  over 
$20,000. 

Q.  That  did  not  last  long? — A.  No,  sir;  he  afterwards  pardoned  the 
most  of  them. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  time  since  when  they  did  not  have  all  their 
rights  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  think  not. 

Q.  If  the  white  people  had  from  the  first  exercised  their  rights  and 
accepted  the  situation,  do  you  think  any  such  things  would  have  resulted 
as  the  Kuklux  ? — A.  I  think  it  grew  out  of  a  system  of  brigandage  such 
as  follows  all  wars  like  the  one  we  had.  I  think  one-half  of  it  was  bri¬ 
gandage.  If  you  will  look  at  it  carefully,  you  will  find  it  had  no  ap¬ 
proval  among  the  masses  of  our  people.  During  the  war  all  our 
able-bodied  population  went  to  war,  but  the  negroes  were  left  at  home 
and  remained  faithful  as  the  docile  animal  that  he  is.  And  when  the 
war  ended  with  us,  but  for  Sherman  issuing  rations  to  the  people  we 
would  have  been  the  same  as  Ireland  is  now  to-day. 

Q.  Who  were  these  Kuklux  organizations  composed  of? — A.  Of 
Democrats. 

Q.  Were  they  confined  to  the  Democratic  party  I— A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
think  they  were,  although  it  was  alleged  in  the  papers  and  stated  by 
the  late  Governor  Graham,  in  his  speech  on  the  impeachment  of  Gov¬ 
ernor  Holden,  that  there  was  a  negro  Kuklux  clan  in  the  county  of 
Graham. 

Q.  Do  you  have  occasion  as  a  lawyer  to  know  the  operations  of  the 
landlord  and  tenant  act  in  North  Carolina? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  effect  of  it  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  the  effect  of  it  is,  in  my 
opinion,  to  enable  the  colored  and  poor  people  of  the  State  to  cultivate 
land.  We  have  a  homestead  exemption  of  $1,000  in  land  (which  means 
about  $2,000)  and  $500  of  personal  property.  That  exemption  has  taken 
away  about  all  of  the  credit  of  the  poorer  class  of  people,  and  the  landlord 
and  tenant  act  was  desigued  to  give  the  landlord  a  hold  on  the  tenant  for 
his  rent.  It  operates  well,  although  it  is  sometimes  abused. 

Q.  You  speak  of  its  being  abused — how? — A.  Our  landlord  and  tenant 
act  virtually  vests  the  whole  possession  of  the  crop  in  the  landlord,  and  if 
he  is  a  bad  man  it  makes  him  an  autocrat  and  places  extraordinary  power 
in  his  hands.  But  that  is  an  evil  that  grows  out  of  the  condition  of  things 
there. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  \rou  think,  generally  speaking,  it  is  beneficial  in  its  operations  '? — A. 
AYs,  sir;  Ido. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  Where  abused  it  makes  it  practically  impossible  for  a  tenant  to 
accumulate  anything? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  let  me  explain.  The  crop  in 
our  country  is  different  from  any  crop  you  raise  in  your  country.  The 


408 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


cotton  crop  is  eminently  a  labor  crop  from  the  planting  to  the  picking 
In  the  mean  time  the  tenant  has  to  have  supplies,  implements,  manures? 
&c.  The  trouble  with  him  usually  is  that  he  caunot  get  the  first  pick¬ 
ings  to  sell  in  order  to  hire  help  to  assist  him  in  picking  out  the  balance 
of  the  crop.  There  is  where  the  tenant  is  entirely  in  the  hands  of  the 
landlord. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  colored  men  are  owners  of  real  estate  ? — A. 
A  very  limited  number. 

Q.  One  in  twenty? — A.  I  could  not  say,  for  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Is  there  one  in  one  hundred  ? — A.  I  would  not  wish  to  testify  to 
that,  because  I  know  it  is  a  very  limited  number. 

Q.  I  have  reference  to  heads  of  families. — A.  I  think  there  are  very 
few  of  them  who  own  land;  a  very  limited  number.  I  think  in  this 
country  from  which  these  people  are  exodusting  there  are  fewer  land¬ 
lords  than  in  my  country.  I  think  in  my  part  of  the  country  they  are 
improving  in  that  regard.  That  improvidence  for  which  colored  men 
have  been  proverbial  is  passing  away. 

By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  You  have  stated  that  you  thought  when  you  had  an  educated  class 
of  colored  people  many  of  these  race  distinctions  would  pass  away  ? — A. 
Yes,,  sir. 

Q.  My  own  theory  has  been  that  the  cause  of  these  political  disturb¬ 
ances  in  the  South,  and  class  distinctions,  was  the  fact  that  in  numbers 
of  districts  there  are  a  majority  of  colored  people. — A.  I  think  a  great 
deal  of  it  grows  out  of  that  fact. 

■  Q.  Do  you  notthiuk  if  there  could  be  a  well  ordered,  voluntary  distri¬ 
bution  of  these  colored  people  these  sectional  questions  and  differences 
would  be  mitigated  ? — A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  not,  therefore,  think  that  if  it  could  be  directed  properly 
and  rightly,  an  exodus  of  them  to  other  States  would  have  a  good  effect 
on  them  ? — A.  It  would  have  a  good  effect  on  the  white  people  in  the 
South,  but  it  would  be  a  horrible  thing  on  the  colored  people. 

Q.  I  mean  for  them  to  emigrate  to  some  State  where  they  can  live  : 
not  to  Indiana,  where  they  do  not  seem  to  be  well  received  ? — A.  If  you 
have  a  country  ready  where  you  can  take  them  and  settle  them  it  would 
be  a  good  thing. 

Q.  I  do  not  mean  to  take  them  there,  for  I  do  not  believe  myself  that 
the  government  has  a  right  to  take  them  anywhere. — A.  But  I  think, 
Mr.  Senator,  humanity  requires  that  you  leave  them  where  they  are. 
If  the  progress  of  good  feeling  among  them  is  not  disturbed  there  will 
soon  be  thorough  amity  between  the  two  races  ;  there  will  not  be  social 
freedom,  but  they  will  have  amity  between  them. 

Q.  Do  not  you  think  the  progress  of  which  you  speak  is  greater  in 
North  Carolina  than  it  has  been  in  some  other  Southern  States? — A.  I 
think  it  is  better  in  North  Carolina  than  in  any  other  Southern  State. 
I  have  been  in  Florida  and  South  Carolina,  and  know  it  is  better  than 
in  either  of  them. 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  Judge  Tourgee  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  read  his  book,  “The  Fool’s  Errand”? — A.  No,  sir. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  in  relation  to  these  white  teachers  going  down 
there,  and  not  being  received  into  the  best  society.  Don’t  you  know 
that  after  the  war  the  white  teachers  who  went  down  there  put  up  with 
the  negroes,  and  lived  with  them,  and  thereby  created  a  prejudice 
against  themselves  ? — A.  A  great  many  of  them  did;  but  I  know  many 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


409 


of  them  who  might  well  be  entitled  to  reception  in  high  society.  They 
are  a  fanatical  people,  it  is  true.  They  are  people  who  went  there  to 
take  charge  of  the  ignorant  people  and  educate  them,  and  they  made 
the  mistake  by  seeming  to  ignore  the  feelings  of  the  white  class  of  our 
people.  At  that  time,  however,  they  would  have  been  ignored,  I  think, 
if  they  had  not  done  so,  but  I  know  three  particular  in  the  normal  school 
in  Raleigh  who  might  well  be  received  into  the  best  society. 

Q.,  Do  you  know  a  gentleman  there  named  Sneed? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he 
teaches  there. 

Q.  And  he  is  received  in  the  best  society,  is  he  not? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
he  is. 

Q.  You  made  one  remark  which,  I  think,  is  calculated  to  do  our  peo¬ 
ple  injustice.  You  stated,  I  think,  that  no  poor  man  had  a  chance  to 
rise  there? — A.  I  meant  to  say  he  had  a  very  limited  chance,  but  that 
does  not  apply  to  your  part  of  the  country,  Senator. 

Q.  You  don’t  mean  to  say  that  there  is  anything  there  that  prevents 
any  man  from  rising  who  has  talents  and  merits? — A.  I  said  it  was 
almost  impossible  for  them  to  do  so.  They  can’t  compete  with  the  ne¬ 
gro  as  laborers,  and  they  have  very  little  chance  to  rise  from  that 
capacity. 

Q.  You  don’t  mean  that  if  a  poor  boy  could  get  an  education  he  would 
not  have  a  chance  to  rise? — x\.  No,  sir;  I  know  many  of  them  who  did 
get  an  education  and  rose  in  the  world  ;  but  I  mean  as  a  class  they 
can’t  rise;  he  will  be  kept  as  their  fathers  were,  as  the  poorer  class  of 
our  society. 

Q.  You  said,  yesterday,  I  believe,  that  the  principal  agent  in  putting 
the  State  under  the  control  of  the  Democratic  party  was  the  Kuklux? 
— A.  No,  sir ;  I  said  it  was  one  of  the  agencies,  and  I  would  like  to  say 
here  that  the  operation  of  Governor  Holden  in  trying  to  put  down  the 
Kuklux  by  the  military,  under  the  Shaffner  act,  caused  a  revolution  of 
sentiment,  and  made  the  State  Democratic,  and  the  passage  of  the 
act  of  Congress  called  the  civil  rights  act,  with  the  hotel  rights  and  all 
that  in  which,  had  a  good  deal  with  it. 

Q.  Didn’t  the  spoliation  of  the  State  treasury  in  1868  have  something 
to  do  with  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  brigandage  system  there? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  I  didn’t 
mean  that  these  people  went  around  and  stole  anything,  but  they  went 
about  cutting  up,  whipping  and  slashing  any  one  against  whom  they 
had  any  spite.  I  adhered  to  that  term  of  brigandage.  I  went  for  them 
whenever  I  had  a  chance,  and  denounced  them  as  robbers  and  theives, 
and  all  that. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  a  man  who  participated  in  those  transactions 
didn’t  allege  as  the  cause  a  great  many  outrages  on  the  other  side, 
such  as  barn  burning  and  outrages  on  women  by  the  negroes? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  I  think  so;  there  was  such  charges  made  on  both  sides. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  You  say  the  colored  people  are  rapidly  improving? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Still  you  say  the  social  distinctions  between  the  races  will  always 
remain? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  so. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  what,  in  your  opinion,  is  the  prospect  of  peace 
between  these  two  races,  when  each  shall  have  attained  a  higher  condi¬ 
tion  of  development.  Do  you  think  there  will  be  peace  and  amity  be¬ 
tween  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  so. 

Q.  With  this  same  social  distinction  remaining? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and 
just  here  I  would  remark  that  the  negroes  are  increasing  much  more  in 


410 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


proportion  than  the  whites.  There  are  no  old  maids  among  the  colored 
people,  and  this  result  will  be  shown  by  the  census  1880.  It  will  show 
a  very  rapid  advance  in  the  population  of  the  colored  people.  If  you 
would  put  four  hundred  thousand  colored  people  and  six  hundred  thou¬ 
sand  white  people,  and  keep  them  for  four  generations,  there  would  be 
more  negroes  at  the  end  of  the  time  than  whites.  They  begin  to  bear 
at  sixteen  years  of  age,  and  generally  have  from  eight  to  ten  children. 
It  is  a  mistake  to  think  that  they  are  dying  more  rapidly  now  than  ever 
before.  It  you  will  take  the  next  census  you  will  see  it  for  yourself. 

By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Aside  from  any  question  of  races,  Mr.  Badger,  is  it  not  better  for 
all  parties  that  this  distinction  socially  should  be  kept  up  between  the 
races  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  1  think  it  better  for  both  races;  both  of  them  will 
be  all  the  better  off  for  it.  As  to  the  negroes’  health,  the  only  branch  of 
the  colored  race  that  is  not  healthy  is  the  quadroon.  From  the  quad¬ 
roon  and  up  to  the  octoroon,  they,  I  think,  are  a  very  unhealthy  race  of 
people,  and  a  few  people  of  our  section  in  the  country  who  have  con¬ 
sumption  are  mulattoes.  They  will  not  mix  with  each  other,  but  should 
not  do  so,  because  it  kills  out  the  race. 


TESTIMONY  OF  J.  B.  MAYNARD. 


J.  B.  Maynard  sworn  and  examined  as  follows : 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside,  Mr.  Maynard  ? — Answer.  Indianapo¬ 
lis,  Indiana,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  youi  occupation  ? — A.  Journalism. 

Q.  What  paper  are  you  employed  editorially  upon  ? — A.  The  Indian¬ 
apolis  Sentinel. 

Q.  State  whether  your  attention  has  been  called  to  the  immigration  of 
colored  people  from  the  South  to  our  State. — A.  It  has. 

Q.  State  whether  you  have  interested  yourself  in  the  subject. — A. 
Somewhat,  sir. 

Q.  State  whether  you  have  conversed  with  any  of  these  folks. — A.  I 
have,  to  some  extent. 

Q.  How  many,  do  you  suppose? — A.  Some  six  or  eight. 

Q.  Men  or  women? — A.  Men,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  meet  them  ? — A.  I  met  them  at  different  places. 

Q.  In  and  about  Indianapolis  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  may  state  to  this  committee  briefly,  but  in  your  own  way, 
their  general  condition  out  there,  the  promises  which  they  say  induced 
them  to  come  there,  and  whether  they  found  those  promises  to  be  true 
or  false. — A.  1  think,  sir,  that  with  all  with  whom  I  talked  on  the  prop¬ 
osition  you  state  there  was  a  very  general  agreement.  They  said  they 
were  induced  to  leave  North  Carolina  and  come  to  Indiana  on  account 
of  representations  that  their  condition  in  Indiana  would  be  greatly  im¬ 
proved;  first,  because  they  would  receive  much  larger  wages,  and 
second,  because  they  would  have  pleasant  homes,  as  they  could  have 
lands  cheap,  with  long  time  to  pay  for  them  ;  and  therefore  their  situa¬ 
tion  would  be  greatly  improved. 

Q.  How  about  the  wages  they  were  to  get? — A.  The  general  state¬ 
ment  was  that  they  were  to  ges  from  $13  to  $3  per  day. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


411 


Q.  How  about  monthly  wages  ! — A.  I  do  not  remember  what  the 
monthly  wages  were  stated  at.  Perhaps,  as  to  women  in  houses,  they 
were  to  be  from  $15  to  $25  per  month. 

Q.  How  did  they  say  they  had  found  things  to  be  in  Indiana  ! — A. 
They  said  they  had  found  every  representation  to  be  false,  without  ex¬ 
ception.  They  found  neither  a  demand  for  labor,  nor  wages,  nor  homes, 
nor  cows,  nor  lauds,  nor  anything  else  that  was  promised. 

Q.  What  were  their  dispositions  on  the  subject  of  returning  home! — 
A.  Everyone  I  saw  was  desirous  of  returning  home,  where  he  said  their 
condition  was  better  than  anything  they  had  seen  in  Indiana.  One 
man,  who  had  been  there  five  weeks,  said  lie  had  only  been  able  to 
earn  eight  dollars.  A  number  have  been  there  a  long  time  and  had 
nothing  to  do.  Some  of  them  said  if  things  did  not  improve  soon  they 
would  be  thrown  on  the  county  for  charity  and  support.  In  fact,  they 
have  found  the  situation  very  bad  out  there. 

Q.  Have  you  informed  yourself,  Colonel  Maynard,  as  to  the  condition 
of  a  good  many  of  these  folks  who  are  in  Indianapolis — whether  they 
have  been  employed  and  are  self-sustaining,  or  are  the  objects  of  pub¬ 
lic  charity  ! — A.  I  think  the  work  of  relieving  them  by  public  charity 
had  begun  before  I  left,  and  application  had  been  made  to  the  township 
trustee  for  assistance,  and  it  had  been  granted — to  what  extent  I  know 
not — but  to  some  extent  I  am  positive. 

Q.  From  your  observation  of  the  newspaper  press  there  up  to  this 
time,  state  whether  there  is  a  standing  appeal  for  charity  for  these  folks 
published  in  the  papers. — A.  I  think  that  is  true,  not  only  in  our  State 
but  in  other  States  to  which  these  people  have  emigrated.  I  speak  of 
th  ose  with  whom  I  conversed,  and  they  were  destitute  of  all  means, 
even  of  helping  themselves  by  work,  however  willing  to  do  work. 

Q.  There  is  no  opposition  in  our  State  to  immigrants  coming  there 
who  can  support  themselves,  or  for  whom  labor  can  be  had  ! — A.  No, 
sir;  I  think  not. 

Q.  The  objection  is  to  the  coming  of  a  pauper  population  ! — A.  I  think 
that  is  true. 

Q.  Have  you  familiarized  yourself  sufficiently  with  the  labor  question 
out  there  to  say  whether  we  have  more  labor  than  is  in  demand  or  not! 
— A.  My  attention  has  been  specially  called  to  that  question  for  the  last 
four  years,  and  I  have  often  discussed  it  from  various  standpoints.  I  am 
familiar  with  the  press  of  the  State,  daily  and  weekly,  and  I  have  not  no¬ 
ticed  in  any  of  them  any  call  for  labor,  either  from  the  farming  districts  or 
any  other  part  of  the  country.  My  observation  is  to  the  effect  that  there 
has  been  a  surplus  of  labor  in  the  State.  There  is  a  standing  appeal 
from  thousands  of  good,  industrious  men  lor  employment  at  any  wages 
at  all.  Some  of  these  have  come  to  my  knowledge  and  attracted  my  at¬ 
tention,  among  them  being  mechanics  who  formerly  earned  from  two 
dollars  to  three  dollars  per  day,  and  who  to-day  are  willing  to  engage 
in  any  labor  at  almost  any  price,  and  cannot  get  employment  at  all. 

Q.  State  if,  in  your  writings  as  a  journalist,  you  have  sought  to  reflect 
public  sentiment  in  Indiana  upon  the  subject  of  this  exodus  ! — A.  I 
have,  sir. 

^  Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  Republican  paper  that  has  pointed  out  the 
evils  of  this  exodus,  and  the  suffering  the  people  undergo  who  engage 
in  it  ! — A.  Not  one,  sir. 

Q._jThey  rather  smile  and  wink  at  it! — A.  It  looks  so. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  What  are  the  politics  of  the  Ledger! — A.  It  does  not  occur  to  me 
what  its  politics  are. 


412 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  tickets  having  been  bought  recently  to 
bring  Irish  immigrants  to  Indiana? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Yon  have  never  been  a  farmer  yourself? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  been. 

Q.  When,  if  you  please? — A.  When  I  was  a  young  man,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  is  it  since  you  were  on  a  farm  in  Indiana? — A.  I  never 
worked  on  one  in  Indiana. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  on  a  farm  in  Indiana? — A.  I  never  worked  on  one 
there. 

Q.  Have  you  consulted  with  any  of  the  farmers  about  the  demand  for 
farm  laborers  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

A.  How  many  have  you  consulted? — A.  Up  to  what  time  do  you  re¬ 
fer  me,  if  you  please  ? 

Q.  Within  the  last  three  months? — A.  I  think  probably  a  dozen,  and 
I  have  met  gentlemen  from  different  parts  of  the  State,  and  my  atten¬ 
tion  has  been  called  to  the  subject  by  conversing  with  them.  I  am  sat¬ 
isfied  these  people  are  not  in  demand  out  there.  The  supply  of  native 
labor  is  even  far  in  excess  of  the  demand  in  the  best  seasons. 


TESTIMONY  OF  WT.  0.  CHASE. 


W.  C.  Chase,  colored,  sworn  and  examined  as  follows: 

By  the  Chairman: 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside? — Answer.  1109  I  street,  northwest. 

Q.  Where  are  you  from  ? — A.  I  was  born  here. 

Q.  Have  you  lived  here  all  your  life? — A.  I  lived  here  all  the  time. 

Q.  What  did  you  ever  have  to  do  with  the  Emigration  Aid  Society, 
and  what  propositions  did  they  ever  make  to  you? — A.  In  the  first 
society  that  was  organized  I  was  the  corresponding  secretary,  and  was 
also  the  correspondent  of  the  Boston  Observer.  Mr.  Carshon  was  after¬ 
wards  made  secretary,  and  Mr.  Wall  was  made  chairman  ;  but  as  ho 
could  not  control  the  society  he  withdrew  and  organized  another.  The 
presumption  of  the  people  of  the  District  was,  that  he  organized  it  to 
speculate  with,  and  they  didn’t  join  readily.  Several  months  ago  I  met 
Mr.  Wall  on  Seventh  street,  and  he  said  he  had  some  emigrants  coming 
from  North  Carolina  with  Perry,  and  he  wanted  me  to  take  the  agency 
of  the  society.  He  said  ho  would  pay  me,  and  I  went  to  his  office  but 
didn’t  find  him.  I  went  to  the  office  and  saw  Adams,  and  he  said  he 
didn’t  know  where  Wall  was.  I  didn’t  see  him  any  more  until  a  meet¬ 
ing  was  called  to  denounce  this  whole  scheme.  Wall  is  so  well  known, 
that  we  knew  his  only  object  was  to  speculate  on  the  ignorant  people  of 
the  South.  A  resolution  was  introduced  in  the  Senate  by  Senator 
Dorsey,  and  I  sent  this  correspondence  to  the  Boston  Observer  about  it. 
The  following  is  the  correspondence  (reading): 

“Senator  Dorsey  presented  a  memorial  signed  by  three  hundred  colored 
citizens  of  the  District  of  Columbia  West  Emigration  Society,  asking 
for  seventy-five  thousand  dollars  as  a  loan,  to  enable  them  to  emigrate 
to  the  unoccupied  lands  in  the  West.” 

Q.  Is  that  all? — A.  Yes,  sir.  1  met  Mr.  Wall  on  Seventh  street,  and 
he  asked  me  to  take  a  place  for  a  dollar  a  day  ;  but  I  didn’t  do  it,  be¬ 
cause  the  people  in  the  District  have  no  confidence  in  him. 

Q.  In  what  way  were  you  to  make  a  dollar  a  day? — A.  By  assisting 
him  in  this  scheme. 

Q.  In  what  wmy  ? — A.  I  presume  he  wanted  me  to  go  to  North  Caro¬ 
lina,  like  Perry  and  Williams. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


413 


Q.  Did  he  speak  to  you  of  them? — A.  Yes,  sir.  lie  said  they  had 
been  into  North  Carolina,  and  were  coming  back. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  what  they  were  making  ? — A.  No,  sir.  Afterwards 
we  called  a  meeting  of  citizens  to  denounce  this  scheme.  A  meeting 
was  held  at  the  corner  of  Eleventh  and  I  streets,  and  I  was  elected 
secretary  ot  the  meeting. 

Q.  Then  you  didn’t  approve  of  this  movement? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  is  the  general  opinion  among  the  more  intelli¬ 
gent  people  of  your  race  ? — A.  The  general  sentiment  is  that  they  con¬ 
sider  it  a  scheme  of  a  speculative  character,  and  detrimental  to  the  in¬ 
terest  of  the  colored  people. 


By  Senator  Windom  : 

Q.  You  say  that  you  know  Mr.  Wall  was  designing  to  speculate  off 
the  ignorance  of  the  colored  people  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  know  it? — A.  I  have  known  him  for  five  or  six  years, 
and  I  know  he  never  enters  into  anything  except  he  makes  something 
out  of  it. 

Q.  You  say  he  is  a  man  in  bad  standing  with  the  people? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  say  he  had  Perry  and  Williams  engaged? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that  ? — A.  He  said  he  expected  them  to  come 
from  North  Carolina  with  some  emigrants  aud  he  said  he  had  two  or 
three  men  engaged  there. 

Q.  Give  his  language  as  near  as  you  can. — A.  He  said,  “  Mr.  Chase,  my 
son  Stevey  tells  me  that  you  will  assist  in  anything  I  ask,  and  said  you 
are  a  friend  of  his.”  I  said,  u  Yes  ”;  and  he  said,  “  I  have  got  some  men 
coming  from  North  Carolina,  and  with  them  is  a  man  named  Perry,  whom  I 
have  engaged,”  and  said  to  me,  “I  would  make  you  president  of  the  West¬ 
ern  Emigrant  Aid  Society,  but  you  are  a  single  man.”  He  said,  “Come  to 
my  office  and  I  will  show  you  my  plan.”  I  went  to  see  him  as  I  stated.  I  saw 
Mr.  Otey,  who  said  that  the  reason  he  resigned  from  the  association  was 
that  the  assertion  was  made  in  a  meeting  that  they  were  to  send  so  many 
negroes  to  Indiana  and  so  many  to  other  States  in  order  to  vote  them, 
and  for  that  reason  he  resigned. 

Q.  You  think  that  Wall  is  a  very  dishonest  man? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Haven’t  you  been  convicted  of  larceny  at  any  time  ? — A.  Yes,  sir, 
but  unjustly;  so  I  will  state  the  circumstances,  that  you  may  see.  I 
lived  on  I  street,  and  my  mother  rents  a  store  to  a  man  named  Nichols 
fora  shoe  store,  and  a  man  came  along  and  got  his  shoes  mended.  I 
came  down,  and  he  said,  “Don’t you  stay  there,  and  were  you  not  present 
when  this  man  promised  to  pay  me  one  dollar  and  a  quarter,  and  I  said 
“Yes”;  and  I  said  to  him  to  take  the  shoes  back ;  he  took  them  and  I  went 
to  Harper’s  Ferry.  When  I  came  back  there  was  a  warrant  out  for  me, 
and  I  went  to  Judge  Bundy.  He  was  a  Democratic  judge,  and  said  to 
mo  that  I  was  unjustly  convicted,  and  I  got  a  certiorari,  and  it  is  there 
now. 

Q.  You  paid  the  fine  though,  didn’t  you  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  was  it  ? — A.  Ten  dollars. 


By  Senator  Blair  : 

*/ 

Q.  You  were  secretary  of  that  first  organization  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  were  you  organizing  to  send  emigrants  ? — A.  We  were  or¬ 
ganizing  to  send  helpless  colored  people  of  this  city  to  Kansas.  It  was 
for  the  poor  people  of  this  city  and  not  those  from  other  States.  I  be¬ 
lieve  the  exodus  of  the  colored  people  who  are  unemployed  here  to  the 
unoccupied  land  of  the  West  would  be  a  good  thing;  but  I  don’t  think 


414 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


the  exodus  of  the  colored  people  to  Indiana  and  other  States  would  be  a 
good  thing.  I  think  they  do  better  in  North  Carolina  than  in  Indiana. 

Q.  You  think  emigration  to  the  proper  places  would  be  beneficial  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  did  you  enter  the  society  ? — A.  Because  our  idea  was  to  send 
them  from  this  city  to  Kansas  and  the  West ;  because  they  are  paupers 
here  and  have  no  vote  here;  and  in  the  South  they  have  to  take  care  of 
themselves.  It  is  the  carpet  bag  element  among  the  negroes  that 
makes  this  state  of  affairs  in  the  District. of  Columbia,  and  requires 
the  assistance  of  the  government.  They  are  the  people  that  we  have 
to  do  with. 

Q.  You  said  that  Captain  Wall  originated  the  scheme  for  speculation  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir.  So  I  say,  and  I  stick  to  it,  and  I  take  in  the  ex-Governor 
Gleaves,  who  is  in  the  Treasury,  and  I  think  he  is  the  man  who  helped 
him. 

Q.  Are  you  engaged  in  any  emigrant’s  society  now  ? — A.  I  am  out 
of  it. 


By  Senator  Vance  : 

Q.  Don’t  the  colored  people  vote  in  this  city  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Why  not  ? — A.  They  took  the  right  away  from  them. 

Q.  Who  took  it  away  ? — A.  The  government. 

Q.  Under  whose  administration  ? — A.  Under  a  .Republican  form  of 
government. 

Q.  How  long  has  it  been  since  that  was  done  ? — A.  It  was  during 
President  Grant’s  administration. 

Q.  I  can  hardly  think  that  is  so. — A.  I  know  it  was  during  a  Repub¬ 
lican  administration,  and  I  think  it  was  President  Grant’s. 

Q.  What  are  your  politics? — A.  1  am  a  Republican,  sir. 

By  Senator  Windom: 

Q.  Do  white  men  vote  in  this  District? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  discrimination  made  against  colored  men  in  that  re¬ 
spect? — A.  No,  sir. 

On  motion,  the  committee  adjourned  to  10  o’clock  a.  m.,  Monday,  Feb¬ 
ruary  the  23d,  1880. 


NINETEENTH  DAY. 

Washington,  Monday ,  February  23,  1870. 

The  committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment  and  proceeded  with  the 
taking  of  testimony. 

TESTIMONY  OF  G.  W.  KRUZAN. 

G.  WT.  Kruzan  sworn  and  examined  as  follows : 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  State  where  you  live  ? — Answer.  In  Vigo  County,  Indiana. 
Q.  How  far  from  Terre  Haute  ? — A.  Five  miles  from  Terre  Haute. 

Q.  What  is  your  business  ? — A.  I  am  engaged  in  farming. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  there? — A.  All  my  lifetime  ;  I  was  born 
and  raised  there. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


415 


Q.  Have  you  followed  farming  all  your  life  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Has  your  attention  been  called  to  the  introduction  of  colored  peo¬ 
ple  into  our  county  recently  ? — A.  Somewhat,  sir.  We  have  some  in 
our  neighborhood. 

Q.  You  may  state  whether,  in  your  opinion,  there  is  any  demand  for 
labor  of  this  kind  iu  your  county. — A.  I  think  not,  sir.  We  have  al¬ 
ways  been  able  to  get  all  the  labor  we  wanted,  and  at  very  reasonable 
rates. 

Q.  Is  there  much  hiring  done  now  by  the  farmers  in  that  section  ? — * 
A.  No,  sir  ;  not  through  the  winter  mouths  ;  then  there  is  scarcely  any¬ 
thing  done.  I  hire  always  during  the  season  until  the  crop  is  gathered, 
but  none  after  then. 

Q.  There  is  more  hiring  done  through  the  season  than  in  the  winter? 
— A.  There  is  scarcely  any  done  through  the  winter  time. 

Q.  Yrou  say  some  of  these  negroes  have  been  brought  into  your  neigh¬ 
borhood  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  there  is  one  family  in  a  mile  of  my  place  and 
two  colored  men  are  hired  near  there.  * 

Q.  Has  that  family  been  employed  since  its  coming? — A.  Ido  not 
know,  sir;  they  work  part  of  the  time,  I  think. 

Q.  Whose  place  are  they  on  ? — A.  McFeeters’s  place.  One  of  these 
other  men  gets  eight  dollars  per  month  when  he  works,  but  I  do  not 
think  he  works  all  tbe  time.  He  says  it  is  too  cold  out  there  for  these 
Carolina  men.  The  man  for  whom  he  works  says  he  does  not  know 
much  about  working;  that  he  does  not  understand  our  way  of  working 
with  machinery  and  never  saw  it  before. 

Q.  The  most  of  your  farming,  the  putting  in  and  all  that,  is  done  by 
machinery? — A.  Y~es,  sir;  and  the  tending,  too.  We  use  double  culti¬ 
vators,  and  they  never  saw  any  of  them  before. 

Q.  State  to  the  committee  whether  there  has  been  a  great  many  peo¬ 
ple  for  some  years  past  seeking  employment  in  our  county,  and  who 
could  not  get  it? — A.  There  have  been  a  good  many  who  came  through 
there  in  the  winter  months.  I  know  some  who  are  working  for  their 
board.  They  are  men  who  live  there — white  men.  • 

Q.  What  do  the  farmers  generally  pay  for  farm  labor  during  the  crop 
season  ?— A.  From  $13  to  $18,  according  to  the  hand,  and  board,  f  ^ 

Q.  How  much  by  the  day,  with  board  ? — A.  The  farmers  hardly  ever 
hire  them  that  way,  unless  they  get  behind  with  their  work.  Some¬ 
times  then  they  pay  seventy-five  cents  and  a  dollar  a  day.  In  harvest 
time  they  pay  as  high  as  a  dollar  and  a  half.  That  is  what  was  paid 
last  year,  with  board. 

Q  From  your  long  experience  there  do  you  think  it  desirable  for  col¬ 
ored  emigrants,  or  anybody  else  dependent  alone  upon  daily  labor,  to 
come  and  settle  there? — A.  I  think  it  is  not,  sir. 

Q.  There  is  quite  a  population  of  old  settlers  there  in  that  county; 
I  mean  colored  people? — A.  Yres,  sir;  There  are  a  good  many  such. 
Up  above  Terre  Haute  there  is  a  place  three  miles  square,  all  of  them 
colored  settlers,  it  is  called  Lost  Creek,  and  also  Otter  Creek.  I  was 
born  in  Otter  Creek  township. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  the  old  colored  settlers  regard  these  new-com¬ 
ers  ? — A.  They  do  not  like  it,  I  understood. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  any  of  these  emigrants  arriving  there? — A.  I  have 
never  been  to  the  church  in  Terre  Haute  where  they  quartered  them. 

Q.  So  you  are  of  the  opinion  that  even  in  cropping  time  these  peo¬ 
ple  will  not  be  jn  demand,  because  they  do  not  understand  our  system 
of  farming? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  my  opinion  that  they  will  not  suit  us, 
from  what  I  learn  from  the  men  who  hire  them. 


416 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Did  you  ever  see  tlie  circular  put  forth  by  Walker  to  help  on  the 
exodus'? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  remember  ever  to  have  seen  it. 

Q.  Stating  that  he  had  a  demand  for  eighteen  hundred  families? — A. 
No,  sir;  I  do  not  recollect  it. 

By  Senator  Blair: 

Q.  How  many  of  these  colored  men  from  North  Carolina  have  you 
seen? — A.  Ido  not  know  how  many.  I  have  seen  several,  but  how 
many  I  could  not  state. 

Q.  You  know  of  only  three  who  are  located  in  your  vicinity1? — A. 
There  are  one  family  and  two  men.  One  of  the  men  is  hired  out,  and 
he  was  to  get  eight  dollars  a  month  when  he  worked. 

Q.  They  are  all  simply  getting  along  as  best  they  can  until  the  crop 
season  opens? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  talked  much  with  them? — A.  Only  with  those  three,  in 
particular,  and  that  very  little. 

Q.  Your  intercourse  with  them  has  been  very  limited  ? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  a  colored  settlement;  how  near  is  it  to  you? — A. 
Nine  miles,  about. 

Q.  But  you  have  lived  near  to  it? — A.  I  was  born  near  there.  I  lived 
about  three-quarters  of  a  mile  from  it.  I  do  not  think  a  white  person 
has  lived  in  the  settlement.  They  are  all  colored,  and  some  of  them  are 
very  tine  gentlemen. 

Q.  IIow  many  are  there  in  this  settlement  of  colored  peoples? — A.  I 
do  not  know  how  many. 

Q.  Several  hundred,  would  you  suppose,  for  an  estimate? — A.  Yes, 
sir,  several  hundred;  but  J  do  not  know  exactly  the  number. 

Q.  Perhaps  you  could  fix  it  somewhere  between  four,  five,  and  six 
hundred  ? — A.  I  would  think  there  were  three  hundred  in  the  popula¬ 
tion  in  that  settlement. 

The  Chairman.  Yrou  might  estimate  it  by  the  votes.  We  have  in 
our  county  about  four  hundred  colored  votes.  Four  hundred  votes 
would  represent  about  two  thousand  colored  people,  and  the  majority 
of  them  live  in  town.  I  should  say  out  in  Lost  Creek  Township  about 
five  hundred  would  be  enough  to  establish  the  population. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  You  think  there  are  five  hundred  out  there? — A.  Yres,  sir;  be¬ 
tween  five  and  six  hundred. 

Q.  About  how  many  acres  or  square  miles  are  they  scattered  over  ? — 
A.  They  have  three  square  miles,  or  rather  three  miles  square. 

Q.  Then  that  would  be  nine  square  miles? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  they  all  farmers ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  mostly  all  farmers. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  the  township  ? — A.  Lost  Creek  and  Otter 
Township. 

Q.  It  is  not  au  incorporated  township,  is  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  general  condition  of  that  colony  of  colored  people? — 
A.  It  is  a  pretty  well  colony. 

Q.  How  long  have  they  lived  there? — A.  Since  lean  recollect. 

Q.  Have  more  or  less  been  there  since  the  settlement  of  the  State  ? — 
A.  1  don’t  recollect. 

Q.  Have  they  always  been  pretty  well  off? — A.  They  were  not  so 
much  so  at  the  start,  but  they  have  been  buying  out  the  whites  until 
they  own  the  whole  of  it. 

Q.  They  have  been  gradually  excluding  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  II  as  the  colony  been  increasing  in  wealth  and  population  ? — A. 
Yres,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


417 


Q.  Has  it  doubled  itself  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  more  than  that  in  wealth. 

Q.  Has  it  more  than  doubled  in  population? — A.  Since  I  can  recol¬ 
lect  ;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  have  stores  and  other  things  out  there? — A.  No,  sir;  they 
go  to  Terre  Haute  to  trade. 

Q.  How  far  is  that? — A.  Five  miles. 

Q.  Do  they  carry  their  produce  there? — A.  YYs,  sir. 

Q.  Have  they  schools  out  there? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  condition  of  their  schools  ?— A.  I  think  they  have  good 
schools. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  of  the  year  they  have  them  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  About  the  same  as  the  rest  of  the  county? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think 
so  ;  about  the  same. 

Q.  What  is  the  length  of  the  school  period  generally  ? — A.  Some  of 
the  towmships  have  more  schools  than  the  others;  they  run  from  five  to 
nine  months. 

Q.  The  average  would  be  seven  months  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  they  any  religious  privileges  such  as  churches  and  pastors  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  they  have  their  own  churches. 

Q.  What  denominations  are  they? — A.  They  are  Baptist  and  Metho¬ 
dist,  principally. 

Q.  Do  they  have  separate  houses  of  worship  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  them  ?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  they  compare  with  the  white  churches  ? — A.  They  are  not 
so  good,  but  still  they  are  good  churches. 

Q.  How  as  to  the  wealth  among  them;  do  many  own  their  own  farms? 
—A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is,  the  head  of  the  family  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  they  compare  as  farmers  with  the  white  people  ? — A.  Some 
of  them  are  as  good  as  the  wdiite  people’s. 

Q.  About  how  wealthy  is  the  wealthiest  colored  man  in  that  commu¬ 
nity  ? — A.  I  can’t  tell ;  some  of  them  I  should  think  are  worth  twenty- 
five  or  thirty  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  Take  one  who  is  best  off,  or  as  well  off  as  any  of  them ;  what  is  the 
name  of  that  man  ? — A.  I  should  suppose  it  was  Dickson  Stuart. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  him. — A.  I  am  not  so  well  acquainted  with  him,  and 
I  think  probably  he  is  dead  now. 

Q.  How  old  was  he  ? — A.  He  was  about  sixty  years  old. 

Q.  He  was  a  farmer  also  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  he  had  a  very  large  farm,  I 
think. 

Q.  About  how  many  acres? — A.  I  couldn’t  tell  that  because  I  don’t 
know. 

Q.  Was  it  a  valuable  farm? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  worth  a  good  deal 
of  money ;  I  disremember  what  it  was  worth,  but  he  paid  about  as  large 
taxes  as  anybody  in  the  township. 

Q.  White  or  colored  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  I  disremember  how  much  it 
was. 

Q.  You  know  anything  about  his  stock  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Wh  at  wTere  the  products  of  his  farm  ? — A.  Mostly  wheat,  corn,  and 

hay. 

Q.  Did  you  find  a  market  for  it  in  the  Western  States  ? — A.  We  have 
as  good  a  market,  right  there,  as  anywhere. 

Q.  What  do  you  get  for  corn? — A.  We  got  forty  cents  last  year. 

Q.  Is  that  the  average  price  ? — A.  It  is  sometimes  more  and  some¬ 
times  less. 

27  EX 


418 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Do  you  sell  your  wheat  there! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  get  for  wheat? — A.  This  year  we  averaged 
ninety  cents. 

Q.  How  much  help  would  he  require  ou  his  farm  ? — A.  I  don’t  know, 
sir;  I  can  only  tell  you  as  to  the  wealth  among  the  negroes.  It  has 
been  two  years  since  I  moved  away,  but  I  live  iu  about  nine  miles  off 
there  now. 

Q.  Is  this  colored  community  about  as  well  off'  as  the  white  com¬ 
munities? — A.  Some  of  them  are  well  off  and  some  are  not.  They  are 
about  the  same  as  the  white,  generally. 

Q.  Taking  that  community  and  making  them  white  folks,  with  no 
race  distinction,  wouldn’t  you  say  they  are  about  as  well  off  as  any  of 
the  white  communities? — A.  Yes,  sir.  But  they  are  opposed  to  these 
negroes  coming  there  now. 

Q.  I  ask  you  on  the  whole,  disregarding  the  fact  that  they  are 
colored  people,  are  not  they  about  as  well  off  as  any  white  communities 
in  the  State  equally  situated! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  say,  as  a  class,  they  are  opposed  to  the  exodus  ! — A.  I 
heard  so. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  where  those  people  came  from  originally  ? — A. 
No,  sir  ;  I  don’t. 

Q.  No  doubt  that  they  drifted  in  from  the  South  ? — A.  I  don’t  know, 
sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  they  are  the  same  race  as  the  blacks  of  the 
South  ? — A.  There  is  no  doubt  that  they  are  the  same  race. 

Q.  Do  you  not  think  that  if  these  negroes  were  coming  there  now, 
were  subjected  to  the  same  influence  for  two  or  three  generations  as  this 
community  of  which  you  speak,  they  would  come  out  in  the  same  way  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  would  take  two  or  three  generations  to  do  it,  though. 

Q.  You  and  I  understand  that  the  transmission  must  be  gradually  ; 
but  to  what  do  you  attribute  the  difference  between  these  negroes  who 
are  there  and  those  who  are  coming  from  North  Carolina  ? — A.  The 
difference  is  in  their  raising. 

Q.  Under  the  different  institutions  of  the  two  States? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
it  is  the  difference  in  the  way  in  which  they  have  been  brought  up. 

Q.  You  think  the  climate  is  better  in  the  South  than  in  Indiana  ? — A. 
So  they  say.  I  have  never  been  there  in  the  South. 

Q.  And  that  is  what  everybody  says  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  against  the  disadvantages  of  the  climate  these  people  in  that 
colony  up  there  have  done  better  than  those  who  remained  in  the  South  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  in  the  South  they  have  been  in  slavery,  and  never  had 
the  advantages  of  these  colored  people  up  there. 

Q.  The  fact  is  that  way  then? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they  had  these  advan¬ 
tages  and  have  improved  under  it. 


TESTIMONY  OF  S.  W.  KIGNEY. 

S.  W.  Bigney,  sworn  and  examined  as  follows : 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside? — Answer.  I  live  live  miles  and  a 
half  south  of  Terre  Haute,  iu  Vigo  County,  Indiana. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  there? — A.  Between  two  and  three 
years. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  419 

Q.  And  before  that  ? — A.  Then  I  lived  in  Orange  County,  Southern 
Indiana.  I  was  born  and  raised  there. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation  ? — A.  I  try  to  farm. 

Q.  Hdw  long  have  you  been  a  farmer? — A.  All  my  life.  I  was  born 
and  raised  on  a  farm,  and  have  been  following  it  all  my  life. 

Q.  Do  you  hire  farm  laborers  to  assist  you  ? — A.  I  hire  men  all  the 
time  in  the  crop  season.  I  don’t  hire  in  the  winter  time,  after  I  get  my 
grain  in. 

Q.  Is  there  any  demand  there  for  laborers  on  farms  during  the  winter 
time  ? — A.  I  never  saw  any  scarcity  of  labor  there  since  1  have  been 
there. 

Q.  I  ask  you  was  any  demand  in  the  winter  time  for  hired  help  ? — A. 
Very  little,  sir;  I  had  several  applications  this  winter  to  take  men  and 
board  them  to  do  the  chores  around  the  farm. 

Q.  Were  they  from  people  who  lived  there? — xY.  Yes,  sir;  from  people 
who  lived  there  and  from  different  parts  of  the  county  and  State.  They 
were  coming  around  and  looking  for  places  to  stop  until  spring-time,  so 
that  they  could  get  labor. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  reason  for  bringing  these  colored  people  out 
there  at  this  time? — A.  No,  sir.  I  don’t  know  of  any  demand  for  their 
labor. 

Q.  You  had  applications  to  take  some  of  them  ? — A.  I  have  had  ap¬ 
plications  from  white  men.  Two  or  three  days  before  I  left,  a  young 
man  came  to  me  and  said  he  would  stop  with  me  until  crop-time  for  his 
board.  He  was  a  nice  young  man  from  Monroe  County,  Indiana. 

Q.  Is  there  much  of  a  demand  even  in  crop-time  for  hands? — A.  I 
don’t  know  that  there  is.  I  never  had  any  difficulty  in  getting  hands. 

Q.  How  are  these  colored  men  from  North  Carolina  adapted  to  our 
system  of  farm  work  ? — A.  I  can’t  tell  you  because  I  don’t  know.  I 
have  not  seen  those  who  have  got  them  ;  but  I  should  not  think  they 
would  satisfy  us. 

Q.  A  great  deal  of  the  farming  out  there  is  done  by  machinery  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir  ;  a  great  deal  of  it. 

Q.  Have  you  talked  to  any  of  these  people? — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not. 

Q.  Arou  have  not  talked  to  any  of  them  in  Terre  Haute  ? — A.  No,  sir. 
I  live  five  miles  and  a  half  from  there.  I  go  to  town  every  Saturday 
evening  to  do  my  trading;  then  I  go  home  and  have  no  more  to  do  with 
the  town  after  that. 

Q.  Have  you  talked  to  your  neighbors  about  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have 
talked  with  a  great  many  of  them. 

Q.  The  views  you  have  given  us  are  yours  and  those  of  everybody 
else  in  that  county  ? — A.  They  are  of  every  man  I  have  talked  to. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  of  any  demand  among  the  farming  communities 
for  this  class  of  labor  ?— A.  I  have  not. 

Q.  Where  these  emigrants  have  got  an  employment  is  it  not  done 
more  through  charity  than  from  any  need  for  them  ? — A.  I  don’t  know, 
sir ;  I  can’t  say  that. 

Q.  Mr.  Krusance  says  that  Mr.  McFeeters  has  a  family  on  his  place. 
— A.  That  is  Alex.  McFeeter’s  son ;  but  I  have  not  seen  him  to  talk  to 
him. 

Q.  There  is  no  difficulty  out  there  in  getting  help  without  applying  to 
these  people  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  So  it  would  seem  like  this,  they  got  employment  as  charity  instead 
as  necessity  for  their  living? — A.  Yes,  sir.  So  far  as  I  know,  the  men 
who  took  these  emigrants  are  men  who  hardly  ever  pay  their  hands,  or 
pay  them  in  something  that  is  not  worth  much. 


420 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Did  you  ever  see  a  circular  published  by  Walker? — A.  No,  sir;  I 
think  not. 

Q.  In  one  place  in  this  circular  he  says  he  has  a  demand  for  eighteen 
hundred  families.  u  Come  one,  come  all ;  for  the  harvest  is  great  and  the 
laborers  few.77 — A.  I  don’t  think  I  ever  saw  it. 

Q.  If  he  has  a  demand  for  them  you  know  nothing  of  it  ? — A.  No,  sir ; 
I  don’t.  Speaking  of  a  demand  for  help,  there  is  an  exception.  Our 
female  help  is  scarcer  than  our  male  help.  It  may  be  that  a  few  girls 
could  get  employment,  but  our  male  help  is  sufficient. 

Q.  The  want  of  female  help  in  the  country  grows  out  of  the  fact  that 
women  who  work  prefer  to  work  in  town,  does  it  not? — A.  \res,  sir; 
I  think  that  is  my  experience. 

By  Senator  Blair  : 

Q.  Where  were  you  born  ? — A.  In  Orange  County,  Indiana. 

Q.  You  are  a  Democrat  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  Mr.  Krusan  a  Democrat,  also? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  P.  K.  McCROSKEY. 

P.  K.  McCroskey  sworn  and  examined  as  follows  : 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside  ? — Answer.  I  reside  in  Terre  Haute. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  there? — A.  I  was  born  there,  and  never 
lived  anywhere  else. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation? — A.  I  am  a  carpenter  and  builder. 

Q.  Now,  I  will  ask  you  what  are  your  politics  ? — A.  I  have  been  a 
pretty  red  hot  Republican  since  Lincoln’s  first  nomination. 

Q,  And  you  are  still  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Yrou  are  a  carpenter  and  builder  ? — A.  YYs,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  employ  a  good  many  men  ? — A.  Some  years  I  do ;  that 
depends  upon  the  work  that  I  have. 

Q.  What  have  you  to  say  about  the  demand,  and  especially  of  laborers 
in  Indiana? — A.  We  have  an  overplus  of  laborers,  and  have  had  ever 
since  I  lived  there,  in  all  classes  and  branches  of  trade. 

Q.  You  mean  among  mechanics  also  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  mechanics  and 
common  laborers. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  farming  communities  about  there? — A. 
Somewhat. 

Q.  Do  you  make  your  remark  apply  the  same  to  them  as  to  your 
trade  and  business  ? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  there  is  an  overplus  of  farm  laborers  also  ? — A.  I  know 
there  is. 

*  Q.  Has  it  not  been  especially  so  in  your  section  since  1873  ? — A.  Yres, 
sir. 

Q.  Isn’t  true  but  that  for  the  interpose  of  public  and  private  charity 
by  the  town  trustee  and  others  that  there  are  a  good  many  people  there 
who  would  suffer  from  want,  because  they  are  out  of  employment,  and 
who  are  willing  to  work? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  not  it  look  to  you  like  a  wrong  thing  for  people  to  encourage 
these  people  to  come  there? — A.  Yes,  sir;  1  think  it  is. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if,  in  saying  that  do  you  not  reflect  the  sentiments 
of  the  class  of  people  to  whom  you  belong;  that  is,  the  mechanic  and 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


421 


laboring  classes  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  talked  to  many  of  them  ;  some  of 
them  do  not  express  it  publicly,  but  they  do  privately. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  talk  to  this  man  Walker  on  this  subject? — A.  Yes> 
sir  ;  I  did  last  fall. 

Q.  You  have  read  his  circular  and  interview  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  it  he  says  he  has  letters  from  various  parts  of  the  State  asking 
for  farm  hands  and  house  servants  ;  that  he  has  a  demand  for  eighteen 
hundred  families,  and  to  coine  one,  come  all,  for  the  laborers  are  few 
and  the  harvest  is  great.  Do  you  .know  of  any  demand  of  which  he 
speaks  of  in  Vigo  County  ? — A.  I  don’t  know  of  any,  sir. 

Q.  If  he  has  such  a  demand,  it  is  beyond  anything  that  you  know  of 
the  situation  yourself  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  5  and  I  know  that  he  has  tried  to 
get  places  for  those  of  them  that  he  has  got  there;  but  when  they  are 
hired  they  are  kept  two  or  three  days  and  discharged,  because  they 
can’t  do  our  kind  of  work. 

Q.  What  is  their  condition  there  now  ? — A.  I  have  never  talked  about 
them  in  the  street,  but  they  look  like  being  in  great  distress. 

Q.  Are  there  many  of  them  employed? — A.  A  good  many  there  are 
not  employed.  He  made  their  headquarters  at  the  Baptist  Church. 

Q.  Have  you  no  faith  whatever  in  this  statement  of  Walker  ? — A. 
Not  a  particle.  I  don’t  believe  it  is  true. 

Q.  In  talking  to  you,  what  language  did  he  hold  to  you  about  it  ? — A. 
A  day  or  two  after  he  came  back  from  that  convention  down  South  he 
saw  me  and  ran  over  to  meet  me  on  the  street.  He  seemed  to  be  in  a 
ATery  good  way,  and  I  think  he  had  liquor  in  him.  I  asked  him  what 
was  the  matter,  and  he  said  he  had  made  a  good  thing  out  of  his  trip. 
He  said  he  had  made  arrangements  to  turn  the  negro  emigrants  into 
Indiana,  so  as  to  get  ten  thousand  in  there,  and  carry  the  State.  He 
said  he  thought  he  could  get  to  elect  them  in  the  State  ;  that  a 
good  many  of  the  farmers  would  take  them  and  help  the  best  they  could  ; 
but  I  knew  that  we  didn’t  want  any  of  them  in  our  county. 

Q.  Did  he  seem  to  be  very  much  pleased  with  his  project? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  what  seems  to  be  the  sentiment  of  the  old  colored  citizens  of 
the  comity  on  this  subject? — A.  They  are  opposed  to  it. 

Q.  Your  recollection,  Mr.  McCroskey,  goes  back  a  long  ways  in  your 
county  ;  and,  speaking  from  your  knowledge,  tell  us  what  is  your  under¬ 
standing  as  to  the  origin  of  that  colored  settlement  in  our  county? — A. 
There  was  some  of  them  there  before  I  was  born,  and  some  have  come 
there  since;  some  came  there  and  entered  their  own  land  and  others 
came  afterwards  when  the  land  was  cheap  and  bought  and  had  their 
friends  to  come  afterwards.  The  old  ones  are  generally  good  people; 
but  they  have  a  class  of  young  ones  there,  who  are  a  pretty  hard  set, 
and  there  have  been  some  murderers  among  them.  The  most  of  them, 
though,  came  there  a  long  time  ago. 

The  Chairman.  Let  me  state  the  information  I  have.  It  is  that  our 
county  was  settled  in  1811  and  1812  when  Fort  Harrison  was  a  military 
post;  that  the  county  was  settled  by  people  who  came  there  from  Mary¬ 
land,  Virginia,  and  Kentucky,  and  they  brought  many  of  these  colored 
people  with  them,  wTho  were  slaves,  and  who  became  free  when  they  got 
there,  and  when  the  white  people  settled  there  the  colored  people  natur¬ 
ally  settled  with  them  and  made  this  a  colored  settlement. 

The  Witness.  Yres,  sir;  I  think  that  many  of  them  came  from  Ken¬ 
tucky,  perhaps  the  most  of  them,  and  some  from  Virginia  and  Mary¬ 
land.  I  have  talked  with  them,  and  they  say  so,  and  1  find  that  most 
of  those  settlers  were  from  the  Southern  States. 


422 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES 


By  the  Chairman  : 

Q.  These  colored  people  have  been  in  the  main  good  respectable  peo¬ 
ple  f — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  have  acquired  property? — A.  Y"es,  sir. 

Q.  Especially  in  the  country? — A.  Yes,  sir;  more  so  in  the  country 
than  in  the  city. 

Q.  I  don’t  know  that  I  asked  you  if  you  ever  talked  with  these  older 
settlers  on  this  subject? — A.  Not  with  the  oldest.  I  talked  with  some 
of  the  old  men,  but  they  have  not  lived  there  as  long  as  some  of  the 
others.  Some  of  them  say  that  it  is  not  right  for  these  people  to  come 
there,  and  others  are  silent  in  the  matter. 

Q.  This  man  who  carries  the  mail  in  Terre  Haute  was  appointed  upon 
the  recommendation  of  Postmaster  Philbeck? — A.  He  was  first  appointed 
by  Morton  and  then  reappointed  through  the  indorsement  of  Mr.  Phil¬ 
beck. 

Q.  I  need  not  ask  you,  I  suppose,  whether  Mr.  Philbeck  is  cognizant 
of  his  course? — A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

By  Senator  Blair: 

Q.  Did  Walker  say  to  you  he  had  made  his  arrangements  to  get  these 
people  there? — A.  He  didn’t  say.  He  said  he  was  going  to  get  enough 
to  carry  the  State  against  the  Democrats. 

Q.  What  sort  of  a  man  is  Walker? — A.  He  is  a  big,  important  sort 
of  a  nigger,  who  thinks  he  knows  it  all. 

And  you  say  he  was  in  liquor  that  day  ? — A.  I  think  he  had  some 
liquor  on  board,  though  he  may  not. 

Q.  Have  you  repeated  all  that  he  said  ? — A.  He  said  more,  but  I  can’t 
remember  it.  I  just  made  up  my  mind  from  what  he  said  that  he  was 
trying  to  shoulder  the  responsibility  of  the  whole  thing. 

Q.  lrou  had  no  more  talks  with  him  about  it? — A.  Never  since  then. 

Q.  How  many  of  these  people  has  he  brought  in  there? — A.  He  must 
have  brought  two  or  three  hundred  into  Terre  Haute.  I  don’t  know 
exactly  how  many,  but  there  were  two  or  three  lots. 

Q.  Were  they  men,  women,  and  children  together  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I 
think  a  lot  came  there  before  I  came  away,  but  I  don’t  know  how  many. 

Q.  What  has  become  of  them  ? — A.  I  seen  some  of  them  about  the 
streets,  and  T  see  it  stated  that  they  were  carried  in  the  basement  of  the 
colored  church  and  fed  there. 

Q.  Havn’t  the  most  of  them  been  distributed  about  through  the  coun¬ 
try? — A.  A  good  many  of  them  have. 

Q.  You  speak  of  this  colored  settlement  there,  in  your  country.  Now, 
if  these  same  colored  people,  instead  of  stopping  in  Indiana  where  there 
seems  to  be  no  surplus  work,  they  find  their  way  to  other  parts  of  the 
country  where  land  is  cheap  and  where  they  could  grow  up  as  this  col¬ 
ony  has  done,  do  you  see  any  reason  why  they  should  not  succeed  the 
same  as  these  Indiana  negroes  have  done? — A.  Y"es,  sir;  I  see  the  rea¬ 
son  why  the  older  negroes  should  not,  and  its  cause  is  that  they  don’t 
understand  our  system  of  labor.  The  younger  ones  might  do  so,  but 
still  they  would  have  to  go  where  land  is  cheap  and  just  as  good  as  that 
in  Indiana. 

Q.  Still  this  colony  might  do  so  elsewhere  and  grow  up  and  become 
prosperous  and  happy  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  people  of  Indiana  don’t  object  to  that  being  done.  Do  they  ? — 
A.  No,  sir;  we  have  more  than  we  want  of  this  class  of  people  and 
would  rather  they  would  not  stop  with  us. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


423 


Q.  And  that  is  the  general  sentiment  of  your  people  without  regard 
to  party  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  don’t  know  anything  about  the  party  feeling. 

Q.  If  it  is  the  general  sentiment,  it  is  irrespective  of  party1? — A.  I 
don’t  think  any  man  there,  who  would  speak  his  sentiments,  is  in  favor 
of  their  coming.  Perhaps  a  man  might  go  in  a  place  where  he  would 
not  want  to  say  so;  but  I  don’t  think  there  is  any  demand  for  them 
there. 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  there  is  no  demand  for  any  kind  of  laborer, 
white  or  black  ? — A.  We  have  all  we  need. 

Q.  Do  you  think  there  is  any  prejudice  against  them  on  account  of 
their  color? — A.  No ,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  if  they  were  needed  at  all,  the  people  would  hire 
them  as  they  do  the  whites  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  if  they  do  the  same  work, 
but  they  would  not  discharge  a  white  man  in  order  to  hire  a  negro,  or 
hire  a  negro  in  preference,  but  if  they  needed  their  work  they  would 
hire  them. 


TESTIMONY  OF  WILLIAM  M.  STEVENSON. 

William  M.  Stevenson  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside  ? — Answer.  Terre  Haute,  Vigo  County, 
Indiana. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  there? — A.  I  have  lived  there  since 
1SG1,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  reside  before  that  ? — A.  I  resided  in  an  adjoining 
county  for  several  years.  I  came  to  Indiana  from  Kentucky  in  1853. 

Q.  You  are  by  profession  a  physician? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  my  pro¬ 
fession. 

Q.  You  are  employed,  I  believe,  by  the  county  of  Vigo  to  attend  to 
the  poor  of  the  county  ? — A.  Well,  sir,  I  have  charge  of  the  penitentiary 
at  Terre  Haute,  and  also  of  a  kind  of  infirmary.  I  have  had  that  for 
three  years — the  medical  and  surgical  department  of  it. 

Q.  Your  profession  throws  you  a  great  deal  among  the  poor  people? — 
A.  A  great  deal,  sir. 

Q.  Tell  us  what  you  think  of  this  immigration  of  North  Carolina 
negroes  into  Indiana,  from  what  you  have  seen  of  the  condition  of 
affairs  there  and  the  demand  for  labor. — A.  The  supply  of  unskilled 
labor  in  our  city  and  county  has  been  largely  in  excess  of  the  demand, 
and  there  is  a  great  deal  of  destitution  in  the  city  among  men  of  fam¬ 
ilies,  and  among  those  who  become  county  charges  and  apply  for  relief. 
There  are  men  of  unskilled  labor  wTho  have  lived  for  a  long  time  in  the 
county,  and  they  have  become  county  charges  simply  because  they  can¬ 
not  get  employment.  Some  of  them  say  they  can  get  a  day’s  work  or 
two  days’  work,  but  the  result  is  that  when  they  get  sick  they  become 
county  charges,  and  I  have  to  have  assistance  both  medical  and  other¬ 
wise  through  the  charity  of  the  county  to  aid  them  and  attend  to  them. 
There  is  a  large  proportion  of  the  colored  population  of  the  city  of  Terre 
Haute  who  might  be  classed  among  the  pauper  element  of  the  city. 
They  are  people  who  have  been  there  ever  since  I  knew  the  town. 
There  are  a  few  wrell-to-do  colored  people  in  this  population,  and  some 
have  done  very  well  there.  As  to  the  demand  for  labor,  there  are  peo¬ 
ple  of  my  acquaintance  in  the  county — and  I  am  pretty  well  acquainted 


424  NEGRO  EXODUS  *  ROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 

throughout  the  county — who  say  that  there  is  an  excess  of  farm  labor 
in  the  county.  The  farmers  generally  out  there  do  not  carry  large- 
farms,  and  can  usually  do  their  own  work,  except  in  the  cropping  sea¬ 
son,  when  they  are  putting  in  their  grain  and  when  they  are  harvesting. 
There  is  generally  very  little  hiring  among  the  farmers.  I  know  a  few 
instances  of  old  residents  of  the  county  working  for  their  board,  in  ex¬ 
pectation  of  getting  employment  in  the  spring,  when  the  season  opens. 
Our  town  is  very  full  of  destitute  women,  widows  and  others,  whose 
subsistence  comes  from  daily  labor,  such  as  washing  and  things  of  that 
kind.  Many  of  them  are  in  the  county  poor-house  as  the  recipients  of 
public  charity.  I  think  there  are  some  ten  or  fifteen  children  at  the 
county  poor-house  who  are  bright,  healthy-looking  children,  and  who 
are  waiting  for  homes;  and  applications  and  notices  of  the  fact  have 
been  made  to  the  people,  but  they  are  a  little  slow  about  taking  them. 

Q.  Is  there  any  possible  necessity  in  the  nature  of  things  for  this 
immigration  that  has  struck  our  county  ? — A.  There  is  no  demand  for 
them  from  the  labor  standpoint.  They  are  not  needed  and  are  very 
much  objected  to  on  account  of  their  impoverished  circumstances,  and 
they  are  objected  to  particularly  by  the  tax  payers.  The  only  demand 
I  know  for  them  is  that  they  are  voters. 

Q.  Have  you  talked  with  any  of  those  that  have  arrived  there? — A. 
I  visited  them  once  down  at  the  church,  but  did  not  have  many  inter¬ 
views  with  them ;  I  went>to  look  in  on  them  at  the  church,  and  I  found 
a  very  destitute  batch  there.  They  were  lying  there,  perfectly  helpless ; 
did  not  know  where  to  go  or  what  to  do,  or  where  they  were  expected 
to  go;  and  a  committee,  consisting  of  Walker  and  Bagby,  were  making 
efforts  to  get  employment  for  them.  They  rented  a  number  of  little 
shanties  about  the  city  to  put  them  in.  I  visited  one  of  them,  which 
was  not  as  big  as  this  room,  and  there  were  fifteen  persons  in  there — 
children  of  all  ages,  from  fifteen  years  old  down  to  the  prospect  of  chil¬ 
dren.  They  were  in  an  abject  state  of  destitution. 

Q.  How  were  they  off  for  clothing? — A.  They  were  very  ragged  and 
wretched,  and  the  women  were  very  poorly  clad. 

Q.  How  was  that  batch  fed  there  in  the  church  ? — A.  I  know  they 
were  fed  by  contributions  from  that  committee.  They  have  a  reception 
committee,  of  which  Walker  is  president  and  Elbert  vice-president.  I 
am  acquainted  with  Elbert,  but  with  Walker  I  am  not.  These  people 
have  been  fed  by  charitable  contributions  from  their  own  class  of  citi¬ 
zens  and  by  the  contributions  of  a  few  sympathizing  Republican  friends 
of  the  cause. 

Labor  is  hard  to  get,  although  they  have  made  applications  to  every¬ 
body  likely  to  need  them.  One  of  my  Democratic  friends  wanted  some, 
but  he  did  not  want  any  minors  among  them.  A  gentleman  from  near 
the  State  line,  a  good  farmer,  Mr.  Elliott,  wanted  several  persons  on  his 
farm,  women  and  children,  and  when  they  found  that  he  was  over  the 
line  and  out  of  the  State,  they  would  not  go  to  him,  although  he  is  a 
Republican. 

Q.  What  was  their  reason  for  not  going  beyond  the  State  line  ? — A. 
They  said  that  was  not  the  condition  of  their  contract  when  they  left 
North  Carolina.  They  understood  that  they  were  to  stay  in  Indiana, 
and  they  did  not  propose  to  leave  there. 

Q.  How  is  this  immigration  regarded  by  the  settled  colored  people  of 
our  county? — A.  The  colored  population  is  opposed  to  their  immigra¬ 
tion.  Stewart,  Malone,  Harris,  Underwood,  and  other  well-to-do  colored 
people  oppose  it,  because  they  are  tax-payers,  and  they  consider  these 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


425 


people  an  additional  tax  on  the  county  ;  and  on  that  account  they  have 
opposed  it  vigorously. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  Walker’s  statement  read  here,  in  which  he  stated 
that  he  had  a  demand  for  eighteen  hundred  families  of  them? — A.  Yes,, 
sir  ;  I  have  read  it,  and  I  have  heard  what  Walker  said  about  it. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  the  probability  of  its  being  true  ? — A.  It  is  not  true 
in  any  particular.  There  is  no  demand  whatever  for  laborers  there. 
There  is  no  demand  for  skilled  labor,  and  certainly  no  demand  for  un¬ 
skilled  labor.  There  is  a  large  excess  in  the  supply  over  the  demand  ; 
and  if  Mr.  Walker  would  give  his  attention  to  it  and  to  nothing  else,  he 
could  not  find  situations  for  eighteen  hundred  families  in  Vigo  and  Clay 
Counties  both  put  together.  I  know  that  the  pauper  people  there,  such 
as  servant  girls  and  people  who  do  laundry  work,  have  great  difficulty 
in  getting  work  to  do. 

Q.  How  many  Bepublican  newspapers  are  printed  in  Terre  Haute?-— 
A.  There  are  three,  I  believe — The  Express,  The  Courier,  and  The  Mail. 

Q.  Have  you  not  seen  any  of  them  condemning  this  outrageous  con¬ 
duct  of  Walker? — A.  I  never  have.  I  have  seen  an  appeal  in  The  Ex¬ 
press  calling  for  contributions  to  aid  these  people;  asking  for  old  clothes 
and  food  for  those  who  were  in  the  church. 

Q.  Did  you  see  published,  along  with  Walker’s  proclamation,  this  ap¬ 
peal  for  aid  that  was  issued  by  a  meeting  of  colored  people  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir  ;  that  is  the  appeal  that  I  was  referring  to. 

Q.  It  struck  you  rather  strangely,  did  it  not,  that  such  an  appeal  should 
have  to  be  made  if  there  was  a  demand  for  eighteen  hundred  families 
in  Yigo  County  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  thought  if  the  demand  was  so  great 
and  the  laborers  so  few,  there  certainly  would  not  be  any  necessity  for 
such  an  appeal.  There  was  one  of  these  darkies  who  was  so  much  dis¬ 
couraged  and  disgusted  that  he  went  back  home.  He  relieved  his  step¬ 
father  of  forty-six  dollars,  and  with  it  went  back  to  North  Carolina. 

Q.  How  did  he  relieve  him  of  it? — A.  He  relieved  him  of  it  by  steal¬ 
ing  it.  His  step-father  was  left  in  the  lurch,  and  is  now  on  the  county. 

By  Mr.  Blair  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  person  except  this  thief  that  has  gone 
back?— A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  he  seemed  to  find  North  Carolina  better  for  him  than  Indi¬ 
ana  ? — A.  Yes, [sir ;  but  there  were  three  others  who  said  that  they  would 
go  back  if  they*  could  get  the  money. 

Q.  And  they  did  not  have  any  step-fathers  to  steal  from  ? — A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  population  of  your  city? — A.  About  twenty-six  thou¬ 
sand,  may  be;  I  cannot  be  certain,  but  I  judge  that  from  the  last  Direc¬ 
tory  that  was  published. 

On  motion  the  committee  stood  adjourned,  subject  to  the  call  of  the 
chairman. 


TESTIMONY  OF  T.  C.  GBOOMES. 

T.  C.  Groomes  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  Chairman  : 

Question.  You  may  state  where  you  live. — Answer.  At  Greeucastle, 
Putnam  County. 

Q.  What  are  you  engaged  in  there? — A.  Practicing  law. 


426 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  Dow  long  have  you  lived  there  ? — A.  Forty  years.  1  was  born 
and  raised  there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  George  Langsdale,  the  editor  of  the  Greencastle 
Banner? — A.  I  am  very  well  acquainted  with  him. 

Q.  What  official  position  does  he  occupy  there  ? — A.  Postmaster. 

Q.  How  large  a  place  is  Greencastle  ? — A.  We  have  about  six  thou¬ 
sand  people. 

Q.  It  is  the  site  of  Asbury  University  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  county  seat  of  Putnam  County  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  large  and  wealthy  county  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  has  Langsdale  been  postmaster? — A.  He  is  in  his  sec¬ 
ond  term  now. 

Q.  IJe  was  appointed  first  by  President  Grant? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  I 
think  his  second  term  began  last  July. 

Q.  Yrou  say  he  is  the  editor  of  the  Greencastle  Banner  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  its  politics  ? — A.  Republican.  It  is  a  Republican  organ 
for  that  county. 

Q.  Have  you  got  a  file  of  that  paper  with  you  ? — A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  cau,  please  turn  to  the  editorial  of  that  paper  of  November 
28,  1878. 

Q.  I  will  ask  whether  there  had  been  an  election  that  fall  in  Indiana 
in  which  the  Republicans  were  badly  beaten  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  on  the  sec¬ 
ond  Tuesday  in  October. 

Q.  What  was  the  result? — A.  The  entire  Democratic  ticket  in  the 
county  was  elected  except  the  county  treasurer. 

Q.  What  was  the  result  in  the  State? — A.  The  State  went  Demo- 
•  cratic. 

Q.  By  some  fourteen  or  fifteen  thousand,  didn’t  it  ? — A.  I  think  it 
was  up  in  the  thousands  somewhere. 

Q.  Can  you  recall  for  a  moment  what  General  Hanson’s  majority 
was  ? — A.  Thirteen  or  fourteen  thousand. 

Q.  They  also  elected  a  Democratic  legislature  by  a  large  majority  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  now  turn  to  the  article  of  December  12,  1878,  headed 
“Will  they  come  north  ?”  and  read  it  ? 

On  motion  the  committee  adjourned  to  Friday,  February  6,  at  10 
o’clock  a.  in. 


TESTIMONY  OF  T.  C.  GROOMES. 

T.  C.  Groomes  sworn  and  examined: 

By  the  Chairman 

Question.  Mr.  Groomes,  on  Wednesday  you  were  proceeding  at  my 
request  to  lay  before  the  committee  certain  matters  in  the  Greencastle 
Banner;  I  will  ask  you  to  turn  to  the  article  of  January  23,  1879? — 
Answer.  That  is  the  article  that  authorizes  the  resolution  of  Senator 
Windom. 

Q.  I  will  read  the  article  (reading.) 

[January  23,  1879,  Banner.] 

The  proposition  of  the  Banner  that  the  colored  men  of  the  South  emigrate  to  the 
North,  where  their  political  freedom  is  secure,  has  been  adopted  by  Senator  Windom, 
who,  on  the  16th  instant,  introduced  the  following  resolution  into  the  United  States 
Senate : 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


427 


“ Resolved ,  That  with  a  view  to  the  peaceful  adjustment  of  all  questions  relating 
suffrage,  to  the  effectual  enforcement  of  Constitutional  and  national  rights,  and  to  the 
promotion  of  the  best  interest  of  the  whole  country  by  the  elimination  of  sectionalism 
from  politics,  a  committee  of  seven  Senators  be  appointed  by  the  chair  and  charged 
with  the  duty  of  inquiring  as  to  the  expediency  and  practicability  of  encouraging  and 
promoting  by  all  just  and  proper  methods  the  partial  migration  of  colored  persons  from 
those  States  and  Congressional  districts  where  they  are  not  allowed  to  freely  and  peace¬ 
fully  exercise  and  enjoy  their  Constitutional  rights  as  American  citizens,  into  sucb 
States  as  may  desire  to  receive  them,  and  will  protect  them  in  the  said  rights,  or 
into  such  Territory  or  Territories  of  the  United  States  as  may  be  provided  for  their  use 
and  occupation;  and  if  the  said  committee  shall  deem  such  migration  expedient  and 
practicable,  that  they  report,  by  bill  or  otherwise,  what  in  their  judgment  is  the  most 
effective  method  of  accomplishing  that  object;  and  that  the  said  committee  have  leave 
to  sit  during  recess.,? 

The  resolution  was  laid  on  the  table  for  the  present,  at  the  request  of  Mr.  Windom, 
and  he  gave  notice  that  he  would  call  it  up  soon  and  submit  some  remarks.  The  time 
of  the  Senate  during  which  it  will  be  under  Republican  control,  is  so  short,  that  prob¬ 
ably  nothing  can  be  done  in  the  way  suggested  by  the  resolution,  but  it  will  serve  to 
call  the  attention  of  the  country  to  the  subject,  and  promote  the  emigration  of  Repub¬ 
licans  from  the  terrorized  districts  of  the  South  to  the  free  North. 

I)o  yon  recognize  this  as  matter  from  the  Greencastle  Banner? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  With  your  note? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  made  it. 

Q.  Please  read  it. 

The  witness  read  as  follows: 

They,  the  negroes,  can  render  the  country  some  service,  &c. 

Q.  Turn  to  the  issue  of  March  20,  1879. 

The  Witness  read  as  follows  : 

There  is  great  alarm  in  the  South  at  the  prospect  of  losing  'the  colored  laborers, 
who  are  packing  up  their  beds  and  walking  off  to  the  North,  Ac. 

Q.  Now  read  from  the  issue  of  August  21,  1879,  the  article  headed 
“  To  farmers.” 

Q.  You  stated  to  the  committee  that  you  were  born  and  raised  in 
Greencastle  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  made  yourself  familiar  to  any  extent  with  the  condition 
of  these  emigrant  folks  ?— A.  lain  about  the  court-house  frequently, 
and  while  there  I  have  seen  batches  of  three,  four,  to  six  and  ten 
round  there  at  the  clerk’s  office  and  at  the  sheriff’s  office.  I  think  about 
the  first  batch  I  saw  I  went  into  the  clerk’s  office,  and  there  were  prob¬ 
ably  half  a  dozen  in  there. 

Q.  What  were  they  wanting? — A.  They  were  asking  some  one  to 
take  an  interest  in  their  behalf  and  get  them  back  to  North  Carolina. 
They  said  they  had  not  found  things  as  they  were  represented. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  them  say  so? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  I  heard  four  of 
them. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  these  folks  talking  that  way  at  other  times? — 
A.  I  have  heard  others  talk  that  way.  That  same  party  did  get  away, 
I  think — those  four. 

Q.  It  costs  them  more  to  get  away  than  it  does  to  get  there,  does  it 
not? — A.  Yes,  sir;  from  what  they  said. 

Q.  About  twice  as  much  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  I  think  I  was  in  the  sher¬ 
iff’s  office  when  some  women  were  in  there.  I  think  this  Chloe  Smith 
was  in  there  and  four  or  five  others.  There  were  one  or  two  women 
whose  husbands  were  still  in  North  Carolina. 

Q.  What  were  they  wanting  ? — A.  She  was  wanting  Mr.  Allen  or  the 
sheriff  to  write  to  these  parties  they  had  formerly  lived  with  for  money 
to  return  home  on.  They  had  failed  to  find  places  to  work.  I  never 
conversed  with  one  of  them.  I  do  not  know  that  I  ever  spoke  to  one 
of  them. 


428 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  You  know  of  no  effort  to  persuade  them  to  go  home? — A.  Yo,  sir. 

Q.  Who  was  the  local  correspondent  of  the  Cincinnati  Gazette,  at 
Greencastle? — A.  The  rumor  is  that  it  is  young  Darnell,  assistant  post¬ 
master  or  deputy  postmaster  at  Greencastle. 

Q.  He  is  in  Langsd ale’s  employ,  is  he  not  ? — A.  He  is  his  deputy. 

Q.  Now,  having  lived  there  all  your  life,  do  you  know  of  any  call  for 
this  class  of  people  there? — A.  Yo,  sir;  we  have  no  demand  for  addi¬ 
tional  labor.  If  there  is  any  such  demand  it  is  of  very  recent  date.  In 
fact,  I  have  kept  that  class  of  people  in  my  employment,  and  the  resi¬ 
dent  negroes  there  complain  very  bitterly  against  these  new-comers. 

Q.  Why  is  that? — A.  They  say  it  will  cut  down  wages  and  increase 
the  number  of  laborers. 

Q.  Since  the  panic  and  these  hard  times  is  it  not  true,  notoriously  so, 
that  many  people  are  out  of  work  in  that  section  of  the  country  ? — A. 
AYs,  sir.  In  our  county  1  think  I  can  find  them,  plenty  of  them,  who  do  * 
not  get  work  all  the  time.  In  the  harvest  time  there  is  some  little  de¬ 
mand. 

Q.  How  long  does  that  last;  two  weeks? — A.  Yes,  sir,  probably 
four;  that  is,  the  hay  season  and  the  wheat  season. 

By  Mr.  Windom  : 

Q.  What  is  your  business  ? — A.  Practicing  law. 

Q.  What  political  party  are  you  with  ? — A.  The  Democratic  party. 

Q.  What  have  you  heard  of  the  efforts  to  intimidate  people  from  em¬ 
ploying  these  emigrants? — A.  Yothing, 

Q.  Yothing  whatever  ? — A.  Yo,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  that  house  being  burned  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  heard 
of  two  that  were  burned,  and  one  that  had  a  tree  felled  across  it. 

Q.  They  were  under  preparation  at  the  time  for  colored  tenants  ? — A. 
One  was  up  in  Wilson’s,  in  Russell  township;  it  was  being  prepared  by 
the  tenant  himself. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  these  attempts  made  at  Shelby ville  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  I  heard  of  it  through  the  newspapers.  I  heard  that  the  people 
there  were  opposed  to  their  coming. 

Q.  What  effect  do  you  think  those  things  would  have  on  the  demand 
for  their  labor,  that  houses  being  prepared  for  them  were  burned  down  ? — 
A.  I  do  not  think  it  will  increase  it.  The  impression  is  that  these  Re¬ 
publicans  burned  it  down  themselves.  Up  there  they  oppose  it,  but  the 
Republicans  in  our  locality  generally  favor  it. 

Q.  Are  the  Republicans  up  there  worse  against  the  negroes  than 
against  the  Democrats  ? — A.  Yo,  sir ;  I  do  not  say  that.  The  opposi¬ 
tion  in  that  party  comes  from  that  township.  It  is  a  strong  Republican 
township,  and  there  are  not  many  Democrats  up  there.  We  pay  no 
particular  attention  to  it  during  election  time,  and  it  is  always  very 
quiet. 

Q.  There  are  Democrats  in  that  vicinity,  though? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  not 
in  the  immediate  vicinity,  but  within  four  or  five  miles. 

Q.  Who  told  you  that  the  Republicans  did  it  ? — A.  It  is  common  talk 
and  public,  that  when  the  grand  jury  meets  they  will  fasten  it  on  some 
of  the  Republicans. 

Q.  They  think  an  investigation  of  it  ought  to  be  made  ? — A.  AYs, 
sir. 

Q.  And  you  will  attempt  to  fasten  it  on  the  Republicans? — A.  We 
will  attempt  to  fasten  it  on  the  guilty  ones. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  that  impression  is  sought  to  be  made  by  mem¬ 
bers  of  your  party  in  order  to  avoid  the  odium  of  burning  houses  over 
the  heads  of  negro  emigrants? — A.  Yo,  sir. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


429 


Q.  Do  you  not  believe  it  ? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  State  who  you  heard  say  that. — A.  I  do  not  know  who. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  you  heard  anybody  say  it? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  not  an  impression  born  of  your  own  imagination  that  you 
•have? — A.  No,  sir;  they  were  not  created  in  that  way  in  my  mind. 

Q.  Can  you  say  who  said  it  to  you? — A.  Ho,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  hear  it? — A.  At  home,  in  Greencastle. 

Q.  It  is  not  talked  of  very  much,  is  it? — A.  I  cauuot  say  how  much. 

Q.  How  many  people  did  you  hear  say  it? — A.  I  do  not  know  that  I 
beard  it  more  than  once.  I  cannot  state  who  was  present,  or  what  was 
said  particularly. 

Q.  You  heard  somebody  say  so  that  made  au  impression  on  your 
mind? — A.  Well,  I  thought  it  was  more  likely  among  Republicans  than 
anybody  else,  for  the  reason  that  most  of  them  there  were  opposed  to 
these  negroes. 

Q.  Who  were  they  who  were  opposed  to  them  ? — A.  I  cannot  say. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any  of  them? — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  I  am  not 
able,  at  this  time,  to  enumerate  them,  or  particularize  them. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  Republicans  making  threats  against  them  ? — 
A.  No,  sir ;  I  never  heard  of  a  threat  from  a  Republican  ora  Democrat 
in  the  county.  For  political  reasons  some  of  them  might  have  done  so, 
but  I  do  not  know  it. 

Q.  Y"ou  saw  these  people  in  the  sheriff’s  office,  you  say  ? — A.  YYs,  sir; 
I  was  there  when  they  were  there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  they  got  there? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  at  whose  invitation  they  wrere  there? — A.  I  do  not 
know.  I  may  have  heard  that  they  were  there  to  get  a  letter  written. 

Q.  Was  Mr.  Lewman  there  at  the  time? — A.  Mr.  Lewmau  was  not 
in  there,  but  Mr.  Allen,  his  deputy,  was  writing  a  letter  for  Chloe 
Smith,  I  think. 

Q.  Then  Allen  wrote  that  letter  that  was  read  here  this  morning? — 
A.  I  do  not  know,  sir.  I  did  not  read  it. 

Q.  Who  was  it  to  ? — A.  It  was  to  some  person  in  North  Carolina. 
The  letter  that  was  read  here  this  morning  sounds  familiar,  though. 
She  was  dictating  what  she  wanted  to  express. 

Q.  So  her  feelings  were  expressed  through  Mr.  Allen? — A.  Yes,  sir; 
I  think  so. 

Q.  Who  was  the  correspondent  of  the  Cincinnati  Gazette? — A.  I  say 
the  rumor  is  that  it  is  Mr.  Darnell. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a  Mr.  Moore  who  is  there  from  Cincinnati  ? — A.  No, 
sir;  I  never  heard  of  him. 

Q.  What  was  it  you  heard  these  people  say  about  their  condition  ? — 
A.  They  said  they  were  disappointed  in  every  way.  They  found  no 
work,  nor  the  wages  as  represented  in  the  circulars  and  by  the  people 
who  came  there  to  North  Carolina. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  came  to  your  county  ? — A.  I  have  no  definite 
idea  of  the  number.  I  have  heard  it  estimated  at  two  hundred  and 
fifty  men,  women,  and  children.  My  impression  is  there  were  seventy- 
five  voters  who  came  into  that  county.  The  first  batch,  I  think,  were 
all  men.  Numbers  of  them  got  places,  and  some  did  not.  Some  went 
to  Brazil,  and  some  to  Indianapolis.  Some  went  to  Hendricks  County, 
and  some  to  Plainfield.  I  think  that  Mr.  Hanna  took  some  of  them 
there. 

Q.  How  many  did  not  find  employment? — A.  I  do  not  know,  but  you 
can  see  them  standing  about  the  streets  every  day,  eight  or  ten  in  a 
bunch. 


430 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


Q.  You  do  not  know  liow  many  failed  to  get  work? — A.  No,  sir;  only 
that  I  heard  them  say  they  did  not.  There  is  a  family  I  have  that  lives 
on  my  place.  The  man  told  me  that  a  committee  of  white  gentlemen 
came' to  his  house,  and  wanted  to  arrange  to  have  him  take  two  or  three 
women  and  keep  them,  but  he  declined  to  do  it. 

Q.  You  speak  of  hard  times  since  the  panic  of  1873.  Has  that  not 
been  true  all  over  the  country? — A.  1  think  so. 

Q.  Not  more  so  in  Indiana  than  elsewhere  ? — A.  I  do  not  know,  except 
as  to  my  own  county.  I  know  of  people  who  own  land  who  do  not 
cultivate  as  much  as  they  did  before,  and  they  make  more  money  by  not 
cultivating  it. 

Q.  In  what  way? — A.  By  grazing  it.  They  can  purchase  corn  in 
Illinois  and  ship  it  in  there  for  less  than  they  can  grow  it. 


EXHIBIT  A. 

(Refers  to  Cromwell’s  testimony.) 

Last  July  we  held  a  State  conference ;  that  is,  I  mean  the  delegates,  of  whom  I  was 
one.  This  conference  was  held  in  the  city  of  Houston  for  the  purpose  of  consulting 
the  best  steps  to  be  taken  with  regard  to  the  migration  of  the  colored  people,  and 
also  to  their  future  elevation.  I  had  the  honor  of  being  elected  one  of  the  commis¬ 
sioners  on  migration  from  the  sixth  Congressional  district.  I  have  been  traveling 
over  the  counties  of  my  district  ever  since,  lecturing  to  my  people.  My  subjects  are 
political,  financial,  educational,  social,  moral,  and  religious  culture.  Our  people,  my 
friend,  need  teaching  more  than  they  do  emigration.  I  am  sorry  to  have  to  say  it,  but 
it  is  the  truth  concerning  them.  I  make  it  my  business,  as  commissioner,  to  go  into 
each  one  of  the  counties  where  there  is  a  large  portion  of  colored  people  and  lecture  to 
them  in  the  court-house  I  tell  the  white  people  what  we  want,  and  our  people  what 
they  must  do  for  themselves ;  that  they  must  reform,  and  must  do  it  peaceably.  I 
never  pick  or  choose  committees  to  go  to  their  assistance.  I  have  been  in  some  of  the 
most  desperate  counties  in  the  State.  I  tell  the  white  men  what  the  colored  men  de¬ 
sire,  but  at  the  same  time  I  don’t  forget  to  tell  my  race  that  their  negligence,  coward¬ 
ice,  and  dissipation  are  what  has  brought  the  colored  people  as  low  as  they  are,  and 
unless  they  reform  themselves  they  can  never  command  respect  here  or  in  the  North. 
Education,  wrealtli,  and  independence  are  what  the  colored  man  needs,  and  these  must 
be  brought  about  by  virtuous  cultivation.  I  am  as  poor  as  any  man  can  be,  and  yet 
I  was  elected  commissioner  of  this  migration.  I  was  elected  without  a  dollar  towrork 
with,  so  I  had  to  do  the  best  I  could  without  money,  and  depend  entirely  upon  the 
people,  which  does  not  suit  the  preachers.  Since  last  July  I  have  gone  through  the 
following  counties,  and  received  the  following  amounts  from  each  county :  Hays 
County.  $4.40 ;  Caldwell  County,  $10.50 ;  Guadalupe  County,  $8.90;  Comal  County, 
$3.20;  Blanco  County,  $1.50;  Kendall  County,  $2.75;  Kerr  County,  $2.55;  Wilson 
County,  $0.85 ;  Gonzales  County,  $14.35;  De  Witt  County,  $20.95;  Victoria  County 
$21.20;  Goliad  County,  $13.40 ;  the  total  amounting  to  $122.55.  In  many  counties  I 
have  walked  from  thirty  to  forty  miles,  because  the  people  were  so  poor  they  could 
not  help  me.  But  what  encourages  me  to  go  on  is  that  at  the  present  time  my  work 
is  appreciated  very  highly  by  my  people.  Everywhere  I  go  they  say  it  makes  them 
feel  glad  and  proud  to  see  that  the  day  has  come  when  they  have  men  with  the 
courage  and  ability  to  advocate  their  cause  before  the  white  people,  and  also  to  teach 
them  things  that  they  have  not  heretofore  known,  but  must  learn  in  order  to  rise  to 
success  and  command  respect. 

Now,  sir,  I  think  if  we  had  good,  able,  and  courageous  men  to  advocate  the  cause 
of  our  people  much  good  could  be  done,  but  it  takes  money.  Such  men  must  be  paid 
a  salary.  If  we  are  expected  to  do  a  great  work  we  ought  to  get  something  for  our 
labor.  Is  this  not  so  ?  I  tell  you,  my  friend,  this  is  no  child’s  play — this  work  we 
have  to  perform.  But  I  am,  by  the  help  of  God,  trying  to  do  all  I  can  for  my  people. 
The  white  people  think  we  are  getting  paid  by  the  government,  but  we  do  not  get  a 
cent  from  the  government. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES.  431 


Please  write  to  me  at  Indianola,  Calhoun  County,  Texas.  Send  me  a  copy  of  the 
proceedings  of  the  Nashville  conference,  and  also  a  copy  of  your  paper. 

I  remain  your  humble  servant, 


G.  M.  TROUSDAIR, 

Commissioner  on  Migration,  Sixth  Congressional  District. 


J.  W.  Cromwell,  Esq., 

Washington ,  I).  C. 


EXHIBIT  B. 


Victoria,  Tex.,  Januarg  12, 1880. 

Respected  Sir  :  Having  received  a  copy  of  the  proceedings  of  the  Nashville  confer¬ 
ence,  I  am  happy  to  say  that  I  am  very  much  pleased  with  its  labors.  Every  colored 
man  ought  to  have  a  copy  of  those  minutes,  as  there  is  some  very  instructive  advice 
to  be  found  in  them.  As  for  myself,  my  education  is  very  limited,  but  I  am  happy  to 
say  that  I  am  young  in  years,  and  God  is  continually  blessing  me  with  good  health 
and  excellent  brains  for  learning.  Then  ought  I  not  to  be  thankful,  and  to  trust  in 
Him  for  future  mercies f  Yes,  sir;  I  do  thank  God  for  the  past,  and  trust  Him  for  the 
future,  which  the  whole  of  our  oppressed  race  ought  to  do.  But  I  tell  you,  sir,  they 
do  not.  The  reason  I  speak  as  I  do  is  because  I  am  an  eye-witness  of  this  people,  and 
of  their  moral  and  religious  conduct. 


EXHIBIT  C. 

“folding  their  tents.” 

The  reaction  of  the  exodus  movement  on  the  part  of  the  colored  people  from  this 
State  to  Kansas  has  set  in  in  earnest,  and  every  train  coming  south  brings  some  of 
them  back.  Those  that  emigrated  were  principally  from  the  southern  counties.  Last 
evening  at  the  Union  depot  a  Herald  reporter  met  with  an  old  negro  man  named  Ed- 
umd  Burleson,  who  had  gone  with  eight  others  of  his  race  from  Burleson  County  on 
the  17th  of  November.  They  went  by  rail  to  Parsons,  where  they  found  a  large  num¬ 
ber  of  their  race  quartered  in  the  churches,  school-houses,  and  other  buildings  not 
permanently  occupied,  like  a  lot  of  sheep  huddled  together.  There  were  temporary 
structures  of  plank  not  much  larger  than  a  shed  to  which  a  large  number  of  them 
were  living.  Every  empty  house  in  the  country  was  filled  to  its  utmost.  After  pay¬ 
ing  their  railroad  fare,  with  but  few  exceptions,  none  of  them  had  any  money  left,  and 
when  the  cold  snap  came  on  their  suffering  was  terrible.  The  night  before  he  left 
Parsons  one  of  their  number  froze  to  death.  The  cold  was  intense,  and  their  clothing 
being  thin  and  their  bed  clothing  skimpy,  they  suffered  severely.  Destitute  and 
penniless,  they  have  been  forced  to  forage  on  the  surrounding  country  for  food  to  keep 
them  alive,  and  would  have  frozen  to  death  had  they  not  stolon  coal  from  the  railroad. 
Their  depredations  on  the  settlers  have  caused  an  ill-feeling  on  the  part  of  the  residents 
toward  them,  and  they  are  fast  feeling  the  effects  of  their  displeasure.  He  says  that 
it  took  cash,  and  lots  of  it,  to ‘purchase  the  bare  necessities  of  life.  The  only  thing  he 
saw  that  was  cheap  was  corn,  which  sells  at  from  ten  to  twenty-eight  cents  a  bushel. 
There  were  so  many  of  them  together  that  it  was  impossible  for  them  to  get  work  at 
any  price.  Land  rents  are  required  to  be  paid  cash  down,  and  the  rates  are  generally 
from  three  to  four  dollars  an  acre.  Lands  that  rent  at  this  price  are  without  fences 
or  houses  of  any  kind.  He  thought  the  lands  of  Texas  far  superior,  while  they  pro¬ 
duced  a  greater  variety.  “  I  would  not,  so  far  as  I  am  concerned,  give  Burleson  County 
for  the  whole  of  Kansas,”  said  the  old  man  with  much  earnestness.  They  Avish  them¬ 
selves  back,  but  the  trouble  is,  they  have  spent  all  their  money  getting  there,  and  but 
very  few  have  anything  to  get  away  on.  He  went  from  Parsons  to  Emporia,  where 
he  found  the  same  state  of  affairs  existing.  There  are  numbers  of  them  leaving  every 
day  afoot,  and  without  means,  walking  through  to  this  State  on  their  return  home. 
One  of  the  women  that  accompanied  him  was  sent  back  by  her  husband,  who  had 
barely  enough  money  to  i>ay  her  passage,  while  he  is  coming  through  afoot.  He  re¬ 
gards  the  whole  matter  as  a  political  movement  engendered  by  the  Republicans  for 
the  purpose  of  swelling  the  vote  of  Kansas.  In  his  opinion  the  seeds  of  discontent  were 
sowed  at  the  convention  held  at  Houston  in  July  last  by  the  colored  people,  by  white 
and  coloied  politicians.  The  main  instrument  in  his  county  in  gulling  his  race  into 
leaving  their  homes  was  Horace  Ruby,  a  Jim-crow  politician  and  a  school-teacher. 


432 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


The  poor,  deluded  blacks  are  awakening  to  their  true  situation,  and  are  beginning  to 
realize  that  they  have  been  inveigled  there  for  no  other  purpose  than  to  secure  their 
votes.  Parson  Duncan,  the  sable  politician  so  well  and  unfavorably  known  to  the 
blacks  of  this  city,  has  been  one  of  the  principal  agitators  in  the  movement.  He  was 
stationed  for  awhile  at  Denison  to  receive  and  rob  his  race  as  they  passed  out  of  the 
State.  He  would  take  their  money  to  purchase  their  tickets,  and  represented  invarably 
that  it  cost  more  than  it  did.  He  was  caught  up  with  and  arrested,  but  on  returning 
the  amount  he  had  stolen  he  was  set  at  liberty.  He  is  wanted  at  Parsons  for  some  of 
his  crookedness,  but  sloped,  and  has  not  yet  been  apprehended.  As  for  himself,  the 
old  man  said  that  he  was  going  back  to  Burleson  County  to  stay. — [Dallas  (Texas) 
Herald.] 


EXHIBIT  D. 

There  were  about  four  millions  of  slaves  set  free  and  turned  into  the  highways  with¬ 
out  a  place  to  lay  their  heads  or  means  of  support,  save  their  own  muscles.  They  do 
not  need  charity,  but  they  do  need  advice,  assistance,  and  opportunity  to  purchase 
and  pay  for  homes.  The  South  never  can  prosper  as  it  should  until  its  great  laud 
estates  be  divided  and  sold  to  actual  cultivators.  At  first,  very  generally,  the  owners 
of  these  were  not  disposed  to  sell  to  the  negroes.  In  many  parts  it  is  not  so  now.  At 
the  North  there  is  abundance  of  capital  seeking  investment,  and  it  does  seem  to  me 
that  the  time  is  favorable  for  a  national  organization  to  buy  these  lands  and  sell  them 
to  white  and  colored  people  on  such  terms  and  at  such  rates  as  they  can  pay  for  them, 
and  will  yield  a  reasonable  profit  to  those  who  invest  their  money  in  the  enterprise. 
Could  not  the  government  also  lend  a  helping  hand? — (Philadelphia  Times.) 


EXHIBIT  E. 

A  great  deal  of  fuss  is  being  made  nowadays  by  Democratic  papers  and  politicians, 
and  also  by  milk  and  water  Republicans,  about  the  immigration  of  colored  people  to 
this  State  from  the  South.  The  talk  about  colonization  is  the  silliest  nonsense,  mere 
moonshine.  There  is  no  need  for  colonization  societies  in  Indiana.  The  colonization 
organizations  are  at  the  other  end  of  the  line — shot-gun,  bulldozing,  rebel,  Democratic 
banditti  of  the  South. 

The  brutal  conduct  of  these  scoundrels  has  made  the  exodus  a  necessity.  The  only 
thing  political  in  this  exodus  is  the  desire  of  these  unfortunate,  down-trodden  people 
to  find  a  land  in  which  political  liberty  and  commercial  honesty  are  recognized  and 
respected.  In  Indiana,  Illinois,  Michigan,  Kansas,  and  the  great  Northwest,  they  find 
such  a  land  and  a  civilization  as  far  in  advance  of  the  barbaric  customs  of  the  South 
as  a  Christian  is  in  advance  of  a  cannibal.  The  gallant  soldier  boys  of  the  North  who 
languished  in  Southern  prisons  during  the  war  know  the  brutish  instincts  of  Southern 
rebels  and  they  know  that  the  reports  of  the  outrages  to  which  the  colored  people  are 
subjected  are  not  exaggerated.  The  exodus  will  only  stop  when  a  citizen  of  the  United 
States  is  as  free  to  express  and  vote  his  sentiments  in  North  Carolina  as  he  is  iu  In¬ 
diana. — (Iudianopolis  Leader.) 


(Refers  to  O’Hara’s  testimony.) 

Ex-judge  William  J.  Clark  has  commenced  the  publication  at  Raleigh  of  a  Republi¬ 
can  paper,  the  Signal,  and  has  the  following  to  say  on  the  present  exodus  going  on  from 
this  district  :  *  *  *  “  He  sees  the  colored  man  in  many  counties  excluded  from  the 

jury-box  because  of  hiscolor,  and  that  a  negro  accused  of  crime  is  convicted  on  half 
the  evidence  which  is  necessary  to  convict  a  white  man,  and  in  many  cases  cruel  and 
severe  punishments  inflicted  on  the  negro  who  has  been  convicted  of  some  petty 
felony.” 

Again,  in  commenting  on  Senator  Ransom’s  speech  in  Congress  on  the  exodus  inves¬ 
tigation,  the  Signal  says  : 

“We  dare  say,  the  Senator  has  never  attended  an  inferior  court  iu  Wayne  or  Lenoir 
County,  or  a  court  of  a  justice  of  the  peace  at  a  cross-roads  grocery  iu  that  section, 
since  the  election  of  magistrates  was  taken  from  the  people,  and  the  legislature  took 
to  appointing  them;  if  he  had,  he  would  not  say  that  the  negro  obtains  justice  in  facie 
curiae. 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


433 


Chapter  CXLI. 

AX  ACT  to  establish  county  governments. 

Section  1.  The  general  assembly  of  North  Carolina  do  enact ,  Every  county  is  a  body 
politic  and  corporate,  and  shall  have  the  powers  prescribed  by  statute  and  those  neces¬ 
sarily  implied  by  law,  and  no  others. 

Sec.  2.  In  each  county  there  shall  be  elected  biennially,  by  the  qualified  voters 
thereof,  as  provided  for  the  election  of  members  of  the  general  assembly,  a  treasurer, 
register  of  deeds,  and  surveyor:  Provided,  however,  That  a  majority  of  the  justices 
may  abolish  the  office  of  treasurer,  and  thereupon  the  duties  and  liabilities  now  at¬ 
tached  to  the  office  shall  devolve  upon  the  sheriff. 

Sec  3.  That  townships  heretofore  created  or  hereafter  established  shall  be  distin¬ 
guished  by  well-defined  boundaries,  and  maybe  altered  and  additional  townships  cre¬ 
ated  by  the  board  of  county  commissioners,  but  no  township  shall  have  or  exercise 
any  corporate  powers  whatever,  unless  allowed  by  act  of  general  assembly,  to  be  exer¬ 
cised  under  the  supervision  of  the  board  of  county  commissioners. 

Sec.  4.  The  justices  of  the  peace  shall  be  elected  by  the  general  assembly.  The 
general  assembly  at  its  present  session  shall  elect  three  justices  of  the  peace  for  each 
township  in  the  several  counties  of  the  State,  who  shall  be  divided  into  three  classes, 
and  hold  their  offices  for  two,  four,  and  six  years  respectively,  but  the  successors  of 
each  class,  as  its  terms  expires,  shall  be  elected  by  the  general  assembly  for  the  term 
of  six  years.  In  addition  to  the  justices  of  the  peace  above  provided  for,  there  shall 
be  elected  by  the  general  assembly,  for  each  township  in  which  any  city  or  incorpor¬ 
ated  town  is  situated,  one  justice  of  the  peace,  and  also  one  for  every  one  thousand 
inhabitants  in  such  city  or  town,  who  shall  hold  their  office  for  the  term  of  six  years. 
The  secretary  of  state  shall  certify  to  the  clerks  of  the  superior  courts  of  the  sev¬ 
eral  counties  in  the  State  a  list  of  all  justices  of  the  peace  elected,  for  their  several 
counties,  with  the  terms  for  which  they  shall  have  been  appointed,  and  this  shall  be 
their  commission,  and  the  clerk  of  their  superior  court  shall  notify  said  justices  of 
their  appointment,  who  shall  thereupon  be  entitled  to  enter  upon  the  duties  of  their 
office,  upon  taking  before  the  said  clerk  the  oath  of  office  now  prescribed  by  law  for 
justices  of  the  peace.  But  the  terms  of  those  elected  at  the  present  session  of  the  gen¬ 
eral  assembly  shall  begin  at  the  expiration  of  the  terms  for  which  the  justices  of  the 
peace  now  in  office  have  been  elected  and  not  before.  When  new  townships  shall  be 
established,  if  the  general  assembly  shall  not  be  in  session,  the  governor  shall  appoint 
the  justices  of  the  peace  therein,  and  they  shall  hold  their  office  until  the  next  meet¬ 
ing  of  the  general  assembly,  and  until  their  successors  shall  be  elected  aud  qualified. 

Sec.  5.  The  justices  of  the  peace  for  each  county,  on  the  first  Monday  in  August, 
every  two  years  thereafter,  shall  assemble  at  the  court-house  of  their  respective  coun¬ 
ties,  and,  a  majority  being  present,  shall  proceed  to  the  election  of  not  less  than  three 
nor  more  than  five  persons,  to  be  chosen  from  the  body  of  the  county  (including  the 
justices  of  the  peace),  who  shall  be  styled  the  board  of  commissioners  for  the  county, 
and  shall  hold  their  offices  for  two  years  from  the  date  of  their  qualification,  and  until 
their  successors  shall  be  elected  and  qualified.  But  those  elected  on  the  first  Monday 
in  August,  one  thousand  eight  hundred  and  seventy-eight,  shall  enter  upon  the  duties 
of  their  office  immediately  upon  the  expiration  of  the  term  for  which  the  board  of 
county  commissioners  now  in  office  have  been  elected  and  not  before.  They  shall  be 
qualified  by  taking  the  oath  of  office  before  the  clerk  of  the  superior  court  or  some 
judge  or  justice  of  the  peace,  as  now  prescribed  by  law,  and  the  register  of  deeds  shall 
be  ex  officio  clerk  of  the  board  of  commissioners  :  Provided,  however,  That  the  board  of 
commissioners  shall  not  have  power  to  levy  taxes,  to  purchase  real  property,  to  re¬ 
move  or  designate  new  sites  for  county  buildings,  to  construct  or  repair  bridges,  the 
cost  whereof  may  exceed  five  hundred  dollars,  or  to  borrow  money  for  the  county,  nor 
alter  or  make  additional  townships,  without  the  concurreuce  of  a  majority  of  the  jus¬ 
tices  of  the  peace  sitting  with  them  ;  and  for  the  purposes  embraced  in  this  proviso 
the  justices  of  the  peace  of  the  county  shall  meet  with  the  board  of  commissioners  on 
the  first  Monday  in  August,  one  thousand  eight  hundred  and  seventy-eight,  and  an¬ 
nually  Thereafter,  unless  oftener  convened  by  the  board  of  commissioners,  who  are 
hereby  empowered  to  call  together  the  justices  of  the  peace,  when  necessary,  not 
oftener  than  once  in  three  months,  but,  for  such  ser\ ices  the  justices  of  the  peace 
shall  receive  no  compensation. 

Sec.  6.  The  board  of  commissioners  so  elected  shall  have  and  exercise  the  jurisdic¬ 
tion  and  powers  vested  in  the  board  of  commissioners  now  existing,  and  also  those 
vested  in  and  exercised  by  the  board  of  trustees  of  the  several  townships,  except  as 
may  hereafter  be  prescribed  by  law ;  aud  they  shall  hold  their  sessions  as  may  be  pre¬ 
scribed  by  law. 

Sec.  7.  All  the  provisions  of  article  seven  of  the  constitution  inconsistent  with  this 
act,  except  those  contained  in  sections  seven,  nine,  aud  thirteen,  are  hereby  abrogated, 
aud  the  provisions  of  this  act  substituted  in  their  place;  subject,  however,  to  the  power 
28  EX 


434 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


of  the  general  assembly  to  alter,  amend,  or  abrogate  the  provisions  of  this  act,  and  to 
substitute  others  in  their  stead,  as  provided  for  in  section  fourteen  of  article  seven  of 
the  constitution. 

Sec.  8.  This  act  shall  be  in  force  from  and  after  its  ratification. 

Ratified  the  27th  day  of  February,  A.  D.  1877. 


Article  VII. 

Municipal  corporations. 

Section  1.  In  each  county  there  shall  be  elected  biennially  by  the  qualified  voters 
thereof,  as  provided  for  the  election  of  members  of  the  general  assembly,  the  following 
officers:  a  treasurer,  register  of  deeds,  surveyor,  and  five  commissioners. 

Sec.  2.  It  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  commissioners  to  exercise  a  general  supervision 
and  control  of  the  penal  and  charitable  institutions,  schools,  roads,  bridges,  levj’ing  of 
taxes,  and  finances  of  the  county,  as  may  be  prescribed  by  law.  The  register  of  deeds 
shall  be  ex  officio  clerk  of  the  board  of  commissioners. 

Sec.  3.  It  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  commissioners  first  elected  in  each  county  to 
divide  the  same  into  convenient  districts,  to  determine  the  boundaries  and  prescibe  the 
name  of  the  said  districts,  ami  to  report  the  same  to  the  general  assembly  before  the  first 
day  of  January,  1869. 

Sec.  4.  Upon  the  approval  of  the  reports  provided  for  in  the  foregoing  section,  by 
the  general  assembly,  the  said  districts  shall  have  corporate  powers  for  the  necessary 
purposes  of  local  government,  and  shall  be  known  as  townships. 

Sec.  5.  In  each  township  there  shall  be  biennially  elected,  by  the  qualified  voters 
thereof,  a  clerk  and  two  justices  of  the  peace,  who  shall  constitute  a  board  of  trustees, 
and  shall,  under  the  supervision  of  the  county  commissioners,  have  control  of  the  taxes 
and  finances,  roads  and  bridges  of  the  townships,  as  may  be  prescribed  by  law.  The 
general  assembly  may  provide  for  the  election  of  a  larger  number  of  justices  of  the 
peace  in  cities  and  towns,  and  in  those  townships  in  which  cities  aud  towns  are  situ¬ 
ated.  In  every  township  there  shall  also  be  biennially  elected  a  school  committee,  con¬ 
sisting  of  three  persons,  whose  duty  shall  be  prescribed  by  law. 

Sec.  6.  The  township  board  of  trustees  shall  assess  the  taxable  property  of  their 
townships  and  make  return  to  the  county  commissioners  for  revision,  as  may  be  pre¬ 
scribed  by  law.  The  clerk  shall  also  be  ex  officio  treasurer  of  the  township. 

Sec.  7.  No  county,  city,  town,  or  other  municipal  corporation  shall  contract  any 
debt,  pledge  its  faith,  or  loan  its  credit,  nor  shall  auy  tax  be  levied  or  collected  by 
any  officers  of  the  same,  except  for  the  necessary  expenses  thereof,  unless  by  a  vote  of 
a  majority  of  the  qualified  voters  therein. 

Sec.  8.  No  money  shall  be  drawn  from  any  county  or  township  treasury,  except  by 
authority  of  law. 

Sec.  9.  All  taxes  levied  by  any  county,  city,  town,  or  township  shall  be  uniform  and 
ad  valorem  upon  all  property  in  the  same,  except  property  exempted  by  this  consti¬ 
tution. 

Sec.  10.  The  county  officers  first  elected  under  the  provisions  of  this  article  shall 
enter  upon  their  duties  ten  days  after  the  approval  of  this  constitution  by  the  Con¬ 
gress  of  the  United  States. 

Sec.  11.  The  governor  shall  appoint  a  sufficient  number  of  justices  of  the  peace,  in 
each  county,  who  shall  hold  their  places  until  sections  four,  five,  and  six  of  this  article 
shall  have  been  carried  into  effect. 

Sec.  12.  All  charters,  ordinances,  and  provisions  relating  to  municipal  corporations 
shall  remain  in  force  until  legally  changed,  unless  inconsistent  with  the  provisions  of 
this  constitution. 

Sec.  13.  No  county,  city,  town,  or  municipal  corporation  shall  assume,  or  pay,  nor 
shall  any  tax  be  levied  or  collected  for  the  payuieur>  of  auy  debt,  or  the  interest  upon 
any  debt  contracted,  directly  or  indirectly,  in  aid  or  support  of  the  rebellion. 

Sec.  14.  The  general  assembly  shall  have  full  power  by  statute  to  modify,  change, 
or  abrogate  any  and  all  of  the  provisions  of  this  article,  and  substitute  others  in  their 
place,  except  sections  7,  9,  and  13. 


Chapter  CCLXXXIII. 

AN  ACT  to  amend  the  “landlord  and  tenant  act.” 

Section  1.  The  general  assembly  of  North  Carolina  do  enact,  That  when  lands  shall  be 
rented  or  leased  by  agreement,  written  or  verbal,  for  agricultural  purposes,  or  shall  be 
cultivated  by  a  cropper,  unless  otherwise  agreed  between  the  parties  to  the  lease  o 
agreement,  any  and  all  crops  raised  on  said  land  shall  be  deemed  and  held  to  be  veste 
in  possession  of  the  lessor,  or  his  assigns,  at  all  times,  until  the  rents  for  said  lan  d 
shall  be  paid,  and  until  all  the  stipulations  contained  in  the  lease  or  agreement  sh  a 


NEGRO  EXODUS  FROM  SOUTHERN  STATES. 


435 


be  performed,  or  damages  in  lieu  thereof  shall  be  paid  to  the  lessor  or  his  assigns ; 
and  until  said  party  or  his  assigns  shall  be  paid  for  all  advancements  made,  and  ex¬ 
penses  incurred  in  making  aud  saving  said  crops.  This  lien  shall  be  preferred  to  all 
other  liens,  and  the  lessor  or  his  assigns  shall  be  entitled  against  the  lessee  or  cropper, 
or  the  assigns  of  either,  who  shall  remove  the  crop  or  any  part  thereof  from  the  land 
without  the  consent  of  the  lessor  or  his  assigns,  or  against  auy  other  person  who  may 
get  possession  of  said  crop,  or  any  part  thereof,  to  the  remedies  given  in  an  action  upon 
a  claim  for  the  delivery  of  personal  property. 

Sec.  2.  That  whenever  the  lessor  or  his  assigns  shall  get  the  actual  possession  of  the 
crop,  or  any  part  thereof,  otherwise  than  by  the  mode  prescribed  in  the  preceding  sec¬ 
tion,  aud  said  lessor  or  his  assigns  shall  refuse  or  neglect,  upon  a  notice, written  or  verbal, 
of  live  days,  given  by  the  lessee  or  cropper,  or  the  assigns  of  either,  to  make  a  fair  di¬ 
vision  of  said  crop,  or  to  pay  over  to  such  lessee  or  cropper,  or  the  assigns  of  either,  such 
part  thereof  as  he  may  be  entitled  to  under  the  lease  or  agreement,  then  and  in  that  case 
the  lessee  or  cropper,  or  the  assigns  of  either,  shall  be  entitled  against  the  lessor  or  his 
assigns  to  the  remedies  given  in  action  upon  a  claim  for  the  delivery  of  personal  prop¬ 
erty,  to  recover  such  part  of  the  crop  as  he,  in  law  and  according  to  the  lease  or  agree¬ 
ment  may  be  entitled  to.  The  amount  or  quantity  of  such  crop  claimed  by  said  lessee  or 
cropper,  or  the  assigns  of  either,  together  with  a  statement  of  the  grounds  upon  which 
it  is  claimed,  shall  be  fully  set  forth  in  an  affidavit  at  the  beginning  of  the  action. 

Sec.  3.  That  where  any  controversy  shall  arise  between  the  parties  and  neither 
party  avails  himself  of  the  provisions  of  the  first  and  second  sections  of  the  act,  it 
shall  be  competent  for  either  party  to  proceed  at  once  to  have  the  matter  determined 
in  the  court  of  a  justice  of  the  peace,  if  the  amount  claimed  be  two  hundred  dollars  or 
less,  and  in  the  superior  court  of  the  county  where  the  property7  is  situated  if  the 
amount  so  claimed  shall  be  more  than  two  hundred  dollars.  But  in  case  there  shall 
be  a  continuance  or  an  appeal  from  the  justice’s  decision  to  the  superior  court,  the 
lessee  or  cropper,  or  the  assigns  of  either,  shall  be  allowed  to  retain  possession  of  said 
property  upon  his  giviog  bond  to  the  lessor  or  his  assigns,  or  the  adverse  party,  in  a 
sum  double  the  amount  of  the  claim,  if  such  claim  does  not  amount  to  more  than  the 
value  of  such  property,  otherwise  to  double  the  A7alue  of  such  property,  with  good  and 
sufficient  security,  to  be  approved  by  the  justice  of  the  peace  or  the  clerk  of  the  supe¬ 
rior  court,  conditioned  for  the  faithful  payment  to  the  adverse  party  of  such  damages 
as  he  shall  recover  in  said  action. 

Sec.  4.  That  in  case  the  lessee  or  cropper,  or  the  assigns  of  either,  shall,  at  the  time 
of  the  appeal  or  continuance  mentioned  iu  the  third  section  of  this  act,  fail  to  give 
the  bond  therein  required,  then  the  constable  or  other  lawful  officer  shall  deliver  the 
property  into  the  actual  possession  of  the  lessor  or  his  assigns,  upon  the  lessor  or  his 
assigns  giving  to  the  adverse  part}7  a  bond  in  double  the  amount  of  said  property,  to 
be  justified  as  required  in  the  third  section  aforesaid,  conditioned  for  the  forthcoming 
of  such  property,  or  the  value  thereof,  in  case  judgment  shall  be  pronounced  against 
him. 

Sec.  5.  That  in  case  neither  of  the  parties  give  the  bond  described  in  the  third  and 
fourth  sections  of  this  act,  then  and  in  that  case  it  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  justice  of 
the  peace  or  the  clerk  of  the  superior  court,  in  whichsoever  the  same  shall  be  pending, 
to  issue  an  order  to  the  constable  or  sheriff  or  other  lawful  officer,  as  the  case  may  be, 
directing  him  to  take  into  his  possession  all  of  said  property,  or  so  much  thereof  as 
shall  be  necessary  to  satisfy  the  claimant’s  demand  and  costs,  and  to  sell  the  same  un¬ 
der  the  rules  and  regulations  prescribed  by  law  for  the  sale  of  personal  property  under 
execution,  and  to  hold  the  proceeds  thereof  subject  to  the  decision  of  the  court  upon 
the  issue  or  issues  pending  between  the  parties.  That  in  all  cases  iu  the  superior  court 
arising  under  this  act  the  return  term  shall  be  the  trial  term. 

Sec.  6.  That  any  lessee  or  cropper,  or  the  assigns  of  either,  or  any  other  person,  who 
shall  remove  said  crop,  or  any  part  thereof,  from  such  land  without  the  consent  of  the 
lessor  or  his  assigns,  and  without  giving  him  or  his  agent  five  days’  notice  of  such  in¬ 
tended  removal,  and  before  satisfying  all  liens  held  by  the  lessor  or  his  assigns  on  said 
crop,  shall  be  guilty  of  a  misdemeanor. 

Sec.  7.  That  the  "provisions  of  this  act,  and  the  act  to  which  this  is  amendatory,  shall 
apply  to  all  leases  or  contracts  to  lease  turpentine  trees,  aud  the  parties  thereto  shall 
be  fully  subject  to  the  provisions  and  penalties  of  this  act. 

Sec.  8.  That  sections  thirteen,  fourteen,  and  fifteen  of  chapter  sixty-four,  of  Battle’s 
Revisal,  and  chapter  two  hundred  and  nine  of  the  laws  of  one  thousand  eight  hundred 
and  seventy-four  and  one  thousand  eight  hundred  aud  seventy-five,  and  all  laws  aud 
clauses  of  laws  in  conflict  with  the  provisions  of  this  act  are  hereby  repealed. 

Sec.  0.  That  this  act  shall  be  in  force  from  and  after  its  ratification. 

Ratified  the  12th  day  of  March,  1877. 


INDEX. 


Adams,  Joseph  (colored),  Goldsborough,  N.  C . 

Why  left  North  Carolina  and  experience  since . 

Reasons  for  the  exodus . 

Life  in  North  Carolina,  wages,  &c . 

Arnold,  F.  A.,  newspaper  publisher  of  Star,  Greencastle,  Ind.,  Democrat . 

Circulars.  &c.,  issued  by  Banner . . 

Statement  of  negroes  concerning  object  of  exodus . 

Negroes  unemployed . 

No  demand  for  laborers  of  this  class... . 

Arrington,  W.  W.  (colored),  Republican . 

Residence,  Nash  County,  North  Carolina . . 

Causes  of  negro  emigration . 

Value  of  property  held  by  negroes  in  Nash  County . 

Wages  paid  to  hands . . . 

School  advantages . 

Tenant  and  landlord  and  lien  law . 

Badger,  R.  C.,  lawyer,  office-holder  in  North  Carolina . 

Republican . . . . 

Past  and  present  condition  of  negroes  in  North  Carolina . 

Schools,  outrages,  &c . . . 

Secret  societies . 

Discrimination  between  criminals  in  color . 

Hiring  out  of  convicts . 

Changes  made  by  constitution . . 

Appointments  ot  magistrates . 

Conditions  caused  by  slavery  and  results . 

Results  on  society . . . . . 

Distinctions  between  classes  of  society . 

Prejudices  pandered  to  by  politicians . 

Elective  officers . „ . 

Conditions  caused  by  reconstruction  policy . 

Homestead  exemption . . . 

Tenants,  rights,  Ac . 

Education  better  in  North  Carolina  than  elsewhere  in  the  South . 

Negroes  improving  in  every  respect . . . 

Baker,  James  E.,  land  clerk  in  auditor’s  office,  Indianapolis . . . 

About  Heath  (negro  agent’s  statement) . 

Submitted  affidavit  of  Governor  Hendricks,  &c . 

Heath  went  to  Greencastle  iu  mail  car . 

Believes  him  to  be  honest . . . 

Bonitz,  J.  A.,  Democratic  editor  Goldsborough  Messenger,  North  Carolina . 

Census  of  the  Lenoir  County  district . 

Causes  of  exodus.  Reference  to  Perry  and  Williams . 

Condition  of  negroes  in  that  district . 

Fine  condition  of  schools — colored  and  white . 

Is  a  director  of  asylum  lor  colored  insane . 

Wages  and  method  of  farming . 

No  discrimination  between  races  in  employment  of  mechanics . 

No  discrimination  between  races  in  renting  lands . 

Prosperity  of  negroes  as  property  owners  and  laborers . 

Republican  negroes  compelled  negroes  to  vote  contrary  to  their  own 

wishes — bulldozing  Democrat  negroes . 

Equality  of  races  in  courts,  juries,  offices . . 

The  Worley  murder . 

Cases  of  trial,  citing  equality  in  dispensation  of  justice . 

Exodus  demoralizing  labor  in  his  section — reasons  for . 

Negroes  credulous  concerning  reports  from  emissaries . 

Taylor  Evans’  Emigrant  Aid  Society,  influence  of. . 

Liens  of  mechanics  and  laborers . 


Page. 

393 

394 

395 

396 
350 

350 

351 
351 
351 
251 

251 

252 

252 

253 
253 
253 

397 
39S 

398 

399 

400 
40  L 

401 

402 

402 

403 

403 

404 

404 

405 
400 
407 

407 

408 

409 
327 

327 

328 

328 

329 
133 

133 

134 
134 

134 

135 
135 

135 

136 
130 


137 

137 

138 

139 

140 

141 

141 

142 


438 


INDEX. 


Page. 


Obiect  of  taking  the  negro  to  Indiana.... . 

Article — “  Infamous  defamations” — from  Judge  Clarke’s  paper . 

Constitutional  restriction  of  suffrage  and  office  holding . 

Penalties  for  crime . 

Borden,  E.  B.,  Goldshorougli,  North  Carolina . 

Farmer  and  president  of  hank . 

Rights  and  privileges  of  negroes  and  whites  compared . 

Causes  of  exodus . . . 

Landlord  and  tenant  act;  its  operations . . . . . 

Good  feeling  between  races . 

Demoralization  of  laborers,  caused  by  exodus  . . 

Wages  and  shares,  and  collections  by  landlords  and  employers . 

Migratory  disposition  of  negroes . 

Negro  labor  preferable  to  white . . 

Effect  on  negroes  of  promises  of  homesteads  in  Indiana . 

Bowen,  Sayles  J.,  colored,  Washington,  D.  C . 

Auditor  of  Emigrant  Aid  Society  in  Washington . 

His  name  on  Wall’s  circular  without  authority . 

Did  not  know  of  the  existence  of  the  paper  announcing  his  name  as  an 

officer  of  the  association . 

Brouse,  C.  W.,  Indianapolis,  Indiana . 

Pension  agent  and  real  estate  business . 

Surplus  and  great  excess  of  skilled  labor  in  Indiana . 

Republican  in  polities,  affiliating  with  National  party . 

No  hostility  in  Indiana  to  self-supporting  immigrants . 

Buchanan,  James,  Indianapolis,  Indiana . 

Lawyer,  editor,  Greenback  National  party . 

No  demand  for  labor  in  the  State . 

Suffering,  and  want  of  employment  by  mechanics . 

Indianapolis  News  (Republican)  opposed  to  exodus . 

Greencastle  Banner  (Republican)  fostering  exodus . . . 

Democratic  and  National  papers  opposed  to  exodus,  and  why . 

No  prejudice  against  colored  people;  was  an  Abolitionist . 

Believes  the  motive  of  exodus  is  to  gain  Republican  votes . 

Improvement  in  Indiana;  no  general,  but  apparent  revival  in  business.. 

Less  wealth  now  being  produced  than  in  1876;  reasons.. . 

Negroes  in  Indianapolis  subsisting  on  charity . 

Names  of  Republicans  who  incite  the  exodus  and  their  object . 

Proportion  of  men,  women  aud  children  among  exodusters . . 

Opinion  concerning  treatment  of  negroes  in  the  South . 

Infamous  conduct  of  Republicans  in  not  protecting  negroes  in  the  South.. 

Outrage  literature  used  by  Republicans  in  the  North . 

Oarleton,  A.  B.,  lawyer,  Terre  Haute,  Indiana . 

Testimony  concerning  J.  H.  Walker  (colored) . 

Conversations  with  old  colored  citizens  concerning  immigrants ;  opinions.. 

No  demand  for  labor  in  Vigo  County . 

Immigration  of  whites  small;  emigration  of  whites . 

No  use  for  negro  laborers . 

Price  of  wages  in  his  section . 

•Chase,  W.  C.,  Washington,  D.  C . 

Was  corresponding  secretary  Walls’  Emigrant  Aid  Association . 

Walls’ unreliability  aud  practices  objected  to. . 

Political  object  of  Wall  and  others . 

Clapp,  A.  M.,  Washington,  D.  C . . . 

Editor  of  National  Republican . 

Treasurer  of  Emigrant  Aid  Society . . . 

Approves  of  affording  facilities  to  go  wherever  the  negro  chooses...  _ 

Abstract  of  account  of  receipts  and  expenditures  of  society . 

Cromwell,  J.  W. ,  colored,  Washington,  D.  C . 

Clerk  in  Treasury  Department,  Sixth  Auditor’s  office . 

Name  appended  to  Wall’s  circular  by  consent . 

Appointed  to  place  in  Treasury  from  second  Congressional  district,  Virginia 

Conference  of  colored  people  at  Nashville,  Teun . 

Was  secretary  of  the  convention,  aud  objects  of  meeting . 

Two-thirds  of  delegates  and  attendants  favored  exodus . 

Organizations  for  promoting  exodus  from  Southern  States . 

Negroes  passing  through  Washington,  number  of,  aud  reasons  for  move¬ 
ment . . . 

Where  money  came  from,  used  to  transport  exodusters . 


144 

145 

147 

148 

207 

208 
208 
208 

209,211 

209 

210 

214 

215 

216 
217 

77 

■7 ’7 

78 


78 

240 

241 

242 
242 
242 
228 
228 
228 

229 

230 
230 
230 

230 

231 

232 

233 

234 

235 

236 

238 

239 
239 

18 

18 

18 

18 

19 

19 

20 
412 

412 

413 
413 

34 

34 

35 

35 

36 
4 
4 
4 

4 

5 

5 

6 
7 

10 

11 


INDEX. 


439 


Bought  tickets  (price  of)  to  send  them  to  Indiana . 

Concerning  Perry  aud  Williams’  connection  with  movement . 

Change  of  tide  or  destinationof  exodusters  ;  reasons  . . 

Publications  concerning  destitution  among  immigrants  in  Indiana . 

Not  believed  by  colored  people  who  want  to  emigrate . 

No  political  object  in  the  movement. . . 

Letter  from  Texas  concerning  negro  convention  at  Houston . 

Letter  from  Victoria,  Texas . 

Dane,  J.  C.,  Richmond,  Va . 

Traveling  agent  Chesapeake  and  Ohio  Railroad . 

Business  to  secure  the  passage  of  emigrants  over  liis  road . 

Dickson,  Ellis,  colored,  Green  County,  North  Carolina . 

Mechanic,  mill- wright . 

Condition  of  colored  people  in  his  section . 

Causes  of  disturbance  inducing  emigration . 

Employes,  white  and  colored  at  same  wages . 

Dodd,  J.  W.,  Indianapolis . . . 

Identifies  statements  made  by  disgusted  immigrants  from  North  Carolina 

to  Indiana . . . 

Wages  of  North  Carolina  aud  'Indiana  compared . 

Suffering  and  poverty  among  the  poor  in  Indiana . 

Believes  the  movement  political;  why . 

Dukehart.  John  P.,  Baltimore,  Md. ;  business . 

Commencement  of  exodus . 

Arrangements  for  transportation  from  North  Carolina  to  Indiana  . . 

Rates  of  fare,  and  drawback  and  commissions . 

Number  of  tickets  sold . . . 

Wall’s  society  paid  ticket  agent  in  Washington . 

Agents  employed  to  get  the  emigrants  to  go . 

No  distinct  ion  of  prices  of  tickets  on  account  of  color . . . 

Influences  used  to  produce  exodus . . . 

Representations  made  concerning  what,  they  would  get  at  Washington.. . 

Looked  on  as  a  Moses  by  the  exodusters . 

Destination  of  the  negroes  . . 

In  politics,  a  Democrat . 

Proportion  of  men,  women,  and  children  in  shipments . 

East,  Hughes,  grain  dealer,  Indianapolis . 

Interview  with  Isler,  a  negro  emigrant . . . 

Affidavit  of  Isler,  disgusted  with  experience . 

Lewis  Williams’s  affidavit,  stating  the  political  object  of  the  exodus . 

Negroes  anxious  to  return  to  North  Carolina . 

No  employment  for  negroes  in  Indiana . 

Condition  of  negro  immigrants  in  Indiana . 

Importation  of  voters  from  Kentucky . 

Negroes  do  not  get  offices  in  Indiana . . 

Extracts  from  Republican  papers  fostering  exodus . 

About  raising  money  to  pay  fare  for  negroes . . 

Ellis,  Hilliard  (colored),  farmer,  Wilson  Township,  Wilson  County,  North  Car¬ 
olina . . 

Inducements  to  negroes  to  emigrate . 

Secret  societies  and  agents  employed  in  the  movement . 

Value  of  his  property  and  how  made . 

Rights  and  exercise  of  citizenship . . . 

Associations  between  races,  of  pleasant  character . 

Complaints  concerning  the  action  of  the  courts . 

Distu- barces  chiefly  caused  by  whisky . 

Fearing,  W.  G.  (colored),  laborer  in  Treasury  Department,  Washington . 

Native  of  North  Carolina . 

Succeeded  Adams  as  secretary  of  Emigrant  Aid  Society . 

Actively  engaged  in  exodus  movement;  reasons . . . . 

Believes  wages  and  school  facilities  are  better  in  Indiana  than  North  Car- 

olina . 

Justifies  the  exodus  aud  don’t  believe  it  should  stop . . 

Letters  from  Jas.  Stokes  and  A.  D.  Streight  and  Rev.  Nutt,  on  exodus _ 

Fields,  F.  B.,  La  Grange,  Lenoir  County,  North  Carolina. . 

About  negroes  who  wanted  him  to  assist  them  to  return  from  Indiana, 

stating  disappointment,  &c . . . 

Privileges  aud  freedom  in  North  Carolina . 

Perry  at  the  head  of  the  exodus  movement . 


Page. 

II,  12 
11 

13 

14 
14 
14 

430 

431 
263 

263 

264 

257 

258 

258 

259 
259 
384 

335 

386 

387 
383 

71 

72 

72 

73 

73 

74 

74 
74,75 

75 

76 

4  4 

79 

79 

79 

331 

331 

332 

333 

333 

334 

335 

336 
336 

345 

346 


254 

254 

255 
255 

255 

256 

257 
257 

93 

93 

93 

94 


94 

95 
98 

225 


226 

226 

227 


440 


INDEX. 


Page. 

Fisher,  Lewis H.  (colored),  merchant;  residence,  Kinston,  Lenoir  County  North 

Carolina .  310 

Property  owner  ;  rents  lands  to  tenants,  «&c .  310 

Born  slave;  freed  before  of  age .  310 

Made  property  since  he  became  free .  310 

Republican  in  politics .  311 

County  official,  served  as,  several  years .  .  311 

Inducements  ottered  to  negroes  to  emigrate .  311 

Circulars,  Perry,  and  other  influences .  311 

Wages, ‘kinds  of  labor  used,  &c .  311 

No  force  used  in  electioneering .  312 

Schools  for  colored  people .  312 

Negro  land  owuers,  number  of,  &c .  313 

Officers  elected  in  county .  313 

Results  of  elections,  method  of  returns,  &c .  313 

Judges  of  supreme  court,  how  elected,  &c . : . . .  314 

Pay  schools,  reasons  for  them .  314 

Groomes,  T.  C.,  lawyer,  Greencastle,  Ind .  425 

Foot-note  by  stenographer .  217 

About  Laugsdale  and  the  Banner . .  426 

Articles  from  Banner  encouraging  exodus . .  427 

Condition  of  negro  immigrants .  427 

Cost  of  getting  to  Indiana  and  away  compared .  427 

Burning  of  houses,  effect  of,  on  negroes .  428 

Negro  immigrants  dissatistied;  why . 429 

Many  unemployed .  430 

Hackney,  Leonard  G.  A.  (Democrat),  Sbelbyville,  Shelby  County,  Indiana _  264 

Lawyer,  prosecuting  attorney  of  the  16th  judicial  circuit .  264 

Arrival  of  emigrants  in  Shelby  ville., . . .  265 

Destitution;  weather;  reception .  265 

A  close  district ;  difference  of  200  in  vote . .  265 

Call  for  officers  of  law  to  prevent  incoming  of  paupers .  266 

Concerning  James  Harper  (colored),  statement  of  object  of  exodus .  266 

Concerning  the  alleged  mobbing  of  emigrants  at  Sbelbyville .  267 

Decided  opposition  by  Democrats  to  the  negro  invasion .  267 

Opposition  of  workingmen  to  influx  of  negroes . . .  267 

Republican  newspapers  and  Republicans  hostile  to  investigation .  267 

Law  of  landlords  and  tenants  in  Indiana .  267 

Penalties  for  petit  larceny  in  Indiana,  severity  of . .  268 

No  demand  for  unskilled  laborers  in  that  section .  268 

Concerning  the  vigilance  committee  at  Sbelbyville .  269 

Who  he  considers  “  hoodlums  ” .  269 

Did  not  consider  it  a  mob  or  unlawful  assemblage .  270 

Defines  his  idea  of  a  mob . : .  270 

His  visit  to  the  room  where  the  vigilants  assembled .  271 

Opinion  of  Democratic  party  concerning  object  of  the  exodus .  273 

Penalty  for  biinging  paupers  into  Indiana .  274 

Higgins,  Napoleon  (colored),  Goldsborough,  N.  C.,  farmer . . .  260 

Owner  of  property  aud  method  of  operations .  261 

Landlord  and  tenant  act;  application  to  whites  aud  colored .  261 

Poll-tax  goes  to  educational  purposes .  261 

Equality  in  dispensation  of  justice .  262 

No  discrimination  in  employment,  &c .  262 

Sat  on  juries  with  whites  ;  no  objection  on  account  of  color .  262 

Holland,  Milton  M.  (colored),  Washington,  D.  C .  277 

Obj  ect  of  Emigrant  Aid  Society .  277 

No  connection  with  any  po'itic.al  organization .  277 

No  agents  employed  to  operate  for  it .  277 

How  money  was  raised .  278 

His  complicity  with  the  political  idea  of  the  exodus .  278 

Second-class  clerk  in  Bureau  of  Internal  Revenue,  law  division .  279 

From  Columbus,  Ohio .  271V 

Inequality  of  rights  to  colored  people  in  Indiana .  279 

Hooker,  T.  E.,  Greene  County,  North  Carolina .  243 

Influences  at  work  in  the  exodus .  243 

Wages  and  labor  in  his  section .  244 

Republican  majorities  and  census  of  whites  and  blacks .  244 

No  political  persecution;  no  hostility  between  races .  244 

Kelly,  Albert  J.,  Terre  Haute,  Ind .  15(5 


INDEX. 


441 


Lawyer,  prosecuting  attorney,  Vigo  County . 

Penalties  for  crime  in  Indiana . 

Cases  cited  of  severity  of  punishment . 

Whites  and  blacks  treated  equally  before  the  law . 

Punishment  for  intermarrying  of  races . . 

No  demand  tor  laborers]  complaints  against  excess . 

Condition  of  the  exodusters  ;  poverty  and  pitiful  condition . 

Knows  J.  H.  Walker,  colored  politician,  to  be  a  fraud,  &c . 

Kelly,  John  O.,  (colored),  Raleigh,  N.  C . . . 

Livery  stable  keeper,  and  property,  how  made . 

Political  status  of  the  place  and  district . 

Relationship  of  good  feeling  between  the  races . 

No  discrimination  on  account  of  color . 

Prices  paid  for  labor  in  Wake  County . 

Educational  advantages . . 

Extract  from  County  Treasurer  Neethery’s  report . 

No  political  persecution  or  bulldozing . 

Returning-board,  and  counting  out . 

Legislature  ;  magistrates  ;  Republicans  elected . 

Punishments  of  whites  and  blacks,  in  penitentiary,  &c . 

Crimes,  who  committed  by . . 

Punishments,  by  hiring  out  to  railroads,  &c . 

How  he  pays  his  employes  ;  wages  of  whites  and  blacks . 

Koontz,  George  S.,  local  passenger  agent  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad,  Washing¬ 
ton,  D.  C . . . 

Location  of  roads  controlled  by  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad . 

The  ticket  arrangement  by  which  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad  reaches 

Indianapolis,  Ind . 

Kruzan,  G.  W.,  farmer,  Vigo  County,  Ind . 

No  demand  for  negro  labor  in  Indiana . 

Wages  and  feeling  of  old  colored  settlers . 

Number  of  immigrants  arrived  in  that  county . 

The  old  settlers’  (negroes)  condition . 

Effect  of  their  associations  with  whites . . . 

Lamb,  John  E.,  Terre  Haute,  Ind . 

Lawyer,  prosecuting  attorney  three  years  it  the  circuit  court . , 

Number  of  colored  voters  in  Vigo  County . 

Disfranchisement  and  other  punishments  for  felonies . . 

Number  of  exodus  paupers  in  Terre  Haute . 

Walker  sent  them;  who  Walker  is . . 

No  demand  among  farmers  for  unskilled  negro  laborers . 

Republicans  in  Terre  Haute  favoring  exodus . 

Poll  of  Terre  Haute  and  population . 

No  knowledge  of  threats  made  against  negroes  coming  there . 

Political  aspect  of  the  exodus . 

Laws  of  North  Carolina : 


Tage. 

156 

156 

157 

157 

158 

158 

159 

160 

244 

245 

245 
245, 247 

246 

246 

247 

248 

248 

249 

249 

250 
250 

250 

251  * 


78 

78 


78 

414 

415 

415 

416 
416 
418 
149 
149 

149 

149. 155 

150 

150. 156 

151 

152 

152 

153 

154 


Act  to  establish  county  governments . .  433 

Act  to  establish  municipal  corporations .  434 

Act  of  landlord  and  tenant .  434 

Lewman,  M.  T.,  Greencastle,  Putnam  County,  Indiana .  162 

Sheriff  of  the  county;  length  of  term .  163 

Punishments  for  larceny  and  felonies .  163 

No  demand  for  negro  laborers .  163 

Concerning  articles  urging  exodus  and  referring  to  political  objects .  164 

Knows  Warner,  who  verities  his  testimony .  165 

Concerning  Mace,  an  agent  in  the  emigrant  business .  166 

About  John  H.  Clay’s  (colored  preacher)  letter  inviting  negroes  to  Indiana.  166 

About  circular  and  conduct  of  Williams,  negro  agent  of  exodus .  167 

Circular  from  Greencastle  Banner  circulated  in  the  South .  167 

Employment  of  whites  and  laborers  in  Indiana .  168 

Farmers  oppose  the  exodus .  168 

Who  employs  the  negroes,  and  reasons  why .  168,170 

The  process  by  which  exodusters  are  now  being  introduced . .  169 

Desire  among  the  immigrants  to  return  to  North  Carolina .  169 

Interview  with  Fields,  Republican,  from  North  Carolina . , .  170 

How  he  made  acquaintance  with  Heath,  the  exodus  agent .  171 

Heath’s  explanation  of  the  objects  and  uses  of  the  exodus .  171,173 

Heath  sent  by  Holloway,  in  a  postal  car,  free .  171, 172 

Thomas’s  statement  that  money  was  provided  for  transportation .  174 


442 


INDEX. 


•  Pag  e. 

Display  and  procession  of  first  exodusters  at  Greencastle .  174 

Population  of  Putuam  County,  and  products .  174 

Objection  to  the  negroes  because  not  self-sustaining .  176 

Comparison  between  negro  and  Irish  emigrants .  177 

No  dematid  for  the  negro’s  labor .  177 

Negroes  want  to  go  back  ;  reasons  assigned .  178 

About  the  houses  burned  in  Russellville  Township . . .  178 

Threats  made  by  both  parties  against  the  paupers .  178 

Concerning  circulars  and  papers  which  he  bought .  180 

Democrats  believe  it  to  be  a  political  movement .  180 

Why  they  oppose  and  denounce  the  exodus .  180 

How  and  when  he  met  Heath  and  what  occurred .  181 

Conspiracy  to  get  the  negroes  into  the  State  to  vote .  182 

Martindale’s  connection  with  Heath .  185 

Reynolds’s,  mail  agent  at  Indianapolis,  complicity  in  the  movement .  185 

Republican  papers  do  not  denounce  the  exodus . .  185 

Belief  and  reasons  for  thinking  the  movement  a  Republican  scheme .  186 

What  Republicans  oppose  the  exodus,  and  why .  186, 188 

How  many  negroes  have  found  employment,  and  wTiere .  187 

Papers  captured  from  Heath  implicating  Holloway  aud  others .  189 

Reasons  for  securing  the  papers  as  evidence,  &c .  189 

Objections  to  paupers  coming  in  such  large  numbers  . .  190 

Loftin,F.  B.,  residence,  Kinston,  N.C .  314 

Lawyer  in  active  practice  among  criminals .  314 

No  distinctions  made  on  account  of  color .  315 

Colored  men  on  juries .  315 

More  whites  convicted  than  negroes .  315 

Exodus  affecting  farming  operations .  315 

Contracts ;  how  made  with  tenants . . .  315 

Negroes  vote  freely  ;  no  political  persecution . * . . .  315 

Negroes  ostracize  negro  Democrats ;  cases  cited . .  316 

Indiana  movement,  influence  of .  316 

Decrease  of  exodus .  316 

Business  speculation  and  political  movement .  316 

White  Republicans  in  North  Carolina  do  not  favor  it .  316 

Officers  in  county  Republicans .  316 

Perry  an  employd  of  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad .  317 

Courts  zealous-to  prevent  differences  between  races .  317 

Lowery,  Wiley  (colored),  Kinston,  Lenoir  County,  N.  C .  304 

Drayman  and  storekeeper . 304 

County  commissioner  eight  years . . . .  304 

Perry’s  speeches  and  inducements  the  cause  of  the  negroes  leaving .  304 

Secret  societies;  price  of  admission,  object,  &c .  304 

Reasons  for  exodus .  305 

Wages  paid  in  North  Carolina .  305 

Time  of  hiring  workers .  305 

Blacks  preferred  as  workmen .  305 

Election  privileges  of  negro  voters . .  305 

Negroes  on  juries .  306 

Negro  county  commissioners  and  other  officers . . . . .  306 

Equal  convictions .  306 

Education  in  all  branches  same  to  all  colors .  306 

Republican  in  politics .  306 

W as  born  free . 306 

Owner  of  property .  307 

Duties  as  county  commissioner . 307 

Republican  officials  aud  Democrats  in  the  county .  308 

Highest  court  in  State  and  its  functions .  308 

County  courts  ;  functions . .  308 

County  judges  appointed  by  legislature .  308 

School  term  aud  advantages . 309 

Colored  people  all  Republicans .  309 

No  complaints  among  colored  people . 309 

Exodus  caused  by  private  speculators .  309 

Perry  sells  bogus  tickets  ;  cases  cited .  310 

Manson,  Gen.  M.  D.,  auditor  of  State,  Indianapolis,  Ind .  337 

Served  in  Forty-second  Congress;  also  in  war .  337 

Condition  of  negro  immigrants .  337 

Concerning  the  charity  extended . 338 


INDEX. 


443 


Page. 

Constitution  of  Indiana  prohibits  colored  immigration .  338 

No  mixed  schools  in  the  State .  339 

No  laborers  of  this  kind  wanted . . .  339 

Wages  of  Indiana  and  North  Carolina  compared .  339 

Classes  of  rich  people  in  Indiana .  340 

Welcome  to  Irishmen  and  negroes  compared .  340 

Colonizing  voters  from  Kentucky .  341 

Concerning  Heath .  342 

Reasons  for  negroes  doing  better  in  North  Carolina .  343 

Curse  of  the  South,  carpet-bag  rule  .  343 

Tissue  ballots  and  elections  in  the  South .  344 

Definition  of  bulldozing .  344 

Concerning  Williams,  Republican  candidate  in  Cincinnati .  345 

Maynard,  J.  B.,  journalist,  Indianapolis .  410 

Concerning  interviews  with  immigrants .  410 

Standing  appeals  for  charity,  effects .  411 

Pauper  immigration  ;  objections  to .  411 

Republicans  and  journals  foster  exodus . .  . .  411 

Farmers  say  there  is  no  demand  for  laborers .  412 

McCroskey,  P.  H.,  builder,  Terre  Haute .  420 

Poverty  of  people  and  surplus  of  laborers . .  420 

Origin  of  colored  settlement  in  Vigo  County .  421 

Walker’s  arrangements  to  introduce  voters .  422 

Condition  of  immigrants  in  Terre  Haute .  422 

People  don’t  want  negroes  and  paupers  to  come .  423 

Mendenhall,  H.  W.,  Washington,  D.  C .  80 

First  cass,  clerk  in  Treasury  Department,  revenue  marine  service,  from  In¬ 
diana  . 80 

A  member  of  the  board  of  audit  of  Wall’s  society .  80 

Knew  the  circular  or  appeal  was  being  circulated .  81 

Never  saw  the  books  or  records  of  the  society .  81 

Knows  nothing  about  demand  for  labor  in  Indiana .  81 

Transactions  of  the  Emigrant  Aid  Association .  81 

Why  favors  the  exodus,  to  get  them  to  vote  in  Indiana . . .  83 

Republican  in  polities;  views  are  merely  personal  and  independent .  83 

Had  correspondence  on  the  subject ;  refused  to  tell  with  whom .  84 

United  States  Marshal  Dudley,  Doctor  Elbert,  and  others  held  his  views..  84 

Reference  to  Governor  Hendricks’  charges  against  the  exodus  move¬ 
ment  .  85 

How  and  when  the  movement  was  started .  85 

Concerning  the  suffering  of  the  negroes  in  Indiaua .  87 

Conversations  with  members  of  Congress  on  the  matter . . .  87 

Concerning  the  number  of  negro  voters  needed  to  carry  the  State .  87 

The  limit,  when  the  exodus  there  should  cease .  88 

Seldom  reads  Democratic  papers;  don’t  believe  all  he  sees  in  Republican 

papers .  88 

Opinion  concerning  the  southerners’  treatment  of  negroes . 

Confirmed  by  the  report  of  the  Teller  committee . . .  89 

Suffering  and  destitution  of  negroes  in  Indiana .  89 

Mills,  Thomas  P.,  Indianapolis,  Ind.  (Republican) .  201 

Wanted  20,000  bucks ,  “  buck  niggers”  in  Indiana,  now .  201 

Wants  their  Republican  votes  distributed  in  close  counties . 201,204,205 

Overdone  the  exodus,  by  too  many  women  and  children  coming .  201 

His  opinion  concerning  their  uses  as  voters,  shared  by  intelligent  Repub¬ 
licans  generally .  202 

Republican  papers  approve  the  idea  and  plan  .  202 

Martlndale’s  paper  (Indianapolis  Journal),  does  not  disapprove .  202 

About  the  money  raised  to  send  negroes  to  Greencastle .  203 

Reynolds  got  the  tickets  ;  number  and  price .  2()3 

Does  not  know  of  any  Republican  organization  to  operate  the  exodus  by 

stirring  up  discontent,  etc . .  . . .  204 

Business  interest  in  getting  tickets  ;  profit  made  off  of  Perry .  204 

Distribution  of  the  negroes;  how  and  why .  205 

Condition  of  the  exodusters  in  Indianapolis .  20(5 

His  contact  with  negroes  purely  business;  his  feeling  merely  sentimental  206 

Money  raised  used  to  help  the  destitute  .  206 

Democratic  opposition  because  of  certainty  of  negroes  voting  Republican 

ticket .  207 

Employment  of  colored  men  throws  whites  out  of  place .  207 


444 


INDEX. 


Page. 

Believes  a  colored  man  better  for  the  country  in  Indiana  than  a  Democrat  207 

Morris,  L.  C.  (Republican),  railioad  passenger  agent,  Indianapolis .  346 

Bought  tickets  for  immigrants . .  347 

How  money  was  obtained  for  tickets .  347 

Number  of  exodusters  in  Indiana .  348 

Ma  jority  unemployed .  348 

Republicans  do  not  depend  on  negroes  to  carry  the  election . .. .  349 

Morris,  Virling  K.,  Indianapolis,  Ind .  194 

Real-estate  agent  and  railroad-ticket  dealer;  a  Republican .  194 

About  interview  with  Perry  and  Williams  concerning  exodus .  195 

Got  scalp  tickets  aud  charged  two  dollars  commission  for  Perry  and  Will¬ 
iams  to  return  to  Washington .  196 

No  feeling  but  that  of  the  money  he  could  make  out  of  emigrants .  197 

Idea  of  selling  laudato  the  exodnsters  an  object  in  having  them  come .  198 

O’Hara,  James  E.  (colored),  Enfield,  Halifax  G’ouuty,  North  Carolina .  49 

Lawyer  and  Republican  official  since  1863  .  49,  65 

Contestant  for  second  Congressional  district .  49,  68 

Condition  of  the  negroes  and  whites  in  North  Carolina .  .  49 

Credit  system  a  serious  injury .  49 

Quality  of  land  and  success  of  farmers . . . .  50, 53 

Landlord  and  tenant  act ;  effects  of,  on  all .  5L 

Second  district,  place  from  which  exodus  principally  occurs .  51 

Influences  operating  to  cause  the  hegira,  euimisaries,  &c .  52 

Characteristics  of  the  negro,  credulity,  &c . .  52 

Education,  taxes,  increase  of  facilities,  asylums . . .  54 

Character  of  class  leaving  the  State . .  55 

Negro  owners  of  lands  ;  tenacity  of  their  hold .  56 

Less  prejudice  against  color  in  North  Carolina  than  in  the  North .  57 

Practice  at  the  bar,  equality  of  rights,  juries,  &c .  57 

No  true  bill  can  be  found  unless  a  colored  man  on  the  jury .  58 

Tax  laws  equal  in  operation  ou  all  persons .  59 

Election  frauds  and  system  of  counting,  <fcc .  69 

Punishment  of  crimes  equal .  60 

Social  equality  in  South .  61 

Concerning  political  proscription,  Ku-klnx,  &c .  61 

Opposition  by  colored  leaders  to  the  exodus .  63,69 

Wages  anti  employment  of  laborers  in  North  Carolina  compared  with  In¬ 
diana .  04,68 

Reference  to  Clarke’s  paper .  432 

Otey,  Charles  N.  (colored),  Washington,  D.  C .  101 

Editor  of  Argus,  teacher  in  Howard  University;  educated  in  Oberlin,0..  101 

Native  of  Raleigh,  N.  C.,  visits  home  every  year .  101 

General  Condition  of  colored  people  in  North  Carolina. .  102 

Refers  to  Mendenhall’s  speech,  to  us  negroes  as  voters  in  Indiana .  102 

Refers  to  delusions  practiced  on  his  people .  103 

Referred  to  effects  of  his  visits  and  treatment  in  North  Carolina .  103 

Opinion  of  negro  editors  and  leaders  concerning  the  outrage  of  exodus...  104 

Poverty  and  misery  of  colored  people  in  Oberlin,  compared  to  South .  104 

Comparison  of  laws  of  North  Carolina  with  those  of  other  States .  104 

Schools,  asylums,  professions,  &c .  105 

Extract  denouncing  exodus  from  People’s  Advocate  (colored  editor)  and 

Journal  of  Industry .  105 

Denunciation  of  exodus  made  by  Hon.  J.  H.  Harris  (colored) .  106 

Conference  concerning  exodus  at  Raleigh . • .  106 

A  Radical  Republican  in  politics .  108 

Negroes  in  North  Carolina  dictate  policy  of  the  Republican  party .  109 

Refers  to  article  in  National  Republican,  attacking  his  testimony .  110 

Explains  his  position  with  regard  to  his  race  and  the  party .  Ill 

Roanoke  News,  statistics  by  Jas.  E.  O.  Hira,  stating  amount  of  lands 

owned  by  negroes  in  Halifax  County .  112 

Magnitude  of  the  exodus .  115 

Grievances,  and  how  remedied  in  North  Carolina .  116 

Whipping  and  other  punishments  of  whites  aud  blacks .  117 

Disfrauctmment  laws  apply  to  both  races .  117 

Social  relations  and  good  feeling  between  races .  118 

Concerning  the  Republicans,  who  foster  the  exodus  for  political  reasons.  119 

Reference  to  accusation  against  Jim  Harris  for  defalcation .  121 

Speeches  made  by  prominent  colored  leaders  in  North  Carolina  against 

movement .  122 


INDEX.  445 

Page. 

Dissatisfaction,  causes  of,  among  colored  people  in  South .  122 

Favors  exodus,  where  there  is  cause  and  reason  for  it .  123 

No  oppression  in  North  Carolina .  124 

Reason  why  whites  are  opposed  to  the  exodus .  125 

White  and  colored  papers  and  people  in  North  Corolina  of  all  races  op¬ 
posed  to  exodus .  126 

About  those  negroes  who  located  in  Indiana .  127 

Does  not  believe  they  are  doing  as  well  in  Indiana  as  they  can  in  North 

Carolina . 128 

Educational  advantages  compared  between  Indiana  and  North  Carolina..  129 

Objects  and  constitution  of  Wall’s  Society .  130 

Abolishment  of  whipping-post  in  North  Carolina;  punishments .  130 

Convicts  in  the  penitentiary;  number  of  whites  and  blacks .  131 

Disfranchisement  for  felony .  131 

How  the  law  bears  harder  on  blacks  than  whites .  132 

No  ill  treatment  of  convicts  in  North  Carolina . „ .  132 

Perry,  Samuel  L.  (colored),  North  Carolina. .  280 

Commencement  of  the  exodus  idea  in  1872  .  280 

Causes  of  movement  in  1879 . 281 

Formation  of  colonies  to  go  from  North  Carolina .  281 

Petition  and  proclamation  with  168  names .  281 

Method  of  raising  money  to  operate  the  colony .  281 

Proposed  destination  of  colonists. .  282 

Diversion  from  original  plan . 283 

Trip  to  Indiana;  results  of  conference  there .  283 

His  services  and  line  of  operations  .  284 

Complaints  of  oppression  ;  dissatisfaction  with  laws  in  North  Carolina..  285 
A  magistrate  in  La  Grange  Vidette  in  1874,  said  “A  nigger  is  no  more  a 

human  being  than  a  horse  is  a  mule” .  286 

Expression  of  the  newspaper  press  generally .  286 

Feeling  in  the  event  of  Democratic  supremacy .  286 

Liberia  movement .  287 

No  social  equality  or  equal  rights  in  Indiana .  287 

11  Would  rather  live  in  hell  than  in  Indiana” .  287,295 

Is  a  prominent  Southern  politician .  288 

Deception  practiced  by  him  and  Williams’s  circulars .  288 

Indiana  Republicans  named  as  being  friendly  to  movement .  290 

Six  hundred  and  twenty  dollars  raised  in  Indianapolis  to  pay  fares .  290 

The  telegram  from  Ivoontz  concerning  the  money .  291 

Object  of  the  dispatch  and  understanding  concerning  it .  292 

Interview  with  Mills,  about  the  price  of  tickets  referred  to  in  Mills’s  tes¬ 
timony  on  page  204 .  292 

Arrested  in  North  Carolina  ;  why,  and  by  whom .  289,  293 

Amount  of  bonds  and  forfeiture .  293 

Concerning  politics  in  the  movement . .  293 

Troubles  between  white  and  black  Republicans  in  North  Carolina .  293 

Feeling  in  Ku-klux  times .  294 

Age;  once  a  slave;  married,  &c .  294 

About  the  dispatch  to  Tinney  concerning  $650  . . .  295 

Concerning  Morris,  scalper  ;  speculation  on  his  tickets .  296 

As  agent  acting  for  Baltimore  aud  Ohio  Railroad  ;  cheated .  297 

Concerning  schools  and  insane  asylums  in  Indiana  compared  to  North 

Carolina .  297 

Laws  in  North  Carolina  complained  of . .  297 

Concerning  complaints  of  landlord  and  tenant  act  .  298 

Negro  magistrates  aud  the  law  abolishing  them .  299 

t  tatement  in  circulars  that  slavery  will  be  established  again .  300 

Acknowledge  he  lied  to  push  the  movement  in  his  own  interest .  300 

Accusation  against  him  of  forging  school  orders .  300 

A  property  owner  ;  how  mortgaged  and  sold .  301 

Secret  meetings  ;  reasons  for .  301 

Certificates  from  whites  and  colored,  Democrats  and  Republicans,  concern¬ 
ing  his  innocence  of  forgery  . . 302 

Fifteenth  amendment  a  dead  letter . .  303 

Negroes  ceased  to  vote  because  cheated  out  of  right .  303 

Old  masters  treat  negroes  as  servants  and  not  as  citizens .  303 

Opinions  of,  on  exodus .  432 

Rankin,  J.  W.,  pastor  of  Congregational  Church,  Washington .  3 

Auditor,  by  consent  of  use  of  name,  of  board  of  Aid  Association .  3 


416 


INDEX. 


Page. 

Signed  orders  on  treasurer .  3 

Not  acquainted  with  operations  of  the  society .  4 

Never  read  the  circular  and  never  knew  of  the  use  Wall  was  making  of  it.  4 

Ray,  Scott,  Shelby viile,  Irul .  321 

Lawyer  and  editor  Shelby  Democratic  Volunteer .  321 

No  demand  for  negro  immigrants .  321,326 

Character  of  immigrants .  322 

Interview  with  Byers  in  which  the  object  of  Republican  party  declared..  322,324 

Concerning  Wright,  colored  agent .  323 

Negroes  can  exercise  rights  in  Indiana .  .  323 

About  the  alleged  mob .  324 

Number  of  negroes  to  be  used .  325 

Negro  immigration  against  the  interests  of  people .  326 

Riguey,  S.  W.,  farmer,  Vigo  County,  Indiana .  418 

No  demand  for  foreign  labor .  419 

Circular  published  by  Walker . 420 

Female  help  wanted .  420 

Ruffin,  Green  (colored),  Wilson  County,  North  Carolina .  379 

Experience  in  Indiana . ' .  379,382 

Freely  votes  Republican  ticket  every  time  in  North  Carolina .  380 

Inducements  that  took  him  to  Indiana .  380 

Comparison  between  North  Carolina  and  Iudiana .  381 

“  Going  home  to  die  there” .  383 

Russ,  Gen.  G.  W.,  adjutant-general,  Indianapolis .  352 

No  demand  for  negro  laborers .  352 

Colored  people  in  Indiana  opposed  to  exodus .  353 

Thinks  it  has  a  political  object;  why. .  354 

Charges  against  Democratic  party  of  sympathizing  with  rebellion .  355 

“Our  colored  citizens;”  article  from  Journal .  355 

Report  of  Emigrant  Aid  Society  of  Indianapolis .  355 

Republican  press  encouraging  exodus .  358 

Reference  to  Mill’s  20,000  bucks .  . . .  358 

No  property  qualification  in  Indiana .  359 

Number  arrived  in  State .  360 

Condition  of  them .  361 

Comparison  of  wages  in  Indiana  and  North  Carolina .  361 

Amount  raised  for  relief  of  negroes .  362 

Republican  sympathy .  363 

Russell,  J.  H.,  undertaker,  Indianapolis,  Ind .  317 

Causes  of  deaths,  diseases,  poverty,  &c .  318 

Democrat,  but  not  strong .  318 

No  demaud  for  labor,  idle  people,  &c .  319 

Months  of  most  mortality .  319 

Negroes  not  liked  as  laborers  in  Indiana .  320 

General  desire  among  exodusters  to  return .  320 

Republican  politicians  in  Indianapolis  and  Indiana  who  are  identified  with 

negro  exodus . 320 

Movement  hurting  the  Republican  party  ;  how .  320 

Simmons,  Mingo  (colored),  Greene  County,  North  Carolina .  371 

Experience  in  Indiana .  371 

Wages,  labor,  treatment  in  Iudiana .  372 

How  he  was  induced  to  leave  North  Carolina .  374 

Perry’s  influence  and  operations .  375 

Deceptions  by  Republicans  in  Indiana .  376 

Schools  in  North  Carolina . 377 

Poor  Republicans  in  Indiana  don’t  want  negro  immigrants .  378 

Going  home  to  North  Carolina  to  stay .  378 

Stack,  M.  W.,  chief  of  police,  Terre  Haute,  Ind .  330 

Condition;  destitution  of  negroes  there .  330 

No  demand  for  pauper  labor  in  city  or  country .  330 

Reception  of  new  comers  bv  old  settlers — negroes .  331 

Stevenson,  Win.  M.,  Dr.,  Terre  Haute .  423 

Unskilled  labor  in  excess  and  no  demand .  423 

No  necessity  for  the  exodus  to  his  vicinity .  424 

Condition,  poverty,  distress,  &c.,  of  exodusters .  424 

Walker’s  proclamation  for  laborers  a  fraud .  425 

Sypbax,  J  din  B.  (colored),  justice  of  peace,  Alexandria,  Va .  384 

Republican .  391 

Charges  against  Windom .  391 


INDEX.  447 

Tage. 

Charges  of  lunacy  made  against  each  other .  392 

Tinney,  William  B.,  Indianapolis,  Ind .  191 

Agent  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad,  at  Indianapolis .  191 

Concerning  telegram  sent  by  Koontz  about  $650  for  tickets .  192 

Parties  from  whom  collected  and  object  of  expenditure .  192 

No  personal  interest  or  politics  in  the  matter .  193 

Large  number  of  arrivals  of  negro  immigrants  in  Indiana .  194 

Reynolds,  mail  agent,  not  on  pay-roll  of  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad _  194 

Tullock,  Thomas  L.,  assistant  postmaster  Washington,  D.  C  .  1 

Auditor  of  Emigrant  Aid  Society .  1 

Never  saw  the  circular  with  his  name  appended .  1,  3 

Never  performed  duty  as  an  auditor,  or  otherwise,  in  the  society,  except  to 

sign  orders  on  treasurer .  2 

Where  money  was  derived  from .  2 

Took  no  interest  in  the  negroes ;  never  saw  them .  2 

Never  had  anything  to  do  with  the  organization  .  3 

Van  Valzer,  Robert,  Terre  Haute,  Ind .  161 

Dentist  ;  member  of  legislature  from  Vigo  County.. .  161 

Suffering  because  of  want  of  employment .  161 

Distressing  condition  of  negro  immigrants  in  Terre  Haute .  161 

Testimony  that  the  negroes  were  brought  there  to  vote  for  Republicans..  162 

Wall,  O.  S.  B.  (colored),  Washington  City,  D.  C .  2 

Identified  paper.  See  Appendix,  Exhibit  A... .  2 

Biography,  and  services  in  official  employ .  20 

Lawyer,  president  of  Emigrant  Aid  Society . .. .  21 

Organization  and  objects  of  the  association .  21 

Branch  societies,  where  operated .  22 

The  secretaries  :  “a  handsome  mulatto” . . .  22 

The  society,  “  like  the  English  government,  without  a  written  constitu¬ 
tion” . 22,23 

Plan  of  operation  of  the  society . . .  23 

Demand  for  labor  in  Indiana  . .  24 

Number  of  emigrants  sent  out  by  his  society .  25 

Disclaims  all  knowledge  “of  the  other  end  of  the  line” . . .  25 

Advantages  of  North  Carolina;  eulogy  on  it .  2G 

Evils  complained  of;  schooling,  &c .  27 

Comparison  between  North  Carolina  and  Indiana .  27 

No  political  or  social  strife  in  North  Carolina .  28 

Poverty  and  stationary  condition  of  negroes  in  North  Carolina .  29 

Vote  of  Indiana  against  permitting  negroes  to  come  into  the  State .  29 

Reference  to  circular  calling  on  negroes  “to  leave  the  South  before  the 

census-taker  uses  his  name,”  <&c .  29 

Object  to  cut  down  Congressional  representation  in  the  South . .  29 

Trausfer  of  a  large  number,  better  for  those  who  remain .  31 

Arrangements  for  railroad  transportation .  32 

Drawback  paid  by  the  Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad  on  his  emgrants .  32 

Price  of  tickets;  how  contributions  are  got  and  used . .  33 

Concerning  agents  of  the  society  operating  in  North  Carolina .  34 

Comments  on  Cromwell’s  testimony .  34 

The  society7  does  not  pay  the  way  of  those  who  return  to  North  Carolina.  •  37 

Where  the  negroes  were  sent  to  in  the  West .  25,  37 

Baltimore  and  Ohio  Railroad  carried  a  large  number  free . .  38 

Concerning  laws  in  North  Carolina,  education,  »Vc .  39 

Colored  people  bulldozing  each  other .  40,  42 

The  word  “white”  stricken  from  constitution  in  Kansas .  40 

Contributions  by  Douglass,  Ingersoll,  and  others .  41 

Douglass’s  opposition  to  exodus . . .  41 

Valley  of  the  Mississippi  the  first  field  of  operations .  41 

Employment  of  immigrants  in  Indiana .  42 

Negroes  in  North  Carolina  and  emigrants  all  Republicans .  42 

Explanation  how  O’Hara  was  counted  out  in  North  Carolina .  42,  43 

No  emigration  from  close  districts  in  North  Carolina .  43 

Philosophy  of  the  movement .  45 

Reports  to  him  from  Perry  and  Williams .  46,  48 

Letters  on  the  subject,  where  from  and  tenor  of .  48 

Copies  of  letters  from  files  of  National  Emigrant  Aid  Society' .  99 

Rev.  Heath  on  the  idea  of  leaving  before  census  is  taken .  90 

From  Scott  (an  exoduster),  Walker  (mail  agent  Terre  Haute,  Iud.),  etc  ..  91,92 

Concerning  Williams,  of  Cincinnati,  candidate  for  legislature .  345 


448 


INDEX 


Page. 

Warnock,  Mr.,  Greencastle,  Indiana .  165 

Printer  in  Banner  office .  165 

Identifies  Langsdale’s  writing  and  certain  documents .  165 

Circulars  signed  by  Rev.  J.  H.  Clay  inciting  exodus .  190 

Concerning  honor  among  printers .  190 

Woods,  W.  H.  (Republican) ;  barber;  Indianapolis .  354 

Member  of  committee  for  aiding  refugees .  364 

How  money  was  secured  for  aid .  365 

Contributions  from  Republican  office-holders .  366 

Political  object  exposed ;  how .  367 

Writes  for  colored  paper .  369 

Negro  emigrants  unemployed . 369 

Rivalry  in  emigrant  aid  societies  (funds) .  370 

Wooten,  C.  S.,  Lenoir  County,  North  Carolina . .  218 

Farmer  ;  origin  of  exodus  on  his  x^lace  ;  when .  218 

Description  of  departure  of  negroes .  218 

How  hands  are  employed  in  North  Carolina .  219 

Letters  from  old  tenants  who  want  to  get  back  from  Indiana . .  220,225 

Idea  of  negroes  being  oppressed  in  North  Carolina  a  humbug .  222,  224 

Method  of  doing  business  on  North  Carolina  plantations .  223 

Perry’s  misrepresentations  and  influence  among  negroes  in  North  Carolina  223 

Freedom  in  voting  and  other  privileges  or  rights . . .  224 

Proportion  of  men,  women,  and  children  among  the  exodusters .  225 

White  laborers  taking  the  places  of  exodusters  in  North  Carolina .  225 

Abundance  of  labor  in  North  Carolina . .  225 

c 


♦ 


